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| From the Tomax site [message #128] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 15:49  |
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Interesting.
This is a recent entry from someone named ‘Ned’ over at the tomax web site, www.tomax7.com/thoughts/faith_assembly.htm
I’m sure a few of you already know of this web site. It’s run by a very sincere brother in the Lord that uses part of his website to try to contact ex-Faith Assembly folks.
Here’s is a testimony from one of his guests on his website.
Feb 2006 - Greetings, I have a somewhat different perspective and would like to ask for feedback to help me settle some nagging questions. I was in the walk for 15 years and taught on Sundays for 7 years in my satellite church in Illinois. I have been out for 15 years now and find myself intrigued and identifying with what I read here. I also have run the gamut of emotions ranging from self pity to anger about what happened.
I believe I see a simple answer that describes what happened at FA and at the satellite churches. Though not completely. Satisfying this answer allows me to cope well with our/my failures. This is simple in concept but extremely crucifying to self for us even to consider. My idea respects that most of the teachings were very good, that Christianity is defined by only the Scriptures, and that most of our hearts were good and acceptable before God... after all how much more sincere can you be if you are willing to go to and through death's door? Premise to consider -> << That we had little or no anointing but we did not notice. >>
In other words - it did not work from God's side not from our side. Did we have an anointing or not? What if what "anointing" we did see in our churches actually came from sincere people trying their best ... and not from God? Signs and wonders should happen once in a while - maybe fairly often in an anointed church. All we ever saw were things that might have come from sincere, well meaning men or women. Tongues could possibly come from the human mind as could the prophecies. Pastoral compassion and care could originate in the caring heart of nice men. Teaching could come from the sincere intellect of honest men who simply take the Scriptures at face value.
Can we consider that maybe Bro. Freeman was not "anointed"? With respect to Brother Freeman...note: I speak next of major doctrines, not tacky small things termed "legalistic." Most of his teachings were commonly available in reference books and in seminaries such as the Baptist seminary that trained Dr. Freeman. What he brought out that was not available elsewhere was clearly stated (which is why we all believed it) in the Scriptures available to the human intellect of a smart, learned, sincere, honest man.
Freeman was smart, sincere, honest with the Scriptures, and above all courageous enough to just say what the Scriptures actually say. We all elevated him as anointed and the center of God's end time move.....but as we begin to see him now as only a normal minister ... can we consider that maybe it was not "the anointing" but rather his personal honestly and courage that set him apart? Can we consider the possibility that he and we were not anointed?
We were thousands of believers walking the walk for 10 to 20 years and there were never any signs and wonders. Signs and wonders are part of the anointed church. Anyone think the churches at Corinth, in Galatia, or at Ephesus went years and years without seeing any signs and wonders? Not as a frivolous sideshow but there should be the ICor12 gifts of miracles and also the "signs of an Apostle”.... and by the way where is an Apostle after 2 or 3 decades? We believed the healing and faith promises (both very valid in my opinion) to and sometimes through death's door but we let the signs, wonders, and Apostle Verses go unfulfilled and we did not notice.
It is a very disturbing pattern that everything that might possibly come from the intellectual efforts of sincere men we did see happen ...BUT everything that would absolutely require a supernatural action by God was missing.
Long after Brother Freeman's death I spoke to a very sincere brother who had witnessed with his own eyes all of Brother Freeman's ministry at Faith Assembly nearly from the very beginning. At the time we were both still totally committed to the message. My question to him was...."Have you ever seen a clearly supernatural event?" His answer was "No." I was aware that in my satellite church we never saw the clearly supernatural but I always assumed that things occurred at Faith Assembly. I submit that this premise of "little or no anointing" perfectly explains what happened. Maybe it is the only idea that fits our experience.
-Ned
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #130 is a reply to message #128] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 17:23  |
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Hombre,
I hope you don't think what I posted are my sentiments. I was just posting another opinion for discussion and I thought it was interesting. You understand?
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #131 is a reply to message #130] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 17:40 |
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It's sort of ironic but I heard from an old FA brother today. I found out he was working as a county supervisor over in Ohio from my Dad telling me this last Sunday. I sent him an email. He called me back and it was like old times.
We talked on the phone for over an hour. I mostly let him relate to me his experience after the breakup of FA. He has a lot of scars. He lost a newborn back in the early 80’s and he was kind of ostracized because of whisperings that his baby died due to unconfessed sin in his life. That devastated him and his wife.
I want you all to know for the record that this man was my best friend. We knew more about each other than our wives did. We sort of went through similar experiences together and our wives were best friends too. In my humble opinion if this man had unconfessed sin it would have been mine not his. At either rate to this day he is having trouble finding an assembly to join in and fellowship with. He told me that he is starting to go to this one place but it’s sort of like sticking your big toe into the bathtub…you know to make sure it isn’t too hot. Anyway he’s trying , after 20+ years.
I say this to impress upon all of you, when you read the post above from the man named Ned, you might want to give him some slack. I sure will.
