| Church Government [message #11012] |
Tue, 22 April 2014 15:17  |
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And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
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| Re: Church Government [message #11041 is a reply to message #11012] |
Fri, 25 April 2014 19:27  |
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I like to think of Church authority like the chain of command in the Air Force. Generals/Apostles, Colonels/Prophets (the emblem is the Eagle {seer}), Majors/Evangelists (dealing with large numbers), Captians/Pastors (often in position of AF commander), Luetenants/Teachers. All these and the deacons will do well to serve faithfully in what they do. Im not saying this is a perfect analogy - yet many have to realize that people in chain of authority and others cannot just do what they want without accountabliity in GOD'S church. God set the leadership in HIS church and that's the way it is.
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| Re: Church Government [message #11045 is a reply to message #11041] |
Fri, 25 April 2014 22:20 |
 JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Accountability , this term has been used since the 1970's .
It means to be in bondage to those who lord it over the flock and set themselves
In authority over those who lack knowledge of Gods Word !
Ron
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| Re: Church Government [message #11049 is a reply to message #11045] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 15:04 |
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I would think that most the leadership responsibilities would be among others who call themselves "ministers", who are departing from the true way. The restoration of the full 5-fold ministry is for blessing in the way of the God, its not a negative thing.
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| Re: Church Government [message #11050 is a reply to message #11046] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 15:12 |
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Proof texts?? I would have to reference pretty much, what...half of PAUL's writings to explain the clear biblical principle that Apostles are high leadership in the church. Shall I come with a rod? Let everyone that loves not the Lord Jesus be accursed. Turn such a one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, etc. etc. etc. It's clear biblical teaching - If you notice the meeting in Acts 15 - certain elders meet for questions of doctrinal clarity and sent out a finding. If someone doesn't know from reading the bible, that Apostles are head among the elders...what can I say? They and prophets are foundational leaders in the church.
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| Re: Church Government [message #11051 is a reply to message #11046] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 15:18 |
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PS - Do you think that this means chronologically?
1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Thanks
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| Re: Church Government [message #11053 is a reply to message #11051] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 15:33 |
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william
Messages: 1462
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 10:18 |
PS - Do you think that this means chronologically?
1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Thanks
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So let me see if I understand... you are saying that apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists (presumably), those with the gift of healings, and finally those with the gift of helps, these all are over the "governments" of the church?
Is this the "chain of command" you describe?
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Church Government [message #11054 is a reply to message #11041] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 15:35 |
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Since Paul's example of "appointing elders in every place" is clear. Isn't it common sense that He had authority in such matters? I don't think any true minister of God would have problem with mutual respect among ministries and especially in regards to Prophets and Apostles? But hey, I appreciate the diligence to follow up on claims of Apostleship, just use the whole context of the New Testament (or don't, it's a free world). Just know if you don't take the whole of scripture, you will be setting yourselves for trouble. (PS - I use the word "you" in general ei everybody, sense.) Thanks. PS - I knew this post was going to start trouble. True Apostles and Prophets come with HIS authority to help the saints and TO SPEAK AGAINST ALL THE ERRORS OF THE END TIMES
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| Re: Church Government [message #11055 is a reply to message #11052] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 15:55 |
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I said "I like to think of it that way". To me it's a clear generalization that I would think would be known among bible knowers that Apostles are chief authority in the church??? I gave about three examples of Pauls authority and Peters and Pauls life in the scripture is evidence of their authority. ex They were together on Solomons porch and no man durst join himself to them. Its the whole context throughout all the scripture that Apostles are special leaders for special high purposes including oversight of other leadership. ei appointing elders in every city...
