Home » Theological Doctrine » Eschatology » Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.`
| Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10821] |
Mon, 17 February 2014 07:35  |
 Marilyn Crow
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Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
Since you kindly asked for this book, I`ll address this to you. Thank you for your interest in my Uncle`s book, `Fires before the dawn,` written in 1992 but of much interest today.
I thought I`d start this thread for any discussion on the book or related topics, & then leave the other thread just for the book itself. Then the discussion, if any, & the chapters wont get muddled up, if you see what I mean.
Blessing, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10823 is a reply to message #10822] |
Mon, 17 February 2014 22:15  |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
There is no copyright on Uncle`s book. Amazing ay. He obviously just wanted to get the truth out there & not make any money on it. Auntie & Uncle are still alive but in a nursing home. They are in their `90`s & not long till they are with the Lord.
I hope to get the book scanned like you said. A friend is going to help me do this & then put it on a PDF so it can be arranged etc.
Unto Him be glory, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10855 is a reply to message #10829] |
Fri, 28 February 2014 08:24 |
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Gary
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Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
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Marilyn,
Don't know if you have ever read the book on "Moshe Dayan", a biography. He was there from the beginning as a very young man, during the time when the Balfour Declaration was being signed and later became a top general during the six day war.
In the book you sure can see the Hand of the Lord guiding and protecting them as a young nation.
When they first tried to return to Israel from Nazi Germany, the British would not allow them access to the country and they were forced to go back. Many returned and were smuggled into the nation under covert operations at night. England forbade them from having any weapons or shipping weapons in as well.
Egypt had billions of dollars of sophisticated weapons supplied by Russia and was vowing to push the Jews into the sea. Anyway to make a long story short, Israel had a few rusty weapons and defeated the Arab nations in just six days.
When the Arab nations was saying they were going to crush and destroy Israel many of the Palestinians left Israel, hoping to return later., while drooling over the fact that Israel was going to be destroyed. Many ended up in refuge camps or displaced in other countries to this day. This is what the Arab nations are making a big deal about now, but they were the ones who created the problem.
The Palestinians who stayed have been integrated into Israels society with full citizenship, and are treated fairly.
Its a very good book showing what took place during that early time period in Israel while she was forming as a nation. I think you might enjoy this book if you have not already read it.
It also tells how they came up with this concept of "drip irrigation", which was used to bring in water without wasting it, in a desert climate. In fact they use this same system now in many parts of California which is considered desert climate. This system helped Israel to bloom as a rose, with much produce that is supplied to the world.
Wanted to share this as the chapter you wrote in your uncles book reminded me of these details. Thanks for taking the time to share his book as I know it takes time to transcribe all the information.
In Him,
Gary
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10858 is a reply to message #10855] |
Fri, 28 February 2014 21:24 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
Thank you for that interesting info. Yes I have read different books about Israel`s beginning but don`t think I have read `Moshe Dayan.` Sounds very good. Britain certainly was not helpful to start with, just remembering that film, `Exodus,` which was quite graphic of the Jews plight back then.
Interesting about how they came up with the concept of `drip irrigation,` & how it is used in many places also. We use it here in our area for growing tomatoes & for the fruit trees also.
Glad you are enjoying Uncle`s book. My friend & I have scanned it & then converted it to my document section, so now all I do it copy & paste.
In His service, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10864 is a reply to message #10858] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 08:25 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
Well there you are, Russia, the `not so friendly bear,` is making its ownership felt (in the Ukraine). Many people thought after the Berlin wall came down that Russia was `friendly.` Well it just continues to show that `Perestroika,`a restructuring is still controlled by Communism. And the ethnic groups in these countries will keep fighting as in Yugoslavia. Remember the horror there.
It is interesting to see more of this turmoil (although very sad) as I post chapter 4 & 5 of `Fires before the dawn.` These chapters deal with Russia & what is even happening now.
Let`s pray that people turn to the Lord before it is too late.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10869 is a reply to message #10864] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 22:04 |
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Gary
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Location: Indiana |
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Marilyn,
I don't know if your heard of David Wilkerson sharing a "vision" the Lord gave him in the seventies or eighties. In this vision the Lord showed him eventually the Iron curtain would one day close and there would be the worst blood bath ever recorded in history to take place in Russia. That whole vision is interesting.
Russia, "the bear", is not intimidated by anyone or any country. I heard our president say; if Putin invaded the Ukraine that their would be costs.
Whatever that means; I don't think Putin is too concerned. At the same time, I do not think the world wants to go to war with Russia. They are saying the G8 meeting coming up in Sochi may be cancelled.
