Home » Theological Doctrine » Christian Ethics » Insurance as required by law
| Insurance as required by law [message #6106] |
Thu, 01 October 2009 14:33  |
 james
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Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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In reading Joe Brenneman's blog today,(pastor of current FA) the concern about government required insurance came up.( health insurance, in this case). I believe in obeying God in all things, and that includes being subject to the laws of the land...as long as they don't cause me to disobey God. This raises an issue with many christians who want to trust God for protection, safety, healing, life, employment, ect. Most insurances are optional, at this point, and we can chose not to purchase them. wheather life insurance, health insurance, disability insurance, workers comp insurance(although sometimes small business owners and self employed folks have to carry it for employees as well as liability, when required by law). But in many states auto insurance is a requirement, at least liability insurance. So what does a christian do? Don't own an automobile anymore and use public transportation? Disobey the law and drive without it and 'hope' you don't get pulled over and checked? Or obey the law and just not put your trust in the insurance as your protection?
I'm not setting myself up as the perfect example here, but I would like to share what, I believe, The Holy Spirit lead me to do, after prayer for wisdom and direction. When the state of Alabama pasted this law(I think around mid 1990's) I purchased auto insurance from the cheapest source(for me Geico)and just what was required by law, liability in X amount of coverage. Now that covers the obedience to the law of the land; so I continue to trust The Lord for protection as always, trusting in His promises and covering myself with The Blood of Jesus. He has protected me and I have never had an accident since putting my trust in Him in 1981, by His grace. But should he see fit to allow me be tried in that area, I wouldn't use the insurance.
I think that's what I would do should the government start requiring all citizens to purchase health insurance, I would do what's required to comply with the law, but not use it. Just continue to trust The Lord as my healer and health. We have to make ethical decisions daily, there's always conflicts between the principles Jesus taught for believers to follow, and the way the world functions and what the majority does. Will it cause those around us to roll their eyes and call us nuts? Probably,... who cares?
Any comments? thoughts? testimonies? Other views or opinions?
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #6109 is a reply to message #6106] |
Sat, 03 October 2009 16:36  |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
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I would agree with you James, just because the government would require us to have health insurance doesn't mean we have to use it. Jesus has been so faithful to me over the years and I would see no reason to stop trusting Him just because we would have health insurance. If anything I would think it would cause christians to start looking to Jesus more, as the health insurance may not be everything they think it will be. It would be just one more step closer to Anti-Christ being revealed. How? I can't say for sure, but whenever people get freedoms taken away, ie choosing not to have insurance, there is more control from the government and more ability for people to see what people do. There is talk of having all ones medicals records be recorded on their drivers license or identification cards. Even now there is alot of information on drivers licenses. This is not a time to put trust in anything government, but rather to look at the promises of the Bible and see that Jesus has provided everything we need to live. There is healing, deliverance, freedom from fear and oppression, promises for God to supply our daily bread, health, and anything else you can think of.
God has not given us the spirit of fear. Listen to people at work, how afraid many are of contacting the swine flu. All we hear promoted is about this world wide plague of the swine flu, but we are promised that no plague shall come high our dwelling. Read Ps. 91 to see all the tremendous promises God gives us. A thousand shall fall at our side and ten thousand at our right hand, but it shall not come nigh us. Thank you, Jesus!
The government health plan cannot promise us that. No health plan can promise us that. We serve a mighty God who loves us and has provided for us by the blood of Jesus, so isn't it past time for many of us to stop listening to the lies of Satan through the government, talk shows, TV shows, newspapers, magazines, co-workers, friends, and look to the unfailing promises we have been given in God's word and start believing them! It is one step at a time, one day at a time and sometimes it seems like one minute at a time, but we can do it because God has promised us in His word that He that begun a good work in us will complete it.