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #133 is a reply to message #131] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 18:26 |
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Hombre,
Well to tell you a little something about me. I am closing in on 50, in just a few months. I have 6 kids. All of them grown up expect for one. She is 12 going on 17, and sometimes a pain in my rear. The word ‘sometimes’ is a bit understated.
I have 6 grandkids and recently found out that I have 2 more grandchildren on the way. I’m working on a baseball team.
I have been fortunate. All of my Children have had no serious medical problems. Like you I helped deliver two of them at home. The midwife let me cut the umbilical cord on my third child. Man, what an experience.
With that being said, I can't imagine the struggles you have been through. I for one haven't had the similar experiences that you had. Thank you for sharing what you did. I appreciate your trials and struggles more since you have shared a little of your life with me. Rest assured I’ll never be your adversary.
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #135 is a reply to message #133] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 22:31 |
 Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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Hombre / Rueben,
I just finished reading Ned's post on Tomax before checking in with ya'll. Ironically, that post was the subject of discussion over here.
I will have to be honest with you that his thoughts have crossed my mind on occasion. It's one of those thoughts that I hate to even entertain, but it makes a tiny bit of sense to me. I do not totally agree with him that there was no annointing, but could it be that the annointing left at some point? People tend to talk about the "glory years" at the Glory Barn. Did FA have something then that they lost in the early and mid-80s?
Have any of you personally witnessed a supernatural event related to FA? I have heard of all the stories about limbs growing, people hacking up a cancer ball, blind people regaining their sight and deaf people hearing. When I hear these things it is always second, third or fourth hand. I do not know anyone who has personally witnessed a supernatural sign.
Please don't misunderstand me. I do believe they can happen. The closest thing to supernatural that I have witnessed was a man at FA who started freaking out during one of Dr. Freeman's sermons. I was probably 10 years old, and he was a tall, dark-haired man that was sitting in the fourth or fifth-row center aisle seat. I can see it as clear as if it happened yesterday. He started screaming and convulsing right in the middle of the sermon. I'm not sure, but I think the sermon was on recognizing Satan. People started praying over the guy, and he calmed down after about 5 or 10 minutes.
Just some thoughts.
Duncan
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #136 is a reply to message #135] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 23:07 |
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Duncan said’, “Have any of you personally witnessed a supernatural event related to FA? I have heard of all the stories about limbs growing, people hacking up a cancer ball, blind people regaining their sight and deaf people hearing. When I hear these things it is always second, third or fourth hand. I do not know anyone who has personally witnessed a supernatural sign.”
Ugh, ‘hacking up a cancer ball’. Glad I wasn’t around to see that if it happened. Its bad enough I have two cats that hack up fur balls. They leave them in the most conspicuous spots. Usually in the hallway where my bear feet find them in the morning on the way to the kitchen to make coffee. (My wife is a Cat fan) Lucky for my Wife that I love her or the cats would be coyote food.
As for 'supernatural manifestations’, no. That is if I understand what you mean by ‘supernatural manifestations’…well I have to say I never saw any either. Now I don’t want anyone to take that to mean that I don’t believe that none occurred…ok? I heard various testimony's of personal healing like 'I was sick or I had a toothache' and such, but I never saw anything big in the sense of well you know BIG.
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #137 is a reply to message #128] |
Wed, 01 March 2006 00:42 |
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william
Messages: 1466
Registered: January 2006 |
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Ned wrote:| Quote: |
I believe I see a simple answer that describes what happened at FA and at the satellite churches.
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I think everyone wants a simple answer (myself included), but is this a realistic expectation given the diversity of people from all walks of life, many giving up everything to move to FA?
It's probably in our nature to want everything (the explanation) in a neat little box, but I don't know how we can expect to have it that way unless we do as some and say FA was completely bad, or the other camp who says it was completely good. That is simple. I suspect that most of us find ourselves somewhere between the extremes --which makes it all the more difficult to have a "one size fits all" answer. So I will give the guy points for his attempt, but I think he is pretty far from the truth.
He says:| Quote: |
My idea respects that most of the teachings were very good, that Christianity is defined by only the Scriptures,
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If this is true (which it is in my view) and we chose to believe these "very good" teachings, then why was the "anointing" missing (quoting him here -- 'cause I don't think the anointing was missing!) If it is true:| Quote: |
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of [them] whose heart [is] perfect toward him.
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Then why would not the Lord's anointing be present?
I submit that it was present.
Ok, he continues:| Quote: |
All we ever saw were things that might have come from sincere, well meaning men or women. Tongues could possibly come from the human mind as could the prophecies. Pastoral compassion and care could originate in the caring heart of nice men. Teaching could come from the sincere intellect of honest men who simply take the Scriptures at face value.
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Tongues, prophecies, compassion, care, teaching, all this coming from taking the Scriptures at face value?? (We're supposed to take Scriptures at face value!) With his reasoning ANY sign or wonder can be explained away. Sure, all of the above can be produced (whether or not the intellect was sincere or honest).
