Home » Theological Doctrine » NT Theology » The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ.
| The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11779] |
Wed, 30 September 2015 01:49  |
 Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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When Jesus was manifested on earth He told His disciples who He was – the Son of God & that He would die as a sacrifice for sin, that He would rise again, go to the Father & send the Holy Spirit. These are truths of Christ for all to know. All scripture teaches us about Christ, from the promised seed, to the one that would appear as the Word made flesh. Every truth of Christ is written for us to learn of Christ.
Now besides Jesus teaching Israel of Himself He also told them specific things concerning their nation – their future & their inheritance. Then again we read that when Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father He revealed to the Apostle Paul the revelation of another group - the Body of Christ & told them, by His Holy Spirit specific things concerning them – their future & their inheritance.
Thus it becomes quite clear, I believe, when we contrast the different details, to see –
Israel`s inheritance & the Body of Christ`s inheritance. Let`s have a look at God`s word concerning this important topic.
ISRAEL – Jesus is king over Israel. `…he who is born king of the Jews.`(Matt. 2: 2)
BODY OF CHRIST – Jesus is Head of the Body.`…holding fast to the Head..(Christ)`(Col. 2: 19)
ISRAEL – Israel will rule over the nations. `Lord will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)
BODY OF CHRIST – The B/C will rule in the third heaven. `To Him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with Me on My throne…` (Rev. 3: 21)
ISRAEL – The 12 disciples will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. `Peter …said …what shall we have? ….you…will …sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)
BODY OF CHRIST – The B/C will be king priests in the third heaven. `(Christ) has made us kings & priests to His God & Father,…` (Rev. 1: 6)
ISRAEL – They do not know the times & seasons. `(Jesus said) `It is not for you to know times or seasons….`(Acts 1: 7)
BODY OF CHRIST – They do know the times & seasons. `But concerning the times & the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes…..`( 1 Thess. 5: 1 & 2)
ISRAEL – The Lord will come as a thief to Israel. `` But know this, that is the master of the house had known at what hour the thief would come, he would have watched…` (Matt. 24: 43)
BODY OF CHRIST – The Lord will not come as a thief to the B/C. `But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)
ISRAEL – Israel shall inherit the Earth. `Blessed are the meek (of Israel) for they shall inherit the earth.` (Matt. 5: 5)
BODY OF CHRIST – The B/C `s inheritance is in the third heaven. ``…to an inheritance incorruptible & undefiled & that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,…` (1 Peter 1: 7)
There are more details to contrast but this is a start. It is thus quite clear to me that God has made 2 different groups for 2 different purposes, yet all under the Lordship of Christ. Each group in different areas of God`s great kingdom ruling & reigning with Christ, who is –
`…far above all principality & power & might & dominion, & every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)
Do you know any other differences in scripture between Israel & the Body of Christ?
Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11782 is a reply to message #11779] |
Thu, 01 October 2015 12:27  |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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| Quote: |
When Jesus was manifested on earth He told His disciples who He was – the Son of God & that He would die as a sacrifice for sin, that He would rise again, go to the Father & send the Holy Spirit. These are truths of Christ for all to know. All scripture teaches us about Christ, from the promised seed, to the one that would appear as the Word made flesh. Every truth of Christ is written for us to learn of Christ.
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From this I take it that your starting premise is that the reconciliation of mankind to God was the ultimate goal revealed by God to us throughout Scripture? If so, then I believe that we are on the same page, at least on this crucial starting point.
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Now besides Jesus teaching Israel of Himself He also told them specific things concerning their nation – their future & their inheritance. Then again we read that when Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father He revealed to the Apostle Paul the revelation of another group - the Body of Christ & told them, by His Holy Spirit specific things concerning them – their future & their inheritance.
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Here is perhaps a point that begins to show a possible divergence. You seem to be making a separation here between the two entities. Not that this is totally unjustified given the fact that Israel as a nation (beginning with an individual --Abraham) has always enjoyed a special place as the 'apple of God's eye, and seems to have a future that is specifically, even if not radically, different from the rest of mankind. I think the key point to keep in mind is not the separation aspect which tends to lead us away from the idea that Jesus came to make us all one with Himself but it is the shared inheritance based upon the first premise --the reconciliation between God and man --that forms the basis for our understanding of God's plan.
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Thus it becomes quite clear, I believe, when we contrast the different details, to see –
Israel`s inheritance & the Body of Christ`s inheritance. Let`s have a look at God`s word concerning this important topic.
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By making this distinction you seem to be saying that the 'oneness' of Christ's body is not really a true oneness but a duality that consists of a relationship with Israel and a relationship with the rest of mankind. Do you not see Israel as being a part of the 'Body of Christ'?
The way I see it is that God's relationship with Israel was a device that He used in His overall plan to reveal the ultimate premise --the reconciliation of God and man. The whole idea of election was revealed to us by specifically choosing Abraham (and by extension the nation of Israel) in order for the rest of humanity to eventually see His sovereignty in the affairs of this world. This election of Grace gives us all the more reason to praise Him for evermore! God's attributes of love and justice become apparent through this device not to mention the total inability of mankind to secure for itself reconciliation.
