Home » Theological Doctrine » Eschatology » Gog and Magog
| Gog and Magog [message #13495] |
Mon, 29 June 2020 19:09  |
 Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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I did a thread on the bridegroom delaying his coming a while ago. Some people responded with comments and questions. That got me thinking more about it. Then shortly after I put Bro Freemans NT theology notes on Gog and Magog up which got me thinking even more.
I wanted to put all my thoughts and material together in one place so I pulled all my material as well as some of the info in the comments and Bro Freemans stuff and put it all together. I thought I would repost it here. I don't know if anyone or everyone agrees with me and I guess it doesn't really matter. I just wanted all my thoughts in one easy to read place.
So it consists of my thoughts on the place in the endtimes we are in. I'm going to do a recap of the theology notes on the subject (along with a little bit from me) as it is very relevant to my subject. The post following will be my thoughts all in one place.
[Updated on: Mon, 29 June 2020 19:12]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Gog and Magog [message #13496 is a reply to message #13495] |
Mon, 29 June 2020 19:11  |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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The Ezek 38-39 War
It is prophesied in Ezek. 38-39
Joel 2/20 also makes a reference to it.
It is possible that Ps. 83 refers to this war as well.
The Gog war has never been fulfilled and is right in context to end times. Ezek. 38/8
Who are the Ezek 38-39 Gog and Magog?
Ezek 37 refers to the re-establishment of Israel as a sovereign nation that was fulfilled in 1948. Some believe this refers to the restoration of Israel from Babylon in 539 BC. But Isaiah 11/11-12 says God is going to restore Israel "the second time"
Ezek 38-39 show a northern confederacy with her allies and their invasion of Israel.
Ezek 38/2 According to my professor the vs should be translated
Gog of the land of Magog prince of the land of Rosh
Vs 2
Rosh is Russia
Meshech is Moscow- represents European Russia
Tubal is Tobolsk- Asiatic Russia
vs 5
Persia is Iran
Cush is Ethiopia
Put Libya
Gomer various views
Togarmah Turkey
If the Ps. 83 war in part of this confederacy it would include Jordan, Lebanon, Gaza and Syria/Iraq
There is another reference to Gog and Magog along with Ezek. 38-39
and that is in Rev. 20/8 which shows that out of the unregenerate nations deceived by the devil at the end of the millennium will be a group called Gog and Magog.
There are a number of different views as to who the two Gog and Magog are
1. Gog and Magog of Ezek. 38-39 refer to the battle of Armageddon. Rev. 16, 19. This view is that Armageddon with Gog and Magog takes place at the close of the tribulation and at the beginning of the Millennium
The biblical answer to this view.
a. The Ezek 38 battle has Gog as head of this army. At the battle of Armageddon, the anti-christ is in charge. Rev. 19/19.
b. The Ezek 38 Gog battle has definite allies named with them. At Armageddon, it says all nations are there. Zech. 14/2, 12/3, Joel 3/2, Zeph. 3/8,
c. Gog comes from the north. Armageddon comes from all the earth.
d. Gog invades at a time when Israel is dwelling securely. Ezek. 38/11-16
e. Gog comes to despoil Israel. Ezek. 38/11-13. At Armageddon, the emphasis is on destroying. Zech /141-3 Joel 2/3, Rev. 19/19
f. Anti-Christ and Armageddon are destroyed at the close of the tribulation. Gog is destroyed on the mountains of Israel
2. The Gog and Magog of Ezek 38 are the Gog and Magog of Rev. 20/8 and the battle takes place at the close of the Millennium.
The biblical answer to this view.
a. Ezek states it is a northern confederacy while in Rev. 20 it is the whole earth.
b. In Ezek, there is no mention of the binding of Satan Rev. 20/1-2
c. The invasion of Ezek 38-39 takes place after the restoration of Israel (Ezek 37) and before the Millennium (Ezek. 40-48)
d. Ezek 38 shows it takes 7 months to bury the dead etc. In Rev. 20 the army is devoured by a fire from heaven.
e. The Ezek battle is followed by 7 yrs of cleaning up while the Rev. 20 battle is followed by the new heavens and earth.
f. The same terms are used (Gog / Magog) because the purpose of both armies is the same. That is to destroy the people of God. In Ezek it is to destroy Israel. In Rev., it is to destroy the church.
