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| You're Challanged [message #8698] |
Sat, 17 December 2011 18:19  |
 Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada |
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Well not you! As in us here. But those out there in the charismatic world. Or even more so back in Goshen.
I have been a charismatic christian for going on 40 yrs. Most of that time under the faith message. Most of that time interested in learning and studying the word.
In all those years I have never seen heard of or read a "biblical based , intellectually rigorous , good , sound , well reasoned , satisfying defense of the doctrine "God heals through the doctors"
Not ever once.
Theologians , wannabees and christians who are interested in more than scratching the surface of biblical truth pride themselves on doing just that. Where it concerns a doctrine. That is providing a good sound biblical based intellectually rigorous exposition of a doctrine
Roman Catholic teachers have a better basis for this because it is spoken to in the Apocrpha. But of course that isn't scripture. At best what we get is an arguement from silence.
I've been an adult and christian too many years not to know what people are like. Taking this to a christian leader somewhere usually results in some form of . . .
- what kind of silly question is that?
- why do you listen to those people?
- I'm not going to respond to that kind of stupidity.
- I don't care what they say its just nonsense! (that one is generally growled out)
Or whatever. The one thing they won't give you is a satisfying intellectually rigorous biblical based defense of this doctrine.
There are verses they will point to of course. After all Luke was a doctor wasn't he? Probably Pauls personal physician. Well that settles it then. See I answered my own question.
With no criticism intended I'd like to say that most teachers hold to that doctrine to excuse their own unbelief. Their own ability to get the prayer of faith done. Because getting to and staying in a place of being able to do that is too much work. Or because they don't want to lose the respect of the group they are part of. Or plain simple fear or, or, or.
So if I'm challenged to provide a defense of God healing through the prayer of faith. I'm ready. I'm sure most of us here could as well.
So if you know of one. Post the link. Or send it privately. Or pass my note on to the theologian in the family. I'm not afraid of having my beliefs challenged. I have long believed that those of us with strong opinions ought to allow them to get a good shaking every now and then.
So to those of you outside the faith message. . .
You're Challenged
[Updated on: Sat, 17 December 2011 18:22]
I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
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| Re: You're Challanged [message #8701 is a reply to message #8699] |
Fri, 23 December 2011 15:54  |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Mark,
I agee with you also!
What would be your reply in ref to this?
http://www.lff.net/Positions%20on%20issues/Divine%20Healing/ index.php
Doctrinal Statements and Positions
Divine Healing
Healing in the Old Testament: Natural and Supernatural
Malcolm Webber, Ph.D.
Ever since the beginning of human history, people have battled sickness, disease, pain and oppression in every realm - physical, emotional, mental and spiritual. Sickness and oppression have always been a part of human life.
The reason for this was the sin of man. When man sinned - when he went his own way instead of obeying God - he came under the curse of sin, and that curse included sickness and all the sufferings and oppression of this life.
In response to this suffering, understandably, man has sought relief. Every human culture - ancient and modern - reveals evidence of man's pursuit of healing through a variety of means, both natural and supernatural.
Man's Pursuit of Healing
Healing by supernatural or spiritual means......Witch-doctors
Healing by natural or physical means............Doctors
In human cultures, there are many different kinds of doctors (specialists in various fields) and many different kinds of witchdoctors (they too often have their own specialties).
We see these two kinds of healing also in the Old Testament in the midst of God's people Israel:
Healing in Israel
Healing by supernatural or spiritual means.......God
Healing by natural or physical means.............Doctors
In the Old Testament we see several things:
1. The willingness of God to heal His people supernaturally.
The Old Testament reveals God's willingness to use His supernatural power to heal His people from sickness and to deliver them from oppression. God revealed Himself as the "healer" of His people:
He said, "If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you." (Ex. 15:26)
2. The biblical balance regarding divine healing.
God does not, in the Old Testament, condemn the use of doctors or medical science. He does, of course, condemn the use of all supernatural means of healing apart from Himself. He condemns all other kinds of supernatural healing in the clearest of terms. For example in Deuteronomy 18, God condemns all kinds of occult activity, some of which can be used in the pursuit of healing:
When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. (Deut. 18:9-12)
In 2 King 1, King Ahaziah seeks help from the pagan god and is condemned by Elijah the prophet.
Now Ahaziah had fallen through the lattice of his upper room in Samaria and injured himself. So he sent messengers, saying to them, "Go and consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron, to see if I will recover from this injury." But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, "Go up and meet the messengers of the king of Samaria and ask them, 'Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going off to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?' Therefore this is what the LORD says: 'You will not leave the bed you are lying on. You will certainly die!'"…(2 Kings 1:2-4)
A Biblical Balance
We must have this balance in our theology of divine healing.