At the very beginning (before Abraham, before Israel, before the Church) God puts this reconciliation plan into action by providing mankind with its first covering, the skins of the innocent animals sacrificed, in order for Adam and Eve to continue to have a relationship with Himself.
The whole story of Noah highlights the fact of a continual unveiling of His attributes through revelation. God forbid that we would find another special group called the Noahites to share the stage with the 'Body of Christ' just because they were used as a device to highlight an aspect of His divinity (not to mention the animal kingdom that were saved because of the Ark!).
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ISRAEL – Jesus is king over Israel. `…he who is born king of the Jews.`(Matt. 2: 2)
BODY OF CHRIST – Jesus is Head of the Body.`…holding fast to the Head..(Christ)`(Col. 2: 19)
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To continue to emphasis the device (the specific elements that God used to reveal His plan for mankind --i.e. Israel) is to de-emphasis His ultimate goal --the reconciliation of God and Man.
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ISRAEL – Israel will rule over the nations. `Lord will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)
BODY OF CHRIST – The B/C will rule in the third heaven. `To Him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with Me on My throne…` (Rev. 3: 21)
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This concept, to my mind, is a novelty. Not the concept of a restored kingdom of Israel, I believe that completely, but this notion that the Body of Christ will not rule 'over the nations'. The verse you quoted while referencing the Body of Christ (Rev 3:21--those who overcome) has a twin sister in Rev 2:26-27 that states in unequivocal terms: "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Secondly, when referring to Acts 1:6 you say it means that Israel will "rule over the nations". The verse doesn't say that. The verse only asks a question concerning restoring the kingdom to Israel. Remember that throughout Jesus' ministry on earth and even up to that point, Israel was not a sovereign nation, they were subjects of Rome.
Since we are on the subject of Israel and the nations, maybe you could explain what Jesus meant (in the context of your presentation on this subject) in Mat 21:43 --Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Who is this receiver nation? The Body of Christ? The Gentiles? Rome?)
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ISRAEL – The 12 disciples will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. `Peter …said …what shall we have? ….you…will …sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)
BODY OF CHRIST – The B/C will be king priests in the third heaven. `(Christ) has made us kings & priests to His God & Father,…` (Rev. 1: 6)
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I've already stated that I believe there will be specific tasks and promises that God has in store for Israel but I hope I've made it clear that these things aren't subservient to the original overarching premise --the reconciliation between God and man.
No one should think it strange that Abraham, David, Paul, or any influential Christian (Polycarp, Billy Graham, etc.) might be specially recognized for their contributions in the Kingdom of God. By the same token Israel's representative place as a recipient of God's Goodness and Mercy, cannot be begrudged, but to take these representations and hold them up as separate entities apart from the Body of Christ damages the premise --the reconciliation of God and man, and detracts us from the overarching purpose of His plan. It's kinda like taking the serpent on the pole and making it an idol instead of seeing it for what it was.
The Body of Christ, the Church if you will, consists of both Jews and Greeks, slaves and freemen, and forms the culmination of the original premise; nothing should detract and everything is subservient to this one great concept.
Paul (an Israelite) was a part of the Body of Christ; the early Church until Acts 10 consisted of individual members who were Israelites. The fact that the physical nation of Israel will be restored (and eventually have a specific function in the 1000 year reign of Christ) does not take away from the clear idea that the reconciliation of God and man was and is the ultimate plan of our great God!
Again, the novelty of this third-heaven-rulership escapes me.
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ISRAEL – They do not know the times & seasons. `(Jesus said) `It is not for you to know times or seasons….`(Acts 1: 7)
BODY OF CHRIST – They do know the times & seasons. `But concerning the times & the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes…..`( 1 Thess. 5: 1 & 2)
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Here again you are making an assumption that I can't see... Jesus was speaking to His Church (all of those gathered were the Body of Christ) and He was answering a specific question concerning the restoring of the nation of Israel. This was a natural question for them to ask given the fact that all of them had, up until Jesus explained more fully to the two men on the road to Emmaus, thought the event was imminent.
Peter himself right after the Day of Pentecost is still preaching on the subject: Acts 3:19-21
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ISRAEL – The Lord will come as a thief to Israel. `` But know this, that is the master of the house had known at what hour the thief would come, he would have watched…` (Matt. 24: 43)
BODY OF CHRIST – The Lord will not come as a thief to the B/C. `But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)
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Israel (the nation as a whole) is in darkness and remains so until this day but individual Israelites that formed the early Church, the Body of Christ --with believing Gentiles, walk in the light. Rom 9:24 Rom 11:25
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ISRAEL – Israel shall inherit the Earth. `Blessed are the meek (of Israel) for they shall inherit the earth.` (Matt. 5: 5)
BODY OF CHRIST – The B/C `s inheritance is in the third heaven. ``…to an inheritance incorruptible & undefiled & that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,…` (1 Peter 1: 7)
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So the sermon on the mount applies only to the nation of Israel? Where do you get that?
