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| The Crucified Life... [message #9038] |
Tue, 31 July 2012 14:23  |
 james
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"And He said to them ALL, If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow Me." Luke 9:23
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me." Matthew 10:38
I've been reading from The Word and also from a few online books and references concerning The Cross and living the crucified life as it relates to what Jesus told us to do. I have gone over what Bro. Freeman wrote in 'The Deeper Life' book, which is very good and insightful; also I've read parts of A.W.Tozer's books 'The Radical Cross' and 'The Crucified Life', also very good with sound conclusions and scriptural references. The NT also has a lot of teaching on living the crucified life as first Jesus then Paul relates the deeper truths of what daily dying to self means and the differences between flesh and spirit and how we're to 'walk' through this life as followers of Christ. I continue to learn and grow in this area of my Christian walk, (overcoming the flesh and learning to daily seek, willingly, the death of 'self'.)
Then I came across this article or book by David Wilkerson titled, 'I'm Not Mad at God'. Now first let me say I respect David Wilkerson as a godly man and believe he's gone to be with The Lord along with A.W.Tozer and Hobart Freeman. But according to quotes from this article or book David seems to have misunderstood what Jesus clearly said more than once concerning the crucified life, the cross, dying daily, and the deeper life gained by obedience to this teaching.
I quote:
"It is impossible to live a crucified life. It is not scriptural...
It tends only to bondage. We must pass on to the resurrected life of joy, victory, and rest.
1. Crucifixion is not a way of life. It is an act!
2. It is completed when I am comformed to His cross and cry by faith: 'It is finished'.
3. I am buried by faith and reckoning.
4. Then the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead rushes into my mortal body and quickens me, enabling me to live the resurrected life."
I was disappointed when reading this, though I don't have my confidence in any man, I did expect different from him.
Anyone have any thoughts on this, is he right in his conclusion or are we to continue to daily take up our cross and follow Jesus. I understand some scriptures require more study and understanding than others, but I believe these scriptures are quite clear to those seeking to follow Jesus.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9039 is a reply to message #9038] |
Tue, 31 July 2012 18:36  |
james
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This is a quote from "The Crucified Life" by A.W. Tozer. The book can be read free in Google Books.
"The crucified life is a life absolutely committed to following after Christ Jesus. To be like Him. To think like Him. To act like Him. To love like Him. The whole essence of spiritual perfection has everything to do with Jesus Christ. Not with rules and regulations. Not with how we dress or what we do or do not do. We are not to look like each other; rather, we are to look like Christ. We can get all caught up in the nuances of religion and miss the glorious joy of following after Christ. Whatever hinders us in our journey must be dealt a deathblow."
Looking back, somehow I think so many of 'us' did exactly that; got caught up in do's and don't and stunned our growth, possibly costing years of precious time.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9041 is a reply to message #9040] |
Tue, 31 July 2012 23:22 |
Mark L
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enabling me to live the resurrected life.
I think a lot of them teach that. As oppposed to the crucified life. I remember Kieth Green talking about it. One of his songs that I really like is based on that whole thing.
I went through a series of trials that are now just ending and I have to say that I did not appreciate them. The Lord showed me though that I can now walk through issues like that without it affecting me. I've been through the fire. It simply doesn't affect me anymore. At least where it concerns my effectiveness in doing God's will.
Crucified life is the same. At some point there comes a quietness and obedience inside. Things that affected us just don't affect us anymore. Unfortunately there is only one way to get there. Just being willing to yield to the trials of the crucified life.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9042 is a reply to message #9041] |
Tue, 07 August 2012 00:22 |
james
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Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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More thoughts and lessons being learned concerning living the crucified life, or walking in the Spirit.
I've been prayerfully going over scriptures on crucifying the flesh and the instructions given as how to do it effectively. Paul devotes a good bit of Romans to explaining and contrasting the ways of the flesh and walking in the Spirit.