The Biblical Balance
Healing by supernatural or spiritual means....God is willing to heal His people Himself, and condemns all alternative supernatural means of healing
Healing by natural or physical means......God does not condemn natural means of healing
We do acknowledge there is often some overlap between doctors and witchdoctors. Natural healing and spiritual healing are tied together in many cultures. For the sake of simplicity we will deal with them separately in this study.
Natural Healing in the Old Testament
Firstly, we will look at God's acknowledgement of the existence of doctors and natural healing practices in Israel. God acknowledges their existence without condemnation.
Here are some general references.
Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted. From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness - only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil. (Is. 1:5b-6)
In Isaiah 1, God uses physical sickness as a metaphor for spiritual sickness, and there is a clear expectation on His part of medical treatment: cleansing, bandaging and soothing with oil. This passage and the ones that follow clearly reveal the presence of natural methods of healing in the normal life of the community of God's people. God draws from the lifestyle of His people practical and instantly recognizable images and He uses those images as spiritual metaphors in the words of His prophets as they address spiritual issues.
Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then is there no healing for the wound of my people? (Jer. 8:22)
Again this is a spiritual picture. But, again, this spiritual picture clearly reveals a context of the normalcy of natural methods of healing being used by God's people. The people didn't look at Jeremiah with a blank stare when he spoke these words and ask, "What's a physician? What's balm?" For a metaphor to be useful it must be meaningful as well as instantly and clearly recognizable.
In particular, from Jeremiah 8:22 we see:
1. God has a positive view of the physician.
2. The physician's presence in the midst of God's people is expected. God is surprised that there is no physician there.
3. He is recognized as a "professional." The physician has a recognized place in society.
4. He is expected to promote physical healing.
5. He is expected to use natural means to do so (e.g., the healing balm that Gilead was noted for).
Notably, God is "sad" in Jeremiah 8 that there is no physician. He expects a physician to be there! He is positive toward the idea. There is something wrong with the fact that there is no physician.
Go up to Gilead and get balm, O Virgin Daughter of Egypt. But you multiply remedies in vain; there is no healing for you. (Jer. 46:11)
Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed. (Jer. 51:8)
Both these prophecies again use sickness as a spiritual image, but we still see:
1. It is common and expected to seek natural cures for sickness.
2. There were several, perhaps many, possible treatments.
Once more, God does not express disapproval of this practice of natural healing. He expects it; it is normal in the life of the community of God's people.
They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. "Peace, peace," they say, when there is no peace. (Jer. 6:14; cf. 8:11)
From Jeremiah 6 we see that the dressing of wounds was a known skill and one could do it well or badly. The leaders, in a spiritual metaphor, were doing it very poorly here! Consequently, God rebukes them. In this metaphor, He rebukes them for not performing natural healing properly (cf. Job 13:4).
Son of man, I have broken the arm of Pharaoh king of Egypt. It has not been bound up for healing or put in a splint so as to become strong enough to hold a sword. (Ezek. 30:21)
Thus, it was known that binding up the broken arm will help it to heal. This is a natural healing process. There is no supernatural healing spoken of here and there is no condemnation from God of natural means of healing. This method of assisting natural healing is spoken as being a normal and expected part of life.
You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. (Ezek. 34:4a)
For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs. (Zech. 11:16)
Once more, these are prophetic metaphors in God's condemnation of the abusive leaders. The literal image behind these metaphors is that of a shepherd caring for his sheep. It is seen as good and appropriate for a shepherd to seek the healing of his sheep through natural means. Moreover, God clearly considers it quite inappropriate for the shepherd to not seek the healing of his sheep through natural means. It is downright irresponsible and negligent for him not to do so!
A merry heart does good, like medicine, But a broken spirit dries the bones. (Prov. 17:22, NJKV)
According to God, medicine "does good." If God saw medicine as bad then He would not have said this here.
Now we come to the clearest passage on this subject in the Old Testament. The following two verses occur in the early part of Moses' law.
If men quarrel and one hits the other with a stone or with his fist and he does not die but is confined to bed, the one who struck the blow will not be held responsible if the other gets up and walks around outside with his staff; however, he must pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed. (Ex. 21:18-19)
This is not a spiritual metaphor here; God is speaking about literal sickness and literal physical healing. Moreover, there is no reference to supernatural healing of the injured man's condition here, since the "loss of his time" clearly implies a process of healing over a period of time.
