Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » Why I Believe In Annihilation
| Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #876] |
Wed, 14 November 2007 05:56  |
 Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
|
|
This is a study I did on the subject a few years ago. I will put it here in its entirety tonight. Then as time is available I will discuss it with whoever is interested.
Part 1
Saints,
Before the Assemblies can go on to perfection, they must build their faith on certain truths. One of these is Eternal Judgment.
God has a plan to rid the world of the wicked. By finding his "bottom line" we can proceed to understand this plan.
Old Testament:
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4
God says souls that sin will die. The key is to understand he means they will die for eternity. ALL people will die the NORMAL death that comes to men if they be saint or sinner.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. EZEKIEL 18:5-9
Now if God is just speaking of the normal life here it would mean that the one who obeys him would NEVER die a normal death! If he lives right he will not die. Was Ezekiel a righteous man? How about Daniel? Yet they DIED! Just as the wicked died so did the righteous. So God was looking beyond the temporal life.
New Testament:
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 8:12-13
Paul promises those who live in the flesh they will die. He promises those who walk in the Spirit they will live. Did Paul walk in the Spirit? Certainly! Did he die? Yes. But why if this was talking about the normal death? He should have continued to live because he mortified the deeds of the flesh.
But again BOTH the righteous and the wicked DIED. The way to understand both Ezekiel and Paul is to see they had ETERNITY in mind when they were inspired to write of life and death.
Paul makes this revealing statement:
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:21-23
Notice the CONTRAST in verse 23.
Those who sin DIE. Those who serve Christ have eternal life.
It does NOT say the wages of sin is eternal life in Hell.
Did Yeshua teach the DEATH of wicked souls?
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28
The soul CAN be destroyed! Yeshua said so. The context is clear. Men are not able to KILL the soul. But God is able to destroy it. Kill and destroy mean the same thing here.
This agrees with the penalty God forewarned through his prophet Ezekiel. The soul that sinneth it SHALL DIE.
The purpose of the lake of fire is to DESTROY or ANNIHILATE the souls of the wicked.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20: 13-15
God is restoring this important truth to those who have ears.
The first or NORMAL death is experienced by ALL. But those who die the SECOND DEATH will never live again. This is their punishment. IT IS ETERNAL. There is no coming back, no second chance. When they enter the lake of fire they will eventually DIE and that will last for everlasting.
|
|
| | | | |
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #881 is a reply to message #880] |
Wed, 14 November 2007 06:28  |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
|
|
Last Part
What is OUTER DARKNESS?
Has anyone noticed the phrase OUTER DARKNESS in scripture?
It is pointed out as the fate of the lost.
How can two things as different as being in a lake of fire and being in OUTER DARKNESS BOTH be the fate of the lost?
This revelation opens the eyes of our understanding to the truth of eternal judgement.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into OUTER DARKNESS:
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt.8:12
These are wells without water,clouds that are carried with a tempest,to whom THE MIST OF DARKNESS IS RESERVED FOREVER. 2 Peter2:17
Raging waves of the sea foaming out their own shame,wandering stars, to whom is reserved THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOREVER. Jude :13
What happened to the lake of fire?
Actually DARKNESS is at times used as a metaphor for DEATH.
If I wait the GRAVE IS MINE HOUSE :I have made my bed IN DARKNESS.
I have said to corruption thou art my father,to the worm thou art my mother and my sister.
And where is now my hope?as for my hope who shall see it?
They shall go down to the bars of the pit when our REST TOGETHER IS IN THE DUST. Job 17:13-16
Though WHILE HE LIVED he blessed his soul:and men will praise thee when thou doest well to thyself.
He shall go to the generation of his fathers,they SHALL NEVER SEE LIGHT. Psalms 49:18-19
His roots shall be dried up from beneath and above his branch CUT OFF.
His rememberance shall perish from the earth and he shall have no name in the street.
He shall be driven from LIGHT INTO DARKNESS and chased OUT OF THE WORLD. Job 18:16-18
So the answer is that when Yeshua,Peter,and Jude proclaim that DARKNESS AWAITS THE LOST they are speaking from the viewpoint that THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE.
They will FIRST DIE THE SECOND DEATH in the lake of fire.
Then they will pass out of existence and INTO THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOREVER.
