Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » Clearing the air on some scriptures
| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1570 is a reply to message #1569] |
Mon, 07 April 2008 16:15   |
 Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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Good morning, gentlemen! (I assume you are gentlemen and not ladies  )
I have been reading all the posts as they come along, and this is a very interesting discussion (and one in which I appreciate the spirit of respect in which everyone is posting). I haven't posted yet, so I thought I might roll a grenade into the tent and run. I will stand back and read the responses and post when I can.
Here is my opinion on the current discussion based upon my study of the scriptures: Spiritual healing (aka salvation) is guaranteed in the atonement. Physical healing is provided for in the atonement, but not guaranteed.
The Word states that "all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." This is the spiritual healing that we all needed as sinners who were "dead in our trespasses and sins." Since Jesus walked the earth, this promise has never failed. The same cannot be said for healing. Christians have been getting sick and dying since Jesus was here and will continue to do so until the end. The Bible even speaks of people dying during the millennium reign.
What do you think happened to all the people that Jesus healed during his earthly ministry? They all eventually died, and I'm sure that it wasn't always from old age. Like others have stated on this board, this is part of the curse brought about by Adam's sin. Until this curse is removed (and until Death is cast into the lake of fire), people will continue to get sick and will continue to die.
Now, that being said, can Christians still receive supernatural healing? Absolutely! I had a recent experience with some spots on the ball of my foot. I'm not sure what they were, but they seemed to spread every month. At first, it was just an irritation. Soon, however, they began to hurt when I walked. I remember praying over those spots and asking Jesus to remove them and heal my body. I forgot about it until a few months later when I was sitting on the couch without socks. I happened to look down at the bottom of my foot, and I remembered my petition to God. The sole of my foot was completely normal. Praise the Lord!
Does this mean that a Christian will always receive supernatural healing? No. We all know many Christians that did not receive healing and eventually died. Just like HEF. For anyone to come right out and say that the atonement guarantees our physical healing, means that they have misinterpreted the scripture or they are completely blind to the truth.
Just some simple thoughts.
Duncan
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1575 is a reply to message #1573] |
Thu, 10 April 2008 03:08 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
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JRS said, "Christians who have died from sickness – the problem was on there part."
JRS, I generally agree with the rest of your post, but I'm disappointed that you would make such a statement. All the believers over the years who have died from sickness have had a problem on their part? There is nowhere in scripture that teaches that there must be sin or some shortcoming on the part of the person who was not healed. That was actually a belief that was held by many people in Jesus' time, even though Job teaches otherwise. Job's friends told him there was a problem with Job. Job essentially said that there was a problem with God. The Lord rebuked Job, but was angry with his friends. His message to both of them? "I do what I want to do. Quit trying to blame me (Job) or come up with simple explanations (friends). I will allow to happen what happens, and you cannot always explain it." Of course, we were given a glimpse of what was going on in the spiritual realm at the beginning of the book. Yes, the Lord healed Job, but what if He hadn't? Instead of saying that there must have been a problem on their part, why can't we just say that the Lord chose not to heal them, and we don't know why? The Lord has promised healing, and we need to ask Him to heal us and believe that He will, but He does not always answer the way we expect Him to. Oftentimes He does. If He does not heal, it is not necessarily anyone's fault or a problem on their part. If the Lord were so predictable, He would not be God. We will know fully when that which is perfect has come...
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1580 is a reply to message #1483] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 02:14 |
JRS
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Jisamazed said, The Lord has promised healing, and we need to ask Him to heal us and believe that He will, but He does not always answer the way we expect Him to.
Interesting that you should bring up Job. Yes his affliction, Boils, lasted for some time. He was ridiculed for it and did what he could. You ask the question, What if he would have died? We could ask WHAT IF’s on almost a continual basis and I believe this is a mentality Satan would just love for us to speculate in. What if Paul died before making it Rome? What if John died before writing Revelations? We could go on and on wasting time on speculating on What if’s. The point is Job was healed. If he wouldn’t have been, the book would probably have a different name.
