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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1672 is a reply to message #1653] |
Thu, 24 April 2008 04:08   |
 jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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| Sageshroomer wrote on Mon, 21 April 2008 08:20 |
HI Jae,
You said you think I need a vacation, and I couldn't agree more, except my mother broke her leg/hip and I can't get away right now because I am taking care of her.
Sorry to hear that. I hope she recovers quickly.
As far as not being able to talk about this topic rationally until my anger subsides, again I disagree with you. I have a very critical family member and I hate it when someone is constantly trying to criticize and defame someone as you do Dr. Freeman, so I am sure my disgust with your criticism comes out in how I have said things. Every chance you get, you try to get a dig in about what you think about Brother Freeman. I have a reason for pointing out HEF's errors and problems. I perceive that many people look to him as a gold standard of Bible teaching, and I think that is unhealthy. He was not as right as is perceived, and toward the end of his life he hurt a lot of people because of his imbalances. If you are not able to recognize those imbalances, you are vulnerable to them yourself. I have also affirmed the areas in which I believe HEF to be right. However, you say only negative things about the likes of Rick Warren or the Pensacola Revival, and nothing good at all. A critical spirit only states the bad and not the good. True discernment will hold fast to what is good and abstain from every form of evil as scripture tells us to. The man wasn't perfect as his critics make him out to be. Give the same grace to Rick Warren, Sue. I have commented to a friend that it is interesting how people that hate Brother Freeman are the ones who took what he said on par with scripture. Not me. I never got that extreme, although I did immerse myself in his teaching for a while. Some people did not do this, therefore they checked out what he said in the Word of God and base their faith on the promises, which Brother Freeman constantly exhorted the church to do. Brother Freeman said not to take anything he said, wrote, or prophecies at Faith Assembly on par with scripture, as they most certainly were not. However, he was quite defensive when people tried to bring correction. He might have received a few minor corrections, but most of the time toward the end of his life he did not listen to attempts by people to correct him, and as a result he continued in his errors.
People who believe in divine healing base their beliefs on the multitude of promises in the Bible. I believe in divine healing. I just don't believe what HEF added to that teaching, esp. regarding medical science or that God HAS to heal us if all conditions are met and we have faith. And as Brother Freeman taught there are conditions to meet, such as if you don't take care of the temple, your body, God is not obligated to heal you even if you claimed it. If you listen to all Brother Freeman said and not just pick out a phrase here and there, then you would see it is a balanced message. I did listen to all he said, believe me. And it was not balanced. People did not just take it that way, he taught it that way. All he had to do was make the same statement you made-- "People can go to doctors if they want to..." He did not do so, and instead labored the anti-medical science idea, and disaster happened as a result. I think where some of the problems come in is where people took what he said in a legalistic way, which many did not. You see this in all churches, not just Faith Assembly. Like one minister(not Dr. Freeman) said once: "We're all little Jews and Catholics at heart and just want a set of rules to follow." This is where many were wrong, in taking what he said as a rule, and not a principle. Jae, not everyone did this.
It would be nice if you would discuss the issues with the Word, instead of trying to criticize Faith Assembly and Brother Freeman every chance you get. I love to discuss scripture and have done so on this web site. Doing so will automatically cause people to question whether or not HEF really taught the full counsel of God like he claimed.
As far as the passive faith comment, Brother Freeman taught to act on your faith, as I would not call that passive faith. Faith has corresponding actions. I would say that would include accessing medical help when appropriate. Passivity does nothing when one is bleeding to death or has a broken bone that could easily be set by a doctor.
One time I saw you criticized Brother Freeman for talking about his radio with tubes, and said it was pride that he talked about that. I personally found it interesting as it brought back alot of memories. Now, if Brother Freeman would talk about all the money he gave away or the ways he would bless people you would also call it pride and boasting. You can't have it both ways. Brother Freeman taught the church to be generous and to give and to minister to each other and do good to all men. I hope that he was a giver. That would help me to see him in a different light. But the radio thing was still boasting. It was not necessary in that sermon.
We certainly disagree on Brother Freeman and Faith Assembly, but as I have told a friend of mine, Jae loves the Lord and I do appreciate you as a brother in Christ. That is a kind thing to say and I can affirm the same for you. Hopefully someday there will be another fellowship and I will have the opportunity to see you again.
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I know that you mean that as a compliment, and thank you.
However, the idea of another fellowship like that is absolutely repulsive to me. I would never go back to that bondage. The Lord had a reason for putting us under that teaching for a while, and he mercifully brought us out of it. We are to go forward in our walk with Christ, not backward. I am thankful for the good that I received, but in the name of the Lord Jesus I reject the error. Reading some of the posts here reminds me of the bondage I used to be in. It is nice to be free.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1673 is a reply to message #1671] |
Thu, 24 April 2008 04:30 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Moulder said, "I'm already bracing myself lest Jae is so amazed that he feels compelled to take over the shock treatments."
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That one went over my head. I missed where the shock treatments come in. Maybe you mean that we are shocked by the love of God?
However, yes, I am amazed frequently. I find that amazement at the love of God occurs often when I am being filled with the Holy Spirit in a fresh way. Amazed that He loves us in spite of the fact that we don't deserve it, because our sins have offended Him in all His holiness. Amazed at who He is, what He has done for us, that He would love us enough to be tortured to death to pay for our sins. And He proved it by rising from the dead.
I hope that in the midst of all this debate we can still remind ourselves everyday of how amazing the Lord is, and stand in awe of Him.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1675 is a reply to message #1672] |
Thu, 24 April 2008 15:56 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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HI Jae,
I should have been more specific when I said maybe there will be another fellowship where I can see you again. I meant a fellowship like at Chips house. I enjoyed seeing people I had not seen for years. It brought back many good memories for me, although I am not sure everyone felt that way.
What I had at Faith Assembly and the Grand Rapids meeting was not repulsive or bondage to me, rather very liberating and freeing of the things and ways of the world. To know that I don't have to be like the world, speak like the world or do the things the world does is wonderful! I can enjoy life and enjoy the Lord.
And just for the record, I am believing for something better than Faith Assembly as the Lord has better for me. Now I was extremely blessed there but I don't see that I have to stop at what I had there, but can have the best God has for me now!
All this talk about healing has again confirmed to me that I need to base what I believe on God's word, not man's word(whether it be Brother Freeman, you or anybody else.)
Now with saying that I was reading a book about Smith Wigglesworth called "The Secret of His Power." Many of us have heard of Smith, and in his book he said something that I think is quite interesting in light of all the discussion about medical science and healing: Wigglesworth commented on how the ministry of healing would become more difficult. He felt there were too many remedies that people put their trust in, (and how much more today are there.) He felt that the time would come where it will be hard to get anyone to believe at all, and that we are such a drug-conscious society that alot of times the pill bottle is more important that the annointing bottle. This is so true. Brother Freeman once said that people grow in their faith, whether it is healing or other things, and that when he heard that God heals today he didn't run and throw out his heart medicine, until he had the faith in his heart to do so. One other thing about Smith was that he developed his relationhip with Jesus over the years, and in that time he faced not only physical trials, but also persecution by other so-called Christians. They didn't have the confidence in Jesus Smith had.
I guess I would say, Jae, be careful that you don't take on the roll of Job's friends and discourage people from trusting Jesus for their healing. In your zeal to discredit Brother Freeman you may be discouraging saints in different area's of their lives. We are to encourage each other in the faith, and healing is certainly a part of the gospel of Jesus.
And in saying that let me also say healing is not an issue of whether one is saved or not.
Healing by God is taught from Genesis to Revelation and that cannot be debated. If you want to go to the doctor that is between you and the Lord, but you should also give those who choose to trust Jesus totally for their healing the same freedom.
When you look at some of the people running for president they are making a big deal about Medical Science and Health Care. Why? Because I believe it will be one big issue that Anti-christ will use to come on the scene, as well as the financial problems there will be, and the apostate compromising church. Time is short and we need to get an unshakeable faith in Jesus Christ and ALL his promises and provisions to protect and keep us in the days and years(if the Lord tarries) ahead. Matt. 25:1-13
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1678 is a reply to message #1598] |
Thu, 24 April 2008 23:55 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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Hombre and moulder bring up some interesting points, and it very much seems to be that we are saying the same thing only from different perspectives.
Moulder said - My mindset at the time was: to seek help from an evil source was to bring into question my salvation. I don't think I was the only one who thought that way.
You were not the only one – That is how it was taught!!!
The issue as I see it is that it both of these were taught as absolutes and scripture never does that. It is and always has been by man’s reasoning and what seems to be man’s need for self justification (might not be the best way to put it). Or shall one say man’s view of himself to set standards so he can measure and verify that he is succeeding in his walk with the Lord.
We set formula’s, concepts, ideas, and practices in the natural for us to attain. We lean on our natural understanding to set the guard rails on the narrow and straight way we desire to walk on.
Both of these are excellent concepts in scripture and because of the extent they were focused on they became doctrine.
The focus should have been the understanding as to why they were given to us in scripture, instead of the catch all conclusion – they are sin.
Jesus set us free from the bondage of sin – not to bring us back into bondage – If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye are free indeed.
I ask the question then - Where is your Faith?
Going to Doctors – must not be sin – otherwise it would have been addressed in scripture. Yet to stay in that line of thinking brings the conclusion that it is OK ALL the time thus negating the promise we do have in James and the truth that God can heal this body no matter what the circumstances are. We are blessed to have Faith that we have the Promise of the Holy Spirit to guide, teach, lead, comfort, ect. The real concern of any believer is to be walking in the freedom we are promised to be able to hear that still small voice. This is why these issues as these still arise in discussions.
To describe it in a nut shell – we were taught and settled with them. Things fell apart and many have gone back to what we began with and started judging everything that we were and are confronted with. We were graciously bought out of Babylon – the denominational church- and that left many with the situation of where are we to go???
Some gave up and blamed God – How could he allow such deception? They asked.
Others just put things aside and into situations that did not challenge them at all or limited amounts.
And some completely labeled FA and Bro Freeman as a cult, ect and through the baby out with the bath water.
Still others attempted to maintain they walk they were part of and saw some blessings yet not as it was proclaimed and to a certain extent just kinda drifted away, still coveting in their hearts the Joy and blessings the Word and the Spirit of God had brought forth at one time. Knowing that Jesus started the work and shall finish that which He has begun. Yet questions still pop up in their conscience – In the desire to be in fellowship with the Lord.
