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| Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7390] |
Fri, 15 October 2010 05:56  |
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 william
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I'm going through the book of Romans and have noticed that there is a
clear progression presented from chapter one to chapter eight.
First Paul concludes the whole of the gentile nations in need of a savior.
In Romans 1:17 he presents the idea that if any are to be justified before
God it must be done by trusting in His provision: "the just shall live by
faith".
He then shows that the Jews needed this provision as much as did the
gentiles.
The law was insufficient for the task!
Next in chapters six through eight Paul moves from justification to the
believer's sanctification, or his life after justification, and that this
life that we now lead is a result of His own provision--by the Spirit.
Finally he moves from justification and sanctification to the idea of full
redemption or the manifestation of the sons of God. In this third stage
it seems that the whole of creation will participate in our adoption as
sons of God. He takes us from justification, to sanctification, to
glorification.
Obviously the works of the believer do not play a part (at least not a
direct part) in either the justification, which is by faith (that He
gives!), and the sanctification, which is also by faith--coming from the
imputation of the righteousness of Christ, leaving the final part of the
process, glorification, as a future hope.
My question is this: If justification and sanctification are both the
result of His work, how is it that the we sometimes conclude that the
final stage is going to be a result of our own works? Is it fair to say
that the completion of the process is now going to be dependent on the
work of the flesh?
Gal 3:2-3 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having
begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
How about those who have heard and believed the gospel (those who are
justified), and those who are trusting in Him for their righteousness
(sanctification); are they eligible for that wonderful glorification, that
we all are looking to experience-- even if they haven't partaken of the
deeper truths we have heard?
Does this glorification come only to those who have already achieved a
level of sanctification brought about by being privileged to hear a deeper
word or is it possible that the Holy Spirit might be working to bring
about this adoption in all of those who cry Abba, Father?
It is hard to grasp the notion that the first may be last and
the last first!
Thoughts?
Blessings,
William
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[Updated on: Fri, 15 October 2010 06:04]
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| Re: Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7391 is a reply to message #7390] |
Fri, 15 October 2010 17:48  |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| moulder wrote on Fri, 15 October 2010 00:56 |
My question is this: If justification and sanctification are both the
result of His work, how is it that the we sometimes conclude that the
final stage is going to be a result of our own works? Is it fair to say
that the completion of the process is now going to be dependent on the
work of the flesh? Could you elaborate a bit as to what exactly you mean?
Are you saying 'we' as Christendom, or 'we' as us on this board?
How about those who have heard and believed the gospel (those who are
justified), and those who are trusting in Him for their righteousness
(sanctification); are they eligible for that wonderful glorification, that
we all are looking to experience-- even if they haven't partaken of the
deeper truths we have heard? 'Eligible'? Are you speaking of 'overcomers/manchild/' or something different?
Of course people are going to be 'glorified' with various degrees of 'deeper' teachings and understandings...
unless when He speaks of us ALL coming to the fulness of Christ, it will happen across the board
and all Christians will have an equal depth of understanding of spiritual matters...
Does this glorification come only to those who have already achieved a
level of sanctification brought about by being privileged to hear a deeper
word or is it possible that the Holy Spirit might be working to bring
about this adoption in all of those who cry Abba, Father?
Could it be based on the obedience of what a person has been given?
I would think that obedience to what we've been given is more important to God than how much 'deeper word' we have...
that will vary from person to person...imo It's ALL by grace...yet we DO have responsibilities...OBEY
It is hard to grasp the notion that the first may be last and
the last first!I could care less whether I'm first or last, that's totally God's call, my life's goal is to be included when the Lambs Book of Life is read.and I know that that will only be by His Grace, what He did at Calvary God has given me both wisdom and discernment, and He has bee merciful to forgive me when I relied on my own flesh and didn't use it. Would I like to be part of those called an 'overcomer'? YES, but that 'label' isn't one that we put on ourselves...When we're GIVEN to eat of the tree of life; not hurt by the second death; a white stone; power over the nations; clothed in white raiment; made a pillar in the temple of God; to sit with Jesus in His throne; then we can say we're 'Overcomers' (and I believe it will be the most humbling experience one could imagine, because those chosen will KNOW it was by GRACE and not their own works)
Thoughts?
Blessings,
William
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“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7392 is a reply to message #7391] |
Fri, 15 October 2010 19:53 |
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william
Messages: 1466
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Yes, I'm referring to us, but not to anyone specifically... (except maybe
myself!)
I was more or less just thinking out loud James, hence the vagueness of my
post!
And I assumed that those who had been given more were actually walking in
that truth, although upon reflection there are probably a lot of cases
where this would not be true.