The point is – When God states something in His Word – It is Absolute. If we cannot look at the Word of God in this manor then we are wasting our time for how can we be sure about or own salvation? James 5:14 is very specific. God promises Healing for the sick. This is an area that the teaching of the past still hold so true and the logic it bought forth. If God promises it and we fail to receive it – the problem is not on God’s part. It is not an issue that if it stated that it is not his Will 100% of the time. If I can use the terminology – if God said it – that settles it. In James here one could go on about how to receive the healing. They must humble themselves and seek out the elders of the church. The elders are to anoint with oil. Pray the Prayer of Faith and so on.
The teachings about healing that were bought forth shook the denominational church and their way of thinking. The message was clear. It said healing is in scripture, it is in the atonement and it is for today. It was reasoned that if healing is in the atonement and we know that salvation is in the atonement. Then a believer has the same grounds to stand on and believe they are healed as certainly as they are saved.
The error comes in and fuels your train of thought, in that it was promoted that healing covered all ailments, flaws, and injuries of this natural body. This was never intended in scripture. Sickness is the only thing covered in the atonement. God has always healed as shown all through the OT and does continue to heal today. Yet all other cases fall in your line of thinking – God can, Is it His Will??
The problem is many who were of the persuasion that healing covered ALL things have suffered and even died as a result.
I see the promise as being settled.
I guess the question is – Can we or can’t we look on James 5;14 as a promise??
If it is not then why bother.
If it is - and one fulfills all it’s conditions and what they have is a sickness, not something that is a result of the fall or injury ect., then God Will be Faithful to his Word and HEAL.
JRS
For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1581 is a reply to message #1580] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 13:25 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
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JRS,
Everyone seems to keep quoting James 5 in their defense that healing is a guaranteed promise. I wonder how many of you have gone back and studied the Greek for James 5:15. It may surprise you.
First of all, the word for "sick" in the 14th verse ("Is there any sick among you...") is not the same word used in verse 15. The word for "sick in the 14th verse actually means sick or diseased. The word for "sick" in verse 15 means faint, tired or weary.
Secondly, the Greek word for "save" in verse 15 ("and the prayer of faith shall save the sick") is "sozo" and it means to rescue from destruction, deliver from judgment or save from evil. It is the same word used in Matthew 1:21 when the angel tells Mary that Jesus will "save his people from their sins" or when Peter is sinking in the water and he says to Jesus, "Lord, Save me!"
Only 2 times is this word used to mean "physical healing", but there are over 100 references to "spiritual healing."
After study, I hardly think this is a passage that should be used to give evidence that God guarantees our physical healing. In fact, the context of the whole verse speaks to spiritual healing, because it ends by referring to the person's sins being forgiven after the prayer of faith.
Let me conclude by saying that this post is NOT meant to deny supernatural healing. It is a post, however, that asks people to use proper exposition when basing a doctrine on a passage of scripture.
Have a blessed day,
Duncan
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1582 is a reply to message #1581] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 13:50 |
psalm91
Messages: 24
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I have been reading the posts concerning healing and wanted to comment. It seems to me that the issues concerning the faith message and Br. Freeman are really issues over the word of God. While Br. Freeman has been quoted quite a bit and criticized for saying this or that, the real issue that we should be concerned about is what did God say about the matter? What does the word of God say? In the end it really isn’t going to matter what Br. Freeman or anyone else said about anything, Unless they are giving us the word of God. Shouldn’t we be looking to the word? A few months ago I was thinking about something a sister had said about trying to figure out what a certain scripture meant. This acripture was very clear in its meaning but as I was pondering this the Lord spoke to my heart and he said that he doesn’t want his people trying to figure out what he meant by what he said. He wants us to just believe that he said what he meant. What would happen if we, as believers, quit trying to figure out why certain things have happened in the past and just believe God? What would happen if we quit trying to figure out what God meant by what he said and instead believe what he said? We are going to be judged by the word, not by someone’s opinion about what the word means. So what did God say? His word is absolute. He has told us that he is not a man that he should lie, neither the son of man that he should repent. So that gives us the assurance that we can trust him to do what he said he would do. Everything that doesn’t agree with God’s word is just man’s opinion so what did God say concerning healing?.
