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| The Faith Message [message #56] |
Mon, 13 February 2006 03:01  |
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 william
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| mark1124 wrote on Sun, 12 February 2006 08:01 |
Do you think that maybe God is continuing to restore the house that was once built, line upon line, precept upon precept?
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Yes I do believe that He is in the process of restoration and the faith message is absolutely necessary for the completion of the work. Like you said, there are a lot of pieces that need to come together and God is bringing it about in the lives of His people.
My whole contention is one of addition (adding to our faith) not giving anything up!
I agree with Hombre, he said:
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...many of our ilk from FA, had their eyes placed somewhere else, and instead of blaming Hobart, as so many have/do....I am going to submit that people deified 'the faith message' itself...as a method of obtaining from God, versus looking unto the Author and Finisher of our faith.
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We all know the importance of "faith" (do I need to recite the verse list here?) but to lift faith out of the context of a living, intimate, relationship with Jesus and place it on a pedestal means that we have "deified" the message.
I know from my own experience that when I am walking close to the Lord, I don't think about "having" faith... it's just there, like a by-product of the relationship. On the other hand when my walk with God isn't what it should be "having" faith is a struggle and I'm constantly re-evaluating my faith, checking off the conditions, etc., etc..
"Faith" in a system might work for some but I would be very wary of the source.
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OK...Mark is off his soapbox and back in his shell.
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Hey, I like Mark out-of-the-box!
Concerning the other things you wrote I'll need to think a little more before I wade in over my head.
moulder
I want to believe!
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| Faith-5 Elements [message #58 is a reply to message #56] |
Mon, 13 February 2006 19:27  |
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william
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| Hombre wrote on Mon, 13 February 2006 11:09 |
I think that the entire faith message, as given by Hobart,
was a simplistic way of explaining what happens when a believer
trusts God.
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Yes, if you want to examine faith you'll find the 5 elements 1)The believer has grounded his faith in the word of God. 2) The believer has embraced the promise (that he found in the word of God) so naturally he will ASK. 3) At this time the believer "confesses" the promise in the Greek sense of the word--meaning that he is in "agreement" with what God has said about the matter. 4) The believer then will naturally ACT on what he believes. 5) Endurance is the part where the faith is tested--Endurance until the invisible reality becomes the visible reality.
For one to simply take these "steps" expecting them to work is folly, especially from confession to endurance.
It's easy to fall into the trap of 1) finding the promise 2) Asking for the promise and at this point deciding that all that is needed is to 3)talk and 4)act like you've received the promise, and that at some point in the future (after (5)enduring for awhile) you are guaranteed the promise will come to pass.
Well, it doesn't work like that. Yes, true faith will have those elements as we analyze it, but "doing" the steps isn't what produces the answer. When one has a relationship with the Lord and "claims" a promise, those "steps" (I hate the term "steps" because of what it implies) will naturally occur.
Just look at the salvation experience. 1)We hear a message from the Bible (Grounding in the Word) 2)We pray the sinners prayer (ASKING for salvation) 3)We begin to CONFESS what we have received--NOT TO GET SALVATION--BUT BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN SAVED! 4)We ACT like we are saved (not doing the old things, etc..) not because we are ACTING like we are saved but because we ARE SAVED! 5)We ENDURE until the end--not for any merit in "toughing it out", but because of what we have become--children of God.
Contrast that with one who thinks that he's going to get some blessing just because he follows the steps. It won't happen.
moulder
I want to believe!
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| Going to "Church" [message #61 is a reply to message #58] |
Mon, 13 February 2006 21:59 |
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william
Messages: 1462
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Yer too funny!
And quit spelling my name mulder you're blowing my cover... when I'm undercover I go by moulder!
Actually I had no idea how to spell it so I typed in x-files and moulder on google and a bunch of pages came up with that spelling (moulder) so rather than go to some die-hard fan page to get the true facts I simply relied on my slipshod research. I then concocted the idea that I was working undercover and didn't need to use my real name lest "they" find me.
Ah, back to the subject you brought up regarding attending "Church'. I know exactly what you mean. We've searched for years and years and while there is a world of difference between what I would like to see and what I actually see I've settled into the routine.
Here is the way it goes:
Music starts, overhead projector puts up the words and it begins. We've got a professional musician so you know right away that the key won't be one you can sing but since we sit toward the front with no one sitting directly in front of us I can croak around until I find a harmony that doesn't sound too bad (ok, I know it sounds real bad--to use the vernacular!).
If I don't know the song (I hate to keep looking at the projector) I'll sing it in tongues. Then, just as I'm getting into it a bit the music stops for announcements and the offering (I haven't been able to determine whether they stop because of me or if they have always stopped at this point but there is a definite "thud" that can be felt.)
