Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » Divine healing - every time, no exceptions
| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8351 is a reply to message #8349] |
Sat, 15 October 2011 13:49   |
 JWBTI
Messages: 253
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Location: Ohio |
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Yes Jman, I understand what your saying.
But the Battle we face today is……………
Most Christians today equate Medical Science with Devine Healing !
Most put the Doctors on the same level as Jesus Christ and His power to Heal !
We don’t need the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives to Heal and set free,
cause Medical Science has replaced Devine Healing with there Drugs and treatments!
Just ask any Christian, at any Church and they will say:
That God has given the Doctors the Knowledge and the power to heal !
It is good that The doctors and nurses want to help those that are suffering !
But it’s evil to put them on the same level and status as The Lord Jesus Christ !
No matter how we define the terms and usages of the words Drugs/Occult, if it turns
Our hearts away from God, it is sin !
If we as Believers, would do a better job of preaching repentance and following
in the steps of Jesus, Healing the sick , raising dead and casting out demons, there
would be a lot less people dependant on medical science.
Blessings
Ron
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8353 is a reply to message #8351] |
Sat, 15 October 2011 15:06 |
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william
Messages: 1464
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| JWBTI wrote on Sat, 15 October 2011 08:49 |
No matter how we define the terms and usages of the words Drugs/Occult, if it turns
Our hearts away from God, it is sin !
If we as Believers, would do a better job of preaching repentance and following
in the steps of Jesus, Healing the sick , raising dead and casting out demons, there
would be a lot less people dependant on medical science.
Blessings
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Amen!!
Hard to imagine someone who had been raised from the dead going in for his yearly checkup!! (Especially if his old doctor had anything to do with his death!)
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8362 is a reply to message #8352] |
Sun, 16 October 2011 12:21 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
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Location: Ohio |
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Jman said:
Say bro. Zeke has a death door sick child
and he comes to the place where he knows he
lacks the faith.
At that moment he is in sin (the lack of faith is sin )
so the sin or not issue is over - his faith fell short
and thereby he sinned a sin.
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Jwbti:
Why didn’t Zeke call for the Elders as James 5 teaches ?
I know we all want to grow and expand our own Faith, but I wonder how many things
We walked out needlessly. If we would have just obeyed this passage, maybe our
Healings would have been manifested sooner if not instantaneously.
I know this passage was taught and spoken on more than the subject of drugs/occult !
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
James 5:14-16 (KJV)
V 16 Bro Zeke could have called for the elders, confessed his faults (lack of faith) and the child could have been healed.
Ron
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8364 is a reply to message #8363] |
Sun, 16 October 2011 20:29 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
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Location: Ohio |
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If Zeke lacked confidence in the local elders why did he even stay
And lesson to what they were teaching ?
Or maybe it was his pride an unwillingness to humble himself before the Lord
And His word ?
It’s not the vessels we are to have faith in, It is His Word that heals !
Ron
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8366 is a reply to message #8354] |
Mon, 17 October 2011 05:02 |
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william
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Back to the matter at hand...
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The nature of sorcery:
1) They consult the dead (1Sam 28)
2) Practice magic (Ex 7:11)
3) Interpret dreams (Dan 2:2)
4) Use divination (Jer 27:9-10)
They often use drugs as a part of their ritual, sometimes taking them internally to heighten the experience (often sexual).
The usage of drugs has its source in witchcraft.
There is no place in the OT where it says drugs are to be avoided but the association is derived from the Septuagint translation of the term for sorcery with the Greek term for drugs--pharmakeia. Gal 5:20 uses the same term.
From the above teaching HEF says that it isn't just a lack of faith to turn to the doctors and their drugs but it is a lack of discernment as to the source of where you are getting your treatment. His conclusion: Anyone who seeks that sort of treatment needs to go through occult deliverance.
He goes on to say that medical science comes directly from witchcraft and they still use some of the same techniques.
"God didn't design our bodies for witchcraft potions and mutilation with a scalpel."
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(The above notes were taken from the tape in OT Theology where this subject was covered.)
HEF defined occultism this way:
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WHAT IS OCCULTISM?
Stated concisely, it is participation or involvement in any way with fortunetelling, magic practices, spiritism, or false religious cults and teachings.
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Following is a compilation of some of what I've found on the subject from various books and web sources:
oc·cult·ism (-kltzm, kl-)
n.
1. The study of the supernatural.
2. A belief in occult powers and the possibility of bringing them under human control.
oc·cultist n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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oc·cult (-klt, klt)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.
2. Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.
3. Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore. See Synonyms at mysterious.
4. Hidden from view; concealed.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
[Since Alchemy and its associations with the occult and drugs have been brought up in this thread I've included information on that subject as well.--WE]
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Etymology
Main article: Chemistry (etymology)
The word alchemy derives from the Old French alquimie, which is from the Medieval Latin alchimia, and which is in turn from the Arabic al-kimia (الكيمياء). This term itself is derived from the Ancient Greek chemeia (χημεία) or chemia (χημία) with the addition of the Arabic definite article al- (الـ). The ancient Greek word may have been derived from a version of the Egyptian name for Egypt, which was itself based on the Ancient Egyptian word kēme (hieroglyphic Khmi, black earth, as opposed to desert sand). The word could also have originally derived from chumeia (χυμεία) meaning "mixture" and referring to pharmaceutical chemistry. With the later rise of alchemy in Alexandria, the word may have derived from Χημία, and thus became spelled as χημεία, and the original meaning forgotten. The etymology is still open, and recent research indicates that the Egyptian derivation may be valid.
