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| The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1598] |
Mon, 14 April 2008 03:54  |
 jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Note: This could have gone into the "rant and rave" section, but I think that it is more appropriate in the doctrine section. This issue is one of my pet peeves with the teaching of HEF and FA in general. I look forward to reading people's responses to it.
Random House defines "denomination" this way:
1. a name or designation, esp. one for a class of things 2. a class or kind of persons or things having a specific name 3. a religious group, usually including many local churches 4. the act of naming or designating a person or thing (5. etc...)
History:
The church in America and many other places around the world was in rough shape in the 60's. Many different protestant groups had taken a defensive posture and become so fearful of anything that smacked of compromise that they could not grow and learn and be open to the moving of the Holy Spirit. There were plenty of exceptions, and there were always a few offensive-minded congregations in every evangelical denomination who rose above the status quo of the time. Some Pentecostal churches shined as lights, but even many of them were burdened by legalism, hidden immorality or showiness. Then the Lord sent a move of the Spirit so powerful that we still experience it today. The charismatic movement brought new life to a struggling church, and much angst and controversy with it as well. A lot of people got kicked out of churches or left because they wanted to function in the Holy Spirit rather than dead traditions. The people in the new churches often referred to the old churches as "denominational" because many such churches seemed to be bound by their denominational rules and traditions. Eventually, any church that was not charismatic or independent was called "denominational". The reasoning was that we don't need to form these interchurch organizations that stifle growth and revival. We are supposed to be autonomous in ourselves.
However, as has happened throughout Protestant history over the past 400 years, the independent churches and groups of churches became a denomination of sorts of their own. They might not have become an organization of churches, but their elitism and "more spiritual than thou" mentality reflected the churches that they came from. This problem has occured many, many times in church history, and Faith Assembly is but one example. Even Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century complained of all the different groups of churches that claimed to be the purest, each one believing that the others were somehow less pure than they.
FA was a denomination of sorts:
Each "denomination" has a distinctive set of doctrines and practices that defines it and sets it apart from other churches or groups of churches. Faith Assembly was no different. FA teachers planted other churches in North America and regularly taught in those churches. Usually, the teacher from FA carried greater authority in the church than any local leadership, if there was any. Worship structures were usually similar to that of FA, with music, utterance gifts and teaching from the pulpit, in that order. Tape racks made HEF's and others' sermon readily available. Church discipline was used to weed out those who would not follow the program. There was a suspicion of other churches, and denominations were often mocked. If you wanted a FA-type congregation to believe you, all you had to do was say, "The denominational churches believe such and such... we don't believe that. We believe the opposite." People did not want to do what the "Babylonish denominational system" did.
The Hypocrisy of it all:
Meanwhile, the Lord was moving mightily in some "denominational" churches, filling people with the Holy Spirit, giving them a hunger and thirst for Him, bringing them into balance. People were healed and delivered and set free from bondages. Their theology became more Christ-centered, as did their lives. However, the FA-churches were so afraid of violating their traditions or HEF's teaching (which somehow became synonymous with the Word of God) that every move of God in the mid to late 80's was met with opposition from the "deeper life brothers" (Tom Hamilton's term). The Lord brought people a fresh understanding of grace through Jerry Ervin, and he got kicked out. The Lord implored people to humble themselves and admit their extremes through Steve Hill, and people hollered that he was somehow compromising the "end-time message of faith", whatever that is. In our church in GR, a couple of women were despised because they wore jeans to a roller-skating party. Whenever change comes to a denomination, there are always people who don't want to change, no matter how Biblical the change is. Jesus said to the pharisees, "... you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition." In this case, it was the FA tradition. Thus, the hardliners who claimed to be faithful to "the message" actually became denominational pharisees. I can say that because I was one of them for a while, somewhat. I hope that the people I hurt can forgive me.
Appropriate terminology:
It is inaccurate to say, "the denominational view" or "the denominational way". There is not one "denominational" way of doing things. There is a huge diversity among protestant denominations, and none of them believe exactly the same things. Some don't believe anything. Some of them are wonderful, spirit-filled congregations who operate in the power and authority of the name of Jesus. On the other hand, I can think of some independent, nondenominational, charismatic churches that are bound by their own pride. They are so impressed by their break from the status quo that they have developed their own status quo, freely assuming the worst of other believers and churches. If you don't believe that it still happens, just read some of the posts on this forum.
Instead of referring to all non-charismatic churches as denominational, make a difference between those that are Christ-centered and Bible-based, and those that are not. Those are the true churches, and we can learn from them and have fellowship with them.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1599 is a reply to message #1598] |
Mon, 14 April 2008 15:01  |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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I guess if you want to call Faith Assembly a denomination that is fine, because really, who cares? The word of God was taught there, the worship was wonderful and the fellowship outstanding!
The pastor loved his flock, (in spite of what you may think) and taught what he believed the Lord wanted him to. It was a balanced message that exposed sin in peoples lives, taught us how to recognize errors and deceptions, taught us to be humble and walk in holiness and a multitude of other things. Contrary to what you think, people did not have an elitist mentality, that is a term people have said since Brother Freeman died. Actually quite the contrary. Faith Assembly workers had some of the best reputations for being hard workers and nice people. Now, that is not to say there weren't proud people there, as every church has them. It is called human nature, you know, people not being mature. I have run across them in denominational churches also.
Unfortunately you did not get out of Faith Assembly what I did, and as you can see with different posts others did also. You were a part of the Grand Rapids meeting, and as I have said before, that was no Faith Assembly. We did have many wonderful teachers come up and sacrifice their time to bring us the word of God, and for that I am thankful. The worship there would rival Faith Assembly and the people were very Christlike people.
Maybe you could let me know some of these churches that are going deeper with Lord and not falling for all the errors and deceptions out there. I have many friends that have left Sunshine Community Church because of the errors and deceptions that have crept in there. One friend spoke with an elder there and commented on how they were not getting fed and the response they got was feed yourself. They also inquired about if someone got healed when there was a word of knowledge for a healing of some sort. The response they got was that it didn't matter, all that mattered was that this person was ministered to. Maybe God doesn't heal by words of knowledge, but the only important thing is if someone comes up front so they can be ministered to. If people didn't go along with what some of the power ladies and ministers in the church were promoting they were shunned and criticized. Sounds familiar doesn't it? I could write pages on the deceptions in this church now, but I won't.
As far as church discipline being used to weed out the people who would not follow the program you are wrong here also. The purpose of church discipline was to see the person restored to the Lord and to the church. Because Brother Freeman did this behind closed doors, (which I am assuming your church does also)much of what was said never got out. I know people personally from Faith Assembly that were disciplined and they spoke of the kindness Brother Freeman showed them. Jae, I think your blindness to what Faith Assembly was about is really showing here. Oh I expect the typical response that I don't see what went on, but I was there much more than you, and saw things that went on. Was Faith Assembly perfect? Of course not, no church is, but there was a deeper word taught there. If people didn't like it, all they had to do was leave. Unless you were a child, you were free to go anytime you wanted, which many did, as they do in all churches. And please, spare me the typical response of fear, everyone is responsible for themselves and needs to quit blaming others.
And according to you it isn't okay to say what a denominational church believed and that Faith Assembly believed the opposite. Maybe because unlike many churched today, every wind of doctrine wasn't promoted like in todays churches. Instead of seeking the Lord for themselves they have to do Alpha, have the 40 Days of Purpose(which is nothing more than a huge marketing ploy), follow Willow Creek, have their 12 step programs, use books to preach from, instead of giving the church fresh bread.
Criticize Faith Assembly and Brother Freeman all you want, but like at your mother's church, we are willing to wait and see who is right in the end. Ten years ago I shared with my friends at Sunshine they were going down the path of deception and now it has happened. I would say the same to you Jae, I am willing to wait and see if the message the Lord gave Brother Freeman was true, which I believe it was, or if what you believe and promote is true. I guess time will tell. And as you can see, the message of faith works because it is based on the word of God and all the promises the Lord gave us to simply believe.
As far as the women who wore jeans to a skating party being despised, I find this hard to believe. Despise is a very strong word and I do not believe people from the Grand Rapids meeting "despised" them. Maybe you did, but I do not believe others did. Maybe some didn't agree with them, but despise? No, I don't believe it!
