Home » Theological Doctrine » Discipling » Testimony of Discipling
| Testimony of Discipling [message #10438] |
Fri, 29 November 2013 06:22  |
 Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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I thought I would start this topic by sharing some of my journey with the Lord in discipling others. Back in the `70`s & `80`s we would invite people to a meeting & many came to know the Lord. Then they would be taken through a booklet something like, `First steps for Christians,` or taken to Bible classes. It was all centred in the organisation & rather regimented.
Over time as I began reading different books on the Christian walk, - two in particular had a profound impact on me in relation to discipling - `Chasing the Dragon, by Jackie Pulinger,` & `The lost Art of Discipling.` I met Jackie while I was in Bible College in NZ & she was speaking at a meeting. In her book she wrote about how the Lord led her to the walled city in Hong Kong & how over many years God showed her how to care & reach the lost there. One person effecting so many.
Then in the `Lost Art of Discipling,` the writer laid out the process of helping a convert through the various stages of Christian growth till they reached maturity & then be able to help others. The key I realised was one person by the Holy Spirit effecting just a few, but (& this is where organisations miss it) keeping with these few till they are mature & helping them to reach out to others. It takes persistence & willingness to change & grow in yourself by the Holy Spirit, to have children, physical & spiritual.
Thus in the `90`s I was ready to launch out in the Lord, trusting that He would bring the different ones He chose for me to nurture, care, encourage & teach. And God did send people, person by person & each of these initial ones are now peers with me & each have their relationships that they are nurturing from people who receive of them.
I could tell you each of these people & who they are reaching, & even some of their disciples who are now reaching out to others. It is not organised by man, but initiated by the Holy Spirit. It is not through formal meetings but in everyday life. I don`t control this but look on in joy at those initial ones, who now understand how God works in people`s lives & are there working alongside their few, going deep & not trying to personally save the world.
Going deep means, time, energy, waiting of God for discernment, words of wisdom, encouragement; it is going out everyday with Godly intent that we carry His life, His words, thoughts & actions of life to others. The focus is expecting to give of our precious treasure within, a bit at a time. The first ones tell me it is such a relief not to have to `save someone,` (as if any of us can save ourselves, let alone someone else) & the pressure of having to give a `gospel message,` all the time, has been lifted. Working with the Holy Spirit in people`s daily lives is being that servant & seeing what the other person needs, not trying to force feed the whole (gospel) answer.
That is just a summary – the `How to,` is a large learning curve, especially for me as I`m an organiser. But it`s not for me to organise the Holy Spirit – huge lessons!!!!!!
From even the little I have read of your lives I do believe you are discipling others, but you just have the wrong definition & expectation of it. I`m sure as God opens up this great topic we`ll begin to see clearer of what He is doing, not only in our own lives but also in the lives of others around us.
Blessings Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10441 is a reply to message #10438] |
Fri, 29 November 2013 17:58  |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Gary,
| Quote: |
The concept of getting and training disciples was hardly or rarely mentioned.
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As I recall how we were . . . getting disciples of our own was actually taught against.
We thought in terms that new converts immediately became disciples of Jesus , never of another human being.
We expected that God Himself was actively in their lives discipling them daily in the Word and in the school of trials.
{{{ For Marylin's benefit -> what we called the school of trials was our belief that God would tailor-make tests (trials)
in our lives wherein He would allow the devil to attack us in some way. As we faithfully overcame ( there is that
"overcome in all things" idea ) the test/trial we would learn spiritual lessons - maybe patience, stronger faith, the need
for more holiness, etc. We believed that God was discipling each of us Himself, One on one tutoring, the Holy Spirit
within each of us - through the use of these trials/tests }}}
Then we expected that the 5-fold gift of teaching would instruct us in the Scriptures. New converts would
listen to many, many audio tapes as they learned the various topics.
=============================================
Btw: John the Baptist was before Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came to indwell the believers.
Believers now should have the Holy Spirit within which enables the school of trials
- see John 14:26 <- this was future tense to John the Baptist
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 333 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10442 is a reply to message #10441] |
Fri, 29 November 2013 20:31 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Jman,
You have raised some very good points & much truth. I will now look into this & give more thoughts on the subject.
Thank you, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10443 is a reply to message #10438] |
Fri, 29 November 2013 21:28 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Marylin,
Naturally you have me dwelling on this.
How about the following ideas:
Can you frame your customs so that you avoid these downfalls-
1) If the disciples are expected to give money to their mentors then
that looks terrible, and the gospel is being used for gain - mucho bad
2) If the mentors ever usurp the roll of God in the disciple's life then that is bad.