During this period we are treated to someone singing the christian version of Sinatra's My Way.
After this the congregational singing is re-started (of course very limited congregational singing because of the professional key we are in) and this continues until the pastor begins to pray.
He then has a pretty good message. He has a degree in expository preaching which means he has to have something to "exposit" from so he uses the bible... I like that part.
We've got two services and since we go to the early service time is of the essence, but for the most part the message is the best part of the service, at least for me.
I sometimes have "visions of grandeur" and imagine myself sabotaging the sound equipment and being called upon to save the service. Using my cheap classic guitar I'd start out with a rousing chorus that everyone knew and do it in the key of C major. I'd have my eyes closed so when the show-stopper attempted to stop the show I'd move into a worship song that he'd have to cut through the anointing to get to the front. Before the deacons knew what hit them I'd have them bowing down with outstretched arms worshiping the Lord. Then we would begin singing in the spirit (in the key of D major.)
I would pretend not to see Frank Sinatra standing over in the wings as we finished off with a song about the blood. The pastor of course would be incapable of preaching so I'd introduce the 5 principles of faith and then end up "allowing" the Lord to confirm his word by healing all of the sick in the building.
No doubt I'd be asked out to Red-Lobster where I would continue to regale those present until the Lord allowed a fish bone to lodge in my throat--stopping the hush-puppy at the windpipe level.
Before I died, I'm sure I would repent for using "I" so much in my message--silently praying now cause I can't talk with that hush-puppy stuck in my throat.
Boy, they'd talk about that meeting for a long time.
moulder
[Updated on: Tue, 14 February 2006 03:31]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Going to "Church" [message #73 is a reply to message #61] |
Fri, 17 February 2006 21:55 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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Mulder (Moulder),
I don't remember seeing you at my Baptist church! You provided a very accurate description of our worship service. All the way down to the key we sing in. I have a very deep voice, and it sounds like I'm going through puberty on many of our songs.
Also, I think Hombre mentioned singing the "Lord's Prayer." Up until the last year, we always sang the Doxology. When we finallly stopped sing it, some of the old folks had a hard time with it.
I think our church is slowly making strides in the right direction. Since I was a kid during my FA days, the worship services didn't mean as much to me as some of you "older" folks. That's not to say I didn't enjoy them. I played the guitar there for years and really got something out of it.
However, as a kid (and thinking back as an adult), some of the same peer pressure was put on people as it would be at Hombre's church, just on the other side of the coin. I can remember feeling pressured TO raise my hands or to dance at my seat, because this was the song that everyone was supposed to dance. Remember the song, "In Him we live, and move and have our being..."? That was always the song that fired everyone up. It was the song that started everyone running the aisles around the mid-80s.
People can worship in different ways. I want a worship service that reflects this. If you are so moved that you have to raise your hands to God, then you should do it. If your way of worshipping God includes being still and quiet, then you should do it. It is all a matter of letting what is in your heart come out. Some churches today (the new "contemporary" churches) have to rely on a "manufactured" spirit of worship. They try to build people up emotionally, much like a pep rally before the big game. They might sing the same chorus over and over and over, as if they are trying to whip everyone into a "spiritual frenzy."
I've had meaningful worship where I had to jump to my feet. I have also had meaningful worship where I had to remain totally still with my eyes closed. What mattered was what was in my heart, not my outward expressions.
I'm not saying that my church is perfect. As I have stated before, it is a very conservative, non-charismatic Baptist church. The preaching and the doctrine are great. We could use a little spark in our worship, and our pastor recognizes that fact and has even mentioned it from the pulpit. Due to personality differences, our Music minister of 15+ years just resigned. I am believing that God will use this as the catalyst to bring some fire into our worship.
Sorry for the long-winded post. I started to feel like Hombre for a moment (just kidding). I don't have a lot of free time to "preach," so I save it up until it spills out onto my keyboard. In the meantime, I have to settle for messing with Fiver, the Tree Boy's mind over on Factnet. It's a living.
Thanks for letting me pontificate.
Duncan
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| Re: The Faith Message [message #74 is a reply to message #56] |
Sat, 18 February 2006 00:18 |
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Duncan,
You and I have similar sentiments and possibly similar outcomes because of those sentiments. I myself went though a ‘dry spell’ that lasted almost 18 years, (which will give away my age I’m sure.)
One thing I’ve learned, amongst many others, is that we should never forsake the gathering together of ourselves in worship.
