Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » Divine healing - every time, no exceptions
| Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8173] |
Sun, 04 September 2011 19:40  |
 wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
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With respect to divine healing like it was taught 30 years ago . .
The best memories I have are from the time when week after
week there was a clear, strong Word preached - healing every time,
no exceptions.
Then tragedies began and there were messages about
doubters, sinners, open doors, Job, etc.
Then more serious and prominent tragedies and then the
down the drain spiral began.
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As I see it right now. That clear uncompromised message is Bible,
demonstrable and undeniable
. . . . BUT . . . .
there is some sort of severe lack in our annointing so that
it does not work.
So believing for healings in serious cases cannot be done
safely at this time.
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Are there any ministers out there still preaching divine healing
in an uncompromised way?
How do they handle the serious cases to avoid tragedies?
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8174 is a reply to message #8173] |
Mon, 05 September 2011 01:48  |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
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Location: Ohio |
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Wishing34 wrote:
As I see it right now. That clear uncompromised message is Bible,
demonstrable and undeniable
………………………………......................................................
I say Amen to that !
Wishing34 wrote:
. . . . BUT . . . .
there is some sort of severe lack in our annointing so that
it does not work.
………………………………............................................
I say:
The anointing is not there because of the denial of the supernatural power that has been
given us !
Note:
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Acts 2:12-13 (KJV)
There are still mockers and doubter in the church today !
………………………………...........................................
Wishing34 wrote:
So believing for healings in serious cases cannot be done
safely at this time.
………………………………...........................................
I say:
Tell that to my wife and she will tell you of the Faithfulness of God and His Word!
Three weeks ago as we were getting ready for Fellowship the pain started on the left side
Of her chest, it went thru to her back, her left arm went numb and she couldn’t breath !
56 years old an exnurse: What did she do ? She called James 5:14-15, Not 911.
In 20 minutes the pain was gone and we were off to fellowship !
Tell her it can’t be done !
============================================================ ===
Wishing 34 wrote:
Are there any ministers out there still preaching divine healing
in an uncompromised way?
……………………………….......................................................
Yes:
Tom Hamilton , Joe Brenneman,James Moseley,Myself and others on OO!
Wishing34 wrote:
How do they handle the serious cases to avoid tragedies?
I say:
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Prov 3:5-6 (KJV)
[Updated on: Mon, 05 September 2011 02:04]
Ron
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8177 is a reply to message #8176] |
Mon, 05 September 2011 03:48 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
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Jman wrote!
I said cannot be done safely at this time.
………………………………...............
I say: Be it unto thee according to Thy Faith !
………………………………...........................
Would you counsel someone at death's door with
a child's diabetes to continue right up
to and through that door?
Jman
Yes !
I would council them and encourage with Gods Word and His Healing Promises !
But……
If a person is fearful of the consequences if it doesn’t work, it’s not faith !
Get help !
Ron
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8178 is a reply to message #8176] |
Mon, 05 September 2011 04:18 |
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william
Messages: 1463
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| Quote: |
I said cannot be done safely at this time.
Would you counsel someone at death's door with
a child's diabetes to continue right up
to and through that door?
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I agree with Ron's earlier response on this but since you've narrowed your comments to focus on how we council others a few thoughts come to mind. But first let me say that it seems contradictory for you to say that the bible is authoritative and at the same time say that we can't safely rely on what it says. But setting that aside for now, I do think that we ought to be very careful in advocating a course of action for those who may not have faith in God. In those situations your argument about needing an anointing has merit.
We all know that the bible speaks about the gifts of healing. I believe that the gifts (1Cor12) are primarily for the good of others. If someone has the gifts of healing then by all means exercise those gifts and we'll all see the results and be edified as the body of Christ.
If, on the other hand, we are exercising faith in God for our healing (as opposed to having the gift) then (again--primarily) the results are going to be more personal in nature and not necessarily for the benefit of others. I'm saying (not very articulately!) that we should embrace God's promises and hold fast to them no matter what as they relate to our personal experience but unless we have some kind of anointing (like the gifts of healing) we should probably let others develop their own faith and figure out for themselves how to walk it out.
Exceptions? Sure. Your example expresses a dilemma... what if it is a child, or someone whose well-being has been entrusted to us? In that kind of situation I can only believe that God is not going to allow something to overwhelm us without giving us the tools to cope with the situation. Like someone once said, if you have faith to believe for the salvation of the whole town, go ahead, but for most of us our sphere of faith is going to be much closer to home.
That said --your note implies (although not explicitly) that medical science is the ultimate answer for those not having faith and/or the anointing... I don't believe that to be a valid assumption.
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8179 is a reply to message #8178] |
Mon, 05 September 2011 04:55 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
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I also agree with William, ref the caution on counseling others .
I can’t tell anyone how to exercise their faith but I can stand
with them if they so desire to reach out and Trust Jesus for their healing !
Ron
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8184 is a reply to message #8183] |
Tue, 06 September 2011 00:19 |
Mark L
Messages: 855
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
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So are you looking at this from a intellectual point of view. Just thinking and provoking discussion? Nothing wrong with that. Is this a thought through belief for you?
I would agree with everything the other bros have said.
I would also add from what I have seen in churches that are small enough for a pastor to personally pastor you generally don't get problems like this. Because the pastor has a finger on his peoples spiritual life and is in a position to recognize when things are going wrong.