Analogous would be the bigger picture of the elect vs the non-elect. In
that case the elect have nothing to boast about (but have every reason to
be thankful!) The elect go forth and walk in a measure of obedience and
then enter into their rest. My example is a smaller sample which
theoretically only includes the elect. I say theoretically, since we have
no way of knowing whether or not one is of the elect. We can only assume
that those who have received Jesus are justified/saved.
So with that in mind, can we not conclude that those who have been
privileged to hear (and obey) the deeper truths of the Word, have this
privilege because of election, and not necessarily because we have good
hearing & obedience skills?
If this is the case, then it seems to me that any advantage that we might
have is not due to our diligence (alone) but God's sovereignty in the
matter.
Ro 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.
No doubt the verse in Hebrews comes to mind:
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that
cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them
that diligently seek him.
Which seems to highlight the due diligence of the believer as the key to
rewards, etc., until one considers the other passages that show our utter
lack of capability apart from His Grace.
I'm attempting to beat back that old attitude that takes pride in our own
station in life while we, at the same time, are condemning those who don't
*seem* to be measuring up. More and more I'm realizing that I must take
at face value the justification of others (it is God that justifies!)
without the presumption that their perceived lack of diligence is a result
of apathy. Perhaps the opportunity for maturity (in the deeper things)
hasn't knocked yet on their door. (Meaning that there aren't a whole lot
of five-fold ministers out there just yet!)
Eph 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the
saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of
Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge
of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of
the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to
and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of
men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But
speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is
the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and
compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual
working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the
edifying of itself in love.
Blessings,
William
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| Re: Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7394 is a reply to message #7392] |
Fri, 15 October 2010 20:17 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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Amen, that 'old additude' definitely needs to be beaten back...< nodding in agreement>
I hope I don't come across as condemning of individuals,
it's the deceptions and false teaching that I condemn.
You know... it's hard to really know just how one 'comes across' without feedback from others. I understand what you're saying, I think...because it's the nature of our flesh to take pleasure others faults, thinking that it somehow elavates our status because we're so holy and perfect and they're not...but that's what we're to strive to overcome, that's what's meant by the crucifixion of our flesh and putting on The Lord Jesus Christ and making no provision for the flesh...so easy to write about... 
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7396 is a reply to message #7395] |
Fri, 15 October 2010 22:01 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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I did a study of Roman (apart from HEF notes or tapes...cause I no longer have any.  ) about two months ago. There's SO much there, one could spend a year just in that one book. One thing that The Lord put on my heart from the study was the importance of being aware of the time (for me as an individual). I posted what He gave me in the Coffee Break, on the Bulletin Board, post #7352 titled, 'Tick, Tick, Tick...'
I wanted so much to see our little local Bible study make a difference in lives, but denominational spirits are strong and so when the first one was finished the guys decided it would be better without me. So I went ahead and did the one we'd planned next, Romans, alone...well, I did have The Holy Spirit meeting with me...hope they did as well. Often we speak of 'the deeper teachings' we've had, but to this day I've not had anyone embrace any of the teachings on holiness, crucified life, divine healing, faith, sermon on the mount, nonresistance, holidays, or any other truths outside of Jesus is Lord and died for our sins and rose again and is coming back. (not that I've shared with thousands, but maybe a few hundred over 30 years) It's always met with 'huh?' or "that ain't really what it means, literally" or "that was a different dispensation and written for them then, we live in a whole new dispensation and we're 'free'."
Yep, God's sovereign plan, I'm just thankful He CHOSE me...don't see what He saw in me (well, yes I do actually, He saw me as the finished product, not the mared vessel)...Thank You, Jesus.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7398 is a reply to message #7397] |
Sat, 16 October 2010 02:41 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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Well I only moved to 'the big city' 7 years ago, before that I spent 22 years in the 'peach orchard', Clanton, Al. I guess I should have been clearer, I did say 'embrace' the teaching...by that I meant joyfully accept them, change their lives and start 'walking' in them, allow The Holy Spirit to reveal them as truth...
It's is amazing that for you "no one argues that it isn't taught in the Bible", concerning divine healing; I've found everything from total rejection to being told it was only for those days, or just so Jesus could display His power, or that was before God gave us doctors, blah, blah, blah...
I hate the way it turned out too...(the Bible study group of guys)(think it had anything to do with the fact they were all Alabama football fans, except me?)<rolling my eyes> One even allowed me to give him a KJV Bible (he had been using one of the more watered down translations) and the booklet by Bro. Freeman on 'Why Speak in Tongues'. But he'd received The Holy Spirit when he got baptized.....yep, but thanks anyway.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7399 is a reply to message #7398] |
Sat, 16 October 2010 03:07 |
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william
Messages: 1466
Registered: January 2006 |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2010, James wrote:
>
> It's is amazing that for you "no one argues that it isn't taught in the
> Bible", concerning divine healing; I've found everything from total
> rejection to being told it was only for those days, or just so Jesus
> could display His power, or that was before God gave us doctors, blah,
> blah, blah...
