Home » Discussion Area » Rant/Rave » Were you there the night of the ax murder?
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| Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #24] |
Thu, 02 February 2006 04:22  |
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 william
Messages: 1466
Registered: January 2006 |
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OK, this is the bad-memories-that-need-healing section.
Sorry for the distasteful post title but hey, it got your attention!
I'm talking about the night when Bill Garner was removed as pastor of Faith Assembly. Actually he was removed already and the rest of the assembly was going to get an opportunity to hear "why" or some such nonsense. I was there and we were told it was because of "sin" but no details concerning what "sin" he had committed were forthcoming. Oh we heard about how he hadn't preached on faith for six months and that his messages were all on "love" but no details of the "sin"--I WANT THE DIRT AND I WANT IT NOW!
Yikes, I get upset whenever I think of that night--I've got to burn those notes!
OVERCOME NOW, OVERcome now, overcome now.
moulder
I want to believe!
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1484 is a reply to message #24] |
Wed, 26 March 2008 01:54  |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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I remember that incident, and let me say, I am no expert on the matter and don't claim to be. This is how I remember it, however. It directly affected us in GR because Jerry Ervin taught there, and he was booted about the same time as Bill. I went down to FA myself to hear first hand why he was kicked out. I grilled one of the leaders of the church about it because it did not seem right. The way it was explained to me, there was no actual immorality involved. Bill stopped believing in the "end-time manifested sons of God", which was a fad teaching at the time. Bill also supported Jerry, who somehow was seen as the bad guy because he was too loving or did not teach what HF did and broke some of the rules that were not really supposed to be rules (TV, birth control, etc...). There were a couple of other reasons that did not seem like Biblical grounds for removal from office. Some people were in a "we've got to get rid of the Achens" mentality and wanted to purge the church of anything corrupting it. Bill and Jerry were both easy targets. When they were removed, it looked like a railroad job to me. But what do I know? Maybe there was more sin going on than I was told, but I doubt it. I believe that an evil spirit was at work, trying to thwart the move of the Holy Spirit that had started there.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1529 is a reply to message #1512] |
Sun, 30 March 2008 03:48 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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"Perhaps some of you missed my post on 'medical mistakes'. Doctors themselves tell us that millions have died from medical mistakes. The number mentioned is approximately 1/4 million deaths annually linked to medical mistakes. This info comes from the Journal of the American Medical Association, JAMA, one of the most highly respected medical journals in the world.
Jer. 17:5 - 7 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
2 Chronicles 16
12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign."
DeWayne, it is disturbing that you still think this way after all these years. Odd that you put this post into a thread that was totally unrelated. You need to move on and mature past this doctors=unbelief kind of thinking that HEF taught. The ASA passage was talking about occultic, magic healers that would use Satanic methods of healing. It does not refer to medical doctors who have studied how the human body works. We must not trust doctors, but neither must we trust our mechanics. Trust the Lord and do your part to cooperate with the way the Lord made the human body to heal itself. I don't care how many people die at the hands of doctors. Many, many more than that are helped by doctors and saved from death or dismemberment. Ultimately, the praise goes to the Lord our healer. Many people die on US highways every year, but that does not mean that we should not drive on them.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1564 is a reply to message #1560] |
Sun, 06 April 2008 13:54 |
Mark L
Messages: 858
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
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"The ASA passage was talking about occultic, magic healers that would use Satanic methods of healing."
I don't think there is any basis in History or Bible or maybe even common sense other than one mans opinion for that. There was a great deal of sophistication among ancient peoples regarding medicine and the human body. The bible calls them doctors because that's what they were.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1566 is a reply to message #1564] |
Sun, 06 April 2008 14:06 |
Mark L
Messages: 858
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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Slightly off topic here as it has nothing to do with axe murders but . . . It just seems to be the rage in academe as well as a wide spread belief in our society that ancient peoples were superstitious savages. The bible says man started off intelligent and it has all been downhill from there. We are a pale shadow of what God created in the garden. There were ancient civilizations that "far" exceeded ours.
With all our technology today we could not build the egyptian pyramids. Lots to say here. Very interesting subject. Wish I had time.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1571 is a reply to message #1564] |
Mon, 07 April 2008 19:01 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Hardbones says, "I don't think there is any basis in History or Bible or maybe even common sense other than one mans opinion for that. There was a great deal of sophistication among ancient peoples regarding medicine and the human body. The bible calls them doctors because that's what they were." "Slightly off topic here as it has nothing to do with axe murders but . . . It just seems to be the rage in academe as well as a wide spread belief in our society that ancient peoples were superstitious savages. The bible says man started off intelligent and it has all been downhill from there. We are a pale shadow of what God created in the garden. There were ancient civilizations that "far" exceeded ours.
With all our technology today we could not build the egyptian pyramids. Lots to say here. Very interesting subject. Wish I had time."
