Home » Discussion Area » Rant/Rave » Attending a church that lacks the gifts... what's the point?
| Attending a church that lacks the gifts... what's the point? [message #2365] |
Mon, 14 July 2008 16:31  |
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 william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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Hombre,
You stated in the "Welcome Buckley" thread:
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There are other issues for me in attending a church in which a variety show has taken precedence over the gifts and moving of the Holy Spirit, and the fact that what is coming from the pulpit is not preparing anyone for much of anything except a guilty reach for their wallets and some compulsory service for something that parallels the local Jaycees efforts.
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This got me to thinking about the question: Why attend a church where the gifts aren't recognized?
I mean, what is the point?
All here should know what I mean by "the gifts"... I'm talking about the supernatural ones mentioned in 1Cor 12 and elsewhere.
I can certainly understand the leadership limiting the gifts under certain circumstances, but to become yoked to a church that doesn't provide an atmosphere that would allow tongues, interpretation, etc., would seem an exercise in futility. What is to be gained by attending that type of church?
Can anyone truly say that the mere attendance trumps not attending under those circumstances?
What would be the minimum requirements that would constitute a God-ordained Church?
Anyone?
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Attending a church that lacks the gifts... what's the point? [message #2371 is a reply to message #2367] |
Mon, 14 July 2008 21:44  |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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If an assembly of believers or a church, doesn't have as their goal to be like the N.T.church shown in Acts then I don't see it as a God-ordained church. And to limit or hinder or deny the existence of the gifts of the spirit in the church just makes it an organization, not the living organism God ordained it to be. Remember body ministry as taught by HEF, that's not a men's pancake breakfast or a church yard sale. Body ministry only effectively works when the 'gifts' are present and flowing. We once experienced and witnessed this...I don't know where to go to find it now. And because I don't know of a church that meets the requirements of a God-ordained church; I've spent about 17 of the last 19 years out of church. And to be honest, I've quit looking. And the couple of years I did go, I feel like I wasted my time and money. And had to take myself through deliverance from the leadership and all the crap they taught.Yes, for me it was an exercise in futility...
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Attending a church that lacks the gifts... what's the point? [message #2376 is a reply to message #2374] |
Tue, 15 July 2008 04:01 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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| heb138 wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 22:16 |
Aren’t you missing the point of true “Body Ministry”? Aren’t we told in Eph 4 that the purpose of apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers was to equip the saints (you and me) for the work of building up the Body of Christ? Isn’t it time for us to be teachers of the Word, and not to just be looking for a cookie cutter church like Faith Assembly was in it’s day?
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How is it you can have "body ministry" without the gifts? Do we define the church, as such, by the presence of one or more of the teaching gifts? Secondly, it is a stretch for one to use the appellation of “teacher” if their curricula doesn't encourage the biblical exercise of the gifts.
Speaking of stretching definitions, using "cookie cutter" cannot in any way describe FA unless we can routinely redefine words to mean whatever we want... e.g. a "baker's dozen" is computed by subtracting thirteen.
And just because someone continues to look for a church that bears some semblance to the biblical pattern does not imply that one hasn't, or cannot "teach the Word". I’m pretty sure that anyone here can match anyone I’ve heard since the cookie-cutter days… (well… almost anyone here!)
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Tue, 15 July 2008 12:14]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Attending a church that lacks the gifts... what's the point? [message #2398 is a reply to message #2376] |
Thu, 17 July 2008 00:01 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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Here is an article I saw out of the Kalamazoo Gazette – date July 6,2008. With some of the discussions it would seem some might find it Really interesting.
Shift to more tolerant faith growing, observers say
BY LEE A. DEAN
Special to the Gazette
Most Americans are serious about the religious paths they are on but are increasingly reluctant to take the position ``my way or the highway.''
A survey of 35,000 people by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life released June 23 indicates that more are taking a nondogmatic approach to faith, believing there is more than one way to salvation and multiple ways to interpret the teachings of their faith traditions.
One way or many ways?
The survey findings pose a particular challenge to conservative religious bodies, such as evangelical Christian churches, that present Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation and eternal life. That is a challenge the Rev. Larry Kiser, pastor of Richland Bible Church, is more than eager to take on.
``I agree that there is a movement away from dogmatism and away from denominationalism. In the past few decades, the movement of church growth among interdenominational and nondenominational churches is astounding,'' Kiser said.
``But I am not in agreement with the tenet that says there are many ways to salvation. As a Christian minister, I agree with what Jesus said: `I am the way, the truth, and the life.'''
Seven in 10 survey respondents said they believe many religions can lead to eternal life, a view expressed by a majority of every religious affiliation except Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon groups.