You say Steve wanted people to humble themselves and admit their extremes, but because of this he was compromising the "end time message of faith whatever that it." The end time message of faith is call the Word of God to be believed and lived. To trust Jesus with every area of your life and to glorify God in all you do, think and say (this is where confessing the word and what we are believing for comes in.) And I guess since we are in the end times you could call it the end time message of faith. If you follow what Steve got into after he left you might see where he was wrong. He was involved in the false revival out of Pensacola, Florida. The same false revival came up to First Assembly in Grand Rapids, but that is another story. Maybe Steve's discernment wasn't quite right when he said what he did. As far as Jerry is concerned I refuse to say what went on there because I am not lead to share some things for the world to hear. I think some things and some peoples names are better left off blogs like this as it could cause hurts that I would hope you wouldn't want to do.
The very thing you accuse Brother Freeman of, you do. You say he made fun of things, well you are doing the exact same thing. You say it is to correct things, well that is what he did. The difference is he was right. Give me the "faith message" anytime, compared to the compromising "if it be thy will" message. In the end we will see who is right.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1601 is a reply to message #1599] |
Tue, 15 April 2008 03:07 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Sue, it would be tempting to try to address your statements one by one, but that would be too tedious and you probably would not get the point, anyway. Plenty of people who went to Faith Assembly and related churches have same perception that I do. Many of them are more harsh than I. I try to chew the meat and spit out the bones. I don't think that you are able to identify the bones. I affirm the truth that we received there and acknowledge that HEF was anointed by the Lord earlier in his ministry. He definitely took a change in direction for the worse as time went on.
It is odd that you attack my parents' church for some reason and make sweeping comments about 40 Days of Purpose or Willow Creek. Totally irrelevant. You don't get it, do you? That's the very spirit that I am trying to expose here. But if you listen to enough of HEF's tapes, you will think that way.
At my parents' church, people do not let their babies die because the pastor taught that doctors are occultic.
I weary of hearing that HEF was loving in person even though he was harsh from the pulpit. If there is any place that a person should show love, it is from the pulpit. Mercy and truth have kissed each other. They do not preclude each other. As angry as Paul was with the Corinthians, he still came to them with gentleness and meekness. HEF was sometimes harsh and mean from the pulpit and seemed to enjoy slamming people. Once he referred to a couple that left his church as having "scrambled eggs for brains" (in Little Foxes that Spoil the Vines, I think). There was no love expressed. No tears. No life.
I would not be compelled to point out HEF's problems if I did not perceive the spirit of idolatry toward him that still persists, and the lack of willingness to admit that he strayed from the Word.
All you have to do is read some of the stories on the Tomax site to see that church discipline was abused at Faith Assembly. I was present when Bruce Kinsey was "disfellowshipped" from the church in 1984. HEF said, "...he (Bruce) told me, the pastor, that I needed deliverance. Pray for his salvation." Pray for his salvation? As if Bruce's salvation depended on his relationship with Hobart or the faith message or the church rather than his relationship with Christ. The church continued his practice of excommunication for the next 9 years as way to purge people who were not with the program.
The point of my original post on this thread is that we should quit lumping churches under the "denominational" label and try to have fellowship with anyone who is in Christ. If we can be quick to forgive HEF's mistakes, we should be quick to forgive those of other brothers and sisters and not write them off the way that you have.
In the end, we all need Jesus, and we all need forgiveness, and those who are His at His coming will all be together worshipping Him for eternity, and all of this nonsense will be forgotten.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1602 is a reply to message #1601] |
Tue, 15 April 2008 05:59 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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When people say Faith Assembly had a deeper word consider this:
Yes they did compared to most Churches of its era and even of today. But compared to the actual doctrine taught by JESUS and the Apostles it still had a ways to grow into foundation doctrine.
The way I see it the area they went beyond other Trinitarian Charismatic groups is they did baptize in Jesus name and teach the head covering. The worship was heavenly to say the least.
It stands out to this day perhaps not so much for how close to perfection it came but because it was so much more of a light than so many other groups.
Bro Freeman was right that the huge majority of Churches do almost more harm than good. Wishing it were not so, Michael
[Updated on: Tue, 15 April 2008 06:00]
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1606 is a reply to message #1598] |
Tue, 15 April 2008 17:24 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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I don’t remember how many times I have heard that statement that FA had a “Deeper Word”. It might be interesting to list off what was taught and examine the origins of it. I do not think there was anything new that Bro Freeman bought forth in content as much as in the way one should perceive it. He expressed a strength and reverence towards the written Word of God that still I haven’t found an equal today.
In the natural we all know the saying – There are 2 things you should never discuss with others, religion and politics. It always bothered me as to why this is so true. I see why this is and this is something we should all keep in mind here.
Politics: It is based on peoples opinions and functions’ on perception.
Religion: Because it has changed from the Living organism to an organization that also functions’ on the perceptions of individuals.
Bro Freeman taught the importance and put the focus on the Word of God that is lacking (non existent) today. If doctrine is to be discussed, one must relate to and hold to the Word as having the final say. BF stressed on taking the Word for what it says. Head covering, foot washing, Baptism in Jesus name, to name a few. He did do something more than that. He added and taught the use of logic in scripture I haven’t really heard about since then. That is if God has promised it, that settles it. He saw that if we look on salvation in this manner then who are we not to look on ALL scripture the same. Instead the Pharisees of our time (denominational church) focus on scriptures they like and fail to even acknowledge others unless they are forced to and they usually explain them away. That is the very reason I asked in the last thread I posted in, is James 5:14&15 a promise or is it not. If it isn’t then why bother. If it is then it holds the same weight as any of the promises for salvation. (This is the understanding Bro Freeman focused on) Also if it is a promise then for someone to not receive it they are not in FAITH and what ever is not of Faith IS Sin. Rom 14:23 This reasoning is what BF bought forth – The absolute of scripture. I can speak for myself – That if I come across any scripture that contradicts, is different or in any shape or from changes my understanding, I know that something MUST change and it will not be the WORD. If God gives us a promise or practice in scripture then who are we to reject it or attempt to explain it away? The reasoning one could use here to state it stronger or more to the point – It is one thing for an individual have an issue in understanding a scripture (promise, truth), yet that is completely opposite if one should reject the passage and attempt to explain it away. It can be said that they are no different in the rejection of the WORD as the Pharisees in the NT.
I see the denominational church as being one who has experienced the transfiguration (a truth seen or revelation) and has built their alter right there with the result being death as a living, body. They are set in what they believe and one can define them by what they believe and practice. I look at the term denominational as a mind-set. It is an organization that is set in there ways and have no intention of breaking with it.
Bro Freeman was part of and promoted the faith message along with Hagin and the rest of the faith camp until he saw the truth on JDS. One could say that he did teach a stronger message and more direct than anyone else, do to the understanding he had and the logic he used.
They all say we need Jesus and many agree on being Born Again. Yet they fail to embrace anything past that.
Why is it that there is always a - line in the sand – that restricts the growth of individuals that they will not embrace the entire Word of GOD?
Not understanding it is one thing and I believe God understands this and allows one to grow. Yet, not accepting it/making attempts to explain the Word away is no different than the Pharisees Jesus himself stood against 2000 years ago. Is not this out right rejection of Jesus???? Even though they call Him Lord??
My understanding of Denominational would not be the same as the definition supplied. It could be applied to 1 church group as well as to a group of churches.
The whole protestant movement began with Martin Luther, salvation by faith. The catholic church rejected that. Lutherans became set in their ways and rejected further change – and so forth. The rest is history. Even since the 70’s groups have broken off of others and make there stand, failing to see any other understanding to continue on deeper with the Lord. We are to judge everything using the WORD and if it based in the WORD then who are we to reject it???? Are we not setting ourselves up to be no different then the Pharisees at the time of Jesus, rejecting the Lord himself????
One might ask – Can we have fellowship with other believers in Christ who choose to reject parts of scripture – maybe, but I think one will find that the fellowship will be very shallow and limited – Unless you fellowship only on the things of this world.
To call FA a denomination – I would say YES. The growth stopped and they where very elite in their attitude towards others when it came to spiritual things and yes before 1984 this was true. A great example of that is the attitude of – Well time will tell. There is truth to that, but as believers we SHOULD be able to discuss and evaluate ALL things to the WORD. Not to argue or debate over what the Word has to say, but to realize that the truth will always win out and we must be open to the possibility that we could be wrong in our beliefs. We should in no why consider changing or conforming our beliefs according to the results we experience in this world. Yet if the experiences do not eventually conform to the Word it just could be time to start looking at the donkey that might have spoken in the past.