Try to explain the salvation experience (the most awesome supernatural experience a man can have) using the above criteria... it is easy. Picture a sincere natural man reading along in a Bible --he decides that Jn3:16 is true so he decides to follow the Lord. No anointing, no lighting strikes, no supernatural lights, no nothing. (Poor fool, he probably thinks he's saved and going to heaven simply because he honestly thought that "whosoever" meant him.)
To continue to use this logic, we could say that if the poor fool had had an experience like Paul and was thrown down to the ground with all of the supernatural lights and stuff, well then he could say he was saved, but naw, all he did was sincerely and honestly believe the teachings of the book.
Come to think of it... I've never seen any one saved (the most supernatural event in anyone's life) like Paul. Maybe no one is saved. Of course this reasoning can become ridiculous so I'll stop before I talk myself out of my own salvation. <grin>
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Teaching could come from the sincere intellect of honest men who simply take the Scriptures at face value.
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Scriptures that, by the way, promise the very things that these "sincere" men were teaching, hello?
A mind-set that seeks to attribute divine things to the natural workings of sincere human activity will ALWAYS be able to explain away the workings of God.
In my own experience (if I were of this mind-set), I could explain away 176 years of divine healing and health that the Lord has graciously allowed our family to experience. (A direct result of the teaching of sincere and honest men who were teaching the anointed Word of God). That is 30 years for me, 28 for my wife, 19 for my oldest son (he's 25 now and on his own but he was under my roof for 19 years), 24 years for my oldest daughter, 20 years for another daughter (married now, but 20 years under our roof), 21 years for another daughter, 16 years for another son, 14 years another daughter, and finally 4 years for my youngest daughter. (If you're counting, that's seven children, all born at home --four without a midwife for various reasons, not always the plan!<grin>)
In all of the 176 years we've had only 1 experience back in the nineties where we availed ourselves of the "awesome" abilities of the "arm of the flesh". (Keeps me from boasting <grin>)
One can have the mind-set that 176 cumulative years of seeing God alone heal and keep our bodies could be a natural occurrence but I'm going to stick my head back in the sand and say thank you Jesus for the anointed Word and the anointed sincere honest men who taught that anointed word that still grips our hearts. (And I don't believe for a moment that our family is unique in our experiences.)
The point I'm trying to make is that it is easy to forget all of the really awesome testimonies, miracles, signs and wonders, that happened. Especially if we try to erect a standard (like Paul's salvation experience or the lightening striking the alter in the presence of Baal's prophets) and measure our experiences by that standard. We should never marginalize and rationalize those areas where God did move on our behalf just because there were areas where He didn't (or at least not in the way we expected).
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It is a very disturbing pattern that everything that might possibly come from the intellectual efforts of sincere men we did see happen ...BUT everything that would absolutely require a supernatural action by God was missing.
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Well, unless they were lying I heard testimonies every week about things that God was doing... but yes, just like my testimony, if one's perspective needs to explain these things as natural, they will.
One of my friends, a close brother in the Lord, had a child raised from the dead. Did I see it? No. But I believe it. A person could actually witness something like that and still not believe or explain it away as some natural occurrence... doubt is contagious.
I don't mean to imply in this note that I haven't had struggles and outright failures in my experience. I can't explain a lot, but I do know that my experiences or lack of experiences doesn't make one wit of a difference to what I know to be true--that is that God is faithful to His Word.
I just want to be one of those that the Lord sees:| Quote: |
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of [them] whose heart [is] perfect toward him.
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And we all know what is meant by "perfect" --obviously, we're all still works in progress.
Concerning the supernatural signs and wonders-- I want to mention again the passage Steve Hill brought up--Ps 18. This psalm was written at the end of the period of David's "wilderness experience" where I am sure he was sorely tested as to whether or not he believed the word from the mouth of Samuel with reference to his kingship. As you read the passage you'll get a glimpse of the things going on behind the scenes in the supernatural realm but these things that were happening at the throne of God were not so easily discerned if one were looking at only the natural realm.
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #140 is a reply to message #139] |
Wed, 01 March 2006 02:30 |
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Most enlightening.
I figured by posting this I would open up a can of worms. I sincerely hope that I offended no one. But since this forum has been disposed to us, I hope that no one will take offence if I occasionally offer up alternate view points for the sake of discussion. What makes me smile is that we can discuss these things without going into invective like what you see over at factnet.
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #144 is a reply to message #128] |
Thu, 02 March 2006 23:52 |
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mark1124
Messages: 48
Registered: February 2006
Location: Salem, Mass. |
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Hi everyone,
I'm a bit confused. I wonder if you, William, or anyone else, could clarify what you mean by "a change in the anointing" and how did it change?
I would appreciate response from anyone. Afterall, I am an outsider looking in, benefitting from the tapes and not being there in person.
God bless and thanks
[Updated on: Thu, 02 March 2006 23:56]
Mark S. Scaliotti
"Faith is trusting God for all things, in all things, and through all things, no matter what."
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| Change in anointing... [message #146 is a reply to message #144] |
Fri, 03 March 2006 00:56 |
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william
Messages: 1466
Registered: January 2006 |
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Hi Mark,
You said:
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I'm a bit confused. I wonder if you, William, or anyone else, could clarify what you mean by "a change in the anointing" and how did it change?