Examples:
- must get mentor approval to be guided by God to do something
- must get mentor approval w/r what God showed them
- must get mentor approval to adopt a new conviction - silly example: to not say "Gosh darnit" anymore
- must check in with mentor at a certain interval
- must have a mentor to be saved or be right with God or right with the church
3) If being a disciple is not optional then that is bad. Example: if
someone opts out of the disciple network are they punished? -
punished by God or the other believers, rejected by God or the
other believers, less in fellowship with Christ? or peer
pressured that they must be in the disciple network?
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If you have a layered system of believers it is certainly EXTRA-Biblical but
that does not mean it is UN-Biblical.
Say we all developed a "memory club" wherein we all memorize a list of
verses and then take turns calling each other up and reciting the verses.
It is fun to do something with others, we are learning verses, and we are
motivated. Win. Win. Win. This is EXTRA-Biblical but not UN-Biblical so
why not? Enjoy. We have freedom in Christ.
Same for a layered system of Biblical fellowshipping. As long as UN-Biblical
things are not happening then why not? We are free in Christ.
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 333 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10444 is a reply to message #10443] |
Fri, 29 November 2013 21:48 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Wow Jman,
I would run a mile or even further from those expectations. So glad you brought them up though, as the table needs to be cleared from all that rubbish that people try & put on other people.
How I avoid those pitfalls is knowing that I can`t manage someone else`s life (let alone mine without the Lord). I don`t take people through a set of lessons, or have to s. It is a relationship of mutual respect with me as only a component in God`s hand to encourage, nurture & help the person hear the Lord for themselves. Probably a `sounding board,` is a good description also, someone who you have built trust with & they help you see other aspects of a situation but always leave the decisions for that person to make themselves. Growth only comes through the Holy Spirit as you said & we are but helps to affirm what is of God from the word.
I am looking into how it was done by Paul.
Blessings, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10445 is a reply to message #10438] |
Fri, 29 November 2013 23:05 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Marylin,
Glad to hear it.
What I mentioned were the issues w/r the Shepherdship
groups here in the USA - others who also had a layered network in place.
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 333 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
|
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10447 is a reply to message #10441] |
Sat, 30 November 2013 11:28 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| wishing34 wrote on Fri, 29 November 2013 11:58 |
Gary,
| Quote: |
The concept of getting and training disciples was hardly or rarely mentioned.
|
As I recall how we were . . . getting disciples of our own was actually taught against.
We thought in terms that new converts immediately became disciples of Jesus , never of another human being.
We expected that God Himself was actively in their lives discipling them daily in the Word and in the school of trials.
|
Jman,
Thanks for sharing this. I will try to answer each one, a paragraph at a time. Very good overview of how it was taught, I agree we were not taught to personally disciple people.
If you think about it though, I always thought people came in to the movement because of all our excitement of what Jesus was doing. It's hard to tell someone what really happened in the beginning. The Spirit of God was so strong in the meetings it was like Jesus was walking the aisles. I would leave the meetings and for days on end there would be a strong anointing of the Spirit on me from the worship and hearing the Word. There was a great hunger in all of us. We were being discipled by HEF and to this day it guides our thinking in many areas. This man spent a lot of time in prayer, fasting, and study of the Word. He was not like the Pastors we see out there today. He was a good example in all of this. Jesus did say to us to go make disciples, I had just not given it much thought as I followed the example the Lord set before us, for that time in our lives. But now I am thinking the Lord is moving us all one step at a time into His greater anointing.
This concept (discipling) does sound interesting. I have wondered (before this topic even came up), if you minister to someone should we not try to follow up and if someone comes to the Lord do we just leave them to go to some church and become part of the system. Just some things here that I have considered. I can see a benefit in continuing to minister or disciple people towards the Lord. Like Jesus said most are like sheep having no shepherd. Also being led in the Spirit in this is important and I agree with what you and Marilyn discussed: that, money or some form of submission to "us" is not of the Lord. We have to be very sensitive to the Spirit in this.
| Quote: |
{{{ For Marylin's benefit -> what we called the school of trials was our belief that God would tailor-make tests (trials)
in our lives wherein He would allow the devil to attack us in some way. As we faithfully overcame ( there is that
"overcome in all things" idea ) the test/trial we would learn spiritual lessons - maybe patience, stronger faith, the need
for more holiness, etc. We believed that God was discipling each of us Himself, One on one tutoring, the Holy Spirit
within each of us - through the use of these trials/tests }}}
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This is very good assessment, While we in the West do not suffer persecution, like in China or some muslim country, trials become the pathway into the Kingdom for us here. We can run and try to get out of the trials or we can accept them as from the Lord and yield to the Holy Spirit to do the work in us. I don't think that when we try to take care of ourselves and do our part that we are running, but its when someone tries to get out of the trial and does not run to the Lord. Hope that's understandable.