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History
Extract and symbol key from a 17th century book on alchemy. The symbols used have a one-to-one correspondence with symbols used in astrology at the time.
Alchemy covers several philosophical traditions spanning some four millennia and three continents. These traditions' general penchant for cryptic and symbolic language makes it hard to trace their mutual influences and "genetic" relationships. One can distinguish at least three major strands, which appear to be largely independent, at least in their earlier stages: Chinese alchemy, centered in China and its zone of cultural influence; Indian alchemy, centered around the Indian subcontinent; and Western alchemy, which occurred around the Mediterranean and whose center has shifted over the millennia from Greco-Roman Egypt, to the Islamic world, and finally medieval Europe. Chinese alchemy was closely connected to Taoism and Indian alchemy with the Dharmic faiths, whereas Western alchemy developed its own philosophical system that was largely independent of, but influenced by, various Western religions. It is still an open question whether these three strands share a common origin, or to what extent they influenced each other.
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Alchemy is an ancient tradition, the primary objective of which was the creation of the mythical "philosopher's stone," which was said to be capable of turning base metals into gold or silver, and also act as an elixir of life that would confer youth and immortality upon its user. Alchemy can be viewed as a protoscience, a precursor to modern chemistry, having provided procedures, equipment, and terminology that are still in use. However, alchemy also included various non-scientific mythological, religious, and spiritual concepts, theories and practices.
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Modern discussions of alchemy are generally split into an examination of its exoteric practical applications, and its esoteric aspects. The former is pursued by historians of the physical sciences who have examined the subject in terms of proto-chemistry, medicine, and charlatanism. The latter is of interest to the historians of esotericism, psychologists, spiritual and new age communities, and hermetic philosophers. The subject has also made an ongoing impact on literature and the arts. Despite the modern split, numerous sources stress an integration of esoteric and exoteric approaches to alchemy. Holmyard, when writing on exoteric aspects, states that they can not be properly appreciated if the esoteric is not always kept in mind. The prototype for this model can be found in Bolos of Mendes' second century BCE work, Physika kai Mystika (On Physical and Mystical Matters). Marie-Louise von Franz tells us the double approach of Western alchemy was set from the start, when Greek philosophy was mixed with Egyptian and Mesopotamian technology. The technological, operative approach, which she calls extraverted, and the mystic, contemplative, psychological one, which she calls introverted are not mutually exclusive, but complementary instead, as meditation requires practice in the real world, and conversely.
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Esoteric hermetic alchemists may reject work on exoteric substances, instead directing their search for the philosopher's stone inward.Though esoteric and exoteric approaches are sometimes mixed, it is clear that some authors "are not concerned with material substances but are employing the language of exoteric alchemy for the sole purpose of expressing theological, philosophical, or mystical beliefs and aspirations." New interpretations continue to be developed around spagyric, chemical, and esoteric schools of thought.
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During the 17th century, practical alchemy started to evolve into modern chemistry, as it was renamed by Robert Boyle, the "father of modern chemistry". In his book, The Skeptical Chymist, Boyle attacked Paracelsus and the natural philosophy of Aristotle, which was taught at universities. However, Boyle's biographers, in their emphasis that he laid the foundations of modern chemistry, neglect how steadily he clung to the Scholastic sciences and to Alchemy, in theory, practice and doctrine. The decline of alchemy continued in the 18th century with the birth of modern chemistry, which provided a more precise and reliable framework within a new view of the universe based on rational materialism.
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During the renaissance, alchemy broke into more distinct schools placing spiritual alchemists in high contrast with those working with literal metals and chemicals. While most spiritual alchemists also incorporate elements of exotericism, examples of a purely spiritual alchemy can be traced back as far as the sixteenth century, when Jacob Boehme used alchemical terminology in strictly mystical writings. Another example can be found in the work of Heinrich Khunrath (1560–1605) who viewed the process of transmutation as occurring within the alchemist's soul.
The recent work of Principe and Newman, seeks to reject the 'spiritual interpretation' of alchemy, stating it arose as a product of the Victorian occult revival. There is evidence to support that some classical alchemical sources were adulterated during this time to give greater weight to the spiritual aspects of alchemy. Despite this, other scholars such as Calian and Tilton reject this view as entirely historically inaccurate, drawing examples of historical spiritual alchemy from Boehme, Isaac Newton, and Michael Maier.
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Science and the occult
To the occultist, occultism is conceived of as the study of the inner nature of things, as opposed to the outer characteristics that are studied by science. The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer designates this "inner nature" with the term Will, and suggests that science and mathematics are unable to penetrate beyond the relationship between one thing and another in order to explain the "inner nature" of the thing itself, independent of any external causal relationships with other "things".[16][original research?] Schopenhauer also points towards this inherently relativistic nature of mathematics and conventional science in his formulation of the 'World as Will'. By defining a thing solely in terms of its external relationships or effects we only find its external, or explicit nature. Occultism, on the other hand, is concerned with the nature of the "thing-in-itself". This is often accomplished through direct perceptual awareness, known as mysticism. From the scientific perspective, occultism is regarded as unscientific as it does not make use of the scientific method (that is, observation and experimentation) to obtain facts.