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To be honest I'm not sure, but I'm willing to entertain the idea because I've heard it over and over.
Brother Freeman himself said that there were those who had made that claim after the Galatians series. At the time I didn't pay attention to any critical remarks, but I'm at the place in my life (and secure in what I do believe), that I'm willing to stand back and look at the situation objectively if someone makes a valid claim.
To use a cliche, I couldn't see the forest for the trees while I was at FA, but if someone can show me an example, I'm at least willing to look at it.
I've always attributed the bad things that happened to our own shortcomings and not to the teaching we received. Oh, I'm aware that Brother Freeman had his shortcomings as well, and would no doubt do some things differently--but the Bible teaching? At this point in my life, I believe I could separate the stuff that was Bible teaching and the teachings that merely reflected his opinion and/or background, but not then.
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Change in anointing... [message #161 is a reply to message #146] |
Tue, 07 March 2006 04:20 |
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william
Messages: 1466
Registered: January 2006 |
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| Quote: |
I'll amen that first point, and the second point...uhmmmmm...well.....it's easy to discern that he had a love for ham radio,
and homebaked bread, but when it comes to theology issues, I still haven't found anywhere that he was off.
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Ok, let me try to be more clear.
Here are the doctrinal issues:
>>>Theology (Biblical,OT,NT).
>>>Deeper Life/Crucified Life.
>>>Christian Ethics.
>>>Body Ministry.
>>>Faith (for healing and everything else)
Would you not agree that these areas were the heart of what brother Freeman taught? I have no problem with the teaching in these areas because they all have a biblical base.
I would however admit that in teaching these scriptural truths there were times where he would interject his own opinions (which we of course took to be the Word of God) and this is what I mean when I admitted the *possibility* that there *could* have been a change in the anointing. (I didn't say there was.)
Some examples (loose paraphrases that I'll stand corrected if the archivists produce the tape!)
>>>You leave Faith Assembly and I don't give you any hope<<<
Why, because it was assumed you were leaving because the word was too strong... even though there could have been a host of reasons one would leave Faith Assembly (I can't think of any right now.<g>)
>>>To continue to wear glasses after claiming your healing is not faith<<<
That is why no one wore glasses--not because they were healed (some of course were healed) but because they couldn't stand the stigma of being viewed as having no faith for healing. Many could not drive because they would not put on their glasses to get their drivers license. You didn't last long at Faith Assembly if you wore glasses...
>>>You ought to be beyond calling for the elders of the church if you need healing<<<
Well... maybe, but many weren't and they didn't call for the elders when they should have--because of the stigma of being viewed as weak in the faith. This of course is an example where he was right (our faith in God is all we need) but wrong in not foreseeing the consequences that would result from those who didn't have that kind of faith-- *trying* to make it without the support of those stronger in the faith. And when they failed they were written off as tares in our midst that were being weeded out.
Personally I think that the teaching we received was unparalleled and I wouldn't trade my time at Faith Assembly for anything, but I don't think we got both sides of the coin (as you hinted in one of your notes) the half that stresses the compassion/love/grace, etc., of our Father.
William
[Updated on: Tue, 07 March 2006 04:29]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Change in anointing... [message #185 is a reply to message #161] |
Tue, 21 March 2006 00:26 |
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Well I guess you can count me in as one of those “NAMBY PAMBY MILKTOAST CHRISTIANS”, Hombre.
Deeper Life, Faith, Overcomers, Signs and Wonders, Prophesy. What did all this accomplish us or others? Not really anything of importance. We’re reduced to a fragmented few that get together to talk about the old days nostalgically. I for one am glad it’s over. I still love Brother Freeman very much but unlike some of you I don’t revere him anymore. He was gifted but seriously flawed as well.
F/A was a closed group that didn’t do anything for our Lord or for his witness on the earth. You’re put here to make a difference. You know parable of the talents? We’re just not supposed to stick our heads in the sand and wait for the rapture. Our Lord wants us to perform the great commission. Our Lord wants us to be salt, light, hope and help to others. What did we do at F/A? Not much but makes ourselves feel better because we had all the truth. Yea right.
Hombre, you seem to disparage other groups or Churches that reach out into the community. Why? My church does this very same thing. We go into jails and hospitals to pray and visit the sick. The blind have their own special time of the week where they can get together for encouragement and fellowship with the word. We reach out to the community. What’s so bad about that? Ok, and occaisonally we have a pancake supper to raise money. Reading your other posts I’ve noticed you don’t like order or organization. You use words like ‘uncompromising word’. I’m afraid you just don’t get it. Oh, and I think you’re missing the smorgasbord. It’s right before your eyes.
We were so caught up wanting the next ‘deeper’ life truth we didn’t see the deeper truth in front of us. You know, I saw more general concern for my fellow man from Baptists and Catholics than I saw from us in the end. May God forgive us. We were too interested in the next tidbit of deeper revelation. That’s why Charismatic and Pentecostals get themselves into so much trouble. They just have to have that Gnostic experience that will transcend their daily lives. They ignore the simplicity of the Gospel.
