| Apostles and Prophets [message #12170] |
Sun, 25 December 2016 03:06  |
 Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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I posted some of this material a while ago on a another thread. I wanted to post the rest of it in a systematic fashion so I'm starting a new thread with all the material.
Also instead of typing out Prophet and/or Apostle every time I'm going to abbreviate to A/P or A or P. Also I'm going to use the two words interchangeably unless I specify otherwise. Because most of the material applies to both ministries. As always I'm abbreviating Holy Spirit to HS.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Apostles and Prophets [message #12171 is a reply to message #12170] |
Sun, 25 December 2016 03:08  |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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All the 5F min ours including A/P
Who are they?
What are they?
How do they function?
How do you recognize them.
Was there only 12 A.?
Did men appoint Mathias?
Some people teach have to have seen Jesus & witness Resurrection.
The office of P/A down through history has largely been lost. I believe they here now and always have been although at times very rare.
The loss of A/P is inestimable. The 2 worst things ever to happen to the church are the loss of the Holy Spirit & the loss of the Apostles.
We have 500 denominations today because we don't have any apostles.
A are the only ones with authority and anointing to deal with the matter.
The reason the church doesn't know whats going on in the spiritual realm is we have no P tell us.
Eph. 4/11-14
When Jesus rose from the dead he sent the HS to set up the church
The way he set it up was with a 5/f ministry to lead and mature it.
1Cor.12/28 Ministries and gifts are set in the church.
None have authority to take them out. Not that that will stop them from trying.
Let’s look - A
Acts 1/21-26
This was a unique ministry. 12 men who were eye witnesses to Jesus entire ministry. 3 of them wrote NT scripture on it.
Someone had to take Judas place and Paul didn't qualify
The book of Acts was written at least 20 yrs later. If Matthias was not still part of that unique group it would not have been recorded here. What would be the point of recording it?
Apostles in the NT
The 12 obviously
Acts14/14 Paul & Barnabas both called A
Rom 16/7 Andronicus & Junias. There are some questions here about gender and the construction of the Greek as well as interpretation that I'm not going to get into.
Phil. 2/25 Epaproditus Gr. word used here translated messenger is apostle
11 Cor. 8/23 Again messengers the Gr. Word is A
It is saying Titus &the other unnamed Bros. are A
1Thess 1/1 the book is attributed to Paul but it was really coming from the 3 of them. Paul/Silas/Timothy According to 2/6 apostles is a plural word and it refers to all 3 of them.
We will deal with Silas being a prophet and Timothy being an evangelist later
Gal. 1/18-19 James the Lords Bro. He didn't qualify to be one of the 12.
I really don't understand how the cessationists can just pass this by.
1 Cor 4/6 with vs 9. Apollos was an A and if you read all it says about him evidently quite a eminent one.
Jude the Lords Bro. Wrote the book of Jude. An apostle
So we have at least 22 men that are named A in the NT & references to others unnamed. There are warnings in the NT to watch for false A & P If false ones then there must be true. Why else put the warnings in here.
I believe these 2 offices were very common in the NT church and not all were Pauls / Peters with significant world wide ministries. In fact I think most were just local ministries.
1 Cor 12/4 There is one Holy Spirit but many manifestations or operations along with many degrees authority.
What about Prophets? What is a prophet?
Some people think everyone that prophesies is a P.
No one ever got promoted into that office because they were good at prophesying. A prophet is called from his mothers womb. God does a work in his life and sets him in that office.
There is a difference between how we prophesy and how a prophet prophesies. Prophecy in the NT is just a simple gift. It comes by inspiration.
1 Cor.14/3 Its purpose is to bring comfort to encourage & to exhort. Everyone can do it and some have the gift for it.
A prophet prophesies by revelation. There is an unveiling of the spiritual realm to a prophet. A prophet gets a revelation and teaches or prophesies it
A prophet sees his revelation. Often stands in spiritual realm in the revelation seeing and participating in it.
William Branham is a good eg. It is said of him that he spent about 30% of his time in the spiritual realm. He would often be in a meeting and not know if he was in reality or in a revelation. His son who worked closely with him would see him rubbing his face and would go over and take his hand so he would know this was reality as he didn't know the difference.
A prophet uncovers spiritual realm. Often he will foretell future as God wants the church to know whats coming.
Acts 11/27-28 Agabus foretold a famine. God wanted his people to know whats coming so they could prepare. Acts 21/10-11 God wanted Paul to be aware of what was coming so he could make preparations for himself and not be caught by surprise. To prepare himself inwardly.