"And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee." (Exodus 23:25)
"And he said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee." (Exodus 15:26)
"For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD." (Jeremiah 30:17a)
"And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35)
"Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. (Psalm 91:3-6, 10)
"The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles." (Psalm 34:15, 17)
"Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise." (Jeremiah 17:14)
"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." (John 14:13-14)
"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." (John 15:7)
"And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." (Mark 11:22-24)
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matthew 21:21-22)
"Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James 5:14-15)
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:17-18)
"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." (Isaiah 53:4-5)
"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, Himself (Jesus) took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." (Matthew 8:17)
"The LORD is nigh (near) unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all. He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken." (Psalm 34:18-20)
"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit." (Jeremiah 17:5-8)
Please note that Jesus said we can ask what we will and he will give it to us. And whatsoever we ask in prayer believing we receive, we shall have. Absolutely nowhere is physical healing excluded. So what saith the scriptures?
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1585 is a reply to message #1584] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 17:46 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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Moulder,
I don't claim to have all the answers. In looking at James 5, however, it would seem to suggest that this passage is mainly dealing with Christians who are struggling in their spiritual walk with Jesus. Maybe they have been in a backslidden state and have lost their "first love." That would seem to fit the word "sick" which means weary or faint. It would also fit the word for "save" which means to be rescued from destruction or judgment.
Like I said before, please don't think that I am "anti-divine healing," because I am certainly not. It just seems to me that this passage in James continues to be taken out of context to justify God's guarantee of healing. I would say that this is also the case with many Old Testament passages that deal with healing, because if studied in context, they were specifically addressed to the children of Israel.
The bottom line for me is that we all must be careful not to take scripture out of its spiritual or historical context.
Watch out for the storms coming through today. (Although, it looks like the weather forecast has toned down since yesterday.)
May the Lord bless,
Duncan
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1586 is a reply to message #1581] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 20:24 |
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william
Messages: 1464
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| Duncan wrote: |
Only 2 times is this word used to mean "physical healing", but there are over 100 references to "spiritual healing."
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Actually this isn't accurate. The word is used by my count at least 17 times in the sense of physical healing:
Saved,
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Save,
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Whole,
Mat 9:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. (3 times in the above 2 verses.)
Mar 5:28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Mar 6:56 And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: and as many as touched him were made whole.
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Luk 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Act 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
Healed,
Mar 5:23 And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.
Luk 8:36 They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed.
Act 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
Thought you might want to know about these verses-- just in case you might be preaching on the subject!
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Fri, 11 April 2008 20:26]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1587 is a reply to message #1585] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 21:12 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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| Quote: |
I don't claim to have all the answers. In looking at James 5, however, it would seem to suggest that this passage is mainly dealing with Christians who are struggling in their spiritual walk with Jesus. Maybe they have been in a backslidden state and have lost their "first love." That would seem to fit the word "sick" which means weary or faint. It would also fit the word for "save" which means to be rescued from destruction or judgment.
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I'm not sure why you would ignore the obvious reference to the anointing oil, which is used with reference not to spiritual healing, but physical healing as in:
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Mar 6:13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
Anointing with oil, presumably coupled with the laying on of hands, has been the commission of the Church since its inception...
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1590 is a reply to message #1589] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 21:31 |
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william
Messages: 1464
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| Duncan wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 16:18 |
Moulder,
I didn't ignore the annointing of oil. I agree that it was used many times related to physical healing. However, you would have to agree with me that annointing with oil was also used to signify the setting apart of someone for service to God. Could it not be possible that this person in James 5 would be setting his life apart for service to God?
Please don't think I'm being argumentative. I'm just making observations.
Duncan
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I don't think you are being argumentative! (I don't think you have an argument! <grin>... just kidding!)
To my knowledge the only other NT passage dealing with anointing with oil is the passage I quoted; now if you want to assume that the sick person in James five is being ordained or something, akin to the OT anointing, then I'll have to say that it seems a bit of a stretch, but hey, I like to take the obvious meaning before I try to explain something away.
If the tenor of Jesus' ministry didn't include physical healing I might lean toward another meaning, but since He was healing people all of the time, and sending out his disciples who were healing people, and since the Church has been given the gifts of healing, then I see no reason to jump to some other conclusion.