To me one of the keys here is to dwell in the secret place of most high. Dwelling there you will be in tune with God and your own spiritual life.
I say people should not attempt faith near death's door. . .
until I Cor12 and apostles begin to happen.
I think you're going a little too far there.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8186 is a reply to message #8183] |
Tue, 06 September 2011 01:55 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| wishing34 wrote on Mon, 05 September 2011 18:39 |
I say people should not attempt faith near death's door. . .
until I Cor12 and apostles begin to happen.
in a soundbyte:
Something is wrong so stay away from death's door.
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Jman, I agree that people shouldn't attempt faith near death's door. Faith is not something we attempt, one either has it or not, and if the answer is not, then I'd highly recommend getting on one's face before God until they have settled in their heart that they are born-again, filled with The Holy Spirit, and TRUST God to do and be all He has promised. There are most definately conditions to be met by a believer to receive of God's promises, including healing. Faith is conditional; seeing God is conditional...Without FAITH it's impossible to please Him Heb.11:6
I don't believe anyone needs an Apostle present in order to be healed, nor do I believe one has to be in a local assembly of believers where the gifts are present to be healed. I fully agree that the 'church' as is present in the world today lack the gifts and divine healing and every other God ordained functions such as the 5-fold ministry. But individual followers of Jesus Christ scattered throughout the world are believing for and receiving healings from God every day.
Faith isn't found through the intellect, faith comes by hearing/reading The Word of GOD and believing that He who makes these promises will bring them to pass. It's been said over and over, but simple, child-like taking God at His Word and holding on is the essence of faith. (James 1:1-8)
I also agree with what William was saying that there is a difference between individuals believing for their and their family's healings and the gift of healing as is set in The Body for the healing of others. I don't have the 'gift of healing', but I've prayed for and received healing many times over the last 30 years.
I wouldn't advise anyone to 'believe The Lord' for anything if they weren't in FAITH concerning it, much less being at deaths door. But as Ron said, I will pray with and agree to stand with any brothers or sisters who are trusting Jesus alone as healer and deliverer.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,â€
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8194 is a reply to message #8186] |
Wed, 07 September 2011 00:55 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
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wishing34 wrote on Mon, 05 September 2011 18:39
I say people should not attempt faith near death's door. . .
until I Cor12 and apostles begin to happen.
in a soundbyte:
Something is wrong so stay away from death's door.
****************************************************
What shall we do then ?
Oh ? I know ! Let’s put our Faith in the Physicians of this world.
Should I trust in the Doctors from India, you know the Hindus. They could call on
There gods for wisdom cause ours doesn’t have the power to fulfill His promises.
What about all the Muslim Doctors ? They could call out to Muhammed and get
Instructions from the Quran .
They all say they believe in Jesus, so they must be apart of the church also.
Tho I can’t find any apostles in these groups either !?
Well maybe I could find a good Jewish Doctor, opps forgot, He doesn’t recognize
Jesus as Lord and Savior .Not a candidate for apostleship, that wont work.
Now I’ve been told we have some really good Christians Doctors here in town, but
Non of them claim to be apostles either, that won’t work!
Now I got inside information on all these doctors. They all practice witchcraft in
One form or another ! Yes, I know it has been legalized in this country.
So what do we do now Brother Jman ?
I say:
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Prov 3:5-6 (KJV)
Ron
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8203 is a reply to message #8173] |
Wed, 07 September 2011 03:34 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
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Hi,
Moulder, in a different thread you referenced this healing thread
mixing it with the other mark of the beast topic.
I am not clear for sure on your meaning, but I think I got it.
( I hope I am not making up an entirely new question )
you said:
'Can one safely rely on God to feed and provide without taking 'the mark'? '
Are you saying => if we cannot safely go to death's door as I say here in
this thread then can we safely go to 'starvation's door' at the time of the mark?
------
insert positive confession here - no one expects to be around mid-trib
------
thinking . . .
thinking some more . . .
A very interesting question ( I hope it was truly what you meant )
-----------------
aside: This whole thought process happens because the signs/wonders are
missing - something that is unbiblical and should be impossible
for us to see happen.
So we are in uncharted waters - asking what is right to do when the
proper, normal annointing is missing
ultimate bottom line is get the annointing to work and then see immediate
manifestaions happen on time- no exceptions, every time.
-----------------
I have made a distinction between misc prayer
requests and those prayers that require an immediate manifestation.
Healing right before death is an immediate situation.
Since signs/wonders are a form of God doing an immediate manifestation
and they are missing I then warn to avoid prayers that need an immediate
manifestation such as at death's door. . . .saying such immediate acts of
God do not happen in our experience so we cannot safely attempt such prayers.
--------------
With respect to starving in the trib without the mark . . .
it would be weeks to die of starvation but it really is sort of an immediate
manifestation that is needed.
believers would have no choice but to face starvation in the trib just the same
as a hypothetical accident victim might have no choice but to face
death's door after a car wreck.
Both (death's door healing/immenent starvation) cannot be done safely in the current state
of the church (church is the people) in my opinion - because they require
immediate action from God which does not reliably happen in our experience.
Both should be avoided if at all possible, given an option.
Not given the option then the believer can only do the best he can to survive
while staying faithful.
how that is walked -> is up to each believer and the critics should keep quiet.
-------------
after thought ----
If one sees as I do that the promised, immediate manifestation things are
missing... reason unknown, who to blame unkown
then . . .
possibly the brethern who experienced tragedies approx 30 years
ago were not to blame that immediate, life saving manifestations did
not occur.