3. Some equate Gog and Magog (Ezek 38) with previous invasions in the past.
Eg Babylon, Egypt, Syria etc.
The biblical answer to this view.
a. This doesn't equate with what we know of the past. No invader in the past has ever been destroyed on the mountains of Israel but in their own land and by others.
b. Ezek. 38/8 states that the destruction of Gog & Magog will take place in the latter days.
4. In the middle of the Tribulation
Some (including my professor HEF) believe Gog and Magog has to occur in the middle of the tribulation. They base this on Daniel 11/40, 44 and some other vs. They believe Gog invades at a time of peace so it must to be when anti-christ has a covenant of peace with Israel. Gog invades Antichrist destroys him and then destroys Israel himself.
There are two problems with that.
a. If it is mid-trib then there aren't 7 yrs left Ezek. 39/9
b. Gog is destroyed supernaturally by God not by anti-christ. Ezek. 38/18,22
5. The biblical view.
a. Rev. 20 and Ezek 38 Gog/Magog are not the same.
b. Ezek 38-39 show a northern confederacy with her allies and their invasion of Israel. It is not the battle of Armageddon which includes all nations.
c. The Ezek 38-39 Gog and Magog cannot be in the middle of the tribulation.
Ezek. 39/9 show following the war there is a 7 yr period. There is not enough time left in the world for it to be mid-trib.
d. It is unlikely that Gog's invasion is at the beginning of the trib. That is exactly when Anti-christ makes a peace agreement with them to start the trib and the 7 yr countdown to Armageddon. In my opinion, it has to be before the tribulation. There is too much else going on the trib and this is a standalone event that has to occur for a number of reasons.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Gog and Magog [message #13497 is a reply to message #13495] |
Mon, 29 June 2020 19:26 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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Matthew 25 The parable of the 10 virgins.
Chap 25 follows right after chap 24 as Matt. didn't write in chapters. Chap 24 is dealing with endtime events and chap. 25 follows right along with that. Chap 25 is a parable of Christ returning and taking his bride.
25/5 It says clearly on the page the bridegroom will tarry and delay his coming. I believe we are now in the time the bridegroom has tarried and delayed his coming.
It seems to me that so many years have passed without anything really significant happening. I think things have happened and are happening but we don't see the things Jesus spoke of . We have all believed for a long time that we are in the endtimes yet where do we see in any significant way Matt 24 & Luke 21 etc. end time events happening. Wars signs in the heavens pestilences etc. let alone persecution. Obviously these things are happening and perhaps increasing but where do we see them in light of Matt 24, Luke 21 etc
I believe we are living in the end times.
But the period of the endtimes we are living in is . . .
"The time the bridegroom has tarried and delayed his coming Matt. 25/1-13"
It says in vs 5 right in context to the return of the Lord that he will delay his coming. We are now in that time. It seems to me that so many years have passed without anything really significant happening. Well I think something significant did happen and will happen.
The Holding back of the war of Gog and Magog
In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon mainly to root out the PLO. When they did so they found mountains of Soviet military equipment stored there. Which came as a complete surprise to them. As most of you probably know for an army of any size to travel any distance all their equipment has to be moved into place. Its a huge logistical problem. Moving the men into place is the easy part. The Russians did this without anyone in the west or Israel knowing about it.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the State of Israel reports
"During the operation `Peace for Galilee,` as the Israeli forces advanced through Lebanon in July 1982, they made an amazing discovery. Around the village of Saida, the largest secret military base in the world was uncovered. It consisted of miles of steel reinforced bunkers tunneled out of the hillside. Inside was crammed massive quantities of Soviet made arms & ammunition. It exceeded by far the highest previous intelligence estimates. I.D.F. units gathered 4170 tons (some 1,500 truckloads) of ammunition; hundreds of combat-vehicles; tanks & armored carriers; thousands of weapons, artillery & rocket launchers, plus other sophisticated devices.