I have found when everything is going great in life it becomes easier to slack off when spending time with the Lord. But when the trials come our way, we should see the need to be walking closer to the Lord. This is why Paul mentions that he glories in trials and tribulations. This is clearly taught in the Bible, trials and yielding to the Spirit in them.
| Quote: |
Then we expected that the 5-fold gift of teaching would instruct us in the Scriptures. New converts would
listen to many, many audio tapes as they learned the various topics.
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This may of been the flaw in our armor. All alone listening to tapes, and accepting things without being able to ask questions. Jesus disciples could talk with him as well as John the Baptist who could talk with his disciples concerning the things of the Kingdom. (Just thinking out loud here at least considering discipling others would be a benefit to some).
Many of the ministers who set under Freeman started to look for and to find new things that we needed to give up as proof of our obedience to the Lord. There was no way HEF could monitor what all these guys were telling us and at times I thought it became a competition on who could find the latest or newest thing that we had not thought of. Somethings they said were very logical and even HEF followed what some of them said in his pulpit.
It wasn't money or submission to them but what could we give up for the Lord which led to legalism and some peer pressure. We could all make up a ten page list. But we live and learn and thankfully the Lord has been merciful in this learning process.
If you take the literal meaning of disciple or discipling the word means:
| Quote: |
dis·ci·ple
[dih-sahy-puhl] Show IPA noun, verb, dis·ci·pled, dis·ci·pling.
noun
1.
Religion .
a.
one of the 12 personal followers of Christ.
b.
one of the 70 followers sent forth by Christ. Luke 10:1.
c.
any other professed follower of Christ in His lifetime.
2.
any follower of Christ.
3.
( initial capital letter ) a member of the Disciples of Christ.
4.
a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower: a disciple of Freud.
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As number four suggests, a person who adheres to the doctrines of another. Ultimately we only submit to Christ and His doctrines. So even if we have disciples, "everything is to be centered around Christ and His teachings".
I don't know Marilyn maybe the word mentoring would be better, but if your use to saying disciples I see if its understood correctly then that's fine. It just sounds strange to our way of thinking over here.
Just some thoughts on this.
=============================================
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Btw: John the Baptist was before Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came to indwell the believers.
Believers now should have the Holy Spirit within which enables the school of trials
- see John 14:26 <- this was future tense to John the Baptist
Jman
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Jman for a long time I would read the NT and then would go to the OT, this was my routine for daily Bible reading. Now for a time I have just been reading the Gospels. I wanted to see what did Jesus really say, and what were His disciples reaction. I have been very blessed in doing this for now, as things I never seen before leap out of the scriptures. I have been reading them over and over at least for now till the Lord moves me on.
I ran across an interesting statement a few days ago concerning what you shared above in this statement. Here in Luke I will share this portion of scripture as I am not trying to expound on all the things that Gabriel the angel is telling Zacharias. This statement concerning John:
He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
I don't have all understanding of it but it clearly says that John would be "filled" with the Holy Spirit from even the time he was in his mothers womb.
Both parents were considered "righteous" before God:
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well advanced in years.
Anyway I just thought this was very interesting that John was filled with the Spirit before Pentecost. John was a vessel prepared by God and prophesied by Isaiah, that he would one day, go before and prepare the way of the Lord.
Again I have been very blessed by just reading the Gospels and would encourage anyone here to try it for a season.
Lord Bless,
Gary
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10448 is a reply to message #10438] |
Sat, 30 November 2013 14:00 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Gary,
I have been trying to think of our old customs.
I agree with you that "mentoring" would be our word and that the word "discipling"
sends off alarm bells for us. Would be different of course for the Aussies.
We used to share concepts with each other all the time. A more mature
brother would be asked many questions - say as we worked on a job or
helped someone move. Who would not have loved to have minister X, Y or Z
invite them over every Saturday night for a meal and talk about the Scriptures.
Only a few who were the minister's close friends enjoyed such a perk.
I once has a brother who was on the periphery of our group come over several
times to my house for the express purpose of explaining our beliefs to him. It
was fun.
But it was not organized. We would have said we would do such things "as
the Holy Spirit leads," but then it did not happen very often.
----------------------
Possibly some sort of one on one fellowshipping might be organized, especially
for new people. This did happen spontaneously back in the day - someone would
take the new brother "under their wing" so to speak. Possibly a brother or two
might be led to always offer to meet with and help the new people - especially
this would fall under the pastor's "job description."
One issue that will come up is that the more organized the mentoring sessions
are then the more it feels like a woman is teaching the Word and I TIm 2:12
must apply at some point - once it moves from spontaneous conversations to
prepared teaching of a set of organized doctrinal concepts.
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Gary, even now we are drawing from our past experience and thinking in terms of
teaching doctrinal things to others. When Marylin shares her customs
it sounds like it is more about being a sounding board and helping each
other take perspective, being a good friend.