God wants us to know whats going on in the going on in the spiritual realm What God is doing and what the devil is planning so the church is aware and not caught by surprise.
Sometimes this office is combined as pastor or teacher. HEF would be a good eg of that. It doesn't have to be although often it is.
Sometimes a prophet is just a member of the church. Its not always a big ministry. Just a member of the church.
The gift NT & OT is exactly the same. They are Gods messengers. The speak for God. He calls them his servants. What is different in the NT is all can prophesy.
What about women? A prophetess. There are at least 3 in the OT and at least one in the NT. In that case it would generally not be combined with pastor or teacher. Usually this would be combined with an intercessor.
I personally cannot imagine a prophetess in a traveling ministry. If a women is a prophet she will sit in a church under a pastor. Is she is a housewife? She will be the same as any other housewife doing housework raising kids etc. You do not have to be the Virgin Mary or a nun to be a prophetess.
In general a prophetess is a simply a housewife and a member of the church
and often an intercessor as well like Anna in Luke 2.
What is an Apostle?
In over 40 yrs as an adult charismatic christian I have never heard anyone tell me what an A is. So we will correct that right now.
An Apostle is all the 5/F ministry gifts. This is all through the book of Acts
They would go into an area evangelize and start a church. Then stay and pastor it and teach it. Stand in the office of a prophet and being revelation to the church When some were ready they would ordain and set in ministry elders pastors teachers.
An A is all 5 of the ministry gifts. There are many manifestations of this office. Often they are set over the churches in a geographic area. Church tradition has it that Timothy was the Apostle over the churches in Ephesus.
Not all apostles had world wide ministries like Paul /Peter. Sometimes they are just trouble shooters. Go into an area and clean up messes.
Not all of them have big ministries. But all of them are all 5 gifts.
11Tim 4/5 Paul told him to “do” the work of an evangelist He didn't call him an evangelist.
He was saying don’t sit back on your accomplishments and just be an overseer over the churches Go out and make full proof your ministry. Fulfill all the gift you have been given.
Acts 15/32 Silas is called Prophet. Then in 1Thess he is called an Apostle
He didn't enter into the fullness of his ministry until he met up with Paul Until then he functioned as a Prophet.
Rev.10/9-11 “That” is the office of a prophet and he is an Apostle
Rom. 15/19-20 Paul the “apostle” is here operating as an evangelist.
What characterizes an Apostle?
This is not an exhaustive list but just some things I dug out of my studies.
1/ Rom. 15/19 Mighty signs & wonders. An apostle will have all the spiritual gifts operating. Not every day but in his ministry.
11 Cor. 12/12 There is specific mention that supernatural signs are part of an apostles ministry.
2/ Rom 15/20 He won't build on another man’s work. That doesn't mean he can't work as part of a team or with other men. But an apostle is a cutting edge ministry. In general his gift is wasted if he laboring in another mans field. Sometimes an apostle will go into a region or a church and straighten things out. Set proper doctrine, deal with the devil get rid of the trouble makers, sort out the confusion appoint ministry and generally get things in order.
Apostles like prophets & intercessors deal with things in the heavens. They will go into an area and cast out the Spiritual rulers over city/ region holding people in darkness then evangelize area.
An apostle will not build on another mans work. The nature of his ministry is he leads the way.
3/ Patience This is not Patience the fruit of the spirit.
11 Cor.12/12 11 Cor 6/4-5 1 Cor 4 / 9
The Gr word used here is endurance. Endurance here in regards to an apostle is a supernatural enabling for an apostle to endure trials and tribulations so he can fulfill his ministry.
An Apostle will have so much supernatural operating in his ministry that it has to be balanced with trials so he can keep his feet on the ground. Patience/endurance in the life of an apostle is a supernatural enabling so he can fulfill it without getting lifted up with pride. This was what Paul's thorn was.
4/ 11 Cor. 1 /12 Sincerity
Over and over Paul said he ministered in sincerity. They will evangelize with the gifts & in sincerity of heart preach the gospel. The gifts open the door and then people look. They see the sincerity in his life and open their heart & listen. Not all are saved obviously but they will listen. This is a very deep work in the heart of an man. To remove enough of the dross so the sincerity comes out.
It is also for all of us is a basic method of preaching Jesus. By using your life. Wives 1 Peter 3 Same with husbands Same with your friends
The Bible says you can preach to all those around you without saying a word Just in sincerity heart obeying God.