It will be interesting to see how all of this will play out on the world scene. Things could change overnight concerning this world and what is taking place.
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Gary
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10870 is a reply to message #10869] |
Mon, 03 March 2014 06:59 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
Thank you for those details. I had not heard of David Wilkerson`s vision of Russia after the Iron curtain was to come down. This will fit right in with chapter 5 of `Fires before the Dawn,` `Countdown to World War 3.`
So many momentous happenings in our life time & the worst is yet to come for the world.
Our only hope, eternal is in Christ. Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10874 is a reply to message #10870] |
Mon, 03 March 2014 13:15 |
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Gary
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Location: Indiana |
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| Quote: |
The republics face a crisis previously unknown in European history. They have a phenomenal task to repair the disastrous economic damage of seven decades of grossly inefficient state-owned monopolies. Food stocks are the lowest for decades. Three hundred million people are starving. They face a desperate fight for survival this winter. With the demise of the communist party another 15 million will be unemployed. Only one percent of Soviet military factories have diversified to civilian production.
Western economic experts estimate that the massive government printing of money has produced an inflation rate that could reach one thousand percent by the end of this year. The sheer immensity of this spiraling Russian economy would make Western and Japanese aid, however immense, appear minuscule by comparison. It would even fall short of making up Moscow's foreign exchange deficit.
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This was all true when the Iron Curtain came down. Shortly after there was a lot of major changes took place.
The first time I went to Russia it appeared they were a century behind us in their living conditions. It was like stepping back into time, the late 1800's or early 1900's. I was surprised at what I saw, and like I said; I felt like we had stepped back into time and were getting a glimpse of how it was maybe 100 years ago in America.
The following year we made another trip into Moscow and took a twelve hour train trip to Saratov. This was a university town originally built by the Germans. This took place in the mid nineties. My how things had changed in just a years time.
The main government store in Moscow called "Gum" but pronounced "Goome" had totally changed. It was full of American goods, name brands that are common over here lined the shelves of this giant warehouse size store.
Moscow had been flooded with American fast food restaurants as well. The McDonalds boasted of being the largest in the world and the day we went there it was packed out with Russian people.
They went through many changes and had become westernized to some degree. College was free in Russia and many of the young people we met were very educated, especially in the town called Saratov.
Russia sells oil to the world so they did have a source of money to improve their living conditions. I don't know if this is what helped them and their economy or maybe the tourist trade with many going to Russia for their vacations. Whatever the case major changes took place in just a short amount of time.
With all that took place I realize there are many hard liners who reject the western way of living. It looks like they still have major control over the country. Communism is not dead, its just the "Bear" appears to have been sleeping.
I was surprised to see on the nightly news they showed a map of Russia and it showed the Ukraine as being a very large section of the country. But when you look on a real world map the Ukraine is very small in comparison to the whole country of Russia, but it is directly North of Israel. I don't know why they showed a distorted view of their map unless it was an oversight.
It would be nice if William could put a post with a view of a world map showing this section of the world. I think its good to look at the map to get a perspective of what is being shared here. I don't know if that's possible on a board like this, Ay William, What do you think?
Gary
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10875 is a reply to message #10874] |
Mon, 03 March 2014 22:11 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
Thank you for telling us of your experiences in Russia years ago before & after `Perestroika,` in the `90`s. Did you see the effect of the restructuring as they call it, in any of the other countries?
I have just read `In the Empire of Genghis Khan,` by Stanley Stewart. He went for a 1,000 mile journey on horse back among the nomads of Mongolia. This part relates to our conversation, -
`All over the Communist world the collapse of the old regimes brought hardships. In Mongolia the transition to a market economy was exacerbated by the withdrawal of Russian subsidies. The Soviet Union`s strategic interests in Mongolia has allowed the country to live far beyond its means.
Within months of the end of the Russian subsides Mongolia was broke. Inflation, devaluation, shortages, rationing all followed quickly on one another. Most state industries, centred around Ulan Batur, were crippled, & in the countryside everything from local power stations to medical clinics closed down. Their employee, most of the first & second generation townsfolk, returned to their family pastures. Mongolia became one of the only places in the world where the drift to cities was reversed. In their hour of need urban Mongolians were rescued by the self-sufficiency of the nomadic life to which the rest of their countrymen had clung tenaciously for millennia. The lesson was not lost on traditionalists.`
It must have been very difficult for people when the central control withdrew its support. And there today we see the `bear`s claws` in Ukraine not letting it go.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10880 is a reply to message #10879] |
Mon, 03 March 2014 22:45 |
Marilyn Crow
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Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Thanks William for the help regarding downloading maps. it seems mine came up very big but gives us an idea of that area.