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| Re: Church Government [message #11056 is a reply to message #11054] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 15:56 |
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william
Messages: 1462
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 10:35 |
Since Paul's example of "appointing elders in every place" is clear. Isn't it common sense that He had authority in such matters? I don't think any true minister of God would have problem with mutual respect among ministries and especially in regards to Prophets and Apostles? But hey, I appreciate the diligence to follow up on claims of Apostleship, just use the whole context of the New Testament (or don't, it's a free world). Just know if you don't take the whole of scripture, you will be setting yourselves for trouble. (PS - I use the word "you" in general ei everybody, sense.) Thanks. PS - I knew this post was going to start trouble. True Apostles and Prophets come with HIS authority to help the saints and TO SPEAK AGAINST ALL THE ERRORS OF THE END TIMES
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Why did Paul go to the church at Jerusalem and why was James the one giving the recommendations? I mean if Paul has the authority over the gentiles then why didn't he just settle the issue?
btw, all of us here are "true" ministers of God, all of us here take the "whole" bible as our authority, which is why we are seeking to understand what you mean by "chain of command". It's a concept you brought up, and since you brought it up I'm asking for a "biblical" example --common sense may suffice in some situations, but not in the particular concept you brought up.
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Church Government [message #11057 is a reply to message #11052] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 16:02 |
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I wouldn't always use the word "answer to" but better idea of carrying authority from God, if people dishonor Gods authorities - God Himself can deal with the matter (or maybe they'll get turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh?). Mostly the Apostles are the chief elders. I wouldn't want to be a false bible teacher and disregard the warnings of an Apostle. Thanks.
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| Re: Church Government [message #11059 is a reply to message #11057] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 16:11 |
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I am not implying that anyone here in particular is false. Just generalization. I do disagree that Eph2:20 ended with the early church or that Acts 15 isn't a clear example of levels of authority. Once again - may I ask William - Is it your view that Apostles are not the Chief elders in the church?? Thanks. All love and truth  .
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| Re: Church Government [message #11061 is a reply to message #11058] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 16:16 |
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It is my personal opinion as why I said "I like to think of ", but I believe it is based on fact and can be helpful to understand that God is calling people to come with authority that God Himself will verify. Do you think a teacher in a church can stand up and say, Pastor - you sit down today - I'm going to preach. There are understood levels of authority in the church. Its shown throughout the overall context of the new testament and experience.
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| Re: Church Government [message #11062 is a reply to message #11061] |
Sat, 26 April 2014 16:25 |
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I also said "it's not a perfect analogy", but there are so many religious who think they can just say and do what they want with out any oversight that can bring judgment. If people are not following scripture- Apostles, prophets, etc.- I may call them out and then we will continue to see if God responds.
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| Re: Church Government [message #11075 is a reply to message #11069] |
Sun, 27 April 2014 15:25 |
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william
Messages: 1462
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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Okay, it's your call as to whether or not you want to answer the one question I asked, but if you aren't going to do it, then I will.
Here is what you said:
| Apostle wrote on Fri, 25 April 2014 14:27 |
I like to think of Church authority like the chain of command in the Air Force. Generals/Apostles, Colonels/Prophets (the emblem is the Eagle {seer}), Majors/Evangelists (dealing with large numbers), Captians/Pastors (often in position of AF commander), Luetenants/Teachers. All these and the deacons will do well to serve faithfully in what they do. Im not saying this is a perfect analogy - yet many have to realize that people in chain of authority and others cannot just do what they want without accountabliity in GOD'S church. God set the leadership in HIS church and that's the way it is.
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So I asked this question: | Quote: |
Can you give a biblical example that equates Church structure with the kind of hierarchy you are describing?
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Your answer should have been: "No, I can't."
You also point out to us:
| Quote: |
If you notice the meeting in Acts 15 - certain elders meet for questions of doctrinal clarity and sent out a finding.
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I don't consider myself an "elder" (I'm still a young puppy!) but I was seeking clarity, and since you said:
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"true apostles and prophets come with HIS authority to help the saints and TO SPEAK AGAINST ALL THE ERRORS OF THE END TIMES"
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...I figured that this meant that you might want to help clear up any erroneous ideas that we might have concerning the "chain of command" idea that you said dominates half of Paul's writings.
