Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » Perfect In Holiness?
| Perfect In Holiness? [message #681] |
Tue, 18 September 2007 05:03  |
 Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
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Jesus said this:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48
Why not take this seriously? Why do many say they cannot stop sinning?
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #682 is a reply to message #681] |
Tue, 18 September 2007 12:01  |
no_dominion_for_death
Messages: 5
Registered: August 2007
Location: Marietta, GA |
Junior Member |
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But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1. Pet. 1:15-16
The simple answer is, people say they can't stop sinning because they want to sin and don't like to think how putrid and depraved they really are deep down inside. The complex answer is, everybody else's excuses and allowances for sin rub off, so they're all really confused about what exactly they're supposed to be doing in their Christian walk.
Try attending a Neo-evangelical Bible study. Just try it. You will never find one that emphasizes personal holiness. The topic is always, 'We need to be there for each other,' or, 'God loves you,' or, 'God knows the tough time you're going through.' If it's not sickly sentimental feel-goodism, it's all about defeat. Where's the victory? Shucks if I know, because the vast majority of church-goers sure don't.
“Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him for ever.”
-- Westminster Assembly, 1647
Westminster Shorter Catechism, Q. 1
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #683 is a reply to message #682] |
Tue, 18 September 2007 14:34 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
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But the worst part is the CHARISMATICS and PENTECOSTALS are bringing forth a steady flow of "you cannot be perfect". I have only known of a handful of Church groups in 33 years in Christ who teach the truth.
Whenever the coming of Jesus is mentioned in the New Testament the call to holiness is there. But modern Christians always emphasize its something you cannot do.
I agree in OURSELVES we cannot. But thats what the Holy Spirit in us is for. Consider this:
12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil.2:12-13
We see in verse 12 people who ALWAYS obeyed. Verse 13 we see HOW they did it! Because GOD was in them. If you have the Holy Spirit God is in you. With him all things are possible.
The NORMAL Christian life is that of overcoming sin.
[Updated on: Tue, 18 September 2007 14:35]
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #684 is a reply to message #683] |
Tue, 18 September 2007 14:43 |
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william
Messages: 1465
Registered: January 2006 |
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Overcoming sin in one’s life is tough when you start out with the mentality that says it's normal to sin!
William
[Updated on: Tue, 18 September 2007 14:48]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #685 is a reply to message #684] |
Tue, 18 September 2007 14:56 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
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Amen! And when is the last time anyone hears a message saying any different?
Part of the great commission never seems to get fullfilled:
19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:19
Jesus said to TEACH all nations to obey his commands! I realize obedience cannot be legalistic. But what Jesus is looking for is out of your love for him.
15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15
Lovers of Jesus will keep his commands. When people say "we all sin every day" are they speaking as a lover of Jesus?
[Updated on: Tue, 18 September 2007 14:56]
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #687 is a reply to message #681] |
Tue, 18 September 2007 15:33 |
no_dominion_for_death
Messages: 5
Registered: August 2007
Location: Marietta, GA |
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It's intriguing how anyone could read anything written by John and come away with the idea that it is normal to sin for a Christian.
Ye are my [Christ's] friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. (John 15:14)
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. (1. John 1:6)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1. John 3:9)
By this we know that we love the children of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (1. John 5:3)
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2. John 9)
He that doeth good is of God. He that doeth evil hath not seen God. (3. John 11)
[Updated on: Tue, 18 September 2007 15:33]
“Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him for ever.”
-- Westminster Assembly, 1647
Westminster Shorter Catechism, Q. 1
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #689 is a reply to message #688] |
Tue, 18 September 2007 16:45 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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Be ye perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48
Notice the two words EVEN AS in this scripture? That means in the same way the Father is perfect we are to be perfect.
While it is true that we are to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ that is different than living without sin. Living without sin is very basic to the Christian life.
There are two levels of the truth of perfection.