Here is a bit of History of the CIS - Commonwealth of Independent States. Reference is Wikipedia.
History
The organization was founded on 8 December 1991 by the Republic of Belarus, the Russian Federation, and Ukraine, when the leaders of the three countries met in the Belovezhskaya Pushcha Natural Reserve, about 50 km (30 miles) north of Brest in Belarus and signed a Creation Agreement (Russian: Соглашение, Soglasheniye) on the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the creation of CIS as a successor entity to the USSR. At the same time they announced that the new alliance would be open to all republics of the former Soviet Union, as well as other nations sharing the same goals. The CIS charter stated that all the members were sovereign and independent nations and thereby effectively abolished the Soviet Union.
On 21 December 1991, the leaders of eight additional former Soviet Republics – Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan – signed the Alma-Ata Protocol and joined the CIS, thus bringing the number of participating countries to 11. Georgia joined two years later, in December 1993. At this point, 12 former Soviet Republics (all except the Baltic States) participated in the CIS.
Although Ukraine was one of the three founding countries and ratified the Creation Agreement in December 1991, Ukraine did not choose to ratify the CIS Charter as it disagrees with Russia being the only legal successor of the Soviet Union. Thus it does not regard itself as a member of the CIS.`
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10883 is a reply to message #10882] |
Wed, 05 March 2014 00:05 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
Yes it certainly helps to have these maps. And how detailed is God`s word concerning the events leading up to His second coming. So we now have the leader of Russia & not the leader of the former USSR. Plus we see that Russia is `friendly` with Iran, Libya & Ethiopia, the specific countries mentioned by the prophet Ezekiel as the countries to join with Russia coming down to the mountains of Israel.
If you look at the previous map & mark out Russia & the CIS, Commonwealth of Independent States, plus Iran, Libya & Ethiopia & imagine 5/6ths of their armies wiped out (Ez. 39: 2 KJ)it leaves a huge power vacuum there.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10884 is a reply to message #10883] |
Wed, 05 March 2014 12:18 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
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Hi Marilyn,
These maps definitely makes these posts wider, but I like the bigger view of the map.
I was thinking about this and looking at the map. Russia and her neighbors have this large amount of land mass, most of which is not populated, at least in Russia there are large area with no people living in them.
But here we see all these large countries all concerned about the little small area owned by the Israelies, Israel. It don't make sense why the world is all concerned about one small patch of land.
I have been looking into some of the history of Cyprus, and was curious why does this nation that is part of the EU try to attack the Antichrist as prophesied. Not trying to get off track here concerning Russia but the Lord mentions this in scripture for a reason.
I have been keeping up on world events, I thought it was humorous that Putin said, there are no Russian troops in the Ukraine. That is a type of how the Antichrist will lie to the world and speak great swelling words.
The United States is no longer a threat to the world is obvious. Our government does not have the backbone to stand up to Russia and we don't realize all the smaller nations are taking notes. At least that is my opinion.
I don't understand Putin's motive for advancing into the Ukraine as no one is threatening the Russian citizens, so this is no more then an excuse to obtain more land, "or" things are being set into motion to fulfill the prophesies in the OT.
I see what your saying a huge vacuum that will be filled by the one world ruler. Have your heard that a lot of Russian weapons are made of a compressed wood that is as strong as steel, but will burn like coal? There was several end time books going around that spoke about this.
During that battle it says their eyes will melt from their sockets. Some say this is nuclear weapons being used. Either way God does not need anything nuclear to deal with the matter. But I find it interesting the description that the Bible gives.
We may all be closer to the end then what we even realize.
Gary
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10887 is a reply to message #10884] |
Wed, 05 March 2014 21:40 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
Good to chat. You have some interesting questions. Firstly, why do you say -
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`I have been looking into some of the history of Cyprus, and was curious why does this nation that is part of the EU try to attack the Antichrist as prophesied`
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Interested to hear your thoughts. Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10888 is a reply to message #10887] |
Thu, 06 March 2014 10:09 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 05 March 2014 16:40 |
Hi Gary,
Good to chat. You have some interesting questions. Firstly, why do you say -
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`I have been looking into some of the history of Cyprus, and was curious why does this nation that is part of the EU try to attack the Antichrist as prophesied`
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Interested to hear your thoughts. Marilyn.