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The New Age Movement and the Biblical Worldview [I can get reference information if you insist]
"For most of human history, the diagnosis and treatment of bodily malfunctions have belonged to the realm of the supernatural. Indeed, if a history of the world's medicine were to give equal time to each century of the last five thousand years, most of it would be a Who's Who of mystics, faith healers, gurus, and shamans (the medicine man/priest of primitive societies). Only in the recent past has the study of the human body been separated somewhat from a supernatural overlay".
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From the above information (which is just a touch of what is out there!) there seems to be a consensus that there are two distinct streams in both alchemy and medical science. One stream is clearly occult in nature and the other would fall into the scientific category. We can ignore this distinction but consistency demands an explanation of why one branch (alchemy/chemistry) is acceptable for the Christian and not the other given the close similarities and even direct overlapping of the two fields.
In many cases the distinction is not very hard to discern like homeopathy and other mystical new-age methodologies that co-exist with the more modern counter-parts.
Western medical science is predominately concerned with the purely physical aspects of the human body and seeks to fix the problems that arise not by seeking the root cause of the problems (which more often than not have a spiritual cause and not merely a physical one) but by patching up the body with things/drugs that are known to relieve the suffering of its patients. Now one can argue about whether or not this is the proper methodology but it does remove much of the mystic aspects of medical science that would place it clearly into the occult realm.
It is interesting that the approaches that attempt to deal with the 'whole man' (holistic, new-age, etc.) are those that are still actively involved in the ancient roots of occultism.
Praise Jesus for His provision. He came to heal/save the whole man!
Anyway, I hope I haven't been too boring.
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8367 is a reply to message #8366] |
Mon, 17 October 2011 18:28 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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Thanks for all of the info, moulder. I know it must have taken a lot of time. I know that I will be referring to it often.
Regarding medications and the use of them, I believe that when they are used to specifically alter the mind, it gets into the esoteric aspect that you mentioned. To me, this is occult and evil. I feel that many substances we ingest in everyday life can be put into this category if they are abused and moderation is not involved. These substances could include wine, caffeine, vitamens, herbs, etc. Yes, you can OD or alter you mind on any of them.
My understanding is that the exoteric side is related to the chemical reactions that could benefit your physical body for healing. I believe that this is where one needs to be convinced in one's own heart, before Jesus, as to what is moderation or compromise as to "leaning to the arm of the flesh."
What about those things that are considered "leaning to the arm of the flesh" but are not ingested? This can apply to many areas of life, let alone healing and medical science.
Again, this is where I think it is important to know, for yourself, and to walk your own walk before Jesus.
I feel that the same principal applies. "Let every man be convinced in his own heart" as to what they should do.
Dr. Freeman was a gifted teacher and I will always be grateful for having sat under his ministry. His ministry, quite literally, saved me and my family's lives on many occasions.
Having said that, I want to mention that I look back and do not agree with all that was taught at FA or how Dr. Freeman chose to act out his faith at times.
One thing in particular is that he continued to eat butter, cream, sugar, etc. I am more than open to correction, but with my understanding of the nature of his trials, that was not wise. IMHO
At one time, these statements would have been enough to be considered "critical" of his ministry. That is not my heart at all. I am saying that Dr. Freeman was a man and was not perfect. It is not wrong to question everything that came across that pulpit.
I feel that this is what Dr. Freeman would have wanted; to search the scriptures and to know how to discern and know the voice of the Holy Spirit for ourselves. I think we had so much coming at us for years, that we did not have time to process or to be put in positions to use all of the information that we were given.
Personally, I have been put in different positions where I had to fall back on the teachings of FA. I slung my sword and was delivered! But, in order to sling the sword with confidence, I was 100% convinced in my own heart of what I knew and how to battle, even down to physical death's door.
Since FA, we have all been shaken up like a box of cereal in transport. What has settled in our hearts? What is good and right in our own eyes? How do we see our brothers and sisters who may not agree with "everything" that was presented 30 years ago?
I feel that these are important questions when we go to prayer and claim the promises. Attitudes can block answers to prayer. We should not feel like we have to walk on eggshells or be afraid to express what we believe after all of these years. I do believe that we are getting past most of that.
I value each and every little thing that is put on OO. I am thankful that I now have a venue to share and to continue to wrestle with and settle issues that have been pending for years within my heart. I can't speak for others.
Midrashing is what OO is all about and it blesses my life. I pray that others, as well as, readers who do not actively participate, are blessed as well.
[Updated on: Mon, 17 October 2011 20:47]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8368 is a reply to message #8367] |
Mon, 17 October 2011 23:48 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Thanks Brother William,
Lots of info there !
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Sister Gillyann,
Thank you for an open heart and your kind words !
No egg shells here !
Been beating them into sand with the beams that have come out of my own eyes.
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Brother Jman !
Thanks for starting this thread !
It has been a very interesting discussion.