These arms & stores were far in excess of P.L.O. requirements. Secret documents, & maps found in the Command Post clearly revealed that the Soviets planned invasion of the Middle East on the 4th August 1982. The I.D.F. averted this Soviet invasion by just a few weeks."
About that time . . .
A man who I believe "at times" stood in the office of a prophet stood up and said by the word of the Lord "I am turning the clock back to give you time to prepare" (tape was called Give me this Mountain. Prophesy was at the end of the message) I believe the clock being turned back referred to the holding back of the War of Gog and Magog. The Russian military equipment was there in preparation for that war. One of the ways that God brings his purposes to pass or to bring his will out of the spiritual realm into this world is through the prophetic utterance of prophets and apostles. That was the case here. Many times in the bible when God spoke through his prophets he had more in mind and a greater scope than the immediate prophecy suggested. This is the case here.
I put another clip of that prophecy at the bottom of the note here. On my computer it will only download and then I have to play it.
I believe we are in the time "that the bridegroom has tarried and delayed his coming". It began with the holding back of the this war (Gog and Magog) and this time will end with this war going forward.
While I don't believe that time (Gog war) is here yet I do believe it is most definitely on the horizon. I think end time events in the world have been moving forward yet at the same time we don't see the events Jesus in Matt 24 spoke of for eg. I think those events are coming. This Gog war occurs for definite reasons. It will open the door for the end time events spoken of by Jesus to begin to take place.
The Ezek. 38-39 Gog war
1. it will happen in the end times 38/8
2. God himself will supernaturally destroy Gog 38/18-19
3. There will be a great earthquake 38/19-20
4. God will cause the invading armies to fight against each other
5. God will bring pestilence and blood on them and then rain on them hailstones fire and brimstone
6. All but 1/6 of the invading armies will be destroyed. 85% destroyed.
There are several reasons for the Ezek 38-39 war of Gog and Magog
1. To show the world that he is God he is there and that he is Israel's God
Ezek. 38/23 39/6-7
2. To destroy Russian military power. Russia has to be removed as a military power. Turkey and Iran as well. The antichrist is going to arise into a place prepared for him. That is not entirely supernatural. Russia (along with others) has to be removed.
3. To punish Russia for its treatment of the Jews in particular and the multitudes of minorities in general. God is the judge of all the earth and he does bring judgment. One issue for judgment (among many) was the deliberate starvation by Stalin and Russia of millions of Ukrainians in 1932-33
4. The ancient God of the Hebrews is going to show himself by supernaturally destroying the invading army. There are several reasons for that.
a. To turn Israel back to their ancient God. Not savingly of course. That comes later. (Zech. 13/1) But the entire nation is going to see the supernatural hand of God on their behalf. Even the most hardened atheist will have to admit the God who called Abraham out of Babylon and spoke out of the burning bush and delivered Israel out of the bondage of Egypt has showed himself. Following this war he will have their full attention. Ezek. 39/7, 22
b. So Israel can build their temple and re institute the sacrifices. The world and the Muslim nations seeing the ancient God of Israel showing himself will back off and Israel will rebuild their temple.
c. To clearly remind Israel (and the world) why Israel was taken out of their land /fallen by the sword/ given into the hand of their enemies was because of their sin and uncleanness. Ezek. 39/21-29
5. To turn the world toward a more supernatural worldview. The entire world is going to see this supernatural judgment. 39/21,23 There are tidal waves of the occult coming especially to the western world. This war will start to prepare them for that. I also think evolution is going to be replaced with something ancient. Something partly science and partly mystical.
Following the war
I think it is this war that opens the door for end time events to begin to move forward again It will start with the persecution Jesus spoke of in Luke 21/21.