Many of the Denominational churches talk about God’s Love ect. Ect – They talk about and none dare to attempt to experience it. Marshmellow churches I believe it is stated in another thread. Where does one draw the line – having a form of Godliness and denying the power.
We are talking about the God that spoke this universe into existence. He gave everyone of us the breath of life. He knows the hairs of our head and has names for all the stars in the sky. It was before the foundation of the world that he ordained today to take place. What a privilege we all have to be able to see the work he has, is and preparing to do. It is through the written WORD he has chosen to reveal himself.
Who are we to deny any part of the Word.
If you study history, the church in particular, one can see how God has been slowly revealing himself. Step by step – line upon line. The biggest problem seems to be that man builds the alter unto God for what he has received and consequently cannot leave it to move on. Here in the DENOMINATIONAL mind-set.
JRS
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1618 is a reply to message #1606] |
Thu, 17 April 2008 03:14 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Some of you guys really need to get out more. You need more exposure to other Christian ministries and churches. There are plenty of churches and Christians who are not satisfied with camping out on Born Again Hill. They hunger and thirst for more of Jesus, and they walk by faith. They pour out their lives to bless others and present the gospel. Yet you make these sweeping comments like, "Most churches today don't preach the whole word" and the like. The ignorance of such statements is appalling.
Worldwide, the majority of true churches are suffering in one way or another because they put their trust in Christ (not because they preach that doctors are occult and let their children die). How can we write off these suffering churches as being shallow and apostate? Even in our materialistic American culture, there are plenty of churches that shine and love the word of God and are willing to suffer for it.
Hobart Freeman did not teach the full counsel of God nearly as much as he claimed. Sometimes he outright distorted the scriptures. Yet you claim he taught a "deeper word".
I am personally acquainted with a number of pastors and teachers who love the word of God and are willing to do whatever the Lord tells them to. They don't go about it with the same "we're better than them" mentality that I see on this forum. I resent that people call them shallow or marshmallow simply because they don't teach what Hobart Freeman did or belong to a denomination.
In 1970 Mr. Freeman gave a message at the Pentecostal Lighthouse called, "Christ's Mission is Our Commission." It was my favorite tape by him when I was a teenager. It was, and still is, a foundational teaching for me. He pointed out that our purpose as individuals and as a church is not to advance our churches or get focused on our own uniqueness. We are here to advance the kingdom of God on earth. That is the big picture. The kingdom is a big river, and the various churches are simply streams that feed into it. We must be kingdom-minded and seek to subject every part of our lives to His kingship. It is much bigger than our little corner of the earth. I really wish that HEF had stuck with that vision. FA would have been much more healthy when he died. In fact, he might even still be living today, because he might not have gone toxic had he not been so isolated from other Christian groups.
The kingdom of God is much bigger than any of us understand. He loves all of those who are truly His, which includes millions and millions of people. It is still a minority in this world, but much bigger than some posters on this forum seem to comprehend. He is advancing His kingdom, and the few Faith Assembly churches were but a small fraction of it. After He comes, when we look back on all of church history, Faith Assembly will look like a small, dysfunctional dot on the screen. It will be known as "the church that could have done much more for the kingdom" had it not become so sick.
Become kingdom-minded, and stop saying, "All the denominational churches nowadays are marshmallow." Don't you see? FA was denominational! The sweeping statements about other churches are so ignorant and proud. Some are shallow, some are not. Take the time to make a difference between them, and love all who call upon the name of the Lord. If you love the Lord and want Him to use you with power, you will love his people without making sweeping negative comments about them.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1619 is a reply to message #1602] |
Thu, 17 April 2008 03:24 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Michael the disciple said, "The way I see it the area they went beyond other Trinitarian Charismatic groups is they did baptize in Jesus name and teach the head covering."
Michael, some of the most religious, bound people I have ever met are oneness Pentecostals. It is sad. The health of a church has nothing to do with the formula it uses when baptizing or whether or not the ladies wear a head covering. Those are fringe compared to weightier matters. Minor on minors, major on majors. You are muddying the discussion when you bring in your oneness ideas. They have nothing to do with the topic at hand. It is better if you keep those ideas in the threads that you started that deal specifically with them. I will weigh in on those eventually. One of HEF's strengths was his systematic theology, and I believe that you are way off theologically.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1624 is a reply to message #1601] |
Thu, 17 April 2008 19:34 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
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Jae said a few things that I would like to respond to:
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Sue, it would be tempting to try to address your statements one by one, but that would be too tedious and you probably would not get the point, anyway. Plenty of people who went to Faith Assembly and related churches have same perception that I do. Many of them are more harsh than I. I try to chew the meat and spit out the bones. I don't think that you are able to identify the bones. I affirm the truth that we received there and acknowledge that HEF was anointed by the Lord earlier in his ministry. He definitely took a change in direction for the worse as time went on.
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Well Jae, you are probably right that I would not get your point anyways. To tell you the truth I do not base what I believe on your perception or others, but on what the Word of God says. And if people are harsh then I am sorry for them that they continue to hold onto bitterness and resentment. Blaming others for ones failures goes all the way back to the garden of Eden when everyone tried to blame someone else. Let's try to get past that and take some responsibility for ourselves. And I may not be able to identify the bones in your opinion, but I am able to eat meat without bones, such as a nice Filet Mignon which is not served with bones. I also enjoy milk with my meals. Milk and meat, sounds good to me!
And I also don't base what I believe because you affirm or reject something. I was taught to base what I believe on God's word, not someones opinion, especially when they are critical.
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It is odd that you attack my parents' church for some reason and make sweeping comments about 40 Days of Purpose or Willow Creek. Totally irrelevant. You don't get it, do you? That's the very spirit that I am trying to expose here. But if you listen to enough of HEF's tapes, you will think that way.
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Why would that be odd? And yes it is relevant in my opinion. We were talking about denominations and I was commenting on how I was willing to see who is right in the end. I used your parents church of an example of how 10 years ago I shared with some friends of the path their church was taking. Maybe you don't get it Jae, as your parents church is going deeper and deeper into deception and errors with this false apostolic, drumming, rock music so loud you need ear plugs, false personal prophecies, one pastor was sprinkling holy water, theophostics and inner healing, compromise, following Willow Creek and Rick Warren. Want me to go on? Rick Warren is into marketing the church to make it bigger, or you could call it "Consumer Christianity" as T.A. McMahon wrote about. He was very influenced by a man named Peter Drucker. Willow Creek is into the same things. It is the road to Rome and a one world church.
Richard Foster wrote Celebration of Discipline and his book introduced Catholic and occult meditative techniques to christians. Eugene Peterson wrote the popular paraphrased Bible called "The Message," which is quoted numerous times in Rich Warrens book, Forty Days of Purpose. This book is full of wrong paraphrases. Maybe you ought to find a little time to search out what some of these people are saying and believing. A couple good web sites would be: discernment-ministies.org and herescope.blogspot.com. You could also do a web search for Roger Oakland who has studied these people extensively and the way the promote the Emergent Church.
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At my parents' church, people do not let their babies die because the pastor taught that doctors are occultic.
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I am very sorry for all the people who have died at Faith Assembly, but people die at the hands of doctors constantly, as my friends mother did. First they gave her some medicine which wreaked her kidney's so she had to be on dialysis and then a few months later they gave her a new drug which caused her to go into a coma and die.
I am thankful for all the people doctors help, because they have helped my niece who has Asthma, but the point is Jae, Jesus has a better way. What will you do when you take the mark of the beast or no medical help? And don't be deceived to think God will be obligated to help you then.
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I would not be compelled to point out HEF's problems if I did not perceive the spirit of idolatry toward him that still persists, and the lack of willingness to admit that he strayed from the Word.
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Just because you perceive something doesn't mean it is correct. Try to perceive the deception's going on today and share them to help the body of Christ.
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All you have to do is read some of the stories on the Tomax site to see that church discipline was abused at Faith Assembly. I was present when Bruce Kinsey was "disfellowshipped" from the church in 1984. HEF said, "...he (Bruce) told me, the pastor, that I needed deliverance. Pray for his salvation." Pray for his salvation? As if Bruce's salvation depended on his relationship with Hobart or the faith message or the church rather than his relationship with Christ. The church continued his practice of excommunication for the next 9 years as way to purge people who were not with the program.