It’s little foxes such as these that keep rising there heads up that will continually hinder believers until they have the answer from God himself. – HIS WORD.
We were created in the image of GOD and he gave us a mind to use and to reason with. We error when we begin to reason, adding or omitting, to the Word.
Any reasoning that departs from the Word in any way must be bought into subjection to the Word Of God.
As it has been said before in other posts here. One should strive to be led be the Holy Spirit.
I ask the question – Is there anything, in the flesh that we can do to please God??? NO!
In the past we felt as though we were pleasing God by what we DIDN’T do. It was a focus on the outward – dress, zippers, shoes, glasses, doctors, debt, I’m sure the list could go on. Then arises the question – If one is focusing on the outward how can they truly say they are dead to self???
The real issue it the MOTIVE for all that we do – God looks on the hearts. If we feel we are pleasing to God because of what we don’t do – Isn’t this an indication that one is NOT dead to self and is no more that a vain attempt to glorify God by focusing on one standing with him instead of ENJOYING his presence and using Their FAITH and allowing the Holy Spirit to fulfill the ministry He was sent to us for?
Jim
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1679 is a reply to message #1667] |
Fri, 25 April 2008 01:43 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
Member |
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Jae,
Thank you for taking the time to answer as you did.
I asked the questions to see if you still held the WORD in the standing to have the last say over any situation. For that is what it all comes down to. Correct me if I am wrong here. In your reply, #2 in particular it would seem as though you are leaving room for scripture to be in error. So if one doesn’t like what it says – they through it out. It doesn’t really apply.
| jisamazed wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 20:07 |
2. How do you view scripture? All scripture is God-breathed, and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. I don't think any of our current texts (Textus Receptus, Westcott and Hort, Nestle-Aland, etc...) are exact replicas of the original, God-breathed documents, but I do believe that such replicas are existant and that possibly someone will find them someday. We probably have some of them already. I don't buy the "King James only" nonsense.
Scripture is both human and divine in the same way that Jesus is both human and divine. It is fully divine in every aspect, and fully written by human vessels through whom God breathed His word. It is the verbal-plenary view that HEF and most other evangelicals taught.
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| jisamazed wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 20:07 |
JRS said, "I see a qualification here – “with everyone who is walking in the light of Christ”
I would say this needs to be defined then."
We are either in Christ's light or we are not. We are either born again, or we are not. If we are, we are in Christ's light, and we have fellowship one with another, and His blood washes our sins. If our sins are washed by His blood, we are in His light. He is talking about saved people here, not those who have more knowledge (or think they do) than others.
Some "denominational" churches were way ahead of FA in some areas such as this.
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JWBTI - I can really appreciate what you posted and it is so true.
Jea, It sure does seem as though you have an ax to grind about FA and Bro Freeman. You certainly do not miss a chance to drive a nail. The problem is with all the nails you are throwing you fail to actually see how precious much of the teaching was. The foundations it set that cannot be altered because they are based is God’s Word. Yes there was error and for what ever reasons we may possibly never know.
The error I see that you are proposing here I find no difference.
You say that we should put off the negative outlook on the Denominational church and have fellowship with them. If this is what God is calling you to do then PTL, but to persuade others when it is direct contradiction to the WORD.
You mentioned that HEF did not teach unity of Spirit, Yet I think if you would research that out, he did and did it well.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ones mind is only renewed through the WORD.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Phil 2:2 Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The unity you seek can only come from unity through the WORD. Apart from that it is no more than a false unity.
2 Thess 1:8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
What are we to do with this verse? It seems to be rather specific – the ones that know not God (unbelievers) – That obey not the gospel (believers)
Jim
2 Thess 1: 10-12
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1680 is a reply to message #1679] |
Fri, 25 April 2008 02:37 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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JRS said, "In your reply, #2 in particular it would seem as though you are leaving room for scripture to be in error."
Are you kidding? How did you arrive at that conclusion? I could not have made it any clearer that ALL scripture is God-breathed. When I say that scripture is fully divine, yet fully written by man, that is the basic, orthodox view of scripture espoused by most true Christians, including HEF. The fact that there was a human element in scripture does not mean that it has any error. The Bible in its original manuscripts is inerrant. Period. The Lord used human vessels to bring it about. OT writers wrote the histories of the Kings. David wrote songs. Prophets spoke from God to the people verbally. Gospel writers described the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Paul wrote letters to dear friends. The Lord used all of these people and means to breath out his word to us. I never said that scripture could be in error and have NEVER believed that. I have dedicated myself to studying it because it is God's word through and through.
I'm just not sure which of the manuscripts that we know about are the original ones. HEF and Jim B used to tout the Textus Receptus, but I don't think that it is the exact replica of the originals anymore like I used to. I prefer to look at the Nestle-Aland text when I consult the Greek, but it is not perfect either. (For those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about, don't worry about it, you don't need to know. It's a Geek, I mean Greek, thing).
The error I see that you are proposing here I find no difference.
You say that we should put off the negative outlook on the Denominational church and have fellowship with them. If this is what God is calling you to do then PTL, but to persuade others when it is direct contradiction to the WORD.
JRS, how is it a direct contradiction to the Word to fellowship with other brothers and sisters in Christ? In regards to His relationship to them and our relationship to them, God does not care if their church belongs to a denomination. Our place in Christ rests in Christ alone, not in whether or not their church is part of an organization. Otherwise, people could not have fellowship with anyone who still goes to a FA church. This is the whole point I am trying to make with this thread. We are not better than any other brother, nor are we above fellowshipping with him, just because of the church that he goes to.
I believe strongly that HEF would never have gotten into the problems that you have mentioned had he not isolated himself from other churches and Christians whom he thought were less than him.
Jea, It sure does seem as though you have an ax to grind about FA and Bro Freeman. You certainly do not miss a chance to drive a nail. The problem is with all the nails you are throwing you fail to actually see how precious much of the teaching was. The foundations it set that cannot be altered because they are based is God’s Word. Yes there was error and for what ever reasons we may possibly never know.
No, I affirm the truth that I received from FA and HEF, and have done so in several differnt posts on this forum. Personally, I think that Jim Brenneman did a better job of expounding scripture than HEF did, but I realized that he learned from him. I don't reject any foundational teaching. I believe that HEF was anointed as a theology teacher, and he did a good job at it. Foundational theology is important. However, even HEF moved away from some of that theology (such as eternal security) later in his life.
The unity you seek can only come from unity through the WORD. Apart from that it is no more than a false unity.
The unity that I seek comes by the Holy Spirit like scripture says-- "endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." It comes in Christ, per John 17:21. And, yes, scripture guides us to make sure the unity is in truth as well. If we refuse to recognize the fellowship that we have with a brother because he does not line up with everything we believe he should be doing, we miss the point. If that is the case, no one should fellowship with anyone else, because we all have areas in which we don't line up with scripture. We are still growing. Whether or not a Christian or church is a part of denomination has nothing to do with it. Whether or not they are truly in Christ has everything to do with it.
2 Thess 1:8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
What are we to do with this verse? It seems to be rather specific – the ones that know not God (unbelievers) – That obey not the gospel (believers)
Agreed. I'm not sure why you thought that I would have an issue with that verse. I believe that those in Christ will spend eternity with Him, and those who are not in Christ will spend eternity away from Him, in everlasting fire (the tense in this verse is present, meaning an ongoing destruction and fire, not a temporary one). Hence I disagree with the Michael the Disciple poster who advances the doctrine of annihilation. It simply is not scriptural.
Either I am not making myself clear, or you are jumping to conclusions about my theology. I believe strongly in the power of the good news, in heaven and hell, and that Jesus is the only way to the Father. No compromise. Also, most "denominational" believers with whom I fellowship do not compromise those matters. We have fellowship with them. Those who do not believe the central truths of Christianity are likely not really saved to begin with.
[Updated on: Fri, 25 April 2008 03:16]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1687 is a reply to message #1678] |
Fri, 25 April 2008 21:09 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Good post, Hombre. I would add that many religious groups have done so over the centuries, and FA is but one example. They had their own unspoken rules and unhealthy peer pressure, but many other churches have done the same in their own way. That not only includes some Christian groups, but also false religions. Look at radical Islam. A woman was beaten to death in Kabul a couple of years ago because her bare arm showed while she was driving. The same mentality could be applied to communist states or the workplace culture in some businesses in America. The lesson to be learned is that people will resort to that kind of bondage if they are not filled with the Holy Spirit and guarding their heart frequently. Even a church that preaches against legalism and conformity can still become that way. Pride and fear are the source of it. Paul and Peter addressed this problem in their letters because even the early church had to be warned against going to either extreme.
For 2,000 years believers have wrestled with how to be holy and faithful to scripture without being legalistic. Few have found the perfect balance. What we do know is that it won't happen without having a heart to do the will of God. "Sacrifices and offerings you did not desire (legalism). Rather, I come to do your will, Oh God. Your law is written on my heart." We must have a passionate love for the Lord if we are to rise above either permissiveness or legalism. Otherwise, our motivation will be wrong when we read scripture, and we will have a difficult time knowing the will of God or walking in it without being filled with the Holy Spirit.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1690 is a reply to message #1678] |
Sat, 26 April 2008 12:13 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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Jae, I had to ask. I’ve been cornered before from this very same wording, or at least close to it, in it they heavily lean on the idea “written by man” or “we do not actually have the originals” you can take it from there. As far as I’m concerned, when someone has a loophole so scripture can be explained away, there is no discussion.
I must say this that the premise for your argument is valid and I do agree with you. Yet I do not agree with the conclusion you are drawing as to rectify it. I find too may times in scripture about the differences of light and darkness. It defines what light is and what Spirit is. Even towards ones you are calling as saved there seems to be other conditions they are not fulfilling – thus passages like II Thess -. And the passage – many are called, few are chosen -. There can be only one conclusion drawn that many can call upon the Lord and his name and without the work of the Holy Spirit it is no more than another form of WORKS.
| Hombre wrote on Fri, 25 April 2008 09:55 |
This is a hard balance, to be sure, and I think that the ONLY way to achieve it is by following the leading of the Holy Spirit.....which ironically, seemed to be what Hobart was always pushing...to know the voice of the Lord for yourself...and to that end I cannot, nor will not blame him or the rest of the ministry for the legalism that ensued, for if people had followed that advice, and used their copious notes to enable their personal relationship with the Lord, perhaps it wouldn't have come to the end it did....