1. To live without sin.
2. To grow up into HIM in all things.
To live without sin is the easier of the two. Paul said we were DEAD TO SIN from the time we were baptized into the name of Jesus.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:1-3
To those who think the Christian must continue in sin Paul asks "how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"
It is a tremendous mistake for Christians to think sin is normal to them.
First things first. I am not teaching that man in his own strength can live without sin. Matter of fact in 33 years of my walk I have never heard a Christian teacher say such a thing.
What I do believe and teach is that a Christian is a new creation in Christ. Living in a human body is no excuse for the spirit filled believer to continue sinning.
The proof:
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. Rom. 8:10-12
The mighty Holy Ghost quickens the mortal body to do the will of God. Therefore we are NOT DEBTORS TO THE FLESH.
Here Paul tells us in no uncertain terms the body must be holy.
1: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Rom. 12:1
So you see friends God is not encouraging anyone to wait for a NEW BODY before he can be freed from sin. Rather he tells us that he expects us to offer the BODIES WE NOW HAVE to him holy, and acceptable to him. He calls this our REASONABLE SERVICE.
Not something unusual. Not something unattainable. Just our reasonable service.
It is true that a Christian could sin and then be forgiven of course. But men have set the true standard of Christ so low people are saying they CANNOT cease from sin. Jesus said be perfect as the Father is perfect.
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #690 is a reply to message #689] |
Tue, 18 September 2007 16:50 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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Without a proper understanding of the context of 1 John 1:8 many have rejected the Bible teaching that the Spirit filled Christian can live without sin.
Here is the context.
5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:5-9
If we read verse 8 out of its context it would seem to be saying A Christian is deceiving himself in thinking he can overcome sin. But if we can see that verse 8 is a reference back to verse 6 another story emerges.
Verse 6.
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
John is speaking to those who ALTHOUGH THEY WALK IN DARKNESS claim to be having fellowship with the Lord. Their problem is they claim to know Yeshua but walk in darkness. John says such are liars.
They are going on as if everything is ok though they have sin in their lives.
TO THEM John says:
8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Verses 8-9
You see the difference? Now it becomes clear John is addressing those who actually ARE SINNING and yet refusing to acknowledge it! He say TO THEM "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
They walk in darkness. The darkness is sin present in their lives that they refuse to admit. John tells them if they confess the sin they will be forgiven.
It is a distortion of Johns meaning to say that he taught that if a Christian IN GENERAL says he has no sin he is a liar.
John himself in many scriptures shows the exact opposite that the Christian should EXPECT to live without sin!
The same Apostle says:
3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4
Here John says it is the one who DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS is the liar with no truth in him!
You see John is not contradicting himself. He consistently presents the truth that we ARE TO OBEY the commands of Yeshua.
And IF one WOULD sin if they confess they can be forgiven but if they refuse to admit they are sinning they are liars and deceivers of their own selves.
This is the sound doctrine that appears all throughout the Bible.
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #724 is a reply to message #681] |
Thu, 27 September 2007 17:00 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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Hombre,
You said:
With the knowledge that you have of the Bible, I find it more than likely, that you and everyone else I've ever met sin to one degree or another every day, perhaps not blatent sin, but sin through negligence or sins of omission.
Me:
How is it that some can believe God will heal them of every manner of sickness and disease, meet all their needs by his glorious power and YET he is not strong enough to deliver them from sin?
People that "sin every day" are not overcomers.
Now if it is true that I were just a hypocrite and sin every day how would THAT change what Jesus taught? All it would do is make me one who gets his name blotted out of the book of life.
It would not excuse ANYONE ELSE from being subject to the teaching and commands of Jesus.
You said:
My point being, is that grace, while not being a license to sin, allows us to be human.
Me:
So humans are incapable EVEN WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT to cease from sin? Jesus certainly thought it was NORMAL for his disciples to obey all he commanded them.
7: But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8: And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9: Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10: So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:7-10
It does not make one some Christian superstar to obey all the will of God. They are still to see themselves as "unprofitable servants".
In that we ourselves are not 'perfect' in the absolute sense of the word, how then can we self-righteously judge those who are having difficulty with their passions/ appetites/ emotions, etc, when Christ Himself had so much compassion upon us that He died for us to release us from the responsibility of those things?
