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What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6910]

Tue, 02 March 2010 18:00

wishing34
Messages: 216
Registered: March 2009

Senior Member

Hi

This continues a discussion (Rant-Rave/Lakeland Revival???) elswhere on the
board but since it goes into a new direction I put it as a new topic.
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With this:(in a previous post)

Quote:

In these modern times of abundant medical imagery any ministry that
says they have had lots of signs/wonders will be able to produce many
before/after medical proofs.

I meant when the real anointed ministry comes along there will
automatically be medical confirmations available because medical
imagery is so common now days.

==============================
But you really got me thinking with your post.

In the end times we expect mucho signs/wonders - from the real
anointing of God's ministers and from the devil trying if it were
possible to decieve the elect.

So if mucho signs/wonders are coming. . .
What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders?

This is not an easy topic.
I came up with quite a few ideas
and look forward to hearing more.

Here are some ideas as to precautions w/r signs/wonders:

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1 - Fake technology

Sage mentioned photoshop - anyone could print up fake medical documents
to try to prove healings. - solution is to check out the original sources
-interview the doctors, see the original X-rays. Obviously no one has time
nor medical training to do this - it would be a great web site idea and a
service to the church if some believers with medical training would analyze
healing claims and give reports.

---- holograms could imitate real looking, solid apparitions
of Jesus or angels or other. ( maybe Rev 13?? )

---- Radio waves can put a voice into the inner ear and a person will actually
"hear" a voice in their head - They should do this to Osama Bin Ladin and say
"OSAMA !! STOP BLOWING THINGS UP" - he might think it was the voice of his god.

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2 - Sincere self deception

All that is thought to be supernatural is not.

----A totally sincere sister in the '80s , in the faith walk, felt her fingernail
on her tooth and found a hole near the gum. She confessed faith for healing of
a cavity. She began to actually feel tooth pain (was power of suggestion). She eventually
felt solid tooth in the hole and had a glorious testimony.

Years later she realized that it was not a cavity but was receding gums which had
slowly uncovered a normal edge to the tooth enamel that had mimicked a hole
in the tooth - until the gum receded far enough to reveal solid tooth beneath.
There had been no cavity, no healing - just a misunderstanding - very sincere though.

At modern day revival meetings people feel a warmth in their head and believe a
brain tumor is now dissolved. - very sincere

At meetings people , because of emotions (endorphins), feel less pain and
testify that their arthritis is cured.

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3 Diseases go into remission, placebo effect

---even terrible diseases go away in the natural about 2?? percent of the time.

False ministers with a lot of meetings will eventually have a natural remission
occur which they will claim was validation for their ministry.

The placebo effect is a real phenomena. I heard an advertisement that said
their pills helped 30 percent of the people compared to 20 percent helped by placebo.
I thought wow - one out of five people felt better just from the placebo effect.

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4 Too low threshold

Christians have an incredibly low threshhold to accept a miracle - if it is from
our people. But if it from strangers then we exercise normal skepticism.

In the recent revival meeting someone found a diamond in their Bible and all
believe it was created out of nothing by God and put there. - instead of put
there by a person.

Back in the day HEF used to say how impressed a friend was driving in fog
while the Freemans rebuked the fog as they drove on. The fog would come and
go as they drove and prayed - just like patchy fog always appears to do.
Now HEF was "our guy" so that was miraculous?? Would it get our respect if
a some random Methodist minister made that same claim?

***************************
If an alleged sign/wonder can have a possible human/science explanation
then it is not a sign/wonder.
***************************

The definition of sign/wonder means it makes a person wonder how it could
be possible and points them to the God of the Christian who experienced
the sign/wonder.

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5 - Don't believe what ministers claim to have happened - especially in remote
backwoods areas - Africa

In this current "revival" fantastic claims are made about what happened in
Africa in the past by this same minister. I will not believe the claims until
the same great signs happen with video/medical proof that can be analyzed by
experts via the web.

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6- Outright fraud is possible

There was a case decades ago where a minister would call out diseases around
the room with incredible accuracy. Then people would verify the accuracy of
that "word of knowledge" and go forward and receive prayer.
Turns out the minister's wife would talk to people in the lobby before the
meeting and gather information. Then she was in a booth with a radio telling
the false minister the info via a radio in his earpiece - "The lady in a red
dress is from Chicago and fell 2 years ago and her hip hurts." He would
fool the people as if his info came from God but it came from his wife.

When legs grow out it is possible to hold the person's heels with legs
outstretched in front of them, their hips "locked" against the back of their
chair . . . if you rotate their feet in an arch while their hips remain
not moving then the relative length of each leg appears to change or grow.
A clever con man could really make this look good.

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7 - Falling down is not a sign

People fall down a lot in revival meetings by the power of suggestion. Once
it becomes the norm then people expect it and when they feel a little light
headed in the moment they go on down - sincere but power of suggestion.

Watch and see if ministers are pushing on people.

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Of course as Sage says - regarding a ministry . . .
must glorify Christ
must be right on essential doctrine - Godhead, etc
must have Christian character (money grubbers???)
follow up Christian walk will be according the Bible

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Any further ideas appreciated - shoot down what I said or add thereto

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