Maybe there was a larger problem in play- that we lacked annointing to
see immediate manifestations at all.
A larger problem that is still ignored and continues even to this day.
jman
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8204 is a reply to message #8173] |
Wed, 07 September 2011 13:48 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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A different issue that relates.
JWBTI said
' They all practice witchcraft in One form or another '
I gather it is still taught that to go for medical help
is to go to the occult, to go to the devil for your healing.
===================================
Mucho years ago, as I recall, the teaching was . . .
Pharmakeia means witchcraft so pharmacy things (meaning drugs)
are witchcraft.
The origins of med science is that in Bible times - until the
middle ages - they were practicing the occult - divination,magic,etc
so modern med science is still witchcraft
=====================================
Any other "proofs" that medical science is occult ?
Maybe I am not up to date.
===========================
===========================
If the med science = occult idea is removed then hypothetical brother
Zeke with the diabetic baby has much less of a problem going to
the hospital for help . . .
he missed it on a faith challenge/trial
he went to the arm of the flesh
but he could pick up,dust off, get forgiveness
from God, and go forward having "missed it" no worse than
others who miss it in other faith trials.
and live to fight another day
and he and the assembly are not ridiculed for failure which
is different than Biblical persecution
if the medical science = occult idea is an error then
grievous guilt/condemnation is heaped on people in error
======================================================
So. . . could anyone please educate me further as to why
medical science is occult or witchcraft?
theological 'logical' reasonings encouraged
Biblical proof hoped for
If you are going to quote special revelations that
people have had then you are going to loose me.
Or do people no longer believe the going to medical
science is occult contact?
Jman
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8214 is a reply to message #8209] |
Fri, 09 September 2011 00:21 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Jman wrote,
The death's door healing is very similar to a sign/wonder because in both cases we need
God to do an immediate manifestation of His power.
Let's admit we lack annointing, ability by faith, close walk with God,
(or whatever it need be called )
to see these type of immediate manifestations.
I say people should not attempt faith near death's door. . .
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------
Brother Jman,
This is real life, Not hypothetical,
Every week I face 20-30 dear souls at Bible Study, I see the pain, the hopelessness in
There eyes and on there faces. Half of them range in the ages of 60 to 90 years old,
All of which had given there whole life over to medical science. Now they are told
There is nothing more we can do for you. Just live with your incurable diseases and
pains.
The pastors wife, age 42 has MS, they have given her no hope. Some of the younger
Ones have issues also, but because they have no insurance or the money to pay for
Treatment, they are turned down for medical care.
I admit my short falls and lack of anointing, my heart is broken for these people.
I would cherish the day that I could wave my hand over the whole group and see the
Immediate manifestations. But until that times comes, I can only point them to
Faith in Gods Word and use what faith I have to stand with them Even near Death Door !
Because that’s all they have !
Ron
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8242 is a reply to message #8204] |
Mon, 12 September 2011 16:32 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| wishing34 wrote on Wed, 07 September 2011 08:48 |
I gather it is still taught that to go for medical help
is to go to the occult, to go to the devil for your healing.
james' answer in blue...
If it isn't it should be.
===================================
Any other "proofs" that medical science is occult ?
Maybe I am not up to date.
If what you've been taught isn't proof enough, then I doubt seriously that you'd receive any further teaching.
===========================
===========================
If the med science = occult idea is removed then hypothetical brother
Zeke with the diabetic baby has much less of a problem going to
the hospital for help . . .
he missed it on a faith challenge/trial
he went to the arm of the flesh
but he could pick up,dust off, get forgiveness
from God, and go forward having "missed it" no worse than
others who miss it in other faith trials.
and live to fight another day
and he and the assembly are not ridiculed for failure which
is different than Biblical persecution
I beg to differ with you Jman, standing on God's Word and being ridiculed for it, IS Biblical persecution...especially when the authorities become involved.
if the medical science = occult idea is an error then
grievous guilt/condemnation is heaped on people in error
IF??? but it's not an error. But based on your argument it looks like you have decided it is...
======================================================
So. . . could anyone please educate me further as to why
medical science is occult or witchcraft?
Like I said, if you haven't received that which has been taught in the past, then I can't see you receiving it today...after all, the foundational truths of divine healing and health has been laid out extensively, as have the origins of medical science.
theological 'logical' reasonings encouraged
Biblical proof hoped for
If you are going to quote special revelations that
people have had then you are going to loose me.
Or do people no longer believe the going to medical
science is occult contact?
I'm sure there are many who have 'changed their mind' and returned to the arm of the flesh, that doesn't change it from being an open door to oppression and result in chastisement.
Jman, if you would please, go over the the Introduction section and read the thread on "Why I Would Rather Trust Jesus", there is some good info there and one small testimony...thanks, james
Jman
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[Updated on: Mon, 12 September 2011 23:11]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,â€
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8245 is a reply to message #8173] |
Tue, 13 September 2011 02:17 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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| Quote: |
If what you've been taught isn't proof enough, then I doubt seriously that you'd receive any further teaching.
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To me Christianity is defined only by the Scriptures.
This pharmakeia/occult topic is a good case in point.
=======================
Is the following from the Scriptures?
Pharmakeia means witchcraft in the Bible.
Pharmakeia also means the use of drugs.