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Been reading Tomax site for over a year and I am well aware of some of the things people have said, but don't leave out the posts of people who were extremely blessed by the message of Brother Freeman and others. As far as Bruce is concerned I would say you are showing your pride and arrogance thinking you know everything that went on when Brother Freeman didn't even say that much so as not to make it a show. You have no idea what went on behind closed doors so stop already with your twisting of things said.
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The point of my original post on this thread is that we should quit lumping churches under the "denominational" label and try to have fellowship with anyone who is in Christ. If we can be quick to forgive HEF's mistakes, we should be quick to forgive those of other brothers and sisters and not write them off the way that you have.
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Aren't you being quite judmental of me here, Jae? So do you know my heart also as you pretend to know everyone else's? I did not know I have written people off just because I do not agree with them. You are wrong here in your judgment of me.
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In the end, we all need Jesus, and we all need forgiveness, and those who are His at His coming will all be together worshipping Him for eternity, and all of this nonsense will be forgotten.
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If it is such nonsense then why don't you just leave it alone.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1625 is a reply to message #1624] |
Fri, 18 April 2008 02:48 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Talk about bait and switch.
Sometimes it takes a while for people to gain some insight into their deception. I can see that some of you are not ready yet to admit HEF's errors and problems. No matter how much someone refutes his errors, you will still defend them and think that you see it in the Word.
Later in his ministry, Hobart Freeman taught very little of the Word. He would preach for an hour and a half and quote scripture once or twice at the most. He did little genuine expository teaching. If you can find one tape of his from 1981-84 that really expounded scripture throughout the entire sermon, send it to me and I will listen to it.
I have already pointed out some ways that he did not rightly divide the word of truth.
You don't believe that he had any bones in his teaching? You don't believe he ever preached error? That is naive and borders on delusional.
I hear people from all denominational stripes who believe that their pastor or denomination preaches the Word, and complain about all the compromisers out there. Some Pentecostals, Baptists, 7th Day Adventists, Charismatics, a number of cults all claim to preach the strong word, and they don't know anyone else who is doing so. All of them have different hang-ups and emphases and reasons why no one is preaching the Word like them. It gets to be wearisome.
If you want to overlook Hobart Freeman's errors, you need to do the same for the other ministries that you bash.
Judge a ministry by its fruit. HEF's does not look good. He left a legacy of bondage, legalism, people letting themselves or their children die unecessarily, pride, fear, disillusioned Christians and churches. Some good fruit might include a healthy theology that was needed in the charismatic world, a love for scripture, willingness to obey the truth regardless of culture's expectations and a genuine, unshowy way of worshipping the Lord. And yet a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree good fruit. So which was he?
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1626 is a reply to message #1618] |
Fri, 18 April 2008 03:26 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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(not because they preach that doctors are occult and let their children die)
Hombre said in reference to the above quote, "2. ...that statement is totally offensive, ignorant and misleading re: what Hobart taught."
What is offensive is the fact that people did die unecessarily, and yet some still justify HEF's extreme teaching or deny that he taught it. Just admit that he blew it and move on.
Hobart Freeman said in the Deeper Deliverance and Discernment series, "Take yourself through deliverance if you ever walked into a doctor's office." He stated in Comfort for Troubled Times, "No one has been disciplined, yet, for going to a doctor." Yet? What does he mean by "yet"? He often referred to going to doctors as "going to the arm of the flesh". And, of course, those who go to the arm of the flesh are cursed. He taught that since the Greek word "pharmakaia" meant sorcery, therefore pharmaceuticals were a form of sorcery (no honest Greek scholar or NT historian would ever agree with him). People let themselves or their children die because they were afraid that accessing medical science was sin. Make no mistake about it, they based that idea on Hobart Freeman's teaching. HEF could not have made it any more clearer than he did that he thought that doctors were occultic and that it was unbelief to employ their help for healing. We know the tragic result of that mentality was death, depression and incredible suffering for those who lost loved ones. I can't imagine what they went through, or the guilt that they lived with because of their choices.
For those of you who experienced such a loss, I pray that you find the healing of your spirit, forgiveness and hope in the Lord Jesus. You don't need to labor under the yoke of Hobart Freeman's teaching anymore. Find a congregation that loves one another because they love Jesus, and sit under a pastor who can help you to understand the word of God and undo the twisting that you got under "the faith message" regarding medical science. Ignore those on this web site or elsewhere who want to perpetuate the bondage. Forgive them. They do not know what they are doing.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1630 is a reply to message #1598] |
Fri, 18 April 2008 12:58 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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I agree with what you are saying, this is because of the experiences I have gone through. Yet I disagree with the conclusion you are reaching. I other words – I acknowledge the impetus for the conclusions you bring forth, yet when it comes to me basing my understanding of spiritual truths on the foundation your providing – I cannot.
I agree with what you are saying in the FA was a denomination and yet not totally. It was not a denomination unto itself. I hold that the Charismatic movement, as most of us know it, was NOT of GOD.
Please, correct me if I’m wrong here. The spiritual trend of the 60’s & 70’s was elevating the WORD and a focus on the WORD. I don’t know how many times I herd this repeated? – Prove All Things with the Word of God. If any attempted to believe the whole counsel of God and take that statement to heart and question something, they were usually not looked upon to highly. They were usually confronted with the ideas of – How dare you to come against God’s anointed, or Who are you to question the leadership that has been established in the church, and so forth. Sound familiar???? Borderline cultic tendencies I would say.
One thing that I am thankful for FA and the teachings is the understanding and application of reasoning to the scriptures.
Appling that to this situation –
I must quote jisamzed here “ The kingdom of God is much bigger than any of us understand.” SO, So, TRUE.
In this scenario there can be 2 things that could be true.
1.-What the individual is asking or pointing out or just commenting on, is error and is wrong. Then what is the problem with answering it and allowing truth to stand out? Or aren’t we stable enough in the truth of what we believe to know that there is Nothing that can stand against it??? Should we ask the question – Where is our Faith???
2.-The other side of the coin is that what is being bought up is truth and the understanding that has been bought forth is not correct. This is something one should rejoice over. That God in His mercy and Grace who loves you and desires to correct you from your errors. Or are we so fearful that by us being proven wrong that it would downgrade our image (authority)?? We speak the language of Deeper life – The question is – Are we willing to LIVE it?? – Not if one thinks of himself more highly than he ought to.
There is nobody living who has or can have a corner on the WORD. We are seeking GOD, The Creator of All things, and we are no more than earthly vessels whom HE has chosen and how soon we forget that.
FA is a denomination in that it could be defined as to what they believed and taught. It also fell into the mind-set that they had formulated what to believe and were above any correction or alternative understanding at all. Why many had a difficult time addressing issues back then was a couple of reasons.
-How any questioning of the truth was viewed.
-The teachings of the Charismatic movement and FA had bought us out of Babylon – yes the denominational church. We didn’t question it because if we were right, in our questioning, then where would we have turned – back to the denominational church????? Example I ran into – Proverbs 6:2 – This in NO way pertains to Positive confession – Must be understood with verse 1.
The framework of thinking in FA and in all denominational churches is the same. The only difference is that FA took a stand for the truth they knew and others have decided to live in Pluralism. Take note the change in the Catholic and Lutheran churches today as to when they 1st split. The Catholics today agree that salvation is by faith/grace – any will tell you that, yet they will not turn from the works they have and are required to do for salvation. So I MUST hold to my understanding of the WORD and say they are lost in their deception. The Catholics are not unique here. They speak one thing and do (believe) another. Boy does that sound ring a bell???
To say that FA and their understanding is free from error is way off base and they are deceived, blinded. It seemed that in the later years the exposition on the Word was not there. I always thought it as humorous that it was said about the denominational churches that one would hear John 3:16 every message. It sure did seem that in the later years that the messages would always refer back to Mk 11:24. I asked what the difference was???
Denominational churches – seems like the issue is – Can we really use this as a term to encompass all other besides ourselves??? Yes and NO
Characteristics –
1. Can be defined by what they believe.(teach)
2. They are set in their understanding of what they believe and are not open if a scripture should outwardly contradict them. In other words – something HAS to change, Their understanding or a verse in scripture.
3. Scripture does equates The denominational system with Babylon. – It’s identity with the world. Rev. 17
JRS
1 Cor. 1:27-29
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1632 is a reply to message #1625] |
Fri, 18 April 2008 18:35 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
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again refuting Jae's comments:
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Sometimes it takes a while for people to gain some insight into their deception. I can see that some of you are not ready yet to admit HEF's errors and problems. No matter how much someone refutes his errors, you will still defend them and think that you see it in the Word.