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Like your post Hombre and yours that followed Jae.
Got to run today – not a lot of time, I what to leave you with a question. I started asking this years back. Because of the mentality that has been set and the examples we always seem to follow (no how much we desired to be separate form the denominational church).
Is our concept of church itself correct???? Or because of our preconceived notions we hold onto, resulting in fostering the issues we are discussing???
Jim
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1708 is a reply to message #1690] |
Sun, 27 April 2008 23:34 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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I will answer your post item by item in this case because I perceive that we are having a constructive discussion. 
1. Jae, I had to ask. I’ve been cornered before from this very same wording, or at least close to it, in it they heavily lean on the idea “written by man” or “we do not actually have the originals” you can take it from there. As far as I’m concerned, when someone has a loophole so scripture can be explained away, there is no discussion.
There is no loophole in the doctrine of inerrancy that I have explained above. Scripture is completely divine and completely human, just as Christ is completely divine and completely human (any variation in either direction in the doctrine of Christ is heresy). Because scripture is completely divine, it can have no error. Not one jot or tittle will pass from it. The original words still exist in writing today, but I don't think any one text captures the original. I suspect it is a combination of Nestle/Aland and TR. That's only the NT. The OT is more certain. However, even the few differences between NT texts are minimal and do not have any bearing on any crucial passages in scripture. Some early church fathers attest to the end of Mark 16, so that is not an issue in my mind. There is no loophole and no way to diminish the absolute, God-breathed nature of scripture. We can have confidence that what God has spoken has been preserved to us for the past 2,000 years.
2. I must say this that the premise for your argument is valid and I do agree with you. Yet I do not agree with the conclusion you are drawing as to rectify it. I find too may times in scripture about the differences of light and darkness. It defines what light is and what Spirit is. Even towards ones you are calling as saved there seems to be other conditions they are not fulfilling – thus passages like II Thess -. And the passage – many are called, few are chosen -. There can be only one conclusion drawn that many can call upon the Lord and his name and without the work of the Holy Spirit it is no more than another form of WORKS.
I'm not sure why you have an issue with my conclusion that we have fellowship with all other true believers in Christ. Of course we do. We automatically do. It is not something that we make happen, it is something that we already have. This is not about trying to have fellowship with unbelievers. This is about sharing Christ in koinonia with all who call upon His name from a pure heart. You are not superior to other Christians, and neither am I. Hombre might be. (just kidding, couldn't resist). Does the Lord consider your church to be superior to another church that loves Him dearly but does not have certain teaching? Maybe they have strengths that yours does not have, and vice-versa. There is no basis for avoiding them. You have to develop a relationship with them, and they might receive some correction from your church, and vice-versa. There might be some churches that are more pure than others, but that is all the more reason to fellowship with TRUE believers in those churches, so we can bring truth and life into them. False churches are a different animal, detached from Christ. Even then, we can try to bring the good news to them like Wigglesworth did.
Any sweeping statements that you say about "denominations" could be said about some people at FA. Any praise you give to FA could be said about some "denominational" and charismatic churches. My original premise in this thread was the FA was basically just another denomination, and HEF was its founder.
I am strongly convinced, with passion, that HEF and FA would not have become so sick had they not isolated themselves from other ministries and churches the way they did. If he had allowed more ministries to speak into his life and bring correction, perhaps not so many tragedies would have occured. Conversely, he might have had more positive input into other churches and groups.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1735 is a reply to message #1710] |
Thu, 01 May 2008 03:24 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Michael the Disciple said, "Foundational theology is important. However, even HEF moved away from some of that theology (such as eternal security) later in his life.
I never knew this. I discussed the issue of eternal security on this board and I dont remember anyone saying Bro Freeman renounced it. What tape can that be found on?"
Michael, I need to clarify the difference between HEF's formal, systematic theology, which he expressed in his theology class, and his informal, mundane theology, which he taught every week. There was some disconnectness between the two, especially later in his ministry. Formally, he taught the historical Reformed position on eternal security in his class. The born-again believer is changed forever and belongs to God eternally, and will not turn his back on God. However, HEF's informal theology expressed a more Arminian view, that a true believer can lose his salvation by turning his back on God. For example, he said at least once, "You might even lose your salvation if you go to the arm of the flesh (which we all know means, 'use medical science or doctors for healing')." He talked a lot about losing one's salvation in the last 5 years of his ministry. No one who really believes in eternal security would use that term (including the writers of scripture- it cannot be found in the Bible). He also used phrases such as "make it into heaven" or "make it into the kingdom", which are contrary to his formal teaching on salvation by grace. Justification by grace was a doctrine that identified him as not being Roman Catholic, and most of the time that he referred to it he was trying to refute Catholicism. However, in his everyday theology, he seemed to imply a faith-and-works salvation later in his life.
I have a hard time believing that HEF really believed in eternal security in the last years of his life based on the statements he made. He never formally renounced it. He simply preached the opposite of eternal security as demonstrated by the above comments and many, many others. I take theology very seriously and pondered this issue for a long time before coming to this conclusion. In most other areas of theology, he was very solid and did not change. However, eternal security, the primacy of grace, his ecclesiology and eschatology all seemed to change by the end of his life.
I am no expert on his theology, and if someone can provide some patterns of his teaching later in his life to the contrary, please mention them. I don't think that he stated that Christians are eternally secure even once in his last 4-5 years, but if someone has evidence contrariwise, let me know.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1736 is a reply to message #1690] |
Thu, 01 May 2008 03:56 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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JRS said, "Is our concept of church itself correct???? Or because of our preconceived notions we hold onto, resulting in fostering the issues we are discussing???"
Jim, when I look at scripture I see a basic concept of the church, with a lot of flexibility as to how it plays out. For example, Paul emphasized the need for churches to be automomous and indigenous-- that is, it should be people and pastored by those who live in the geographical area where the church was located. Church itself was simply a group of 'called out ones': ekklesia. It is a community of believers that functioned like a human body. It was certainly much more than a teaching center, so in that regards, yes, I would say that HEF got it wrong in that regards. The group in GR of which I was a part had some understanding of community, but we were severely dysfunctional in other ways. In America in general I think we don't understand community very well, but I won't go there right now.
Based on my understanding of NT history, some of the churches were quite different from each other. Some met in houses, some in synogogues, others in large buildings. Most were in houses at the time, although the houses of wealthy people were large and were structured to accomodate hundreds of people in some cases. Some, such as in Ephesus, were actually a conglomeration of several congregations in the city. When Paul wrote to the Ephesians, it wasn't just one congregation. It was a group of them that still fellowshipped together as one whenever they could. Smaller churches together equalled "the church at Ephesus." Other churches, such as that in Thessolonika, were single congregations. Different churches faced different issues and required different interventions. Some needed a strong apostolic presence to come in to town and address serious problems. Others were able to solve their own problems without that kind of input. Most of the people could not read, so they would rely on the leader of the church to do so. They would hear the scripture read, and then discuss it. Some were racially mixed together, others were homogeneous (everyone was alike). Many of them included slaves, who often became leaders in the church, causing some awkwardness (Philemon/Onesimus?).
When I hear people say, "the early church did thus and so", I wonder if they are aware that the early church was diverse, and many congregations did things differently from each other. It is better to say, "Some early churches did thus and so." There was the core apostolic teaching as expressed in the scriptures, of course. That was a unifying element. But there was some freeplay regarding church structure, depending on the needs of the church.
To make a long answer short, I think that HEF's teaching on the church had some accurate insights, but was incomplete. There is a sense of a worldwide brotherhood of believers that can be called "ekklesia", or church. The called out ones. The local church should be autonomous, and I agree with him on that matter. But man-made labels and categories (such as "denominations" or "we are spirit-filled and they are not") are a hindrance to God's plans on earth if they divide His children and keep them away from each other unnecessarily. He wants all of us to be one, not just a local assembly (John 17:21).
[Updated on: Thu, 01 May 2008 03:56]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1737 is a reply to message #1736] |
Thu, 01 May 2008 04:55 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
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| Quote: |
Isamazed
I have a hard time believing that HEF really believed in eternal security in the last years of his life based on the statements he made. He never formally renounced it. He simply preached the opposite of eternal security as demonstrated by the above comments and many, many others. I take theology very seriously and pondered this issue for a long time before coming to this conclusion. In most other areas of theology, he was very solid and did not change. However, eternal security, the primacy of grace, his ecclesiology and eschatology all seemed to change by the end of his life.
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I started listening to HEF in 1980 I believe. It was at least 3 years before I had an inkling he believed in once saved always saved. At first I did not believe it. A Faith Assembly satellite Church Pastored by Russell Tardo was the way I found out.
My wife talked to Russell who told her he was OSAS. I dont think I would have believed it but he said HE had taught it at Faith Assembly himself.
Yet after visiting Faith Assembly some 8 or 10 times and listening to around 100 tapes I had not picked up on it. Predestination/election yes but I never connected that to OSAS with him. In particular the tape called "The Potter And The Clay" he indicated you could have been predestined for salvation but if you turned God would make ANOTHER VESSEL out of you unto destruction.
Another issue he seemed to be contradictory imo was water baptism. On one hand he taught there was no difference between a Christian and a disciple rightly so. He taught the absolutes of discipleship in a very convincing way.
Then in Apostolic baptism in Jesus name he taught on one hand it was NOT essential to salvation. On the other he taught you could not really be a disciple unless you were baptized in Jesus name.
The same thing concerning the Spirit baptism. On one hand he said it was subsequent to salvation. On the other he said the Lord spoke to him concerning the baptism from James "as the body without the spirit is dead" and stopped.
You mentioned his eschatology seemed to change. Can you give an example of that? I know he taught the first fruits Manchild rapture at one time. Did he change?
