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| The Manchild Doctrine [message #716] |
Wed, 26 September 2007 15:19  |
 Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
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I first studied this "first fruit rapture" teaching from the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission now known as "The Pentecostal Mission". Then later I found that Hobart Freeman taught it.
From bits and pieces I heard from him talking about it he added something to what TPM had taught. That after being caught up the overcomers would return during the tribulation and feed the Woman (Church) in the wilderness.
I accepted this concept back in about 1979. Since then I have discovered a fair number of teachers are teaching this. Of course compared to standard end time teaching the number is very, very,small but nonetheless I am impressed that it is being revealed here and there.
Now here is my problem. It seems like the scriptures heavily lean to a post tribulation rapture. Is the "catching up" of the Manchild a deeply symbolic occurance of the coming forth of the overcomers with power to restore New Testament, Apostolic Christianity?
Or do you believe it is a literal pre trib rapture? I believe HF taught that those who were the overcomers would be changed into immortal beings at their catching up. Others have taken the same approach.
My belief unless someone can convince me otherwise is that the catching up is not the same as the one in 1 Thess. 4:16-17. The overcomers could possibly actually go to the throne in SPIRIT and get their marching orders and be sent back to minister without getting their glorified bodies at that time.
This happened to John in Rev. 4 and also Paul mentioned a like experience in 2 Cor. 11. Going to the throne yet returning as mortal beings and dying later.
To me this would reconcile the fact that besides Rev. 12:5 there is little or no support for a pre tribulation rapture.
For those who still believe in the Manchild doctrine what do you think? What did HF actually teach about it?
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #726 is a reply to message #716] |
Thu, 27 September 2007 17:14  |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
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Hombre said:
Consider also the parable of the ten virgins with reference to Rev. 12.
6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8: And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9: But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Matt. 25:6-10
Looking at this parable seems to refute the pre trib scenario where AFTER THE RAPTURE those who are left behind are still going to be accepted by Jesus.
Notice verse 12. To the foolish virgins he says "I know you not". He REFUSES to open to them. How will they be saved if he is rejecting them?
Also if this parable is compared to Rev. 12 it would indicate that 5 of 10 Christians are overcomers. Thats one half! Do you believe half of Christians in the world today are overcomers?
How do you stand on the Manchild RETURNING to minister on the Earth?
[Updated on: Thu, 27 September 2007 17:14]
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #730 is a reply to message #726] |
Thu, 27 September 2007 19:20 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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Michael,
At the risk of getting slammed (since this is "OvercomersOnline," I do not agree with HEFs interpretation of a "first-fruits" or "Overcomers" rapture.
As I study Matthew 25, we see the ten virgins going out to meet the Groom (Jesus). As I read it, the five foolish virgins are NOT Christians, but merely "going through the motions."
Jesus states that these virgins didn't have any oil with them. Many times in the Word, oil is symbolic of the "setting apart" of the Holy Spirit (i.e. kings and priests being anointed with oil). When I read this parable, I see that these people are the ones that grew up in church and only attend at Christmas and Easter. They think that is enough to get them into the Kingdom, but they have never truly given their life over to Christ. They are really lost, because they have no oil (i.e. they do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.)
When the bridegroom comes suddenly to rapture the true church, these foolish virgins (those that are not truly saved) are left behind.
As I read it, this parable clearly demonstrates a pre-trib rapture of the true church (not just the "overcomers").
Duncan
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #733 is a reply to message #730] |
Thu, 27 September 2007 21:13 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
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Duncan,
You will not be getting slammed by me for stating your belief. I will just point out that all TEN virgins WERE virgins. A virgin is a type of that which is pure.
Also the 5 who were foolish HAD OIL. What they said was their lamps had WENT OUT. That means their lamps were ONCE BURNING.
To me that makes it clear these were not tares.
[Updated on: Thu, 27 September 2007 21:15]
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #734 is a reply to message #730] |
Thu, 27 September 2007 21:46 |
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william
Messages: 1462
Registered: January 2006 |
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Duncan, Duncan, Duncan, (to quote the kid's Donut Man Video)... you know you're not going to get slammed! We might argue with you a bit, but slammed? (Wait a minute... here comes Hombre... I'm out'ta here!)
You'll have to agree that we do try to keep things a bit more civil over here.