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Fri, 11 April 2008 21:32]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1592 is a reply to message #1580] |
Sun, 13 April 2008 03:26 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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JRS said, "Interesting that you should bring up Job. Yes his affliction, Boils, lasted for some time. He was ridiculed for it and did what he could. You ask the question, What if he would have died? We could ask WHAT IF’s on almost a continual basis and I believe this is a mentality Satan would just love for us to speculate in. What if Paul died before making it Rome? What if John died before writing Revelations? We could go on and on wasting time on speculating on What if’s. The point is Job was healed. If he wouldn’t have been, the book would probably have a different name."
The only reason why I ask "what if Job had died" is because many Jobs we know HAVE died in our time, and too often pat answers are given that there must have been something wrong on their part. As long as we are alive we can ask the Lord to heal us and stand on his promise to do so. If the healing does not occur, we have to allow for more than saying, "there is a problem on their part, not God's". The hidden things belong to God, and let's not pretend we know that the person had some shortcoming.
I disagree with Duncan's interpretation of James 5, although I understand his suspicion of people trying to bind others with it. It is meant to be a freeing scripture, not a source of bondage. I do believe that it is a promise for healing, just like many others in scripture (it is interesting that HEF stated that the passage was not for today for FA late in his life). If you stand on that promise, make sure you called for prayer and anointing from the elders first. The Lord has healed me and my family numerous times, and I have had the privilege of seeing others healed when I have prayed for them. Frankly, the Lord does not do things the way that we expect sometimes. He does not have to. When we become presumptuous that He has to do things a certain way, such as always heal without the use of medical science, He has a way of teaching us a lesson.
Frankly, it is kind of disturbing that we need to even have this conversation after all these years. It would not have been necessary if the "faith camp" had not made such an idol of it. When I read about and observe people who have suffered greatly for the name of Jesus, this topic seems shallow and stupid. They have watched relatives get killed or spent years in jail simply because they believe that Jesus is God. It puts things into perspective. Yes, we can ask the Lord to heal us, and He often will. Hello. Now put the teaching of divine healing in its proper place on the Biblical priority list, long after God's plan for redemption, somewhere after the fruit of the spirit but before eschatology. I tell my kids, "No fussing over less important matters." Bosworth told Branham once, "No fussing" (...with other Christians in the area of divine healing). Intelligent discussion like we're having is helpful, but don't let it degenerate to fussing and strife over words like it is a top priority for the kingdom of God.
Hopefully none of you will let your children die due to your theology that you have expressed. I hope that we are all at least past that way of thinking. Ugh.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1596 is a reply to message #1483] |
Sun, 13 April 2008 14:14 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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jisamzed said: Frankly, it is kind of disturbing that we need to even have this conversation after all these years.
I cannot agree with you here. After all these years, yes, yet this kind of conversation is one that is a long time coming. What is really sad is could any of us imagined having this type of conversation say 25 - 30 years ago? We know what the results would have been.
I think there would be NO question to the statement that what was taught at FA was special and unique in many ways and because what you said,
“I ask "what if Job had died" is because many Jobs we know HAVE died in our time, and too often pat answers are given that there must have been something wrong on their part.”
The teachings were special and unique and there was error also. Many have classified FA in the same category as any other Denominational church or sect by saying they had some truth otherwise it was mostly error. There is no question that error is present in the teaching in many aspects. Many have completely turned their backs on FA and as a result have shut off the truths that exist in the teachings.
I know I can speak for myself and others that I was close to. We saw that there were major problems that came forth and consequently one can’t help but having the feeling of being betrayed, and even used. Then it seems natural that one begins to question the very foundation of why they were there and asking God for answers. Many of the ones I have known have completely thrown out all of the teachings as a result. Personally, that was something I could not do because I saw the truth God had blessed us with and I could not deny the testimony of how God had established the ministry (including HEF) and yet it all fell apart. Consequently one must divide the wheat from the chaff. With time I have experienced a number of churches and I come to the conclusion that the amount of truth that is present here far out weighs the error. It is the defining and understanding of that error that in required. When one understands it the stronger one becomes about the truths that will prevail.
As I fully understand what Duncan is attempting to say about James 5 and not wanting to bind others with the ideas that were taught at FA. This is a good example of what I have seen and experienced.