One problem we’ve had in the last 20th and early 21st century is we’ve come to ‘expect’ something when we go to church. It’s like we have to be entertained or as they say, “get something out of it’. Phooey! You gather together to worship our Lord and savior…period. If your hearts right and your intentions are right, you’ll get something out of it. But that’s not the reason you go. You go to worship the one who has paid a terrible price for you.
It’s sort of like the seed faith junk that’s been going around. These preachers are telling people to give so they’ll get something. Wrong motivation, wrong channel. Unfortunately our man centered culture has taught us to believe that everything revolves around us. We don’t want to be bored in church, so we’ll couch it in terms that make us feel that we’re not really that shallow. We say we want a deeper spiritual experience or more vivaciousness. We want to give money but we do it as we’ve been taught like Pavlov Ian dogs, so we’ll be able to pay off the house or get a better job, etc.
That’s why we’re so easily deceived nowadays. We have itching ears to hear things that appeal to our selfish nature. Anyway, sorry for the rant. I had to get that one out of me.
Oh and Duncan. I have to disagree with you on something. I don't think 'tree boy' has a mind like you and I can conceptualize.
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| This manna is tasteless and a bit wormy--grumble-grumble [message #85 is a reply to message #83] |
Tue, 21 February 2006 02:00 |
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william
Messages: 1462
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HOW MANY churches, and or members of churches...do you know.....who can even tell you about these very foundational truths and fundamental teachings of Christianity in a concise, direct and complete manner?
Out of those who can....how many have moved BEYOND that, and are not stuck in a endless cycle of neighborhood evangelism programs and community service?
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Ok, after reading your book <g> the question is:
Where do we go from here? Your assessment of the present day situation is exactly on target and I can identify with each of your points, but we need to have a plan for the future. What can we do to make sure this isn't going to be the status quo?
We have a good grasp of what *not* to do and we have tasted a bit of the honey so we have an idea about what would be a satisfying "church" experience--but how do we get there?
Why hasn't there been assemblies of faith springing up all over the nation? (Maybe there are and I'm just not aware of them?)
Why hasn't someone (or why hasn't everyone) taken the simplicity of the New Testament pattern and moved with it? Is it because we see all of the failures and are afraid to "do" anything that would smack of "a work of man"? If so, do we then expect the Holy Spirit to do it apart from us?
It was "easy" back then... all we had to do was root up our lives and move to Indiana--are we waiting for a similar thing to happen? Or is God waiting for us to "start" something?
I know the value of the wilderness experience so I'm not itching to "start" something in the flesh, but when the wilderness experience is over will we be ready to cross the Red Sea and/or face the temptations of Satan? Not to mention taking the land!
We can't go back to the leeks and garlic, the manna we are served up is tasteless and a bit wormy--what's a fellow to do?
William
[Updated on: Tue, 21 February 2006 02:02]
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Faith Message [message #87 is a reply to message #56] |
Tue, 21 February 2006 21:32 |
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william
Messages: 1462
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That's a lot of questions Keemosabe
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Boy, you do like mixing up the metaphors! (SciFi to the old west)<g> (that is from my old CompuServe days and it means <grin>).
I haven't figured out how to use all of those prepackaged faces--  Ah, I see how easy it is now. <g>
I guess my thinking on the subject and the notes (here and on the other board) that I've read has created a desire to examine more closely what I believe about the future--or at least my part in it.
Look at it this way--are we like the children of Israel who wandered in the wilderness and then possessed the land or are we more like the church in the book of Acts that was scattered everywhere taking the gospel of the kingdom with us to others?
Simply put--are we waiting on a Joshua to arise to lead us or are we a leaderless army that should already be doing exploits? Don't read too much into that--I know we aren't "leaderless" but in a natural sense we are.
You mentioned the passage in Hebrews:
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Paul reminds the believers that they should be further along than they are ( Heb. 4: 12-14 ) because
they are unskillful in the Word of God ( and may I add, not JUST the Word of God, in terms of memorization,
but its' practice ), and exhorts them to move forward FROM the first principles of the doctrine of Christ:
1.) repentance from dead works, 2.) faith toward God, 3.) the doctrine of baptisms ( plural ),
4.) the laying on of hands, 5.) resurrection of the dead, 6.) eternal judgment.
Heb. 6 : 1-3t
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And of course Heb 5:12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers..."
Should we be teachers now? Or are we still waiting for a Gideon (continuing to mix up the metaphors!)
I suppose there are no concrete answers which makes it a bit frustrating... maybe we should focus on the really neglected ministry of raising the dead (right from the commission!) We certainly have no lack of graveyards from which we can work in peace! <g>
Blessings on your day!