As far as the name "Overcomersonline" I'm so sorry it has caused so much grief, but it is pretty hard to get domain names that are actually meaningful, especially if you are trying to get one that would somehow be recognizable to FA people. I did get hobartfreeman.com but since I wanted this site to be a resource not just for HEF followers (which I've yet to find one who was stuck back in the 80's) but for Christians everywhere who appreciate good theological discussion, I’ve not openly used that domain name. You can type "hobartfreeman.com" and be directed to this site, however.
I do like the term "overcomer" because of its usage by the Lord in His messages to the churches.
I do see a distinction between those who profess Christ and those who are actually attempting to overcome. I think it was you, or maybe it was Odysseus, who used the term as a perjoritive, but I don't see it that way. For whatever reason, God has placed a burning in my heart to follow Him wholly... it was placed there on the day I was saved. If others do not "seem" to have that same fervent desire, so be it, but I do, and I attribute this desire, not to anything that I've done, but I believe it is the grace of God.
I'll leave it to you to judge whether or not those who "seem" (I'm only going by my limited observations) less inclined to follow the Lord, fall into the category. Jesus uses the term over and over in Rev2-3, and as far as I can tell, the fact that He uses the term, indicates that there is another group that may not be "overcoming".
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #735 is a reply to message #733] |
Thu, 27 September 2007 21:51 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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Michael,
I'm running short of time, so here's my quick response to your response.
I don't read too much into the fact that they were all virgins. The Greek term is translated "marriagable maidens" or unmarried girl. In other words, they were simply bridesmaids waiting on a groom. I don't read any more into their discription than that.
Secondly, I would say that the fact someone has a lamp burning doesn't necessarily mean they are filled with the Holy Spirit. I have seen many, as I'm sure you have as well, that seem to be very spiritual people. I have seen (in fact I remember people at FA) that were always quick to raise their hands in praise or be the first one in the isle to dance before the Lord. Looking at their lives now and looking back with hindsight, I feel fairly safe in saying that they were never saved to begin with. Yet outwardly, they appeared like every other Christian. I would say that these people seemed to have a torch burning. However, I think it was the torch of their own emotion and not that of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for the discussion and letting me share my heart.
Duncan
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #736 is a reply to message #734] |
Thu, 27 September 2007 22:02 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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William,
Thanks for the kind words. Since your a Bama boy, we ought to meet for lunch at Niki's one day. It would probably be pretty fun.
As for the term Overcomer, I didn't mean to knock the name of the site or the use of the word. It's just that I view the word differently than did HEF.
I view the term as synonymous with the term Christian. HEF did not. He viewed the term as a sort of "super-Christian," if you will.
My belief is that true Christians are overcomers. If you and I are truly saved (which I believe we are), then we can't help but overcome to the end.
To me, the term "Overcomer" seemed to become a prideful thing to many FA folks. It almost became a way to look down on other Christian people through the glasses of religious pride. (Actually, FA folks didn't wear glasses, so they were actually looking down on others through their magnifying glasses.  )
Thanks for the post.
Duncan
ps - I didn't know you preached! I preached my first sermon back in March. My second one was in July, and God just finished giving me my third sermon. Whenever my pastor gives me the chance, I will preach that one. (Since I attend a Baptist Church, then all of my sermons have been to Baptists. I'm trying to bring them along as best I can!)
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #886 is a reply to message #736] |
Wed, 14 November 2007 14:27 |
Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007 |
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| Duncan wrote on Thu, 27 September 2007 17:02 |
William,
Thanks for the kind words. Since your a Bama boy, we ought to meet for lunch at Niki's one day. It would probably be pretty fun.
As for the term Overcomer, I didn't mean to knock the name of the site or the use of the word. It's just that I view the word differently than did HEF.
I view the term as synonymous with the term Christian. HEF did not. He viewed the term as a sort of "super-Christian," if you will.
My belief is that true Christians are overcomers. If you and I are truly saved (which I believe we are), then we can't help but overcome to the end.
To me, the term "Overcomer" seemed to become a prideful thing to many FA folks. It almost became a way to look down on other Christian people through the glasses of religious pride. (Actually, FA folks didn't wear glasses, so they were actually looking down on others through their magnifying glasses.