You are wrong, Hardbones. Egyptian and near-eastern cultures were permeated with pagan, occultic superstitions and rituals. Yes, they were technologically advanced for their time. Some of the doctors might have learned a little bit about how the body works, but there is no question that they used occultic practices to perform their healing. The word "Rapha" was sometimes used to refer to occultic healers. The Lord taught the Hebrews, "Don't go to those false doctors that serve pagan gods. Stay away from the magic healers that heal in the name of Ra (or some other pagan god). I am the Lord your rapha." He was not opposing medical science in any way. He wanted His people to see that He was the source of healing, not the false gods. All "doctors" and medical practices were tied in one way or another to false gods.
They were not "superstitious savages", but they were indeed superstitious, and regardless of their pyramid-building they did not have the benefit of the accumulated study of the human body that we have nowadays. Asa did not consult physicians who understood microbiology and blood circulation and the nature of infection. He consulted "healers" who made up for their lack of understanding by using magic powders and formulas. This is why his actions were such an offense to God.
Doctors are human and make mistakes like everyone else, and we need to trust the Lord to heal our bodies. Nowhere in scripture are we told that His healing precludes the use of medical science. This is where HEF went off base, by adding a rule about avoiding medical science that scripture does not teach.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1572 is a reply to message #1560] |
Mon, 07 April 2008 19:15 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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DeWayne said, "I'm still waiting for you to quote God's Word where he heals through doctors."
You are making an argument from silence. The fact that Scripture does not specifically say, "God heals through doctors" does not mean that it is forbidden. There are a lot of things that we do that are not specifically endorsed in scripture. Scripture does not say that he prospers people using an economic stimulus package from the government. Therefore, should you send your check back to where it came? It does not say that he keeps your teeth healthy with the use of toothbrush and toothpaste. Therefore, should you not brush your teeth? It does not say that we should proclaim the gospel using the internet and radio. Therefore, should we neglect those mediums for that task?
If Scripture does not forbid the use of means for healing, then we should be free to avail ourselves of them unless He specifically speaks to us otherwise in a given situation. To make a rule that says "doctors = unbelief" is adding to scripture.
DeWayne said, "You seem to avoid God's Word like a plague."
Quite the contrary, I am much more familiar with the Word now than I was under "the faith message". Back then the teaching was sometimes helpful, but far too imbalanced.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1578 is a reply to message #1572] |
Thu, 10 April 2008 21:32 |
Mark L
Messages: 858
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
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Well I don't know where you get your info from but I would completely disagree with you.
This for eg.
Asa did not consult physicians who understood microbiology and blood circulation and the nature of infection.
My point is that they did. They had extensive understanding of the human body as well as drugs and the spiritual and physical causes of sickness. They also understood how to use spiritual and occult means to get healed. Some of the ancient cultures even drilled teeth and did some brain surgery. I would agree with you that a lot of the ancient world saw reality & medicine through occult and spiritual eyes but that was because they understood it not because they were superstitious.
Mankind has devolved not evolved. We have gone downhill not uphill. I think animals in the garden were more intelligent than people are today. (no comments from the peanut gallery here) My point to the pyramids was that they were built by a technologically advanced civilization. And they weren't burial tombs for the pharaohs either! Palestine in Asa's time was directly on the trading routes between the civilizations. Information would have travelled with the all the trade. There was a lot of info in the ancient world about science & especially drugs. There is simply no credible reason to believe that they didn't understand the human body and the effect of drugs upon it.
Asa died about 100 yrs after Solomon died. You don't think Solomon's wisdom would have included the human body and that it wouldn't have been passed down only a 100 yrs later?
My basic point is . . . they may not have had X-ray machines and MRI's but they weren't savages either.
I would also disagree with your assertion that they were not physicians but magicians. (my word) The bible calls them doctors because that is what they were. I understand your disagreement with the verse being interpreted that way because if it stands it really puts paid to the notion that God heals through doctors.
You said
"Nowhere in scripture are we told that His healing precludes the use of medical science." That my dear bro. is an argument from silence.
I'm not really interested in discussing that aspect to it though.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1579 is a reply to message #1578] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 01:00 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Hardbones said, "My point is that they did. They had extensive understanding of the human body as well as drugs and the spiritual and physical causes of sickness. They also understood how to use spiritual and occult means to get healed. Some of the ancient cultures even drilled teeth and did some brain surgery. I would agree with you that a lot of the ancient world saw reality & medicine through occult and spiritual eyes but that was because they understood it not because they were superstitious."
I would like to read your primary sources for this assertion that they understood microbiology (germs) and infection. If you are correct I would like to learn more about it. I was a history major in college, and although ancient near eastern cultures were not my specialty, I never came across any evidence that the Egyptians understood microbiology. They drilled teeth and tried to relieve pressure on the brain, yes, and they had some other such medical knowledge, but they still approached healing with demonic and superstitious methods in spite of their science. You could not detach the healing practice from demonic methods at that time. The first civilization to do so was Greece in the classical era, but that was after Asa's time.