After my walk in the wilderness (16 years) I’ve come to discover that God is not a vending machine. ‘Name it and claim it’ is wrong. The Lords Prayer that Jesus taught was a form of a perfect prayer and is a template of how we should pray. I still petition God for things I need sure. But I understand that his will is always paramount. Charismatics in essence like to teach they can ‘order God around’ as it were, based on what they see in his word. I strenuously disagree with this presumptuous thinking. Hence the reason so many of us has suffered problems with the faith message.
Hombre, you’ve willingly given up the assembling together with other believers because you can’t find another ‘Faith Assembly’. I’m sorry you are at that state. I pray that someday your tribulation will be over. You don’t deserve this kind of life without fellowship with other Christians. You’re not that strong and you are missing something vital. We were not meant to be alone.
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| Re: Change in anointing... [message #190 is a reply to message #185] |
Tue, 21 March 2006 03:51 |
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Maybe we ought to define what faith really is. I think some people in the faith movement don’t see their faith in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, meaning trust in HIM and HIS will. No, it’s in a faith force or a promise they proclaim the Bible says apply’s to them. They talk about putting their trust in my Lord but it really isn’t. I call it Faith in a Box.
Hombre, you wrote; “It is very easy to go to church, lift your hands, get some Goosebumps and be happy.
It is quite another to wrestle with these other concepts.”
Brother that’s a straw-man argument and a cop out. You simply see yourself as superior to other Christians and you won’t open yourself up to obvious immutable truths. You talk about a goal to go somewhere. Where do you want to go? Have you reached the point in your life where you love your neighbor as yourself? Have you reached the point where you love the Lord your God with your whole mind and whole soul? I don't think so, but then again I haven't either. Your posts indicate that you have unanswered questions inside and you seem a bit tortured.
What did Christ teach us about the whole of the commandments? That’s where you and I need to go and that’s what was lacking with us and our friends at Faith Assembly. If I get some part of what you guys call the ‘faith’ message wrong, I really won’t lose a lot of sleep over it anymore. I’d rather show, practice, pray for and preach the love of Christ which has transformed more lives through grace than anyone who preaches you can throw your eye glasses away if you have faith. I’m 50 years old now and I’ve seen both disciplines in practice.
Oh, and don’t give me that I don’t want the ‘meat’ of the word either. Been there done that. The meat of the word is something that transcends what some think it is. I’m into the word every day and still somehow I don’t think Brother Freeman is infallible. Rest assured, I believe in the whole consol of the Word of God. It’s not all love and kisses. Our Lord expects us to live righteously.
I’m not spending the rest of my years wasting away listening to tapes of a deceased man and doing nothing, when I should be showing Christ’s love, compassion and mercy. I know that’s a ‘nambly pambly Christian’ for some of you guys out there, so thanks for the complement.
Had to get that off my chest.
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| Re: Change in anointing... [message #192 is a reply to message #185] |
Tue, 21 March 2006 07:00 |
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william
Messages: 1466
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| Quote: |
Deeper Life, Faith, Overcomers, Signs and Wonders, Prophesy. What did all this accomplish us or others? Not really anything of importance.
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I've tried to enumerate some of what the word of God has "accomplished" in my life and the lives of my family. I could spend days and days on end describing much more but I would no doubt sound like a braggart. Of course I can only "brag" in the Lord, because EVERYTHING I am, I owe to Jesus and His word. Furthermore, EVERYTHING GOOD in my life came as a result of the foundational truths taught to me at Faith Assembly.
Since I've already revealed myself as a foolish braggart, let me continue a bit. (I promise to get back up on the cross and attempt once more to die to this old self nature that is even now climbing down off of the cross!)
The blessings, that were a direct result of my years at Faith Assembly, go beyond the bounds of my family. The Lord used me as an instrument in baptizing others into the blessing of the Holy Spirit. I speak as a foolish one here, but since I've started I'll continue to brag a bit... I have been privileged to teach His word (that I learned from Faith Assembly) to a group of alcoholics and drug addicts. There were results and fruit from this time of ministry (again, only because of what I received at Faith Assembly) and there was at least one notable case of demonic deliverance that occurred during this period.
Now whether or not this will be considered as "anything of importance" in the light of eternity remains to be seen, but it sure seemed important at the time... at least as important as the pancake supper you mentioned! <grin>
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We’re reduced to a fragmented few that get together to talk about the old days nostalgically. I for one am glad it’s over. I still love Brother Freeman very much but unlike some of you I don’t revere him anymore. He was gifted but seriously flawed as well.
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As Hombre said:| Quote: |
Sure...Hobart was a man. Can you forgive him for that?
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And because men are flawed, Hobart was flawed.
I'll admit to getting into the nostalgia a bit, but no more than I enjoy reminiscing about other events from my past.