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Duncan, there were levels of Overcoming taught by Doctor Freeman, so on one level you are correct... all true believers overcome in the end.
The best analogy I can remember from the teachings is the example of the lord's disciples... of the twelve, there were three that were closer to Him, and of the three, there was one that Jesus loved.
Its prolly more comfortable to think that God loves us all the same, but it is not scriptural. Some He loves alot, and some not so much.
Overcoming as taught in FA was much along the same lines... we were taught to overcome sin, satan, self and finally the world in order to be included in the Manchild Company.
We sure enough had a great teacher, but your contention that we looked down on people shows your lack of experience. I dont know you or if you were even there, but I never knew so many beautiful, simple, humble people all in one place who gave all for Christ.
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #894 is a reply to message #886] |
Wed, 14 November 2007 22:06 |
Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007 |
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| Hombre wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 11:39 |
| Quote: |
Derek: but I never knew so many beautiful, simple, humble people all in one place who gave all for Christ.
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......dittos.
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Kudos Brother.
It seems like Duncan has an axe to grind, which I can understand completely, as we all took different experiences and perceptions away from FA.
As for his fallacious perception that Brother Freeman taught that Overcomers were Uber Christians, all I can say is that the reality of the teaching was that we were the servants of all.
But of course when you are walking on the water a bit of pride can creep in, no? But any pride I ever had concerned what my God could do. If my great faith made other christians feel inadequate and guilty, was that my fault?
[Updated on: Wed, 14 November 2007 22:08]
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #4496 is a reply to message #716] |
Thu, 25 December 2008 10:10 |
JayJay
Messages: 4
Registered: December 2008 |
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I am a new blogger on this site so bear with me. I would like to shed some light on the Biblical truth of the Rapture as taught by the TPM church. Of course one can always acquire the church's doctrinal book in addition to a number of messages especially given by the late Pastors' P.M Thomas and T.U. Thomas.
First, the manchild as mentioned in Revelations 12 is a group of overcomers perfected through trials and tribulation. This group is formed to be overcomers with childlike simplicity and humility. This manchild is synonymous with the perfected bride of Christ that is caught up in the second coming of Christ prior to the 7-year Great Tribulation. As u read in verse 5, the manchild is caught up first and then the woman is led into the wilderness in verse 6, for close to 3.5 years where the Lord has appointed a place for her. Wilderness speaks of a spiritual dry place, which will be the state of the world after the rapture during the Great Tribulation. The woman represents the church as a whole. In verse 13, the woman is persecuted, which is the first 3.5 year persecution period for the left behind Christians. Now in the final verse 17, the dragon which is the Devil, is angry with the woman yet makes war not with her but specifically makes war with the "remnant of her seed." This remnant are those who once were perfected but at the time of the rapture were found not ready. This remnant is synonomous with the wise virgins mentioned by Christ.
In Mathew 25, we see the prophetical story of the Ten Virgins, five who were foolish and five who were wise. They took their lamps or the Word of God and went forth to meet the bridegroom which speaks of the beginning of their Christian journey to be that perfected bride. The wise took oil or the anointing of the Spirit in their vessels or bodies. Now in verse 5 we see that they ALL slumbered and slept. Christ is coming in a secret, select, and sudden rapture for those who are watching and waiting as the perfected Bride to meet him at his return, not slumbering and sleeping. This watchfulness is echoed in the next parallel story of a man traveling to a far country and his command to his servants to watch and be ready for his return. After the cry was made, then all the virgins arose it says in verse 7. This speaks of the group of Christians that will awaken to their desperate state in the first half of the Great Tribulation. This is the period of coming night mentioned in John 9:4, "where no man can work." Then only by martrydom will these 5 wise virgins or the remnant of her seed be saved as seen in Matt. 25:10, and be present as guests for the marriage of the Lamb at the end of the 3.5 yr. of Great Tribulation. In Rev. 7:14, this group is shown worshipping God in heaven BEFORE His throne. Notice that this group makes it to the marriage of the Lamb with the Bride before the throne, while the Bride or the Manchild is caught up TO God's throne. These marytrs from Great Tibulation group is shown again in Rev. 20:4.
