Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » Clearing the air on some scriptures
| Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1483] |
Tue, 25 March 2008 23:51  |
 jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Some of you are still in bondage because you are convinced that Hobart Freeman had scriptural support for his "unique" teaching. However, if you apply basic principles of interpretation to many of the passages he used, you find that he got those particular scriptures twisted. Toward the end of his life he did very little real expository teaching. I remember listening to one book series after another, expecting to learn more about those parts of scripture, only to feel empty when it was done because he railed on denominations, doctors and this and that with little exposition of the passage.
Taking scriptures in context goes a long way. Never read just one verse, except in some Proverbs. Verse numbers are not a part of the original Bible, the way that the Lord spoke it out. They were added in the middle ages to help people find passages quicker and memorize them more easily. The chapters and verses can be helpful, but we should never read scripture as just a bunch of verses put together. Each passage is part of a unified whole. Let's look a 5 of them that have been misinterpreted.
I. "The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit." Proverbs 18:21
The only context for a proverb is itself, and in this case the second part of the proverb explains the first. If you love to use your tongue, you will reap what you sow. If you say things to people that bring life to them or yourself, they or you will feel the effects of those life-giving words of encouragement. If you say things that destroy and bring death, they or you will feel the effects of those words. The passage does not say that you have power to magically make things happen by "speaking them into existence". Build people up instead of tearing them down, because people will benefit from that just like they benefit from eating the fruit of a tree.
II. "Do not eat the food of a stingy man, do not crave his delicacies; for he is the kind of man who is always thinking about the cost ('as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he' is the old King James way of translating it). "Eat and drink", he says to you, but his heart is not with you. You will have vomited up the little you have eaten and will have wasted your compliments." (Proverbs 23:6-8)
Many people in the broad spectrum of American Christianity have slaughtered this passage to say that it is talking about positive thinking. Hobart Freeman was one of them. However, when you look at the context of the "man thinks in his heart so is he" passage, you see that he is simply saying that a stingy person is not what he appears to be on the outside, but on the inside. He might say that he wants to offer you food, but what he thinks in his heart about the situation determines that he is not really generous, but stingy. It has nothing to do with psyching yourself out about healing or building your self-esteem. There is place for having good self-esteem in Christ, but this passage does not teach anything about "positive thinking". Take the passage in context.
III. "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we are saved." (Romans 8:18-24a)
What a wonderful passage! Conversely, what distortion was taught about it! Paul is not referring to some elite group of super spiritual "manifested sons". He is talking about all Christians, all those who are saved. All those who are children of God (vs. 21). I remember a woman who was extremely critical of her children and husband once said to me, "I just want to confess to you, Jae, that I am an overcomer (and one of the manifested sons)." My response-- stop trying to be super Christian and focus on being simply a Christian, a follower of Jesus. Following Him is tough enough without trying to add some elite believer status to it.
IV. "But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come..." (I Corinthians 15:20-24)
Awesome passage! Clearly from the context we can see that Christ himself is the firstfruits, not some elite group of Christians. It is nearly heresy to call the "firstfruits rapture" some pre-rapture event in which a group of super Christians goes to be with the Lord before the rest of them, because Christ is the firstfruits, and we could never take His place. Don't be thrown off by those who point out that there is no punctuation in koine Greek, and therefore therefore the verse should read like a list of the order of events. There is nothing that forces us to believe that it should read like that. On the other hand, the context forces us to believe that the firstfruits is Christ himself. No firstfruits rapture. Just the rapture of all believers.
V. "...for by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith that God has given you. Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. --Romans 12:3-5
I can remember as a teenager commenting to someone that maybe certain persons were not given the faith to believe God for a certain healing. He quoted this passage to assert that "God has given to everyone a measure of faith", meaning that there was no exuse for this loser who wasn't healed (that was the attitude). However, this passage is talking about the fact that God gives us faith to function in various capacities in the church, and we all need each other. One part of the body is not more important than another. It has nothing to do with the meaning that HF and that guy attributed to it.
More scriptures to discuss in the future.
[Updated on: Wed, 26 March 2008 01:33]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1486 is a reply to message #1483] |
Wed, 26 March 2008 05:13  |
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william
Messages: 1462
Registered: January 2006 |
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You quote Proverbs 18:21 and then indict Hobart Freeman, saying that he taught the following:
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The passage does not say that you have power to magically make things happen by "speaking them into existence".
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I saw this stuff over on your blog and I quickly came to the conclusion that you didn't really understand the message taught at Faith Assembly.
Brother Freeman never taught positive confession as a standalone doctrine. He carefully taught that the foundation for a positive confession was 2-fold. First our hearts had to be changed. This was to be accomplished in the believer's life by a study of the Word of God. The Word of God reveals our position in Christ, and our inheritance in Christ. These great and glorious promises become ours in a manner not unlike our initial faith in Jesus-- believe on the Lord, and then confession is made... unto salvation.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Until we actually see or hear the promises, we cannot have faith in those promises.
The second foundation for a positive confession is an embracing of those promises, by faith. A simple knowledge of God’s promises doesn’t save a person. Until the person embraces the promise and appropriates it by faith, he will never be saved.
Once a person embraces a promise, like salvation, or healing, or deliverance, then, and only then, is it appropriate for confession to be made unto salvation (or healing, or deliverance.) Hence to imply that this "confession" somehow "magically causes these things to come into existence,” misses entirely the message that Hobart taught. First there has to be a changed heart!
For some odd reason you put the confession part as point #1, and the heart part as #2, which has it exactly backwards. This may indicate something deeper, but for now I'll just assume that you are giving us these points in more or less random fashion.
