Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » Thoughts On Divine Healing (Part 1)
| Thoughts On Divine Healing (Part 1) [message #415] |
Sat, 20 January 2007 15:23  |
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 unclebob_5
Messages: 15
Registered: January 2007
Location: Pennsylvania, USA |
Junior Member |
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These are just some random thoughts on the subject of Divine healing:
--All healing is from God.
--Gradual healing through natural processes is not to be despised -- the source of this healing is God.
--To minister to the sick through Medicine, Nursing, or scientific research is a God-honorimg occupation.
--It is not wrong to use an 'aid' to assist the body's functions (example: a cane, crutches, a wooden leg) until complete healing has been manifested.
--We must avoid the "can/must" fallacy: that because God CAN work in a certain way, that He therefore MUST always work in that same manner at all times.
--In exercising faith for the sick, we - as creatures - must not attempt to dictate to God - the Creator - who ALWAYS acts in the total freedom of His own will - the MANNER in which He will act. To do so is presumption, not faith. (A conclusion based on the previous point.)
Your thoughts?
Bob...
<<<FAITH>>> MOVES MOUNTAINS
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| Re: Thoughts On Divine Healing (Part 1) [message #420 is a reply to message #415] |
Tue, 23 January 2007 15:52  |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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| unclebob_5 wrote on Sat, 20 January 2007 09:23 |
--All healing is from God.
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First we must define what you mean by "healing".
Do you mean that a person is "healed" when the doctor cuts off a gangrenous leg, or a heart is transplanted from someone (who, by definition is not healed!)?
Do you mean that a person is "healed" after taking medication for an affliction, when that same medication may be destroying another part of the body. (I just heard this weekend that studies have revealed that a popular drug's side-effect is the destruction of the heart valves, although, to be fair it was pretty effective on it's primary target!)
To sum up the above scenarios, are we taking about "healing" when one suffers loss in other areas to affect the cure? Or should we leave open the possibility that some types of "healing" might not be, to use your words--"from God", or "divine" (the term I like!)?
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--Gradual healing through natural processes is not to be despised -- the source of this healing is God.
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Again, we need to determine what is meant by the phrase "natural processes". Is popping a pill included in the meaning, or is the body's natural functions (even apart from prayer) the only thing meant?
If by "natural" you mean "body only" then by "source" do you mean originally, as in "designed by God" or do you mean God is actively involved in the "natural" process? Would your answer include believers and non-believers alike? And finally, do you mean God working alone in these natural processes?
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--To minister to the sick through Medicine, Nursing, or scientific research is a God-honorimg occupation.
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I'll reserve comment on this until we more exactly determine what is meant by "divine healing", "natural healing", and "aided healing" (as mentioned below).
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--It is not wrong to use an 'aid' to assist the body's functions (example: a cane, crutches, a wooden leg) until complete healing has been manifested.
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I'll not disagree with this statement with the examples given, but I would like a further clarification on what you mean by the "wooden leg" standing (no pun intended) in place until the complete healing has been manifested. That answer will go a long way in determining the difference between natural, aided, or divine healing!
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--We must avoid the "can/must" fallacy: that because God CAN work in a certain way, that He therefore MUST always work in that same manner at all times.
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Yep, and another fallacy, the fallacy that says that because doctors/medicine can alleviate pain, and chop off the problem, (still reluctant to use the term "heal" here... at least until we define it further) that this is God's methodology.
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--In exercising faith for the sick, we - as creatures - must not attempt to dictate to God - the Creator - who ALWAYS acts in the total freedom of His own will - the MANNER in which He will act. To do so is presumption, not faith. (A conclusion based on the previous point.)
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I'll agree with this... especially since He has already told us exactly how we are to exercise faith for the sick... (Mark 16, James 5, to mention only two of many!) to do so in any other manner is certainly the height of presumption!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Thoughts On Divine Healing (Part 1) [message #430 is a reply to message #420] |
Mon, 29 January 2007 22:35 |
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unclebob_5
Messages: 15
Registered: January 2007
Location: Pennsylvania, USA |
Junior Member |
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OK, here goes...
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--All healing is from God.
First we must define what you mean by "healing".