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It has not taken me long to have the insight to see the deception you are trying to bring forth. Just because someone does not agree with you about Brother Freeman you have a fit. I do not base what I believe on what you say! And I was wondering who died and made you judge, jury and executioner? There is nothing anyone can say to you without you constantly criticizing Brother Freeman. Your purpose on this site is not one of discussion, but one where you think you have the right to correct everyones thinking.
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Later in his ministry, Hobart Freeman taught very little of the Word. He would preach for an hour and a half and quote scripture once or twice at the most. He did little genuine expository teaching. If you can find one tape of his from 1981-84 that really expounded scripture throughout the entire sermon, send it to me and I will listen to it.
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Wouldn't waste your time to have you listen to someone you hate so much.
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I have already pointed out some ways that he did not rightly divide the word of truth.
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In your opinion. Maybe you ought to let others make their own decisions instead of trying to control them.
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You don't believe that he had any bones in his teaching? You don't believe he ever preached error? That is naive and borders on delusional.
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What I believe is between me and the Lord, I do not have to answer to you. And how Christlike and manifesting the fruits of the spirit that you are suppose to have, to say it is naive and borders on delusional. Maybe when Brother Freeman preached some of us did not take it as the letter of the law, but saw the principle behind what was spoken.
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I hear people from all denominational stripes who believe that their pastor or denomination preaches the Word, and complain about all the compromisers out there. Some Pentecostals, Baptists, 7th Day Adventists, Charismatics, a number of cults all claim to preach the strong word, and they don't know anyone else who is doing so. All of them have different hang-ups and emphases and reasons why no one is preaching the Word like them. It gets to be wearisome.
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What gets wearisome is your constant holier than thou, critical attitude.
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If you want to overlook Hobart Freeman's errors, you need to do the same for the other ministries that you bash.
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I do not bash, thank you very much.
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Judge a ministry by its fruit. HEF's does not look good. He left a legacy of bondage, legalism, people letting themselves or their children die unecessarily, pride, fear, disillusioned Christians and churches. Some good fruit might include a healthy theology that was needed in the charismatic world, a love for scripture, willingness to obey the truth regardless of culture's expectations and a genuine, unshowy way of worshipping the Lord. And yet a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree good fruit. So which was he?
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Brother Freeman was certainly a man of God who preached the word. People I know who are walking according to the Word of God are bringing forth good fruit and proving that faith in Jesus Christ and all the promises is true.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1634 is a reply to message #1625] |
Fri, 18 April 2008 22:44 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Hombre said, "Hobarts' message WAS and still IS the message of the Bible, yours is a message of delusional brotherhood for the sake of unity."
It is time to stop beating a dead horse. Hobart did not preach the word very well later in his ministry. We have to agree to disagree on that one.
There is a balance between false unity of the ecumenical movement, which focuses on unifying organizations, and that of the true unity of the spirit, which we have with all of those who are born again in Jesus.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1635 is a reply to message #1633] |
Sat, 19 April 2008 00:05 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Sue, I think that you need a vacation. You are taking this forum way too seriously. I enjoy discussing these matters with people who disagree with me, because I don't learn anything from people I already agree with. Sparks fly sometimes when iron sharpens iron. However, this has become no longer a discussion between brothers and sisters who want to understand the "faith movement", but rather a barrage of accusations about me being controlling and the like. God's people are supposed to discuss the Word in love, albeit we should call it like we see it as well.
This is apparently a highly emotionally charged topic for you, and you might not be able to discuss it rationally until your anger subsides.
I still like the discussion. It is good for people to now have the kind of dialogue that we should have been able to have 25 years ago. I like this forum, and I don't think that I have disrespected Moulder or anyone else, although some of my posts have a bite to them. Almost everyone on this site has some strong opinions. We debate with the understanding that God Himself is the ultimate truth, and He will reveal all things for what they are in the end. We will still spend eternity together with Him.
We might just need to agree to disagree and move on to another topic. We have work to do in the kingdom of God, and it is much more important than trying to defend or expose Hobart Freeman's teaching. I've said my peace, and I will let others judge whether my position or yours makes sense and is scriptural.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1636 is a reply to message #1635] |
Sat, 19 April 2008 01:44 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Jisamazed: You are so right ! Guilty as charged !
Bro Freeman did emphasize FAITH !
I, am sooooo glad he did.
Smith Wigglesworth did too !
What about John G Lake ? He did also !
What about Abraham, was Faith important to him or to God ?
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the
end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that
only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the
faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace
Seems to me that Faith is an issue here !?
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body
now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet
the deadness of Sarah's womb:
And being not weak in faith
I wonder if these are the footstep we should be walking in ? v-12
I think the problem lies in Rom 4:21.
That some are not fully persuaded:
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he
was able also to perform.
Ron
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1638 is a reply to message #1598] |
Sat, 19 April 2008 14:03 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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| jisamazed wrote on Fri, 18 April 2008 17:44 |
However, this has become no longer a discussion between brothers and sisters who want to understand the "faith movement", but rather a barrage of accusations about me being controlling and the like. God's people are supposed to discuss the Word in love, albeit we should call it like we see it as well.
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Yes – “God's people are supposed to discuss the Word in love, albeit we should call it like we see it as well.” Your statement here is SO true. Yet to be able to have a discussion of such magnitude, along with it the whole focus of the NT is reveled. MOTIVE - Have to agree with Hombre here.
| Hombre wrote on Fri, 18 April 2008 08:52 |
yours is a message of delusional brotherhood for the sake of unity.
Your error and the rest of them have been around for millenia now.
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It appears the focus is to discredit FA and elevating the Denominational way of thinking. “I’m OK- Your OK – We’re all OK, because we believe in Jesus, Jesus is Love so let us love one another..” What an offence this must be to our KING and LORD Jesus. This is a deception that he permeated Christianity in the last 40 years. Marshmellow Christianity. ---- LUKEWARM Christianity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Being a loving Christian or being a Christian that conforms for the sake of unity is as different as night is to Day. This can and does pose a problem for many and their understanding of Jesus. Yet it is what can be found in scripture. We are the Light of the world, We are in the world but not of the world, We are salt, Many are called –few are chosen, Be ye separate – for we serve a HOLY GOD.
| jisamazed wrote on Fri, 18 April 2008 17:44 |
Hombre said, "Hobarts' message WAS and still IS the message of the Bible, yours is a message of delusional brotherhood for the sake of unity."
It is time to stop beating a dead horse. Hobart did not preach the word very well later in his ministry. We have to agree to disagree on that one.
There is a balance between false unity of the ecumenical movement, which focuses on unifying organizations, and that of the true unity of the spirit, which we have with all of those who are born again in Jesus.
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Yes it is time to stop beating a dead horse.
You talk about true unity of the spirit – Being born again is only the beginning, the unity is bought about be the renewing of ones mind by the Word.
I was led to salvation – through the WORD. Not what man thought or understood. It had always been in scripture yet very few chose to embrace it as THE WORD OF GOD.
If we are to embrace this "true spirit of unity" as you stated it. Then what are we to do with the teaching (examples) of the OT that Bro Freeman labored to bring forth? Israel was called out – chosen of God – to be separate – to be GOD’s people. Yet they chose to conform and identify with the world around them. The rest is history.
JRS
John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1642 is a reply to message #1639] |
Sat, 19 April 2008 19:58 |
grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007 |
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| JRS wrote on Sat, 19 April 2008 10:36 |
| grandom wrote on Sat, 19 April 2008 08:07 |
So you see brothers and sisters,Dr Freeman faces the greater judgement
of that as a teacher but we are responsible for what we have heard and obeyed or disobeyed as the case may be.
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Well stated.
I think the desire of many is to be right with the Lord. The issues enter when one does find error in some teachings and consequently begins to question all the teachings. This should not be an issue if one is going to remain faithful to the Word and rightly discern it.
| grandom wrote on Sat, 19 April 2008 08:07 |
I know he also taught from Romans to owe no man anything and yet I wonder
how many bought homes, cars or you name it by way of the arm of the
flesh. Oh my is there more then one way to apply that passage?
How many more teachings should we go into that few have probably remained true too.
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Need to comment here – we might want to start another category here.
Some might find this comment as being a little offensive – This is a great example of using a scripture to formulate a PET doctrine.