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I was speaking of these scriptures in Daniel:
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Daniel 11:29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.
“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.
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Whatever is taking place here, the Lord tells his disciples that "when you see the abomination of desolation to flee to the mountains."
One small country called Cyprus attacks the one world ruler and he goes into a rage, then he moves against Jerusalem and takes away the daily sacrifice.
But I don't have all the answers here and was curious about this scripture. Wikipedia gives an interesting picture of its history. Everyone from Alexander the great to Rome has conquered this nation. Now they are a member of the EU.
I was toying with the idea that it is mentioned in scripture and is part of the EU, so maybe there is a reason here why the historical view has sided with the EU as being the ten toes spoken of in Daniel.
At this moment in time I am ruling out the EU because they have grown to 27 nations. Hope that answers your question and I made it plain enough.
While I am thinking about it, I was surprised you had not heard of the vision given to David Wilkerson. I just assumed that was something that everyone in the world had heard of. Thinking about it, I guess that was given to the churches in America concerning some things that would take place in this country.
He was given an open eye vision concerning the end times in
this country. Most of it has come to pass but somethings are yet to be fulfilled. I always had believed this was from the Lord.
I need to get the book out again and review what he shared, since he did mention Russia in this vision. It was a big deal over here in the eighties and I think most charismatics have heard of it in the states.
I'm sure now things have probably taken place in Australia that we have not heard of as well. You hear so much negative about the church in America on the internet, but there has been a lot of good things that were of the Lord that no one has heard about.
Anyway I was surprised you had not heard of this vision.
Gary
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10890 is a reply to message #10888] |
Thu, 06 March 2014 21:43 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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`Morning Gary,
Thank you for your reply. I also found Cyprus attacking the Anti-Christ strange from the historic side. Why would it attack its own leader?
And talking of joining the EU, that is what many in Ukraine want to do, but their former President didn`t want to & took bribes from Russia to not join. And now the unrest has spread to the Crimea. Just as in Georgia many years age, now in Ukraine etc Russia will not let its former territories go. Ukraine actually was a founding member of the CIS, Commonwealth of Independent states but had withdrawn when Russia said it was the custodian of the former USSR. So much `chest beating.`
It will be interesting to read the next chapter of `Fires before the dawn,` concerning the EU, its origin & purpose.
About the prophecy of D. Wilkerson, here in Australia in the Apostolic movement our origins were from England, Wales & Scotland so that is where we received our prophecies as well as from our own prophets.
Have a good day, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10897 is a reply to message #10896] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 12:01 |
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Gary
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Location: Indiana |
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One more thing, It sure looks like this thing going on with the Ukraine could escalate into something serious. Putin said, if there is sanctions against Russia that it may come back to America like a boomerang. Many European countries are dependent on Russian Oil.
Our economy is already getting out of hand, inflation is slowly escalating with gas, food prices, or anything involving energy. The dollar does not go as far these days. Unemployment is rampant in spite of what the media is telling everyone. Their telling us that more people are getting off of unemployment, well that's true, but what they are not saying is that many are setting home and cannot draw unemployment, nor find work.
Between Russia and the Arab countries they could put the hurt on the whole world if they stopped production of oil.
Every report I have read seems like the EU and America have their hands tied in dealing with Ukraine. Only an all out war could stop the Russian Bear's aggression of the Ukraine.
Its interesting though, that the Crimea is welcoming Russia into that part of the country. That is the better section of the Ukraine as it sits right at the Black Sea.
Gary
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10898 is a reply to message #10896] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 22:20 |
Marilyn Crow
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Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
Yes I am putting down Uncle`s book word for word. I`m not quite sure what you mean about him having prior knowledge as though that disqualifies you to write about it. We all have knowledge of certain parts of history. But I don`t think that is what you are saying, however it has come across that way.
Uncle, Ps. Gardiner actually preached on these topics back in the `60`s & `70`s travelling the world & in most denominations. There was a big interest back then on end-times because of Israel becoming a nation & the 6 day war etc. Then over the years the EU has gone through many changes & is even now nearing its Political/Economic goal of centralised government.
Sorry if I have misinterpreted you. Remember he wrote this in 1992 & it has not been revised but out of print due to finance I think.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10900 is a reply to message #10899] |
Sun, 09 March 2014 00:28 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
I understand why you said that now, as you thought the book was written many years before that. Now I actually have some tapes of Uncle preaching in the `70`s on end-times - very interesting & anointed preaching.