William
[Updated on: Tue, 21 February 2006 21:35]
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Faith Message [message #97 is a reply to message #56] |
Wed, 22 February 2006 19:50 |
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Maybe we should define what the real 'faith message' is. My definition of the faith message is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Sort of like what Peter said to Jesus. Matt 16:15-16.
What I hear others define the faith message is to ask God for something you want and get it. I'm sorry to tell you my brothers and sisters that I've moved on from that. I do petition my Father, but never presumptuously. The Lords Prayer is a good guideline for a perfect prayer. I know this statement might alienate some of you, however I hope not.
I’m not ashamed to tell you I went to the Hospital last May for a Kidney stone problem that required them going in after it. It was a huge stone lodged way up in my urethra and I was in so much pain if you put a bullet in my head I wouldn’t have cared. Did I lack faith for my healing? You guys can argue it but I won’t join you. I go to the Dentist for bi-annual teeth cleaning. Once he found a cavity, I had him fill it. Lack of Faith? I don’t think so.
I’ve always respected Dr. Freeman and always thought he was a good teacher of theology and Old Testament history and such. He was the lone voice in the charismatic wilderness when the ‘Jesus died spiritually on the cross’ heresy came out. He took at lot of heat for that. Because of him coming out so strongly against that he kept a lot of people following that doctrine of the Devil straight to Hell. Due to his training in seminary he understood the sinless substitutionary requirement for atonement. Something most of the so called Charismatic’s of our day have no clue of. Like Copland, Hagin and many others. Then again most Charismatic's today don’t have much of a clue about anything. One of the many things good about F/A was we didn’t go off the deep end like so many other groups did with unconventional teaching. I’ve got to tell you when I turn on the TV and watch this channel called the TBN network, with Paul Crouch and his wife with the big blue hair, Benny Hinn and Jessie Duplantis; well I just cringe and shake my head.
I’ve never blamed Dr. Freeman for my wilderness experience after he passed or anything else. I know he was just a man. Keep in mind the things that he taught us like Christian ethics, Old Testament Theology, Hebrew, Greek, Eschatology where just ordinary orthodoxy that’s been around for years. It was nothing new. He was obviously a good professor when he taught at Grace Theological Seminary. He expounded it well and made it understandable to the most common man. Like Martin Luther did. He made biblical fundamentals understandable for the common man.
Sorry for my rant. I know this started out talking about the faith message; I kinda went off into the tall grass.
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| Re: The Faith Message [message #98 is a reply to message #97] |
Wed, 22 February 2006 21:17 |
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william
Messages: 1462
Registered: January 2006 |
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Keep in mind the things that he taught us like Christian ethics, Old Testament Theology, Hebrew, Greek, Eschatology where just ordinary orthodoxy that’s been around for years.
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Yes, I agree. It was different only because no one else was teaching it.
Concerning your other points, don't worry, if I've learned anything, I've learned not to jump to conclusions about other's experiences.
We've talked a lot about what went wrong and etc., but if I might offer one observation based solely on our (my family) experience.
There seemed to be a lack of involvement in other's sufferings. Man it was easy to *say* "just believe God" and then go our separate way avoiding the need to face facts.
Heck, if it didn't work it must be a lack of faith--right? Maybe, maybe not, but if it was a lack of faith the proper response should not have been shunning.
It was almost as if we lived in fear of real involvement in the apparent shortcomings of other's trials. Perhaps we feared lest a worst thing come upon us, but fear seemed to be the motivation.
I can remember one instance where we had a home-birth and my wife was in need of prayer... we were believing God but it was a serious trial of our faith. A brother took it upon himself to stand up at the meeting (I stayed home with my wife) and instead of simply asking the body to intercede for us, he made a point of saying that I had been seen "fellowshipping" with someone who had left FA and was perhaps suffering chastisement from God for my sin.
For crying out loud--we were in a life and death situation and he was more concerned that the intercession not interfere with a lesson God may have been trying to teach me.
Needless to say this type of thinking was getting the cart before the horse--people were insulating themselves from failure, i.e. if my wife didn't make it they already knew it was because of my "sin".
I use this only to illustrate a general propensity to ignore those in real need and attempt to shield ourselves from the "negative".
Woe to that person who didn't measure up--they were shunned. What a pity.
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Going to "Church" [message #99 is a reply to message #78] |
Wed, 22 February 2006 21:24 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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Mulder,
Sorry for the delayed response, but some of us have to earn a living! (Just kidding). Actually, the business world keeps me on the go, so I can only check the board every few days. By that time, Hombre has already posted two or three dissertations. Is it just me, or does anyone else need to take a restroom break halfway through one of his posts?? (Hombre, you know I'm just messing with you out of brotherly love. Since the Tree Boy isn't here, I have to find some way to amuse myself!)
