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| Submitted Body [message #641] |
Mon, 10 September 2007 20:34  |
 Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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All,
As I continue to go through the Biblical Theology teachings to hear for myself exactly what Dr.Freeman did or didn't say, he seems to reference one of two different heretical groups in most of the sermons. One is the JDS teachers and the other is Submitted Body / Shephardship.
My question to ya'll is this: Has anyone ever heard of a submitted body group? Dr. Freeman mentions this on a regular basis, but I have never heard of such a group in my 35 years, except when mentioned by Dr. Freeman. Does this group really have any followers out there? HEF made a reference to the "Florida Four," so I assume there is/was some presence down there. Maybe I'm just not up-to-date on weird religious groups.
Just curious.
Thanks!
Duncan
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| Re: Submitted Body [message #650 is a reply to message #641] |
Tue, 11 September 2007 23:46  |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Greetings in Jesus Name !
Submitted Body is alive an well in many of the main stream churches today.......they call it by other names but it has not gone away >
Note this from Malcom Webber:
Our Structure
Led by Leaders in the Context of Teams: At Living Faith we are led by leaders and not by commitees. At the same time, leadership teams exist in every part of the life of the church.
God has given each of us the right gifts so we can fulfill His particular will for our lives.
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. (1 Cor. 12:11-12)
God made each of us what we are: our personalities, our gifts and talents, our experiences all contribute to the unique individuals that we are now. We need to be who we are, and to do it well!
In a team, we can have those who are strong in leadership characteristics and those who are strong in management characteristics and those in-between. As each person finds his appropriate place in the flow of things, the team will do well.
If the team, however, makes all the visionary, "big-picture" decisions by unanimous agreement (if that is one's conception of "team leadership"), then many times those decisions will be the wrong ones since they will be made by managers, whose abilities and priorities are fundamentally different from leaders.
We need balance in the team. The leaders need to make the leadership decisions. The managers need to make the management decisions. Together it works very well.
Often, managers in a team will want the leader or leaders to be "accountable." Certainly the leader must be accountable. But this is not accomplished by putting managers in charge of the leader's decisions! If that happens, the organization will never get anywhere.
Thus, what is popularly called "team leadership" in many circles is, in reality, "team management."
Managers should allow leaders to make the leadership decisions, and leaders should allow managers to make management decisions. And those with a strong leadership-management mix in their abilities should clearly understand the nature of the particular decision that is before them and make that decision accordingly. For more on this subject please see Leaders & Managers: SpiritBuilt Leadership #5 by Malcolm Webber.
Accountability:
A team of elders oversees, in a general way, the life of the church. In addition, the senior pastor is formally accountable to two brothers who are outside of Living Faith - they have the legal power to remove him from leadership if such an action became necessary. Thus, at Living Faith we hold a strong balance between giving leaders the necessary authority to lead effectively without their hands being tied by the endless politics of committe-bound church systems, and maintaining an effective structure of accountabiity for the safety of the people and the integrity of the ministry.
Our structure may not be for everyone, but it works very well for us!
NOTE:
(This is the same basic structure that The Flordia Four started with back in the 70's)
The Terms:
Accountability,cell groups(small worship groups) 12 or less in number, splitting up wifes from there husbands in different groups an the children: Team leaders,covering, headship confessing your sins to your covering & trusting in mans wisdom & not the Word of God. Also, if you want to be apart of another church They, the Leaders must RELEASE you FROM there covering before you can be under protection by another group.
Spirit Filled Pastors under submission to Pastor in other locations not even of the same Faith.
Ya might want to check out Rod Parsley web site:World Harvest Church and see if ya find any of these terms used.
Also:
The Vineyard System has always been Submitted Body ask Steve Hill
or SJ Hill as he goes by now. He told me this face to face after
he departed Faith Assembly.
There is hardly a church in Fort Wayne & or Van Wert Ohio that does not have some form of submitted body teaching in there church......
The Missionary Churches in this area: All the Pastor & Elder are
all under submission & control of someone other than the Holy Spirit!
Rick Warren uses the submitted body teaching, small groups an leadership control to guide
his sheep.
Submitted Body......is not dead....just hidden
Ron
Ron
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| Re: Submitted Body [message #651 is a reply to message #650] |
Wed, 12 September 2007 13:31 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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Thanks, Ron.
I appreciate your input. Having never heard an actual sermon on "Submitted Body" but only hearing references, I was unclear as to the whole concept.
It's interesting that you mention Rick Warren and his whole "Purpose Driven" movement. I have always had a severe check in my spirit from the moment I read anything by him. I never thought about it before, but the way he (and his followers) have organized their small groups, I can definitely see your point. I have heard from many that a lot of these groups do not even study the Bible when they get together, but discuss "life issues" and coping with daily life.
I'm not against a group of brothers getting together to meet, but I would like to think it is for the purpose of prayer and Bible study, not to try and discover your purpose in life.
In addition, I do not know anything about Malcolm or Living Faith. I know several people that attend, but I'm not sure where they compare or contrast to FA.