And apostles have it in spades. Signs &wonders, sincerity, supernatural ability to endure, not on another mans work
The basic ministry of an apostle is a shepherd. He is a Pastor over the churches in regions or countries. 1 Cor.4 / 14-16
11 Cor – Throughout the whole book he says I love you I pour my life out for you. I'm giving you an example to follow. The basic ministry of an Apostle is a shepherd.
Several Characteristics here of false A/P
They will strive for leadership & position & respect
Bring people into bondage
They are deceitful
Seek occasion to strive with others so they can win a better position for themselves
Glory in themselves
Make a way for themselves
Compare self to others
Looking to take not give like a father
All of this is in 1 & 11 Corinthians
How does God make a P/A What kind of work does he do ?
All kinds of people are called to this office
Ph.D's like Isaiah farmers like Amos
loud men quiet men big men small men
but the same work done in all of them.
It starts with a man becoming aware he has a call to deeper things
Why?
So he will sit still for the work be done.
If a man is called to be a A/P a deep work has to be done first
Why?
1/ Anyone can walk as close to God as they want. Anyone can have as much of God as they want.
But A/P have to walk very closely to God so there has to be a deep work done in their life so God can trust them to be close to him.
So they don't do stupid sins and foolish things then God has to stop what he is doing and straighten out his minister.
God has to trust A/P because they are very close to him. That's why a deep work is required.
2/ Another reason for a deep work in their life is because they carry a lot of authority and God has to able to trust them with it.
That authority is real. When Elijah called down fire from heaven he didn't ask anyone's permission.
The work had to be done in his life first so God could trust Elijah with that kind of authority.
3/ To remove problems from their life that will cause trouble down the road
pride,vain glory,love of money fornication all problems that plaque humanity. The work is done before the man steps into the office.
I can't emphasize that strongly enough. The work is done first.
There is no such thing on the job training for A/P. This doesn't mean they are perfect. But a deep work done first. Isn't that true of medical doctors ?
They go through some basic training. They learn the material and pass their tests. Acquire the basic knowledge & understanding to do the job and then call themself a doctor.
Its exactly the same procedure for a A/P. He acquires the basic tools do the job. Then he steps into the office.
4/ Another reason for a deep work is because they speak for God.
God has to trust them and so do we. Often times in the OT you see Gods concern that the word of a Prophet be accepted as Gods word.
Its often said “for the mouth of the Lord has spoken” or something similar.
They speak for God so a deep work has to be done so they can be trusted.
5/ Another reason for a deep work is because sometimes it is a hard message. Look at Jeremiah. He is called the weeping prophet and for good reason. The work has to be deep enough for God to trust the man with the message. And that takes time!!!
John Baptist -30 years
Moses 40 years
Paul / Barnabas years Antioch
Its a deep work and it takes time.
When God begins work in a man called to these offices here is a work he begins
1/ The man becomes very black & white Not a lot shades of gray in these people. I'm speaking here about his inner makeup his opinions his views on society and the church. His stands on morality and righteousness.
For an eg. Look at Nehemiah. He was very black and white.
You were either with him or against him. Either walking in Gods righteousness or you weren't. Yet at the same time (like Elijah) you see his concern for the poor for righteousness and for Israel.
Paul was exactly the same. This obviously has to be balanced with the fruit of the Spirit. You don't go around judging people all the time.
2/ The man becomes very strong in spirit. That is said of both Jesus & John Baptist They had strong opinions and were strong men capable of taking the abuse of the world. These men are shepherds over the church. They aren't followers. They blaze the trail. Like Paul they say follow me.
They're not macho not loud but very strong inwardly. They're not sentimentalists either.
One issue here is not all of them start out this way. But when God is finished they are black & white. The loudness bragging harshness is removed before they get into the office.
Speaking of Harshness . . . There was a 5f minister out of FA who had a call to this kind of ministry. I don't know if the call was real or not. But it came through the personal appearance of Jesus. He was part of FA and ministered in a church in another country. He had a tremendous anointing a real compassion but ministered with a 40lb bible. Left a terrible condemnation over the church. “If” it was a genuine call he was at the very least not ready to stand in the office. Harshness comes out of a wounded heart. Jesus said he came to heal the broken hearted. He wasn't ready to stand in any 5f office let alone prophet. The work is done before the man steps into the office.