[Updated on: Thu, 01 May 2008 04:59]
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1747 is a reply to message #1736] |
Thu, 01 May 2008 17:51 |
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william
Messages: 1466
Registered: January 2006 |
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jisamazed: | Quote: |
To make a long answer short, I think that HEF's teaching on the church had some accurate insights, but was incomplete. There is a sense of a worldwide brotherhood of believers that can be called "ekklesia", or church. The called out ones. The local church should be autonomous, and I agree with him on that matter. But man-made labels and categories (such as "denominations" or "we are spirit-filled and they are not") are a hindrance to God's plans on earth if they divide His children and keep them away from each other unnecessarily. He wants all of us to be one, not just a local assembly (John 17:21).
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No one seems to be arguing that what we got was "complete". I know that there may be some, mostly isolated, individuals that are stuck in the mid-eighties, but this isn't the case with most of us. It has been twenty years for crying out loud! FA wasn't like some council that closed the canon on revealed truth! Look no further than the current FA and you'll see an evolving assembly that doesn't see the need for conformity to the old FA days. Even in an ideal situation we would expect growth, or a continued building upon the foundations and shell once started. No one would consider a complete rewrite of the original blueprints if the basic plan was sound. People change, culture changes... we might even need that extra bedroom addition to accommodate new members, but if the foundation is sure, we would not bulldoze it all down.
Having said that, I will agree that FA wasn't the perfect idealistic standard to end all standards, but it was the best that I've seen, or have seen since. Which is why I'm not the demolition expert that you seem to want to be. The house might not be what we envisioned back then, but I see no need to completely start from scratch. Even those mislaid rafters can be used if we are of a mind to straighten them up!
In keeping with the building analogy I see that there was a bit of wood hay and stubble that needs to be replaced with more durable material, but that is a far cry from tearing everything down and starting over. I hope that doesn't mis-categorize your position, but that is my perception of what you seem to be trying to do.
Speaking of perceptions, I just interrupted this note to read capturedbygrace's post in her application thread, and she seems to be one who has suffered much as a result of her FA experience, and to my mind at least, seems to have an attitude that all of these things have worked together to produce good in her life. Now maybe it is just a semantic difference between your position and hers, but it seems to me that those experiences have not made her bitter. She doesn't seem to be blaming the message or the messenger, even though I'm sure that both the message and the messenger played a huge part in her experiences. You may or may not have experienced trials that can be compared to hers, but if your life hasn't included the depths of despair that can be seen in her experience, why does it seem that your words would be more appropriate coming from her lips?
I say all of the above with the full knowledge that I may be way off base in the way I am reading your posts... perhaps it can be chalked up to the way different personality types choose to express themselves... idunno.
Btw, I agree with you concerning your assessment of the flexibility that each local church has, with reference to how it deals with its problems.
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Thu, 01 May 2008 17:57]
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1766 is a reply to message #1747] |
Sat, 03 May 2008 04:07 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Moulder and Hombre, I will try to respond to your posts together with only one of mine for the sake of brevity.
1. Regarding the balance between the preservation of the saints and our responsibility to endure: Yes, HEF taught the balance in his theology series, and apparently in the Hebrew series, according to Moulder. In fact, the theology series is where I first learned to embrace that kind of paradox in scripture. HEF taught it well at that time. God is absolutely sovereign, but man is free to choose. They are equally true. Other theologians have also taught the paradox. But HEF clearly taught eternal security. Those who are truly regenerated will persevere to the end. My concern is that he neglected to teach the eternally secure side later in his life, and his emphasis on the responsibility of the believer essentially amounted to eternal insecurity.
This not just doctrinal pickiness. It has very real implications for the flock. If a pastor teaches eternal insecurity, many of the sheep will feel eternally insecure. A lot of sincere, genuine saints who sat under that message would struggle in an unhealthy way with condemnation, wondering if they are saved, works mentality, etc... because of the lack of understanding of grace and God's preservation of them. Telling people that they might "lose their salvation" if they do such and such simply is not compatible with eternal security. That statement is not part of the paradox. It is altogether a contradiction and is unhealthy.
2. Moulder said, "Having said that, I will agree that FA wasn't the perfect idealistic standard to end all standards, but it was the best that I've seen, or have seen since. Which is why I'm not the demolition expert that you seem to want to be. The house might not be what we envisioned back then, but I see no need to completely start from scratch. Even those mislaid rafters can be used if we are of a mind to straighten them up!"
Moulder, I like the building analogy, and I agree that we can straighten some mislaid rafters. I am not attempting in any way to destroy sound building structure. Quite the opposite. My concern is that if we do not recognize HEF's errors or wrong attitudes for what they were, we are vulnerable to repeat them. We start to build a house on poor structure. It is one thing to say that he made some mistakes. It is another to state what the mistakes were and how those mistakes affected people. We disagree sometimes on what the mistakes were, but if we see it a certain way, we need to be free to call it and let others comment, which is all I'm trying to do. I thought that was what we were supposed to do in this forum.
3. Moulder said, "Speaking of perceptions, I just interrupted this note to read capturedbygrace's post in her application thread, and she seems to be one who has suffered much as a result of her FA experience, and to my mind at least, seems to have an attitude that all of these things have worked together to produce good in her life. Now maybe it is just a semantic difference between your position and hers, but it seems to me that those experiences have not made her bitter. She doesn't seem to be blaming the message or the messenger, even though I'm sure that both the message and the messenger played a huge part in her experiences. You may or may not have experienced trials that can be compared to hers, but if your life hasn't included the depths of despair that can be seen in her experience, why does it seem that your words would be more appropriate coming from her lips?"
Bitterness is an ugly thing, and I check myself frequently to see if I have let any creep in. I do not believe that I have. I am able to affirm what I believe HEF got right and did well. Prove all things, hold fast to what is good, abstain from any form of evil. A critical or bitter spirit only looks at the bad, not the good, the bones and not the meat. I have attempted to acknowledge both.
I am alarmed, however, at what I perceive to be Freemanism still at work. Freemanism doesn't claim HEF to be perfect. It does elevate him above other teachers of the word as if he has so much more truth and authority than Chuck Swindoll, Jack Hayford, John MacArthur, Wayne Grudem or many others (I'm not interested in hearing about their errors here because that is beside the point). No man is perfect, therefore all are suseptible to preaching error from time to time. Teachers need other teachers to keep them in check. I point out HEF's problems because it is important to see that he preached and did things unscripturally just as much as any other man of God. In fact, his later problems had much more dire consequences than the other men I have mentioned.
I realize that in the process of taking HEF off the pedestal, it seems that I am bashing him. I accept the risk of being misunderstood. It will make some people mad, especially those who have not yet come to grips with the reality and severity of his problems. It made me mad when others confronted me with his problems a few years ago, but that is what helped me to get honest about the whole thing. I had to wrestle with the discrepancy between what I saw in scripture and what HEF and others taught at times. And I could no longer ignore the red flags that went up in me when he made certain statements or exhibited certain attitudes.
The attitude of superiority toward other believers is my greatest concern for this current group of posters. I believe that HEF had it and passed it on to those he taught. I see the same attitude sometimes in this forum. Hombre, to be honest, some of your statements and your signature smack of "superior attitude" to me. The Lord knows your heart and I don't, but you don't seem to try to hide your attitude much.
If I am missing it, I trust the Lord will correct me as he has promised. But I hope that you guys can give me a little bit of credit here. I have put a lot of prayer, thought, study and agony into this matter over the years. That doesn't mean I am right, but don't assume that I make these statements flippantly or bitterly.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1768 is a reply to message #1766] |
Sat, 03 May 2008 11:29 |
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william
Messages: 1466
Registered: January 2006 |
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jisamazed: I see the same attitude sometimes in this forum. Hombre, to be honest, some of your statements and your signature smack of "superior attitude" to me.
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What? You dont't like his tagline??? It's only one of the best taglines...eeever!!!
If he falls away I've got first dibs on it.
moulder
[Updated on: Sat, 03 May 2008 11:32]
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1773 is a reply to message #1767] |
Sun, 04 May 2008 02:14 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Michael the Disciple said, "Well I do recognize the first two names you mention. Since you dont want to hear about their errors suffice it to say I believe HEF was a shining light in comparison.
Yet Bro. Freeman did fall short of the true doctrine of the Apostles."
Michael, in light of your own theological problems, which I know you don't believe you have, you are not really in a position to critique those men objectively. I would rather listen teachers like them who have some humility than teachers without those errors who are prideful and still have errors of their own. Humility is just as important as truth for a man of God. A man who is in error but humble will learn and come to the truth. A man who speaks the truth, or at least claims to do so, but has no humility cannot be corrected. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
[Updated on: Sun, 04 May 2008 02:21]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1775 is a reply to message #1766] |
Sun, 04 May 2008 02:36 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Hombre said, "I don't think I'm superior to anything or anybody, but I seem to possess this sort of recognition of things that are stupid, and when I point them out to others, sometimes those who are stupid become offended."
Fair enough. But if you dish it out, you have to be able to take it.
"......I'd also like to add that my personality is not for sale or being offered up at this time for imprisonment within the narrow confines of what any particular person deems to be politically correct, genteel or polite. I do not posses the sort of hospitality of my Southern brothers, I am raw, unplugged and best with those who have no stomach for facades."
Sure, be yourself. Raw and unplugged is fine if it is seasoned with grace. I don't like facades, either, which is why I'm straightforward about my concerns. But a fool says everything that is on his mind, whereas a wise man ponders before he answers.
Often, the insults and "raw" language (calling people stupid) become a substitute for genuine scriptural inquiry and reasonable thinking. Anyone can be opinionated. In the words of Wayne Kirkpatrick, "Truth is more than an imposing point of view."
"...and BTW...the Lord does know my heart, and He knows that this is all in good humor......unlike some who don't read me correctly....."
Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm taking this thread too seriously and need to lighten up. I have to have a sense of humor, being the father of 4 daughters 9-15 years old. Humor is a universal language. After all, when the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.
Besides, nothing you can say can bother me. I used to teach middle school. I have skin thicker than Donald Trump's hairpiece.
[Updated on: Sun, 04 May 2008 02:50]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1822 is a reply to message #1775] |
Thu, 08 May 2008 03:30 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Hombre said, "...are you inferring that I am a fool?
...well, of course you are, I would have to be stupid myself to not see that. But go on, let's see if you can become the subject of your own brand of medicine."
No, actually I was just quoting that scripture because it seemed relavent to the discussion. Jesus told us firmly that to call a brother a fool (rebellious person) is to be in danger of hell fire. Therefore, I don't call you a fool in any serious sense.