Thanks again for your input. Very informative.
Have a great day!
Duncan
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| Re: Submitted Body [message #656 is a reply to message #651] |
Thu, 13 September 2007 00:31 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Duncan,you're Welcome.
We need leadership...Spirit Filled...Spirit Lead by the Word of God.
Submitted Body / Shepardship points you to mans wisdom & abilities an not to Jesus Christ.
Submitted Body is more concerned with your relationship : with one another rather than your relationship with Jesus Christ.
Next time you hear some of the terms being used,,just ask them: Who is your covering ? Who has headship over you ?
Who is your mentor ? Does your group leader control your life in any way ? ya might be suprised by the answers you get.
Ron
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| Re: Submitted Body [message #676 is a reply to message #656] |
Sat, 15 September 2007 17:13 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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A bit more on "submitted body". It was not so much talking about submission to a Pastor or Elders. It was as someone said earlier about relationship.
Everyone in the body had to be under/over someone else. Any important decisions had to be ok'd by your covering. It was a legalistic attempt to try to bring relationship and accountability.
I had several experiences relating to it. When I was with the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission Pastor Don Spiers who was held by them as an Apostle told that "submitted body" was originated by Juan Carlos Ortiz a Minister from Argentina.
Bro. Don said when he was ministering there he met Juan Carlos who he mentored. He said years later Juan Carlos met with him and told him about a "revelation" he had about discipleship.
The "submitted body" groups were actually known as "discipleship" groups or "shepherding" groups. Bro. Don tried to reason with him from the CPM view of discipleship which is an interesting story in itself. Juan Carlos Ortiz held to his own "revelation". In the body you must have a mentor who is your covering.
This teaching came to America through Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Don Basham and Ern Baxter.
It was taken on by the Jesus People USA in the mid 70's. I visited their group in 1977 and at that time knew very little about this neo discipleship teaching.
Upon our arrival there they immediately separated my friend and I. Each one of us was to stay with a brother from the group who was called "your buddy".
They stayed with us at all times. We did some street witnessing there in Chicago that took my mind of it for a while but it seemed uncomfortable with my buddy always checking on me.
We were setting at a table fellowshipping the second night and I casually mentioned I was going to the bathroom. One of the brothers said "make sure you are covered".
Now I did not quite know how to take that so I assumed they meant tell my "buddy" I was going to the bathroom. Not quite the "liberty" I was used to! Anyway we found out they had accepted this teaching. Some years later they like most of those type groups they let it fall where it belonged "to the wayside".
Main point is there was a difference in these groups than groups that are just ruled with heavy handed authority by a Pastor or Elders. It seems the term "submitted body" was a bit vague. I remember hearing HF speak about it long ago.
As I recall he seemed to push the freedom we have in Christ and body MINISTRY vs the submitted body groups.
[Updated on: Sat, 15 September 2007 17:15]
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| Re: Submitted Body [message #6099 is a reply to message #676] |
Thu, 24 September 2009 21:27 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Rather than start a new thread on Shepherdship, I decided to work from where this Submitted Body one left off a couple of years ago. I 'think' (if I understand correctly) that Submitted Body and Shepherdship is basicly the same error. If I'm wrong in thinking this, please, someone help out.
I have been doing a somewhat limited study on shepherdship/covering/authority of man, ever since jman introduced the thread on 'man in authority'. I can't find a lot of info, I already knew that it was spawned in the 70's and that the 'Florida 4' were the ones who introduced it. But what I didn't know was, that it's still very prevalent today. Many churches today have these 'cell groups' or small study groups. Just today someone told me that the church they attend(about 7,500 members and only started in 2001) has over 900 different cell groups, ranging from 3-4 people to 40-50, with 'mentors' or leadership teams. They like to refer to the cell groups as small churches and do a lot of counciling and mentoring of the new members. One web site had this quote in reference to cell groups and training leadership teams, "God's people are wise when they can understand that God has set leaders over them". I found, in reading several churches web sites, that several names come up regularly. Rick Warren probably leads the list, he seems to be the man when it comes to 'how to do it' in establishing control and authority over others.
Also I see that another term used often is, 'church planting'. A guy named Timothy Keller (he has several books on this subject)gets a lot of credit in being on the cutting edge of how to 'plant' churches. I read quite a bit and hardly ever does anyone mention being lead of The Holy Spirit, it's mostly man made plans, that entails building programs and then exciting ways to keep the flock interested enough to financially support the whole conglomeration.
One church's web page that really endorses the 'plant a church, make it grow to mega-size, quick' mindset, offered training through teachers from some of the more well know 'mega-churches. It's called PCC Coaching Network, and for $2,370 each, a church can enroll their youth pastor, or senior pastor, or group leaders in these courses to learn how to grow membership, organize small group study, increase giving, ect. They advertise teachers/coaches from the more famous mega-churches as a means of drawing in those who want to emulate their 'success'.