These men are very sure of the ground they stand on They know they speak for God and do so forcefully & strongly. Men that are capable of leadership not weaklings. They can be very quiet men but they're not weaklings when God is finished with them. Again the issue is they are not always this way when God starts the work.
Why does God do this work of making a man strong in spirit and black & white? Because often you only one saying what God wants said.
Micah in1 Kings 22 & the whole book of Jeremiah.
Sometimes a true Prophet has to stand alone and that why they are strong men when God finishes the work.
The context to my comments here is that we are in the last days.
Matt 24 Mark 13 Luke 21
P/A are going to arise in the midst of these problems.
Wars & rumors of wars. The political systems in an uproar
epidemics diseases
earthquakes strange weather signs heavens weird things
iniquity abounding/ people afraid / lots of crime
breakdown of society / breakdown of families
great persecution
great confusion in the world political systems
weather in an uproar
great anointing falling.
true & false apostles and prophets arising
great confusion in the religious systems and the church
men arising and showing miracles & promising answers
people scared & confused so they follow them
It is imperative that we know how to tell the difference between the true and the false because those that can't are going to be deceived.
The elect are not going to be deceived and its not because they have some supernatural discernment. It will be because they have taken the time from the Bible how to tell the difference between the true and false.
The supernatural is going to be around us everywhere - P/A anointing's supernatural things happening. The issue here is that Jesus said the false ones would be doing the supernatural too.
I know I'm preaching to the converted on this issue here but . . . we have to look beyond the supernatural beyond intuition / discernment/ basic anointing to the infallible ruler God gave us judge with. The Word of God
Matt 7/ 15- 20 Outside the operation of some anointing or gift the only way we have to tell the difference is to look at fruit. Ravening wolves don't come looking like ravening wolves. Or we would never listen to them.
They come looking like sheep or shepherds. Thats the reason why we examine fruit.
What is Fruit? Its not the fruit of the spirit although it includes that.
Its everything in a mans life. His life his ministry his family his speech his teachings One of the Puritans said honest ministry is like truth. It will stand up under scrutiny. It won't get bruised by a little handling.
Two things to be aware of here.
1/ only way we have to know if a man is a true Prophet is to check fruit. We can't rely on a supernatural anointing or special gift
2/ God will never take away the sheep’s right examine fruit. We as sheep have the right to examine fruit to keep ourselves being deceived.
How do we examine Fruit?
In a word respectfully! Ministers get enough criticism. If they are true we want to make them welcome.
The issue though is that a true P/A knows the sheep have the right to check fruit and ask questions. Rev. 2 / 2 Jesus said it is OK to test Apostles. No true man of God ever objects to the checking of fruit.
If you try and respectfully examine fruit and the P/A does not quietly yield to it then consider them examined and found wanting show them the door.
No man of God would ever say . . . I’m God's anointed don’t you dare touch me. Its so important to check fruit because once a man has control & responsibility its too late. He has control.
We have the right to check fruit because Jesus said so. We do it respectfully but we do it.
Another thing that happens sometimes when you ask questions & check fruit
The man just humbly walks away. It looks so spiritual. His attitude and his demeanor it looks so humble. But what does he have to hide? Didn’t God send him? It looks so spiritual. But in his heart he is saying . . . who are you? I’m a A/P.
No man of God would ever take away the sheep's right to check fruit. Men like that are not A/ P And they are not God’s minister's.
It is essential to test P/A so we know who the true ones are and don't get deceived.
Mark 13/22 Jesus said false prophets are to going arise and deceive & seduce many. Deceive and seduce MANY Christians.
Matt 7/ 22-23 I believe there will be Christians who won't take heed to Jesus words here and aren't careful to check fruit. A deceiving spirit comes into their life through a false ministry. Then in a time when discernment is absolutely critical it will cover their eyes they will take the mark of the beast and then walk out of Jesus kingdom.
If you consider yourself one of God’s elect you better check fruit.
A/P are a treasure in the church. We don't want to miss them. They deal with things in the heavens. They have authority to protect the church. They have a supernatural ability to clear away the confusion Jesus said would come. They are the only ones with the anointing to get the church through the dark days that are coming.
In my opinion in the days in which we live they are going to come worldwide in the 10's of 1000's. We need to know how to discern the true from the false.
With the other half of my notes here I have 13 ways to check fruit.