Therefore all use of drugs is witchcraft.
or is it man's logic?
or is it a revelation via the elders that everyone walks in
(possibly I have set aside "revelations to the elders" that others still keep)
I say the logic that says "therefore all drug use is occult" is faulty man's logic.
That it is the application of logic and not Scriptures.
On point to the above (in this thread) diabetes example . . .
A drug that is fully understood - say insulin that does a known chemical reaction
in the blood - is NOT MAGIC.
| Quote: |
origins of medical science
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When we say modern med science is occult because of the origins we need to re-evaluate
The origins of chemistry go back to Alchemy -- a very occult system with potients
and spells. Do we want to declare modern chemistry occult because of its occult origins
and avoid car batteries, soap, drain cleaner, plastics, various clothing materials ,
almost everything in modern life?
The "origins means it is occult" theory needs a re-think.
| Quote: |
Jman, if you would please, go over the the Introduction section and read the thread on "Why I Would Rather Trust Jesus", there is some good info there and one small testimony...thanks, james
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I did not see the med science/occult topic dealt with in any depth.
===========================================================
You can see that I reject the pharmakeia logical argument
and the "origins" argument so I have no reason to believe that
medical science is occult.
Jman
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8247 is a reply to message #8246] |
Tue, 13 September 2011 05:12 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| wishing34 wrote on Mon, 12 September 2011 21:52 |
Hi,
My original question was :
Are there any ministers out there still preaching divine healing
in an uncompromised way?
How do they handle the serious cases to avoid tragedies?
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I don't know, I would think there are, but have no proof since I don't follow or have the ability to know what is taught by ministers 'out there'. And since I don't I should have not commented on the question, sorry to have done so.
"You can see I reject the pharmakeia logical argument and the "origins" argument so I have no reason to believe medical science is occult."
As to what you have decided to reject or believe is your choice, we each are face with that and each answer for our own choices.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,â€
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8263 is a reply to message #8253] |
Mon, 19 September 2011 07:52 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
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Administrator |
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It is an interesting topic... especially since this is the one area that has been and still is the rock of offense in our circles.
I've said elsewhere on here that the branding of medical science as occult was probably the watershed event in Faith Assembly's history. The idea was presented in OT Theology. From that point opting to trust in medical science ceased from being a mere 'lack of faith in God' to an active turning away from God and seeking help from Satan. Just as Saul sought help from the witch of Endor and paid dearly for it, those who sought help from other 'deities' were doing so at the peril of their own souls.
It was a game changer.
Not one of us has perfect faith (yet! <grin>) and there are times in our lives that we haven't fully trusted in God for our finances, our deliverance, or our health. Like the apostles who stayed on the boat as Peter walked on the water, we too have found ourselves arranging our lives so as to avoid all contact with the unknown. But just as the apostles matured in their faith and eventually 'got it right' we too are maturing and learning to trust God in more profound ways.
More and more we learn that it is much better to 'trust in the Lord'.
We learn that a life that is dependent upon Him is not as scary a prospect as it once was and over time we even begin to enjoy this aspect of our walk with Him.
This is the way it works in most of the aspects of our lives. Our faith grows and deepens each and every day. Not only did the disciples of the NT learn to depend on God in this way but this was the pattern for the children of Israel as they begin their journey in the wilderness.
With that as background we can see that God expects for us to depend on Him and that He is displeased when we do not. (Just look at the trouble that befell those who continued to resist His provision in the wilderness.)
BUT... it became a completely different ball game when they begin to actively seek to appease other gods in their quest for deliverance. When they made for themselves idols and turned away from the living God (who, by the way, had been miraculously providing them with *all* they had needed) their fate was sealed. They had crossed the line from learning to trust in God and maturing in their faith to actively turning away from Him by seeking the gods of the people... this was the abomination.
Learning to walk by faith day by day and the joy that comes from that pursuit ceases when the alternative is damnation; one who chooses to turn to other 'gods' for protection and deliverance has nothing to look forward to, all hope ceases.
By choosing this route one rejects God's provision and can no longer count on His blessings. At this point it is no longer a process of learning to trust but it is active rebellion against God. It matters not whether one's faith has matured to the point of being able to jump out of the boat in the face of the wind and waves; at this point it is a matter of rejecting God and no one wants (or wanted) to do that. That was our situation and it is no surprise that many would rather die than contemplate apostasy. No Christian would choose that route even if it meant death.
This is why the topic is so important. It is one thing to turn at the last minute to your brother-in-law for the money you need to pay the rent instead of trusting that God will miraculously supply but it is altogether different to turn away from God as Saul did and seek our help/healing/deliverance from Satan which is what we do if all medical science is occult.
So is it merely a lack of faith or is it apostasy to seek medical help?
Not that I'm commending a lack of faith but surely those brothers and sisters who made up our assembly can see the distinction I'm trying to make concerning this topic? In our circles this was not about faith or the lack thereof but about choosing God, or choosing Satan... at least that is what it became.
People with no faith for healing were choosing to die because of what the alternative meant.
Martyrs throughout history have done the same thing... maybe the circumstances were different but essentially it boiled down to either choosing God, or choosing Satan. They were willing to choose God even without His miraculous intervention and they will no doubt be rewarded extravagantly for their choice. I also believe those who have made that choice in our circles will be beneficiaries of the same reward even if this question is answered differently than we were taught... it is always better to trust in the Lord.