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 334 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10449 is a reply to message #10447] |
Sat, 30 November 2013 14:52 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| Gary wrote on Sat, 30 November 2013 05:28 |
This concept (discipling) does sound interesting. I have wondered (before this topic even came up), if you minister to someone should we not try to follow up and if someone comes to the Lord do we just leave them to go to some church and become part of the system. Just some things here that I have considered. I can see a benefit in continuing to minister or disciple people towards the Lord. Like Jesus said most are like sheep having no shepherd.
I don't know Marilyn maybe the word mentoring would be better, but if your use to saying disciples I see if its understood correctly then that's fine. It just sounds strange to our way of thinking over here.
Just some thoughts on this.
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Gary I don't know if everyone 'here' thinks discipling others is "strange to our way of thinking", I don't. I believe William and Ron have beem discipling others for years through teaching in small settings. Others have done some one on one ministering to those newer in the Faith. Yes, it is popular today to use the word "mentor", yet the term basicly means the same when being used by Christians. The church I've attended this year has a huge focus on disciple-making and missions. They even have a "Disciple Making Institute" were people are taught how to present The Gospel and then follow up with actions of love, both by feeding people's physical needs as well as spiritual. I'm not defending or promoting 'everything Baptist', but just sharing to say that disciple making isn't a foreign term to American Christians.
Actually as I began visiting churches last spring one of the burdens I came away with was the need for disciple making and focus in many large churches. One church that had a membership of nearly 20,000 scattered over several 'campuses' had people joining at a very rapid rate, yet I didn't see any effective tools in place to teaching the new converts anything deeper than John 3:16 and confession of faith in Christ.(that may be a bit of a streach, but I think you understand what I mean...many shallow baby Christians than need feeding solid food<discipled> by older believers.) But in this one Baptist church (largest SBC in Alabama, The Church at Brook Hills) there is a focus on discipling young converts, building them up into sound, grounded, mature followers of Jesus.(again, I'm not promoting Baptist dictrine and beliefs, just sharing than maybe we don't know of this going on because we aren't involved in any local assemblies or just haven't been to churches that do believe in disciple making.)
Again, not being contankerous, just letting Marilyn know that everyone's experience in Christianity post FA isn't the same. Is Jesus' commandment to go forth and make disciples of all nations being followed by Christians as He expected? Just as with everything else He taught and commanded, some do and some don't. May God grant us mercy and the grace to become doers of The Word and not just hears only, deceiving our own selves.
I'm speaking to and refering to my OWN self...while sitting around pointing out the flaws of 'the system'(and there certainly are flaws) meanwhile people are spiritually starving for lack of sound teaching....teaching that each of us has had the opportunity to have had. The question I've had the last few years to myself is this, what am I doing with what I've been given? The Living Water was given to be shared, to give live to those dying of thirst, not hoarded...May IT flow as a mighty stream, out of us...
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10454 is a reply to message #10447] |
Sat, 30 November 2013 19:41 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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What a great discussion is going on. It is good to hear what the Holy Spirit is stirring us up to remember, appreciate, & then mediate on, letting Him guide us in the next step as Gary said.
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`But now I am thinking the Lord is moving us all one step at a time into His greater anointing.`
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I remember the `70`s & `80`s also as a special time of God moving in my life & those around me. The ministers were sincere & sought the Lord, the people were excited & hungry, going to many meetings & sharing with each other. However God has been maturing us & now it seems He would have us assess why it is important to mentor others. Gary wrote an interesting comment
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(Just thinking out loud here at least considering discipling others would be a benefit to some).
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`All alone listening to tapes, and accepting things without being able to ask questions. Jesus disciples could talk with him...`
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I do personally like & use the word `mentor,` as it is in our contemporary language, however I used the word `disciple,` when I started talking about this topic so that we could relate it to God`s word.
Jman brought up an interesting point about 1. teaching doctrinal things & 2. A sounding board for making decisions in life. Actually I do both of those with others depending on their receptiveness & desires to learn.
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`Gary, even now we are drawing from our past experience and thinking in terms of teaching doctrinal things to others. When Marylin shares her customs it sounds like it is more about being a sounding board and helping each other take perspective, being a good friend.`
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I personally don`t say `I am going to my disciples today.` I would say I`m going to a friends place. When I say it to you it is for the understanding that I`m not just chatting & gossiping but going with the intent, prayerfully to encourage, share & build up my friend in the Lord & to let the Holy Spirit speak through her to me also. Gary said concerning what was done by Paul discipling others...
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`But it is very limited in showing what actually took place.`
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This is why God would have us relate & share with each other & to learn from each other`s experiences, thus even mentoring each other. Also it therefore can`t be a formulae that everyone follows & then out pops a mature disciple. As we all know it is a long hard process in the Lord & to have some one who cares & understands walk some of the way with you, that is so precious.
And thus what James has said also shows the stirrings of the Lord.