But don't be a fool in any other sense, either, except a fool for Christ (which does not include calling people names).
"Wow, that was quick. Let's see, first you inferred that I was a fool, and now you're telling me that calling people names is a substitute for genuine scriptural authority, which you seem to be quite adept at using for the purpose of belittling others yourself. I beg your pardon. We are to never use God's holy Scripture to belittle others. Expose their errors or attitudes, yes, but never belittle. If I have done so I will repent. I don't think that I have.
...perhaps it's time that you review Matthew 7:3-5. Done. It is an important and convicting passage, and my whole point in this thread was that FA and HEF did a lot of judging of "denominations" without recognizing their own faults. Therefore, there is no basis for the attitude of superiority from any of us. Matthew 7:1-5 is what I've been trying to relate in the first place.
..may I add conversely: 'although an imposing view may be substituted for truth, truth is by it's very nature, imposing'."
True, but it is also freeing. The truth sets free. However, humans use it to bind by mixing it with opinions or outright error.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1874 is a reply to message #1766] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 16:24 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
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I don't see how pointing out these mens serious errors you think it isn't important. When men who call themselves preachers of the word blatantly tell people the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today, and tell people praying in tongues is not for today, they are robbing the body of Christ of some things that Jesus felt was quite important, such as to be endued with power from on high when the Holy Spirit would come. Acts 1:4-8. Now not all the men you mentioned hold to this, but at least a couple of them do. I don't see how they have received any correction from other christians in this area and humbled themselves to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
To call some of the posters on this sight Freemanites is a joke. Obviously by some of their remarks you can see they aren't, if you weren't so blinded by your hatred of Brother Freeman and Faith Assembly. Not one person on this site comes across as a Freemanite. Some people do not have to take Dr. Freeman off the pedestal, because he is not on a pedestal.
I don't see very many ministers today warning the sheep of the errors that have come upon us. It has been the frog in the water with the shallow, compromising churches of today. Because Dr. Freeman tried to preach holiness and separation from the ways of this world he is criticized. For example, the shoes with the stripes, painter pants, and bomber jackets. There happened to be an article written in a major news magazine saying exactly what Dr. Freeman taught: this was the dress of the homosexuals, so they would recognize each other. I suppose today a minister would be scared to warn the flock of dressing like sodomites. I must say I have only been in one church where the women dressed modestly enough where I could take someone I know (a family member) with extreme lust problems without him lusting in his mind. Why aren't the preachers of today telling the women to stop dressing like prostitutes, and telling the men to respect the house of God and stop wearing their shorts and sandles to church! People have more respect for the Oval Office than they do the house of God. The church is becoming nothing more than a social club where everyone can do what ever they want and instead of tallking about the word taught, they talk about what program they watched on TV. My father was of the same generation of Brother Freeman and until the day he died, he never wore a pair of blue jeans in public. Even when he was sick with cancer my mother would help him change into a nice pair of pants. So criticize Brother Freeman all you want for having told people to look respectable when they went out in public, since they represented Jesus Christ.
And where are the shepherds who are sounding the trumpet of the deceptions out there? Maybe since we don't want to offend someone we can just be quiet. When you look around all you see is compromising ministers who are afraid to warn the house of God of the errors out there. Instead they have every wind of doctine in their libraries. The Emergent Church movement is growing bigger every day, but who is sounding the trumpet? We have ministers, such as Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Richard Foster, John Arnott, Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner and many others who have brought serious errors and deceptions in the church, not to mention the false Apostolic/Prophetic movement. There are people who have to watch such things as the "Wild at Heart" video to teach men how to be men by watching "R" rated movies. Whatever happened to teaching men to men by the preaching of the Word? Everybody has to do the 40 Days of Purpose or Alpha or some other book study in their churches. Again, there seems to be a lack of anointed, fresh bread teaching today.
There are a few ministers out there today who are sounding the trumpet, although it is hard to find them. Like one minister I heard say recently: God does not wink at unbelief. And one other thing he said was: It is dishonest if we Pastors do not warn you of what is to come. There is coming a one world government and one world religious system and if people aren't discerning they will follow people like Rick Warren right into it.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1881 is a reply to message #1874] |
Thu, 15 May 2008 04:03 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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I can see that you are still in need of that vacation.
What you wrote is really convoluted on a number of levels. I am concerned that you are showing signs of irrational thinking. I value your freedom to give input, but you seem to have some sort of obsession with attacking others while trying to defend HEF at all costs. Yes, I would call that Freemanism.
I have stated my agreement with HEF on several different teachings of his whenever the opportunity has arisen. I have stated what I believe was helpful about his ministry, especially in the earlier years of it. I try to take the good with the bad. However, you have NEVER said anything good about the likes of Rick Warren or John Elderidge. Not once. Such is characteristic of a critical spirit and false discernment.
I enjoyed Richard Foster's book "Celebration of Discipline". I can dismiss the weird prayer techniques and affirm the good teaching he gave on the spiritual disciplines without getting fearful that he might be some sort of New Age teacher. His approach to prayer is no weirder than hitting people when praying for them. I am reading Rick Warren's book, "The Purpose Driven Church", right now. He is not the compromiser and salesman that his critics make him out to be. He actually has a pretty strong word and some encouraging faith testimonies. He just knows how to talk to people at their level. Sure, he could emphasize prayer and the spiritual gifts more than he does. So could a lot of people. Mike Bickel is a man of prayer. He has helped to stand against the homosexual spirits and promiscuous spirits attacking the church. He has provoked many people to seek the Lord with all their hearts without compromise. I'm not sure what you consider to be serious error, but none of the men you mentioned (although I'm not sure about John Arnott- I know little about him) teach anything that keep people from being saved. They don't teach heresy about who God is, who Jesus is or how Jesus redeemed us. They call people to faith and repentence. They don't tell people that they might lose their salvation if they go to the arm of the flesh (go to doctors). Some of them are further along than others in their understanding of the Word, but none of them teach deadly error that I know of.
There are plenty of men of God who expose the error of the emerging church and other errors. They might not all write books about them, but they are faithful to the word of God, and when the error comes up they address it. You really need to get out more.
If you look in the context of my statement, I said that I did not want to discuss those men's errors at the time because it would distract from the point I was trying to make. I knew that if I even mentioned a preacher's name, someone would pick at him and get off topic. Therefore I made the statement about not discussing their errors at this time. The distraction happened, anyway, because of that mentality that looks for anything that seems bad and picks at people.
Regarding the statements about "sodomite clothes" and dressing formally at church, that is a classic example of what happens when a preacher mixes his opinion with the word of God. HEF had no business adding his opinion and then calling it the Word. He should have perceived that the younger generation shows respect differently than his generation, and there are different cultural understandings regarding what is formal or informal than there were 50 years ago. There are plenty of churches in which women dress modestly, but there might always be visitors or young Christians who don't know better yet.
Regarding prophecy, hold fast to what is good, and abstain from any form of evil, as the Scripture says.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1892 is a reply to message #1881] |
Fri, 16 May 2008 16:00 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
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I am sure that with your little sarcastic remarks, name calling
and insinuations you make, you must have gotten from John Eldridge and his Wild at Heart video, with his blessings on watching R rated movies to learn how to be men, because you sure didn't get it from the Holy Spirit. It's certainly one thing to disagree with someone, but I think the name calling and demeaning someone is not exactly Christlike.
I just don't see how agreeing with Dr. Freeman is "defending him at all costs." If I wanted to do that I would certainly quote him more, but I have not done that, but just so you can again say I am a Freemanite: I believe that man taught the word of God, not only in his early ministry but at the end of his ministry.
I did not know that I needed to say something nice about someone before I say they teach error and deception, so let me say that Rich Warren has said some good things in his book right along with compromise and error. Any man who says he is a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and uses a paraphrase such as "The Message" like Rick Warren does, must not have any discernment and is only trying to use a version to get his agenda across. And I would highly suggest you do a little research on his church growth movement and associations he has with some Emergent church leaders and even New Age people as well as the business marketing guru, Peter Drucker. His wife is speaking at an Emergent Church conference, so maybe he is more Emergent than you would like to admit.
In these last days there will be many false prophets and apostles out there deceiving multitudes, and I must say we are certainly seeing that happen right before our eyes. These people have an agenda, and they have new definitions for old biblical terms.
Since I do not have a church to go to right now I must do whatever the Lord has me do to not fall for all the deception that is out there and to rely on Jesus to preserve me.
There are plenty of men of God who expose the error of the emerging church and other errors. They might not all write books about them, but they are faithful to the word of God, and when the error comes up they address it. You really need to get out more. Could you please name 5 churches here in Grand Rapids that are preaching the whole council of God, not having their rock and roll, ear blasting music, preaching on holiness, warning the sheep of the errors, preaching faith, preaching the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, not having every wind of doctrine in their library? I would like to visit such a church, but have not found any in GR yet. And I would also suggest you get out more and maybe your eyes would be opened to how hard it really is to find a message of the crucified life and holiness and preaching on the blood of Jesus and death to self and preaching against sin. After all we don't want to offend those who give money, do we?
The distraction happened, anyway, because of that mentality that looks for anything that seems bad and picks at people. Thank God Paul and other ministers didn't have this mentality or error would never be exposed.
Regarding the statements about "sodomite clothes" and dressing formally at church, that is a classic example of what happens when a preacher mixes his opinion with the word of God. HEF had no business adding his opinion and then calling it the Word. He should have perceived that the younger generation shows respect differently than his generation, and there are different cultural understandings regarding what is formal or informal than there were 50 years ago. There are plenty of churches in which women dress modestly, but there might always be visitors or young Christians who don't know better yet. Dr. Freeman had every right to preach against worldly dress. You are sounding quite Emergent with your statements about different cultures and time. Holiness is holiness, and it doesn't matter what age it is. When a man at Sunshine church had to look away from the stage when someone was singing because they were so seductively dressed I think something is horribly wrong. Too bad the preachers of today are so cowardly and afraid to offend some paying member because their women are dressed like whores. I kinda think that when Peter and Paul and the other disciples and apostles preached they shared what they felt was his opinion. I don't think they just stood up there and read the Old Testament, but rather exponded on how to apply the words of Jesus in their life. Besides the bible does talk about modest dress and holiness. Like I said, people have more respect for the Oval Office than they do the house of God.