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Romans 8:13
mortify: shame; humiliate. Bring (the body, the flesh, passions, ect.) into subjection by self-denial or discipline...Oxford American Dictionary
So I see the instruction to take up our cross daily and to follow Jesus not an option but an ultimatum if we're truly Christians. I think a key part of the cross is denial of 'self' which requires discipline in every aspect of our lives. But not getting caught up in legalism and do's and don't's...which is a results of walking in the flesh and not the Spirit.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9043 is a reply to message #9042] |
Tue, 07 August 2012 07:35 |
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william
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| james wrote on Mon, 06 August 2012 19:22 |
I've been prayerfully going over scriptures on crucifying the flesh and the instructions given as how to do it effectively. Paul devotes a good bit of Romans to explaining and contrasting the ways of the flesh and walking in the Spirit.
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Romans 8:13
mortify: shame; humiliate. Bring (the body, the flesh, passions, ect.) into subjection by self-denial or discipline...Oxford American Dictionary
So I see the instruction to take up our cross daily and to follow Jesus not an option but an ultimatum if we're truly Christians. I think a key part of the cross is denial of 'self' which requires discipline in every aspect of our lives. But not getting caught up in legalism and do's and don't's...which is a results of walking in the flesh and not the Spirit.
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You know, the longer I live the simpler the 'requirements' of Jesus seem to become. I'm not trying to sound pious or licentious but my life as a Christian has gone from being one where the minutiae of religion was an all-important, all-consuming, pursuit to a place where most of these things seem merely to be outward conformity to what I thought deeper life Christianity was all about.
First it happened in the realm of faith. Much time was spent trying to figure out the steps of faith and what was the proper way to 'act' faith. Would this, or that, be faith? I'm ashamed to say it but much of this critiquing was directed not only at my own life but toward everyone I met. This mind-set persisted in the area of overcoming and in the area of the crucified life. Once I knew the rules I was pretty good at conformity. The obligatory pat-on-the-back (even if it was by my own hand!) was a satisfactory reward.
Only later did I come to realize that the thing that was missing was a relationship. Oh it was easy to quote this or that verse to prove a point but without focusing on the relationship aspect it was just an exhibition of religious pride.
Enoch, it is said, 'walked with God' (Ge5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.). It doesn't say that he figured out all of the commandments, or that he had all of his religious ducks in a row, only that he walked with God. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't the fact that his 'actions' pleased God (although the actions that stemmed from his relationship would have no doubt been proper actions) but he didn't get the cart before the horse, he sought God and Voil! his actions followed.
I think this passage says exactly that:
| Quote: |
Heb11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
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It may all seem a matter of semantics but really I think that having a relationship with God and the actions that follow BECAUSE of that relationship, is vastly different from the mind-set that thinks that our actions somehow grants us a relationship with God. When we do things that we think are pleasing to God there is a self-satisfaction that we are in a relationship with Him --which is totally a deception. Living the crucified life with all of the denial of self we can muster will not produce a relationship with God.
However, if we cultivate that relationship by seeking Him (not just seeking to do those things that we think will please Him) all of the other things seem to fall into place. Even when those other things don't seem to be totally in order, our love for Him will eventually take care of it all. We see examples throughout the Bible where the actions of those beloved of God fell way short of the ideal but because they loved Him (because He first loved them!) there is no doubt about their status in His kingdom.
The group that prominently headlines the right-action-without-a-relationship crowd is the Pharisees. They exemplify, better than any other group, those who thought they had a relationship when all they had was a bunch of meaningless regulations. The things that were thought to be the pathway to piety were in reality nothing more than a boat anchor when it came to walking with God. All of my faith/crucified-life/deeper-life endeavors were heavy anchors. I placed these, not only on myself, but on every other brother and sister in Christ with whom I came into contact before the simple truth of God's love and grace begin to manifest itself.
Now, when I think of the deeper life, it isn't focused on the things that I avoid, or how scriptural my actions may be. If I'm doing something, hopefully I'm doing it for His glory and not my own. To me that is the essence of the crucified life. It's so simple... yet it is so profound!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9059 is a reply to message #9043] |
Sun, 26 August 2012 15:53 |
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william
Messages: 1462
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Principles, or rules?
What is the difference?
If we take the principles of God's word and made them into rules have we helped or harmed the kingdom of God?
Is the converse -- taking rules and turning them into principles -- an acceptable practice for the Church?
First I think that we really need to examine the difference between the terms because that will determine how we proceed.