That said, I do think that this type of discussion is sorely needed if for no other reason than to clarify in our own minds the difference between a lack of faith and/or a lack of fidelity to God.
I hope the extent of the conversation doesn't degenerate into two camps-- those who 'hold fast' to the teaching verses those who do not--but hopefully it can be a fruitful discussion that will lead us into a solid understanding of why we believe what we believe which should help us to stand on the solid rock and give us wisdom in dealing with those who have no clue about any of this.
Paul taught us that there are those who are weak in the faith and there are those who are strong. Those with scruples, and those who are free. In either case we are admonished to recognize that each will stand or fall based upon their relationship to Him, and that He is able to make us all to stand!
How one answers the question may very well determine whether or not his conscience is violated. I know that some have never even considered that going to medical science might be occult but the fact remains that many did and were willing to pay the ultimate price for their beliefs. Rightly or wrongly they held fast to what they believed and I think that is to be commended, not derided.
Others believed that it was apostasy and when they succumbed to fear and turned to medical science for help their conscience condemned them. I'm sure there are many in this category who have not recovered even to this day... my prayer is that they will realize that it is the devil who condemns and that Jesus is the repairer of the conscience.
Let's not forget that there exists another group... a group that has never even considered that medical science might be idolatry. What should our message to them be?
Hopefully someone will have some good answers!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8265 is a reply to message #8263] |
Mon, 19 September 2011 19:33 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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That's some pretty good articulating there, William. btw: rent is coming up soon, can I have your brother-in-law's phone number? 
"Let's not forget that there exist another group...a group that has never even considered that medical science might be idolatry. What should our message to them be?"
Seriously, other than to point one to the scriptures that pertain to obedience, trust, healing, and divine health, I don't know what else to say...The message is the same, we give them the message we were given...and if we've learned anything, it's leave the rest up to them, WITHOUT PRESSURE(pray with them if desired, stand in faith with them, encourage and love), but allow them the same mercy we hope for if we should stumble.
In hindsight, I personally should be ashamed <and was> because in 2006 I let down my shield of faith and allowed myself to be talked into going to medical science...with NO positive results, wasted thousands of dollars; it took repentance to be restored to health.(Yes, repentance and deliverance.) I can give testimony after testimony of what God has done for me over the last 30 years(except for the one time in 2006, which He healed me as promised after I got right with Him...but even in that experience where I sinned against my Lord, yep it was sin for me because I KNEW better, but I learned a lesson I'll cherish forever>) but if a person doesn't want to believe, or is unwilling to seek The Lord about it then it's up to them. I'm not going to use scare tactics or coercion.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,â€
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8269 is a reply to message #8267] |
Mon, 19 September 2011 22:43 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Jman wrote: Sept 4, 2011
As I see it right now. That clear uncompromised message is Bible,
demonstrable and undeniable
. . . . BUT . . . .
there is some sort of severe lack in our anointing so that
it does not work.
So believing for healings in serious cases cannot be done
safely at this time.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------
I think Jman has a valid point here:
(there is some sort of severe lack in our anointing so that
it does not work.)
Is it the anointing we are lacking, or is it a lack of our Faith to step out
when a situation arises and say:
Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee:
In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Acts 3:6 (KJV)
We have all been given a measure of Faith, are we willing to use it, or are we
dumping the responsibility of Believing totally on the ones we are praying for ?
Just speaking from experience. (repenting now)
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------
James said:
That's some pretty good articulating there, William.
I say Amen to both James and William.
and
Thanks to Jman for bringing up these issues !
------------------------------------------------------------ --
Jman wrote:
How about with respect to the “med science is occult” teaching - telling them the exact truth.
I say Amen to James on this !
"As to what you have decided to reject or believe is your choice, we each are face with that and each answer for our own choices."
Ron
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8271 is a reply to message #8270] |
Tue, 20 September 2011 02:51 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| grandom wrote on Mon, 19 September 2011 19:16 |
A most curious question arises in my mind.
What of the Drs. and nurses who have heard the faith message and
remain in the medical profession. If and it seems most everyone
agrees the medical profession is occult, what of the people who
remain in it. Are they occult practioners, witches, warlocks?
What say you learned Brothers and Sisters?
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Well, I don't think I've given my opinion yet. Opinions aren't really what we are after anyway, right? Opinions allow others to take the broad-stroked brush and paint us into this corner or that but really don't address the main problems inherent to either side.
Okay, that was an opinion but let me explain what I mean. Jman pointed out that while the origin of a profession or a practice might have some unsavory elements it doesn't necessarily hold true that the modern version of the practice is to be defined by its ancient practitioners.
Science doesn't have to be derived from a witches' brew of ingredients smoldering over the flame of a candle burning in the middle of a pentagram (although you sometimes wonder how they come up with some of those theories!<grin>). I think that everyone here can appreciate *true* science. Science and religion are not at odds with each other (again, talking about *true* science here).
The desire to help someone who is sick is a commendable calling. It has been said that if you break your arm you'd probably want someone who had a little scientific knowledge about bone structure and a smidgen of biology to help you out of your predicament. Can we pray? Sure. Can God heal a broken bone? Absolutely. Can you have someone set the bone? Why not?
Someone with scientific knowledge can prepare you a set of lens that will enable your aging eyes to see better... is this what we are talking about when we refer to medical science? I hope not. (Hope I didn't lose anyone here... this just happened to be a biggie back in the day!)