What I see in Paul's writings is that he indeed had authority, but not blanket authority--it was authority over the churches that he established. He says exactly this in this passage:
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But we will not boast of things without [our] measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. For we stretch not ourselves beyond [our measure], as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in [preaching] the gospel of Christ: Not boasting of things without [our] measure, [that is], of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, To preach the gospel in the [regions] beyond you, [and] not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand. 2Co 10:13 KJV
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One need only examine the differences between his letters to the Corinthians (his measure, or we could say, his sphere of authority --due to having established this church) and his letter to the Romans (which he did not establish). The differences are profound with respect to his authority.
If there are no examples of your claim of a "chain of authority", beginning with the apostles and ending with us regular christians, then the obvious question is: "Where does this idea originate?" This was the basis of my question. If you had answered that question by giving us only ONE biblical example of this "chain of authority" then I would necessarily be under obligation to re-examine my position and my understanding about the origins of this idea.
As it stands right now I'm under the assumption that this idea falls under the category of one of those "errors of the end time" that you yourself claim to be sent to correct. It looks like to me that this whole idea of a "chain of command/authority" is a man-made tradition that we are warned against in the very bible that we are called to follow.
Gary and Ron both gave good reasons for not accepting your idea without discrimination. Gary mentioned Mark 10:41 which is pretty clear concerning the attitude of those who might aspire to rule. Ron pointed out the dangerous implications of the concept when it is applied to those who lack knowledge of God's word.
Marilyn quoted a relevant passage that should give anyone pause before accepting an idea just because it comes from one who claims to be an apostle:
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I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: Rev 2:2 KJV
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If this idea is one that has its roots in human understanding and philosophy then Paul's words of warning is heightened in its applicability to us:
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Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2:8 KJV
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Again, it should go without saying, I believe in apostolic authority as it is presented in the bible, I think we all do, but this whole idea of a "chain of authority" beginning with the apostle and ending up with the regular christian with every link of the chain representing a specific level of authority over the end-link (but not the prior link) is the problem I'm having.
William
[Updated on: Sun, 27 April 2014 15:30]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Church Government [message #11080 is a reply to message #11077] |
Mon, 28 April 2014 14:28 |
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Mr. Christian cannot say to Mr. Deacon - Do not minister to that one, Mr. Deacon cant tell Mr. Teacher - don't teach on that, Mr. Teacher can't tell Mr. Pastor what to do at Sunday meeting, Mr. Pastor cant tell visiting community evangelist not to preach on that and on and on. Its a simple well understandable idea. Because those in authority in these positions have the higher level of authority to make those calls then the others. I don't like to labor such a matter. Ask a 10 year old if they can do want they want "in church" without regard to the proper authorities. Its the same I have been saying all along.
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| Re: Church Government [message #11081 is a reply to message #11077] |
Mon, 28 April 2014 14:34 |
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Part of what I am called to do, is make simple matters clear. I don't belabor with "proof texts", issues that are clearly within the overall context and example of scripture and experience. I don't give proof texts that I will get wet in rain, but it's still true. PS - Some of you may want to be a little more friendly and a little less adversarial - Believe that.
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| Re: Church Government [message #11084 is a reply to message #11083] |
Mon, 28 April 2014 15:29 |
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Another complexity. Yes, every church pretty well says "they follow the bible", I'm referring to churches that would be approved of by God like those in Revelations 2,3. That real bible practicers know that at least in fundamentals are sound (which eliminates about 99.999 % of all churches). Just the denominational label and refusal to follow baptism in Jesus name - eliminates most from "biblical churches" classification. Perhaps I will right more about foundational doctrines in fulfilling the plan of God. and write more . and It's going to be simple - yet profound. Which is pretty much the way God works with me. Three first general things and then the specific plan for each person which also connects with Church and deliverance. (which is what I had rather been writing on - other than ministers having authority), But it's OK. Got to learn about this environment some.
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| Re: Church Government [message #11085 is a reply to message #11084] |
Mon, 28 April 2014 15:36 |
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PS - If anyone wants to tear apart every perceived perception of what I write. Please don't. Thanks. It's not best for edifying. Stick with the general understood truth and lets DO GOD'S PLAN.
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