A principle is a concept that embodies someones philosophy, and a rule, while it may be a valid practical expression of that philosophy, does not become a substitute for the philosophy itself.
We could take that statement and further define it by stating that a philosophy is essentially the same thing as the 'will' of the person or, more importantly in our case, the 'will' of God.
One can readily see the problems that arise from making the 'rules' a substitute for the philosophy. In fact, I see this as one of the most repeated mistakes that we as Christians make; we take the rule and present it as the 'will' of God.
This practice makes it easy to judge whether or not a person is complying with God's will, or not. We tend to gravitate toward using this 'rule of thumb' because of just that --it's easy! In a nutshell, this is what the Pharisees did. They mistook keeping the rules for obedience to God.
In one sense, this might be proper. For instance, a child may not know the principle of why he/she is forbidden to touch, taste or handle something (Col2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;) and in one sense we consider them 'obedient' when they observe the precept/rule. Unfortunately outward obedience, only marginally veils the rebellious heart, and given enough time, the true nature of the heart is revealed. Obviously, in many cases, their 'obedience' only served to mask the fact that they were in reality -- disobedient children.
So, how does that apply to us?
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Wed, 17 October 2012 20:47]
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9060 is a reply to message #9059] |
Sun, 26 August 2012 18:01 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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Great comments and observations; all I can say for certain is that apart from the Mercy and Grace of God I wouldn't stand a chance of entering in. I've made so many rules and expected others to follow them that the Biblical Pharisees had nothing on me.
I started to post these song lyrics a few days ago, they're from Hillsong United and the song is titled: "From the Inside Out"
"A thousand times I've failed
Still Your Mercy remains
Should I stumble again
Still I'm caught in Your Grace.
Everlasting, Your light will shine when all else fades
Never ending, Your Glory goes beyond all fame.
In my heart, in my soul
I give You control
Consume me from the inside out
Let justice and praise
Become my embrace
To love You from the inside out"
One would think a man would be further along after 30 plus years, but Praise His Holy Name, He IS working in me...and words can't begin to express my gratitude.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9256 is a reply to message #9061] |
Sun, 13 January 2013 17:23 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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I was thinking about why I (and maybe others) haven't seen/experienced or grown into what we see taught and demonstrated in the NT by the early Christians. Not just wondering to be wondering but seeing what The Word of God says. Today while reading in Jeremiah chapter 5 these verses convicted my heart, the context is God speaking to Israel and Judah through Jeremiah calling them to repentance and telling them the reasons for the judgment they were experiencing and would yet experience.
"Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you." Jere. 5:25
And then the real truth is exposed that is applical today, I believe...
"The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priest bear rule by their means, AND MY PEOPLE LOVE TO HAVE IT SO:..." verse 31
Living the crucified life isn't the popular message, so the people set up 'prophets' and 'priest' over themselves who will prophesy good things, who will tell them what they want to hear.("It's OK, you're OK, It doesn't really mean what it says about dying to self" )Sin is often surgarcoated over or not even spoken of today.
Yet, in His great Mercy, Grace, and Love God continually offers forgiveness and restoration IF we will only confess and return unto Him. Wash our hands, repent, draw near unto Him, cry aloud for our rebelliousness...Take up our cross DAILY, and follow Him, Jesus.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9257 is a reply to message #9256] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 06:22 |
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william
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That is a good passage for reflection, James. (Jer 5)
You said:| Quote: |
I was thinking about why I (and maybe others) haven't seen/experienced or grown into what we see taught and demonstrated in the NT by the early Christians.
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I do agree that sin is the ever-present scapegoat whenever one finds himself in a place of judgement. We can trace that theme throughout the Bible. Not only that but a refusal to take up the cross and follow Jesus is going to be problematic. How else are we going to mature? Worse than that though, is what a 'cross-less' life might reveal about a person's status as a Christian.
But, that said, let's assume that we are seeking to take up our cross on a daily basis. Let's assume that our hearts are right in this matter. (I'm not suggesting that a person should assume this --if it isn't true!) This doesn't mean that we are presently perfected... like Paul, we will most likely find that this is an ongoing process. Romans 7. We will face struggles in this area as long as we are in the flesh which suggests to me that a with-holding of those experiences you mentioned ("...demonstrated by the early Christians") is not necessarily a result of our lack of consecration to the 'crucified life' on our part.