What Paul is expounding on here is the teaching of Jesus – render to Caesar what is Caesar’s. In other words PAY THE AUTHORITIES. It is error to add to it – to borrow is sin. I could go on with examples – leases, having bills paid in advance, where are we to draw the line???
This is an excellent principal for a believer to follow and I think there much that can be drawn from it. Proverbs speaks to that.
To pull it out and use it as a doctrine against borrowing is adding to the meaning of what is being addressed here.
If we are to understand it as – against any borrowing at all – Should we judge Paul as sinning when he said he would take on any debt, and repay it, of Onesimus????? Philemon :18 & 19.
JRS
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1649 is a reply to message #1638] |
Mon, 21 April 2008 02:27 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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JRS said, "It appears the focus is to discredit FA and elevating the Denominational way of thinking. “I’m OK- Your OK – We’re all OK, because we believe in Jesus, Jesus is Love so let us love one another..” What an offence this must be to our KING and LORD Jesus. This is a deception that he permeated Christianity in the last 40 years. Marshmellow Christianity. ---- LUKEWARM Christianity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JRS, I never endorsed the 'I'm OK, you're OK' way of thinking. There is no spiritual unity between believers and nonbelievers, and unity is not organizational in nature. That kind of unity isn't really unity, anyway, because there is nothing for them to be unified about. Plenty of denominational churches do not support the false unity, either. Some do. However, HEF went the opposite extreme and isolated himself from other believers and said little about the unity that we have with them in Christ. The emphasis in the epistles is on the local church, because most of them were written to local churches or pastors. However, Jesus prayed, "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you...I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me." (John 17:20-23). True unity is in Christ by the Holy Spirit. Malcolm Webber pointed out that the only way that God's people have unity is by the Holy Spirit. If you pursue a compromising model (ecumenical movement), you have just that-- compromise. If you pursue the conformity model (such as Roman Catholicism in the middle ages) you have little freedom of thought and cannot be open to learn more from the Word. If you have the local-only model, you have isolation from other Christians who could give healthy input into your church's life. However, it is not "your church come" that we are to pray, but rather, "your kingdom come". We are to be kingdom-minded. Instead of having an "us versus them" mentality toward our brothers and sisters in Christ, we are to treat one another with humility, affirming our common faith in the Lord who bought us before we try to correct one another. "Honor all people. LOVE THE BROTHERHOOD. Fear God. Honor the King" (I Peter 2:17). What is the brotherhood? It is not just local. Peter wrote this letter to a number of churches, not just one.
By the way, JRS, I specifically used the term "unity of the spirit" on purpose rather than "spirit of unity". HEF himself made a distinction between the two phrases, and I agree with him on that matter. That is the distinction that I have been trying to express here, but you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that I am endorsing a false unity, which I am not. Avoiding false unity does not mean avoiding true unity in Christ.
HEF taught that a "spirit of unity" is wrong, and rightly so, but he did not teach the "unity of the spirit" side of it very well later in his ministry, nor did he live it. Hombre, you were not taught as well as you thought. Sadly, HEF's imbalance led to isolation from other believers and true churches, and that was his downfall.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1650 is a reply to message #1648] |
Mon, 21 April 2008 02:56 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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JRS, good post on the indebtedness matter. It always helps to read the context of a statement to understand the author's intent. Scripture was not originally divided into verses, so it is best to read several verses at a time. Romans 13:6-9 - "This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor; do not owe any anything, except to love one another, for he who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law." The point was that people need to conduct their business with integrity, paying appropriate taxes, wages to their employees, respecting respectable persons, etc... Don't get into debt over any of these matters. However, you always owe each other a love of debt. You can never pay that one off, because you are obligated to do so for the rest of your life. It's the greatest commandment. Thus is the tone and intent of the passage. If a person did not pay debts in those days, he could spend time in jail for the rest of his life or be sold into slavery. It was that risky. Nowadays, there are few legal penalties for not paying debts until someone gets into bankruptcy. There are plenty of natural consequences, as we see in the economy today. It is a huge freedom to not be in debt.
Christians should try to stay out of debt as much as possible. We must be content with what we have and trust the Lord to supply our needs. Dave Ramsey has gained a huge following by simply applying the Biblical teaching on debt. However, this passage and others are not intended to be a legalistic, "never take out a mortgage" kind of rule. There may be circumstances in which it is appropriate, and we need to pray about what the Lord might have us to do in those circumstances.
[Updated on: Mon, 21 April 2008 02:58]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1651 is a reply to message #1636] |
Mon, 21 April 2008 03:12 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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JWBTI said, "Jisamazed: You are so right ! Guilty as charged !
Bro Freeman did emphasize FAITH !
I, am sooooo glad he did.
Smith Wigglesworth did too !
What about John G Lake ? He did also !
What about Abraham, was Faith important to him or to God ?"
Emphasizing faith in God is one thing. Any Christian needs to recognize that it is impossible to please God without it, and everything that we do and believe to be true starts with faith. However, HEF seemed to teach a passive faith, especially in regards to healing. Faith works by love, and without works it is dead. Passive faith is dead faith. If we take action because we believe, it is evidence that our faith is alive. Faith in the twisted way that Hobart Freeman taught it was too passive, hence the "doctors = unbelief" mentality, and the tragedy that accompanied it.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1653 is a reply to message #1651] |
Mon, 21 April 2008 13:20 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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HI Jae,
You said you think I need a vacation, and I couldn't agree more, except my mother broke her leg/hip and I can't get away right now because I am taking care of her.
As far as not being able to talk about this topic rationally until my anger subsides, again I disagree with you. I have a very critical family member and I hate it when someone is constantly trying to criticize and defame someone as you do Dr. Freeman, so I am sure my disgust with your criticism comes out in how I have said things. Every chance you get, you try to get a dig in about what you think about Brother Freeman. The man wasn't perfect as his critics make him out to be. I have commented to a friend that it is interesting how people that hate Brother Freeman are the ones who took what he said on par with scripture. Some people did not do this, therefore they checked out what he said in the Word of God and base their faith on the promises, which Brother Freeman constantly exhorted the church to do. Brother Freeman said not to take anything he said, wrote, or prophecies at Faith Assembly on par with scripture, as they most certainly were not.
People who believe in divine healing base their beliefs on the multitude of promises in the Bible. And as Brother Freeman taught there are conditions to meet, such as if you don't take care of the temple, your body, God is not obligated to heal you even if you claimed it. If you listen to all Brother Freeman said and not just pick out a phrase here and there, then you would see it is a balanced message. I think where some of the problems come in is where people took what he said in a legalistic way, which many did not. You see this in all churches, not just Faith Assembly. Like one minister(not Dr. Freeman) said once: "We're all little Jews and Catholics at heart and just want a set of rules to follow." This is where many were wrong, in taking what he said as a rule, and not a principle. Jae, not everyone did this.
It would be nice if you would discuss the issues with the Word, instead of trying to criticize Faith Assembly and Brother Freeman every chance you get.
As far as the passive faith comment, Brother Freeman taught to act on your faith, as I would not call that passive faith. Faith has corresponding actions. One time I saw you criticized Brother Freeman for talking about his radio with tubes, and said it was pride that he talked about that. I personally found it interesting as it brought back alot of memories. Now, if Brother Freeman would talk about all the money he gave away or the ways he would bless people you would also call it pride and boasting. You can't have it both ways. Brother Freeman taught the church to be generous and to give and to minister to each other and do good to all men.
We certainly disagree on Brother Freeman and Faith Assembly, but as I have told a friend of mine, Jae loves the Lord and I do appreciate you as a brother in Christ. Hopefully someday there will be another fellowship and I will have the opportunity to see you again.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1655 is a reply to message #1652] |
Mon, 21 April 2008 18:09 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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| JRS wrote on Mon, 21 April 2008 07:43 |
jisamazed – maybe we are jumping to conclusions here. Maybe the issue really is a lack of understanding of what you are actually saying.
If you would answer a few questions for me to define it better.
What you are saying – FA or any other local body should not look to themselves as being exclusive, - and they should
1. Freely fellowship, no matter the Denomination as long as they acknowledge Jesus in there lives. – Attend their church.
2. Or we are to seek out fellowship with individuals from other denominations (same condition as above) and we should be able to have fellowship over spiritual matters.
3. Or #2 above and we should converse and fellowship with them on – their level and be loving towards them.
Or if there is another scenario, please explain and help me understand here.