Down to earth, simple easy to understand. Not deep not theological. Just simple basic easy to understand tests that we can use to tell if a man is a true Prophet or Apostle
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Apostles and Prophets [message #12172 is a reply to message #12171] |
Sun, 25 December 2016 03:09 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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Tests For True & False A&P
I'm going to use my shorthand here . . . instead of writing “here is how you will know them I'm going to write “HHYK”
These are not exhaustive. Just down to earth basic simple easy to understand tests. Not overly deep or overly theological.
Some tests are taken right off the page of the Bible We're just going to read them right off. I should also say that some of this stuff is very basic. But you don't always know who is reading here so for completeness sake I'm putting it all in. I also have some of this material on another thread but again for the sake of completeness I'm going to put it all here.
HHYK-
1/ They will identify themselves exactly.
There is enough confusion in the church and world (and its going to get much worse) and we need know exactly what they are so we can examine fruit The true P/A knows he has identify himself. If the sheep are to examine fruit how will we know if he doesn't identify himself.
If a man has a call and he is not identifying himself then he has a good reason for it
He may call himself a preacher of righteousness or I'm just a 5/f minister. Then he has good reasons for it. Maybe the work in his life isn't done yet.
Maybe it isn't God's time. Look at Silas being a prophet.
But we will not accept him as a prophet until he does clearly identify himself.
I'm not trying to criticize anyone when I say this but . . . one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on this issue is that prophet don't hand out calling cards. Meaning a business card. How are we supposed to identify them? Do we all have word of knowledge operating?
The reason people say “prophets don't hand out calling cards” is because people lift up prophets. They think prophets are some great one. And if a man claims to be a prophet then he must think he's some great one.
Well the prophet doesn't think that. He just thinks he's a 5f minister
Do you want to know who A/P are? I will point right to them. We'll identify them clearly. They're your bros. / sons / fathers / husbands / friends. If you don't understand that and you're looking for some great one. You'll miss the Lord. Because they are coming world wide in the 10's of 1000’s and all of them are just 5 f ministers.
Jesus was the greatest prophet that ever lived but when he came to Nazareth all they saw was a carpenter.
They were looking for some great one and all they got was one out of their midst
One of most important things to say in these notes is that the A/P we're looking for is our neighbor. He isn't some great one. The great apostle Paul was just a tent maker. People knew him. His mommy changed his diapers.
The pride is removed before the office comes. That is pretty basic.
One of the most foolish things on this issue we can do is put a man into an office he doesn't put self in. That comes right out of that calling card business. Are we all supposed to have an anointing to know who is and who isn't?
There is too much deception and confusion coming. If a man is a prophet let him say so. Then we can check fruit and then we'll know. Then there will be no confusion Just let him say it say strait out just like Paul did.
2/ HHYK John 10 /1-3
Because they will come in through door God has already set there.
All of these tests are based on a man identifying the office he stands in.
Jesus here in John 10 is talking about himself As the shepherd
But it is also talking about the under shepherds
An A/P will come in through ministry God has already set in place
Pastors have authority and responsibility and a true A/P will recognize that.
If the ministry won't open the door then a true A will have other means to get the door open.
An Apostle coming into a church where he is not known will not come in creating upheaval/ uproar/ confusion/ commanding / ministering fear and cracking the whip. God very rarely does things that way.
If it is of the Lord the people and the ministry will recognize the voice of the shepherd through the man and see the validity of his office.
If God sends A/P he will come through the door the shepherd God has already set there. And if the problem there is the shepherd then the A/P has other means to deal wit him other than confusion and upheaval.
3/ HHYK- Acts 14 /26-28
They will be part of a church somewhere. Paul & Barnabas were sent out
from Antioch and to their church they came back
A/P will be part of a church somewhere. The problem here is that a lot of “prophets & apostles” think they're God's prophet and don't have to submit to the local church.
I had a “prophet” out of FA tell me that Bro. Freeman wasn't responsible to the local church. Apparently I guess he stood in class by himself. I could never understand why HEF was above the biblical command to “not forsake the gathering of ourselves together”
All I am saying here is that A/P are part of a church somewhere. Parachurch ministries are not in the bible. There is no such thing in the bible as a worldwide/ invisible/ mystical church. Any ministry or outreach is part of a church and responsible to it God gave responsibility for spiritual matters to the church under the leadership of a 5/f ministry.
The test here is are they part of a church where fruit can be checked questions asked and lives known.
4/ HHYK
They won’t come looking for free room & board. A free meal an easy life. The laziness is burned out of these men before they ever get into the office.