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II. "Do not eat the food of a stingy man, do not crave his delicacies; for he is the kind of man who is always thinking about the cost ('as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he' is the old King James way of translating it). "Eat and drink", he says to you, but his heart is not with you. You will have vomited up the little you have eaten and will have wasted your compliments." (Proverbs 23:6-8)
Many people in the broad spectrum of American Christianity have slaughtered this passage to say that it is talking about positive thinking. Hobart Freeman was one of them. However, when you look at the context of the "man thinks in his heart so is he" passage, you see that he is simply saying that a stingy person is not what he appears to be on the outside, but on the inside. He might say that he wants to offer you food, but what he thinks in his heart about the situation determines that he is not really generous, but stingy. It has nothing to do with psyching yourself out about healing or building your self-esteem. There is place for having good self-esteem in Christ, but this passage does not teach anything about "positive thinking". Take the passage in context.
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I confess that I really don't get your point here, unless you are somehow trying to separate what a person thinks from what is in his heart? What he thinks, is his heart and his heart is what he thinks. Rotten thoughts = rotten heart. Rotten heart = rotten thoughts. As he thinks, so he is. As he is, so he thinks.
Brother Freeman taught that our thinker, (our hearts) could be changed by a diet that consisted of the Word of God. I don't see how this "slaughters" the text?
Once the heart is changed, by the Word of God,(NOT BY THINKING!!!), the man literally becomes what he thinks. If he doesn't think he's saved, then he probably isn't. If he doesn't think he is healed, he probably isn't. If he doesn't think he is delivered, he probably isn't.
You mentioned that you deal with mentally ill patients. How do you go about helping them?
For example, let's assume that a homeless person finds his way to your office... he is suffering from depression. Now you may just prescribe some drugs and be done with it, I don't know, but if you actually try to talk to this person, what do you tell him?
He feels worthless, no confidence, no prospects, nothing. Do you not try to change his thinking? (...as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.) Isn't that the first thing you try to do? Don't you try to explain to him that as a human being he has potential, and that since we are all created in the image of God, his view of himself is unfounded?
Okay, now let’s say, he gets up to leave and he is still thinking of himself pretty much like he did when he first came into your office (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he), nothing has changed, his thinking and his confession are exactly the same as before he stumbled in... Wouldn’t you say that your efforts had been pretty much in vain?
On the other hand, what if he jumps up and says- "You know what? You are right!" "God does love me!" "My grandmother always said I would be a preacher!" "Can you point me to a good local Church?" (as a man thinketh in his heart...).
Now, what has happened? A superficial observer might say, "Why, his confession has changed!" Well, his confession did change but the reality of the situation can only be explained by seeing that his thinking changed, and his confession followed. He lined his thinking (his heart) up with what you were trying to tell him, which hopefully came from the Word of God.
Brother, that is the only way that person could be helped. Supernatural? Maybe. Magical? No.
That in a nutshell is what brother Freeman taught about positive thinking and confession... it begins with a change of heart and ends with the mouth agreeing with what God says about the situation.
Either you misunderstood the message, or it was misrepresented to you.
I'll try to get around to your third point later...
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1487 is a reply to message #1483] |
Wed, 26 March 2008 18:33 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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Jae,
Like Mulder stated, I'm not sure I understand your first two points and what your argument is.
I do, however, agree with your 3rd and 4th point. I have stated several times on this website and on the FactNet that I never understood how HEF could make a distinction between Christians and super-Christians (overcomers). I believe that Christians, by their very nature, are overcomers. If you are not an overcomer, then you are not a Christian.
As for the "first-fruits" reference from Corinthians, I agree. The passage is speaking of the resurrection of Jesus. He was the first to be resurrected into a glorified body. (This distinguishes him from Lazarus or the others that were raised from the dead.) Just as he was resurrected into a glorified body, so to will we be raised into glorified bodies. He was the first fruits, we are next. Seems pretty simple to me.
I also heard HEF preach on the 144,000 as being this group of "overcomers." I would have to disagree, because Revelation goes into great detail to describe this group as the nation of Israel.
I could go on, because this has been one of my biggest "pet peeves" with the teaching of HEF. People began to take this concept of "overcomer" and use it as a source of pride. It was this pride that led people in the congregation to put enormous peer pressure on others to confirm to their idea of what an "overcomer" really was.
None of us are worthy to even unlace the sandals of Jesus, so how anyone could take pride in being an "overcomer" is beyond me. All the references to "overcometh" in Revelation refer to salvation, not some extra-heaping-helping of heavenly goodies.
Let me conclude by saying that I have NO problem with the term "overcomer." It is the name of this site, and if used in context, I am in full agreement. If we are saved, then we are overcomers.
What I do have a problem with is people who use the term to elevate their own standing in the kingdom of heaven. It becomes a discussion like the disciples had with Jesus about which of them would be the "greatest in heaven." Jesus stated in Matthew 18 that if you "humbled yourself as a little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
God bless,
Duncan
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1488 is a reply to message #1487] |
Wed, 26 March 2008 20:27 |
DeWayne
Messages: 82
Registered: August 2006 |
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I think the NT clearly suggests that there will be differences in those who make it. There will be the least and the greatest. There will be a full reward which suggests that there will be lesser rewards. There will be rulers, so they will have to rule over others. Hundred, sixty, thirty suggests differences.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
2 John 1:8
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Rev 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Matt 13
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1491 is a reply to message #1483] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 03:44 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Moulder, I appreciate your optimistic attitude toward a man that you obviously respect. You are a clear thinker. I think that maybe you are naive or might have difficulty looking at his teaching completely objectively. His "official" teaching expressed in his books was not always reflected by his sermons every week, especially later in his ministry. A couple of thoughts in response:
"Brother Freeman never taught positive confession as a standalone doctrine. He carefully taught that the foundation for a positive confession was 2-fold. First our hearts had to be changed. This was to be accomplished in the believer's life by a study of the Word of God. The Word of God reveals our position in Christ, and our inheritance in Christ. These great and glorious promises become ours in a manner not unlike our initial faith in Jesus-- believe on the Lord, and then confession is made... unto salvation."