If you are believing for your eyesight I'm not suggesting that this is the way to act your faith... just so you know... but neither do I think you can attribute getting a pair of glasses with occultism.
I don't want to spend a lot of time giving example after example of situations in the medical field that have nothing to do with the occult as most of you can come up with your own examples where this would be true. So there, an absolute statement that all of medical science is occult is not accurate.
Multiple thousands of nurses take care of the sick everyday and not all of them are priestesses of Satan. Compassion for the sick is an attribute that not all of us have... thank God there are those who have this ministry otherwise we would have little time to do anything except visit the sick!
I'll leave defending surgeons to someone a little less squeamish than myself especially since I'm not convinced that they aren't sadists at heart anyway.
Leaving all of the ways that medical science could be useful and 'scientific' we come to parts that are more closely related to the ancient practitioners of occultic magic--drugs.
We probably unfairly lumped everything together in our youthful zeal (all aspects of medical science) but at the heart of it all was the issue of drugs...
Unfortunately I'm out of time today folks, but if you'll tune in next week, same time, same place... (and keep those cards and letters coming!) I will give you a good ole dose of light-hearted medicine that will keep you in stitches... until then, good night, and God bless!
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8272 is a reply to message #8271] |
Tue, 20 September 2011 03:32 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| moulder wrote on Mon, 19 September 2011 21:51 |
Jman pointed out that while the origin of a profession or a practice might have some unsavory elements it doesn't necessarily hold true that the modern version of the practice is to be defined by its ancient practitioners.
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You know? That exactly the same argument made by those who have decided that it's really OK to celebrate that "Most wonderful time of the year", regardless of the mountains of evidence showing the origins and almost all the various rituals came directly from paganism. But hey, say they, "I don't think about all that negative stuff when I celebrate baby jesus' birthday". And the same excuses are given for Halloween and Easter.
But what'da I know? I DO KNOW what God's Word says about idolatry and pagan worship, and I do know the way He dealt with those involved in it...I would suggest some folks read The Book if there are questions, eternity is a long time to be sorry.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,â€
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8273 is a reply to message #8272] |
Tue, 20 September 2011 03:52 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| james wrote on Mon, 19 September 2011 22:32 |
| moulder wrote on Mon, 19 September 2011 21:51 |
Jman pointed out that while the origin of a profession or a practice might have some unsavory elements it doesn't necessarily hold true that the modern version of the practice is to be defined by its ancient practitioners.
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You know? That exactly the same argument made by those who have decided that it's really OK to celebrate that "Most wonderful time of the year", regardless of the mountains of evidence showing the origins and almost all the various rituals came directly from paganism. But hey, say they, "I don't think about all that negative stuff when I celebrate baby jesus' birthday". And the same excuses are given for Halloween and Easter.
But what'da I know? I DO KNOW what God's Word says about idolatry and pagan worship, and I do know the way He dealt with those involved in it...I would suggest some folks read The Book if there are questions, eternity is a long time to be sorry.
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But it isn't the same argument or at least it isn't one that can be applied universally... Jman goes on to show that it isn't a 'universal' truth that forever prohibits anything good from coming out of a tradition that was rooted in occultism. He gave chemistry as an example. I'm not ready to give up on my battery operated toys just yet!
There is no equivalency in those examples.
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8274 is a reply to message #8269] |
Tue, 20 September 2011 06:06 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| JWBTI wrote on Mon, 19 September 2011 17:43 |
Jman wrote: Sept 4, 2011
As I see it right now. That clear uncompromised message is Bible,
demonstrable and undeniable
. . . . BUT . . . .
there is some sort of severe lack in our anointing so that
it does not work.
So believing for healings in serious cases cannot be done
safely at this time.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------
I think Jman has a valid point here:
(there is some sort of severe lack in our anointing so that
it does not work.)
Is it the anointing we are lacking, or is it a lack of our Faith to step out
when a situation arises and say:
Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee:
In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Acts 3:6 (KJV)
We have all been given a measure of Faith, are we willing to use it, or are we
dumping the responsibility of Believing totally on the ones we are praying for ?
Just speaking from experience. (repenting now)
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------
James said:
That's some pretty good articulating there, William.
I say Amen to both James and William.
and
Thanks to Jman for bringing up these issues !
------------------------------------------------------------ --
Jman wrote:
How about with respect to the “med science is occult” teaching - telling them the exact truth.
I say Amen to James on this !
"As to what you have decided to reject or believe is your choice, we each are face with that and each answer for our own choices."
|
Your last statement gets to the heart of the matter, really this is the point we're all dancing around...
If our conclusion is that *all* medical science is occult... and if we love our brothers and sisters... there is only one course of action and it cannot be 'to each his own'. Our only course of action under these conditions is to do whatever we can to warn against occultic practices... we are to pull them out of the fire at any cost. Forget whether or not they have faith for healing... we're talking about their eternal standing, not some optional choice that we should leave to chance. If your mother decided to visit a fortune teller would you tell her "well, that's your choice"? I think not.
That is a position that we'd take if someone obviously didn't have faith for healing... (not saying that we wouldn't strongly encourage them to believe God, but we wouldn't give them the dire warning that their actions were bordering on apostasy).
One we would encourage to get into the Word of God; build up their faith; learn to trust, etc., but the other we would attempt to stop at all costs--even if they did not have faith for healing.