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AND
Blessing to all that post and read these messages on OO !
Ron
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8369 is a reply to message #8173] |
Tue, 18 October 2011 03:03 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
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Hi,
A summary as I see it:
The teaching cannot stand as
'pharmakeia informs us that all drugs = occult therefore med science is occult.'
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alcohol is a drug and was allowed by Jesus, Paul, the Corinthians
Therefore the drug alcohol cannot be occult therefore not all drugs are occult
FA only said med science drugs are occult, but not all drugs.
ex- alcohol, caffeine
But this is not consistent if the doctrine comes from the
pharmakeia definition which contains no distinction among
drugs.
pharmakeia itself was a first century word that has no reference to
modern scientific drugs since modern, helpful drugs did not exist for
many hundreds of years after the first century.
The teaching stands as a revelation given to HEF.
His credibility is judged differently by different people.
Most tell new people that believers live by the Bible not that
believers live by the Bible and also HEF revelations.
The teaching also includes the fact that med science has
origins in magic and witchcraft. But so does modern
chemistry science have origins in alchemy – a witchcraft system
of thought in the middle ages. If med science is occult then
why not chemistry science – and astronomy, and farming
(Agricultural sciences), and any more?? sciences whose origins trace back to
occult belief systems
We cannot avoid ingesting drugs in our modern society
( in air, food , and water )
so if the drugs are in themselves occult then believers need some
doctrine in place as to how to spiritually safeguard themselves.
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Possible modifications of the med science is occult teaching.
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Maybe say only some drugs are occult
This deviates from the definition of pharmakeia argument which includes no distinctions among drugs
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Maybe say the motive of the heart of the drug user makes the drug use occult or not occult
This deviates from the definition of pharmakeia argument which includes no distinctions
This deviates from the HEF revelation/teaching
This is inconsistent with the 'origins are occult' idea if looking at med science
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A non-pharmakeia option . . .
Maybe say the definition of 'occult practices' is
“ to seek something supernatural from any source other than God. “
Therefore some drugs are occult or might be occult if their chemical
operation within the body is not scientifically totally known yet.
ie: these poorly understood drugs might work by occult means instead of scientific means
This idea is defined from the definition of 'occult practices' – derivable
from the Bible – and not defined from pharmakeia.
This idea omits pharmakeia and revelations completely.
I remember that the HEF track on occult deliverance (little gray tract)
has a great Biblical teaching on the occult all in one place. So I think this
definition of ' occult practices ' can readily be Bible validated.
Then some things are not occult
set broken bone
clean a wound with germ killer
insulin
any drug with known chemical function
alcohol
caffeine
fancy tests and equipment
the hospital building itself
the nurses and doctors themselves
Some things are occult
Acupuncture
homeopathy
“trippy” mind altering drugs that take the user into the spiritual realm – LSD, meth, cocain
any drug that is not understood yet how it works might or might not be occult
more?
Jman
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8370 is a reply to message #8369] |
Tue, 18 October 2011 05:25 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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Jman wrote:
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The teaching stands as a revelation given to HEF.
His credibility is judged differently by different people.
Most tell new people that believers live by the Bible not that
believers live by the Bible and also HEF revelations.
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Hi Jman,
I don't have a lot of time to get into the rest of your summary most of which I agree with but I did want to examine the above quote because I think that a fundamental misunderstanding here will color/taint the proper relationship that teachers have with the Church.
As far as I know this teaching was not, nor was ever purported to be, 'a revelation'.
First of all this 'revelation' as you call it was not unique to Hobart Freeman. There are and have been many people/teachers in history that have held to similar views. Greek lexicons have been around a long time and it doesn't take a genius to yoke pharmacology with the Septuagint's translation of the OT term for sorcery as pharmakia.
This, in and of itself, takes it from the realm of 'revelation' and places it squarely into the realm from which most teachers operate -- Biblical studies, words and their meanings, interpretation of facts, etc..
If this teaching were in the realm of 'revelation' then we would have no other option than to say that it was a 'revelation' from a source other than God -- assuming that the modern-day application of HEF's teaching is in error, of course, and also assuming that our conclusions are right. I don't claim that my conclusion is in any way 'a revelation' so why should we assume that HEF's conclusion was a revelation? Did he claim that?
We've done nothing more that examine evidence and draw conclusions from that evidence and I'm pretty sure that brother Freeman did the same thing.
From reading your other notes I get the impression that you regard the five-fold ministry as almost infallible -- they are not (plenty of evidence for that!).
Yes, we do have the Holy Spirit to guide us and hopefully we take these kinds of matters very seriously, but that doesn't make us, or anyone in the ministry incapable of error. You don't need to read very far in the New Testament before running across ministers who were mistaken in some of their viewpoints. We do see these kinds of things being eventually corrected as the early Church hashed out the issues -- praise God -- but it took time. We have the benefit of an inspired revelation to gather together our doctrine but that doesn't mean that we ourselves aren't influenced by things that eventually the Holy Spirit will correct -- if we let Him.
He will lead us into all truth:
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John16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
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This very verse implies a process of time. No Christian/minister has arrived with regards to perfection... yet!
More later...