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #6120 is a reply to message #6109] |
Mon, 12 October 2009 16:22 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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Speaking of swine flu,(or H1N1 for those who don't want to cause a decline in the sales of pork) Saturday I was involved with about 9-10 people who were discussing topics ranging from religion to football, and on to healthcare and sickness. Somehow they got onto the subject of the flu and flu shots, they were talking about how most of them got sick after taking the shot. I honestly don't know how the medical system works in many ways, so I asked how the government carried out the giving of swine flu shots and who paid for them. Opps,my bad! They weren't talking about 'swine flu' shots, they were talking about just regular flu shots. Anyway, come to find out, everyone in the room except me had gone out and paid $24.95 for 'flu' shots to make themselves sick with flu like symptoms. And the poor kids (all of them were under 30) were in various degrees of fear concerning wheather or not the 'swine' flu shots would be able to protect them from the swine flu.
And of course I was an outright idiot, taking my life into my own hands.(Yeah, I got the 'are you kidding me' look when I said no, I'm putting my life in Jesus' hands...big difference)
I started asking around as to what each person did for a living or what they were studying in school, there were two who were becoming pharmacist, one pediatrics nurse, a professor, one in the seminary to be a pastor, one 'undeclared' student, one with a business degree and a restaurant manager. All professing christians, with all that knowledge they'd aquired in school, yet even though they were ever learning and seeking knowledge, they had no clue as to the truth. The very Bible they carry to church, each time they attend, has within it's pages the written wisdom of God and His healthcare plan...It doesn't make you sick, it doesn't cost you any money, when trusting in Him there's no FEAR. YET, it's hidden from them due to unbelief.
How thankful I am...why He opened my eyes and gave me faith to believe? I don't know! I'm just thankful He did!
I pray for the unbelieving church, walking around with a form of godliness and religion, but denying God's power to change their lives.
MERCY JESUS...
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #6667 is a reply to message #6120] |
Fri, 15 January 2010 23:38 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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I saw today that Congress (or some congressmen) were planning to allow for a conscientious objector exemption on the healthcare insurance law. It would apply to those who's religious convictions would be violated by forcing them to purchase heath insurance. (the example given were the Amish)
I don't know what stage they're at in getting this into the final law, but it sure would be a financial blessing for a lot of people who would have been force to purchase the insurance and not use it, or face the penalty.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #7117 is a reply to message #6667] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 15:55 |
David Coleman
Messages: 319
Registered: October 2009 |
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just to give a little update. President Obama just announced that in order to run the bill through complete analysis, the plan will not start until the year 2014.
That which James says is better though. It is only fair to allow religious people to follow their convictions. We are blessed to have a sovereign God who answers our prayers. even where it says that we pray for leaders that we may live a peacable and Godly life.
faith-- forsake all I trust him. Baal-- believe apostacy all lost. bible-- believe in bible life eternal.
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #8901 is a reply to message #7117] |
Thu, 29 March 2012 15:20 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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Health Care Law...
In case any one's interested, the United States Supreme Court began this week to hear arguments and considering the legality of the 'Obama' health care law that is set to go into full effect in about 20 months. I think we should be interested because it will effect us all, should the bill stand as is. One may ask, "what is it to me? I will continuing to trust The Lord for my health"; yes, so will I...BUT, if it goes into effect those who refuse to comply will be disobeying the law. I've said before that I would handle it the same way I do the law in Alabama that requires all drivers to carry auto insurance, I buy it but do not use it...I continue to trust The Lord for protection.
But wouldn't it be a blessing financially if we weren't required to buy heath care insurance? So I'm praying for the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn it and thought I'd let everyone reading know that's what is going on right now and if you are lead, to be praying concerning this as well. They plan to have a decision by June.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #9014 is a reply to message #8901] |
Thu, 28 June 2012 19:24 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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Just in case anyone is interested (and this will affect almost all of us), the United States Supreme Court voted 5 to 4 today to uphold the Affordable Care Act, more commonly known as the Healthcare Bill or ObamaCare.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10073 is a reply to message #9014] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 20:52 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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O.K. folks, the deadline is drawing nearer for the new required healthcare coverage (health insurance). The Obama administration last week added an extra six weeks for Americans to obtain coverage before incurring a penalty. The new online Web site, https://www.HealthCare.gov has been having major technical problems and, though they say differently, they're extending the time til March 31, 2014 to buy some 'goodwill' with the public. btw: I was able to access the site today for the first time...