Rev 2:26-27 written to the Church --the Body of Christ, says that the overcomers will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
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There are more details to contrast but this is a start. It is thus quite clear to me that God has made 2 different groups for 2 different purposes, yet all under the Lordship of Christ. Each group in different areas of God`s great kingdom ruling & reigning with Christ, who is –
`…far above all principality & power & might & dominion, & every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)
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I hope I've shown that the original premise that you stated is at odds with the rest of your presentation.
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Do you know any other differences in scripture between Israel & the Body of Christ?
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If you want to see the differences and then see how they fit together I can think of no better section of Scripture than that presented by a prominent member of Israel and a prominent member of the Body of Christ --Paul, who makes a perfect case for the original premise in: Romans 9:1 through Romans 11:36
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Fri, 02 October 2015 12:12]
I want to believe!
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11783 is a reply to message #11782] |
Fri, 02 October 2015 05:20 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi William,
Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed reply. Just to clear up why I wrote this topic - it was in answer to Gary`s comment about Jesus` `one message.` I wanted to show that Jesus said more than His salvation message, He said some very specific things to Israel. I then contrasted these with what the Lord said to the Body of Christ after His ascension. Gary said -
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The thing we must realize is that when Jesus came to this earth, He came with only "one message". That is: that He was the Son of God, who came to be sacrificed for the sins of mankind. Through His ministry He showed by many signs that God was with Him and that what He was saying was true.
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Now I would like to make some comments on your notes. You thought that I believed that God` ultimate purpose was the reconciliation of mankind to Himself. No, this is only part of God`s purpose I believe. God tells us in His word –
`...having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven & which are on earth – in Him,` (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)
These `all things` are –
`For by Him (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him & for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)
And we read of Christ`s pre-eminence over `all things.`
`(God) seated Him (Christ) at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality & power & might & dominion, & every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)
Thus I read that God`s ultimate purpose is for Christ to be pre-eminent over all things. Every realm will come under the Lordship of Christ & every rulership that is placed in those realms will be under Christ`s rulership. Each group that is reconciled to God has a part to play, whether in the third heaven, the universal heavens or on the earth.
And I do believe, William, that the Body of Christ will rule `over` the earth, but from the third heaven, as promised.
Blessings, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11788 is a reply to message #11785] |
Fri, 02 October 2015 21:12 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi William,
It seems we differ there. I believe that reconciliation with God is just the means towards us having our glorious inheritance. And that the ascended, glorified, exalted Lord Jesus is the centre piece of God`s purpose as He says in Ephesians -
`...having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven & which are on earth - in Him.` (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)
BTW you said | Quote: |
the novelty of this third-heaven-rulership escapes me.
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As I was taught that our eternal destination is with the Lord on His throne in the third heaven I was surprised that you thought it a `novelty.` What were you taught or what do you believe?
Marilyn.
[Updated on: Fri, 02 October 2015 22:56]
Marilyn C
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11791 is a reply to message #11779] |
Sun, 04 October 2015 15:38 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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Hi Marilyn,
It almost sounds like your reading from two completely different Bibles here, one for Israel and one for Christians. In answer to your question the only difference between Israel and the Body of Christ is this:
Israel rejected their Messiah and turned their back on the message of Jesus. They reject Him as being the Son of God. So we find the only way into heaven is to believe Jesus is the Son of God and repent of our sins. This is to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. The Body of Christ makes up a group of believers whether Jew or Gentile who follow and obey the teachings of Jesus. The nation of Israel has no salvation outside of Jesus who is the door to the Kingdom.
| Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 29 September 2015 21:49 |
When Jesus was manifested on earth He told His disciples who He was – the Son of God & that He would die as a sacrifice for sin, that He would rise again, go to the Father & send the Holy Spirit. These are truths of Christ for all to know. All scripture teaches us about Christ, from the promised seed, to the one that would appear as the Word made flesh. Every truth of Christ is written for us to learn of Christ.
Now besides Jesus teaching Israel of Himself He also told them specific things concerning their nation – their future & their inheritance. Then again we read that when Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father He revealed to the Apostle Paul the revelation of another group - the Body of Christ & told them, by His Holy Spirit specific things concerning them – their future & their inheritance.
Thus it becomes quite clear, I believe, when we contrast the different details, to see –
Israel`s inheritance & the Body of Christ`s inheritance. Let`s have a look at God`s word concerning this important topic.
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With the statements you made above I want to look at what you are saying here:
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ISRAEL – Jesus is king over Israel. `…he who is born king of the Jews.`(Matt. 2: 2)
BODY OF CHRIST – Jesus is Head of the Body.`…holding fast to the Head..(Christ)`(Col. 2: 19)
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The Jews who believe in Jesus are part of the body of Christ there is no distinction between the two. So when you say the body of Christ this includes all the New Testament Jewish believers including all of the Apostles.