I wish that it was true that he was as balanced as you said. Some of his earlier teaching was probably more balanced. However, his approach to confession morphed and changed over time and became a magic word mentality. He would never have called it that, but that's what happened. He warned people not to "confess things on themselves" as if we were able to make things happen just because we said they would. "Life and death..." became a basis for superstition about your words. His positive confession book might have had some balance, but his every week teaching on faith and confession was full of that superstition.
"Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Awesome passage. Note that the "message of faith" that Paul talked about had to do with heralding the Good News to the world that Jesus is Lord and is risen from the dead. The phrase "message of faith" did not refer to some end-time idea about claiming healing and prosperity. It was actually the early faith teachers such as Kenyon or Hagin who used that phrase to apply to their particular theology about faith, and Hobart got it from them.
"Hence to imply that this "confession" somehow "magically causes these things to come into existence,” misses entirely the message that Hobart taught. First there has to be a changed heart!"
Agreed. The heart has to change. No question about that. But that is not issue. My point was that "life and death are in the power of the tongue" was taught in such a way as to breed a superstition about our words.
"I confess that I really don't get your point here, unless you are somehow trying to separate what a person thinks from what is in his heart? What he thinks, is his heart and his heart is what he thinks. Rotten thoughts = rotten heart. Rotten heart = rotten thoughts. As he thinks, so he is. As he is, so he thinks."
Again, my point is simply that the verse does not mean what he said that it means. Passages such as Matthew 12:33-35 teach clearly the relationship between what we think in the heart and who we are. We don't need to try to twist the Proverbs passage in order to get people to think Biblically. The term "positive confession" is not found in scripture, as you know. A better term might be "Biblical thinking and confession."
"Brother Freeman taught that our thinker, (our hearts) could be changed by a diet that consisted of the Word of God. I don't see how this "slaughters" the text?" Because he quoted it out of context. That passage does not mean what he said it did. We are obligated to rightly divide the Word of truth.
"Once the heart is changed, by the Word of God,(NOT BY THINKING!!!), the man literally becomes what he thinks. If he doesn't think he's saved, then he probably isn't. If he doesn't think he is healed, he probably isn't. If he doesn't think he is delivered, he probably isn't."
Sometimes people go through times of doubt in which they question their salvation. That does not mean they are not saved. You are not always what you think. You are what God says you are regardless of how well you perceive it.
"You mentioned that you deal with mentally ill patients. How do you go about helping them?
For example, let's assume that a homeless person finds his way to your office... he is suffering from depression. Now you may just prescribe some drugs and be done with it (FYI, I don't prescribe the medications; that's a psychiatrist's job; I do a lot of listening, counseling and problem-solving) I don't know, but if you actually try to talk to this person, what do you tell him?
He feels worthless, no confidence, no prospects, nothing. Do you not try to change his thinking? (...as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.) Isn't that the first thing you try to do? It's not the first thing I do, usually. Most of the time they are hurting and in despair and wonder if they are ever going to be normal. I give them a shoulder to cry on before offering my own input. Then, yes, sometimes I can help them change their thinking by offering them hope. Faith starts with hope, and they can't exercise faith without it. Don't you try to explain to him that as a human being he has potential, and that since we are all created in the image of God, his view of himself is unfounded? Yes, I point people back to the image of God frequently.
"Okay, now let’s say, he gets up to leave and he is still thinking of himself pretty much like he did when he first came into your office (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he), nothing has changed, his thinking and his confession are exactly the same as before he stumbled in... Wouldn’t you say that your efforts had been pretty much in vain? It depends. It takes a while for a person like that to get into a position to understand or believe much of anything. You have to be patient. On the other hand, what if he jumps up and says- "You know what? You are right!" "God does love me!" "My grandmother always said I would be a preacher!" "Can you point me to a good local Church?" (as a man thinketh in his heart...).
Now, what has happened? A superficial observer might say, "Why, his confession has changed!" Well, his confession did change but the reality of the situation can only be explained by seeing that his thinking changed, and his confession followed. He lined his thinking (his heart) up with what you were trying to tell him, which hopefully came from the Word of God." Changing thinking helps, yes, but that is not what the passage is saying.
Brother, that is the only way that person could be helped. Supernatural? Maybe. Magical? No. Certainly not magical, but when HF tells us that confession brings possession, he is essentially making it into magic words. When someone says, "I don't have a cold" and snot is running out of his nose, he is in denial. Scripture never tells us to be in denial of reality. However, right in the faith book HF stated that he does not take insulin because he does not have diabetes, and therefore implied that a person with diabetes who prayed for healing suddenly does not have diabetes and does not need to take insulin. Ironically, HF apparently died of complications from diabetes (correct me if I'm wrong here). It's too bad. It did not have to happen.
That in a nutshell is what brother Freeman taught about positive thinking and confession... it begins with a change of heart and ends with the mouth agreeing with what God says about the situation. I wish that was really the nutshell, but it became much more complicated than that. Add to that the fact that we do not know exactly what God says about every situation involving healing or prosperity. Even Wigglesworth did not pray for everyone. He knew that sometimes the Lord was not going to heal certain people.
Either you misunderstood the message, or it was misrepresented to you. Moulder, you might be right. Maybe I misunderstood it. But I doubt it. I know what I heard and read. If I still had my tapes from those days I would research it and identify some quotes for you. However, we all heard plenty of confession talk ("I confess such and such") that was based on the confession brings possession teaching. Certainly you were aware of that mentality in our midst, and HF's teaching on confession (which he admitted he first heard from Hagin) fostered that mentality.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1506 is a reply to message #1492] |
Sat, 29 March 2008 02:57 |
believer 1
Messages: 12
Registered: March 2008
Location: Australia |
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| DeWayne wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 02:15 |
not believing much of anything other than salvation. He was a guardian of God's Word, and he did it well! He died like he preached, trusting God. I've not known any other teacher like him.