This view is mirrored in the Old Testament which is a type and shadow of things to come in the New Testament that we live in now. In Psalms 45, we see the deeper truth of God the Father speaking to Jesus regarding the Bride. In verse 13, we see that the Bride's beauty is all within and her clothing or character is wrought gold that is refined through fire which speak of trials and tribulations. In verse 14, the raiment of needlework speaks of great detail necessary in order to prepare her without spot, blemish, wrinkle. Then we see the "virgins that follow her" which speak of the wise virgins that follow the Bride after the rapture by becoming martyrs and appearing before the throne of God after the first 3.5 yrs of Great Tribulation. Again we see a type of the Bride in Song of Solomon 6:8-9 which speaks of "virgins without number but my dove, undefiled virgin is but ONE." In verse 10, she is as the morning which speaks of mercy, fair as the moon which speaks of grace, clear as the sun which speaks of righteousness, and army with banners speaks of a group of overcomers who rule with Christ on his throne with the rod of iron or righteouness as mentioned in Rev. 12:5.
So now we are back to the chapter that we began this discussion. I hope that this piece has answered a few of your questions. This but the tip of the iceburg to this teaching of Christ's Second Coming. For more information feel free to respond. Take any question to God in sincere prayer, he is not a God of confusion so the answer is always clearly stated in the Word of God. It is our understanding that must be refined and corrected not by wordly wisdom but by the power of the Holy Spirit who will lead us unto the path of righteouness and truth. Just remember that the deeper truths are what Paul refers to as strong meat, as supposed to milk, which speaks of the fundamental teachings of salvation and such, that a large number of Christians have experienced. In our spiritual growth we must increase in faith and knowledge, maturing from milk needing babes to strong meat receiving and living overcomers. Thus, the deeper truths will be the hardest to digest.
[Updated on: Fri, 26 December 2008 03:49]
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #4503 is a reply to message #4496] |
Thu, 25 December 2008 18:09 |
Mark L
Messages: 853
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
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I have wondered for a long time who the remmant of her seed is. I have never heard an explanation that satisfied me.
My explanation (and I'm not sure it satisfies either) is that they are messianic Jews who reject the label of christian. There are plenty of them.
They see themselves as Jews who have found their messiah. They believe to be a christian is OK for a gentile but not them. Generalizing here but they reject baptism and most NT teaching.
Bro Freeman called that a deception and with no criticism intended to them because they are brothers I agree.
[Updated on: Thu, 25 December 2008 18:09]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #4505 is a reply to message #4503] |
Thu, 25 December 2008 20:54 |
Mark L
Messages: 853
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Location: Canada |
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There are a lot of messianic Jews in the world. A lot of them see themselves as completed Jews who are more or less christian. There is only one new man in the NT. Jews/gentiles we are all just Jesus disciples. but there is a large group of Jews who while they definitely consider themselves disciples of Jesus having repented of their sins & received him as messiah/savior just like us do not see themselves as xian but as Jews. And they make a very definite distinction.
Christianity Today did an article on them some time ago. My parents get a newletter from a ministry like that. I can"t find them on line. Their name is Goldberg out of Germany. Saved? Definitely! But they also made a statement in an article I read that they do not believe in prozelizing between the two groups. eg completed Jew and Xian
Some messianic Jews are baptized in the Holy spirit and some not. Some are baptized in water some not. The ones I'm talking about here reject everything in the NT. They don't need it because they are Jews. In their opinion of course.
he went to make war with the rest of her offspring". I don't know where you would specifically get Jews from this verse
I'm just giving my opinion that that group is maybe these messianic Jews. Just an opinion and maybe not even right. My point was that I've never heard an explanation that satisfied me of who the offspring/remnant of her seed are.
I see 3 different groups there in rev 12 - the oc's the women(probably the church) and the womens seed. I've thought about this for many yrs and I can't see how anyone connected with the church could not be part of the women there. The only group I can see being part of her seed yet not part of the church are messianic Jews who have rejected being part of the church.