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ISRAEL – Israel will rule over the nations. `Lord will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)
BODY OF CHRIST – The B/C will rule in the third heaven. `To Him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with Me on My throne…` (Rev. 3: 21)
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Where do you get the scripture that says: Israel will rule over the Nations? His disciples are only asking a question here. Jesus does not directly answer their question about any kingdom but He replies with what will take place in the body of Christ. Why? because they are the body of Christ at that point in time.
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
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ISRAEL – The 12 disciples will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. `Peter …said …what shall we have? ….you…will …sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)
BODY OF CHRIST – The B/C will be king priests in the third heaven. `(Christ) has made us kings & priests to His God & Father,…` (Rev. 1: 6)
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I think its better to quote a scripture in its context to see what is being said:
Matthew 19:26-30
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
Jesus is talking about those who have left all to follow Him. Now look at what He is saying;
"that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. "
Nowhere do we see the statement you will rule all nations but it says you will "judge the nations'. It looks like at least in this verse quoted your adding the phrase they will "rule all nations".
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ISRAEL – They do not know the times & seasons. `(Jesus said) `It is not for you to know times or seasons….`(Acts 1: 7)
BODY OF CHRIST – They do know the times & seasons. `But concerning the times & the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes…..`( 1 Thess. 5: 1 & 2)
ISRAEL – The Lord will come as a thief to Israel. `` But know this, that is the master of the house had known at what hour the thief would come, he would have watched…` (Matt. 24: 43)
BODY OF CHRIST – The Lord will not come as a thief to the B/C. `But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)
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Both of these statements come from the same scripture, your dividing them up and making them say two different things.
For two thousand years the times and seasons that you speak of always had Christians believing it would be in their generation. The truth is the Lord will return as a thief in the night. When the thief comes no one knows the hour, we can only assume through certain events that it is soon. Beside remember Jesus is speaking to His disciples in these two partial verses you quoted in both cases they are His disciples.
Your basically contradicting your self with these statements. In Matthew 24 again He is speaking to His disciples. Its always His disciples He is speaking to and I don't see where Jesus is making a distinction. You can take any scripture and make it say what you want. The scripture does not say that the Lord is coming as a thief to Israel. You appear to be making two different messages here. Jesus is speaking to those who can hear and those who can see, many cannot see that He is talking to those who are His disciples. The Nation of Israel rejected their messiah as they do up til this day.
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ISRAEL – Israel shall inherit the Earth. `Blessed are the meek (of Israel) for they shall inherit the earth.` (Matt. 5: 5)
BODY OF CHRIST – The B/C `s inheritance is in the third heaven. ``…to an inheritance incorruptible & undefiled & that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,…` (1 Peter 1: 7)
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This sounds like Israel will be living on the earth and the saints of God will be up in heaven. There will come a time when we will all be one in Christ there is no where which indicates there are two separate groups in eternity. The Jews who accept their Messiah will be with Jesus and the body of Christ in Heaven.
You say blessed is the meek of Israel but the meek of Israel are those who believe in Him.
Also your quoting Peter in this verse, but again Peter was always known as the Apostle to the Jews. This scripture your saying is for the body of Christ, we find Peter is ministering to Jews who believe.
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There are more details to contrast but this is a start. It is thus quite clear to me that God has made 2 different groups for 2 different purposes, yet all under the Lordship of Christ. Each group in different areas of God`s great kingdom ruling & reigning with Christ, who is –
`…far above all principality & power & might & dominion, & every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)
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This is not clear at all because in eternity we will all be one as the Father and Son is one. This sounds like your having two complete different worlds in eternity.
I was thinking, when I mentioned in another post, what Jesus said concerning casting the fig tree and mountains into the sea, you guys said: "God doesn't want us rearranging the earth", but I was thinking, it sounds like your over there splitting up the universe, between Jews and the body of Christ. "They have their Kingdom on Earth and the Body is off in the third heavens."
I'm getting the impression your not telling the whole story here in what your sharing but giving small details and trying to make the scriptures agree with what your saying.
The Bible teaches let everything be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses and I don't think we can take small portions of scripture and make them say something they are not saying. If it says something, it is one thing, but I cannot see changing words to make it say something it isn't.
The scriptures are of no private interpretation. Peter is known as the Apostle to the Jews in church history and Paul has been said to be the Apostle to the Gentiles but either way, both messages are for all who come to Christ and turn from their sin. They do not have another message for the Jews who refuse what Christ came to the earth to do, and that is "Sacrificing Himself for mankind.