Mankind has devolved not evolved. We have gone downhill not uphill. We are no more fallen than Adam and Eve were after they sinned. Our fallenness comes from sin, and all mankind since the garden of Eden has been corrupted by it. We are no more or less intelligent as a whole than the Egyptians or any other ancient culture. I think animals in the garden were more intelligent than people are today. (no comments from the peanut gallery here) My point to the pyramids was that they were built by a technologically advanced civilization. And they weren't burial tombs for the pharaohs either! Some were, some were not. It depends on the time period and location in which they were built, the purposes of the Pharoah who built them, etc... I agree that they were amazing structures. Palestine in Asa's time was directly on the trading routes between the civilizations. Information would have travelled with the all the trade. There was a lot of info in the ancient world about science & especially drugs. There is simply no credible reason to believe that they didn't understand the human body and the effect of drugs upon it. Their understanding was advanced for its time, but extremely limited by our standards today. Some of the most advanced ancient sciences still "bled" people in order to relieve pain, and there was this whole idea about yellow bile causing one ailment, black bile causing another, etc... Sometimes they came to accurate conclusions, such as the connection between cleanliness and health.
Asa died about 100 yrs after Solomon died. You don't think Solomon's wisdom would have included the human body and that it wouldn't have been passed down only a 100 yrs later?
My basic point is . . . they may not have had X-ray machines and MRI's but they weren't savages either. Certainly not savages. I agree with you about that.
I would also disagree with your assertion that they were not physicians but magicians. (my word) The bible calls them doctors because that is what they were. I understand your disagreement with the verse being interpreted that way because if it stands it really puts paid to the notion that God heals through doctors. Hardbones, there is no word for doctor in the Hebrew, only "healer", as you know. Healing was always ascribed to some deity. For Asa to seek the help of Egyptian doctors was to give credence to the false gods that they claimed gave them power to heal. It was a slap in the face of the Lord our Healer.
"Nowhere in scripture are we told that His healing precludes the use of medical science." That my dear bro. is an argument from silence. Several posters have asserted that God's healing precludes medical science, and I simply pointed out that there is no scriptural basis for such an assertion. If scripture does not state it as a rule, neither should we.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1591 is a reply to message #1579] |
Sat, 12 April 2008 23:31 |
Mark L
Messages: 858
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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If we got away from discussing this as a side issue to healing it would probably be much more productive and interesting. Anything to do with history fascinates me especially ancient history. Which was why I commented in the first place. Probably best to just leave it at that.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1594 is a reply to message #1591] |
Sun, 13 April 2008 03:43 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Sure, I love to talk history, too. His story. Maybe you should start a separate thread or send me an e-mail with some sources on it. I would love it.
You are right, the direction of this post does not lend itself to good discussion about ancient medical practice. It started with Moulder asking about the night that Bill Garner was removed from being pastor. Does anyone else have insight into that situation? I have for years thought of it as a classic example of everything that was wrong with that church.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #1856 is a reply to message #1572] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 16:33 |
DeWayne
Messages: 82
Registered: August 2006 |
Member |
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| jisamazed wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 14:15 |
DeWayne said, "I'm still waiting for you to quote God's Word where he heals through doctors."
You are making an argument from silence. The fact that Scripture does not specifically say, "God heals through doctors" does not mean that it is forbidden. There are a lot of things that we do that are not specifically endorsed in scripture. Scripture does not say that he prospers people using an economic stimulus package from the government. Therefore, should you send your check back to where it came? It does not say that he keeps your teeth healthy with the use of toothbrush and toothpaste. Therefore, should you not brush your teeth? It does not say that we should proclaim the gospel using the internet and radio. Therefore, should we neglect those mediums for that task?
If Scripture does not forbid the use of means for healing, then we should be free to avail ourselves of them unless He specifically speaks to us otherwise in a given situation. To make a rule that says "doctors = unbelief" is adding to scripture.
DeWayne said, "You seem to avoid God's Word like a plague."
Quite the contrary, I am much more familiar with the Word now than I was under "the faith message". Back then the teaching was sometimes helpful, but far too imbalanced.
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To say that God heals through Doctors is a total fabrication. It is made up by the religious system of unbelief. There are many instances of physical healing in the Bible but not a trace of what you are insinuating. Argument from silence? The Bible is far from being silent about divine healing OR going to doctors. They are not the same, not even close.
DeWayne
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| Re: Were you there the night of the ax murder? [message #3523 is a reply to message #24] |
Sun, 28 September 2008 15:32 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Gary,
I think a big part of 'figuring it out' is the willingness to reconize and admit our mistakes, repent, and seek God's help to avoid making them again in our present walk with Him. It looks to me like you're on the right track to 'figuring it out'...Though there's some things left to decipher through...
And hindsight is 20-20, even when wearing rose colored glasses...
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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