I did wear suits all the time to church. In fact, I own three times as many suits now as I do blue jeans. If you were facing the stage at FA, my family always sat on the third or fourth row on your right. Remember the plastic yellow chairs? We always sat in those. They felt a lot better during a two-hour sermon. That was also the same side of the stage as the organ (which my brother played about half the time).
You're bringing up a lot of good memories!
Duncan
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| Re: The Faith Message [message #103 is a reply to message #56] |
Wed, 22 February 2006 22:21 |
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mark1124
Messages: 48
Registered: February 2006
Location: Salem, Mass. |
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Oh you saw that too huh? The reason he is warning about us is that he can't come here and post that garbage here and get away with it like he can there. Watch how much the room will be dominated by himself when no one posts over there anymore. It gets awefully lonely when you talk to yourself!
Good job brother William. I suppose if you were an admin over the other forum, it would have been better for all of us.
God bless your efforts, brother!
Mark Scaliotti
(formerly tree-boy's target)
[Updated on: Wed, 22 February 2006 22:22]
Mark S. Scaliotti
"Faith is trusting God for all things, in all things, and through all things, no matter what."
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| Re: The Faith Message [message #1103 is a reply to message #56] |
Sun, 30 December 2007 23:08 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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Not sure if I'm putting this in the correct location? It's a start.
Hello,
I wanted to say Hi and express how much I’ve been blessed in reading the posts here. I was skeptical of this internet stuff and still getting use to it. I guess I would have to say age is a factor here.
I was a raised in the denominational church. After confirmation I could probably count the number of times I was in a church on my fingers. I believed in God, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, but at the same time I was in full rebellion against the church. They were very hypocritical, as I saw them, and I still haven’t seen much to change that perception. In 1978, little did I realize at the time, the Lord led me to a little nondenominational church. What really caught me was their worship. I mean even the denominational hymns there was something special that I had never experienced before and I couldn’t deny. My only recourse was to begin questioning it all. Every question I asked – the answer was – here is what it says in the Word of God. Well seeing it already written, I knew better than to though it away, maybe could agree or understand it, but to reject it. Even at the time that felt like I was rejecting God himself. That little jingle was stuck in me – “Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so”. Though the worship was special and I was hungering for more of what the Bible has to say, I saw much of the service as “Hype” and entertainment for the people. Then in August of 1978 I had had enough and one might say I put God to the test. If any remember – slain in the spirit was a big thing back then. I sat in the back and prayed the sinners prayer to receive God in my heart – Yes - Born Again, and finished the prayer with “God I don’t understand all your workings and I want to believe, I am going to go up front to be prayed for, and if this pastor so much as begins to force me down I will turn around and never step foot in here again. Well one might guess what the out come was. There was a number of people up being prayed for. I was on my way up and still about 5 feet away and he raised his hand towards me and started to pray and in an instant I was on the floor. Praise God. In that moment my heart was changed and have had a hunger for the Word of God ever since.
The Joy that I experienced is beyond words. Yes that my sins have been forgiven, yes I’ve been washed by the pure and Holy Blood of Jesus, and most of all that I’ve been set free!!!! Free to fulfill my calling – that is to Glorify and worship My Lord and Savior to rest and enjoy him forever. Also came the realization that I was not in control of my life but he was. What a burden that was lifted, and that I can’t emphasize enough. The last 17 years have been like a wilderness to me and there has been a number of times when praying “want happens to me doesn’t matter, I will always praise God and just ask for the Grace to continue to do so”.
The Faith message is important, and it is only 1 of a number of gifts he has given us. I praise God for Bro Freeman and Bro Ross (the church in Poultney, Vt.) and the purity of the Word of God that was bought forth. There are no formulas or processes that we need to see the fulfillment of God’s Word. It is to use the simple faith God has given us and Rest in Him. WOW I can go on and on expressing the faithfulness of God.
I haven’t been able to read though all the posts here yet. I have been blessed and can relate to your experiences. Oh yes – I feel as though I would explode to find a body of believers praising God in the freedom he desires for us to have.
I was in a service one time and some scripture was read. My spirit jumped and not thinking shouted “AMEN”. I felt as though I had picked up a plague or something the way people reacted towards me. Praise God.
Jim
If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:36
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| Re: The Faith Message [message #1125 is a reply to message #1103] |
Thu, 10 January 2008 16:17 |
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william
Messages: 1462
Registered: January 2006 |
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Great testimony Jim!
I've only briefly checked in over the last three weeks and I'm finding that there are a lot of new messages to read.
Welcome to the forum!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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