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`The question I've had the last few years to myself is this, what am I doing with what I've been given? The Living Water was given to be shared, to give live to those dying of thirst, not hoarded...May IT flow as a mighty stream, out of us...`
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I believe the Lord will lead our discussion into the `why`s` & `how`s,` as He prepares our hearts to launch out with Him.
Blessings,
[Updated on: Sat, 30 November 2013 19:48]
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10458 is a reply to message #10457] |
Mon, 02 December 2013 05:31 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Gary & Jman,
This is an interesting thought -
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`One issue that will come up is that the more organized the mentoring sessions are then the more it feels like a woman is teaching the Word and I TIm 2:12...
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When the Apostle Paul was speaking to Timothy & saying that women were `to remain quiet,` he was speaking of the formal meeting of that time, the Jewish synagogue. It was there that the men & women sat on different sides of the building & many women were apt to call out to their husbands on the other side.
Now just reading that scripture we could think, women must remain silent in our meetings.
However as we read more of God`s word on the topic we see how the early believers operated in their meetings, in their houses. Paul certainly does not forbid women to speak but actually encourages them to speak out in full participation, but in mutual subjection to one another.
`As those who have been chosen of God......let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching & admonishing one another....`(Col. 3: 12 & 16)
`if...all speak in tongues,....if all prophesy,....when you assemble each one has a Psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation.....` (1 Cor. 14: 23 - 26)
Some interesting thoughts. Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10459 is a reply to message #10458] |
Mon, 02 December 2013 10:30 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Quote: |
When the Apostle Paul was speaking to Timothy & saying that women were `to remain quiet,` he was speaking of the formal meeting of that time, the Jewish synagogue. It was there that the men & women sat on different sides of the building & many women were apt to call out to their husbands on the other side.
Now just reading that scripture we could think, women must remain silent in our meetings.
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Hi Marilyn,
I just wanted to share that the women in our meetings did have a voice. They prophesied, functioned in all the gifts, shared testimonies, and we had some who were gifted singers.
In fact I have not been in a church in America where any women were silent.
1 Timothy 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
In our meetings the five fold ministry gift of Teacher means something different then the average church out there. Most think this is a person who comes in and teaches the Bible like a school teacher would teach Math or English in school.
Someone who may have the "gift" of Teaching like in Ephesians 4:11, has a special anointing from God to expound the scriptures and has revelation and understanding that does not come from the human mind. Its a gift that only God can give.
Anyone can quote scriptures and teach in a human capacity but without this "gift" they do not have a deeper understanding of the Word of God. I'm sharing this so you will understand what we mean when we speak of this office.
I mentioned this discussion (women teaching men)on Andrews board to my wife the other day (remember it got kind of heated), some of the gals tried to tear into Andrew a minister of God over this subject. Anyway my wife agrees with this scripture that women should not have authority over men nor should they teach men.
Here on a public forum everyone has liberty to share their thoughts and in your situation your telling us what the Lord showed your Grandpa 30 years ago. It has been interesting and I would like to see the whole picture of what he thought on the end times.
But concerning women teaching or having authority over men, I believe like the Bible says that the woman was first deceived, (Eve), and this implies to me that women can be easily deceived because of the way they are made, influenced by their emotions.
To be subject to male authority is the way the Lord designed things and why would women consider this as wrong? We are all told to be slaves and servants so I would think a woman would accept what the scriptures say on this subject. You cannot find any reference in the NT where women were going around functioning in the five fold ministry, except some are mentioned as prophetesses but they were not teaching and none of their prophecies are even recorded. The Apostles wives are never mentioned traveling with them out ministering, nor at home teaching all the other disciples. Not like we see today in these end times.
The scriptures say women ministered to Jesus but this does not mean they were giving Him scriptures or teaching Him. Its ministering in a different capacity.
That's just my thoughts on this here discussion and is only a partial view without expounding on this whole subject, I cannot speak for everyone here.
Gary
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10462 is a reply to message #10438] |
Mon, 02 December 2013 15:11 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Marylin,
you said:
| Quote: |
When the Apostle Paul was speaking to Timothy & saying that women were `to remain quiet,` he
was speaking of the formal meeting of that time, the Jewish synagogue.
|
I believe you need to re-think this.
For you to apply I Tim 2:12 to the Jewish synagogue is really off base.
The entire epistle of I Timothy is instruction to Timothy as relates to the church
not the synagogue.
Paul was in no position to allow or disallow things in the Jewish synagogue
meetings - the Jews hated Paul.
Timothy was never even a practicing Jew (Jewish mother but
never circumcised ). No one would expect Timothy to be able
to implement Paul's instructions in the Jewish synagogue.
To apply I Tim 2:12 to the synagogue is to lift the application of this
one verse out of the entire epistle make it stand in isolation.