What I would love to see (and we have seen a little) after we work some of these old issues out, is some good old theological discussions. I have posted a number of articles in the Bible Issues section that would not have been well received back in the nostalgic years, but they do reflect some of my own conclusions (open of course to being revised by a good theological argument) on issues ranging from divorce and remarriage to Len Ravenhill (a controversial revivalist) who, I believe, influenced Steve Hill in his message of brokenness (post Freeman).
OK, I give up--I'm going to bed... I see there is no hope of catching up... Hombre has posted Vol 3 of his Rise and Fall of Institutional Religion complete with an addendum of examples of when and when not to use CAPITAL and BOLD letters in a rant! <grin>
I want to believe!
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #194 is a reply to message #128] |
Tue, 21 March 2006 12:35 |
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I believe Reuben has struck a nerve with Hombre. I for one am in agreement with Reuben on this one. For a number of reasons which I'm sure that Hombre will lambast but I couldn't just sit back and watch any longer.
1. If you've prayed for something 999 and you don't receive until the 1,000th time, the first 999 were in unbelief. I don't think so, maybe it wasn't God's will or timing for you to receive it until the 1,000 time.
2. Name it and claim it, again what you're claiming may not be God's will for your life. If I claim a new Porsche and I have a need for a Mini-Van because I have 4 kids, God isn't going to have a Porsche show up on my doorstep just because I claimed it. I believe the scripture, but not everything you request in a prayer God grants, period. You can name and claim all you want, but that doesn't mean that what you are naming and claiming is what God has planned for you.
3. While I agree with Hombre in that most churches today don't teach 1/10 of what was taught at FA and they are weak, I also believe that FA did more damage as far as bringing the message to the world than it did good. My Grandfather is a lot like Hombre, very grounded in the word, but has turned more potential Christians away with his attitude than he has turned towards Christ.
4. Not everything Dr. Freeman taught was scriptural I will list a few and the problems that it caused.
Not sending your kids to college-you had a whole generation of kids whose parents raised them that they weren't going to college had done no college planning and therefore kids like myself ended up with thousands of dollars in debt to graduate college. Let's face it the days of having a good job without a degree for the most part are gone. My parents realized the errors of the way after a number of kids so my siblings haven't had the struggle that the older ones did.
Not associating with the outside world. How are you supposed to witness if you can't associate with the outside world? My interpretation is that we are not to be like the world, but my Bible doesn't say that we are to remove ourselves.
Not having insurance, it is not a lack of faith to have car insurance or house insurance or even life insurance. If God decides my time is up tomorrow and I leave a homemaker wife with three kids, they are 10 times better off if I have a life insurance policy to leave behind to at least help them through a couple years. I know of countless people who were left without cars because they didn't have insurance and they hit a deer or got in an accident and couldn't afford to replace their car. I don't like insurance anymore than the next person, but it fiscally responsible to have it. Most of the members of FA weren't independently wealthy so if they had a fire or a tornado hit and they lost everything, then what? FA didn't believe in helping thy fellow churchmember all that much so those in need wouldn't have gotten much help from the church.
Glasses-you were scorned if you didn't take your glasses off at FA. I knew of men who lost their jobs because they couldn't get to work because they couldn't drive. Maybe it was a lack of faith, but I believe it was a lack of common sense. Husbands are to provide for their wives and children, if that means they have to wear glasses while they're believing for their eyesight then so be it. I just don't see how it is a lack of faith to wear glasses so that one can provide for their family.
The damage that was done to the younger generation, all of us kids grew up in this and for many of us this was all we knew then after 18 years the church blows up and their we were. We were then thrown to the wolves of the world, I'm not feeling sorry for myself, but so much emphasis was putting on learning the Bible and parents spent so much of their time in the word and at church they didn't spend the time they should have teaching their kids the realities of the outside world and life. Then there are many like myself who don't even go to church anymore because of what we went through as kids. I have six siblings and none of us attend church, period. Of all the kids I ran around with at FA as kids I don't know of any of them that attend church either. I know of countless kids who came out of FA who are a total mess. Drugs, divorce, kids out of wedlock, in jail, etc need I go on. These were children of Faith Assembly.
I could go on and on and I'm sure that Hombre will have a dissertation to write on this, but it doesn't matter what I say or anyone else says for that matter his mind is made up and that is what turns/turned so many people away from FA, it was there way or the highway and as history has shown not . Not everyone had a joyride at FA, there was a great deal of pain and needless problems that were created by both what was taught and the environment there.
If we all maintained the status quo, how quickly we would fall!
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #195 is a reply to message #194] |
Tue, 21 March 2006 16:04 |
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william
Messages: 1466
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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I believe Reuben has struck a nerve with Hombre. I for one am in agreement with Reuben on this one. For a number of reasons which I'm sure that Hombre will lambast but I couldn't just sit back and watch any longer.
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It amazes me how differently we perceive things.
Firstly, from my perspective, I don't see Hombre lambasting anyone personally. He gives a pretty good rant against "the system" and I presume that one might take it personally if they were in "the system" but he simply is calling it like he sees it.
It seems as if the nerve that was struck was in Reuben not the other way around... but again, that is only from my perspective.