Do you mean that a person is "healed" when the doctor cuts off a gangrenous leg, or a heart is transplanted from someone (who, by definition is not healed!)?
Do you mean that a person is "healed" after taking medication for an affliction, when that same medication may be destroying another part of the body. (I just heard this weekend that studies have revealed that a popular drug's side-effect is the destruction of the heart valves, although, to be fair it was pretty effective on it's primary target!)
To sum up the above scenarios, are we taking about "healing" when one suffers loss in other areas to affect the cure? Or should we leave open the possibility that some types of "healing" might not be, to use your words--"from God", or "divine" (the term I like!)?
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Yes, one of your good thoughts here is that there is more than one way to view "healing" - what might constitute a healing for some, might not be thought so by others!
I personally do not view chopping off (to use your word) of a diseased limb, or receiving a heart transplant as something less than healing, or at least an attempt to restore a condition of health and well-being to the body, up to the limits of human knowledge. And that is an important consideration: human knowledge has its limits. When (or if) we place ourselves in the care of a physician for medical treatment, we are being cared for by fellow human beings. As you mentioned with reference to drug side-effects, medical science is sometimes not fully aware of the impact of drugs (or other procedures) on other bodily functions. IF we choose to accept medical treatment, we must do so with the realization that human medicine is by no means perfect, that it has limits, and often offers no guaranteed outcomes.
Medical treatment, in its essence, is about balancing choices and options: "If we do thus and so, what will (might) be the outcome?", "If we don't do it, what might (will) happen?". We face a medical emergency/illness and must make these choices: "If the gangrenous leg is not amputated, then…". Doctors receive training to (hopefully!) help them - and those they care for - make the most informed decision possible. Much of the time, their counsel is helpful; sometimes, it is not.
I would say that at this point in the discussion my original contention still stands: Healing -- however you choose to define it, whatever limitations you choose to put on it, healing -- true and beneficial healing -- has God for its source. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights…" (James 1.17)
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--Gradual healing through natural processes is not to be despised -- the source of this healing is God.
Again, we need to determine what is meant by the phrase "natural processes". Is popping a pill included in the meaning, or is the body's natural functions (even apart from prayer) the only thing meant?
If by "natural" you mean "body only" then by "source" do you mean originally, as in "designed by God" or do you mean God is actively involved in the "natural" process? Would your answer include believers and non-believers alike? And finally, do you mean God working alone in these natural processes?
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Gradual: this means not immediate.
Natural: this could be the body's own (internal) processes - for example, white blood cells fighting off infection; it could also encompass the taking of medication - for example, receiving doses of penicillin to combat infection. This treatment can result in the return of health to the patient, and the source of this healing is from God, no less so because it does not seem like a miracle to some.
God created the human mind - God allows us to explore our world and gain knowledge about it - and the knowledge we can acquire includes medical knowledge. We are responsible - and will be held accountable to Him - for our use of the knowledge He give us, whether in science and technology, politics, education, medicine, or any other field. Doctors have a saying: "God cures the patient, but the doctor picks up the fee." God may choose to heal alone - through natural processes (which I would think would normally result in a gradual return to health over time). He may choose to heal through a direct supernatural intervention. However He chooses to bring about the healing, God is still in control of the outcome. What did Jesus say? Nothing - not even a sparrow falling from the sky (Matthew 10.29) can occur without God's knowledge, and by implication, without His wise permission.
These are the main points I wished to stress at this time…Lord willing, I will be making more posts on this subject. I have some thoughts on the following that might be of interest to some as we reflect together on this subject, and as I have an opportunity, I will post on them. (I will probably start a new thread for each of them to keep things organized and to a reasonable length):
--How does the Bible speak of medicine in the Bible?
--What was Jesus' attitude toward the use of medicine, doctors, and those who sought medical treatment?
--Are there other passages in the NT that speak of the use of medicine - if there are, do they speak of it positively or negatively?
--Jesus is the Great Physician - does resorting to medical treatment rob Him of His Glory and deny Him of His due?
--James 5 - what is it really saying?
Bob...
