Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » Once Saved Always Saved
| Once Saved Always Saved [message #666] |
Thu, 13 September 2007 17:18  |
 Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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I have experience with Faith Assembly doctrine but help me out here. After several years of knowing the body my wife was informed by Russel Tardo a Word minister I believe from Louisiana that Hobart Freeman taught once you are saved you always are saved. He claimed he had taught at FA and knew this for sure.
I had not picked up on that before. I know he (HF) taught very strong holiness but I know of others who do and also believe that doctrine.
Can anyone confirm or deny if FA believed once saved always saved?
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| Re: Once Saved Always Saved [message #680 is a reply to message #678] |
Tue, 18 September 2007 01:24  |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Ref :
(So was HF saying there is the true elect that will be preserved and kept to the end and there is another group who CAN get saved and then either endure to the end or fall away and be lost?
Is the second teaching saying this or will the second group ultimately fall because they are not elect? Were they given grace or not? )
You have the artical from Bro Freemans teachings,what does it say ?
Ref:
What is YOUR opinion?
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
What was HIS?
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Ref
(Were they given grace or not? ) Yes ! we have all been given Grace !
But, Romans 1:18-32 shows that some refused to walk in His Grace therefore He gave them His Wrath!
Oh my, I know this is not the God that is taught in churches today.
Grace ? Love ? ours or His ? defined by whos standard ?
Is it fair....that God save Israel & not Egypt ?
Is it fair..... that God saved Noah & destroyed the whole world ?
Is it fair......That God saved us and not someone else ?
I think the term : Sovereignty of God: answers it all.
God can do what He wants,when He wants an how He wants, with out ever asking our opinion about it.
And He is right & just in what ever He does,whether we like it or not !
Ron
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| Re: Once Saved Always Saved [message #691 is a reply to message #686] |
Wed, 19 September 2007 01:01 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Michael, I'am not sure of the fruitfullness of this disscussion.
Why ?
If Bro Freeman was in Error (as you say) on The God Head: how could you trust anything else he taught ?
(Michael :Your message #665)
( Although Bro Freeman seemed like he was way out there on the cutting edge to the Faith Assembly members he actually did not teach much different than Protestants concerning foundation doctrines.
He tried to keep such a close balance between Trinity and the actual truth. I heard him say the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. There is not 3 Gods there is one! Yet then he turned and tried to say it was Oneness who were in error. I believe his theology failed there.)
(Michael: Your message #665)
(Same thing concerning salvation/new birth. I heard him teach you can be saved and not be baptized. Yet also he would say you cannot be a DISCIPLE unless you are baptized in Jesus name. Yet at other times he would teach a Christian and a disciple are the same thing.
He taught the same about the baptism in the Holy Spirit. You can be saved without it. At times he would contradict himself on these issues. He once said the Lord gave him "as the body without the spirit is dead" and then stopped. There were several other foundation issues where I felt HF was teaching error.)
Could you give us Title & tape number on this teaching ? That you said HEF was in ERROR....We are open to Truth.
Could you also send me the 10 point statement of Faith Paper ?
Mike I was a personal friend of Stan Hills,ate with him,traveled with him share with him an received much wisdom & knowledge
from him an yet he never said anything Ref(10 point statement of faith paper)
Well Mike, My answers may be some what influenced by the ERRORS that YOU SAY HEF TAUGHT so they would be of
No value to you at this point
Farewell
Ron
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| Re: Once Saved Always Saved [message #701 is a reply to message #686] |
Sun, 23 September 2007 13:09 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Bro Mike,
Let me try to put in my own words.
The Term: (Once saved Always Saved) brings these thoughts to my mind........
Well, I accepted Jesus an He knows my heart, it really doesn't matter how I live or what I believe: When I sin its ok:God knows that
I'am weak: No !....I don't fear God...It's ok to live as the world does,God doesn't expect us to be perfect.Study the Bible? Why ?
I'am Saved, an I live better than most members in my church.
The Term:(Eternal Security) my thoughts on this.
When I received Christ as my Lord & Savior, that just opened the door as my first step into his Kingdom (follow Me, Jesus said)
I have to keep activily following Him. If I do this, I'am secure knowing that I will make it in. Ps 91 He who dwells in the secret place
of the Most High Shall............(thru end of chapter)....... to His(My) Salvation.
If.... by my own choice, I stop dwelling in that secret place, then I have no guarantee that will happen.
If I stopped now, was I saved in the begining...I thought I was...Was Grace given? Yes!
How will I know, if... I am one of the Choosen or Elect ? By what choices I make in this life. When will I know ? In Glory Land.
I can't speak for Bro Freeman, in Ref to His thoughts on the subject: but this is what I got from his teachings over the years.
Ron
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| Re: Once Saved Always Saved [message #703 is a reply to message #666] |
Mon, 24 September 2007 18:34 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
Member |
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Mike / Ron,
The term "Once Saved - Always Saved" was/is a denominational term that HEF pounded on not infrequently. Even to this day, the term still rubs me the wrong way because of his comments on it.
That being said, I am a strong believer in the concept in the form of eternal security.
The issue that HEF and many FA/former FA folks have (in my opinion) is that they believe most people who believe this are using it to justify living in sin. I do not dispute that there are many in the institutional church that feel this way.