Gary
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11792 is a reply to message #11791] |
Sun, 04 October 2015 21:27 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
So can you please tell me who are the nations on the earth that walk in the light of the New Jerusalem,
`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light,....` (Rev. 21: 24)
& who is in the New Jerusalem,
`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband....Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, & He will dwell with them, & they shall be Hi people, & God Himself will be with them & be their God.` (Rev. 21: 2 & 3)
& who is sitting on Christ`s throne in the third heaven, `far above all.....`
`To him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)
`far above all principality & power & might & dominion, & every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)
Thank you, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11793 is a reply to message #11792] |
Sun, 04 October 2015 23:00 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Not to answer for Gary or William, but my understanding of scripture is that the 'New Jerusalem' will be a literal city(THE City of God) manifest on earth where Jerusalem is now and God will be there as well Jesus and all believers, both Jew and Gentile.(yep, even those that never heard of Jesus and the Gospel <before> their deaths, such as Abraham, Noah, Jacob, David, Jeremiah...ect.) There won't be a temple inside as there was in the original city because God will be there, The Temple. (I am also aware that many believe that the New Jerusalem isn't a literal city made by God but rather symbolic of what The Body of Christ will become, I think one who taught this was Witness Lee, the Chinese preacher from the last century.)
The third heaven final destination for Christians is, I'm assuming, what your uncle must have taught. I realize many groups have various ideas that they have 'taken from scripture' and I'm just in a different group than you. All I cam say for absolute certainty is that where ever Jesus and my Heavenly Father will be is where I will be....forever and ever, beholding the Glory and majesty of Him who loved me enough to die that I could live, breaking down the wall of separation that my sins had built, restoring me to fellowship with Him. I may not be the most theologically correct 'tool in the shed', but praise God, I'm in the shed! <where ever the shed is located> 
Marilyn, reread the final few chapters of Revelation, do you think God rebuilds the new heavens and earth and establishes the New Jerusalem for some people and has another group in some third heaven....what does He do, split His time visiting between us? When Satan has been defeated and tossed in the pit of Hell for eternity, when the 1,000 years of the millennial reign is complete, who will be those whom He will be Lord of Lords and King of Kings? Jews? OT Jews? NT Christians who aren't Jewish? Isn't a Jewish person whose comes to faith in Christ today part of The Body of Christ? Will they be separated from the rest of believers (Gentile) and left on earth while we're taken to a third heaven? Thoughts/questions to mediate upon...if this is what you've been taught.
[Updated on: Mon, 05 October 2015 16:23]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11794 is a reply to message #11793] |
Mon, 05 October 2015 06:42 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi james,
I always think it is such a privilege to discuss God`s word & share together, as the Holy Spirit continues to lead us all into the fullness of truth.
Concerning the New Jerusalem, had you ever thought that for the nations to walk in its light, that it would have to be away from the earth so that day & night would come over the earth as it continues to revolve. All the nations would walk by its light, but in the New Jerusalem we are told there is no night. Wonderful details by the Lord to us.
`And the Nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, & the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there.) (Rev. 21: 24 & 25)
Also, we know that God is omnipresent, & thus is everywhere through out His great kingdom, from the third heaven, through out the universe & on the earth.
Remembering also that the earth is His footstool,& as such is not the seat of His glorious power.
`Heaven is my throne, & earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)
Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11795 is a reply to message #11792] |
Mon, 05 October 2015 08:24 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Sun, 04 October 2015 17:27 |
Hi Gary,
So can you please tell me who are the nations on the earth that walk in the light of the New Jerusalem,
`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light,....` (Rev. 21: 24)
& who is in the New Jerusalem,
`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband....Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, & He will dwell with them, & they shall be Hi people, & God Himself will be with them & be their God.` (Rev. 21: 2 & 3)
& who is sitting on Christ`s throne in the third heaven, `far above all.....`
`To him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)
`far above all principality & power & might & dominion, & every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)
Thank you, Marilyn.
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Hi Marilyn,
Yes I will answer this question. You asked:
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So can you please tell me who are the nations on the earth that walk in the light of the New Jerusalem,
`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light,....`
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It should be very obvious, I highlighted the answer, "those who are "saved" shall walk in the light".
Marilyn wrote:
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Hi James,
I always think it is such a privilege to discuss God`s word & share together, as the Holy Spirit continues to lead us all into the fullness of truth.
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It's a great blessing to discuss God's Word as you say.
I think its very interesting that God has given us very small glimpses in future events.
But to be quite honest with you I have my hands full just working out my salvation each day. But when it comes to being overly concerned with what is going to happen 1000+ years from now I just leave that in the Lords hands.
In the final analysis looking so far in the future should never be a major concern for Christians because there is always the possibility of God doing something different then what we think He is going to do. I mean by that, God gives us a small look at what will happen, but we don't really see or can know the whole picture. So it seems like a weariness to the soul to be constantly trying to figure out future events. Over here we have people setting around and trying to guess who the Antichrist is, or when America is going to fall under judgement etc..
For the last 41 years I have heard enough predictions concerning the future that have never come to pass. Even the most recent event concerning the blood moons, people were writing books, holding seminars, talking on the radio, but several blood moons came over a years time and nothing happened. This is all we've heard for several years all the blood moon predictions that were going to take place. Now they'll have to wait 18 years to start the new blood moon predictions because that is the next time it will be in our area.