I also agree that the Lord`s return will be soon - few years. I believe we`ll probably see the beginning of the Russian war when the Lord brings Russia & the others down to the mountains of Israel. It will be in God`s timing as we know & not Russia`s. And I do agree it will be for booty & warm sea ports.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10905 is a reply to message #10904] |
Sun, 09 March 2014 21:49 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary,
Thank you for the feed back re the book. Also next time I share with others I will bring in those details of the statue that you said were helpful. I think when I was sharing I just wanted to give you the main points & not overload you with too much detail. But as you said it would have been helpful I will keep that in mind.
About the tapes, I will ask Gillyann about that. She would know how to get them downloaded here as she has done hours of taping.
The different names of the generations as far as I know are -
The Baby Boomers - (us) being the babies who came after the war.
Generation X - I think `X` to do with the atomic weapons. The possibility of us all being wiped out.(?)
The Millennium generation - because they were born in this new millennium 2000.
I`ll get busy now & post some more of the book.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10906 is a reply to message #10905] |
Sun, 09 March 2014 21:51 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gilly,
How are you? We`re needing your help here. I have some tapes of my Uncle speaking on the end-times & I wondered how I can get them on the board here. Can you tell me the process please?
Blessings, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10915 is a reply to message #10906] |
Wed, 12 March 2014 06:06 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
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Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary & other readers,
You may be interested to know some thoughts I had on this -
` In those days men will seek death & will not find it: they will desire to die, & death will flee from them.` (Rev. 9: 6)
Most amazing scripture. In the context re the tribulation this is from the 5th trumpet which signals the first woe. And woe it is for `locusts,` demons have been loosed from the pit & swarm over the earth tormenting those who have not bee sealed of God. They paralyse people with a sting like a scorpion, & the pain is so great people would rather die, but they are unable to as they cannot move or call out - paralysed. It is a taste of hell but still they do not repent.
The demon`s leader, Satan, is called Apollyon, meaning destroyer, & his intent is to destroy much of mankind & set himself as Ruler, King of the World.
The symbolic description of the demon `locusts` show their war-like intent, deceptive character & horrendeous torment.
Makes one appreciate that believers following Jesus will not be under such torment.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10917 is a reply to message #10915] |
Wed, 12 March 2014 07:57 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
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Location: Indiana |
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| Quote: |
Your Uncle Wrote:
It is vitally important to understand that all "Born again" Christians have previously been "caught up" to meet the Lord, to reign with Him in heaven (1 Thess. 4:15-17). They are definitely, conclusively and scripturally not subject to the wrath of God (1 Thess. 5:9 & Rev. 3¬10). This truth has been extensively covered in a separate chapter.
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Marilyn,
While I can respect where your Uncle is coming from I don't believe this is how the Bible presents the "Catching Away".
Even the historical view presents this picture of millions of born again believers going up in a rapture.
The Bible gives us a picture of 10 virgins, five wise and five foolish. Five made ready for what was going to take place.
You know this parable and all the others as well.
When Born Again believers while saved, reject the council of God, its hard to believe that God is going to take just anyone whether their following Him or not.
If men take the Word of God and make all their own rules and explain away vital parts of the Bible, Do you honestly believe everyone is going to be caught away?
There are a lot of good people out there who have been born again, but have received indoctrination of ideas and concepts not found in the scriptures.
Even for Spirit filled believers it is a warfare to pay the price and press into the things of God.
Look at this portion of Scripture:
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12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
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The devil is ready to attack this woman at the beginning of tribulation, her child is caught up to the throne of God. Her child is those who paid the price and are the five wise virgins that made themselves ready.
Why would the devil destroy this woman who will go through the first 3 1/2 years of tribulation?
Its because this is the church who are born again but not fully understanding the way of God. It says God is going to feed this woman during this time.
This is non other then the unbelieving church. While God is going to help this woman I think the reason the scriptures show feeding her for 3 1/2 years is because she will be taken out of the earth at the end of this time.
What happens next? The devil is going to make war with her offspring that is left on the earth.
This woman has the teachings of the apostles and this is represented as the garland of twelve stars on her head. But as we know many in the system reject many of the teaching in the Bible at this point in time.
They say; the Baptism of the Spirit is not for today or they have it without the tongues experience, Healing was only while Jesus walked the earth and they say not for today, the gifts were done away with from the 1st century on, etc, etc..
We have thousands of denominations that do not believe much of what Jesus taught.
When you take a good look at scriptures and a good look at the system today, whether a denomination or Charismatic, Can you honestly believe in the light of what Jesus said, That just because your born again that this is all that is required of us to be caught away?