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8382 is a reply to message #8381] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 07:20 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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| grandom wrote on Sat, 22 October 2011 00:13 |
| moulder wrote on Fri, 21 October 2011 21:20 |
(You all know that you can sign up using any name you like without revealing your real identity, right? We don't consider that as being deceptive, just prudent.)
Blessings,
William
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Ahh yes, but the ip address will give you away every time...
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And pray tell us what you will find out from an IP address?? (Go ahead and look up mine Mr New-Haven/Ft-Wayne-Comcast-cable-user!)
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Sat, 22 October 2011 07:29]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8384 is a reply to message #8383] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 13:37 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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| grandom wrote on Sat, 22 October 2011 06:51 |
| moulder wrote on Sat, 22 October 2011 02:20 |
And pray tell us what you will find out from an IP address?? (Go ahead and look up mine Mr New-Haven/Ft-Wayne-Comcast-cable-user!)
Blessings,
William
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Thank you William for proving my point.
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So being lumped in a group of... oh, let's say 100,000 or so Comcast subscribers, is not anonymous enough for you????
You must be an outstanding individual.
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Sat, 22 October 2011 13:38]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8386 is a reply to message #8385] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 16:16 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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I am a very sarcastic and tongue in cheek kind of person when responding to people on OO and in everyday life. I mix it with humor and throw it out there.
My grandfather did the same thing. I wish I could only be as funny as that man was. Also, he was sure to use this style of speaking to not hurt others.
I really think that we misinterpret many responses in prose due to not being able to watch facial expressions, body language, etc.
I can't see either one of you guys really wanting to (urinate   ) anyone off.
Grandom, are you sure about the Hebrew or Greek on that word?
Maybe this was a misunderstanding due to all of the above?
Like moulder said at one time, I think we all need to get together, do some midrashing, and throw pizza at each other  to clear the air when misunderstandings arise. 
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8388 is a reply to message #8385] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 16:27 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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| grandom wrote on Sat, 22 October 2011 10:14 |
moulder wrote on Sat, 22 October 2011 08:37
[/quote |
So being lumped in a group of... oh, let's say 100,000 or so Comcast subscribers, is not anonymous enough for you????
You must be an outstanding individual
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No. Not really. I really cant understand how I pissed you off William. I was good natureardly challenging the anonymous thingy and you immediately took offense.
Whats the name of this forum? Oh yes "Overcomers" on line.Forgot there for a few moments.
Oh and before every one looses their minds the word piss occurs twice in the bible.
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Here I am trying to get people to participate; assuring them that they can do so without revealing too much about themselves -- i.e. anonymously -- and then you throw out a comment that implies that they are not anonymous and then use the comment I made about being able to narrow it down to a list of thousands of Comcast users, as proving your point? No, I'm not pissed, just bewildered as to your motivation.
Being an overcomer doesn't preclude one from pointing out when a person is wrong, btw.
Blessings,
William
(I'm surprised that you didn't get my humor as I deadpanned the comment about you being an 'outstanding' individual... <grin>)
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8390 is a reply to message #8380] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 17:25 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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Okay to get in the topic even though I haven’t posted for a long time? The last year has been a
hard one, but I have been following you all just about every day, and been blessed and encouraged.
Divine Healing is clearly taught in God’s word. There are many, many scriptures that support the
teaching of healing and it is up to us to either believe that and walk in that truth or not. Now in saying
that, we also need to give people room to grow and have faith for healing and see it in God’s word. The Bible is full of absolutes, such as peace for the believer(John 14:27,) our daily needs met(Matt. 6:31-34,) victory in our everyday life(Ps. 91,) freedom from fear(2 Timothy 1:7,) healing and forgiveness(Ps. 103:3,) family salvation(Acts 16:31) and many others.
And with each of the above promises there are multiple scriptures that we could also look at that says
the exact same thing. Even if there was only one scripture for a promise of God we should believe it because God said all the promises are yes and amen in Him.
I can’t answer why some have died, but it doesn’t change what God says. If we want to blame someone
for what has happened, then do it, forgive them and go on with your walk with the Lord. Personally, I do not want to blame anyone because I am responsible for myself. If I would blame myself for anything it would be for not walking in the light I have been given, whether through Brother Freeman,
Brother Hill, Brother Jerry, and many others. Whatever happened to others I can’t help, but I can help
what I do with what I have been given. No doubt some have been mistreated by others who we called our brothers and sisters, but we also have to remember that there are tares that grow with the wheat, and how do we know that some who so mistreated us weren’t being used by our adversary? Many of these have not endured, so from our side we forgive and pray for them. I don’t know who will be saved and who won’t, but I know that if God said something it is truth and I am responsible to walk in it.
If we don’t want to believe God will heal us every time then we can get into the “if it be thy will” deception. God has been too faithful to me all these years to not believe Him. I remember a song we use to sing: “I have decided to follow Jesus.” One verse we use to sing with that is: “Though none go with me, yet I will follow.” Do we still believe that? It is so hard to see old friends and where they are now. I saw someone yesterday who use to go to church with me and it made my heart sad.
I remember one time when I was driving to Faith Assembly early one Sunday morning after there had been a split in our assembly, and the Lord spoke to me as clear as I have ever had and said: “You haven’t seen anything yet. You need to pray for acute discernment for what is ahead.”