If so many people are wrong with just a few localized events I cannot see anyone being 100% correct when it comes to a 1000+ years from now with knowing every little detail of what will take place.
I have a basic idea what will come to pass and that is sufficient in itself. Why do I think this, Because He Lives, I know He holds the Future. And no matter what takes place good or bad I know that I'm a partaker of the inheritance of the saints in light. Not because I've done anything but because Jesus paid the price.
For now I have my hands full with just going through each day, and while some things are interesting to talk about a huge percent of the information is only speculation. I don't think knowing about every detail concerning a 1000+ years from now will keep a man out of heaven. I do think its important not to add to the scriptures and make them say something they do not say because the Word says in Revelations:
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Revelation 22:18
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
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Involving the future state its too easy to add things to make it say something that God has not said, so men have to fill in the gaps. There are too many things we don't know and what little He has shown us concerning the future, gives us a general idea.
"Because He Lives, I can face tomorrow and all fear is gone".
Isaiah 55:6
Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
Gary
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11796 is a reply to message #11794] |
Mon, 05 October 2015 13:37 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Mon, 05 October 2015 01:42 |
Hi james,
I always think it is such a privilege to discuss God`s word & share together, as the Holy Spirit continues to lead us all into the fullness of truth.
Yes, it is a privilege to freely discuss God's Word...and seek to rightly divide/understand it
Concerning the New Jerusalem, had you ever thought that for the nations to walk in its light, that it would have to be away from the earth so that day & night would come over the earth as it continues to revolve. All the nations would walk by its light, but in the New Jerusalem we are told there is no night. Wonderful details by the Lord to us.
Speaking of details given by God, the verse before the one you quote below gives pretty clear understanding as to the light and it's origin. Revelation 21:23
`And the Nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, & the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there.) (Rev. 21: 24 & 25)
Also, we know that God is omnipresent, & thus is everywhere through out His great kingdom, from the third heaven, through out the universe & on the earth.
Remembering also that the earth is His footstool,& as such is not the seat of His glorious power.
`Heaven is my throne, & earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)
Marilyn.
I suppose we could go back and forth on different views of scripture until Jesus returns, but (and I don't want to sound religious/super spiritual) as my daily reading had me in Psalms 90:12 today one verse said to teach me to number my days so I might apply my heart to wisdom; I'm not too confident that we'll come to a meeting of the minds on some of these subjects and it might be better to just wait and see what The Lord has for us and where it is...like I said earlier, as long as I'm with Him I don't care where it is...In His perfect wisdom I know and am confident that it will be beyond anything we know or understand now.
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[Updated on: Mon, 05 October 2015 13:55]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11797 is a reply to message #11796] |
Mon, 05 October 2015 21:21 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary & James,
God could have just given us John 3: 16 & then all discussion of His other purposes would have been veiled. However God has written His heart, what His motive is & what He has planned in relation to His precious Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes as people we can go on & on & on endlessly about unimportant details, yet God has said in His word,
`Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15)
If you do not wish to respond, then that is fine with me, for people are reading & they can make their own minds. So please don`t feel you have to chat or discuss if that is not your desire.
Blessings, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11798 is a reply to message #11797] |
Tue, 06 October 2015 07:03 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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To those who are interested,
God has made three groups & told us to be respectful of them.
`Give no offence, either to the Jews (Israel) or the Gentiles (nations) or to the Ekklesia (the Body of Christ). ` (1 Cor. 10: 32)
God didn`t have to make these groups, but in His purpose to have all realms come under the Lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ, He has made specific groups with specific callings.
The Nations.
These are people through out history, who have never heard of Jesus, but have lived according to their conscience. They will be judged at the end of time by their works.
` And the dead were judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books.` (Rev. 20: 12)
These are the nations that are on the new earth.
` And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light.` (Rev. 21: 24)
Israel
Those who come through the millennium will rule over the nations on the earth. While those who believed in faith for the city to come will populate the New Jerusalem.
The Body of Christ.
This group is most blessed, but not for anything they have done. They have been promised to be like Christ, in character & in glorified body. This body can go through dimensions & is made for the higher heavens. They will rule & reign with Christ from that glorious realm & be involved in all of God`s creative acts in the eternal ages.
`Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.` (1 Cor. 2: 9)
I personally believe it is of the utmost importance as to what we believe. it is not like in Aussie lingo `She`ll be right mate.` For God has written His purposes in His word in relation to our precious Lord & it is for us to read, discuss, & be -
` diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. `(1 Tim. 2: 15)
Thus I believe it is for each one of us to work with each other in this process.
Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11806 is a reply to message #11798] |
Wed, 07 October 2015 11:13 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 06 October 2015 02:03 |
To those who are interested,
God has made three groups & told us to be respectful of them.
`Give no offence, either to the Jews (Israel) or the Gentiles (nations) or to the Ekklesia (the Body of Christ). ` (1 Cor. 10: 32)
God didn`t have to make these groups, but in His purpose to have all realms come under the Lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ, He has made specific groups with specific callings.