I guess after all, we can all do whatever we feel is right in our own eyes because we are free, no legalism for us!
Regarding prophecy, hold fast to what is good, and abstain from any form of evil, as the Scripture says.
I also have the right and responsibility to judge people on what they teach and promote.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1894 is a reply to message #1598] |
Sun, 18 May 2008 14:34 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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I find it interesting on how the denominational church "system" has been entrenched in the whole concept of what we see as Christianity today. Interesting and vexing at the same time.
Well Said Hombre --- whole lot of contradiction – now that is an understatement and I think there is more truth in it that we realize!!!!!
| Hombre wrote on Thu, 01 May 2008 09:22 |
To go on from this point, which is where I want to head, is the idea that we ( speaking generally of Christianity ) tend to take certain pet aspects from the OT and turn them into NT law...whether it is this issue of dressing or tithes or serving in the military and having national patriotism or whatever...and at the same time preaching this freedom from 'The Law' and the dispensation of grace.
That is a whole lot of contradiction to me.
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Many sum up the gospel with this small phrase: Thou shalt love the Lord your God w/all
your heart, mind soul & strength and love thy neighbor as thy self ? We should all just “love” one another –
How could that possibly be good news, when in reality that would be bad news!! These verses are summing up the law not the gospel. No one can fulfill the works of the law except Jesus! Eternal salvation happens in a completly different way than by weighing out our deeds. The record of our bad deeds, including our defective good deeds, as well as the just penalties we deserve, must be cancelled rather than balanced out.
What can wash away my sin ? Nothing but the blood of Jesus !
| Hombre wrote on Thu, 01 May 2008 09:22 |
Either we are free, and able to make correct judgments ourselves, living by the principles that Christ laid down, or we are not and need a set of rules to live by.
Which is it?
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What a better way to be deceived and Miss the leading (voice) of the Spirit than to be constantly pounded by the don’ts of the flesh.
| Hombre wrote on Thu, 01 May 2008 09:22 |
Christians shouldn't belittle other Christians who are attempting to bring forth the truth, against the grain of the institutionalized religion. The entire purpose of this forum is to allow us ( former FAers' ) to begin to separate what IS Biblical truth from what was merely personal opinion and/or legalism, and to once again grow and stretch toward the high calling that we have. Whether I or we ( any of us ) have these supernatural manifestations working in our lives is really beside the point of my little rant...what is important to me however, is that we don't DENY the fact that they ARE written. What else is important, as I reiterate, is that we attempt to find out WHY, instead of dismissing certain scriptures because they are difficult.
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The denominational church has had 1 goal and 1 goal only since the end of what we would consider the NT church. That is to suppress the ministry (work) of the Holy Spirit.
| capturedbygrace wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 13:43 |
I realize not everyone is called to do as I do--however, I believe God is wanting us all to be very careful how and where we speak. This is His work. He (not me) is going to build His church--I just get to fit in where and how and when He says. I do believe things are changing. I do believe God is reaching in and giving revelation to a minister here and there. I do believe He is also giving them not only a hatred of religion, but a hatred of pride. I also believe God is raising up people outside the system, humble, bold people who are filled with God's vision, His heart, His Spirit and His words.--I think it is not all going to look like I think it will, and if I'm not careful, I could miss what God is doing right under my nose...
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Amen cbgrace – I agree with what you said here with the exception of 1 thing. God giving his revelation to a minister. – I do not mean anything towards you, this is exactly the mentality that is promoted though out the Denom system. A hold out from OT days and directly maintained in the catholic church. The mentality that God is special and it takes special individuals to hear from HIM. It’s like they miss the Whole purpose and understanding of salvation and the relationship we all have individually with our Lord. Some have a revelation or a supernatural manifestation and resulting in others wanting to idealize them as special. We are quick to draw a conclusion that – God is working though them so we should follow them. We look on these individuals as being spiritual and having something that we feel as though we do not have. THE HOLY SPIRIT – been there done that and NOT returning. The same Spirit has been given to all of us and is working the same. It takes EFFORT or better yet FAITH on ones part (which it seems like many are doing again) to seek the Lord individually. It takes FAITH to believe that GOD is working in or lives and it takes FAITH to be the evidence of our standing with GOD and that he sent his SPIRIT to fulfill HIS will in our lives.
I remember when I was 1st saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit. It first began with tongues. I remember thinking how easy that was – only believe!! And along with that no one needed to pound on me to define sin in my life. The Holy Spirit was working to fulfill HIS ministry. Then the excitement and privilege to sit under the teaching of the WORD for scripture states – my people perish for lack of knowledge – and that eternal life is MUCH more than being “Born Again” – John 17:3.
Then the seeking for the leading of the Holy Spirit, which had actually been placed second because of the focus on the WORD, being mixed with rational thinking in comparison to this world.
In the flesh we have learned to well to pattern ourselves off of others experiences. We look at individuals and judge the success in their lives and desire the same. These individuals though very sincere desire for others to experience what they have. Consequently they teach “principals” that the Holy Spirit has graciously revealed to them that results in bondage/legalisms to others.
It was defined that this verse means No – TV, this verse defines ones dress, because of this verse it defines the shoes to wear. – ALL ONE BIG SMOKE SCREEN that diminished the voice of the HOLY SPIRIT in ones life and quenches the JOY of the LORD – Our strength.
What gives an individual (or church) the right to impose Do’s and Don’ts on individuals???? The argument comes up – How are they to Know? The real question is WHERE IS YOUR FAITH? Is not your life to be a living testimony? Did Jesus have to live among us to fulfill all things? No – He lived among us to set an example of how we are to live. He did not come to condemn the world. He sent the Holy Spirit for that!!! How quick we are to take the place of the Holy Spirit in pointing out faults and sin. Yes God is a Holy God and he requires His people to be HOLY. Yet he knows us better than we can imagine and sent His own Spirit to be our comforter.
It is His church and it is His work that He is going to fulfill!! How quick we are to lean to our own understanding and in all sincerity we attempt to help. Are we not stepping in and restricting the ministry of the Holy Spirit? It will all be done in His timing and by His Grace on individuals lives.
We talk of bringing all things into a balance. Is it really a balance we are experiencing or is it no more than hearing that still small of the Spirit? We have been beat up with the legalisms and all the negativisms of – NO Doctors – Specific dress – Education – Debt – Media – I could go on, that they have become the focus. Are these things sin? They can be, yet it is NOT an absolute! I think we give Satan way TOO much credit. He did not create these things – HE CAN’T – God did – Satan has perverted them as he has all of creation. We are in the world yet commanded not to be OF the world.
The whole Denom system is so rooted in the worldly mind-set that to shed light on it and fully understand it’s consequences is mind boggling. One of the primary results it has accomplished is the quenching of the Holy Spirit in individuals lives. Members have the mind-set that we have a worldly leader to lead and teach (doesn’t matter if you classify as 5-fold or not) and it devolves into a spectators affair.
I pose a question here – If an individual feels led to do something that someone else feels they have a deeper knowledge of as sin, should it be voiced? By voicing it and it being reasoning of the scriptures (head knowledge) and not the leading of the Holy Spirit, is this no less than blasphemy of the Spirit???? I’m not referring to someone sinning against what is written! But the interpretation of what some feels a scripture is referring to!
I find it amazing how the structure of the denominational system has been maintained throughout the history of the NT church with the exception of the 1st century. It is no more than OT structure with a new turn for the modern age! They pray “Our Father in Heaven” a mentality that He is out of reach to the individual. The system permeates the Charismatic movement and even “WORD and FAITH” messages. Some see the error and behold another deception – the Prophetic movement.
Where is Your Faith??? In the works that one does or in the True and Living God???
| Hombre wrote on Thu, 01 May 2008 09:22 |
Either we are free, and able to make correct judgments ourselves, living by the principles that Christ laid down, or we are not and need a set of rules to live by.
Which is it?
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JRS
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1896 is a reply to message #1892] |
Sun, 18 May 2008 19:31 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Sue, it's not worth it to argue at this point. We've been here before, done that, sounds like a broken record. Every time I try to show some way that HEF went wrong, you send out a post attacking various ministries and me and making unjustified sweeping statements about people and churches. It is difficult to have an intelligent dialogue on the matter when that happens. I know that you are doing what you believe is best, but it is difficult to dialogue when you come at things the way you do. If you look for error and evil you will certainly find it. Likewise with truth and goodness.
However, let me make it clear under no uncertain terms that I have no truck with the emerging church movement or mentality. I have never negated any commands of scripture by stating that it is "just for that culture." Nothing new about that error. My statements about HEF's teaching on dress and the like were meant to convey that it was unreasonable for him to expect the 80's generation to have the same approach to formal attire that the 50's generation had. The 80's generation was more casual, but in our mind (I am part of the 80's generation) casual does not mean disrespectful. I think the formality of previous generations produced a starchiness that inhibited people from flowing in the Holy Spirit. I'm glad that I can be more informal when worshipping with the saints than when going to the White House. It is hard to dance in the spirit for very long in a suit and tie, especially on a humid day. I'm glad that my daughters are not discouraged by legalism about formal dress at church so that they can focus on the more important matters. Modesty is the principle taught in scripture, not formality, and they are aware of that.
I did not mean for my remarks to be demeaning. I am genuinely concerned about your mental health, as well as that of all the others who have the same mindset. However, I will try to not go there again as I can see that it is not helpful in this context.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1897 is a reply to message #1894] |
Sun, 18 May 2008 19:59 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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JRS, Hombre and c-grace, for 2,000 years believers have been trying to thrash out this issue. Many sincere followers of Jesus have labored to walk in grace while expressing their faith through works, as James teaches. We acknowledge that it is only by God's unmerited favor that we can even be saved, that He took the initiative to shed His own blood for us and He took the initiative to regenerate us. It is all by grace, as the scripture says. The question is, "How do we then live? Once we have been transformed by the Holy Spirit, how do we live out our lives? Jim Brenneman said it well-- "Works do not produce salvation, salvation produces works." I don't know if that is original with him, but it is Biblical. Hombre, when I quote the scriptures that tell us to love the Lord with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves, I am talking about how we live our lives. I am not talking about how we obtain salvation. We don't obtain it. Jesus did. But the way we live according to His word is summed up under those two commandments. We cannot even come close to doing so without being born again first. Once we are, we have the power to do so, and as time goes on we grow in both faith and love.