When God sends a Prophet somewhere where he is not known. Before he ever gets there he will have it sorted how he is going to support himself.
Because sometimes it takes time examine fruit. There is nothing wrong with a man just being a part of the assembly until the people and the leadership sort things out.
Nor is there is anything wrong with a church where he is known supporting him until his credentials are established.
So many get into ministry because they think its an easy job a free lunch
When Paul had reasons he was never afraid to work with his hands
I cannot emphasize strongly enough these are not lazy men. An A/P is not an easy job. There is much yielding a deep work in their life much death self
a lot of intercession fasting prayer and trials.
Its not an easy job. Sometimes they have to work 2 full time jobs. To support their family and take care of SP matters church
The only people who want to be prophets are those with no clue what it means. The prophet would just as soon someone else do it
The test here is they won’t come looking for free room & board Until their credentials are established and fruit checked and sometimes that takes time.
5/ HHYK Acts 6 / 2 - 4
They will be men of prayer and the word. All of us need a proper balance in our life. I think the reason Bro. Freeman was lonely was he didn't have this.
The ministry are to be men of prayer and the word. Leave the administrative functions to the deacons.
It is essential for an apostle here because apostles set doctrine.
Eight different apostles wrote the NT and all said same things. Because that is the apostolic gift. Doctrine is not set by revelation. It is not set apart from revelation either. Apostles setting doctrine need the office of prophet operating in their life.
Doctrine is set by what God already said. Thats why study is required.
In my opinion when apostles come they are going to clear away a lot of this doctrinal confusion.
Where in the Bible do we see apostles having problems taking united stands on doctrine? There was a church council in Acts 15 on a matter of doctrine. What are we going to do about the law of Moses in regards to all the gentiles getting saved was the question.
All the leadership elders prophets and apostles including the pharisees vs 5 came to a united position on the matter. Vs 7 “much disputing” vs 13 “they held their peace”
There were A / P there but the decision based on what the Bible said
Those that didn't agree later in the bible Paul call them false Apostles
The apostolic gift works for setting doctrine on three things and one will not work without the other.
1. He needs to be in the word so he knows what God already said
2. He needs to in prayer so he can be in tune with the Spirit
3. He needs the revelatory gifts operating. The office of prophet.
The apostolic gift works for setting doctrine on these three things and one will not work without the other.
The prevailing opinion today is nobody has all the truth. Because Gods truth is too big for one person. The Bible though says Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. Big difference. And he uses apostles do it. And they all say the same thing.
I'm not sure how much of the mess in Christendom God is going to clean up in this end time. But I do know that however much of the doctrinal mess he cleans up will be done through his apostles.
I want to say here clearly that it is completely foreign to the nature & anointing of an apostle to set aside his doctrinal beliefs. If he can do that he is not an apostle.
Please note I am not saying he won't work with other men. I'm saying the prevailing opinions in the church about the usefulness of doctrine is nonsense.
The test here is they will be men of prayer and the word. That will be where his time is spent.
6/ HHYK 11 Cor 13/ 10
They are conscious of the fact they carry divine authority and are very careful in it’s use. That authority is real. Thats why a deep work is done in their lives. So God can trust them with it. It's not used to not scare people or make them afraid. Its not used to point to ones self as a great one.
Its used to build up & edify the church. I'm saying this because I've seen it happen.
Peter - Acts 5/ 11 - 12
One reason this happened was because God wanted to establish Apostolic authority. Apostles lead church and God wanted that authority recognized & established. It is right in context to this that vs 12 “they were all in one accord” I'm sure everyone started taking serious heed to the apostles doctrine. I don't think Peter had a lot of arguments over doctrine after this happened.
The test here is that apostles will be aware of and very careful with the use of divine authority.
7/ HHYK
They will preach a message in line with the A/P that have gone before them.
1. It will line up with the infallible record we have in he bible.
2. It will line up with what the other A/P saying
When men speak for God they will speak the same message already given.
The Apostle Paul had a revelation that he was an apostle to the gentiles. That the gentiles were to be fellow heirs with the Jews. The reason that revelation was accepted by the elders in Jerusalem was because it was in the word. Acts 15
The revelations of a prophet have to be right on. Because that is God speaking. That does not mean a prophet or apostle has to believe everything perfectly. But when he stands in his prophetic or apostolic office the revelation has to line up.
