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| Teaching on Jesus Becoming Sin [message #9021] |
Mon, 09 July 2012 16:41  |
 james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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I am not raising this issue to open a can of worms or to critize any ministry, my purpose is to, hopefully, get someone to share from their teaching notes or from scripture concerning Jesus being a "sin offering" (as I believe) versus becoming a sinner on the cross on our behalf. We've all heard this taught before and we know of the JDS heresy (and this is probably included in the teachings of those who believe in Jesus being forsaken by The Father and becoming a sinner on the cross and being subject to Satan for 3 days in hell.)
I was watching a minister each morning last week at 5:30 AM who was doing a series of messages on God's Love and I was being edified over the week of watching...until he, while sharing about the Samaritian woman at the well declared that Jesus became an adulterer on her behalf and every other sin known in order for God's wrath to be appeased. He used 2 Corinthians 5:21 as his proof text. "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us.."
My memory of what Bro. Freeman (and many others I'm sure) taught us from the Hebrew and Greek was that the word sin used there in that verse was always translated as 'sin-offering'.
I did a word study and went back to Leviticus to where God instituted the various offerings including the sin offering in chapter 4. Also in Hebrews chapter 9 gives insight to what Jesus did. We're told in verse 14 He was without spot(there are many scriptures that state that He, Jesus, was without spot or blemish, holy, pure, a substitute on our behalf.)
My conviction has been since the time of my salvation that Jesus NEVER sinned or became a sinner (including while on the Cross), and the simple easy reason to remember without a long theologial discussion was that a sinner couldn't pay the penalty or we'd all be able to pay our own debt.
Anyone want to share on this? Is my thinking and convictions right on this very important teaching error(imo)?
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Teaching on Jesus Becoming Sin [message #9022 is a reply to message #9021] |
Tue, 10 July 2012 00:36  |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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The Complete Jewish Bible reads:
5:21 -
God made this sinless man be a sin offering on our behalf, so that in union with him we might fully share in God's righteousness."
The Adam Clarke Commentary
Verse 21. For he hath made him to be sin for us
„ο½¼η γ½ο½„αα¼αρ„ια½ …Ϥερη¼‰½α¼αρ„ια½εϤοιη ƒε½. He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent,) a sin-offering for us. The word α¼αρ„ια occurs here twice: in the first place it means sin, i.e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said, He knew no sin, i.e. was innocent; for not to know sin is the same as to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of nothing against one's self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to be unimpeachable.
In the second place, it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the chattaah and chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by α¼αρ„ια in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin. Had our translators attended to their own method of translating the word in other places where it means the same as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage which has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were imputed to him, and reckoned as his own. One of these writers translates the passage thus: Deus Christum pro maximo peccatore habuit, ut nos essemus maxime justi, God accounted Christ the greatest of sinners, that we might be supremely righteous. Thus they have confounded sin with the punishment due to sin. Christ suffered in our stead; died for us; bore our sins, (the punishment due to them,) in his own body upon the tree, for the Lord laid upon him the iniquities of us all; that is, the punishment due to them; explained by making his soul-his life, an offering for sin; and healing us by his stripes.
But that it may be plainly seen that sin-offering, not sin, is the meaning of the word in this verse, I shall set down the places from the Septuagint where the word occurs; and where it answers to the Hebrew words already quoted; and where our translators have rendered correctly what they render here incorrectly. In EXODUS, Exodus 29:14,36: LEVITICUS, Leviticus 4:3,8,20,21, 24,25, 29,32-34 ; Leviticus 5:6,7,8,9, 11,12 ; ; 6:17,25,30 ; ; 7:7,37; Leviticus 8:2,14; ; 9:2,3,7,8, 10,15, 22 ; ; 10:16,17,19 ; Leviticus 12:6,8; ; 14:13,19,22,31 ; ; 15:15,30; Leviticus 16:3,5,6,9, 11,15, 25,27 ; ; 23:19: NUMBERS, Numbers 6:11,14,16 ; Numbers 7:16,22,28,34, 40,46, 52,58, 70,76, 82,87 ; ; 8:8,12; Numbers 15:24,25,27 ; ; 18:9; ; 28:15,22; Numbers 29:5,11,16,22, 25,28, 31,34, 38.