<<< Marylin, please question the quality of the source if , by chance,
you found this in someone else's teachings >>>
========================================================
| Quote: |
Now just reading that scripture we could think, women must remain silent in our meetings.
|
True, we could . . . until we include Paul's reference to them prophecying in Corinthians. Then we would
analyze "remain silent" in I Tim 2:12 and "learn in silence" of I Tim 2:11 to be mean silence
as contrasted to teaching.
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 336 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
|
|
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10463 is a reply to message #10438] |
Mon, 02 December 2013 15:20 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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|
Marylin,
you said:
| Quote: |
However as we read more of God`s word on the topic we see how the early believers operated in their meetings, in their houses. Paul certainly does not forbid women to speak but actually encourages them to speak out in full participation, but in mutual subjection to one another.
`As those who have been chosen of God......let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching & admonishing one another....`(Col. 3: 12 & 16)
|
Col 3:16 does not indicate that women would be teaching anything beyond what is included in Titus 2:4-5
This verse cannot be used to validate women teachers to the church.
| Quote: |
`if...all speak in tongues,....if all prophesy,....when you assemble each one has a Psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation.....` (1 Cor. 14: 23 - 26)
.
|
I assume you mean that each person ( specifically including females ) had a teaching.
This is I Cor 14:26
8 verses later in I Cor 14:34-35 Paul will call for the women to be silent and to ask/learn at home -
just the opposite of your proposed interpretation.
If Paul meant I Cor 14:26 to tell us that women are to give teachings in the assembly then he
contradicts himself within 8 verses.
We must realize that no one qualifies every word as they speak/write. In I Cor 14:26 Paul is talking about
disorderly (too much) participation in the meetings, so he does not stop and qualify his phrase
"each has a teaching" to exclude females since he will deal with that topic 8 verses later.
To pull the "each has a teaching" phrase out of I Cor 14:26 in order to make a doctrine allowing women teachers
is to violate the principle "Use Scripture to interpret Scripture."
| Quote: |
actually encourages them to speak out in full participation
|
This is directly, directly opposite to I Cor 14:34-35
-----------------------------
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 336 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
[Updated on: Mon, 02 December 2013 15:27]
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10465 is a reply to message #10463] |
Mon, 02 December 2013 19:46 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Jman,
I was concentrating on the `to remain quiet,` & your scripture also brings that out, `Let the women keep silent in the churches.` (1 Cor. 14: 34) Now as Gary has just said above,
| Quote: |
`I just wanted to share that the women in our meetings did have a voice. They prophesied, functioned in all the gifts, shared testimonies, and we had some who were gifted singers. In fact I have not been in a church in America where any women were silent.
|
That is the point I was making by the `tongues, prophesying etc that women are not kept silent or expected to do so. So if we are not interpreting that part of the sentence as meaning all the time & in every meeting, for women not to talk then the teaching aspect of those verses has a particular meaning & not just across the board.
The `Jewish synagogue,` thought, I had heard & it sounded feasible to me that Timothy would encourage Jewish Christians attending the synagogue to show proper behaviour there as required. But I wont labour that point. The 1 Cor. 14: 34 scripture about `women to keep silent,` shows the context- wife wanting to ask husband questions, & this should be done at home. It does not mean all women are to remain silent at all times in meetings.
I think we are agreeing here & Gary has explained it. It takes a while to try & understand each other, but I think we are coming to an understanding.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10466 is a reply to message #10459] |
Mon, 02 December 2013 19:55 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Gary,
Thank you for your detailed reply. I think as I said to Jman that we are coming to understand each other & a greater clarification on those scriptures. I agree with what you said as I was brought up with the 5 fold ministries.
| Quote: |
`In our meetings the five fold ministry gift of Teacher means something different then the average church out there. Most think this is a person who comes in and teaches the Bible like a school teacher would teach Math or English in school.
Someone who may have the "gift" of Teaching like in Ephesians 4:11, has a special anointing from God to expound the scriptures and has revelation and understanding that does not come from the human mind. Its a gift that only God can give.`
|
Thus the point we are coming to is the definition of teaching. So a woman sharing, teaching in the capacity like a school teacher, (as you said) is quite acceptable. May peace reign!
One other thought, I appreciate everyone listening to what I have been taught & will share more as we journey.
| Quote: |
`Here on a public forum everyone has liberty to share their thoughts and in your situation your telling us what the Lord showed your Grandpa 30 years ago. It has been interesting and I would like to see the whole picture of what he thought on the end times.`
|
Blessing, Marilyn.
[Updated on: Mon, 02 December 2013 20:23]
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10469 is a reply to message #10467] |
Tue, 03 December 2013 04:25 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Gary,
I believe we are having a good discussion & by the Holy Spirit He will lead us to clarify His word.
Now....is a woman just to teach on `flower arrangements?`  & hold all the knowledge & wisdom of the scriptures in her heart & not share, teach, instruct others?