To "see that he is completely healed" means to make sure the injured man receives appropriate treatment and that his medical bills are paid. God commands this here as a part of His holy law!
the assailant must pay for time lost because of the injury and must pay for the medical expenses. (New Living Translation)
The New Living Translation is certainly a paraphrase of this verse and not a strict translation, but it does provide an effective and accurate interpretation of the meaning. The New King James Version gives a stricter translation of the verse, and it too is quite clear.
He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed. (New King James Version)
From Exodus 21, we see:
1. Physicians were present in Israel and fully accepted at the earliest stage of Israel's national existence.
2. Natural healing is not opposed by God.
3. God actually commands appropriate medical treatment here and even details who is ethically responsible in this particular situation to pay for it.
In conclusion, we do not see in the Old Testament any tension between supernatural healing by God and natural healing with the help of physicians. God does clearly condemn all uses of spiritual, supernatural healing apart from Himself, but He does not condemn methods of natural healing.
King Asa
Let us now consider the story of King Asa in 2 Chronicles 16.
In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa was afflicted with a disease in his feet. Though his disease was severe, even in his illness he did not seek help from the LORD, but only from the physicians. (2 Chron. 16:12)
Teachers of "extreme faith" who do not have a balance in their theology of divine healing will almost always cite this verse as evidence of a contradiction between divine healing and natural healing. They try to use this verse to show that you must choose between the kinds of healing; it is either one or the other. Therefore, if a believer accepts physical treatment of some kind he is sinning against God because God has promised to heal him.
Is that what this passage teaches? Let us look a little closer. Firstly, one should note that Asa's sin was primarily in the fact that "he did not seek help from the Lord." That statement clearly reveals the backslidden state of his heart.
Secondly, and more significantly, a better translation of the Hebrew would be:
even in his sickness, he did not seek the Lord, but rather made enquiry of the physicians. (Hebrew)1
Consider the King James translation of the verse:
yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians. (KJV)
The statement is that Asa made (oracular) enquiry of the physicians. The Hebrew term is a technical one referring to a religious enquiry. Thus, there is the idea of sorcery here. It is not merely that Asa sought natural healing through the help of a normal doctor. Asa went after pagan physicians who were practicing some kind of occult healing.
The same Hebrew term is used in 1 Chronicles 10:
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. (1 Chron. 10:13-14)
It was this kind of "seeking" that Asa committed in 2 Chronicles 16 - a religious, spiritual kind of seeking. What Asa must have done in 2 Chronicles 16 would have been similar to the sin of Ahaziah in 2 Kings 1:
Now Ahaziah had fallen through the lattice of his upper room in Samaria and injured himself. So he sent messengers, saying to them, "Go and consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron, to see if I will recover from this injury." (2 Kings 1:2)
Our conclusion is that 2 Chronicles 16:12 does not condemn natural healing through a physician, but it does condemn the use of occult healing practices.
In summary, God allows natural healing through physicians for His people. He expects it as appropriate; it is a normal part of life. God even commands it as part of His law (Ex. 21:18-19). However, when it comes to supernatural healing, God commands that His people turn to Him alone. Moreover, God is willing to heal when we turn to Him.
Let us now look at God's willingness to heal as revealed in the Old Testament.
God's Willingness to Heal His People Supernaturally
There is repeated evidence in the Old Testament of God's willingness to heal His covenant people through His own supernatural power. Here are just a few passages:
He said, "If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you." (Ex. 15:26)
Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span. (Ex. 23:25-26)
See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand. (Deut. 32:39)
Blessed is he who has regard for the weak; the LORD delivers him in times of trouble. The LORD will protect him and preserve his life; he will bless him in the land and not surrender him to the desire of his foes. The LORD will sustain him on his sickbed and restore him from his bed of illness. (Ps. 41:1-3)
Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits - who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with love and compassion, who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's. (Ps. 103:2-5)
Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones. (Prov. 3:7-8)
What wonderful promises! Moreover, these promises were not only made to the nation of Israel, but Paul boldly declares:
For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God. (2 Cor. 1:20)
Jesus is the final and comprehensive revelation of God (Heb. 1:1-3) and He is the personal embodiment of God's faithfulness. God has fulfilled and continues to fulfill every one of his promises in and through Christ. Furthermore, we affirm God's faithfulness to His promises when through Christ we say "Amen" to the teaching of God's truth.
Thus, even in His Old Testament promises of healing to Israel we find a clear revelation of God's willingness to heal His people today!
The Extreme Teaching
In contrast to the biblical balance, extreme faith teaching promotes the idea that God forbids His people to use natural means of healing. Such teaching is very damaging. If a Christian believes that God does not condemn natural means of healing, then he will continue to pray and look to God while he is receiving medical care. However, if he believes there is a contradiction between the two, he will fall under condemnation and be unable to pray or look to God for healing, thinking that God is angry with him and that he has no grounds to expect God to heal him while he is receiving any natural treatment. In this way, supposed "faith" teaching actually undermines the faith of God's people!