One looks at scripture and the desire is to believe it yet one has a hard time or even cannot take it for what it says because of the hurt (whatever the feelings are) that one has experienced. By one acknowledging and defining the error that was bought forth, one has a clearer vision of what the truth is. Healing happens to be a very big issue. Though it shouldn’t be and I agree with you jisamazed – “this topic seems shallow.” . Yet NOT STUPID. Simply by the interest many have shown and the diversity of understanding of it should begin to reveal it’s importance.
One of the biggest issues the denominational church has propagated is the idea that God doesn’t work today as he did in the past. They add support to that concept after large calamities in asking the question – How could God allow that??.
-You know were the logic will take you on that path.
-Others say God is real yet just not involved with the earthly things.
-Then you have others that say God is involved yet – He is somewhere on the fringes watching.
-Others say God is working today and he will – If it be Thy will.
-and there are a few who look and seek in the Word of God to see and understand his will towards us and DARE to believe it.
Healing would be a major way God could manifest himself to us and others that he is real and still working the same as he always has.
You ask why I center on James 5 so much – It is the only place in the NT – where it is specified and promised to us. There are many references in the OT and even quoted –Mat 8:17. They add to the strength of this promise. This was written out in James for a reason. So it was not just left in the wind as it seems that jisamzed is explaining.
Frankly, the Lord does not do things the way that we expect sometimes. He does not have to. When we become presumptuous that He has to do things a certain way, So true, such as always heal without the use of medical science, I would say thier is error with this statement….. He has a way of teaching us a lesson.
The healing message as I experienced it. If someone else has something to comment – Please do ------
1. Jesus has provides physical healing for us in the atonement and it is for today.
2. We have as much right to believe for healing as we do for our salvation.
3. If God has healed us, then it is sin for us to take steps to do things for our healing.
4. If we are “walking out our faith and enduring our trials” it would be sin to attempt to find any relief in any way. – bandages ect. ( arm of the flesh)
5. All forms of Doctors (medical science) are occult and to seek them in any way = sin.
6. To use of common sense in a trail would be sin – showing a lack of faith – This even pertains to physical exercise for the body.
I hold to the fact of – Healing as it was taught (basics)at FA is correct.
The error entered with the assumption that Healing applies to ALL ailments of this physical body and along with this came going to Doctors is sin - leaning on the arm of the flesh.
This is where I agree with what jiamazed has stated. God can heal but we have no guarantees apart form sickness.
Where we have a direct promise as seen in James 5, we can be as certain of it as we can for the promise of salvation. This promise is for Sickness’s ONLY and I know with thinking about it, there are issues I would have to seek the Lord on for direction if they are a sickness or not. To define them all – I can not.
If GOD has promised it in his WORD then everything has been done –past tense- and for us not to receive it and not accepting the blame is to apply that the promises of God are not to be believed. If this is true for one promise, then it is true for all the promises, otherwise are we to believe that some of the promises are for today and some are not. Isn’t this the argument the Baptist church holds towards the Baptism of the Holy Spirit???
The promises for salvation and the promises for healing of Sickness are equal.
They are of equal strength and should be of equal value to the believer.
JRS
ICor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
ICor 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
ICor15:54-58So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1597 is a reply to message #1596] |
Mon, 14 April 2008 02:44 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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JRS, that was an excellent post. We are all trying to chew the meat and spit out the bones from HEF's teaching. We disagree on what is meat and what is bones, and that is why there is value in this discussion. Some believe that there was no meat, others no bones. For many years some people have not been able to talk about their hurts, frustrations or criticism of HEF for fear of rejection or someone cursing them as if they were an apostate. This is a chance to discuss it. When I say that it is disturbing that we even have to have the conversation, I am responding to those who still seem to have this doctors=unbelief mentality, who are still stuck in 1984. It is puzzling why people can't move past that way of thinking, but I was that way once. I suppose that is the nature of deception. Many of my clients hold to delusions and do not realize it, because a person is not aware of his own delusion by definition. Some humility and divine intervention are the only way out of it.
When I say, "...it seems shallow and stupid", it is simply my visceral reaction when think about HEF's comments about medical science and then I read Voice of the Martyrs, which describes the suffering of many faithful Christians around the world. However, I realize that healing has its place, and in fact I pray for a restoration of the healing power that the Lord has given throughout church history.
Your comments about denominations, a term that brings an equally visceral reaction in me, deserve a response in a separate post. I think I will start a thread on that topic. Stay tuned.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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