For the wages of sin is DEATH,BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE through JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. Romans 6:23
peace and love, Mike
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #889 is a reply to message #881] |
Wed, 14 November 2007 15:09 |
Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007 |
Member |
|
|
Right on Brother... good stuff here. There is no way to rectify all of the inconsistencies of the Damnable Doctrine of Eternal Damnation.
Why would a Loving Heavenly Father throw his creations in a cosmic frying pan to be roasted for eternity? His justice? Give me a break. Our worst most cruel mass murderers are given quick, humane deaths, not tortured to death... is God any less compassionate?
In a nutshell, after the ressurection, the wicked dead will be raised, judged and condemned to death(the second death). After this judgement there will indeed be weeping, wailing and nashing of teeth when they realize they lost the chance to live forever.
[Updated on: Wed, 14 November 2007 17:23]
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #892 is a reply to message #889] |
Wed, 14 November 2007 16:52 |
Mark L
Messages: 856
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
Well I don't agree with eternal annihilation but one thing we can agree on...
the whole doctrine of the eternal punishment of the wicked (which I believe) is very very troubling. It is so awesome in its implications that it has to raise some unrest in the heart of any true xian. It certainly does in mine.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
| |
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #896 is a reply to message #895] |
Thu, 15 November 2007 01:56 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
|
|
Well to start off with: Lets try this version of Ezekiel 18:4
18:4 Indeed! All lives are mine – the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one3 who sins will die.
Looks like God is refferring to A physical death :
If you are right in what you have posted then properly stated : The Wicked die Spiritually.
Sounds a little like JDS error.
(The key is to understand , when you start off in error you end in error)
SOUL
(5315)
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Eze 18:4 Behold,2005 all3605 souls5315 are mine; as the soul5315 of the father,1 so also the soul5315 of the son1121 is mine: the soul5315 that sinneth,2398 it1931 shall die.4191
Ron
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #897 is a reply to message #896] |
Thu, 15 November 2007 06:08 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
|
|
Problems with it being mere physical death:
Old Testament:
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4
God says souls that sin will die. The key is to understand he means they will die for eternity. ALL people will die the NORMAL death that comes to men if they be saint or sinner.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. EZEKIEL 18:5-9
Now if God is just speaking of the normal life here it would mean that the one who obeys him would NEVER die a normal death! If he lives right he will not die. Was Ezekiel a righteous man? How about Daniel? Yet they DIED! Just as the wicked died so did the righteous. So God was looking beyond the temporal life.
New Testament:
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 8:12-13
Paul promises those who live in the flesh they will die. He promises those who walk in the Spirit they will live. Did Paul walk in the Spirit? Certainly! Did he die? Yes. But why if this was talking about the normal death? He should have continued to live because he mortified the deeds of the flesh.
But again BOTH the righteous and the wicked DIED. The way to understand both Ezekiel and Paul is to see they had ETERNITY in mind when they were inspired to write of life and death.
|
|
| | |
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #900 is a reply to message #896] |
Thu, 15 November 2007 11:02 |
Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007 |
Member |
|
|
| JWBTI wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 19:56 |
Well to start off with: Lets try this version of Ezekiel 18:4
18:4 Indeed! All lives are mine – the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one3 who sins will die.
Looks like God is refferring to A physical death :
If you are right in what you have posted then properly stated : The Wicked die Spiritually.
Sounds a little like JDS error.
|
The JDS error applied to Jesus dying spiritually, whereas anhilationism agrees with your usage of the Hebrew word Nephesh which describes man as a unified living being, not a spirit which can be divorced from the body.
When we die, our spirits do not go to some great Limbo or Paradise awaiting reunification with our old, rotten flesh, but we are dead and gone. This is the miracle of the ressurection... creatio ex nihilo again if you will, God raises us from nothing for the last judgement.
There is a first and second birth, and a first and second death... nothing could be plainer from the scripture.
[Updated on: Thu, 15 November 2007 11:04]
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #902 is a reply to message #900] |
Thu, 15 November 2007 14:35 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
|
|
| Derick N. wrote on Thu, 15 November 2007 05:02 |
| JWBTI wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 19:56 |
Well to start off with: Lets try this version of Ezekiel 18:4
18:4 Indeed! All lives are mine – the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one3 who sins will die.