I don't think there is any relation other than the 144,000 figure between the groups in Rev 7 & 12
Interesting discussion! If anyone else has an opinion on who the remnant of her seed are I would sure like to hear it.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #4508 is a reply to message #4496] |
Fri, 26 December 2008 03:01 |
JayJay
Messages: 4
Registered: December 2008 |
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Thanks for the welcome Brother Gary. I want to begin by sayin a Merry Nimrod's Day, lol. I guess this would be the perfect topic of discussion for today's paganistic celebration of the sun-god incarnate Nimrod's (Baal, Mythra, Surya, Saturnalia) b-day, but it seems like the well-informed members on this site already know this. Jeremiah 10:1-5 shows clearly that this celebration is the oldest paganistic celebration as we know it. After Christ's blessed death and resurrection, this paganistic practice was propagated by the sect of the Nicolitanes, which thing our Lord also hates as seen in Rev. 2:6,14-16. Hence, with the mix of the German pagan god Oden and this one herectic called Nicholas, we get the character St. Nicholas or Santa Claus. There is so much more information in regards to this matter if one needs clarification on this topic.
Now back to answer Brother Gary's question of where I get this concept that the five "wise" virgins will go through the Great Tribulation. First, the wise virgins were wise in two manners, wise in knowledge of the truth and wise in receiving the anointing of the Spirit before the Bridegroom came. Now in verse 5 we read, while the bridegroom tarried, they ALL SLUMBERED AND SLEPT. As I stated in the previous post, various places in the Scriptures we read that Christ is returning for a group of perfected saints that are WATCHING AND WAITING for His return NOT ones who are in spiritual slumber. Thus, they only got "wise" in truly preparing themselves after the Second Coming. In verse 10, we see the wise virgins goin to the marriage which speaks of them being guests at the marriage supper of the Lamb in the middle of the Seven-year Tribulation. Then the door is shut which speaks of the end of guests being allowed into the marriage supper. However, this is not to be confused with the Bride who has prepared herself in a ever-ready state of Watchfulness not Slumber. Herein, She is a overcomer, manchild, and undefiled dove. Whereas, the Great Tribulation martyrs are the "remnant of her seed", wise virgins, and virgins without number. Pay careful attention to the singular terms always used in reference to the Bride while plural terms are always used to signify the "virgins that follow her" as stated on my previous post.
Now let us consider the group of 144,000 mentioned in Rev. 14. These are the the 144,000 meant for Zion. This group along with the saints that are in New Jerusalem make up the Bride of Christ that will go up in His Second Coming. As seen in Matt 19:12, Jesus speaks of three types of eunuchs, those that were intrinsicly born so, those that were made such by men, and those that make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God. He ends this verse with, "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it," which shows that this teaching will not be something that is meant for all Christians, to the contrary it is for those chosen few that have a calling and election to do so. Again we see this teaching in the Old Testament in Isaiah 56:4-5. In verse 5 we see, "even unto them will I give in mine house...a place and a name BETTER than that of sons and daughters." The "sons and daughters" speak of New Jerusalem saints, for we are joint-heirs in Christ unto God which is the purpose of the New Testament convenant. Thus, this passage is a prophesy of New Testament eunuchs, who are synonomous with the 144,000 ones that are meant for Zion, ones that have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of God. Zion is where God dwells and hereby the calling unto Zion is the greatest ministry with the greatest reward.
Next, the question of the silent rapture. By this, I assume that you agree that the rapture is sudden and select. I am sorry but the term that I meant to use was SECRET not silent. I Thess. 4:13-18 speaks of this Second Coming of Christ. He will come with a shout , voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. "The dead in Christ shall rise first and then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them," which speaks of taking part in this first resurrection of which Christ was the forerunner. Now notice among other places, two verses later in I Thess. 5:2, we see that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. For if the keeper of the house had known what time the thief would come he would have been watching and waiting and not allowed his house to be broken into. The Lord is the master of our house or body, so if we are in the state of readiness when he comes he will take us with him. However, to the ones that are slumbering and sleepin, he will come as a thief in the night to catch them unawares, in "a flash, in the twinkling of an eye." So when the trump of God sounds at his Second Coming, it is a shout that only his sheep that hear his voice will hearken to, the rest of the world will not hear a thing since their ears are not intuned to God's voice, for he is not their Shepherd. This is the "midnight cry" that is made, after which "the night in which no man can work" is ushered in, which speaks of the Great Tribulation period. Only AFTER this Second Coming advent will the "wise virgins" awake out of their spiritual slumber to meet him. To them Christ will unfortunately come as a thief in the night, not as their Bridegroom, seeing that they were not ready, but sleeping and only later got ready. Their entrance into heaven as martyrs however will take place at the mid-point of the 7-year Great Tribulation, after which the door to the marriage supper is shut.