It seems to me that you fellas are interpreting the two parts of 1 Tim. 2: 12 differently.
`women not to teach,` = women not to teach.
`women... to remain silent,` = women can speak.
We need to be consistent. I believe 1 Cor. 14: 34 shows us the context - wives trying to talk to their husbands about a subject at the wrong time, while 1 Tim. 2: 12 shows us the wrong attitude of some women - domineering, & trying to lord it over men.
The Apostle Paul does show that he believes it is the Lord`s will that women also teach.
`And so, as those who have been chosen of God, (men & women) holy & beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness & patience; bearing with one another, & forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against any one; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
And beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity, & let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; & be thankful.
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom, teaching & admonishing one another......` (Col. 3: 12 - 16)
So....how do you see the difference between sharing, witnessing, testifying, teaching? All are different modes of people learning from someone else but all have doctrinal content. It is just the delivery that is different, (in my understanding & experience).
I personally believe that women can teach as Paul says to the Colossians but they are not to be domineering or lording it over men. (Tim.) They are to have a submissive, learning attitude & heart, but be ever ready to share the hope they have within - in whatever form appropriate to the situation.
Hope we are coming closer to understanding each other on this topic. Marilyn.
P.S. Just asked Trevor if he believed that women can teach. He said, "yes." & asked, `Gary, have you learnt anything recently from your wife?`   
[Updated on: Tue, 03 December 2013 04:58]
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10470 is a reply to message #10438] |
Tue, 03 December 2013 06:11 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
|
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Hi Marylin,
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
-------
The " be in silence" part must be understood to allow for prophecying because of Corinthians.
The "suffer (allow} not a woman to teach" part must be understood to allow for teaching as in Titus 2:4
So neither part is absolute. Both are interpreted in light of other Scripture.
---------
But the "suffer (allow} not a woman to teach" part must also be understood to disallow teaching theology topics
because I TIm 2:14 gives the reason she would not teach - it links being a woman to easier deception.
Teach the younger women the things of home and marriage - Yes: Titus 2:4
Teach theology topics - No. I Tim 2:14
--------------------------------
Regarding Col 3:16, the women's part w/r teaching would be as in Titus 2:4 .
Col 3:16 does not say each person should teach theology topics.
=========================
We are close to "agree to disagree" time.
I do not think any minds are close to being changed.
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------
Regarding enforcement of I Tim 2:12 on this forum-
<< Marylin, I am nothing around here, and sometimes I'm even public enemy #1, so all I can say is my opinion
which carries no weight >>>
I percieve Marylin that you see yourself as a teacher and maybe even a 5-fold and that comes
through in the tone of your writings. But I don't care. Many people see themselves in places
that I do not see them.
I do not cut myself off from listening to people just because I think they are not what they say they
are - else I would listen to nothing ever. This is not a church, and as my sign off signature indicates,
I don't think things are working anyway, so I am not caring about enforcing I Tim 2:12
I enjoy you Marylin because I love the Word and theology, and you are interesting.
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 336 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
|
|
|
| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10471 is a reply to message #10470] |
Tue, 03 December 2013 07:17 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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|
Jman,
Thank you for your insightful comments. That is good feed back to me & I really appreciate it. Firstly I do appreciate your comments, questions & insightful study for that is how we discuss & listen to each other.
Now about me thinking I am one of the 5-fold ministries. Wow. Having been brought up with them I can easily discern I am certainly not. Having been a teacher as my profession that would come through plus I was taught by Apostles, Prophets, Teachers etc great revelation that was before it came across the Body. and I know there is still more to come that I have been taught. That is why I come over so strongly because most is the truth. Obviously I need to have others in the body confirm what I have been taught. That is why I so appreciate you people here for I tried on Andrew`s site & was not understood by many. Gary would understand. And even Andrew Strom himself & I had head on`s on some issues. But here we work through & give each other time to present our thoughts & adjust where necessary.
Glad to see you `adjusted,` your position, or perhaps clarified it but it still leaves me with - how can I share theology topics that I was taught by Apostles with others if I am gagged? I agree I am not to create new theology though.
You are also an important person in the Body for how would I be able to discuss these topics without you & Gary presenting your part. You are important Jman. Sometimes on Andrew`s site I feel like enemy #1. That is why I don`t comment there much as I just get jumped over & not received or discussed properly.
So let`s keep in there even though we don`t agree on everything yet. Bless you, Jman, God`s questioner. Marilyn.
P.S. Can you share a little of yourself - age? married? interests? etc. It helps when we are relating & I can see with your inquisitive & questioning mind that we have quite a journey to go.