Me:
Have I self righteously judged anyone? Or am I proclaiming what JESUS the Son of God said? If it is self righteousness to proclaim his word then all preaching and teaching must stop immediately lest we be arrogant Pharisees.
Jesus did not die JUST to forgive our sins. But ALSO that he might live IN US that we by be AS HE IS.
40: The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
You said:
However, to fail to be 'perfect', IMO, is not the same as teaching others that 'sin' is a normal part of life that one should accept. To me, that is a vast difference.
Me:
The problem with that statement is THIS statement by Jesus. He addressed the issue of a Christian who's works are not perfect.
2: Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Rev. 3:2
So indeed Jesus DOES require our works to be perfect.
Most today hold the doctrine of SIN LESS instead of the Biblical doctrine of SINLESS.
Many who reject once saved always saved teach almost the same thing in effect! Dont sin as much but dont expect to cease from sin either.
[Updated on: Thu, 27 September 2007 17:04]
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #728 is a reply to message #724] |
Thu, 27 September 2007 17:47 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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Hombre,
You must not have read this posting I did earlier. I will repeat it for your benefit:
Without a proper understanding of the context of 1 John 1:8 many have rejected the Bible teaching that the Spirit filled Christian can live without sin.
Here is the context.
5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:5-9
If we read verse 8 out of its context it would seem to be saying A Christian is deceiving himself in thinking he can overcome sin. But if we can see that verse 8 is a reference back to verse 6 another story emerges.
Verse 6.
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
John is speaking to those who ALTHOUGH THEY WALK IN DARKNESS claim to be having fellowship with the Lord. Their problem is they claim to know Yeshua but walk in darkness. John says such are liars.
They are going on as if everything is ok though they have sin in their lives.
TO THEM John says:
8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Verses 8-9
You see the difference? Now it becomes clear John is addressing those who actually ARE SINNING and yet refusing to acknowledge it! He say TO THEM "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
They walk in darkness. The darkness is sin present in their lives that they refuse to admit. John tells them if they confess the sin they will be forgiven.
It is a distortion of Johns meaning to say that he taught that if a Christian IN GENERAL says he has no sin he is a liar.
John himself in many scriptures shows the exact opposite that the Christian should EXPECT to live without sin!
The same Apostle says:
3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4
Here John says it is the one who DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS is the liar with no truth in him!
You see John is not contradicting himself. He consistently presents the truth that we ARE TO OBEY the commands of Yeshua.
And IF one WOULD sin if they confess they can be forgiven but if they refuse to admit they are sinning they are liars and deceivers of their own selves.
This is the sound doctrine that appears all throughout the Bible.
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #729 is a reply to message #681] |
Thu, 27 September 2007 18:25 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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Homre,
You to me:
So in other words, Michael, you haven't ever had a thought of anger, malice or lust since you got saved?
Me:
Again this is not just about ME. If I commit a sin that does not excuse anyone else from the commands of Christ.
What are we told about anger and malice in scripture?
1: Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2: As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Peter 2:1-2
We are to lay inward sins aside same as outward. And notice this is written to NEWBORN BABES! It is not assumed by Jesus that a NEWBORN BABE cannot do this.
You said:
...another of the problems that I have with your idea of using the words of Jesus to speak of your doctrine of 'sinless perfection', is that you are quoting verses like Rev. 2, that refer to 'works', which IMO, is out of context with reference to this issue
Me:
LOL! I am using the WORDS OF JESUS to teach sinless perfection? Well yes I plead guilty to that!
Works are what a man does in obedience to Christ. He does so according to faith. Works certainly includes those things you mentioned. Why would you assume I do not believe those things are our works?
Yet our works certainly includes our RESPONSE to the commands given in scripture by Jesus or the Apostles.
Here Abrahams WORK was a direct act of obedience to A COMMAND OF YHWH.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:19-24
You said:
PS: Good luck convincing God about that, I guess that you really don't need Jesus after your conversion since you're perfect now.