The woman is the Christian church as a whole and the manchild is the perfected Bride that is hidden within this woman until Christ returns as seen in Rev. 12:5 and also in Rev. 2:26-27. Man in the sense of overcomer, child in the sense of humility and simplicity in Christ, Bride in the sense of spiritual purity who is ardently watching and waiting for her espoused Bridegroom, keeping herself "without spot, wrinkle, or blemish." Through travail, or trials and tribulation this manchild is brought forth as "gold that is tried and purified in the furnace." Notice that this overcoming Bride or manchild is caught up TO God's throne BEFORE the period of Great Tribulation where the dragon persecutes the woman, yet makes war not with her but with the "remnant of her seed" or "wise virgins." The 144,000 is part of the manchild but not exclusively, since the New Testament saints that belong to New Jerusalem are "sons and daughters" that are included in this manchild group also.
Now in Rev. 12:6 we see that the woman fled into the wilderness which speaks of a famine for the Word of God. This is the "night where no man can work." Then we see that "she hath a place prepared of God, that THEY should feed her for 1260 days." In verse 5 we see, "and she brought forth A MAN CHILD." The manchild that is caught up to God's throne PRIOR to the woman being led into the wilderness shows that the manchild has already been raptured, while the woman is left behind on this earth and needs to be fed during the night where no man can work. So it is clear that the manchild is not the group referred to as "they" that is responsible in feeding her. This group referred to as "they" is seen in Rev. 11:3-4. In verse 3, " And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES, and THEY shall prophesy 1260 days. They in essence will be the only two ministering people on this earth sent for the left behind woman for the EXACT same number of days that she is in the wilderness for. These two though not explicitly stated in the Bible are Enoch and Elijah of the Old Testament. As it is stated in Heb 9:27, "appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgement." The Word of God is the lamp and the anointing of the Spirit the oil. I hope this serves to clarify any related question. Feel free to post any further questions.
Blessing to share this with you as well,
- Jay
[Updated on: Fri, 26 December 2008 04:03]
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #4516 is a reply to message #4508] |
Fri, 26 December 2008 19:17 |
JayJay
Messages: 4
Registered: December 2008 |
Junior Member |
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Well I see that Brother Gary at least agrees with me on one thing, the paganistic origins of X-Mas. First, a parable by definition is a story that contains a hidden parallel truth. On the issue of "slumber and sleep," which was the condition of the wise virgins, it is speaking of their spiritual state as seen in I Thess. 5:1-8. Now the midnight hour, which represents the begining of the Great Tribulation, is also seen in the parable of the hired laborers in Matt 20: 1-9. Then read what Jesus states in John 9:4-5 in regards to "the night where no man can work."
The reference to the verses that back my assertions on the Bride of Christ and Great Tribulation martyrs are all mentioned on my first post. Bride of Christ as the overcomer can be seen in Rev. 2:26-27, 3:12, 21. Manchild can be seen in Rev. 12:5. Undefiled dove can be seen in the OT as a type and shadow of the Bride in Song of Sol. 6:9. "Remnant of her seed," is seen in Rev. 12:17. "Virgins without number," in Song of Sol. 6:8. This is echoed in Psalm 45:13-14 also. Notice the virgins follow the king's daughter and are brought to her, this is a type of the Tribulation martyrs whereas the king's daughter is the Bride. Fuirther, this group is explained in Rev. 7:13-15, where they are shown to be standing BEFORE God's throne, not UP TO ON His throne like the overcomers or the manchild do.
In reference to eunuchs one teaching is used to explain another. In this case the New Testament eunuchs explain the 144,000 sealed for Zion. You have not offered any counter explanation to this for me to clarify. And you are right, there is no verse that explicitly states that the wise virgins are martyrs. The reason for this is clear, a parable by definition is IMPLICIT not explicit, a story with a parallel hidden message. By the way, evrything that I put in quotations is from the Bible and the reason for not putting the verse after it is to not be repetitive seeing that I have quoted the verse on my first post.