Besides the above places, it occurs in the same signification, and is properly translated in our version, in the following places:-
2 CHRONICLES, 2 Chronicles 29:21,23,24 : EZRA, ; Ezra 6:17; ; 8:35: NEHEMIAH, Nehemiah 10:33: JOB, ; Job 1:5: EZEKIEL, ; Ezekiel 43:19,22,25 ; Ezekiel 44:27,29; ; 45:17,19,22,23, 25. In all, one hundred and eight places, which, in the course of my own reading in the Septuagint, I have marked.
Ron
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| Re: Teaching on Jesus Becoming Sin [message #9027 is a reply to message #9026] |
Wed, 11 July 2012 20:46 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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Thanks so much, I can't believe how many believers believe this and don't see how grievous it is. As I did some google searches to this teaching it was amazing just how far some go with it, it's blasphemous. I pray The Lord opens their eyes, especially those who are teaching and influencing millions of people.
[Updated on: Thu, 12 July 2012 19:00]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Teaching on Jesus Becoming Sin [message #9029 is a reply to message #9027] |
Mon, 16 July 2012 17:22 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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I am continuing this thread for the purpose of sharing the Truth; I don't think any of the regular contributors here believe this heresy but I just wanted to have it here for readers in the future to read. I hadn't realized just how much of a stronghold it has in the church today, especially among charismatics and the WOF (word of faith) ministry. I hear it in songs, songs that are beautiful and sound awsome, until you stop and listen to the lyrics. (" I am forgiven because You were forsaken..." from the song 'You Are My King' by Chris Tomlin; and I'm not bashing this man, in fact I love many of his worship songs...I believe he's just been taught this) Any additional comments and points that add to it are welcomed. There are many scriptures that state Jesus was a Lamb without spot or blemish, a sacrifical Lamb, a sin-offering. (Ephesians 5:2)
II Corinthians 11:3-4 warns against 'another gospel'; Galatians 1:6-9 does as well. Again I'm not here to list names, though I could, those that teach this heresy can easily be researched by doing a word search on Google about Jesus becoming a sinner or being forsaken or going to hell.(or just watching TBN, The Church Channel,or God TV) What they teach, we know it's true origin is Satan, goes against plain common sense once a person has read The Bible; throughtout God's Word we're taught that Jesus was sinless, that He and The Father were one. (John 14:7-11) In II Corinthians 5:19 we're told that God was IN Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.
What I also see is it seems as though many don't see the big deal, or the reason for separation from these ministries. They argue that it's just in the 'wording' and that they really don't believe it; defending those teaching this because they teach so many other things that build them up in God. (I understand, because unknowingly, I was watching a man who was teaching on God's Love and was being edified until he stated that Jesus became an adulterer on The Cross for the woman at the well.) But after seeing whom his ministry had been influenced by I could see where it came from.
Like Carl wrote in the song..."don't call Him any thing but Holy, He was never any thing but pure..."
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Teaching on Jesus Becoming Sin [message #10351 is a reply to message #9032] |
Tue, 19 November 2013 20:28 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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In reading a couple theology books (Bancroft & Grudem) lately, I've been blessed with a better understanding of several doctrines we hold to that will help in sharing Biblical truths with others. One that is so often twisted concerns The Atonement and Jesus becoming a sinner on The Cross. Wayne Grudem, in his Systematic Theology book goes into much detail concerning The Atonement. This is from his condensed version, Bible Doctrine which is more reader friendly for those who seek a less technical understanding of what Christians believe and why.
Christ as sin bearer...