On a more negative note, I am concerned that so many posters here are still using the term "denominational" to refer to lukewarm churches. That's an outdated term and is not very helpful. It blurs the issue. There are plenty of churches that are part of denominations that have been filled with the Holy Spirit and are wonderful examples of what a church can be. On the other hand, I can think of a number of "faith" churches that were a really bad example. Bickering, fearful, legalistic, elitist, no concern for the lost, etc... It is not about being a part of a denomination, although sometimes a denom can get in the way for some churches. Some churches are lukewarm, some are not. Some churches need to remove themselves from apostate denominations.
Every time in history a group of Christians has tried to extract themselves from "the system" they created a system of their own. When you talk about denominations, in a sense you are including the Faith Assembly denomination. That was one of the points of my original post in this thread.
You might want to find a more accurate term than "denominational". "Lukewarm" or "institutional" might be better. The important thing is that you don't convey this attitude of "all other churches are bad except my kind". That only feeds the problem, not helps it.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1904 is a reply to message #1598] |
Tue, 20 May 2008 15:55 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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Amen Hombre – Well said!
| Hombre wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 09:47 |
...the problem as I see it Jiz, is this:
There IS NO church right now 'of my kind'.
The closest thing to 'it' was FA, and though we disagree on a few issues, we both agree that FA bound themselves up with suffocating legalism, which eventually killed the goose.
What I would like, and I'm sure we all would, is a church that teaches sound Biblical doctrine/theology yet allows the Spirit to move. The problems are also, as I see it, the same problems that HEF faced:
1. The need to educate people sufficiently in theology so that they don't come in prophesying through the wrong spirit, etc., and embracing one error after another.
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Just speculating in what the early Church was like.
Praise, worship and the gifts – and along with it – teaching & reading from the OT only, proving how it was all previously written and fulfilled in Jesus. Giving testimony of the LIFE of Jesus and how we are to pattern our lives after HIM and NOT man’s ideas. I would have a hard time believing he taught anything that could be implied as a rule or regulation, for it would result in works.
He taught that everything should be done in order in the church at Corinth, yet he in NO way imposed an order. Interesting – He exposed the confusion and allowed the Holy Spirit to bring the order!!!!
JRS
Maybe it is a utopia that is patterned – Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.
Man Can’t – God Can.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1909 is a reply to message #1898] |
Wed, 21 May 2008 02:47 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Sageshroomer said, "There are ways to phrase things without putting someone down. I did not question your mental state, but rather wondered about your discernment about some people in the religious world. My mental state is fine, I just wish there were more discerning ministers out there. I've been around long enough to recognize misguided "discernment." I used to do that myself. Every time I would walk in a church or read an article I would immediately pick apart what I thought was error and analyze it and be suspicious of any manifestation of the Spirit that seemed unusual. True discernment about error is absolutely essential for a church. However, false discernment that makes sweeping statements and writes off a teacher for one error is harmful to the body of Christ. In doing so, you miss a lot of truth that some of these men and movement have to offer.
I am concerned for all the people following all the compromise and deception out there. I have friends who have been deeply hurt by their past churches who are going the easy way, and the way of the false apostolic and prophetic. Following Jesus is never easy, especially because He often surprises us in the places that we need to go if we are obey His leading. He does not like it when we try to put Him in a box. Brother Freeman spoke about this 30 years ago and Dave Wilkerson is warning his church about such things now.
He is teaching some wonderful messages on faith, and how God hates unbelief. In these wicked days of unbelief, God is looking for faith. I am just listening to a message by him called "Moving your Mountain." And the mountain he is speaking about is the mountain of unbelief."
Yes, I have a high esteem for David Wilkerson, too. I still receive his newletter and sermons. He tries to maintain unity with all those who call upon the Lord with a pure heart, regardless of denomination. He certainly does not reject them as "denominational". He was a Pentecostal pastor himself for years (Assemblies of God), and he still maintains a good relationship with that denomination. He does not isolate himself, and he would be the first to tell you that you need to join a church. He speaks strongly about the charismatic itch, and he needs to do so, but I disagree with some of his comments about the "prophetic" movement. I see a lot of holiness coming from some prophetic churches, and they are not as loosy goosy as they are made out to be. Some are false, some are not.
Moulder suggested that someone start a separate thread on recent charismatic movements so that we can discuss them intelligently. Maybe I will take the initiative. I want to see this one to the end, first.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1910 is a reply to message #1894] |
Wed, 21 May 2008 03:12 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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| Hombre wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 09:47 |
| jisamazed wrote on Sun, 18 May 2008 14:59 |
....The important thing is that you don't convey this attitude of "all other churches are bad except my kind". That only feeds the problem, not helps it.
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...the problem as I see it Jiz, is this:
There IS NO church right now 'of my kind'.
The closest thing to 'it' was FA, and though we disagree on a few issues, we both agree that FA bound themselves up with suffocating legalism, which eventually killed the goose.
What I would like, and I'm sure we all would, is a church that teaches sound Biblical doctrine/theology yet allows the Spirit to move. The problems are also, as I see it, the same problems that HEF faced:
1. The need to educate people sufficiently in theology so that they don't come in prophesying through the wrong spirit, etc., and embracing one error after another.
2. How to establish reasonable order without it becoming legalistic.
Of course, we would need a congregation filled with people who aren't narrow minded in the wrong way and able to embrace the idea that God is bigger than their idea of Him, and accept the fact that perhaps they can learn a thing or two if they would start looking at what the Bible says and doesn't say, versus what they have been taught that the Bible says.
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Hombre, I could not agree more with the need for Spirit-filled churches that hold to sound teaching and practice. There is a book by Douglas Banister called, "The Word and Power Church" (Zondervan, 1999). In it he talks about the need for churches to have both of these qualities in order to be strong, well-balanced and effective in advancing the kingdom of God. He was an Evangelical Free pastor (Chuck Swindoll's denomination) who was wonderfully baptized in the Spirit. He and his church strive for that balance. Many such traditional churches have had the same experience. We don't hear a lot about them because they are not very visible. Many of them are not big, don't have popular newsletters and do not draw a lot of attention to themselves. I have met many people from various churches who have that balance to one degree or another. They are growing in their faith and understanding, just as we are, and they are becoming more like Jesus. At the same time, many charismatics are starting to understand the need for good, scholarly teaching.
I hesitate to recommend any specific churches because I know that it is easy to judge them for their denominational label or the movement of which they have been a part. For example, if I were to say, "Try Living Faith Fellowship", it would be easy to dismiss it because you already know some things about it and might not be able to approach it objectively.
I would recommend the writings of Wayne Grudem for a good understanding of how to approach the matter. He seems to have wrestled with the same thing at one time in his life. I think that his Systematic Theology is the best one out there, and I have read quite a few. In it he addresses the questions that you have raised.
You have to seek in order to find. Visit some churches and sit under their word for a while to get an idea of whether or not they have that balance. They might have it to varying degrees or emphasize one side or another, but we are all growing, aren't we? Find out if that balance of Word and Spirit are important to them. If so, you both value the same thing.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1911 is a reply to message #1907] |
Wed, 21 May 2008 03:20 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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| DeWayne wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 20:19 |
| jisamazed wrote on Sun, 18 May 2008 14:31 |
I did not mean for my remarks to be demeaning. I am genuinely concerned about your mental health, as well as that of all the others who have the same mindset. However, I will try to not go there again as I can see that it is not helpful in this context.
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In other words, anyone who believes God's promises is mentally ill. You did not mean for your remarks to be demeaning? It's really difficult to take you seriously. Why did you ever go to FA? You should have stayed in the system. You would have been better off.
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My statement had nothing to do with whether or not someone believes God's promises. I don't know where you got that from.
I have a few clients whose thinking is in a loop. They are not able to reason themselves out of their delusions, no matter what evidence to the contrary. They have an inability to see both sides of an issue or weigh all of the evidence. When I meet with them, it reminds me of the way that many of us thought back in the early and mid eighties. There was so much fear of deception that it was almost an obsession. A few posts on this forum express the same thought process. It is unhealthy. It has nothing to do with believing God's promises. May we all believe His promises every day. They are "Yes" and "Amen". They are meant to be a source of joy and basis for faith, not a bondage or a formula.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1912 is a reply to message #1911] |
Wed, 21 May 2008 05:11 |
DeWayne
Messages: 82
Registered: August 2006 |
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| jisamazed wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 22:20 |
| DeWayne wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 20:19 |
| jisamazed wrote on Sun, 18 May 2008 14:31 |
I did not mean for my remarks to be demeaning. I am genuinely concerned about your mental health, as well as that of all the others who have the same mindset. However, I will try to not go there again as I can see that it is not helpful in this context.
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In other words, anyone who believes God's promises is mentally ill. You did not mean for your remarks to be demeaning? It's really difficult to take you seriously. Why did you ever go to FA? You should have stayed in the system. You would have been better off.
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My statement had nothing to do with whether or not someone believes God's promises. I don't know where you got that from.
I have a few clients whose thinking is in a loop. They are not able to reason themselves out of their delusions, no matter what evidence to the contrary. They have an inability to see both sides of an issue or weigh all of the evidence. When I meet with them, it reminds me of the way that many of us thought back in the early and mid eighties. There was so much fear of deception that it was almost an obsession. A few posts on this forum express the same thought process. It is unhealthy. It has nothing to do with believing God's promises. May we all believe His promises every day. They are "Yes" and "Amen". They are meant to be a source of joy and basis for faith, not a bondage or a formula.
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So when God said "I am the Lord that healeth thee", you say no thanks God, I'd rather trust in man's great wisdom?
DeWayne
[Updated on: Wed, 21 May 2008 05:12]
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1932 is a reply to message #1910] |
Sun, 25 May 2008 03:50 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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That might be good methodology for car shopping, and certainly what you're suggesting has an element of truth in it, however, been there, done that and I can assure you that HEF was right about something else:
'People don't leave religion, they leave 'The Faith'. There are plenty of people in traditional churches as well as charismatic fellowships who are in the faith, because they are in Christ. HEF's statement was the kind that put people in fear about leaving FA and made them insecure about their salvation. He seemed to imply that "the faith" was the same as "his teaching about faith".