The two witnesses are "they" that will feed the woman in the wilderness. Wilderness speaks of a famine for the word of God after his Second Coming not a literal desert i.e. Sahara. The reason why it is them is once again clear. Read Rev 11:3 and then read Rev. 12:6, the correlation of the 1260 days is not a coincidence but designated by God. No where does it state that the manchild ever comes back to the Earth to miniter AFTER he is caught up TO God's throne. Man's assumptions and opinions I agree are invalid, but proper interpretation is essential. Notice that verses are stated and then the explanation, whereas you disagree with the explanation but offer no verses to counter. Light dispels darkness, and our God is not a God of confusion.
Praise the Lord,
- Jay
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #4518 is a reply to message #4496] |
Fri, 26 December 2008 20:05 |
JayJay
Messages: 4
Registered: December 2008 |
Junior Member |
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Thank You for the welcome Hombre. Oneness doctine? I am Pentecostal, but do not believe in Oneness doctrine. I believe in the Trinity, God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as being three distinct persons under one Godhead. TPM is The Pentecostal Mission and in the U.S. it is known as The New Testament Church (In the future, if you need clarification on its doctrines, you can ask, please do not assume so there is no confusion).
So that I am clear as to what you believe, we are of one mind in regards to the Woman (Church), Manchild (Overcomer), and Remnant of her seed (left-behind Christians that once were the seed or overcomer) as being distinct groups that are part of the Woman. I have but one question to ask you, where in the Bible does it ever describe the Bride, or the Manchild, or the overcomers, to be SLUMBERING AND SLEEPING, rather she is asked to be "watchful and vigilant". And to clarify, in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, Jesus speaks of two groups of people not THREE. The "wise" made themsleves ready AFTER the midnight call was made which means that they were here on earth during the Great Tribulation, or "night where no man can work." Last, there is only ONE Marriage supper of the Lamb. The wise virgins made it as guests not as the BRIDE for this supper at the midpoint of the 7-year Tribulation as martyrs. You actually state my very point in this I quote:
Once the 'manchild' or 'overcoming group' is raptured, there will remain ( obviously )
...the remnant of her seed.
These people will then also be divided further as time continues, by the same criteria:
1. those who make themselves ready, and
2. those who do not.
The parable of the wise and foolish virgins describes exactly what you state above, wise that make themselves ready during the Great Tribulation after the manchild is caught up and those that dont which are the foolish. Only the slumbering and sleeping group will be left behind, whereas the Bride never spiritually sleeps but stays watching and waiting for her Bridegroom.
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #6208 is a reply to message #5042] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 23:17 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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7. "Popular view is that woman is Israel."
GWB Dec 25 (above) Dr. Freeman's partial outline of Revelation
"The woman represents the church as a whole."
Jay Jay Dec 25 (above)
"And they make a very definite distinction."
Hardbones Dec 25 (above)
I find all of this very interesting. I can't seem to quit studying the topic.
This is exactly why I was so concerned as to "Who Is Israel?"
I believe the woman is Israel as taught at FA. It is in the outline and on the Revelation tapes.
We have precious Jewish people being saved, yet not embracing the whole counsel of God. The "one new man" is still divided. I think we need each other! I have been learning so much from the feasts related to prophecy. However, I refuse to be put under bondage. The Blood of Jesus redeemed me, not a meal with meaning.
Answer so far for me: Brother Jiz summed it all for me concerning the TWO covenants. WE are Israel spiritually, being grafted into Abraham. Saved Jewish people (Messianic Judaism) are physical and spiritual Israel. And, like Jiz said, God is going to fulfill promises to spiritual/physical Israel (Jews and the land). We "overlap" if you will.
(Hey Jiz, correct me on any of this if I am way off here! I am pretty sure I understood your point. I don't want to get into the Replacement Theology thing!)
So, if Christians are spiritual Israel, why can't a pure people, who overcome in all things, come out of the Woman (Saved Israel/Grafted in Israel = One New Man) in Rev. 12?
I stated in another thread, I think "Who Is Israel?", that Dr. Freeman's use of the term "purified" during Tribulation comes from Daniel. Or, those who did not overcome will have to be purified.....throw out Xmas trees, die out to self, and total faith etc. (By the way, those who miss holidays could study the Feasts. I think they could be awesome teaching venues for family, etc.).....no bondage!