The test here is the prophets revelation will line up with revelation already given – Through the word and through the other true A/P
8/ HHYK
By your own discernment 1 John 2 / 27
anyone with the baptism of the Holy Spirit has an anointing to understand basic spiritual things. There is nothing wrong with making an initial decision basis of a check spirit. One good principle is if something doesn't seem right then it probably isn’t.
If you're walking with the Lord and you have a check you really need to look any further. check ? Don't let anyone talk you out of a check in your spirit
The next three are together in the same place in the bible and they are there together for a reason. They are all in Deuteronomy and Numbers. This is where the nation was established and God wanted things settled and established right at the start.
Because his plan was to send many prophets to Israel. He wanted them to know right at the start how to tell the real from the false. It is also worth noting here that Jesus in the NT also told us how to tell the difference between the true and false.
There were hundreds of prophets in Israel. There were many false ones too Lots in Ezekiel /Jeremiah / Kings
Remember here there is no difference between a NT and an OT prophet. The gift is exactly the same. Another thing to remember is that a apostle is a prophet. These tests are current for us too
1/ HHYK Duet 18 / 20- 22
The prophecies of a true prophet will meet the test of fulfillment
OT & NT before he ever gets into the office he learns to tell the difference between what God is saying and his own feelings and other supernatural voices and impressions
When a prophet gets a Revelation it comes as clear as day. A revelation or vision to a prophet is not something he just sees. It's something he stands in and participates in.
It is clearly said in Duet.18 if it doesn't come to pass he is not a prophet of the Lord.
2/ HHYK Duet 13 / 1-5
They will speak only in the name of the Lord. One has to wonder why you have to say this to Christians. But . . . apparently one does. BTW I don't think this applies to anyone here.
A true Prophet will speak of and point only to Jesus. And its worth saying in light of JDS etc he will only point to the Jesus of the bible. If a man is a A/P the reality of Jesus in his life will be so great he will able to do nothing but speak and and point to Jesus.
I have one good eg of this regarding someone who as far as I know did not claim to be a prophet. But she did claim to be a Christian teacher. This was back in the 70's. Her bro was the president of the USA. She ministered a lot in the area of inner healing
As an aside I think there is a valid place for inner healing for Christians. Jesus said he came to heal the broken hearted (Luke 4/18) I think today in charismatic circles it is very misplaced and mispracticed. The problem though is that many people are deeply hurting. What do we do here? What do we do for eg. about kids grown up now that were sexually abused? Just tell them to man up a little?
The answer IMO in a nutshell is
1. Pray in tongues. It will access the deep things in ones heart
2. Pray the prayer of Faith with or without help
3. Forgiveness. There is no substitute for this. You have to deal with your own heart until you can forgive. In most cases healing will come with the forgiving.
IMO there are as many people in need of this kind of healing as need physical healing. Harsh words come out of wounded hearts.
To go back to our minister here she taught (on inner healing) to take Jesus back to that hurting place with you and he will heal it. OK well maybe!! BUT she didn't stop there. She taught that if you were Roman Catholic then take the Virgin Mary back with you. And she didn't stop there! She said are you a Buddhist? Thats OK its works for you too. Just take Buddha back with you.
Now the issue is that no christian minister would say that. The entire focus of a prophet (or any other minister) is Jesus. He will point only to Jesus. His entire ministry revolves around Jesus. IMO any minister that would say that is not just making a mistake. They don't know the Lord.
Lots of religions will point to Jesus as a prophet or teacher but only the prophet of the Lord will say he's God. In Matt 24 Jesus said false Christ’s would arise obviously pointing at themselves. I would add to that false prophets arising pointing to the false Christ’s
The test here is if a man is a P/A he will point only to the Jesus of the Bible.
3/ HHYK Num. 12 / 5-8
They will receive a personal divine call from the Lord Jesus Christ. They will see the Lord face to face in a vision or a dream. These vs are talking about how God calls a prophet. By vision or dream and contrasts that with his dealing with the special way he dwelt with Moses.
vs 6 I the Lord will …
God has not changed his way of doing things. If a man is a P/A he will see the Lord in a vision or a dream. By that I mean he will not just see it but stand in it. He will get a personal call with personal instructions.
In the Bible not every prophet shares how he got his call BUT all that do this how it came. By a personal revelation of the Lord. I mean by that face to face
Ezekiel / Jeremiah / Isaiah / Samuel / Amos
In 1 Cor 9/1 Paul in proving his Apostle credentials pointed to having seen the Lord.