JRS
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I'm not sure of the difference between #1 and #2, but #1 sounds pretty close to what I'm saying. Fellowship is not something we do as much as it is something that we already have with other believers in Christ. I John 1:5-7 says, "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Based on how John continued that theme in chapter 2, vs.9-11, I can safely say that "one another" is referring to us believers. We have fellowship with everyone who is walking in the light of Christ, and we have fellowship with God. In Christ no person is above another so as to exclude fellowship. Therefore, it does not matter what organization or denomination the believer is a part of. We can learn from them and they from us. I like to see churches of different traditions interacting, working together to proclaim the gospel or serve the poor. The tend to learn from each other and demonstrate the kingdom of God that way. I'm not talking about doctrinally liberal churches that do not believe that the Bible is God's word or that Jesus is God and the only way to heaven. I mean those who are truly His, who walk in the light of Christ. There is no reason to believe that "we" are better than "they". In Christ, there is no we and they.
The discipline of disfellowshipping a person should only happen when the wrongdoer is unrepentant about sin that severely affects other believers. Sexual immorality, theft, murder, occultic practices, heresy, etc... Such a person demonstrates the likelihood that he or she has never really been regenerated, or at least has severely backslidden. Not the abuse of it that you saw at FA.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1657 is a reply to message #1656] |
Tue, 22 April 2008 02:12 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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jisamazed wrote on Mon, 21 April 2008 13:09
In Christ no person is above another so as to exclude fellowship. Therefore, it does not matter what organization or denomination the believer is a part of. We can learn from them and they from us.
Brother Jae,
I have in the years after FA, have been in a number of different Fellowships an or Denominational Churches seeking fellowship & teaching. Things go pretty well until ya start sharing what God is doing in your life. After a couple of healing testimonies an of financial blessings everyone stops talking to you, nobody wants to hang out with ya.....I have been asked a number of times, to please refrain from sharing healing testimonies, cause it was offending some members . They did not want my Fellowship ! where was the Brotherly Love.........? Oh, before you go there.......There was nothing said pro or con ref: Medical Science, just the Blessings of the Lord. Just recently I was rebuffed by an Elder cause I paid cash for a $ 16,000.00 car.....should have bought an old clunker to make my 90 mi trip to work & home every day.......He won't hang out with me either...I have found one truth over the years.....If God is moving in your life, most Church people don't want you around...you make them nervous!
Ref the Passive Faith ? Not sure about the Term: (Passive)
I love God an I know He Loves me and therefore when I have need of Healing ......HE Heals me ! Hey, if it works why going anywhere else ? Ya can't get that with Master Card or Visa !
So.............. what is Passive about that ?
Blessing in Jesus Name
Ron
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1659 is a reply to message #1657] |
Wed, 23 April 2008 00:24 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Hombre: Ref
1. The borrowing issue.
Good thoughts on that issue.
2. This stupid healing issue that refuses to die.
I say Amen to this issue....Amen.....Amen & Amen !
...do I have agreement on this...Yes from me Brother.....Thank you !
Ron
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1662 is a reply to message #1660] |
Wed, 23 April 2008 15:54 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
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Hombre: | Quote: |
Secondly, yes, I am disagreeing with the past stance of FA and HEF ( gasp! ) that these 2 issues constitute SIN.
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I agree with you on this with the following caveats: Our problem was not with the truth that healing is in the atonement, and the promise of provision without debt, but the legislative spin with which we carried out our own convictions. I think that is what you end up concluding in your note.
If I could make a somewhat weak analogy with the concept of eating meat sacrificed to idols.
Paul, to my mind, makes the case that nothing should be done based upon pressure from without, but what we do should be based strictly upon our own faith in God.
When others *do* things, based on some logical extrapolation (e.g. that we were "supposed" to be giants of faith), and base what they do upon other's expectations of what it means to be in faith, and not do it proportional to their faith, problems arise.
The problem of "doing" things without first having faith in the heart results in sin, and maybe, just as much “sin” as someone who knows right from wrong and chooses the wrong.
If a person believes (has faith in his heart) that God does not want them to seek medical attention (or go into debt) and then ends up doing those things, he sins... right?
If the same person puts pressure on another individual to do those things he has a conviction about but not shared by the other, he sins... right?
Now we can talk all day about the objective revelation and how the Word means what it says, but unless a person embraces it for themselves, it is futile to make them walk in it. (I believe this was the central problem we had, and to some degree still have.)
And no, I'm not saying that we all shouldn't be at the same place in our faith (what is good for one, is good for all!) but the fact remains, we are not.
I've been interrupted ten times, but I hope I'm making a little sense here?
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Wed, 23 April 2008 15:58]
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1664 is a reply to message #1662] |
Wed, 23 April 2008 21:24 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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I did say it was a weak analogy <grin>.
The point is that it is just as much of a sin for someone to try the faith route without faith, (or at the very least he may end up perishing for his weak conscience sake) as it is for one in the faith to go the other way. Remember, not all have faith!
Now if it were all just a black or white issue like committing adultery and not committing adultery we wouldn't hesitate to call it sin when one committed adultery, (and those who do not we would call super-elite Christians! but I digress...)
But I find it difficult to make a blanket statement about those who, for whatever reason, don't choose to take advantage of God's provision for healing, by stating categorically that they are in sin.
I know you want to keep it simple, but it does get complicated when one takes the position that drugs and doctors are evil. Actually, as I think about it, it is simpler to take that position, because to seek help from an evil source is clearly sin.
That is, and always has been the heart of the issue. It was to the point that FA'ers would rather die (even when they knew they didn't have the faith), than to seek things from an evil source.
If it were not for that very issue, we might have allowed others to grow into the knowledge of healing in the atonement, while maintaining a friendly relationship with the druggist. To reference my analogy again, we would have allowed those who didn't want to eat the sacrificed meat, room to do so. But alas, it was not to be!
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So then, am I to believe that if one thinks that medicine is evil, then one is sinning, but if one thinks that medicine is good, then one is not sinning?
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I can't answer the last part of the question, but the first part is exactly what occurred in our minds.
My mindset at the time was: to seek help from an evil source was to bring into question my salvation. I don't think I was the only one who thought that way.
Which brings me to something you said earlier:
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So then, in conclusion I think we should really not be legislating peoples' behavior toward these two issues, but rather attempting to increase their/our faith, through the understanding of Gods' good will toward us, not through the fear of consequences in these areas.
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All well and good unless you believe that drugs=evil. Until this is answered satisfactorily there won't be much solved concerning the issue.
I agree with your statement btw, (concerning not legislating other's behavior), but I'm still not able to say with certainty that drugs are neutral, neither good(from God) or evil/Satanic. Paradoxically I have gotten to the point where I can leave the decisions that others make in this area, between them and God.
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although, when I did, I preferred Borkum Riff.
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If you smoked Borkim Riff, I understand why you no longer smoke a pipe. You should try some of the latakia-laced English blends… now that is a powerful drug!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1667 is a reply to message #1656] |
Thu, 24 April 2008 01:07 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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JRS said, "I see a qualification here – “with everyone who is walking in the light of Christ”
I would say this needs to be defined then."
We are either in Christ's light or we are not. We are either born again, or we are not. If we are, we are in Christ's light, and we have fellowship one with another, and His blood washes our sins. If our sins are washed by His blood, we are in His light. He is talking about saved people here, not those who have more knowledge (or think they do) than others.
JRS asked, "What is the purpose of man?
How do you view scripture?
Is it God’s Word?
How are we to apply it?
Church discipline – What happened at FA happened – right or wrong – I wasn’t directly part of it and to go by 2nd or 3rd had info, not going there. Have a question here though – Have you or do you know anyone who has experienced church discipline in any of the denominational churches??"
1. What is the purpose of man? Revelation 4:11 says for the glory of God. If you want a technical answer, the Westminster Confession says, 'To glorify God and enjoy Him forever', which is a Biblical statement.
2. How do you view scripture? All scripture is God-breathed, and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. I don't think any of our current texts (Textus Receptus, Westcott and Hort, Nestle-Aland, etc...) are exact replicas of the original, God-breathed documents, but I do believe that such replicas are existant and that possibly someone will find them someday. We probably have some of them already. I don't buy the "King James only" nonsense.
Scripture is both human and divine in the same way that Jesus is both human and divine. It is fully divine in every aspect, and fully written by human vessels through whom God breathed His word. It is the verbal-plenary view that HEF and most other evangelicals taught.