We need to be aware of the wiles of the devil in his subtle deceptions.
The following statement was posted and I would like to disagree with the statement:
“I want to mention that I look back and do not agree with all that was taught at FA or how Dr. Freeman chose to act out his faith at times.
One thing in particular is that he continued to eat butter, cream, sugar, etc. I am more than open to correction, but with my understanding of the nature of his trials, that was not wise. IMHO”
How Brother Freeman walked out his faith was between him and the Lord. I can remember many testimonies of people who did things contrary to common sense or what medical science would
recommend. One brother fell playing basketball and hurt(possible broke) his ankle, so common sense
would say to put ice on it and quite playing and go to the doctor. This brother got up and said to someone else he would race them to the other end of the court. By the time they got there he was totally healed.
Someone else couldn’t eat some kind of fish, but after a teaching on confession and faith they were able
to eat the fish they couldn’t before.
When you say Brother Freeman shouldn’t have eaten certain foods, that would be said from a medical point of view, not faith.
I think one thing we see happening in our society is a subtle and not so subtle fear that people have when it comes to food. Christians have opened doors up to oppression by their putting their faith in their diet instead of in Jesus. For instance, if you eat certain herbs and organic food it will help you not get cancer. If you eat other kinds of foods, or stay away from certain foods you have less chance of getting Alzheimer disease. There is a constant bombardment from medical science to eat or not eat certain things, so we can stay healthy and not get cancer or other diseases. Sounds nice, doesn’t it?
But it is only another tactic of Satan to get us away from trusting Jesus for our health. If I want to
eat red meat, I will. If I want to drink coffee or soda, I will, but not in excess. As we walk closer to the
Lord, He will check us when we are over indulging in something.
There is also such occult practices in the churches today that Christians have been made to believe is okay because it is done all in the name of Christ. Such as Yoga and karate. After all if one would focus on Jesus while doing Yoga it is okay, right? Wrong. And if you just do Karate for exercise, what is wrong with that? A lot. Things use to be more black and white, right or wrong, but now there is so much gray
that it is hard to distinguish what is what anymore.
God’s word is true and God is true to His word. If He said it, He will do it, including healing.
I suppose I should stop for now. Thanks so much for people who truly love the Lord and want to please Him in all they think, say and do.
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8391 is a reply to message #8390] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 17:54 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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Thanks, Sage, for your input. We have missed you around here.
I am sorry you have been through some hard times this past year. God is faithful and I will remember you in my prayers.
I appreciate the things you said and I will consider them when walking this topic out in my life.
Also, it truely is between everyone and Jesus as far as how one acts out their faith.
I still don't agree that it was wise for Dr. Freeman to eat those things, but that is me. I had that opinion before FA due to watching some people die to the same disease processes and not eating properly. I was confused for years, while being at FA, about this subject. I believe I have settled the matter for myself in my own heart.
And then again, I am working on my own personal intake being more healthy everyday. There is room for improvement at times. I am not going to beat myself up if I slip every now and then.
Good to see you back, and I hope you have time to share more often! 
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8392 is a reply to message #8390] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 18:34 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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Yea! You're back!
I know how that all of the things that we are constantly facing in our lives determine how much time we can focus on this type of medium and at times I've had to limit myself to just reading -- so you aren't alone in this -- but I too have missed your participation. We'll take whatever time you can give us!
Concerning how we act our faith is a personal decision. There are times when acting out our faith will seem foolish to those who aren't privy to our convictions. What is good for one may not translate exactly into the way another person acts their faith but those kinds of things are best left between the individual involved and God. Breaking your ankle and literally walking it out certainly has proven to be effective in the lives of some while for others simply not resorting to the doctors is a step of faith. Who are we to judge another man's servant? (Romans 14:4)
Anyway, it is good to hear from you!
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Sat, 22 October 2011 18:50]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8394 is a reply to message #8393] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 20:25 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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I wanted to add something to my post.
"When you say Brother Freeman shouldn’t have eaten certain foods, that would be said from a medical point of view, not faith."
I don't think common sense eating habits is a medical point of view. Medical science may have adopted this view, but it is not where it was first presented to the human race.
I believe God started teaching His people good eating habits in the OT Law. Many people eat according to these habits, and they are quite healthy. They do not do it to earn their salvation either. God had reasons in establishing these things in order to protect His people.
If anything, I think medical science has learned much by using these standards. Food was just one aspect of many health issues He presented to His people and that others have adopted into their lives. Clean techniques regarding everyday living, the preparation of food, isolation, rest, and the assessment of diseases is just the tip of the iceburg.
I also know that God will ask people to do many "odd" things in walking out their faith. Still, I don't think that gives us the blanket excuse to eat anything we want and expect God to heal us. Moderation is very good. Sometimes I think that the word moderation is another word for compromise in the Faith Camp, but that is another thread.
I also realize that the Holy Spirit will lead each and every person to do what is right according to His leading, and not by what others may do or think about those actions.
I love discussing the Word, but in the end, especially at death's door, one HAS to be convinced in his own heart 100%.