>
It is hard to argue when it's all there in black and white! It might have
something to do with the fact that I'm the youngest of the group,
though... who wants to kill the zeal of a youngster? <grin>
>
> I hate the way it turned out too...(the Bible study group of guys)(think
> it had anything to do with the fact they were all Alabama football fans,
> except me?)<rolling my eyes>
>
Don't you know the saying "when in Rome..."? <grin>
Blessings,
William
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| Re: Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7494 is a reply to message #7400] |
Thu, 18 November 2010 01:28 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Romans 8:
Just thinking out loud !
If I love God, and if I am called, and if His Spirit dwells in me…
Then I can know,
That I have been predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son
(image=likeness=life style=works of)
Then I can know,
That I have the power to overcome sin.
Then I can know,
That I have power over sickness in my body.
Then I can know,
That I have power to heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out demons !
Then I can know,
That I have the wisdom and the knowledge and the power to share the Gospel
with others to bring them into a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
How can I know this ?
Because it is written in His Word !
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image (likeness=life style=works of)
of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:(render as innocent) and whom he justified, them he also glorified.(Honor Or Magnify)
Ron
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| Re: Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7926 is a reply to message #7399] |
Fri, 10 June 2011 17:45 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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This post is not about Romans at all but just a note to say we've been doing a Bible study for the last three weeks. I'm encouraged,(though The Holy Spirit reminds me even as I write that I'm not to concern myself with whether or not I 'see' results, but to share in love the truth, that He'll take it from there.)by the questions being asked and the thought behind them, telling me that there's some conviction going on.
Denominational ties/spirits are so entrenched into the mindset of most Christians that care has to be taken in speaking the truth and yet at the same time not driving them away. I was told Sunday that,... "if what you're saying is true(in reference to The Baptism of The Holy Spirit, true repentance, Baptism in Jesus' name, and body ministry in a fellowship of believers), then I pretty much just threw away the last 18 years of my life because I don't speak in tongues". I got to say that I was tempted to say, "Hey, you're the one who wanted to know what the book of Acts has to say"...but I didn't. I told him there were/are many people who didn't receive The Baptism until years after salvation, that didn't make them unsaved, it just meant that there was/is so much more to a relationship with God/Jesus that is only revealed by His Spirit.(the promised Comforter/Holy Ghost)
Anyway, if anyone feels lead to, I would be blessed for prayer that God would, first direct me in what and when to say(and when to shut up and allow Him do the work), and also that God would open up spiritual eyes and ears that His Holy Word will accomplish which He purposes in the lives of those that seek Him, including Baptism in The Holy Spirit with the evidence and gifts present.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7927 is a reply to message #7926] |
Fri, 10 June 2011 18:36 |
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william
Messages: 1466
Registered: January 2006 |
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| Quote: |
I got to say that I was tempted to say, "Hey, you're the one who wanted to know what the book of Acts has to say"...but I didn't.
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I don't think I ever mentioned what happened when we went through the book of Acts. We got to chapter two and the pastor decided to sit in on the meeting! (He almost never came to the bible study.)
Anyway, after preaching along about the wonderful experience of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, the pastor's son piped up questioning my assertion that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was subsequent to one's salvation experience.
We looked at a couple of passages and he turns to his dad and said: "You don't believe that this is a separate experience, do you?"
His dad replied: "You got as much of the Holy Spirit at salvation as you ever will."
I wasn't trying to be contentious but I had to point out the experience of the Samaritans (Acts 8:12f) where it is clearly stated that they first believed, then were baptized and after the apostles came, they were filled with the Holy Spirit. No one had an answer to that so I moved on.
Well, guess what? The pastor announced his resignation the next Sunday (not due to my preaching but for other non-related reasons) and after a few months they turned up at the charismatic church I attend! A few weeks pass and the son comes up to me before the service and explains that he too believes that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was subsequent to the new birth!! I didn't press for details but I suspect that he had experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
You never know how the Word of God will bear fruit so never be discouraged when it doesn't seem as if what you have shared has been received. From planting to harvest-time requires patience!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Concepts in the book of Romans [message #7928 is a reply to message #7926] |
Fri, 10 June 2011 21:25 |
grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007 |
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| james wrote on Fri, 10 June 2011 12:45 |
Anyway, if anyone feels lead to, I would be blessed for prayer that God would, first direct me in what and when to say(and when to shut up and allow Him do the work), and also that God would open up spiritual eyes and ears that His Holy Word will accomplish which He purposes in the lives of those that seek Him, including Baptism in The Holy Spirit with the evidence and gifts present.
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As Jesus said. be it according to your faith brother. But I will pray accordingly.
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