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We shouldn't think so lightly about the salvation message because if we don't have it then we are lost! Deosn't matter how long you have walked with the Lord or what truths you hold about faith for healing, or faith to prophecy, or faith to speek in tongues etc. If you don't have salvation then your lost!. It's important. I believe our salvation is our first love.
In Revelation 2:4 the church is rebuked because they left their first love. If they didn't repent then that church was going to be removed. As I feel took place with FA.
I remember when I was first saved I couldn't get enough of Jesus and His Word. My life was simple and it was about salvation. It was about trusting Him, it was about looking to Him to lead me and looking to Him to guide me. But then I took my eyes of Him (didn't realise it at the time) and got entagled with legalism and looked to a man and his teachings.
I thought I must behave a certain way and it must be the way Dr Freeman taught (especially as it related to faith for healing) but there were other things I thought I must do such as, not borrow money, not wear jeans etc etc. We have to be careful that our experience of a so called "deeper teaching" doesn't rob us of our 1st Love, Jesus. Isn't that what salvation is all about.
I have been challenged by my God to think back to my first love and how it was. What did I do? How did I feel? I know what it was like for me.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1525 is a reply to message #1498] |
Sun, 30 March 2008 02:49 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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DeWayne said, "It's not magic, it's God's Word.
Mk 11:23
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith."
DeWayne, there is a difference between telling a mountain to move and stating that you don't have diabetes when in fact you do. If my daughter has sudden severe headache right before being baptized and does not feel like she can go to the lake to get baptized, I will tell the headache (and whatever is causing it) to be removed per what Jesus told us in the passage you quoted. That is different than saying, "My daughter does not have a headache" to my neighbor, thinking that she will somehow not be healed unless I deny that it exists. That mentality was not Jesus' intent. However, that mentality was the fruit of Hobart Freeman's overemphasis on this passage to the neglect of others.
[Updated on: Sun, 30 March 2008 02:49]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1526 is a reply to message #1510] |
Sun, 30 March 2008 02:59 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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DeWayne said, "Who's taking the salvation message lightly? Certainly not I. It sounds like you don't know that healing is promised in the Bible to Christians by the same God who promised salvation to those turn to Jesus."
God has promised salvation and healing, and the terms are sometimes used together in scripture. However, the salvation of men's souls by reconciling to God through the work of Christ is emphasized much more throughout scripture. It is a major theme in the entire message of scripture. Healing of the body is not unimportant, but it is not nearly as important as being reconciled to God.
I want to shout it to all pastors and teachers and churches and ministries! WE ARE CALLED TO EMPHASIZE WHAT THE BIBLE EMPHASIZES. WE DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM TO MAKE UP OUR OWN EMPHASIS AND DOWNPLAY WHAT GOD HAS TAUGHT US IS IMPORTANT! It does not matter if the builders are building houses without windows. We have to bring them back to the foundations the way the Lord does in scripture. HEF became ensnared by his emphasis on faith for healing and neglected the weightier matters, hence the unnecessary bondage that developed.
[Updated on: Sun, 30 March 2008 03:00]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1527 is a reply to message #1488] |
Sun, 30 March 2008 03:12 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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I think the NT clearly suggests that there will be differences in those who make it. There will be the least and the greatest. There will be a full reward which suggests that there will be lesser rewards. There will be rulers, so they will have to rule over others. Hundred, sixty, thirty suggests differences.
Ah, yes, I remember that teaching. Some will bear more fruit than others. There will be some rewards on judgment day. All of that is true. However, none of these passages teaches that there is some elite higher status of Christians who will do a bunch of miracles and then be raptured before the other believers because they are higher ranking than them. When we stand before the Lord, we will tell him that we are unworthy servants who just did our duty. All true believers are completely cleansed and reconciled to God and fully His children. He does not love some children any more than another any more than we love some of our children more than another. We had better not.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1531 is a reply to message #1530] |
Sun, 30 March 2008 04:08 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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DeWayne said, "Do you think Jesus was "ensnared" too? He did a LOT of healing. Doesn't sound like you really believe God's healing promises are true. Was Jesus in "bondage" because he went about healing those who were oppressed by the Devil? There's a lot of healing in the New Testament, and lots of healing promises. Are they not important?"
Jesus healed many people, and He has commissioned the church to continue His work by the power of the Holy Spirit. But it still does not compare to the primary emphasis of scripture- redemption and reconciliation with God, advancing His kingdom, etc... HEF emphasized healing too much, certainly much more than scripture emphasized it. Healing will last while we live here on earth (sometimes), but the salvation of our souls and glorified bodies will last for eternity. One reason why Jesus told people to keep quiet after he healed them was because he wanted people to focus on His message of the kingdom, that He is God and the Lord was going to use Him to provide redemption from sin instead of trying to keep the law in order to do so. There were plenty of street healers in the Roman empire at the time. Jesus did not want people to confuse Him as another street healer. He wanted them to see that much more important matters were at stake than healing. You would never guess this from HEF's later ministry, especially the last 5 years or so, in which he emphasized healing far more than he should have.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1532 is a reply to message #1531] |
Sun, 30 March 2008 04:11 |
DeWayne
Messages: 82
Registered: August 2006 |
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| jisamazed wrote on Sat, 29 March 2008 22:08 |
DeWayne said, "Do you think Jesus was "ensnared" too? He did a LOT of healing. Doesn't sound like you really believe God's healing promises are true. Was Jesus in "bondage" because he went about healing those who were oppressed by the Devil? There's a lot of healing in the New Testament, and lots of healing promises. Are they not important?"