3. Is is God's word? Absolutely. See #2 above.
4. How are we to apply it? We are to try as best as possible to determine the intent of the human author for each passage, then take the truth that is taught and bring it into our contemporary situation. To us these things were written, per I Cor 10:6. For example, "Greet one another with a holy kiss" means to respect and receive one another, even if it is a person such as Timothy who comes bringing the word from a much different culture. The truth of greeting and receiving each other fully applies to our culture by a handshake, welcoming conversation and trading shots (just kidding), even if we do not express that acceptance by a holy kiss the way that Mediterranean culture did in that time.
5. Church discipline? Yes, I have seen it applied very well in some "denominational" churches. The intent was to restore the person and help them to get back on their feet. Excommunication was rarely or never used, and it did not need to be, because healthy church discipline was applied early in the situation effectively. Jay Adams has an excellent book on church discipline. Wayne Grudem has a helpful section on it in his Systematic Theology.
Some "denominational" churches were way ahead of FA in some areas such as this.
[Updated on: Thu, 24 April 2008 02:20]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1668 is a reply to message #1664] |
Thu, 24 April 2008 02:44 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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I need to take advantage of the opportunity to state that I probably agree with Hombre and Moulder more than I disagree with them on the peer pressure/medical science matter. Miracles happen! Based on your posts, it sounds like you emphasize the need to trust the Lord, but you don't buy the medicine-and-doctors=sin idea.
However, I am more affirming of medical science as just that, a science. Science is a way of learning about the Lord's creation, and mankind has benefited enormously from it. It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings (Proverbs 25:2). The study of the human body is included. Much human suffering has been relieved by medical science, although it is flawed, just like every other thing that humans do. I do not see a contradiction between science and faith, although false science tries to undermine faith. Ultimately, everything we do and believe starts with faith in something, but I digress.
I have a good friend who is a retired physician. He is filled with the Holy Spirit and a wonderful Christian brother. He has gone oversees to bring medical help to third-world countries, and has worked amoung migrant workers, a neglected population. He also prays for the sick for healing whenever he gets the chance, and acknowledges that healing comes from the Lord, and that we have the priviledge of looking to Him. I have a hard time believing that we should take ourselves through deliverance every time we walked through the office of someone like him.
I know that there are doctors who are involved in the occult. One such doctor tried to treat me once when I was a teenager, and I refused. However, there are mechanics and builders and teachers and even a few preachers who are involved in the occult. Their profession does not make them occult, their involvment with it does. There are godly doctors and ungodly, godly engineers and ungodly, godly machinists and ungodly.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1669 is a reply to message #1657] |
Thu, 24 April 2008 02:58 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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JWBTI said, "I have in the years after FA, have been in a number of different Fellowships an or Denominational Churches seeking fellowship & teaching. Things go pretty well until ya start sharing what God is doing in your life. After a couple of healing testimonies an of financial blessings everyone stops talking to you, nobody wants to hang out with ya.....I have been asked a number of times, to please refrain from sharing healing testimonies, cause it was offending some members . They did not want my Fellowship ! where was the Brotherly Love.........? Oh, before you go there.......There was nothing said pro or con ref: Medical Science, just the Blessings of the Lord. Just recently I was rebuffed by an Elder cause I paid cash for a $ 16,000.00 car.....should have bought an old clunker to make my 90 mi trip to work & home every day.......He won't hang out with me either...I have found one truth over the years.....If God is moving in your life, most Church people don't want you around...you make them nervous!"
JWBTI, your experience has been much different than mine. When I talk about how the Lord has provided for my healing or supplied all my needs in spite of my income, other believers (and even a few nonbelievers) are often amazed and give glory to God. I generally wait until it is appropriate to the conversation before I bring it up. There are many other good things to talk about with people, and if they don't share my joy in what God has done, I don't really care. I care more about the person than about whether or not they like my testimonies. You have to develop relationships and be patient with people. To label them "denominational" or "religious" is errant and unkind and pretends that we don't have weak areas. No, I'm not saying that you are doing that, but that mentality was prevelant in the old days. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses, and we are no better than our brothers and sisters in Christ anywhere.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1671 is a reply to message #1664] |
Thu, 24 April 2008 03:33 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| Hombre wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 17:20 |
| moulder wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 16:24 |
..... I find it difficult to make a blanket statement about those who, for whatever reason, don't choose to take advantage of God's provision for healing, by stating categorically that they are in sin.
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William, you are no Jack Kennedy HEF. 
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What did I do? I ran the whole thing through a spell checker so I wouldn't get caught by the spelling nazi! And I can spell tom-a-toe.
I think you are having way too much fun since you figured out how to use the strike-out feature.
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I am not saying that doctors and medicine=evil/sin, I am saying that it is far better to me anyway, to simply recognize them as a less than perfect source than God, and that is why the woman with the issue was not healed, nor was Asa. In contrast however, what does that say about our friends, acquaintances, loved ones etc., who have died 'trusting God' who could have lived had they taken advantage of certain remedies which medical science considers to be very simple?
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This may be the shade of difference between us... I view the healing message as God's way, not merely a better way. To me the alternative is, by contrast, "not God's way".
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Here is an interesting thought: if it is sin to kill ( including suicide ) is it then sin to allow oneself to die, knowing full well that a vaccine could save and prolong your life?
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I guess this is one of those times where ignorance is bliss... I don't really have any confidence that a vaccine can save or prolong my life.
Perhaps I'm being a bit too open here, especially since you don't seem like the Dr Phil type, but I'll proceed with caution... I would find it extremely difficult to take a vaccine, knowing what I know (or at least what I *think* I know). How many times did I use I in that sentence? Introspection, get outta here!
That's as deep as I'm going to get Dr Hombre, at least at this couch session...
I'm already bracing myself lest Jae is so amazed that he feels compelled to take over the shock treatments.
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I am assuming that we are believing that God is totally in control and that when ity is time for someone to go, nothing is going to help them. Are we to assume then that it is possible to override the will of God with reference to prolonging ones' life?
...and is that what people do when their medical treatment is successful, or is God simply being merciful and overlooking their 'transgression'?
...and also, does that mean that those who believe that God is in full control of our destiny and very survival/existence are in fact sinning by their attempt to thwart Gods' will concerning their own demise by using medicine/doctors?
.....just asking....
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If you are asking me, I would answer no to the first question, I don't know, to the second, and yes to the last. Having answered yes to the last question, I will equivocate a bit by saying that those who fall into that category, are usually not cognizant of the implications in such a way as to think that they are attempting to "thwart" God's will. Unfortunately, or fortunately, if you hail from regions beyond my perspective, the question has never been raised in their minds.
Stop it man, you are blowing my mind!!!!!!!!!!
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| moulder wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 16:24 |
| Hombre: |
So then, am I to believe that if one thinks that medicine is evil, then one is sinning, but if one thinks that medicine is good, then one is not sinning?
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I can't answer the last part of the question, but the first part is exactly what occurred in our minds.
My mindset at the time was: to seek help from an evil source was to bring into question my salvation. I don't think I was the only one who thought that way.
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Well, all I can say is that I never saw it that way. I saw it the way I'm describing it, however, I saw that we were being led to believe that 'overcomers' would never fall prey to using the arm of the flesh....and as such, if some did, they were definitely NOT 'overcomers'.
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Did you ever listen to that message from the OT theology series concerning drugs? That message was the watershed event that started the whole drugs=evil mindset. At least it was my mindset. Maybe others didn't see it that way... anyone else following this thread want to chime in?
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Furthermore, it is difficult for me to condemn medicine, which has saved so many lives, including my own long before I was saved. In fact, were it not for penicillin, I would surely have died, and never lived long enough to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
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Wow, you sound certain... I guess it must be so! <grin>
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That brings to mind the fact that this idea depends upon who is looking at it, and how. If one is of the mindset that doctors and medicine are from God, then one can give thanks for them, and not be in the least bit perturbed by this issue. If one believes that they are evil, then the issue is over too. The only ones with a real problem are those who can't make up their minds one way or another...and that is not a really comfortable place to be.
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Amen to that!
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So basically what you're saying is that you have a laissez-faire spiritual mentality in these areas?
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What do you want me to do, take advantage of the situation and become a non-using pusher?
Jerking people out of the fire hasn't exactly worked very well... so, unless you've got some other suggestions, I'm going to leave the matter between labor and management.
Put that in your ecclesiastical pipe and smoke it! <grin>
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Here is a good question.
Is it better to live or to die?
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To live, of course. But you may need to die before you can really live.
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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