...and IMO, attempting to bring the message of faith into a dead system, is much akin to attempting to persuade Pharaoh to chisel off his pyramid hieroglyphs in favor of the 10 commandments. But Hombre, you seem to assume that any church that is in a denomination is dead. Quite the opposite. I've seen many denominational churches that are more alive than many "faith" groups I know about. It's not about what label a church has, it is about how much they are in Christ and how much the presence of the Holy Spirit is there. And you won't know until you visit and fellowship with them.
..it ain't a gonna happen.
...that is unless of course one is somehow spirited into the midst and given power to do that.....I speak of Joseph.......errrrr........ 'Sir William'. I'm all for it. Followers of Jesus need to teach each other and learn from each other. Hopefully it can be done without the "listen to me because I'm superior to you" mentality. Ministry means to serve, and ministry of the Word means that we serve people by teaching the Word.
...so then I'll revise that last statement, it can happen.
...ALL things are possible.
Consider this:
...'ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.' ~ Jude 3
We of all people ought to understand that verse. 'The Faith' has been lost for several thousand years now, except in isolated blips here and there through time. I strongly disagree. When you look at the martyrs throughout church history, including those who are being persecuted as you read this post, how can you say that? Many believers around the world understand that to die is gain, because they know they could be killed any time simply because they confess Jesus as Lord. The millions who have been killed, maimed, fired, exiled or humiliated for the Lord might not follow HEF's 5 steps of faith for healing, but they understand faith more than any of us in our comfortable Christianity in America. Christianity ought to be attempting to recover that lost information, not swaddling itself through the comfort that institutions can bring (most genuine Christians I know are doing so, all of them at different levels of knowledge and practice). IMO, HEF and FA attempted to do just that, and in my life has come closer than anything else I've experienced to touching the divine. Dude, I was drawn to the same passion for the truth when I was a teenager. That is why I sat under that teaching for 12 years. It was much to my dismay when I discovered that HEF's teaching was not as faithful to scripture as I first thought it was, especially later in his life.
A friend of mine compares being ' institutionalized ' to Psalm 137:
'......By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning......'
This verse could apply to any religious captivity. FA brought a few people under captivity as well, and it is nice to be back to the promised land. So do I.... insert weeping emoticon HERE:_______
There is also one other problem which I have already noted of late, and that is the need for one to be sufficiently grounded in the Word, in order to recognize error and avoid being caught up in it like the rest who aren't rooted sufficiently. It is one thing to be genuinely rooted in the Word, and it is another to think that you are.
I don't think that I really need to go into it, but I'll leave it with one example anyway. Good idea. Examples are helpful.
Consider those who sat at FA for years, supposedly soaking up the water and digesting the meat....and now, these same sit under 'balanced' ministries and have become confused enough to attempt to convince us, even here, that healing through Medical Science is synonymous with Divine Healing. If you are implying that I said that, then you are twisting my words. Scripture does not speak directly to the medical science question, whether for or against it. Using the Asa passage to insist that God never uses medical science is twisting scripture. My emphasis from the beginning has been, "What does scripture really say? Does it really say what HEF implied it said, or was he wrong sometimes?" He sometimes quoted "Confessions of a Medical Heretic" more than scripture in some of his messages. Was he really preaching the Word in those later years?
We may not have all the answers, but we don't go about deceiving people by altering the Word of God through human reasonings. Amen. However, I think that FA and HEF did that very thing some times. It was just a different human reasoning than what you might hear in some other churches.
...and that is precisely what happens, little by little, as one sits under a ministry that has commitments that extend beyond the preaching of the Word. You mean like a commitment to keep people from accessing doctors and lawyers or to get insurance as if those were the Lord's top priority?
...before one knows it, they are participating in everything from passing buckets to helping organize revivals. Those must be horrible sins. I can't imagine how anyone who does such things could really be saved. All this time, I thought that the Lord had the power to move among people in spite of their shortcomings.
...sorry, but that ain't the way God works, and one has to be strong enough to resist getting caught up in it all....not to mention creating new friendships and having the old peer pressure bearing down to participate....that is just a little much for my taste, and besides that raises the question:
...WHY would one be doing something that vexes oneself? All is vanity, a vexation of spirit ("chasing after the wind" is an alternative translation). If you love your brothers who are bound by a religious spirit, it won't be so vexing to share some life with them.
Hombre, freely you have received, freely give. If you have been given life-giving truth that draws you to Jesus and empowers you to live by the Holy Spirit, you need to share it with others instead of criticizing them. Learn from them at the same time. You need to remind yourself that the ground is still level at the foot of the cross, no matter how much more knowledge you have (or think you have).
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1933 is a reply to message #1912] |
Sun, 25 May 2008 04:11 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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| DeWayne wrote on Wed, 21 May 2008 00:11 |
| jisamazed wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 22:20 |
| DeWayne wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 20:19 |
| jisamazed wrote on Sun, 18 May 2008 14:31 |
I did not mean for my remarks to be demeaning. I am genuinely concerned about your mental health, as well as that of all the others who have the same mindset. However, I will try to not go there again as I can see that it is not helpful in this context.
|
In other words, anyone who believes God's promises is mentally ill. You did not mean for your remarks to be demeaning? It's really difficult to take you seriously. Why did you ever go to FA? You should have stayed in the system. You would have been better off.
|
My statement had nothing to do with whether or not someone believes God's promises. I don't know where you got that from.
I have a few clients whose thinking is in a loop. They are not able to reason themselves out of their delusions, no matter what evidence to the contrary. They have an inability to see both sides of an issue or weigh all of the evidence. When I meet with them, it reminds me of the way that many of us thought back in the early and mid eighties. There was so much fear of deception that it was almost an obsession. A few posts on this forum express the same thought process. It is unhealthy. It has nothing to do with believing God's promises. May we all believe His promises every day. They are "Yes" and "Amen". They are meant to be a source of joy and basis for faith, not a bondage or a formula.
|
So when God said "I am the Lord that healeth thee", you say no thanks God, I'd rather trust in man's great wisdom?
DeWayne
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Actually, I ask the Lord to fulfill that particular promise some times when I pray for healing for myself or others. Sometimes it is a different promise. If I ask the Lord to heal me or my children, I ask Him what He wants me to do about it. I commit myself to doing whatever He wants. If I believe that He wants me to get the help of a doctor, I do it. If not, I don't. If I do get care from a doctor, I pray for him or her and ask the Lord to make the treatment effective. I trust that He gives us wisdom and leads us in these matters. He is the healer, and I will follow His leading. Whether or not I'm healed, though important, is secondary to being faithful to Him, even if I am not healed. It's not about whether or not I use medical science, it is about whether or not I will look to Him as my healer.
Sometimes I do what is contrary to what the doctor says, not because I think medical science is bad, but because I disagree with that particular doctor or practice. For example, I delayed getting my children immunized until they were 4-5 years old because I don't believe that the body of an infant or toddler can handle so many of those shots, some of which still contain formaldehyde or mercury. They were required by the school in order for them to enroll, so I had it done. I was not fearful about it, and I know that for some diseases immunizations are safe and effective. For others they might not be. Freedom in Christ allows us to make those kinds of choices without feeling condemned. Even if I was wrong about the shot matter (although I've done my homework), it is not the end of the world, and it should not be made into a major issue. Big deal. There are much more important matters to focus on. The Lord will honor our faith either way.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: The Faith Assembly Denomination [message #1934 is a reply to message #1933] |
Mon, 26 May 2008 06:47 |
DeWayne
Messages: 82
Registered: August 2006 |
Member |
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| jisamazed wrote on Sat, 24 May 2008 23:11 |
| DeWayne wrote on Wed, 21 May 2008 00:11 |
| jisamazed wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 22:20 |
| DeWayne wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 20:19 |
| jisamazed wrote on Sun, 18 May 2008 14:31 |
I did not mean for my remarks to be demeaning. I am genuinely concerned about your mental health, as well as that of all the others who have the same mindset. However, I will try to not go there again as I can see that it is not helpful in this context.
|
In other words, anyone who believes God's promises is mentally ill. You did not mean for your remarks to be demeaning? It's really difficult to take you seriously. Why did you ever go to FA? You should have stayed in the system. You would have been better off.
|
My statement had nothing to do with whether or not someone believes God's promises. I don't know where you got that from.
I have a few clients whose thinking is in a loop. They are not able to reason themselves out of their delusions, no matter what evidence to the contrary. They have an inability to see both sides of an issue or weigh all of the evidence. When I meet with them, it reminds me of the way that many of us thought back in the early and mid eighties. There was so much fear of deception that it was almost an obsession. A few posts on this forum express the same thought process. It is unhealthy. It has nothing to do with believing God's promises. May we all believe His promises every day. They are "Yes" and "Amen". They are meant to be a source of joy and basis for faith, not a bondage or a formula.
|
So when God said "I am the Lord that healeth thee", you say no thanks God, I'd rather trust in man's great wisdom?
DeWayne
|
Actually, I ask the Lord to fulfill that particular promise some times when I pray for healing for myself or others. Sometimes it is a different promise. If I ask the Lord to heal me or my children, I ask Him what He wants me to do about it. I commit myself to doing whatever He wants. If I believe that He wants me to get the help of a doctor, I do it. If not, I don't. If I do get care from a doctor, I pray for him or her and ask the Lord to make the treatment effective. I trust that He gives us wisdom and leads us in these matters. He is the healer, and I will follow His leading. Whether or not I'm healed, though important, is secondary to being faithful to Him, even if I am not healed. It's not about whether or not I use medical science, it is about whether or not I will look to Him as my healer.
Sometimes I do what is contrary to what the doctor says, not because I think medical science is bad, but because I disagree with that particular doctor or practice. For example, I delayed getting my children immunized until they were 4-5 years old because I don't believe that the body of an infant or toddler can handle so many of those shots, some of which still contain formaldehyde or mercury. They were required by the school in order for them to enroll, so I had it done. I was not fearful about it, and I know that for some diseases immunizations are safe and effective. For others they might not be. Freedom in Christ allows us to make those kinds of choices without feeling condemned. Even if I was wrong about the shot matter (although I've done my homework), it is not the end of the world, and it should not be made into a major issue. Big deal. There are much more important matters to focus on. The Lord will honor our faith either way.
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If you want to go to doctors you should, for sure. But you are deceived.
DeWayne
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