Will write more later but would like to discuss this further.
Do you today believe just being born again is all that is needed to be caught away? I could understand a new babe in Christ but when someone has been indoctrinated and does not believe that all of the Bible is for today, is another matter.
Gary
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10919 is a reply to message #10915] |
Wed, 12 March 2014 14:10 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 12 March 2014 01:06 |
Hi Gary & other readers,
You may be interested to know some thoughts I had on this -
` In those days men will seek death & will not find it: they will desire to die, & death will flee from them.` (Rev. 9: 6)
Most amazing scripture. In the context re the tribulation this is from the 5th trumpet which signals the first woe. And woe it is for `locusts,` demons have been loosed from the pit & swarm over the earth tormenting those who have not bee sealed of God. They paralyse people with a sting like a scorpion, & the pain is so great people would rather die, but they are unable to as they cannot move or call out - paralysed. It is a taste of hell but still they do not repent.
The demon`s leader, Satan, is called Apollyon, meaning destroyer, & his intent is to destroy much of mankind & set himself as Ruler, King of the World.
The symbolic description of the demon `locusts` show their war-like intent, deceptive character & horrendeous torment.
Makes one appreciate that believers following Jesus will not be under such torment.
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Here's this scripture you speak of:
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9 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
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Those who have the seal of God on their foreheads will not be hurt. This shows that there will be followers or believers "there during the tribulation".
But God will be protecting them by placing a seal on their foreheads that these locusts will be able to tell who is of the world and who is a believer.
Their power was to hurt men for five months, I don't see where it says they were paralyzed unless your taking literally what happens when a person is stung by a real scorpion, which brings death. In this case death will flee from them and they will not be able to die:
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7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.
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I guess I never took a close look at this scripture. Its interesting that power was given to "them", and they came out of the smoke from the bottomless pit that was opened.
One more thing the people of the world have taken a mark in their foreheads and it is interesting that God has placed a seal in the foreheads of His people who are there during this time.
This gives us a clue that some Christians will go through the tribulation.
Gary
Just throwing in two cents worth of information here.
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10923 is a reply to message #10919] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 07:59 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
I`m thinking over your last 2 posts before I reply & I wondered if we should continue this particular topic that you have raised on another thread so as not to mix it with the flow of `Fires before the Dawn.`
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10924 is a reply to message #10923] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 12:59 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Thu, 13 March 2014 02:59 |
Hi Gary,
I`m thinking over your last 2 posts before I reply & I wondered if we should continue this particular topic that you have raised on another thread so as not to mix it with the flow of `Fires before the Dawn.`
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Marilyn,
I can understand the second post concerning the locusts as this is not discussed in the book and was just a passing comment that you made and maybe should be used in another post maybe under Revelations. That's what I mentioned early on and we all know from writing its easy to get off on a tangent not even dealing with the thread.
But the first post I asked you about is a direct quote from your Uncles book. I don't know if its good to spread a discussion through several posts if it is directly quoted if you know what I mean.
It appears your Uncle has sided with the historical view and that is thinking that everyone who is born again is automatically caught away.
I was thinking about this later and remembered what Jesus said, and that is, two will be sleeping, one taken one left, two will be working one left the other taken, and then finally two will be in the field one taken and the other left. I always thought this scripture meant one saved and one unsaved but this is not necessarily true in light of the scripture.
But if you mean to discuss this in another post concerning Revelation 12 and 14, I can understand this as well. I realize somewhere you'll need to consider all of this and come to a conclusion, concerning this mysterious woman with twelve stars on her head who appears in heaven. You have probably heard the historical view that this is Mary with the child Jesus. But as we all know Jesus did not go to heaven as soon as He was born. More later on all of this.
You know its possible that all of us while growing up in Christ have things that we now look at and have to reevaluate. A lot of things we heard when we were younger in the Lord we just accepted it with no question because of who was telling us or we just plain did not take the time to look it up and understand it better. Many things we were taught was just the accepted norm in Christian circles, and no one would think of questioning an Apostle, Prophet, or Teacher of the Word who had walked a few years with the Lord and had His anointing. But as we see in scripture there was a number of times Peter was wrong on things and Paul shared with him in public and even a few times rebuked him openly. Its just part of human nature I guess.
Anyway I said all of this because I ran across another situation here in your Uncles book. Now I am not trying to be offensive on this but only bringing these things up for discussion. I realize many times men write things and quote things they heard and assume they are given the correct information. I can tell you dozens of things I have been taught over the years but have since found out it was not the way it was told.