Moreover, if God forbids His people to receive medical care, where do we draw the line? Is it acceptable to use band-aids or to set a broken bone? Can a Christian clean a wound or is that "not faith"? Is it "faith" to use preventative measures related to physical health? Where do we draw the line? Thus, many sincere Christians have been brought under confusion by such teaching.
Additionally, there have been many sincere believers who have allowed themselves or their children to die for lack of medical treatment, all along believing they were doing what God expected of them. This has been a bad witness for the Christian faith.
The biblical teaching of divine healing is a very positive message of hope and blessing through the grace of God; it is not one of guilt, fear, condemnation and death.
In Conclusion
In the Scriptures we find a balanced theology of divine healing:
The Biblical Balance
Healing by supernatural or spiritual means God is willing to heal His people Himself, and condemns all alternative supernatural means of healing
Healing by natural or physical means God does not condemn natural means of healing
The Word of God, and not the errors of men, is the basis of our faith. An "extreme" and unbalanced faith will not help the people of God, but will only lead them into bondage and further oppression. In the Word of God there is life and victory!
1 Michael L. Brown, Israel's Divine Healer, Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1995, pp. 47-53.
Ron
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| Re: You're Challanged [message #8705 is a reply to message #8703] |
Sat, 24 December 2011 18:18 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Mark:
What’s a petard ? (had to look that up…William uses those fancy words too)
It may not have answered the question but I thought Malcolm had some interesting
thoughts on the matter……..not that I agree with all that he has said or taught !
I’m not ready to give up my Extreme views Re: The message of Faith
The question that comes to mind is:
Do we undermine Gods sovereignty by trying to help thru natural healing/medical science
rather than trusting God and His word alone, regardless of the out come ?
I may have to email Malcolm and ask him that.
(email sent,waiting reply)
William wrote:
I agree with the viewpoint that overturns the notion that any healing not obtained supernaturally from God is by nature satanic (occultic), but I wouldn't go so far to say that all healing not obtained from God is without sin. Throughout the gospels we are encouraged to have faith in God. When we don't we are in unbelief... and to that extent we are tossed like the waves of the sea.
Amen William !
Blessings
[Updated on: Sat, 24 December 2011 19:07]
Ron
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| Re: You're Challanged [message #8706 is a reply to message #8705] |
Sat, 24 December 2011 19:51 |
Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada |
Member |
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Here are my thoughts on Malcolm's position.
I put my quotes from him in Italics and mine in bold
God does not, in the Old Testament, condemn the use of doctors or medical science.
Now there is the classic argument from silence! Because it isn’t condemned it must be OK.
Using that term has become a bit of a bugbear these days in that when one wants to silence their opponent they point to the argument from silence. It is not always right or even honest to accuse someone with whom you disagree of using an argument from silence. In this case I think it is entirely appropriate.
Where the bible speaks clearly to an issue “like divine healing” then it is valid to say that pointing to doctors is an argument from silence.
The biblical position is
• Ex 15/26 I am the Lord your healer
• Isaiah 53/ 4-5 its in the atonement
• James 5/14-15 heres how you get it.
Healing by natural or physical means God does not condemn natural means of healing
All of us would agree there is nothing wrong with the body’s own natural means of healing. Sleep and rest , proper food , acting responsibly, when one is sick or hurting.
In contrast to the biblical balance, extreme faith teaching promotes the idea
The issue with extreme teaching is really beyond the scope of the discussion here. Its been discussed in other place on the site and as I said all would agree we need to act responsibly. It being a bad witness people dying etc. All are valid points and worth discussion but the issue here really is whether God uses Doctors. Or does the bible teach it is appropriate for us to go to doctors
We do acknowledge there is often some overlap between doctors and witchdoctors. Natural healing and spiritual healing are tied together in many cultures.
There is issue #1. Its not just many cultures its their origins. Its where they came from. To say that doctors in our culture are science based simply has no basis in reality. There is much to say about that but has already been discussed to some extent on another thread.
I should also add that those who need help should go and get it. And I would be the first to take them.
Firstly, we will look at God's acknowledgement of the existence of doctors and natural healing practices in Israel.
As I said we would all agree that there is nothing wrong with natural healing methods.
...doctors and natural healing practices in Israel. God acknowledges their existence without condemnation.
The classic argument from silence.
Here are some general references.