Jesus healed many people, and He has commissioned the church to continue His work by the power of the Holy Spirit. But it still does not compare to the primary emphasis of scripture- redemption and reconciliation with God, advancing His kingdom, etc... HEF emphasized healing too much, certainly much more than scripture emphasized it. Healing will last while we live here on earth (sometimes), but the salvation of our souls and glorified bodies will last for eternity. One reason why Jesus told people to keep quiet after he healed them was because he wanted people to focus on His message of the kingdom, that He is God and the Lord was going to use Him to provide redemption from sin instead of trying to keep the law in order to do so. There were plenty of street healers in the Roman empire at the time. Jesus did not want people to confuse Him as another street healer. He wanted them to see that much more important matters were at stake than healing. You would never guess this from HEF's later ministry, especially the last 5 years or so, in which he emphasized healing far more than he should have.
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Do you believe God promised healing to Christians?
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1534 is a reply to message #1532] |
Sun, 30 March 2008 19:33 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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DeWayne said, "Do you believe God promised healing to Christians?"
Of course I do. I live accordingly. I do not try to tell God how to heal me. I only ask Him to do so and believe that he will. I also pray for others who are sick. God promised healing to his people. He did not emphasize it in scripture like HEF did, but he did promise it. HEF emphasized the prayer and faith and healing to an extreme later in his ministry, and thus neglected other parts of scripture. Thankfully, he was more balanced than a lot of other faith teachers regarding trials. He did not disregard the hardships of life and acknowledged that God uses trials of our faith to make us more like Jesus. Somewhere in his ministry he developed this doctors=occult mentality and taught "deeper deliverance and discernment" and told people to take themselves through deliverance if they ever walked into a doctor's office. Thus he added to scripture and put people into bondage. He was never able to admit that sometimes the Lord does not heal people when they ask in faith. It would have put a monkey wrench in his theology if he did, so he never went there.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1535 is a reply to message #1534] |
Sun, 30 March 2008 21:06 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
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Jisamazed wrote: (I do not try to tell God how to heal me)
I agree with that 100 %
I let God tell me thru his Word, how to heal me !
Ps 91:14-16 God said: 6 times (I Will)do something.
If you dwell in the secret place of the most High
Ps 103:1-5 ---heals All my diseases !
Ps 107:15-20 sent His Word(not the doctor)to heal Me.
Ex 15:26 -I AM the Lord That Heals thee !
Ex 23:25-I will take sickness away from the midst of thee!
Mk 11:22-25 Have Faith in God !
Jas 5:13-16 call for the elders(not the doctors)!
I am so happy that God has shown what His will is for me.
Isa 53: Who has believed our report ?
What report ?
Atonement for the whole person....Body ...Soul & Spirit..
Regeneration of the Whole Person.....
Ron
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1536 is a reply to message #1483] |
Mon, 31 March 2008 13:22 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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This is a good dialogue here. I totally agree with you jisamazed. (I do not try to tell God how to heal me). It seems like this dialogue has come up in a number of locations on this site. HEALING
We have James 5 to stand on – call on the elders - if there be any SICK.
So how do we define sickness. We also live under the affects of the Fall.
Is there promises that apply?
Yes, Doctors were very mystical up until recent times where it has become more of a science. When it comes to sickness today in many ways they still are and will tell you that in not so many words.
Apart from that it is a science they are practicing and have much more knowledge about the body than I do. Would I recommend an individual to seek out medical help. No. Would I attempt to prevent them from going to Doctors by promoting a spirit of FEAR. NO. We know the origins of this – Don’t WE????
Luke was a physician, yet I do not see in scripture where God speaks against medical science and Doctors. Against Mystics, soothsayers ect, but not against medical science. I would hate to attempt to count the number of messages I heard against the medical profession.
Also how much of our lives today are the direct result of medical science and their understanding? Hygiene, diet, ect, or should we fashion our lives as the Amish and reject all things that are modern?
I believe this was mentioned earlier. Diabetes, is this a sickness that would fall under James 5? Or is this a result of the fall with the issue of various organs of the body failing due to the fall?
I think that much of the negatism that has been promoted, against medical science, was done to dethrone them as deity figures as they are held in the hearts of many. This is very understandable but there should be a limit to it and the need can’t be stressed enough to allow the Holy Sprit to do His ministry. By the promotion of fear I think we all can relate to the results.
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1540 is a reply to message #1536] |
Wed, 02 April 2008 01:34 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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JRS wrote
Luke was a physician, yet I do not see in scripture where God speaks against medical science and Doctors. Against Mystics, soothsayers ect, but not against medical science. I would hate to attempt to count the number of messages I heard against the medical profession.
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Brother, the only thing I oppose, is when anyone says that God uses Medical Science as a substitute for The Blood that Jesus
shed on the Cross for my Healing & Salvation .
Like the woman with the issue of blood, I suffered many things at the hands of Medical Science. For 20 some years, I
suffered with Cluster Headaches for 2 hours every day of my life. My whole world would shut down until they were over.The
pain was so intense, that banging my head on the concrete floor felt pretty good. I went thru test after test after test...no help !
I took so many experimental drugs at the time, its a wonder that I have I mind left. But nothing helped ! Matter of fact, many
times the pain got worse.
Then I came into the knowledge of Jesus Christ as my Lord, A short time after Salvation I came into the knowledge of Jesus
Christ as my Healer......That was before I even heard of The Glory Barn or Faith Assembly.....I found it in the Word of God.
Do I have to tell ya the rest of the Story ? Yes....Totally Healed...Praise Jesus !
If Medical Science is Gods gift to us........Why does it cost so much ? I thought the Gift was Free ?!
Freely you have received, Freely give ! I don't suppose any of you out there charge a fee, when you lay hands on the sick,
do you ?
Ref Luke the physician:
The primary job of the physician in the Old & New Testaments, was to bind up wounds an prepare the Body for Burial......
I think I'll stick with Jesus as My Physician.....He came to prepare me for Life, not for Burial.