Looks like God is refferring to A physical death :
If you are right in what you have posted then properly stated : The Wicked die Spiritually.
Sounds a little like JDS error.
|
The JDS error applied to Jesus dying spiritually, whereas anhilationism agrees with your usage of the Hebrew word Nephesh which describes man as a unified living being, not a spirit which can be divorced from the body.
When we die, our spirits do not go to some great Limbo or Paradise awaiting reunification with our old, rotten flesh, but we are dead and gone. This is the miracle of the ressurection... creatio ex nihilo again if you will, God raises us from nothing for the last judgement.
There is a first and second birth, and a first and second death... nothing could be plainer from the scripture.
|
To which I say amen.
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #912 is a reply to message #902] |
Fri, 16 November 2007 01:11 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
|
|
Eze 18:4 Behold,2005 all3605 souls5315 are mine; as the soul5315 of the father,1 so also the soul5315 of the son1121 is mine: the soul5315 that sinneth,2398 it1931 shall die.4191
18:4 Indeed! All lives are mine – the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one3 who sins will die.
Still looks like a physical death to me.
About Malachi: 4
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down6072 the wicked;7563 for3588 they shall be1961 ashes665 under8478 the soles3709 of your feet7272 in the day3117 that834 I589 shall do6213 this, saith559 the LORD3068 of hosts.6635
Only a physical body could give off ashes when burnt.
About Matt 25
MIKE : YOU SAID THAT PUNISHMENT IS DEATH
Then :Thayer & Strongs Definition must be wrong
Mat 25:46 And2532 these3778 shall go away565 into1519 everlasting166 punishment:2851 but1161 the3588 righteous1342 into1519 life2222 eternal.166
Strongs Definition:
G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.
G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2849
Citing in TDNT: 3:816, 451
EVERLASTING:
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G165
Citing in TDNT: 1:208, 31
WHAT DO WE DO WITH: LUKE 16:19-31 ?
Ron
|
|
| | | |
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #916 is a reply to message #912] |
Fri, 16 November 2007 02:48 |
Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007 |
Member |
|
|
| JWBTI wrote on Thu, 15 November 2007 19:11 |
WHAT DO WE DO WITH: LUKE 16:19-31 ?
|
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
What do we do with it? We believe it as a parable, not as a point of doctrine. It is aimed at the Pharisees, who will not believe the Lord "though one rose from the dead", and as such it is not a literal narrative.
If this passage really teaches a truth about a two-compartmented hell between death and the resurrection, then it also teaches salvation by poverty and damnation by wealth, as that is all the Rich Man and Lazarus are guilty of.
|
|
| |
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #919 is a reply to message #918] |
Fri, 16 November 2007 17:02 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
|
|
I agree with Derick about Lazarus and the rich man. Yeshua took the Pharisees belief borrowed from the Greek version of Hades and used it against THEM. It is a parable.
His own teaching about what happens when we die is seen in such verses as this:
39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-40
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28-29
The dead are not sitting around in Paradise or in Hades. They are IN THE GRAVES as said by Yeshua.
[Updated on: Fri, 16 November 2007 17:03]
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #921 is a reply to message #919] |
Fri, 16 November 2007 22:43 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
|
|
Derick said:
Well like I said, I'm not a cut and paste word technician. You can prove anything you want out of the word by hacking out a scripture hooking it up with another unrelated scripture.
Brother Derick
That was a little harsh !
I've been a little short on time & just wanted to get into this
discussion with my brothers. It has been wonderful so far.
Sorry about the cut & paste,I'll be back later....In my own words
Thanks for the insite Brothers,
Ron
Ron
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #922 is a reply to message #921] |
Sat, 17 November 2007 05:19 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
|
|
How long is forever? In the Hebrew language it can be one extreme to another.
How long was the Prophet Jonah in the fish belly?
1: Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2: And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3: For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4: Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5: The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6: I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. Jonah 2:1-6
Jonah said he was there FOREVER!
Yet how long was he there? We know Yeshua said it was three days.
3 days = forever? Yes in THAT CASE. Proving forever means whatever is meant by the author/speaker.
The disciples of Yeshua were Hebrews like he was. They thought like Hebrews. Forever to THEM was understood by context.