I was interested in the statement your Uncle made concerning the Russian language. As you know my wife and I studied Russian for several years, while not fluent in this language I do have a basic working knowledge of it. I tried to find the translation that your Uncle gave concerning Chernobyl.
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Your Uncle Wrote:
Consistently the prophets in the Bible have described this as a time of unmitigated calamity. One of the disasters predicted is specifically described as poisoning waters and causing widespread death. (Rev. 8:10-11) It is called "Wormwood". The Russian word for "Wormwood" is "Chernobyl".
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I could not find this word translated this way at all. I still have contact with my former Russian teacher, who was born and raised in Russia, she taught English in Moscow at the University and now has moved to America and teaches Russian in one of the top five Universities in the Country.
I printed this quote above from your Uncles book and emailed it to her and explained I could not find this word translated this way. It turns out this word is not translated this way at all, and she included a little humor in her reply:
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That was some drunk translator! not as far as I know and not according to the dictionaries I have consulted. Wormwood is some herb that is used in medicine and in brewing. It has a bitter taste.
Do you need more information and/ or a Russian word for it--in Russian it sounds like "pohlyn"?
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In this situation we have to take a look at this scripture in its context:
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Rev 8:10
And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11
And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
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The Word says a "star" fell from heaven and this is what made the waters bitter, and became known as Wormwood. These bitter waters caused men to die when they drank them.
I think in this case I would have to take the literal meaning in the Bible. In the OT God many times used the Earth and its contents to destroy the wicked. Whether it was through floods, insects, frogs, or other elements from the Earth. Why couldn't a star or meteorite fall from the sky and poison the waters? We recently saw a giant meteorite fall into Russia.
Now in discussing this I'm not trying to pick on your Uncles book, but trying to come to further understanding on what will take place here. I'm sure you would side with scripture as well, all teachings should show unrefutable evidence that would further prove the scriptures and what they are showing.
I hope you understand what I am saying here; that this word (Wormwood) is not translated Chernobyl in the Russian language. We need to go back to square one and take a good look at the Bible on this. Any thoughts on this?
Gary
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10926 is a reply to message #10924] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 21:42 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
Thank you for all those insightful comments. I do agree that when we study Revelation 12 etc that then we will need a different thread. As regards Uncle`s comments on the `Rapture,` he did say that this truth has been covered in a separate chapter. So as he didn`t expand on what he meant maybe we can leave the fuller discussion till then. I would say that Uncle & I would agree with your comments & James` also.
Gary said -
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`When Born Again believers while saved, reject the council of God, its hard to believe that God is going to take just anyone whether their following Him or not.
If men take the Word of God and make all their own rules and explain away vital parts of the Bible, Do you honestly believe everyone is going to be caught away?`
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James said -
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`A true follower of Jesus is obedient in ALL things commanded in The Word of God, or else as James wrote, their religion is vain.`
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Now as regarding `Wormwood & Chernobyl` here is some thoughts referenced from Wikipedia.
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`Various scientific scenarios have been theorized on the effects of an asteroid or comet's collision with Earth. An applicable scenario theorizes a chemical change in the atmosphere due to "heat shock" during entry and/or impact of a large asteroid or comet, reacting oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere to produce nitric-acid rain. Acid rain from the heat shock of a large comet or asteroid's impact with Earth is believed by some to fit the Biblical description of the bitterness produced by the Wormwood Star upon a third of the Earth's potable water.
Gerardus D. Bouw in his white paper "Wormwood" theorizes that since the term wormwood refers to a bitter or poisonous plant, specifically "apsinthos, that is, absinthe wormwood" in Revelations 8:11 and that a star falling would likely be an asteroid or comet ... the most reasonable scenario being a comet, since they could have a chemical makeup that would make the waters bitter and poisonous and would have to break up by some means, "in order to fall on deep sources of water and rivers, the object cannot be in one piece when it arrives in the atmosphere."
A number of Bible scholars consider the term Wormwood to be a purely symbolic representation of the bitterness that will fill the earth during troubled times, noting that the plant for which Wormwood is named, Artemisia absinthium, or Mugwort, Artemisia vulgaris, is a known Biblical metaphor for things that are unpalatably bitter.
One interesting theory is that nuclear weaponry could be called wormwood. For example: Ukrainian synonymy 'wormwood'. They do poison the water where they are detonated, thus explaining the correlation. Some even point to the Chernobyl disaster as a possible fulfillment of this prophecy, as the name Chernobyl is said to translate to "wormwood.”