I may be blowing it all out of proportion (if I am please let me know) especially since I seem to be unable to get this crucial point across, but don't you all see that this very question (occult or lack of faith) has been the underlying theme of most of our troubles?
We tend to be a suspicious bunch always hedging our agreements until we can be assured that the person we are agreeing with is totally pure--doctrinally speaking, but surely we are mature enough to listen to valid points even if they are coming from someone who 'may' hold to a viewpoint that 'may' be different from the 'official' stance.
I almost resent (just making a point here!) having to state my own credentials in order to be heard on this matter but knowing our background (and even my own suspicious nature!) let me say that I am fully 100% convinced that healing is in the atonement; God doesn't need or work through medical science; true healing is divine healing and that is only through one source--Jesus Christ; He has been and remains my only source of healing; I have nothing to do with medical science; I am not defending medical science; I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything outside of trusting in Him completely and I don't celebrate Christmas!<grin>
So, you may ask, why the interest in this particular thread and why is this issue is so important to me?
It is important because of the people whose lives have been shattered due to their understanding of the question we've been considering.
As I see it you have at least three groups:
1) those family members who lacked faith for healing and lost loved ones because they thought that any association with medical science was occult. This resulted in great condemnation for those who were responsible. (We all know the miserable track record of medical science and that even had they gone that route a successful outcome wasn't guaranteed, but try telling that to someone who has lost a loved one...)
2) those who lost their faith because they believed medical science was occult and when they chose that route they in effect condemned themselves.
3) those kids who grew up in the atmosphere of the above two groups.
So, the question remains... occult or not?
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Tue, 20 September 2011 06:24]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8275 is a reply to message #8273] |
Tue, 20 September 2011 07:04 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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I just wrote an entire page for two hours and accidently erased the entire thing. So, this response will not be as detailed as I originally wanted. I do want to respond. I have questioned many things for years.
I believe that medicine in various forms, hormones (insulin) good food or junk food, herbs, drinks of all kinds, exercise, vitamins, stimulis from without as in sun, TV, or computer screens, and sanitation principles all cause simple chemical reactions within the body. I am sure there are many more things that would be in this group, including the OT Law that kept God's people from the plague of the Middle Ages. I feel that it is up to the individual as to how much "reaction" you feel is right or wrong for you and in the form in which it is delivered. Most of the above is simple chemistry.
I don't believe it is occult to balance your physiology or body with components unless they alter your mind. I feel that this is where the occult comes into play.
I also believe that medicine is a science that is practiced. Absolutely, mistakes are made. I am not here to totally defend medicine. However, I do believe that many things have been proven to be helpful, and are controlled (insulin) and are useful to people. In the end, it is their choice whatever the substance may be, including food and simple, but important, health choices we make everyday.
I see no difference between caffeine and insulin. Both are used to supplement the system in order to cause the reaction that is wanted at the time both are used. As a matter of fact, insulin will not give you the "buzz" that caffeine will induce. The pancreatic hormone (insulin) will only allow the body to maintain that particular endocrine system. The difference is that insulin is regulated and caffeine is not. It is readily available to anyone who chooses this, "stimulant, drug, or form of medicine," if you will.
So, where do we draw the line and just what is the real balance?
Being in the medical field, I have seen a lot. I have seen many things we were taught, as well as, much help given to many. I have seen a man's beating heart in open heart surgery clogged with plaque due to him eating junk food his entire life and not exercising properly. I have even seen a better diet handed to someone who did not understand what foods are good and bad for their particular situation.
I have cleaned and smelled things that you would have to be there to believe due to the fact that they could not do it themselves. Because of the access I have, I have also whispered in many, many ears the plan of salvation hours before death. I have also seen reactions and monitors go off, when sharing, when they are comatose or semi-comatose. You can't tell me they did not hear me, especially when a few had tears rolling down their cheeks as "vegetables."
After sharing all of this, just what do I still believe from FA, some might ask? God knows my heart and this is true.
I will use this thread to share that Jesus delivered me, tonight, from a heart attack. All of the symptoms were there trying to scream in my head and ear. I had a peace that passes all understanding knowing that nothing can touch me unless He allows it.
So, again, where do we draw the line? I draw it where Jesus wants me to, that is where. Only He knows my heart and what I understand to be true to His Word.
I will also share that He is leading me, somewhat, out of the medical field. When all of that happens, I will share with OO.
As an RN, I hope you respect my opinion, as much as, I respect each and everyone else here on OO.
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8276 is a reply to message #8275] |
Tue, 20 September 2011 11:41 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Hi William,
I wasn't equating celebrating the holidays with medical science, I was saying that it's been my experience that it's the same mindset that justifies the choices made. But idolatry is idolatry, whether it happened in the year 2000 BC or in 2000 AD. And I'm not one to 'dance all around an issue', I may/could be wrong about something, but at least I will plainly speak what I believe...but you're right, we do have some dancers. As to sharing the truth and pulling them out of the fire, not saying to each his own...I wasn't saying to jman, 'to each his own'; I said we each are responsible for what we reject or believe and I was saying it to one who has been taught the truth. I would and have shared differently with ones who haven't been taught the truth about medical science(such as my own family). He already knows, he's chosen to believe differently, THAT is his choice...not that I'm saying that it doesn't matter to God, IT DOES, but we're given free will...to chose life or death, obey or disobey, God or man......
Hi Gillyann,
You stated that "He is leading me, somewhat, out of the medical field."