[Updated on: Tue, 03 December 2013 08:33]
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10475 is a reply to message #10470] |
Tue, 03 December 2013 13:53 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
|
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| wishing34 wrote on Tue, 03 December 2013 00:11 |
Marylin, I am nothing around here, and sometimes I'm even public enemy #1, so all I can say is my opinion
which carries no weight >>>
Jman
|
Jman, First let me say you are appreciated and loved,(by me) and are equal in "nothingness" with us all(as we all are nothing in ourselves, it's about Jesus...which sounds noble and good, but we do seem to forget that at times.) I value your opinion, and am blessed by your insightfulness and thought provoking posts. You're not an enemy, even when we haven't agreed I respect you and admire your willingness to stand for what you believe. btw: Yours and Williams' sharing in the 'Divine Healing' threads helped me see blind-spots in my life and has been helpful, and for that I say, thank you!
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10476 is a reply to message #10438] |
Tue, 03 December 2013 14:30 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi Marylin,
You said - Can you share a little of yourself - age? married? interests? etc.
-----------------------------
I am turning 60 this month. There is a "Jwoman" - married 37 years. I tried to
get her to post on this forum but she won't do it.
Like most people on this board I was part of the Faith Assembly group of
churches in the 70's and 80's. Also like most I came away as a wounded soul
with "baggage." This shared Faith Assembly past is what most have in common
here. Like people wandering after a tornado, we might disagree with each other
mucho, but there is a bond because "that other guy/gal went through it too."
That could sound like Faith Assembly and related churches were bad. Just
the opposite is true. When God begins to do His real church it will look very much
like Faith Assembly.
As far as interests go I have recently taken perspective as to what I want out
of the last third of my life since I am hitting the 60 year milestone. I realized the only
thing that makes me happy is God's Word and theology. ( That is actually true,
but it sounds so pious and "sappy" that re-reading it makes even me want to puke ) So I
have begun a really serious Greek/Hebrew study as a hobby - nerd stuff is kind
of my forte.
I need to generate some retirement income, so I aspire to be a writer. Recently I have
adjusted my writing focus onto as yet undefined Greek/Heb related topics.
As far as the church . . . I used to teach and amassed, I'm afraid, some of that James 3:1
greater judgement. Back then I was criticized by the ever more carnal assembly as
a "Freemanite" ( late 80's era ).
Right now it would take a burning bush to get me back in a pulpit. ( no baggage apparent
in that statement eh?)
Am I or was I a 5-fold gift - No.
Marylin, there is a real possibility that you and I are kindred souls with mucho in common.
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 337 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
|
|
| |
| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10478 is a reply to message #10473] |
Tue, 03 December 2013 20:48 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Gary,
Yes I think we are near our `used by date,` on this topic. When I said `Gary would understand,` I meant that in general not specifically to the AJH conversation.
As regards our topic. Summing up I see women teaching, instructing, witnessing to others in various situations. I do not see the whole denominational, organisational structure as scriptural so that does not concern me. I have friends who go to these meetings & we still share together. We are all on a journey, as you know, & each have to do according to the `light,` understanding we have at the time.
Just a quick note of what I believe re the Temple. it was a structure given by God to show forth the Lord & His ministry. It was given to the nation of Israel who are ordered as you said. However the Body of Christ is of a different order, KingPriests,
where there is no `male or female,` differences. To be given a body like Christ`s, & where there is no marriage (in heaven) shows that it is a new body for a new order of beings.
And I feel I have opened a can of ........ Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10479 is a reply to message #10476] |
Tue, 03 December 2013 20:59 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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|
Jman,
Thank you for giving me a picture of yourself. It tends to make the person more real, if you know what I mean & that we can then relate better & not so anonymously. I can see I`ll have to be careful regarding my Heb/Gk if you & the others are learning this. I did do some at Bible college but that was years ago.
I think it`s good that we are discussing various topics & each have our contributions. I think on this topic of `women,` we`ll have to let the Lord reveal it to us in His time. I don`t like saying, `agree to disagree,` as it sounds like I am agreeing to someone`s error.
What topics do you like in the word? And why do you find what I write interesting? Is it because it is something you have not heard before? Just trying to understand what you meant.
Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10485 is a reply to message #10438] |
Tue, 03 December 2013 23:46 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
|
|
Marylin,
I think you are interesting because it is all about the
Word, and you are cantankerous.
No, I haven't learned anything new yet.
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 337 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
|
|
|
| Re: Testimony of Discipling [message #10486 is a reply to message #10485] |
Wed, 04 December 2013 00:06 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Ooooo Jman,
I trust that you mean by `cantankerous,` you mean contentious, meaning `to debate,` & not ill-natured & quarrelsome.
Yes I like to debate as it causes us to contend for what we believe, also good practice in `speaking the truth in love,` with the right attitude, & then working towards a greater understanding, comprehending with all saints on our precious Lord.
It is but early days yet of building relationships & building the foundation of what we believe. In time there will be not `fireworks,` I hope but searching deeper & deeper into God`s word.
Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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