My take on it is this: When I received the free gift that was offered to my by Jesus, I became a "new creation." I still do what I want to do, but the difference is that Jesus changed my "want to." I no longer want to do the things I did before. If I stumble off the narrow way, it rips me up inside. I want to do whatever I can to get myself back on the path.
People who use this doctrine as an excuse to live like the world never became a new creation in the first place. Otherwise, their "want to" would have been changed.
Finally, I believe that if my salvation was dependent upon what I did or didn't do (or if I were to backslide along the way), then this would make my salvation to be based upon works and not upon God's grace.
I liken this to God's chosen nation, Israel. The Word states that He chose them above all other nations. They rejected Jesus (which allowed for us to be saved), but they will still be brought back into the fold through the Great Tribulation. Jesus will eventually be their King when the millennium gets here.
All that is to say - even though Israel turned their back on God, He has promised to restore them again as His chosen nation.
There are many instances in the Bible where people turned their back on God for a time (David, Sampson, Peter, the fornicator mentioned in I Corinthians), but they did not lose their salvation. They were punished for their sins and restored to fellowship.
Just my take on the discussion.
Have a great day!
Duncan
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| Re: Once Saved Always Saved [message #709 is a reply to message #703] |
Tue, 25 September 2007 16:59 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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Well I see that there is a predestined "elect". What I cannot fully embrace is that they are all guarenteed to make it to the end.
Scriptures like this hinder me from having faith in that doctrine.
1: And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2: Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
That these are Saints is proved by several facts.
Verse 2. If they were tares why did they have something with God that needed to be strengthened? It was ready to die. A tare is a tare. It cannot have life with God.
Verse 3. Why would Jesus tell tares to hold fast what they had? A tare has nothing to begin with for he is a child of the devil.
Verse 5. Do tares have their names in the book of life? I see no way that can be true. Jesus seems to be talking to certain members of HIS ELECT.
Jesus does not seem to be just encouraging his people that they will make it. Rather he is telling them if they do not overcome he will blot them out of his book.
Just dont sound like eternal security is emphasized here but rather the threat of losing salvation per verse 5.
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| Re: Once Saved Always Saved [message #710 is a reply to message #709] |
Tue, 25 September 2007 18:06 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
Member |
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I think there is a difference between tares and carnal Christians.
Jesus states in Matthew 7 that "not everyone who says unto me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom, but those that do the will of my Father." It is my belief that many in the institutional church believe they are Christians because they go to church every Sunday and sing in the choir. I would consider these people the "tares." They were never saved in the first place.
I believe the Bible is clear that there are also carnal Christians, but they are still Christians. In I Corinthians 3, Paul tells us that all Christians must build on the foundation of Jesus. However, some build with wood, hay and stubble. In the end, their works will be burned, but they will be saved "as by fire." (verse 15).
It is my opinion that these "wood, hay and stubble" Christians are the elect of God, but their works were obviously not what God desired from them.
As for your reference to "him that overcometh," I believe that if you are part of the elect, the Holy Spirit will empower you to overcome to the end. However, that doesn't remove the obligation on our part to put our faith in Christ.
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. I appreciate the spirit of your discussion.
Duncan
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| Re: Once Saved Always Saved [message #712 is a reply to message #710] |
Wed, 26 September 2007 04:17 |
Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky |
Senior Member |
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Hi Duncan,
I have made this little study about the hay, wood, and stubble. It may be of interest to you. I used to think this was a support for eternal security myself.
His Works Shall Be Burned
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Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 1 Cor.3:5-17
Verses 5-9 show who are the workers. Verse 9 also tells us who is the building. The workers are the ministers the building is the Church. Gods people. The foundation also is a person EVEN CHRIST, verse 11. So the building is actually made up of persons. The ministry is working to perfect the building (church). The building material is showing the quality of the persons who make up the building.
Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. Malachi 3:16-18
The jewels are the saints who have been perfected. Gold, silver, and precious stones. 1 Cor. 3:12
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Mal.4:1
The hay, wood and stubble are people in the church who have lost touch with the VINE and therefore have withered and are ready to be cut off. Either that or tares.
At the time of judgement a ministers work will be tried by fire. For every one that has been perfected he will receive a reward. However not all will be perfected. Those who fail the test are CONSUMED IN THE FIRE JUDGEMENT. For those the minister suffers loss. He spent time teaching, loving, and praying for them. He invested his time and love for them yet they failed to be overcomers. That is the loss he suffers. Verse 15
He himself shall be saved. Although not every one the minister labors for will finally make it he HIMSELF shall not be accountable for their failures. But they do receive a reward for those that are purified and made white.
He ends up by saying If any man defile the temple of God him shall God DESTROY: for the temple of God is holy WHICH TEMPLE YE ARE. VERSE 17
Therefore I conclude that those who failed God will not enter the kingdom. They shall be burned in judgement. verse 15
I know this teaching is a basis for those who believe in eternal security but closer examination reveals different.
This isnt teaching about the believers works (deeds) being judged and although they are evil they are still accepted.
It is actually a warning for the ministry to beware about HOW THEY BUILD. Their WORK meaning the PEOPLE will be judged and for those who make it there will be a reward for the minister. For those who dont make it there is loss because ministry was given but not heeded. But it shows THE ULTIMATE DESTRUCTION of the hay, wood, and stubble church members who dont take God seriously.
Only those who are HOLY shall be saved!
Follow peace with all men AND HOLINESS without which no man shall see the Lord. Heb.12:14
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