8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #924 is a reply to message #922] |
Sat, 17 November 2007 13:16 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
|
|
Derick said:Ref: Luke 16:19-31
What do we do with it? We believe it as a parable, not as a point of doctrine. It is aimed at the Pharisees, who will not believe the Lord "though one rose from the dead", and as such it is not a literal narrative.
If this passage really teaches a truth about a two-compartmented hell between death and the resurrection, then it also teaches salvation by poverty and damnation by wealth, as that is all the Rich Man and Lazarus are guilty of.
************************************************************ ********************************
My reply:
The Book of Ezekiel is FILLED with PARABLES & PROVERBS aimed at Israel.
( So as you say: Derick, We believe it as a parable, not as a point of doctrine", and as such it is not a literal narrative)
So to use Eze 18:4 as a point of doctrine is null & void. It was a rebuke to Israel 18:1-3 for that time an age.
That is to say , IF I follow your thoughts about it just being a fictious story used to teach truth about Gods Word:
Jesus ALWAYS spoke the Truth ! (Ref: Lk 16)
Do I understand it all....Nope !
I'am I : pro or conn ref the subject ? Looking at both sides an open to all the Truth ref Gods Word.
But if Death ends it all: (as you say.)
Lets eat ,drink an be merry: tomorrow we die.....with no real penalty for our sin !
Ron
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #925 is a reply to message #922] |
Sat, 17 November 2007 13:25 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
|
|
| Michael The Disciple wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 23:19 |
How long is forever? In the Hebrew language it can be one extreme to another.
How long was the Prophet Jonah in the fish belly?
1: Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2: And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3: For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4: Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5: The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6: I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. Jonah 2:1-6
Jonah said he was there FOREVER!
Yet how long was he there? We know Yeshua said it was three days.
3 days = forever? Yes in THAT CASE. Proving forever means whatever is meant by the author/speaker.
The disciples of Yeshua were Hebrews like he was. They thought like Hebrews. Forever to THEM was understood by context.
8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
|
Mike
I agree with you at this point ref (forever)
Ron
|
|
| | | |
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #938 is a reply to message #927] |
Mon, 19 November 2007 16:07 |
Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007 |
Member |
|
|
| Michael The Disciple wrote on Sat, 17 November 2007 08:39 |
Can anyone find where Paul mentioned burning for eternity in Gehenna?
|
The use of the description of the garbage dump outside Jerusalem in the valley of Hinnom (gehenna) is specific to Yeshua. Most others biblical authors use "Lake of Fire", "Outer Darkness', etc.
[Updated on: Mon, 19 November 2007 16:08]
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #939 is a reply to message #926] |
Mon, 19 November 2007 16:20 |
Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007 |
Member |
|
|
| Michael The Disciple wrote on Sat, 17 November 2007 08:35 |
Paul teaches us the PENALTY OF SIN as well as the reward of the righteous:
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:21-23
Some sinners may be burning in Hell a long time. Others may die right away. The end result is the same. The justice of YHWH knows how to give everyone the suffering they desrve before then.
|
Whoa Nelly. God is merciful and full of mercy. He does not wish suffering on anyone, even the worst of sinners. The weeping, wailing and knashing of teeth come from the incredible sense of loss the unredeemed feel at their knowledge of the loss of eternal life.
Nobody is going to "burn in hell" a long time, because there is no "hell" which is a Norse word not even found in scripture, but of course you meant Lake of Fire. The lake of fire is simply a way to end the lives of the unredeemed in a quick and humane(or merciful) manner.
[Updated on: Mon, 19 November 2007 16:20]
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #943 is a reply to message #939] |
Mon, 19 November 2007 18:19 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
Member |
|
|
Gentlemen,
Although I read all the posts that come through this site, I don't have a lot of time to post. As such, I post when I can.
After teaching out of Matthew this weekend, I thought I would post something Jesus said, because I TOTALLY disagree with annihilation.
When discussing the sheep and the goats, Jesus refers several times to "everlasting" when He describes "everlasting fire" and "everlasting punishment." What seals it for me is that He uses the exact same Greek word (Aionios - which means "without end") in verse 46 of Matthew 25 to describe eternal punishement and eternal life.