<<<FAITH>>> MOVES MOUNTAINS
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| Re: Thoughts On Divine Healing (Part 1) [message #431 is a reply to message #430] |
Mon, 29 January 2007 22:38 |
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unclebob_5
Messages: 15
Registered: January 2007
Location: Pennsylvania, USA |
Junior Member |
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In closing this entry today, I would like to tell you several healing testimonies.
The first one I would like to relate is about a woman, a Pastor's wife. She is in her early 70's. Both she and her husband are in excellent health, and are very active in the Lord's work. Last year, she had her regular yearly mammogram. Strange formations were noted. Not the pinpoint stuff - these were big blotches. Her doctor became quite concerned. She was immediately referred to an Oncologist - a doctor specializing in the treatment of cancer. Her family began immediately to pray - the entire church began to fast and pray. She sought no medical treatment whatsoever at this point. About a month later, she again went back for tests and the doctors could discover no medical abnormalities - the formations previously noted had vanished! There was no illusion about what they had seen at first - and the medical people cannot explain what happened. At no time, did she or anyone in her family desire to have her seek medical treatments for what the doctors surely believed was breast cancer. A healing? Without a doubt - for which we are very grateful to God! This lady is my mother-in-law.
The second healing encounter concerns another, much younger, woman. She is in her late 30's (she also attends our home church). For years and years - at the least the past 7 - she had suffered tremendously painful migraine headaches. She was run through the medical meat grinder: tests, more tests, pills, potions, and prescriptions; still more tests, this specialist and that one. Most of the migraine medicine was not helpful to her in the slightest. She also is a fine Christian lady, trusts the Lord for all things, was anointed and prayed for by the elders of the Church, in accordance with James 5. At one time she was on 5 different medications simultaneously! Then, by the grace of God, she "happened" to make the acquaintance of a Christian lady, a Chiropractor, who recommended some weekly treatments and nutritional supplements. The change has been incredible! She is no longer taking ANY medication (her doctor knows and approves), and now gets headaches no oftener, nor with any more discomfort, than you or I. A healing? Again, without a doubt - and again, for which we are grateful to God! You see, this woman is my wife.
The final healing encounter concerns myself. Many years ago, when I was much younger - both in the Lord and in physical age - I had just finished reading one of Dr. Freeman's booklets where he discussed faith, and trusting the Lord for healing. I was taking a shower, and my left arm and shoulder had been injured. Gym class I think. It was so painful and sore that I could not even raise it above my head. In the shower, I decided to act, in faith, and trust God for healing. I prayed while I held my shoulder. When I removed my hand - I kid you not - the pain had vanished. Instantly. Never returned. That was a "WOW" experience, to say the least. A healing? Yes… Perhaps I should tell you of my healing from a severe fall and fracture of several ribs (no medical treatment)? How about my wife's fall into a hole in the back yard - incredible swelling and pain - that disappeared immediately after laying on of hands and the prayer of faith?
Or perhaps I should speak of my mother - a dear devoted Christian woman, who contracted lung cancer just 3 years ago and was dead in less than six months, a condition that did not respond to any treatment, prayer, fasting, intercession - nothing. She was simply taken. Never had a major health problem or issue her entire life. She was the most selfless Christian woman I have ever known; she had very hard life - all of her life - and she gave herself completely to raising 3 boys when their dad died. Taken. Perhaps I could tell you about the baby brother who never made it home from the hospital after being born (we named him Harry, after the man we all thought of as grandpa, but who was simply a friend of the family). There is the case of my uncle, who had most of his intestines removed due to cancer - yet, through the prayers of God's people and the ministrations of the doctors, lived over 15 years after this (they told us at the time that this was almost unheard of). He died in no pain - yet he had not been given morphine or other pain-killing drugs. In fact, he died peacefully at home. I know. I helped to take care of him in the final weeks of his life. A miracle? Yes…
I'll leave you with this final account. There is a man I'm thinking of, employed in the financial services industry (read that banking) for much of his adult life. Early in his marriage, he had an accident where he slipped in the mud and landed with all his weight on his left knee. Very painful. The doctors did not believe there would be any long-term problems. They were VERY wrong. He has prayed, fasted, sought the Lord in every way possible for a divine healing. It has not come. Medical treatment is not an option in this instance. For a while, he was able to travel with the use of a cane, but eventually became so limited in movement that he could no longer travel to work. He had to resign his position last February, and for most of last year the only income he and his wife have had was what was provided by her employment. Yet, the Lord has recently begun to provide for their material needs in a very unusual way, and now things are much better for them. He, too, has been prayed for by the elders of our church in accordance with James 5. Questions? Yes, he's had a few. He has battled depression and despair. He has looked down into the pit, leaned over the ledge, you might say. That guy is me. I write these words to you from my bedside, and I AM NOT ASHAMED TO SPEAK. I am a sparrow that fell to the ground. My world is now (mostly) the upper floor of our house, and a weekly trip to church. I've known the questions and confusions, and the sleepless nights…the ALONENESS. That awful aloneness. I am a sparrow that fell…yet my Heavenly Father knows…He knows.