Again you have apparently not read the posts I put up to start the thread.
I said earlier:
But the worst part is the CHARISMATICS and PENTECOSTALS are bringing forth a steady flow of "you cannot be perfect". I have only known of a handful of Church groups in 33 years in Christ who teach the truth.
Whenever the coming of Jesus is mentioned in the New Testament the call to holiness is there. But modern Christians always emphasize its something you cannot do.
I agree in OURSELVES we cannot. But thats what the Holy Spirit in us is for. Consider this:
12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil.2:12-13
We see in verse 12 people who ALWAYS obeyed. Verse 13 we see HOW they did it! Because GOD was in them. If you have the Holy Spirit God is in you. With him all things are possible.
This is my doctrine. I get it from the word of God.
To say that I think I dont need Jesus to do this is either totally misunderstanding what I have said or distorting it one of the two or maybe both.
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #737 is a reply to message #729] |
Thu, 27 September 2007 22:11 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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Hombre,
I have never said I have not sinned since my conversion. Yes I have. But what I am trying to get you to see is that this is not Gods plan for his people.
Normal Christianity is that no one would sin. Its that simple. And there is Gods mercy that IF one sins they may confess and be restored.
You:
...and I agree with you in principle about the fact that when one has the Holy Spirit, all things are possible. That is a great doctrine.
I'm asking you about the reality though.
Me:
Thats the purpose of teaching sound doctrine. To get the truth from the printed page into the heart.
You:
BTW: have you ever doubted, even for a split second, a prayer that you made?
...all things not of faith are sin, you know.
Like I said before, Michael, you're not really being truthful with yourself, or with us about yourself.
Me:
Is this a discussion area for Bible issues? Why is this doctrine just about what I have done? You want to ignore what Jesus taught and hope it will go away by pointing out some area of sin in me. I have said plainly if I am a hypocrite I will be lost.
In no way is anyone exempted from the Biblical doctrine of holiness if I am found a sinner.
If you want to continue trying to find sin in me go for it. If you find it I can repent and walk in the light so that would be for my benefit.
Have you no interest in THE SCRIPTURES I HAVE POSTED on this matter?
Is an OVERCOMER one who sins every day?
Is an OVERCOMER one who has no control over himself?
Be advised that only THE OVERCOMERS will escape the second death.....Lake Of Fire.
11: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev. 2:11
You said:
BTW: if you had reached a state of sinless perfection, there is a distinct possibility that you would no longer be walking among us, or at the least, you would be demonstrating the Word with signs following.
Me:
And perhaps the reason why that is still rare among Gods people is because they (or we) have not taken the teachings of Christ in their fullness. Notice what John said:
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1 John 3:22
Many faith teachers have preached faith to the high Heavens year after year with little results. Could it be the teaching that "none can overcome sin" has short circuited faith?
You said:
Your method breeds frustration and guilt.
Me:
It is not my METHOD. I have given abundance of scripture from Jesus and the Apostles. It is my doctrine because it is the only doctrine they gave us concerning overcoming.
If it produces guilt that is a good thing. Perhaps someone will understand Yeshua is calling them to holiness! Perhaps then they will wake up and fight the good fight of faith we are expected to fight!
If there is no sin in ones life guess what? There will be no guilt to harbor!
You:
BTW..what is this thing you've got goin' on with 'Yeshua' now?
...is that somehow cooler to say than Jesus?
Me:
Yeshua is the name our Savior was born with. I honor it as the highest name in the Universe. No reason for anyone to be offended by my preference to use it as I desire.
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| Re: Perfect In Holiness? [message #739 is a reply to message #737] |
Fri, 28 September 2007 02:50 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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Anyone want to make it in the rapture?
Here are the kind of people that will.
23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5:23
25: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5:25-27
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:11-13
10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11: Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12: Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14: Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 2 Peter 3:11-14
Whenever the coming of Jesus is mentioned the call to holiness is there! If you want to be in the rapture this is how you must be.
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