I don't need to be given anymore verses than that single verse, because if Jesus said it only once, that would be enough for me. If you don't believe in eternal punishment, then you can't believe in eternal life, because Jesus describes them both right here.
Like I said, there would be no other scripture that could refute this fact, because Jesus Himself said it as clear as crystal several times in this passage.
Duncan
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #945 is a reply to message #943] |
Mon, 19 November 2007 19:37 |
Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007 |
Member |
|
|
| Duncan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 12:19 |
Gentlemen,
Although I read all the posts that come through this site, I don't have a lot of time to post. As such, I post when I can.
After teaching out of Matthew this weekend, I thought I would post something Jesus said, because I TOTALLY disagree with annihilation.
|
Of course you disagree. Its what you were taught to do. Me too, until I spent a whole summer in study and prayer on little but this issue.
| Duncan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 12:19 |
When discussing the sheep and the goats, Jesus refers several times to "everlasting" when He describes "everlasting fire" and "everlasting punishment." What seals it for me is that He uses the exact same Greek word (Aionios - which means "without end") in verse 46 of Matthew 25 to describe eternal punishement and eternal life.
|
Here we go again. Is not Eternal Death a punishment when opposed to Eternal Life? It is a death "without end".
| Duncan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 12:19 |
I don't need to be given anymore verses than that single verse, because if Jesus said it only once, that would be enough for me. If you don't believe in eternal punishment, then you can't believe in eternal life, because Jesus describes them both right here.
|
You cannot see that Eternal Life is better paired with Eternal Death, than with some type of nebulous Eternal Torment?
This is another example of a brother taking a verse or two and building a theology, mostly because of what he was taught.
| Duncan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 12:19 |
Like I said, there would be no other scripture that could refute this fact, because Jesus Himself said it as clear as crystal several times in this passage.
|
It is indeed crystal clear Duncan. We all believe in Eternal Punishment here, what is at question is the nature of it. Eternal Death seems to fit the meaning of the scriptures as a diametrically proper punishment rather than being placed in a slow cooker for eternity
[Updated on: Mon, 19 November 2007 19:38]
|
|
| | | |
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #949 is a reply to message #948] |
Mon, 19 November 2007 22:09 |
 |
william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
|
|
Naturally!
Not to mention the fact that we need something to do as we await the fearful judgment that awaits us in that big Iron Bowl next week! <sigh>
[Updated on: Mon, 19 November 2007 22:10]
I want to believe!
|
|
|
| Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #954 is a reply to message #947] |
Tue, 20 November 2007 01:03 |
Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007 |
Member |
|
|
| moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 15:38 |
Duncan said:| Quote: |
My question would be - Why would Jesus describe an "eternal fire" if nobody was going to be in it? What would be the reason for calling it "eternal"? Why not just refer to the judgement as "fire"?
|
Same thing could be said about "eternal punishment", why not just say "punishment"?
|
The punishment(death) *is* forever, thats why it is said that way.
| moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 15:38 |
Someone asked, what could be so egregious as to warrant "eternal" punishment? By the same token, what within us is worthy of "eternal" life?
|
Exactly William... Eternal Life is a Gift, undeserved and unwarranted, which is why the unbelieving will cry out when they see they have not received it.
| moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 15:38 |
And what of Satan? Is he really bad enough to warrant the following pronouncement? | Quote: |
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
|
|
Here is the only valid argument for eternal torment except that the word “tormented” is the Greek basanizo, which originally meant a means of testing and examination. It was used of a touchstone for metals, and later to scourge in a general sense.
Also notice that no humans are said to be involved in this "torment", only the three, Devil, Beast and false prophet who are either systems as some believe or are supernatural.
Hebrews 2:14 says that the Devil is to be destroyed, and that word is very clear in the greek. Also clear is that Rev 20:10 may be symbolic language as is much of Revelations.
| moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 15:38 |
We don't get to determine what is "fair" and what is not! But hey, if God wants to change His mind and commute a sentence here and there, I’m sure He’ll be able to do it without contradiction to His triune nature!
|
The wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment, with no commutations or parole or time off for good behavior.
|
|
| | |
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sat Nov 16 14:20:25 UTC 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01087 seconds
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
E-mail to friend 