There are many of you out there, affiliated in some way past or present, with FA, that have a lot of unresolved questions. And hurts. Some of you deal daily with the horrors of a crisis of faith that will just not go away. I know. I have read your posts. The pain and bitterness and confusion and despair is all over you. ITS OK. DO NOT BE ASHAMED TO SPEAK. THERE IS HEALING IN SPEAKING - EVEN IF NO ONE IS LISTENING. I'm right there, with you. I don't come as the "answer man". If I had it all worked out, I'd be making the rounds of the Christian TV shows, I guess. I'm just here - and there - with you. Some of you no longer hold to any faith. You can't. For you, it would be like pouring poison down your throat. I'm here. It's very quiet in the house right now, and the winter sun is shining through the window-blinds. I'm sitting up in bed, with the covers all around to keep out the cold, writing these lines. It's ok. Even if you hate God today. Do you imagine you are the first? It's ok. Healing can come. And if you want to feel God's love again, you can. If you want it. Thanks for taking the time to read all of this.
Why are some healed in one way - and some in another? And, yes, some not at all? We confront deep mysteries here. Let us tread softly.
"Not even a sparrow can fall to the ground…"
Bob...
<<<FAITH>>> MOVES MOUNTAINS
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| Divine vs Natural vs Human vs Satanic? [message #445 is a reply to message #430] |
Tue, 06 February 2007 16:53 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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Bob,
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I personally do not view chopping off (to use your word) of a diseased limb, or receiving a heart transplant as something less than healing, or at least an attempt to restore a condition of health and well-being to the body, up to the limits of human knowledge.
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From reading your post, I don’t see that you make a distinction between “an attempt to restore a condition of health and well-being to the body, up to the limits of human knowledge” by man, and God’s promises to heal. God doesn’t “attempt” to heal. Either He does or He does not.
You say:
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human knowledge has its limits…
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God has no such limits, so I see a clear distinction between the two options.
You continue to blur the distinction when you say:
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IF we choose to accept medical treatment, we must do so with the realization that human medicine is by no means perfect, that it has limits, and often offers no guaranteed outcomes.
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And later in your note:
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I would say that at this point in the discussion my original contention still stands: Healing -- however you choose to define it, whatever limitations you choose to put on it, healing -- true and beneficial healing -- has God for its source. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights…" (James 1.17)
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How is it there is no distinction between your statements. Obviously, “human knowledge has its limits” and “human medicine is by no means perfect…” and human medicine “often offers no guaranteed outcomes” contrasted with “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights…”? Couple that with the rest of the verse “…with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” and you’ve got a major contradiction.
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--Gradual healing through natural processes is not to be despised -- the source of this healing is God.
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By this logic, the source of the sickness is God as well… which leads one to the conclusion that it may be God’s will for one to be sick and if so, then seeking any kind of remedy might not be His will either.
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God may choose to heal alone - through natural processes (which I would think would normally result in a gradual return to health over time). He may choose to heal through a direct supernatural intervention. However He chooses to bring about the healing, God is still in control of the outcome.
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Again, the same logic may be used. Does God’s choice include the choice not to heal? If He is in control of the outcome then if the sickness leads to death, then we must (to use your logic) accept that as God’s outcome. This of course leads to the rather obvious conclusion that the sickness that leads to His “outcome” (death) has God as its source. A conclusion I cannot accept… “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights…”.
So first of all we need to establish whether or not sickness is God’s will.
William
I want to believe!
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