Why does it come this way?
1. A/P walk in this realm anyway. In the Bible they saw & participated in their visions
2. Many times there are personal instructions Things they have to know. Like for eg the extant of their responsibilities. Over and over in the bible God calls the prophets his servants.
3. Often its a difficult call and they need a great revelation to anchor them. All the prophets in the bible went through difficult times. They often stood alone against the nation and the other prophets.
4. Because one is generally loyal to the one who called you. Denominational board or the church that elected you for eg.
A direct call from Jesus means you're loyal only to him.
Every prophet in the bible without exception who records how he was called shows it to be the personal appearance of the Lord.
The test here if a man is a prophet or apostle he will get a personal call from the lord Jesus. Num13.
# 12 HHYK
They will meet Biblical standards of Holiness This is really where the rubber meets the road. This is the one they have to live with day in day out.
As has been pointed out by lots of people his message will be indistinguishable from his life.
They may not have this kind of character when they start. But they sure do when God finishes with them. AND before they step into the office.
How could God use Peter to deal with Ananias and Saphira if he had a problem with holiness in his life.
Are God's P/A perfect? Obviously not. But they don't have problems with basic holiness either. God uses A/P to deal with holiness in the church and that means they have to walk it too. I should add it the job of the 5/f to learn how to walk it and then teach the church.
Test here is that A/P will walk in biblical holiness
HHKT # 13
If a P/A does fall into serious sin they will submit to godly discipline.
Gal 6 / 1-4 These vs say more than just restore. There are instructions here for both the one fallen and the one restoring
To the one restoring he needs to look to himself as we are all human. We need to bear each others burdens.
To the one being restored its vs 3-4. Restoration is more than just coming back. One needs to prove his own work. Show the fruits of repentance.
Where it concerns senior ministry & “serious” sin if a man has a true call then we will see true fruit even here. If a man has a true call he will show true repentance.
IMO in speaking of senior ministry like P/A and serious sin the only acceptable fruit is that he steps out of his ministry.
How else are we going to know he has a true call. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.
What if he is a false prophet? It just took this long in his life for his true inward nature to come out. Outside of some supernatural gift all we know is what we see.
I'm talking about serious sin and senior ministry. Nobody ever fell into adultery overnight. That is a long downward slide. Its a long climb back up too.
We have an eg right in the bible . . .
Acts 12 / 25 Acts 13/13 Acts 15/37- 39 Col 4/10
Letters were sent out that this man is removed from ministry & not to be received. Then again he has been restored to ministry so receive him.
Now between Acts 15 & Col 4 was a good 10 years.
In my opinion this man was an apostle. A very common office in the early church. Later church writings and tradition have Mark as a prominent apostle. Paul here thought the matter was serious enough to remove him from ministry and write letters to the churches concerning him. He left him sit for 10 years.
WHY??? Because the only way Paul had to know if he had a true ministry gift was to look for fruit. Paul waited until he saw fruit. How else was he to know. Did he have supernatural eyes to see his heart?
You have to look for fruit and sometimes that takes time.
We will know a true A/P because if they fall into “serious” sin they will . . .
1. give up their ministry
2. sit quietly under anointed leadership somewhere (a pastor)
Until they can straighten things out in their life and that takes time.
Three things say here:
1. We know the difference between true and false A/P by their fruit.
2. We have to make clear level headed decisions. Not based on sentiment and emotion because peoples lives depend on it.
3. The supernatural is not enough because the false ones will do it too.
[Updated on: Sun, 25 December 2016 03:14]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Apostles and Prophets [message #12178 is a reply to message #12172] |
Sun, 25 December 2016 23:51 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Mark,
Really good comments there bro. I`ll just highlight this important point you made -
The prevailing opinion today is nobody has all the truth. Because Gods truth is too big for one person. The Bible though says Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. Big difference. And he uses apostles do it. And they all say the same thing.
I'm not sure how much of the mess in Christendom God is going to clean up in this end time. But I do know that however much of the doctrinal mess he cleans up will be done through his apostles.
My uncle (who wrote `Fires before the Dawn` in the eschatological section) was a recognised Apostle in our movement & the leader of such here in Australia in the `60`s & `70`s. Now He said that when the Apostolic ministry is received & in operation in the Body it will be a quick work to bring the Body of Christ to maturity of the faith.
regards, Marilyn.
[Updated on: Sun, 25 December 2016 23:52]
Marilyn C
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