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You need to read the context of 1 Cor. 10:32. The context shows that while there are indeed three groups that have radically different religious practices we (the redeemed) ought not to give any of them reason to take offence. Why? "For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." 1 Cor 10:17
Our wonderful liberty in Christ can at times offend the Jews, it can offend the conscience of the Gentiles because of their ignorance (we shouldn't eat their sacrificed meat when they make it clear that they are confused about the nature of idols) and we shouldn't offend weak brethren in the Body of Christ whose conscience isn't yet enlightened.
Paul finishes up the chapter by saying: "[1Co 10:32-33 KJV] 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33 Even as I please all [men] in all [things], not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved.
How is it that you want to take that verse out of context and try to say that God "MADE" these three groups?
If He did "make" these groups He certainly spends a lot of time (in fact the whole of Scripture) showing that His purpose (which is encapsulated in John 3:16) was the reconciliation of fallen man to Himself. So yeah, I'll gladly spend the rest of my life on John 3:16 knowing that His eternal purpose, revealed in that verse, is supported by literally the rest of His revelation.
[Rom 10:11-12 KJV] 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Jesus 'hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;' Eph 2:14 In fact read the context of Eph 2 and you'll see that Paul contrasts this very idea that you are promoting (three groups) with what Jesus did:
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" Eph 2:15-16
Paul clears up any misunderstanding concerning this divided monarchy you're promoting by declaring that we are no more strangers and foreigners but fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God; Eph 2:18-22
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11823 is a reply to message #11806] |
Fri, 23 October 2015 09:55 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| william wrote on Wed, 07 October 2015 07:13 |
| Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 06 October 2015 02:03 |
To those who are interested,
God has made three groups & told us to be respectful of them.
`Give no offence, either to the Jews (Israel) or the Gentiles (nations) or to the Ekklesia (the Body of Christ). ` (1 Cor. 10: 32)
God didn`t have to make these groups, but in His purpose to have all realms come under the Lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ, He has made specific groups with specific callings.
|
You need to read the context of 1 Cor. 10:32. The context shows that while there are indeed three groups that have radically different religious practices we (the redeemed) ought not to give any of them reason to take offence. Why? "For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." 1 Cor 10:17
Our wonderful liberty in Christ can at times offend the Jews, it can offend the conscience of the Gentiles because of their ignorance (we shouldn't eat their sacrificed meat when they make it clear that they are confused about the nature of idols) and we shouldn't offend weak brethren in the Body of Christ whose conscience isn't yet enlightened.
Paul finishes up the chapter by saying: "[1Co 10:32-33 KJV] 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33 Even as I please all [men] in all [things], not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved.
How is it that you want to take that verse out of context and try to say that God "MADE" these three groups?
If He did "make" these groups He certainly spends a lot of time (in fact the whole of Scripture) showing that His purpose (which is encapsulated in John 3:16) was the reconciliation of fallen man to Himself. So yeah, I'll gladly spend the rest of my life on John 3:16 knowing that His eternal purpose, revealed in that verse, is supported by literally the rest of His revelation.
[Rom 10:11-12 KJV] 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Jesus 'hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;' Eph 2:14 In fact read the context of Eph 2 and you'll see that Paul contrasts this very idea that you are promoting (three groups) with what Jesus did:
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" Eph 2:15-16
Paul clears up any misunderstanding concerning this divided monarchy you're promoting by declaring that we are no more strangers and foreigners but fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God; Eph 2:18-22
Blessings,
William
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William,
While I don't believe there is three groups and I don't see anything about having certain respect for them, I think just in general, we know that Christians have respect naturally for all men.
But I was thinking if someone wanted to pick a bone clean, there are two groups mentioned in scripture, the goats and the sheep, the wheat and the tares, which is the same crowd. The tares and the goats versus the sheep and the wheat or those who follow good or follow evil.
But with that said, all these groups are part of the whole story being told. The Bible does not try to isolate three different groups anywhere in the New Testament. I doubt anyone could prove or find this thinking without pulling a few words out of a scripture and creating a new doctrine.
Its hard for people who were taught something wrong to admit that hey, "maybe that guy who taught me was wrong". But its something that even we had to face. Everyone has to take a look at the Bible to see if these things are true, just like the Bereans did.
Paul had to tell several Apostles that they were wrong in their doctrine, and those men actually walked with Jesus for three years, the difference is they admitted they were wrong and went on with their lives. The Scriptures are on no private interpretation.
Gary
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11832 is a reply to message #11823] |
Fri, 30 October 2015 19:30 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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As I reread this thread today I realize the key to understanding where Marilyn is coming from is found in this quote...
"As I was taught that our eternal destination is with the Lord on His throne in the third heaven I was surprised that you thought it a 'novelty."
She was taught this and more than likely she'll hold to it until the end. She seems a bit offended if we don't go along with what she believes and stops posting for a period of time...but truth be told(and we're supposed to be of that group that does tell the truth) most of us have acted in the same manner one time or another.