The idea, I believe, of the Manchild returning to minister in Tribulation was first given in a vision given to Tommy Hick's during the 1954 Argentina Revival.
You can go to http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/hicks.html. to read the whole thing.
Also: "Clara Grace saw overcomers come back and minister in
the Great Tribulation." HEF Revelation Outline Tape #3
I don't think that the teaching of the Manchild returning to minister is in the Word. If so, let me know. That is not to say that it will not happen that way. Like we have heard before, "It would be a mighty army!" (Gideon's Army tape)
Well, there ya go. Let me know what you all think when you have time.
Blessings,
GWB
[Updated on: Thu, 12 November 2009 23:39]
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #6221 is a reply to message #4505] |
Fri, 13 November 2009 00:49 |
David Coleman
Messages: 319
Registered: October 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hey, As I browse through your notes I can see a lot of things about you. You were very interested in what you were hearing. Also you were getting a lot of information and so you jotted notes that were a sum up of what was being said. God is tremendously blessing me as I was a faithful note taker. Even when listening to tapes. When I look at your notes to me they are wonderful ,but I'm going to tell you what I think others may think. 2. (f) at the bottom one may ask the question do I have to give up everything I own. We who have heard the message I have -- understand that we are not to put anything in first place in our lives. I know some couldn't handle the statement you have to hate your wife your family etc. the newspaper had a hayday with things bro. Freeman said about marital relationships and put them in the paper. I think your messages about the manchild would be much more appreciated if they sort of put a full statement I know that can be a lot of work but it will glorify the Lord. You may not be able to remember everything that you made jot notes of . another benefit is you will be able to enjoy the teaching all over again, perhaps the Holy Spirit may give you parrelel statements to the original writings which will make the study more memorable to you. remember half a note is not a whole note. God bless.
faith-- forsake all I trust him. Baal-- believe apostacy all lost. bible-- believe in bible life eternal.
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #6225 is a reply to message #6221] |
Fri, 13 November 2009 03:53 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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Hey brodav9!
Thanks for your tips. I am pretty new to forums. Also, I now realize that I can't assume that new people have read all of the topics and discussions.  
I will keep on doing my best. In the meantime, keep on giving me tips about how to be a better writer and relate to others in forums.
I enjoy your topics and hearing about how He is working in your life. I also love hearing about your operating in Faith and how you keep it so simple. I am sure you have spent years in the Word, endured many things, and keep an open mind to have such neat stories. Bless you and your family.
Also, if you are talking about the numbered and lettered outlines, those were handed out at FA when we met in the barn years ago. Dr. Freeman outlined Revelation as a guide for the body while we studied that book. I am just transposing them for this site.
Thanks my Brother and Blessings,
GWB
[Updated on: Fri, 13 November 2009 03:59]
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #6233 is a reply to message #6231] |
Fri, 13 November 2009 21:03 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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I'm glad you got that straightened out, since I don't have any tapes or notes anymore, I have been trusting my memory. You had me going there for a while and then when Jiz didn't correct it I figured maybe I was wrong. But I went back in one of my older bibles and in the margin I'd written by Rev.12 and it said 'the woman is the unbelieving church'. I really do believe that is correct, I can see now why you've had so many questions about Israel lately. It's sure not the easiest book to understand, but God gives wisdom and understanding to those who seek it with their whole hearts.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Manchild Doctrine [message #6282 is a reply to message #6281] |
Thu, 19 November 2009 05:47 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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I am sorry, ktrepairs, but I do believe most of us are believing in that area.
Seriously, when they recorded the teachings at the new building, I think they were on reel to reel.
I recorded a music tape with Carl, Greg, Carolyn, etc., and it was all done on reel to reel.
I am pretty sure the teachings were done the same way. It was then recorded on cassettes for the mailing list, etc.
Whenever I have ordered teachings from FA, it has been delivered as cassettes.
The notes you are reading, from Revelation, are not my notes. I am typing out the notes from handouts I received as a member of FA when I heard the teachings as they were being delivered by Dr. Freeman.
They were provided by FA and written by Dr. Freeman at the time.
I hope this clears up your questions.
So good to hear from ya! Let me know what you have learned from these outlines. I love hearing how He is ministering to each and every one of us in these critical times in which we find ourselves.
He is a good God...the One and Only!
Blessings,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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