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1. If you've prayed for something 999 and you don't receive until the 1,000th time, the first 999 were in unbelief. I don't think so, maybe it wasn't God's will or timing for you to receive it until the 1,000 time.
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If you've prayed for something 999 times and you actually receive something on the thousand time (assuming that you didn't change anything on your end) whatever you got didn't come from God.
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2. Name it and claim it, again what you're claiming may not be God's will for your life. If I claim a new Porsche and I have a need for a Mini-Van because I have 4 kids, God isn't going to have a Porsche show up on my doorstep just because I claimed it. I believe the scripture, but not everything you request in a prayer God grants, period. You can name and claim all you want, but that doesn't mean that what you are naming and claiming is what God has planned for you.
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Especially if you are in the middle (say around 680) of the aforementioned prayers. God gives us what we ask for---if we are meeting the conditions (I've heard that a few times!)
God tells us that He gives us the desires of OUR hearts. He doesn't say that He will give us a stone when we ask for bread. Since He is God He could have easily left out Mk.11:24 and stated something more along the lines of your statement.
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My Grandfather is a lot like Hombre, very grounded in the word, but has turned more potential Christians away with his attitude than he has turned towards Christ.
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I only know your grandfather from your statement above, but if he is "grounded" in the Word and if it is the Word he is expressing, then it is the Word that is turning these "potentials" away. John 6 sounds almost exactly like your grandfathers experience--assuming of course that what little I know of your grandfather is accurately expressed in the above paragraph.
You mentioned some things you believed were unscriptural in the teachings of brother Freeman--college, no association with the world, insurance and glasses. Since when are parents responsible for adult education? I don't know of anyone who didn't associate with the world. We all had jobs, we all bought our food from the grocery store, we all had contact with the world--what we did with that contact might have varied from person to person but we certainly were taught that we were to witness at every opportunity. Were you there?
Insurance? My view is that it is a racket. I'd have that view even if I had never heard of FA.
Glasses? I've commented elsewhere on this but surely this issue isn't your "biggie".
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I could go on and on and I'm sure that Hombre will have a dissertation to write on this, but it doesn't matter what I say or anyone else says for that matter his mind is made up and that is what turns/turned so many people away from FA,
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I fail to understand you on this point. Let's see, Hombre's mind is made up (are our minds made up?). Hombre is grounded in the Word (are we?). Hombre is passionate about his beliefs (are we?). Oh, and I forgot, Hombre didn't attend Faith Assembly (did we?). Yet Hombre (or maybe you mean his mindset?) is what turns/turned so many people away from FA?
I would be interested to know if there was/is anything good that came from your association with FA?
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #199 is a reply to message #128] |
Wed, 22 March 2006 13:16 |
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Thanks for the response Hombre. Where I'm coming from and many of the younger generation is coming from is this.
First of all I'll make this clear, scripturally FA was very sound and the teaching there in regards to the Bible was top notch. So I don't disagree with you there. Even as a child I gained a great deal of knowledge from attending there.
FA was the only encounter with Christianity that many of us had and it wasn't by choice. This is one area in which I am in agreement with Healed on as kids we didn't have a choice. As adults if they chose to follow every jot and tittle that was their choice. As kids we didn't have a choice. Now I'm not saying that I had a bad childhood or my parents were awful, that's not the point. The point is that much of the teachings/opinions/legalism of the church we were raised under and that was all we knew. By the time we grew up the church was dissolved and we were like I said before somewhat left to the wolves of the world. I still believe in God, but where I stand on Christianity is unclear. My fear as is many other kids that grew up in FA that we don't want to go back to that environment. It's not that we can't handle the word or the message but rather all the legalism, the deaths, needless suffering etc. The other issue that many of us struggle with was the lack of compassion in the church. When my brother died I distinctly remember hearing other FA members saying "well you weren't in the word enough or something in your walk must not have lined up with the message, this is why he died", we received more compassion and generosity from non christian friends and clients and traditional denominational people than we did from fellow church members. The loss of a child is a tragic thing regardless of what your faith is and one would think that these so called Christians could have put aside the elitist mentalities for a few days while a family grieves. I've read countless stories of where when someone died, other church members would go in and remove anything that had to do with FA from their home. When my grandmother died, she had been taken to the hospital the day before she died because her condition had worsened drastically. She was as sound of a Christian of anyone I ever knew. But I still to this day recall other FA members saying, well she might not make it to heaven because she went to the hospital. This is what many of us associate with church because that is all we know. It's not that we want some shallow watered down message, it's that FA didn't always offer the full package. Jesus wept when Lazurus died, you didn't see Jesus saying "well Lazurus must not have been in the word enough or something in his life didn't line up with the message". I also very distinctly remember when my brother's death hit the papers, I was asked about it at school and I had told some kids that we had prayed for his healing and I remember my parents punishing me because I had told people that we had prayed for his healing and not gone to the hospital. I remember thinking if this message is so good and so right, why do we have to keep quiet about it? They were facing charges of neglect, which fortunately were never pressed. We lived in fear for several years that my parents would be charged and put in jail. This was my childhood experience at FA and that of many other children who also lost siblings. I have a desire to get back in the scripture and I'm drawn back, but I'm confused on many issues as to what was scriptural and what was FA legalism. However, I don't want to put my kids through what I went through as a child. I want to let my kids be kids, bring them up in a Christian home, but allow them some opportunities that we weren't due to the upbringing in FA.