"Scripture frequently says that our sins were put on Christ: "The LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all", and "He bore the sin of many". John The Baptist calls Jesus "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world". Paul declares that God made Christ "to be sin"(II Corinthians 5:21) and that Christ became "a curse for us" in Galatians 3:13 The author of Hebrews says that Christ was "offered once to bear the sin of many" and Peter says, "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree".
The passage from II Corintians quoted above, together with the verses from Isaiah, indicate that it was God the Father who put our sins on Christ. How could that be? In the same way in which Adam's sins were imputed to us, so God imputed our sins to Christ- that is, He thought of them as belonging to Christ, and, since God is the ultimate judge and definer of what really is in the universe, when God thought of our sins as belonging to Christ then in fact they actually did belong to Christ. This does not mean that God thought that Christ himself committed the sins, or that Christ had a sinful nature, but rather that the guilt for our sins (that is, the liability to punishment) was thought of by God as belonging to Christ rather than us."
Did Christ descend into hell?
"...the phrase "he descended into hell" does not occur in the Bible, its appearance in the widely used Apostles' Creed has generated much discussion as to its meaning and implications.
The Creed contains the words, "was crucified, dead, and buried, he descended into hell ; the third day he arose again from the dead."
When we turn to the scriptural evidence for this doctrine, we find that there are a number of texts that argue against the possibility of Christ's going to hell after his death. "Today you will be with me in Paradise"(Luke 23:43); "It is finished" (John 19:30); "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit"(Luke 23:46)
Furthermore, these texts indicate that Christ in his death on the Cross completely satisfied the demands of God's righteous judgment of sin and fully bore the wrath of God against that sin; there was no need for Christ to suffer further after His death on The Cross."
Jesus was never under the control of Satan and his demons, never in hell, He never spiritually died, He never had to be re-born, and He never sinned. Just as the punishment of Israel's sins were placed on the goat as a substitute, so also was the punishment of our sins placed upon Christ. The goat never sinned and neither did Christ.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Teaching on Jesus Becoming Sin [message #10357 is a reply to message #10351] |
Wed, 20 November 2013 23:14 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| james wrote on Tue, 19 November 2013 14:28 |
In reading a couple theology books (Bancroft & Grudem) lately, I've been blessed with a better understanding of several doctrines we hold to that will help in sharing Biblical truths with others. One that is so often twisted concerns The Atonement and Jesus becoming a sinner on The Cross.  Wayne Grudem, in his Systematic Theology book goes into much detail concerning The Atonement. This is from his condensed version, Bible Doctrine which is more reader friendly for those who seek a less technical understanding of what Christians believe and why.
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“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Teaching on Jesus Becoming Sin [message #10372 is a reply to message #10357] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 15:02 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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James,
I was talking to someone the other night about this subject. He insisted that even though Jesus said, you would be with me today in paradise, that Jesus actually was in the earth for three days preaching.
He tried to say when Jesus appeared to Mary, Jesus said, do not touch me as I have not yet ascended to the Father.
Was there not a teaching that the righteous dead went into Sheol while the wicked dead went to Hades? Some say Jesus preached to the righteous dead while in the earth for three days.
I don't know if this is all covered in the book you read, but at the time I did not have a strait answer for the man I was talking to. He did say Jesus never sinned and was always righteous before, during, and after the cross. He just had this one view there.
One more thing years ago I read an article in the newspaper, where Jimmy Swaggart said, that the Lord showed him through the teachings by HEF that Jesus was never a sinner. I wished I would of kept the article.
Anyway I was at someones house yesterday and they had on a religious program. It was Jimmy's Swaggarts grandson who is now a minister. He was preaching against Jesus died spiritually on this program saying Jesus never sinned, did not hear all of the sermon but the last half was very good. I guess this young man has a real ministry to the youth. I was blessed to see something like this on national TV.
Wanted to share this as these events happened right after you posted this recent article.
Gary
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