[Updated on: Sat, 22 October 2011 20:39]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8396 is a reply to message #8394] |
Sun, 23 October 2011 01:58 |
Mark L
Messages: 856
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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I really think that we misinterpret many responses in prose due to not being able to watch facial expressions, body language, etc
I post on several other forums and that is very common. One has to be very careful.
One thing I remember HEF said and not sure if anyone said this was that some were going through trials "now" because of (medical) drugs they took yrs earlier. I'm not sure if he meant the result was spiritually or physically caused. I always took it to mean there was a natural result.
I'm trying to work my way through this thread before I post so I can an idea of what has been said.
[Updated on: Sun, 23 October 2011 02:06]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8397 is a reply to message #8394] |
Sun, 23 October 2011 03:06 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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"I wanted to add something to my post.
"When you say Brother Freeman shouldn’t have eaten certain foods, that would be said from a medical point of view, not faith."
I don't think common sense eating habits is a medical point of view. Medical science may have adopted this view, but it is not where it was first presented to the human race."
I agree that common sense eating is not a medical point of view.
If someone is going through a physical trial and acts his/her faith in a way that is contrary to medical science I don't think we can say they shouldn't have done that because it isn't a wise thing to do. Faith says I can, but medical science says you better not or else... I personally do not believe Brother Freeman eating butter, cream and sugar had anything to do with his dying. When he had the heart attack during the Corinthian series I believe, he came and preached. Medical Science would have told him to stay home. Actually medical science would have had him in the hospital hooked up to all kinds of machines and various medications. Brother Freeman acted his faith by preaching, in the same way with what he ate while going through his trial. I know everyone is not going to see everything the same, but no doubt we all have to act out our faith in how we believe the Lord would have us to.
If medical science agrees with God's word, then great, but there will be alot of times they will be opposite. Faith in Jesus versus faith in a doctor, or faith in Jesus versus faith in a prescription.
What are people going to do as things get worse for the christian and they can't get medical science help unless they
deny the Lord? Are they going to have faith all of a sudden to trust Jesus now that the other route has been closed? I don't believe so. God is giving us time now to prepare for what is ahead, including to learn to trust Him in all areas of our lives, including the body.
Eat herbs and organic? Fine, but don't put your trust in them to keep you healthy, you put your faith in Jesus Christ to keep you healthy. 3John 2 "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." Here is a key to health: have your soul prosper.
God wants us to take care of His temple, and as we walk close with the Lord we will know if there is something we shouldn't eat, but we need to always have our faith be in Jesus for our health, not in the fear that medical science tries to put on people all in the guise of helping them.
Eat heathly, great. Someone likes organic foods, or no red meat, fine. Just so they don't do it out of fear.
Our standard is God's word, not the medical books. People need to grow in their faith in this area with healing for the body, because it does work and is in the Word of God. But we need to give everyone room to grow, and yet encourage them that God is faithful.
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8413 is a reply to message #8320] |
Tue, 25 October 2011 15:11 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| moulder wrote on Tue, 04 October 2011 19:22 |
| james wrote on Tue, 20 September 2011 13:44 |
Choices...
..."Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of The LORD your God, which I command you this day:
And a curse, if you will not obey the commandments of The LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known."
...
What's changed since these scriptures were written? What's changed since we were taught this in great detail 30 years ago? Gods Word? Our faith? It was crystal clear to me then and it remains clear to me today, we are given the choice, should we make the wrong one we WILL be under a curse (lot of folks speak of a desert experience, hello?)and should we obey, we will walk in blessings.(a tree by the water, yeilding fruit)
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This begs the question: Are curses to be equated to the occult?
I know that being involved in the occult will bring a curse but there are other things that will bring a curse that has nothing to do with the occult... at least as I understand it.
Not that I would recommend one over the other but David was under a curse for a time (for trusting in man) but I don't think we could charge him with occult involvement.
Blessings,
William
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No, I don't believe based on God's Word that curses are to be equated to the occult, only. But like you state, involvement in the occult does bring a curse. We know that curses can and do come from our disobedience as well as the disobedience/sins of our forefathers(generational curses).
The key word is DISOBEDIENCE, God said 'here is the way I command you to walk, obey Me and you'll walk in blessings, refuse and you'll be cursed'. Idolatry covers a LOT more than golden calves, alters, and graven images; reliance in or on anything other than Him (including ourselves) constitutes idolatry. And concerning healing, He specifically said in Exodus 15:26 that if we will OBEY Him He will put none of the diseases upon us, and that He, The LORD, is who healeth us. And Isaiah 53:1-5 describes what He, Jesus, went through so that we could receive salvation and healing.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8414 is a reply to message #8344] |
Tue, 25 October 2011 15:46 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| wishing34 wrote on Thu, 13 October 2011 16:01 |
What if my postings here are being used by the
Holy Spirit to ignite a spark that starts a flame
that sets everyone free from a grievous mistake made years
ago with the pharmekeia teaching.
It only takes one who is currently recognized as five fold
to become convicted about pharmakeia.
What we debate here might greatly help God's people
and save lives.
Jman
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Jman, for the sake of argument let's say that medical science and drugs no longer have occult implications. Even if that should be true, it still doesn't change the bottom line...Christians are commanded to trust in God alone.