Ron
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1541 is a reply to message #1492] |
Wed, 02 April 2008 02:44 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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DeWayne wrote, "Dr. Freeman was often quite stern in his teachings because if he wasn't he'd just end up like nearly all other churches, not believing much of anything other than salvation. I've not known any other teacher like him."
That sounds like classic Freeman talk, DeWayne! Nearly all other churches are not believing anything other than salvation? Isolation breeds ignorance. You really need to get out more and get more exposure to what God is doing in His church around the world. There are many saints who put all of us to shame with their faith and dedication. For them, it is not about claiming healing or things. It is about how to witness to their jailmates effectively because the secret police threw them in there for preaching the gospel.
"He was a guardian of God's Word, and he did it well!" I would say he taught some of the word well. He was an excellent theology teacher, and some of his surveys were helpful. However, he neglected entire swaths of scripture, such as those that command us to take care of the poor.
"He died like he preached, trusting God." Maybe. We don't know what was in his heart, do we? We are not omniscient. He himself said that no one dies in faith, and he seemed to judge others who died after they prayed for healing. Jesus said that we will be judged in the same way that we judge others. I don't know if that is what happened to Hobart or not, but it is a little presumptuous to automatically assume that he really had faith just because he preached on it.
"I've not known any other teacher like him." There are plenty of excellent Bible teachers and pastors out there who are better teachers and more balanced than HEF. Many of them are pastors of small or medium churches who have no notariety, but can expound the Word with clarity and anointing.
[Updated on: Wed, 02 April 2008 02:45]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1543 is a reply to message #1540] |
Wed, 02 April 2008 13:20 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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| JWBTI wrote on Tue, 01 April 2008 19:34 |
JRS wrote
Luke was a physician, yet I do not see in scripture where God speaks against medical science and Doctors. Against Mystics, soothsayers ect, but not against medical science. I would hate to attempt to count the number of messages I heard against the medical profession.
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Brother, the only thing I oppose, is when anyone says that God uses Medical Science as a substitute for The Blood that Jesus
shed on the Cross for my Healing & Salvation .
Ref Luke the physician:
The primary job of the physician in the Old & New Testaments, was to bind up wounds an prepare the Body for Burial......
I think I'll stick with Jesus as My Physician.....He came to prepare me for Life, not for Burial.
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I would oppose that also. There is NO substitution for the precious Blood of Jesus.
For Salvation or Healing.
In James 5 we have a direct promise of healing for sickness.
I ask this then, would a broken bone or large cut fall under this promise. I do not see these as sickness’s and fall under our own responsibility of how to handle them. Not to say God couldn’t heal and restore miraculously. This is where we need guidance promised to us by the Holy Spirit.
I disagree with the fear that has been generated about going to a Doctor.
We extrapolate that Medical Science is evil because the promise of healing for our sickness’s. Scripture does speak against witchcraft and sorcery ect which was the center of medical understanding not too long ago.
Too say that Science falls into these categories shows a lack of understanding for what science actually is.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1544 is a reply to message #1543] |
Thu, 03 April 2008 00:28 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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JRS WROTE:
I ask this then, would a broken bone or large cut fall under this promise. I do not see these as sickness’s and fall under our own responsibility of how to handle them. Not to say God couldn’t heal and restore miraculously. This is where we need guidance promised to us by the Holy Spirit.
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I would say yes to our own responsibility : Be it unto thee according to your faith......
I have seen by my own hands, the power of God heal broken bones instantly with 2 of my children.
I have had my own hand broken an God restored it whole in 5 days.
I had two other children end up in the hospital with broken bones & plaster on there legs...Be it, my lack of faith an or
lack of proper fellowship in the Lord....(I speak only for myself at this point.)
I've also seen large cuts & blood pouring out of the body, healed by the laying on of hands an Faith in Gods Word.
The Holy Spirit will show us what to do, when are minds are centered on Jesus Christ an His Words.
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JRS WROTE:
I disagree with the fear that has been generated about going to a Doctor.
We extrapolate that Medical Science is evil because the promise of healing for our sickness’s. Scripture does speak against witchcraft and sorcery ect which was the center of medical understanding not too long ago.
Too say that Science falls into these categories shows a lack of understanding for what science actually is.
Ref Medical Science: They do the best they can an thats Good !
My desire is to Trust God an Him alone....By His Grace & Mercy.
I fault No one, for seeking thier help.......I just encourage all of us to Trust God in all that we do !
Ron
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1545 is a reply to message #1544] |
Thu, 03 April 2008 20:28 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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Yes - I have had the privilege of experiencing many examples of God’s healing power also. Broken hand, broken foot, piece of brass in my eye that led into an infection by the next day, and was miraculously healed on the forth day, are a few. This consequently opened up a chance to witness to a few co-workers, because of my recovery was so quick.
In each one of these examples I find no direct promise in scripture for healing.
JWBTI WROTE;
I had two other children end up in the hospital with broken bones & plaster on there legs...Be it, my lack of faith an or lack of proper fellowship in the Lord....(I speak only for myself at this point.)
You say, - Be it, my lack of faith an or lack of proper fellowship in the Lord” –
My question is - Why does it have to fall into either one of these categories? How quick we are to set blame (judge) on what we would observe as failure. Are we not of the same mind-set of the disciples in questioning Jesus about the man born blind??? John 9 – Either towards ourselves or others?
We take scriptures – be unto thee according to your faith. Thy faith has made you whole. And evaluate the results of others and ourselves. Are we using our preconceived notions of what things should be like, to evaluate our lives?
Where does the sovereignty of God come in?
I can relate examples of broken bones.
---Healing manifested instantly after prayer.
---Prayed and the one with the broken leg remained immobilized for almost 6 weeks.
They later related it was a much needed time for prayer and rest.
---And another sought medical attention and had a cast applied.