Speaking from experience I never could understand how others couldn't (or wouldn't) receive the teachings of Hobart Freeman no matter how many cassette tapes and books I gave them. Divine healing? Turn the other cheek? Separation from the world and it's ways? Live by faith? Forget about it, I was under the influence of a bunch of nut jobs and had gone off the deep end. So I understand and will just accept her as is and respect her convictions.(though not always agreeing with her.)
So Marilyn, don't be offended if others don't 'see' things as you've been taught...because... you don't 'see' things as we've been taught and it doesn't offend us.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11856 is a reply to message #11832] |
Thu, 12 November 2015 11:34 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Quote: |
title=james wrote on Fri, 30 October 2015 15:30]As I reread this thread today I realize the key to understanding where Marilyn is coming from is found in this quote...
"As I was taught that our eternal destination is with the Lord on His throne in the third heaven I was surprised that you thought it a 'novelty."
She was taught this and more than likely she'll hold to it until the end. She seems a bit offended if we don't go along with what she believes and stops posting for a period of time...but truth be told(and we're supposed to be of that group that does tell the truth) most of us have acted in the same manner one time or another. [\quote]
For one thing we don't really know where Marilyn is coming from so we don't know exactly what she believes. I mean you can read posts on other web sites and get a clue. But if anybody cannot show from scripture with out pulling it out of context what they believe then everybody should be able to admit their wrong or they were at least taught wrong.
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Speaking from experience I never could understand how others couldn't (or wouldn't) receive the teachings of Hobart Freeman no matter how many cassette tapes and books I gave them.
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Has anything changed for you?, When you tell people what Jesus Christ says concerning salvation do they willingly accept what you believe no matter how many tracts you can give them.
Probably Not!
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Divine healing? Turn the other cheek? Separation from the world and it's ways? Live by faith? Forget about it, I was under the influence of a bunch of nut jobs and had gone off the deep end. So I understand and will just accept her as is and respect her convictions.(though not always agreeing with her.)
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This sounds out of character for you James, calling people names. Whether you believe what they taught or not, their still the children of the living God and will go to Heaven.
Jesus shed His Blood for all these men and women that you think are "nut jobs".
The problem is, if this experience shows anything it would be the that the devil is more cunning then most would give him credit for. For thousands of years now he has been working over time to lead God's people astray. Do you think your safe now from deception or other forms of legalism?
The truth is, that there is legalism and deception in every church its just that it takes on a different form. A settled in delusion that people can live with and accept as normal.
You said, live by faith forget about it, but the Bible says the just shall live by faith, and when Jesus returns He will be looking for faith. I can give dozens of scriptures that show Jesus is the one who went on and on concerning peoples faith, for instance, Jesus said: Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you?
We are to be separate from this old world and we are to turn the other cheek and Jesus is the God who heals.
Calling the children of God names I don't see this in the Bible anywhere though.
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So Marilyn, don't be offended if others don't 'see' things as you've been taught...because... you don't 'see' things as we've been taught and it doesn't offend us.
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I hope everyone becomes offended if they are not willing to look at the Bible and take a serious look at what it does say. The Pharisees where offended and refused to listen to what Jesus was trying to tell them.
In the last days: And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.”
Gary
[Updated on: Thu, 12 November 2015 11:36]
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11857 is a reply to message #11856] |
Thu, 12 November 2015 13:25 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Gary, Gary, Gary...
Please have a cup of coffee before responding and ask The Holy Spirit for an understanding heart to think the best about your brothers and sisters. Every thing I was saying was an example of what others thought of me/us back in those days....if I presented scripture concerning walking by faith, or trusting God totally, or turn the other cheek, it was 'thought' that I was under the influence of a teacher who was a 'nut job' and their response was as I've heard somewhere, "forget about it"...not that I'm forgetting about God's Word.....should I have to explain stuff this simple, no.....wake up.
Love you brother 
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The difference between Israel & the Body of Christ. [message #11858 is a reply to message #11857] |
Fri, 13 November 2015 10:09 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| james wrote on Thu, 12 November 2015 08:25 |
Gary, Gary, Gary...
Please have a cup of coffee before responding and ask The Holy Spirit for an understanding heart to think the best about your brothers and sisters. Every thing I was saying was an example of what others thought of me/us back in those days....if I presented scripture concerning walking by faith, or trusting God totally, or turn the other cheek, it was 'thought' that I was under the influence of a teacher who was a 'nut job' and their response was as I've heard somewhere, "forget about it"...not that I'm forgetting about God's Word.....should I have to explain stuff this simple, no.....wake up.
Love you brother
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But if anybody cannot show from scripture with out pulling it out of context what they believe then everybody should be able to admit their wrong or they were at least taught wrong.
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Guilty!
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Please have a cup of coffee before responding
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Double Guilty!
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.should I have to explain stuff this simple,
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With me possibly! 
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it was 'thought' that I was
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Now I understand!
But still guilty as charged!
Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Anyway I'm going to get a cup of coffee and maybe eat some crow for breakfast.
Gary 
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