And that as an RN you want your opinion respected.
That's great that you're leaving 'the medical field',( surely you don't think 'He' lead you into it in the first place?) I'm saying this in love and without condemnation and at the risk of being scorned by others who might believe differently; but you've opened doors to serious oppression that need closing(I know that intellectually you know this, having been taught deliverance and the experiences you've openly shared here, but sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees when we're too involved in something)
I respect you as a person, and have shown you respect over the last 3 1/2 years but I don't have a lot of respect for the titles such as 'RN' (registered nurse)or MD (medical doctor). I'm sure as an RN you have tons of stories of both 'good' and 'bad' experiences around medical science, that doesn't change the truth one iota...
Love ya'll in Jesus, I ain't mad...<smile>
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,â€
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8277 is a reply to message #8274] |
Tue, 20 September 2011 12:56 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| moulder wrote on Tue, 20 September 2011 01:06 |
We tend to be a suspicious bunch always hedging our agreements until we can be assured that the person we are agreeing with is totally pure--doctrinally speaking, but surely we are mature enough to listen to valid points even if they are coming from someone who 'may' hold to a viewpoint that 'may' be different from the 'official' stance.
|
There is that, but truth be told, I've known from the get go that GWB(Gillyann) was involved in medical science and I believe I've treated her with respect even though I didn't agree with everything she said. I am of the 'opinion' that we get along well considering the 'differences' of interpretation of grey areas/liberty that's represented here. You and I don't agree on everything, but I still respect your opinions(or should I say, the right to have a different opinion). btw: I hope it's not me that causes you to feel the need to state what you believe concerning medical science/christmas/nonresistance/debt...ect. I appreciate your desire to make yourself clear, but we don't/shouldn't have to constantly justify ourselves to make a point. I knew you trusted The Lord in these matters, as do I, but I also respect and love those whom I know have chosen to follow a different path. Though I will remind, encourage, exhort, and warn them of what God's Word says concerning whatever the issue/topic that's being discussed.
I do believe that for non-believers medical science serves a purpose, I just don't believe it's God's way for His children.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,â€
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8278 is a reply to message #8277] |
Tue, 20 September 2011 15:21 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| james wrote on Tue, 20 September 2011 07:56 |
| moulder wrote on Tue, 20 September 2011 01:06 |
We tend to be a suspicious bunch always hedging our agreements until we can be assured that the person we are agreeing with is totally pure--doctrinally speaking, but surely we are mature enough to listen to valid points even if they are coming from someone who 'may' hold to a viewpoint that 'may' be different from the 'official' stance.
|
There is that, but truth be told, I've known from the get go that GWB(Gillyann) was involved in medical science and I believe I've treated her with respect even though I didn't agree with everything she said. I am of the 'opinion' that we get along well considering the 'differences' of interpretation of grey areas/liberty that's represented here. You and I don't agree on everything, but I still respect your opinions(or should I say, the right to have a different opinion). btw: I hope it's not me that causes you to feel the need to state what you believe concerning medical science/christmas/nonresistance/debt...ect. I appreciate your desire to make yourself clear, but we don't/shouldn't have to constantly justify ourselves to make a point. I knew you trusted The Lord in these matters, as do I, but I also respect and love those whom I know have chosen to follow a different path. Though I will remind, encourage, exhort, and warn them of what God's Word says concerning whatever the issue/topic that's being discussed.
I do believe that for non-believers medical science serves a purpose, I just don't believe it's God's way for His children.
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Actually I had someone else in mind when I wrote that and as I look back on it I see that it was a more a reflection on my own feelings than any objective actualities that have been presented here. I hate that old walking-on-eggshells feeling that rises up when I'm speaking to my brothers and sisters from FA... that automatic 'on guard' shield that keeps me from opening up is probably not as big a deal as I've imagined it to be. In other words, just because I've had a problem in that area doesn't mean it is a universal problem with others and even if it is it is not something that I should be concerned with, right? (Get the log out of your own eye Willie boy!).
Now before I turn this whole discussion into an introspective free-for-all let me get off of the couch, quit crying, and say that I luv you all very much and I apologize for taking cheap shots at the peanut gallery!
This forum would be nothing without you James and as I think about it each one of the regular participants adds such a unique perspective that it would be difficult to be inspired (as I am regularly by you all!) if we lost anyone. I don't know about you, but I've missed the 'sage' advice of one of the members very much.
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8279 is a reply to message #8269] |
Tue, 20 September 2011 15:59 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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Ron:
| Quote: |
Is it the anointing we are lacking, or is it a lack of our Faith to step out
when a situation arises and say:
Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee:
In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Acts 3:6 (KJV)
We have all been given a measure of Faith, are we willing to use it, or are we
dumping the responsibility of Believing totally on the ones we are praying for ?
|
I've gone back and forth on this over the years. It's almost like the Calvin/Arminius debate... how much of the responsibility do we bear for the lack of anointing verses just how much of the anointing has the Holy Spirit delegated? It's a tough question.
It's like the old saying "I would, if you would" kind of thing at work. Are we the problem or is it the Holy Spirits' fault? (I know we'd never blame the Holy Spirit directly, but sometimes we act as if it is His fault by our attitudes!)
I lean toward it being our lack of consecration and faith right now, but I may be swayed tomorrow! (How's that for being decisive? <grin>)
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Tue, 20 September 2011 16:00]
I want to believe!
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