To seek help from the Doctor, is it sin??? I would have to answer that NO and then at the same time I would say Yes, it could be.
We do need to seek guidance from the Holy Spirit in all things. This I believe to be the number 1 fault of Asa in II Chronicles 16. As it says – he sought not the Lord----- Yes, I agree with the translating of “magic healers” as jisamazed pointed out in another post.
Jim
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1551 is a reply to message #1545] |
Fri, 04 April 2008 12:20 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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JRS WROTE:
You say,- Be it, my lack of faith an or lack of proper fellowship in the Lord” –(I speak only for myself at this point.)
My question is - Why does it have to fall into either one of these categories?
How quick we are to set blame (judge) on what we would observe as failure. Are we not of the same mind-set of the disciples in questioning Jesus about the man born blind??? John 9 – Either towards ourselves or others?
We take scriptures – be unto thee according to your faith. Thy faith has made you whole. And evaluate the results of others and ourselves. Are we using our preconceived notions of what things should be like, to evaluate our lives?
Bro Jim:
I 'am I wrong for using this as a guide line for myself, when I feel that I've missed it ?
Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Where is Gods sovereignty in this ? The disciples missed it. Jesus rebuked them, then gave them instruction.
Ron
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1554 is a reply to message #1551] |
Fri, 04 April 2008 16:49 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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JWBTI said, "Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Where is Gods sovereignty in this ? The disciples missed it. Jesus rebuked them, then gave them instruction."
Notice that Jesus did not rebuke the man or his son for their unbelief. He did not blame the person who had the need. He rebuked the disciples for not believing that He could do it. They still were not sure who he was yet at this point. Often this passage was used as a basis for saying, "If the person does not get healed, it is because of their unbelief." Terrible bondage and beat-down for people who were suffering. However, that was not what Jesus was doing. He did not tell us that there must be some problem with us if we are not healed. He only rebuked the disciples who did not take authority over the evil spirit. Don't add to scripture.
I don't know how many people I knew who agonized over their sickness or that of their children, wondering what sin they had in their life or what spirit they needed to cast out. No wonder so many people were depressed. The fact is, some people are sick and are not healed, and it is not because of unbelief or sin in their lives. Sometimes it is, but not always. The "there must be something wrong with me" mentality only produces frustration, depression and a works mindset.
When the Lord heals us, praise Him. If not, praise Him for His goodness anyway. Don't beat yourself or anyone else down if it doesn't happen. Otherwise you become like Job's friends, and the Lord was not happy with the way they judged Job.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1556 is a reply to message #1554] |
Sat, 05 April 2008 01:04 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Bro Jae:
Please do not twist my words An add to what I DID NOT SAY !
As a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, I have the right to judge myself according to this passage.
IF I believe in my heart that I missed it, I am willing to take responsiblity for my own actions an say: I was wrong, rather than
blame God.
Bro you said this: As if to imply; This is what I really meant by what I was saying.
Often this passage was used as a basis for saying, "If the person does not get healed, it is because of their unbelief." Terrible bondage and beat-down for people who were suffering.
Don't beat yourself or anyone else down if it doesn't happen. Otherwise you become like Job's friends, and the Lord was not happy with the way they judged Job.
I didn't use the passage for that purpose, nor did I imply that in any way.
Neither do I beat myself down or judge anyone else at this point.
Ron
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1557 is a reply to message #1556] |
Sat, 05 April 2008 21:15 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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My apologies regarding your comment below. I did not intend to state that you were beating people down or were a Job's friend, but simply that if we take your statement about the passage to it's logical conclusion, then we end up giving the beat-down, whether inadvertantly or on purpose. We all know that it happened on many occasions in the past. I remember after Carl Seitz died, a teacher came up to our church and stated, "He seemed to be really spiritual, but those of us who knew him knew that he did not have the faith when the chips were down." He was trying to justify his idea that if someone does not get healed, there is something wrong on their part. He painted himself into a corner and ended up speaking wrongly about Carl. Your post seemed to imply the same idea, but I give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. 
Love believes all things.
Bro Jae:
Please do not twist my words An add to what I DID NOT SAY !
As a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, I have the right to judge myself according to this passage.
IF I believe in my heart that I missed it, I am willing to take responsiblity for my own actions an say: I was wrong, rather than
blame God. Bro you said this: As if to imply; This is what I really meant by what I was saying.
Often this passage was used as a basis for saying, "If the person does not get healed, it is because of their unbelief." Terrible bondage and beat-down for people who were suffering.
Don't beat yourself or anyone else down if it doesn't happen. Otherwise you become like Job's friends, and the Lord was not happy with the way they judged Job.
I didn't use the passage for that purpose, nor did I imply that in any way.
Neither do I beat myself down or judge anyone else at this point.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1559 is a reply to message #1558] |
Sun, 06 April 2008 05:17 |
DeWayne
Messages: 82
Registered: August 2006 |
Member |
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PLEASE, someone tell me where God told us that he heals through doctors. On the contrary... Have any of you read of the woman with the issue of blood? Guess not. How about King Asa? Guess not. If you read my report on medical mistakes you would have to assume that God judges and chastens by doctors. Did any of you read it?
[Updated on: Sun, 06 April 2008 05:20]
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1561 is a reply to message #1558] |
Sun, 06 April 2008 05:57 |
DeWayne
Messages: 82
Registered: August 2006 |
Member |
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After reading some of the comments here it appears that the doctors are your god. You believe their word rather than God's. If you want to go to the doctor rather than trust in the living God then go ahead, but to say you're trusting the God of the Bible is being dishonest with yourselves. The God of the Bible didn't heal through doctors.
[Updated on: Sun, 06 April 2008 06:44]
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1565 is a reply to message #1559] |
Sun, 06 April 2008 14:01 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
Member |
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| DeWayne wrote on Sat, 05 April 2008 23:17 |
PLEASE, someone tell me where God told us that he heals through doctors. On the contrary... Have any of you read of the woman with the issue of blood? Guess not. How about King Asa? Guess not.