Maybe someone who has either experience with, or more teaching on this error, could share. Mark? I know you said you witnessed a lot of Shepherdship error being taught and implemented in the Toronto/Vineyard movement. What about this trend that's sweeping the country to have all these small groups, I understand that bible studies are a good thing, but is that really what these are? Or is it just another way to bring people under the control of 'leadership teams' and mans' covering instead of Jesus Christ?
Comments, anyone?
[Updated on: Fri, 25 September 2009 12:29]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Submitted Body [message #6100 is a reply to message #6099] |
Fri, 25 September 2009 15:14 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Here is the link to an article written 9 years ago, that details a lot of what's going on with these mega-churches and ways that the focus has been taken off Jesus and The Kingdom of God, and put on mankind and man made solutions to the needs of mankind. I thought it was very revealing and helped me understand more of what's behind a lot of what I've encountered lately as I've ventured out into the 'christian community'....a bit. I've been talked to about, and told how wonderful this 'new' way of 'church' is, and how it's reaching a lost world for Jesus.
http://www.crossroad.to/News/Church/Klenck2.html
[Updated on: Fri, 25 September 2009 15:16]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Submitted Body [message #6101 is a reply to message #6100] |
Fri, 25 September 2009 18:35 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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James,
That was an excellent link you put on this topic. It truly has been the frog in the water for many christians over the past couple decades. Things that many would have discerned 20 years ago are now gray areas at best, and blatant deceptions they have embraced at worst. Some have been lulled into a sense of false security because they are part of a church where they feel taken care of, where in reality their faith has been robbed from them. They are no longer encouraged to seek the Lord for themselves, but rather "go to the prayer warriors, they will pray for you." I visited a friends church on many occasions, and they were getting heavily into the false prophets, come to them for prayer, depend on the elders and prayer warriors, small groups, personal words of prophecy, contemplative prayer(mysticism) and other various errors. I must say, I do not ever remember hearing, to my recollection, anything being preached from the pulpit for people to claim a promise of God and hold onto that promise until the Lord fulfilled His promise. Obviously the promise and thing the person was believing for had to line up with God's word.
Rather what I heard was come up front for prayer, our prayer warriors are there ready to pray for you. My friend was a prayer person occasionally, and remembers when someone came up for prayer, one of the other ladies wanted to have her do some Theophostic(much like Inner Healing) healing, have her go back to the dark places in her life and have Jesus go there with her and heal her of that trauma. Now, my friend had studied on the deception of Theophostics so she was well aware of what was going on, and said to just pray for the person, not to do the other. Thankfully my friend saw the deception that was coming in the church and has since left.
At this church they were also getting into small groups, much like the submitted body teaching, although not to the extreme.
The one thing these groups rob people of is their faith. Instead of people going to God in prayer, and trusting God for themselves without all these other people having to pray with them, they start to lean on others, without even realizing what is happening. It is almost like many pastors enjoy having weak, dependent sheep to take care of. I suppose it is easier, then they don't need to walk in a deeper message themselves, and when people are happy they give more money to the church.
There are many different levels of submitted body, some quite blatant and others subtle, but we need to see Jesus Christ preached, and pray for God to give us watchmen on the walls to warn us of such errors and deceptions, and to make sure we are not only grounded in the Word of God, but also are in fellowship and communion with Him daily.
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| Re: Submitted Body [message #6102 is a reply to message #6101] |
Fri, 25 September 2009 21:20 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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I thought so too, Sue. He really gives a lot of information and seems to have a true desire to help Christians be set free from these deceptions. He said in another part of the article that he wasn't a pastor, had no congregation, and didn't have an axe to grind with anyone, he just wanted help the Body of Christ.
I learned quite a bit about this subject, and it gave me material to use when encountering those who've been pulled into these groups. It's one thing to know in your spirit that something is wrong, and avoiding it; but to be able to help others by explaining and pointing them to the truth is more in line with what we're called to do....set the captives free, by returning the focus of Christianity back upon Jesus, instead of man.
[Updated on: Fri, 25 September 2009 21:23]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Submitted Body [message #6214 is a reply to message #641] |
Thu, 12 November 2009 02:04 |
David Coleman
Messages: 319
Registered: October 2009 |
Senior Member |
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I was excommunicated from my office as deacon for teaching the faith message in our church which was a non-denominational Spirit filled I thought. My wife and I would go looking for another church. Boy I learned alot. We were in a church when the teacher announced things that showed me they were a submitted body. I found I was in there adult Sunday school class which was everybody. He asked a question? can anyone show me a situation that would exemplify faith. I raised my hand and said Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. He said that was a terrible example, that that wasn't faith at all. I could see then that this man was a demon minister. The Lord let me know that I must leave from there and that he would blind the peoples eyes from even seeing us. You could tell God was doing this, we walked right through them and they couldn't see us. What a shame. the man had mentioned that all the people owned belong to him but he said it in a indirect way.
faith-- forsake all I trust him. Baal-- believe apostacy all lost. bible-- believe in bible life eternal.
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