The references to Jer 8 and Isaiah 1 are dealing with something spiritual. The reference has nothing to do with the physical
and there is a clear expectation on His part of medical treatment:
again the classic argument from silence
Again this is a spiritual picture. But, again, this spiritual picture clearly reveals a context of the normalcy of natural methods of healing being used by God's people. The people didn't look at Jeremiah with a blank stare when he spoke these words and ask, "What's a physician? What's balm?" For a metaphor to be useful it must be meaningful as well as instantly and clearly recognizable.
OK fair enough. But again it doesn’t address the issue
In particular, from Jeremiah 8:22 we see:
1. God has a positive view of the physician.
2. The physician's presence in the midst of God's people is expected. God is surprised that there is no physician there.
3. He is recognized as a "professional." The physician has a recognized place in society.
4. He is expected to promote physical healing.
5. He is expected to use natural means to do so (e.g., the healing balm that Gilead was noted for).
We’re always accusing people of spiritualizing things. He is doing the opposite. The passage is speaking to something spiritual.
Jer 6, Job 30, Ezek 30, Jer 51, Jer 46
Once more, these are prophetic metaphors
And there is the whole point.
Now we come to the clearest passage on this subject in the Old Testament. . . . He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed. (New King James Version ) . . . Ex. 21:18-19)
From which he derives
Physicians were present in Israel and fully accepted at the earliest stage of Israel's national existence.
2. Natural healing is not opposed by God.
3. God actually commands appropriate medical treatment here and even details who is ethically responsible in this particular situation to pay for it.
None of which it actually says. What it does say is – you caused the problem you fix it.
In conclusion, we do not see in the Old Testament any tension between supernatural healing by God and natural healing with the help of physicians . . .
That’s his conclusion but his total argument is a complete fallacy mainly based on an argument from silence. Or by taking spiritual metaphors and putting them in a context that was never intended.
King Asa
Secondly, and more significantly, a better translation of the Hebrew would be:
even in his sickness, he did not seek the Lord, but rather made enquiry of the physicians.
Our conclusion is that 2 Chronicles 16:12 does not condemn natural healing through a physician, but it does condemn the use of occult healing practices.
I don’t want to say right out loud where people can hear me that I think everything he said in this whole passage is complete rubbish so I won’t. I will instead politely say I think his entire argument about Asa is a complete fallacy.
The plain simple meaning of the passage is that King Asa went to the doctors and not God. The two are contrasted. Yes I agree that means doctors were present in Israel. No one has ever denied that. And . . . Israelites went to them. Probably for the same reason xians today go. Because they’re hurting and need help and don’t have the spiritual means to go to God. And who could argue with that?
[Updated on: Sat, 24 December 2011 19:57]
I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
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| Re: You're Challanged [message #8707 is a reply to message #8698] |
Sat, 24 December 2011 20:40 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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| Quote: |
To say that doctors in our culture are science based simply has no basis in reality.
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Hi Mark,
Please expand on your quote above. I guess I am not sure what you mean by "science-based"
Jman
____________________
At the time of this post . . .
39 years and 348 days without apostles.
Initial start date 1/1/72
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| Re: You're Challanged [message #8708 is a reply to message #8707] |
Sun, 25 December 2011 01:05 |
Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada |
Member |
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Hey Jman. I was simply saying that their origins are pagan and disagree that something modern supercedes it.
I'm not sure what was said on your other thread about medical science but I plan on reading more and commenting this weekend.
I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
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| Re: You're Challanged [message #8709 is a reply to message #8705] |
Sun, 25 December 2011 02:41 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
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| Quote: |
What’s a petard ? (had to look that up…William uses those fancy words too)
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Hey... I had to look it up too. I was surprised to find that we had a Shakespearean among us!
As to your charge against me I'd like to say in my defense that I'm more parsimonious in my word usage than some we've known.
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Sun, 25 December 2011 02:44]
I want to believe!
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| Re: You're Challanged [message #8711 is a reply to message #8709] |
Sun, 25 December 2011 03:13 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Yep,
He's told us for years he was a truck driver, now we know the truth...a Shakespearean truck driver ! Well read truck driver too!
Could you add an on line Dictionary to this site, like you did
with the Blue letter Bible ? Sure would save time on looking up them big words.
Blessings
Ron
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| Re: You're Challanged [message #8712 is a reply to message #8698] |
Sun, 25 December 2011 03:43 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi Moulder,
>>>>>>> “Okay, I give up. Who was the last one? “
I used my start point as 1972 because I figured Faith Assembly was up and
running by then. So my signature is a reference to how long FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,
and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles.
Jman
____________________
At the time of this post . . .
39 years and 358 days without apostles.
Initial start date 1/1/72
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