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You are correct – There is no place in scripture where it states that God Heals though Doctors.
Yes I read your report and fully agree with where you are coming from. The issue actually should be for one to understand Doctors and all their training are no more than humans and mistakes are made. The problem is much deeper than promoting a FEAR of Drs. The real issue is in the heart of each individual. That is – How do they look on Drs.? – “Thou shall have no other god’s before me”. King Asa ring a bell here??
Do I promote ones going to Drs. – NO and your statistics are good in revealing all the problems an organization has with man at the center.
At the same time I don’t see a need for believers to center on the same tactics the world promotes to come against something. FEAR. I have a problem, with one promoting the concept that God establishes FEAR in a believers heart. That is what has happened in more cases than not. Is not this the same as what the world uses and is using in the putting down of Faith Assembly. In particular the promotion of all the baby deaths.
Our Lord Jesus is much greater than that.
You ask for a scripture as to where God heals through Drs. I ask where does God give scriptures against them. –
Here is where we need to define things. God does give results and warns against sorcery, magicians, and other things of the occult. No question about this. Is this not the same condition and areas the Doctors are in when attempting to treat sickness’s today, though they wouldn’t say it in so many words.
This is the area we have direct promise we can stand on in scripture. James 5:14
Praise God
Where as other areas of physical problems, ailments are results of the fall and we have no direct promise of healing in scripture. To say God will not heal in these examples would be wrong. To say we can believe God for healing here is wrong also.
| DeWayne wrote on Sat, 05 April 2008 23:17 |
If you read my report on medical mistakes you would have to assume that God judges and chastens by doctors. Did any of you read it?
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Here in is a result of focusing on “medical mistakes”. For one to begin to assume things is a giant step on a slippery slope. If God is judging and/or chastening individuals though the Doctors, as you are assuming here. Then one should repent and God being a loving and Faithful God will lift the chastisement. For if it is not lifted then one would assume that God receives pleasure from the suffering of his servants. This I think NOT.
The Healing message as many have heard it is no more than assumption. FACT – On the cross Jesus bore all our sickness’s. No problem there at all. The problem enters by us ASSUMING that ALL physical ailments are covered here. This is adding to what the scripture is saying. Can God heal all aspects of this body – YES – But we do not have a promise that he will. Instead we have a responsibility to maintain this body, temple. We talk of Healing and Prosperity in the Atonement. YES, FACT. We are Healed – covers sickness. The curse of the Fall and all that accompanies it is NOT. As with prosperity as in the atonement one is commanded to work and the curse is still in place that was applied to Adam.
There are many who WASTE a lot of time and effort in examining themselves because they might not be in what they (preconceived notion) would consider walking in “perfect health”. Yet perfect health should never apply. There have been many the are believing God for physical things that actually they have NO promise to stand on and consequently they are being robbed of there joy. If any individual is examined close and long enough, FAULT will be found. I ask this – Where does it say that this should be our focus??? The Word states, so long as we are in this vessel there is no possibility for perfection. Yes we are to strive and at the same time God knows the very hairs of our head and watches over us. We must come into the rest that God is with us and will guide us and allow the Holy Spirit to fulfill his ministry.
JRS
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| Re: Clearing the air on some scriptures [message #1569 is a reply to message #1483] |
Sun, 06 April 2008 16:41 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
Member |
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Then what is your intent for focusing so much on the statistics of medical failures besides promoting of FEAR. Statistics are what they are, a compiling of information and no more. It’s the emphasis applied to them is the problem. The deaths related to FA are emphasized, and they fail to be fair on presentation of the facts. These statistics both for FA and the Doctors fail to balance out the number of successes in both instances.
Accusing GOD of Lying. Your reaching now. In NO way am I saying the Healing Message is an assumption.
READ CLOSELY PLEASE:---- God has healed us form ALL sickness’s – and promises that in James 5.
IT is MAN”S assumption that GOD has promised us healing for ALL ailments of the body. It is MAN that is presenting a Lie and Not GOD. It is Man that says we can use our FAITH and claim what we want from GOD. How self centered and humanistic can we get. GIMMY, GIMMY, GIMMY, ----- We use verses like MK 11:24 and others and the focus is applied to the natural realm (financial, healing, etc.). How can we be so foolish and be asking for things Jesus has told us- commanded us – to take NO THOUGHT FOR. By desiring and asking I would say that is taking thought. If we are seeking things in the natural – How can we say we have died to self???
God does command us what our desire should be. I Cor 14:1.
Can you show me 1 example or instance of the disciples praying for their physical needs???
God’s Word is forever settled in heaven and all is Yes and Amen. He is not a man that he should lie – He has spoken and shall make it Good.
We are the earthly vessels, it is man that perverts and distorts God’s Word and Promises. God’s CLEAR promises of Healing I have no problem with. The burden of proof must fall on you to say that healing covers ALL the ailments of this body. God’s promise is healing for sickness’, anything more we have no ground (verse) to stand on and believe for. Not to say God can’t or won’t heal in these circumstances. I’m saying in these vessels have no scripture to stand on.
We all know the results of the lack of different dietary items. Rickets, scurvy etc. and this knowledge is all directly the result of medical science. I ask – where do we draw the line. Do we cast it all out – say even physical exercise and TRUST God to keep this body. When it comes to sickness – even Doctors will tell you they can only treat the symptoms and not the disease. Here is where the direct promises of God can and should be applied. If our ailment is from say lack of physical exercise. We have a command (responsibility) to maintain this temple, if we are not – we have NO promises to stand on. It is plainly the result of SIN, and we should know the steps required from there.
JRS
To really grasp the Nature of God one must grasp the Desires of the True and Living God, our Lord and Savoir JESUS.
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