If perfection was the requirement then we ought to just forget about it (signs, wonders, miracles) ever happening in this life and wait until we are glorified. The early disciples don't strike me as a group that had cornered the market on the crucified life any quicker than we pick up on it. Look no further than the Corinthians! Apparently they were abundantly blessed with the gifts even as they were being dressed down for overt sin in their midst!
That leaves at least two options that I can think of (there may be more) and that is: 1) the area of faith, and 2) the area of the fellowship of believers.
Concerning faith... I'm pretty sure that our faith is probably progressing at about the same speed as the early Christians. Remember, they had even less biblical material than we have and most of their faith was a result of the word of the apostles. We have that word recorded for us so we really don't have an excuse here.
One might say that it would be easier to 'believe' if we had more signs and wonders (they did) but I'm not convinced that this is the proper foundation for faith. Faith isn't supposed to need external stimuli for it's validation. (Heb 11:1)
Concerning fellowship (bodies of believers, assemblies or Churches if you will)... We certainly fall short in this area. The early Christians seems to have a great advantage here. They had assemblies filled with all segments of society with varying degrees of maturity (i.e. the weak and strong).
The Church and the gifts are even equated with a functioning human body in 1Cor 12-14. If we take the analogy and apply it to the functioning of the gifts one could make a pretty good case for saying that an isolated arm is useless without being attached to a body and then say that the gifts aren't going to 'work' unless they are attached in some way to an assembly of believers.
One could argue that while one is presently unattached to a healthy functioning body we are still attached to the Head and therefore we, at least theoretically, have the power to do some things... since we still derive life from the Head. The quality of life might not mirror what we see in the NT but it is life nonetheless, however handicapped.
That would go a long way in explaining our current predicament... if that is the reason.
So where does that leave us?
So far as I can tell we have a couple of options based upon the clear instructions given by Jesus in: Mat 28:17-20, Mk 16:15-20, and Acts 1:8.
1) We can assume that the gospel has been preached and we can attach ourselves to a group of believers already in existence and pray that the body will begin to heal and become effective as an assembly of the Lord, or...
2) We can assume that the gospel has not been preached and do what Jesus instructs: Go and preach, starting with 'Jerusalem' (or as I take it --wherever we find ourselves--our hometown) and then branch out to other areas.
To sum it up, we are called to 1) have faith in God, 2) follow Jesus by taking up our cross daily (crucified life), 3) find a group of believers or preach until we have a group of believers.
Ask yourself the question, what are the clearest and most unambiguous commands of Jesus? Love God, Love our neighbor, and preach what we've heard. Who knows, maybe that is what is hindering the signs and wonders in our modern times.
I hesitate to paint the whole problem with the broad brush of sin, or the lack of consecration and/or faith, (which may actually be the problem... I hope not, at least not among us!) especially since we have those clearly defined commands presented to us by Jesus Himself.
These commands become even more poignant when we think of them as the very ones that the early Church took to heart and turned the world upside down!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9258 is a reply to message #9257] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 15:21 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| william wrote on Mon, 14 January 2013 00:22 |
Concerning fellowship (bodies of believers, assemblies or Churches if you will)... We certainly fall short in this area. The early Christians seems to have a great advantage here. They had assemblies filled with all segments of society with varying degrees of maturity (i.e. the weak and strong).
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Yes, it always comes back to this,(at least for me) sometimes I long for fellowship to the point of tears. I am so thankful for the 'fellowship' we have on this forum, but it doesn't replace the interaction and body ministry that we so need. btw, William, you are so gifted at being able to articulate and bring into focus things that should be obivious to a Christian, yet sometimes our/my vision gets blurred a bit. Thank you once again for your contribution, both with providing us with this medium of communication and the fundamentally sound wisdom you share. I wish more people would avail themselves of this opportunity to contribute the wisdom God has given them to others, but for whatever the reason so many don't. Like Gillyann said the other day, iron does sharpen iron and there is a wealth of information and scriptural wisdom on this website.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9259 is a reply to message #9258] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 18:26 |
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william
Messages: 1462
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Well, I appreciate your kind words James but it was your post that got the ball rolling. This question (where is the Lord God of Elijah? <grin>) is one that is often repeated not only here but by Christians everywhere. Jman (where art thou bro?) has done his share in bringing these things front and center as well.