If we all maintained the status quo, how quickly we would fall!
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #200 is a reply to message #194] |
Wed, 22 March 2006 14:41 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
Member |
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Hello, All.
I have been up to my eyeballs in alligators at work, so I haven't had a chance to post in a while. Fortunately, I received final approval from management to hire someone. My newest employee should start on April 3. As for the board, I have been monitoring it, and I appreciate everyone's openness and the spirit in which they have posted. It is very refreshing to see this dialogue.
Here's my two cents worth of comments:
1) I agree with Hombre that Repetitious prayer is not needed. God knows what we need before we ask him. Prayer is just putting feet to our faith. The key word above is NEED. Many times we ask for what we want, but it is not always what God wants for us. Paul prayed 3 times for God to remove his thorn. God knew that Paul needed this thorn in order to totally rely on Him. Sometimes, God’s answer to us is “No.” It is up to us to be discerning enough to hear it when he says it.
2) On the heels of this comment, I will say that we are only looking at one small piece of God’s vast puzzle. We don’t always know what the big picture is going to turn out to be. As such, we pray for what we think we need, based on our limited knowledge. I am very careful in my prayer life to seek God’s will.
I agree with Cougar regarding the “name it and claim it” crowd. God is not some Santa Claus in the sky that we can go sit on his knee and tell him about all the goodies we want. There were many folks in this camp at FA who would pray for the Cadillac or the designer clothes. Unfortunately, there wasn’t much said to discourage this train of thought.
3) Let me throw this little curveball out to the group for discussion. As a caveat, let me first say that I neither agree nor disagree with what I am about to write. Rather, I would like your thoughts. Here it goes: If you believe that God predestined everything to occur from the foundation of the world, can anything technically happen that is not in God’s will? In other words, was it God’s will for children to die at FA? It happened, and God had to have predestined it before it happened. As such, was it part of His overall plan? Are we just looking at a tiny piece of the puzzle, and therefore unable to understand?
These are just some of my thoughts. I am going to stop here, because I don’t want anyone to think that I am trying to de-throne Hombre as the most prolific poster in the history message boards.
Have a great day! I will try to respond to any comments as I have time.
Duncan
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #325 is a reply to message #128] |
Sat, 19 August 2006 17:35 |
tomax7
Messages: 44
Registered: August 2006
Location: Calgary, AB |
Member |
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Hey great to see the discussion from my site here. Didn't know there were others 'out there' talking about Overcomers and Faith Assembly.
I have to agree with Anon's posting about what is the fruit of the movement, we're scattered little groups talking about the "good ol' days".
Our problem was we didn't "go out" but "stayed within". God had to break up FA just because of that - we were becoming a cult in all intensive means and methods.
Will we ever have another Brother Freeman? Dunno. I recall recantly hearing within myself Amos 8:11-13...
“The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign LORD, “when I will send a famine through the land — not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the Lord. [12] Men will stagger from sea to sea and wander from north to east, searching for the word of the LORD, but they will not find it. [13] In that day the lovely young women and strong young men will faint because of thirst..."
I think we are in those days now.
cheers
Tom
tom@tomax7.com
Remember to smile, God loves you!
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Remember to Smile! God loves you!
www.tomax7.com
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #585 is a reply to message #332] |
Mon, 30 July 2007 18:45 |
tomax7
Messages: 44
Registered: August 2006
Location: Calgary, AB |
Member |
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hey Bill
Just stopped in, sorry I should visit more, I apologize.
Where's all the postings, I see a lot from 2006, but not much this year, 2007.
cheers
tom
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Remember to Smile! God loves you!
www.tomax7.com
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| Re: From the Tomax site [message #1106 is a reply to message #128] |
Mon, 31 December 2007 21:24 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
Member |
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I was reading these posts and with the very first one things started to stir.
If one looks at recent history of the church through the 20th century. Azusa Str. Signs and wonders in the 50’ & 60’s. Then the concentration on the need for teaching of The Word. This was The Faith Message coming forth. The anointing came from the Word and didn’t require the signs and Wonders. They had preceded it. Were there signs and wonders? YES as I’m sure many can testify to as well as myself. Maybe not on the scale some might have preconceived notions of, never the less they did happen. God has confirmed time and again of him working and moving to the fulfillment of His Word. It’s not in the time frame we might desire. It is happening and he will complete the work he has begun.
As Hombre posted.
' Thomas,...because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.'
~ John 20:29
Red Letter Words.
Those words – Have not seen, and yet believe. The grandeur signs and wonders had already gone forth. The need at the time was on the Pure Word of God.
Did signs and wonders happen? YES
Did the anointing leave Faith Assembly? Possible
Is God still working today? YES
JRS
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