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I do think it is good to check out what people write so I have no trouble with questions & other thoughts.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10929 is a reply to message #10928] |
Fri, 14 March 2014 21:31 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
Yes stuff does get thrown around. My thoughts are that the people who remember Chernobyl & were effected by it would have the words `bitter, poison,` come to mind in relation to the word Chernobyl - a synonym. Just like Americans would have the words `terrorist attack,` when you say 9/11. I think the point people are trying to make is that it is an example of `poisoned waters.`
[Updated on: Fri, 14 March 2014 21:56]
Marilyn C
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| Re: Discussion of `Fires before the Dawn.` [message #10932 is a reply to message #10929] |
Sat, 15 March 2014 08:49 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Fri, 14 March 2014 16:31 |
Hi Gary,
Yes stuff does get thrown around. My thoughts are that the people who remember Chernobyl & were effected by it would have the words `bitter, poison,` come to mind in relation to the word Chernobyl - a synonym. Just like Americans would have the words `terrorist attack,` when you say 9/11. I think the point people are trying to make is that it is an example of `poisoned waters.`
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Marilyn,
I don't think this is the point that is implied. Sure water becomes poisoned or bitter when certain chemicals or radiation is added. Well let's say its poisoned we do not know if it is bitter unless someone was to taste it, which we know from scripture that it is bitter.
Many times of late we have seen major oil spills in the ocean, what happens?, the water becomes poisoned, or maybe one could say bitter.
But that does not give anyone the right to tell everybody:
Wormwood means oil in Russian or how about if I use Wikipedias way interpretation, like this:
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Wikipedia shows: One interesting theory is that oil could be called wormwood. For example: Ukrainian synonymy 'wormwood'. They do poison the water where they are spilled, thus explaining the correlation. Some even point to the Oil spill in Alaska disaster as a possible fulfillment of this prophecy, as the name "oil" is said to translate to "wormwood.”
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That is a totally bogus statement the way I worded it, by the same token trying to fit the Chernobyl disaster into this is doing the same thing. There is no scriptural basis for this way of thinking.
Thousands of chemicals poison water, and some may have a bitter taste. But that does not give anyone the right to say wormwood means something it does not.
We don't have to make man's modern day toys try to fit scripture to prove a point is all I am saying, especially when we make a statement and say; This word is translated Wormwood when it is not.
I don't know why it is hard to take the scriptures at face value. Let's look again at this scripture:
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10 Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.
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The Bible says a "great star" fell from the heavens and "it" was called "wormwood". So, a third of the waters become "wormwood".
Men died from the water because it was made bitter.
The Lord God does not need Chernobyl, nuclear radiation, or oil to make the waters bitter. He said He is going to drop a great star into the waters and they will become bitter. Men are saying some kind of nuclear radiation is going to leak into the water just like Chernobyl and it will make the waters bitter.
If it is true what men are saying, what happened to the great star that fell from the heavens? The great star that is called "Wormwood"?
No Christian has the right to change God's word to fit their theology. God says a great star will fall called wormwood, men say Chernobyl means wormwood and we all know radiation makes water poisoned or is bitter.
If this is the case we can read into the Word of God and make it say whatever we want to fit whatever event comes along. If the scriptures do not mention nuclear radiation but says that this star will make the waters bitter, I would think we could all agree that this star called wormwood is what is taking place, and it alone is the cause of the water becoming bitter.
If you read this scripture in revelations concerning wormwood, it does not give an open invitation to assume any other interpretation. Were called to rightly divide the Word of God.
The reason the body is divided into thousands of denominations is because men come along and try to make it fit their theology through thousands of interpretations.
God is not the author of confusion and when it comes to His Word we have to take a serious look at what God is saying and not when men say about it. Does everyone understand the importance of hearing what God is saying?
I hope you can acknowledge and understand here what I am sharing. In the scripture its not showing Chernobyl, radiation poisoning making bitter water, or saying this is a Ukrainian synonym, or any other interpretation men may have but the scripture says "plainly" its a great star from heaven "called" wormwood, this is what makes the water bitter and men will die from it during the tribulation.
When someone tells me Wormwood in Russian means Chernobyl or Chernobyl in Ukrainian means wormwood when neither language is translated this way, then it makes the whole line of thinking bogus to try and imply otherwise. Again, when it comes to the Book of Revelation we have to let scripture speak for itself, if God says this is what is taking place then I have to believe the Lord knows what He is doing in showing it to us this way. It is a very small thing for the "Ancient of Days" to drop a great star into the waters, after all He created all this, and will be glorified through it.
Gary
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