Followed by the beginning of sorrows wars nuclear wars rumors of wars pestilence signs in the heavens famines earthquakes riots lawlessness on every hand sin abounding fear everywhere. That of course is just the secular world. The same issues will be in the religious world. Jesus said all this was just the beginning of sorrows. This is followed by even greater and increasing sorrows then the tribulation and the great tribulation (second half)
Persecution of Jews and Christians will begin Following this war and rebuilding of the temple a unreasoning resentment toward Jews and Christians will begin. Luke 21/12. Eventually culminating in an implacable hatred.
Persecution will compel Jews back into Israel
The persecution of the Jews will be to move his ancient people back into their land. It's a terrible thing to have to say but I believe that ultimately there won't be any Jews left anywhere outside the national borders of Israel. Without some sort of impetus most simply won't move. Unfortunately they will have plenty of impetus. The reason for this of course is that one of the major end time purposes of God is to bring his people into salvation. Zech. 13/1
The persecution of Christians will be so God can cleanse his church. He is going to have a church without spot or wrinkle. Luke 3/17 Before he deals with the world he has to deal with his his own house. God is going to cleanse his church of sin & worldliness and set things in proper order.
The Ezek. 38-39 war of Gog and Magog isn't here yet but it is coming. Its on the horizon and following it endtime events will begin to move forward again.
[Updated on: Mon, 29 June 2020 19:30]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Gog and Magog [message #13801 is a reply to message #13800] |
Fri, 21 January 2022 19:05 |
douggg
Messages: 4
Registered: January 2022 |
Junior Member |
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Hi William, thanks for the welcome. I am 73 and have been studying eschatology for over 50 years.
It is a general practice to refer to the arch villain of the end times as "the Antichrist". But that is a almost universal error.
The function role of Christ is to be the King of Israel, descended from King David. If you read John 12:12-13 and Mark 15:32, it is "Christ the King of Israel"
The "Anti" Christ is to be instead of and against Jesus the true Christ and rightful king of Israel, who came in the name of the Lord.
So when it come to the arch villain of the end times, we must approach it as a matter of function roles - just as we consider senator and president as different functional roles - even though it may be the same person.
In sequence, the person as the little horn becomes leader of the EU (the end times variant of the Roman Empire). Before the Gog/Magog event.
Then after Gog/Magog, he enters into the middle east under the guise of peace maker, as the prince who shall come, which the Jews will at that time perceive him to be messiah.
The false prophet anoints him as the King of Israel (coming in his own name), which makes the person the Antichrist functional role. Phony King of Israel.
In that functional role, he will have the law read to the nation of Israel from the temple mount (the place of God's choosing from Deuteronomy 31:9-13) to begin the seven years. It is not a peace treaty that has been popularized by what is in Daniel 8, about him destroying many by peace.
The 7 years comes from a requirement Moses made of all future leaders of Israel, in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.
Around 3 years into the 7 years, the Antichrist commits the "transgression of desolation", an act found in Daniel 8:12-13, the act of 2Thesslanoins2:4. Revealing himself to be the man of sin, and not the messiah after all, it will end his functional role as the Anti-christ.
The revealed man of sin will be killed for his audacious act, Ezekiel 28:1-10, and after his soul goes to hell, God in disdain for the person - a Jew - brings him back to life in Isaiah 14:18-20.
His soul restored to his lifeless body, is the deception that God sends in 2Thessalonians2, to them who initially believe his claim of having achieved God-hood.
No longer the Antichrist, because the Jews will reject him and his claim, the person upon being brought back to life is incarnated by the spirit of the original serpent beast of the garden of eden, making the person the beast.
As the beast functional role, he will be "dictator" of the EU, and the world, until Jesus returns.
The person will be a Jew and also descended from the Julio-Claudian bloodline, the kings of Revelation 17:10-11.
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| Re: Gog and Magog [message #13803 is a reply to message #13802] |
Sun, 23 January 2022 13:55 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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Welcome, Doug.
Did you get here from Christian forums? I seem to recall someone with that user name there. Just wondering.
It will take me a while to think over what you said.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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