Pharmekeia teaching aside, it's still disobedient to God's will for Christians to seek healing and health through any other source other than Him, Jesus Christ. I Peter 2:24 says we're healed by HIS stripes...if He meant through medical science and drugs He would have told us that. James 5:14 says the PRAYER of FAITH (faith in who? doctors and drugs? NO! Faith in Jesus and His work at Calvary...His shed Blood) will save the sick.
There ARE conditions, not that He must meet, conditions that WE must meet...Obedience, confession of sins, pray in FAITH. No where are we instructed to seek medical treatment from any other source.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8423 is a reply to message #8415] |
Wed, 26 October 2011 11:01 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| wishing34 wrote on Tue, 25 October 2011 14:35 |
The reason the pharmakeia discussion is important is
because sometimes a believer is overwhelmed in their faith
for a death door situation. At that point in time
(when they realize that they are without faith for the healing)
they might go to med science and live to fight another day –
unless they think med science is occult.
By changing med science to be “the arm of the flesh” and
not “the occult” you will eventually save lives – when future
parents take their child to med science and live to fight another
day .
Those parents can return home and apply themselves to
maturing their faith for the next time - without loosing a
child in death, without bringing reproach on the church
and the healing message, and without being personally
devastated by the loss.
Jman
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Jman, I have a sincere question about the 'live to fight another day' and 'death door situation' thought. (2 part question) Are you aware of anyone today who still trusts in The Lord to the point they're willing to go to 'death's door' and beyond if He allows? And in mentioning hoping to get the attention of a/some 5-fold ministers who will receive what you're suggesting/saying, are you aware of any '5-fold ministers' who are teaching the same message we received 30 yrs. ago?
I think, based on listening to Tom Hamilton from time to time that he still does and I assume that assembly does, maybe the FA that exist today that Joe Brennaman pastors? but I know nothing much of them. It almost seems to me that you're wanting to apply something in hindsight...like if this approach had been taken 30 yrs. ago. I know I'm not 'in the loop' but I know of no one delivering babies at home and totally trusting in The Lord for healing and health today (except for a very few scattered 'old' sheep)...I would LOVE to be shown that this is not true.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8424 is a reply to message #8423] |
Wed, 26 October 2011 13:08 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| james wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 06:01 |
Jman, I have a sincere question about the 'live to fight another day' and 'death door situation' thought. (2 part question) Are you aware of anyone today who still trusts in The Lord to the point they're willing to go to 'death's door' and beyond if He allows? And in mentioning hoping to get the attention of a/some 5-fold ministers who will receive what you're suggesting/saying, are you aware of any '5-fold ministers' who are teaching the same message we received 30 yrs. ago?
I think, based on listening to Tom Hamilton from time to time that he still does and I assume that assembly does, maybe the FA that exist today that Joe Brennaman pastors? but I know nothing much of them. It almost seems to me that you're wanting to apply something in hindsight...like if this approach had been taken 30 yrs. ago. I know I'm not 'in the loop' but I know of no one delivering babies at home and totally trusting in The Lord for healing and health today (except for a very few scattered 'old' sheep)...I would LOVE to be shown that this is not true.
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1. All true Christians are willing to go to death's door and beyond when the choice is between Jesus and Satan.
2. We all are ambassadors of Jesus, not just the 'five-fold' and what we believe and teach is always going to be important. Now, is the most important time for all of us.
3. Not Jman, but I can answer YES -- I'd love to apply this in hindsight. But since I cannot and because there are multiple hundreds if not thousands of people who were affected by this teaching I'd say that it is high-time we got it right. There were casualties. There were many. We not only owe it to ourselves to get it right, we owe it to them.
I'm telling you James, when you listen to that tape you're listening to a water-shed type of moment. By moving medical science out of the realm of 'a lack of faith' and placing it into the realm of the demonic possession/oppression a dynamic was created that reverberates to this very day. This isn't just reminiscing about the good-old-days -- it has present day ramifications for us all.
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8426 is a reply to message #8425] |
Wed, 26 October 2011 13:55 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| wishing34 wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 08:13 |
I opened this thread with this very question and the immediate response informed me that
the uncompromising message from 30 years ago is still being taught. Later another
poster agreed.
I know you did, that's why I returned to the original post and question. My question is, at this point, has anything changed due to this discussion? The people (at least the ones we 'know')who believe this probably haven't seen anything to convience them otherwise...By being taught, I think Ron was probably refering to individuals moreso than '5-fold', besides Tom Hamilton and probably Bobby Freeman.
The pharmakeia question is still in play as we can see by the lively back and
forth in this thread.
Yet with all the 'liveliness' of discussion, has a verdict been reached? I'm not sure of everyone's motivation in this, but I am willing to prayerfully look at and consider what you or others present to disprove what we were taught by HEF. And I pray that if it's the leading of The Lord to indeed "set people free from a grievious error", that our eyes will be open to see the truth...Let God be true and EVERY man a liar.
I can't help but make this observation, when we were all young and invincible (in our own eyes) it wasn't so hard to 'trust' God for healing and health; now that most of us are approaching our golden years the issue gets a bit more serious. (not speaking for myself, just making a general observation of older Christians on various forums.) I'll say this for Hobart Freeman, he was spot on with the warnings about if things aren't in a man's heart, time will prove it...
Jman
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“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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