Don Van Hoeven, of Montague, who served as a Reformed Church in America campus pastor at Western Michigan University from 1967 to 1994, expressed this inclusive view in a 1996 Gazette Viewpoints essay. The essay led to disciplinary action by the denomination.
``I was admonished and rebuked because I was speaking to the experience that now 70 percent of persons within the Christian community believe,'' Van Hoeven said.
``In our uniqueness as Christians, we have a message of God's love that must be told. But for us to be certain of our beliefs, we don't have to declare all other believers different from us as being wrong.''
A religious melting pot
The survey showed that the United States has a widely diverse religious landscape, with affiliations of every kind. The largest groups included evangelical Protestants (26.3 percent), Roman Catholics (23.9), mainline Protestants (18.1) and unaffiliated (16.1).
``Muslim identification may be the biggest surprise, especially in view of large conversion claims; just six-tenths of 1 percent of the population,'' said Paul Maier, a professor of history at Western Michigan University who has studied and written extensively on religion.
The increasing diversity has not yet wiped out the regional dominance of particular affiliations, such as the strong Reformed influence in West Michigan, the Lutheran accent in the Upper Midwest and Mormon prevalence in Utah and neighboring states. Kiser said West Michigan may be slightly more conservative than the rest of the country is, but he said it is not as conservative as the South, where he was a pastor for 20 years.
The Pew study found that more than half of Americans regard religion as very important in their lives, regularly attend religious services and pray every day.
These results, along with the high levels of affiliation, are a stark contrast to the religious climate in Europe, Maier said.
``Active churchgoers are minuscule in number -- so much so that some predict that Europe will be the first agnostic civilization in history,'' he said.
Future faith
Van Hoeven said he hopes the survey results signal an America that is becoming more pluralistic and accepting of people who hold different religious beliefs.
``What Pew is saying for me is that there is less acceptance of making people who are not like us in their religious views into second-class people. Churches who expound that are going to be more marginalized, limited and shrinking,'' he said.
To Kiser, the survey suggests a future American Christianity with sharper dividing lines between exclusive and inclusive views of salvation through Christ alone.
``That line of demarcation will probably become even more clear. I still believe with all of my heart that because Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, was crucified and rose again, that this sets him apart from all other religious leaders.
``I must remain dogmatic about that -- although there's a smile on my face when I say that,'' Kiser said. ``Jesus taught us to believe firmly in him but not to disenfranchise others and to love those who oppose us.''
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| Re: Attending a church that lacks the gifts... what's the point? [message #2418 is a reply to message #2398] |
Fri, 18 July 2008 16:41 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Sometimes God uses unexpected ways to show us His love and grace. Last night I recieved an e-mail that after listening to for an hour or so and having been blessed greatly, I was reminded of one of the things I really miss about attending church, WORSHIP OF JESUS with fellow believers. Yes we can worship wherever we are,yet there's nothing like anointed praise and worship.
Maybe I was just dry and in need of something to remind me of who He is and just who I am, but I was blessed and thought maybe it would bless others. It's music by Casting Crowns and the video is on youtube, you can click on other songs after each one is finished at the bottom of the screen. I have this CD, it's about 5 years old and I hadn't listened to them in several years. Hope it blesses you guys as much as it did me.
http://www.mychurch.org/blog/30635
[Updated on: Fri, 18 July 2008 16:45]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Attending a church that lacks the gifts... what's the point? [message #2497 is a reply to message #2398] |
Tue, 29 July 2008 17:10 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Regarding that article:
Several years ago the Lord nudged me to prepare to write a book about why we can know that Jesus is the only way to heaven. I have been distracted somewhat, because I have other projects I am working on, but I believe that the book will be written. The target audience will be Christians, nominal or genuine. It is essential for us to know what we believe and why we believe it and stand against the deception in this area. The "onliness" of Jesus is a basic tenet of Christianity, and if we compromise this area we destroy the foundation of it. I talk to my kids about this matter whenever there is a teachable moment to do so, because I am concerned that so many of the younger generation in the church have bought into the "many paths" nonsense, and I am determined that my kids are going to have a good foundation for their faith.
If you have any good resources that I can include in the book, please send them my way and I will try to view them. There is a host of good apologetic material out there, and I'm always willing to find more that I can get my hands on.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Attending a church that lacks the gifts... what's the point? [message #4978 is a reply to message #2365] |
Tue, 27 January 2009 04:48 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
Member |
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Right on Hombre!!
Years back many never heard of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit – today with the Charismatic movement most have at least heard about it and the gifts.
If churches and or individuals reject it, Tongues in particular. It is grounds to question their salvation.
Why? Acts 10:45 & 46 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Acts 11:17 & 18
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Jesus’ last commandment he gave the disciples before his ascension was that they should wait for the promise from the Father!! That commandment seems to be forgotten about today.
Acts 1:4-9
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
JRS
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