I was listening yesterday to a sermon that mentioned the great commission passage in Mat 28 and what jumped out to me was the clarity of the command. I don't see it as optional for us. In the past this passage has been used to motivate a missionary mindset with the intent that people would leave the comfort of their pews and go to China, or some other mission field. But when you couple that mandate with the one in Acts 1:8 that highlights the importance of being baptized with the Holy Spirit first and then starting in Jerusalem... before moving into the rest of the world... then it seems to me that we've got to start at that point. The early Church started there and then branched out in ever-increasing circles with their message of the gospel and the signs and wonders followed just like Jesus said they would (Mark 16).
I don't know if that is the answer but if something is wrong or not working then it seems intuitive that we need to get back to the basics. Maybe I like the answer because it is so simple!
We can't work up the signs, that is God's part, so if we aren't seeing the signs then maybe the answer is --we aren't following the model.
I'm certainly not diminishing the importance of first having a personal relationship defined by having faith in God and the crucified life because the disciples were schooled by Jesus in these areas before they were given the commission. But consider this: there wasn't much of a delay between the time that they grasped the purpose of Jesus, until they received the Holy Spirit and begin to put the commission command into practice. (He explained the plan using the Scriptures after the resurrection Luke 24:25-32 on the road to Emmaus and even then it was to only two unnamed disciples!)
Given the short time frame it is unlikely that the disciples had accelerated their faith and deeper-life experiences to the point that this was the factor that determined the great signs and wonders that soon followed.
As I've said before, we all like to find a formula that guarantees success and maybe that is what I've sought to set forth.
Perhaps the answer lies in the sovereignty of God and has nothing to do with some formula of success we are seeking but if it is due to a lack of following the model I think we owe it to ourselves to consider it!
Most of us realize that the artificial distinction between the so-called clergy and laity is not Scriptural but for some reason we shy away from taking up our own personal responsibility in these types of issues. I mean that it is easier for us to blame a 'clergy' even though we don't believe in the concept than to take up the mantle ourselves. If we practice what we preach then the blame (for the lack of signs) either lies in our own unwillingness to take up the mantle or in God's sovereignty. Whatever the reason, ourselves or God, we have nothing to lose by making sure we are doing our part!
I'm rambling here so don't think that I'm referring to you specifically, I'm not. I'm saying the same thing to anyone who will listen!
That said, I welcome anyone who will offer thoughts in this area even if they differ from these.
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Mon, 14 January 2013 23:45]
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9433 is a reply to message #9259] |
Fri, 05 April 2013 14:43 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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Understanding and balancing what is God's work within us through what Jesus did at Calvary (salvation by grace, freely received by faith); with what we're instructed to do that's OUR responsibility...
This is something I believe all Christians have had to come to grips with, understanding what is God's work and what He wants us to take responsibility for.(I must add ALL we do must be done in faith and lead by The Spirit and we can do nothing of ourselves without the empowering of The Holy Spirit) I have struggled with, in the past, understanding the difference between what I am believing God to do in my character/life through Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary, and what and how He expects me to impliment into my daily life concerning "cleansing ourselves"(II Corinthians 7:1); "crucify the flesh" (Gal.5:24); "take up his cross daily"(Matt.16:24); "mortify the deeds of the body" (Rom.8:13); "purifieth himself" (I John3:3)
Anyone want to share the wisdom God has given them on this universal issue that effects everyone to the degree of their willingness to submit in obedience to the will of God, and that being...
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."Luke 9:23
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Crucified Life... [message #9438 is a reply to message #9436] |
Sun, 07 April 2013 13:27 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| Alanbook wrote on Fri, 05 April 2013 14:49 |
...I can only take a day at a time...
Gary
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And there's a song in that too! Kris Kristofferson wrote it back in the 70's.
"One Day at a Time"
One day at a time sweet Jesus
That's all I'm askin' of you
Just give me the strength
To do every day what I have to do
Yesterday's gone sweet Jesus
And tomorrow may never be mine
Lord, help me today, show me the way
One day at a time
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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