Anyone got any comments or thoughts as to how they plan to deal with this latest 'requirement' of the American people by the American government. Oh, in case anyone is thinking of just paying the penalty, it's 1% of your annual income or $95 per person, which ever is higher. It will increase every year, in 2016 it is 2.5% of yearly income or $695 per person.
Another opportunity to obey The Word of God and submit to those in authority, right?
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10074 is a reply to message #10073] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 23:01 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi James,
In Australia, for a couple, our health insurance is about $5000 a year. That is private health insurance involving medical, hospital, Natural Therapists, etc but we still pay excess on doctors, ambulances etc.
Trevor, my husband says `Why do people think they don`t have to pay for it?` He`s talking generally & including those in Australia too.
Just thought you may be interested in what others have to do.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10077 is a reply to message #10074] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 06:19 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi James,
After reading all the posts I thought I`d add this extra bit. Even though Trevor & I pay health insurance we do not see it conflicting with our belief in God to supply all our needs. We pray regularly for our health (probably daily) as I have chronic fatigue & Trevor has rheumatoid arthritis.
We don`t accept that we have to succumb to these but look to the Lord for His strength & ability each day. We work with the Lord & realise that each hindrance is but a trial & learn with the Lord`s guidance how to manage our lives, strength,& time & appreciate what we can do. We are also appreciative of God`s gifts through others in different health areas but always pray & acknowledge that He is the Great Physician over us & others are but His hands as we put ourselves in His care.
This also applies to all areas of our lives, not just health care. God works through others as we place every detail of our lives in His care. We do not have a pain free, trial free life but are take through these to know Him more & let go of our own strength & our own abilities & let His life work through us.
[Updated on: Tue, 29 October 2013 08:00]
Marilyn C
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10081 is a reply to message #10074] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 14:13 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 17:01 |
Trevor, my husband says `Why do people think they don`t have to pay for it?` He`s talking generally & including those in Australia too.
Just thought you may be interested in what others have to do.
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I understand where Trevor is coming from with that question(speaking of people in general wanting things without paying for them). But there are Christians who trust Jesus as their healer, and don't put their trust in the hands of man(such as insurance agents/policies, doctors/medicine, ect.) To be forced to purchase health insurance by law when a person doesn't use medical science isn't a 'getting or wanting to get something for free', because those people will not be going to the doctors/hospitals anyway...their trust is in The Lord<by HIS stripes we ARE healed>
The same issue comes into play concerning auto insurance, we were required to purchase auto insurance about 15 years ago. As a Christian believing we should obey the government unless what they require is in disobedience to what God has shown in His Word, we are to obey them and submit to their laws. For auto insurance I just purchase it in obedience to the law, but continue to trust The Lord for protection...not the insurance policy. I guess this will be the same position I'll take concerning health insurance...although, I see the first year 'penalty' is called a 'fee', so maybe I'll just pay the 'fee'. Still haven't decided how to deal with it, except to know God will give wisdom as the time draws nearer.
Marilyn, don't feel condemned or judged concerning this post, I'm trying to share in a short time frame what would take much longer to share in full...the bottom line? Relay to Trevor that we/I aren't a bunch of people wanting to free-load off the government with free health care...we actually don't want what they are offering, even if it was free. I/we trust Jesus as our healer/health...and no, that doesn't mean that we never go throught trials and problems with health, it means that 'in' and 'through' whatever we encounter, our faith and trust is in Christ and what HE did at Calvary in delivering us from the curse by His victory over death; in what He did to reconcil us unto God restored what sin had stolen. What He did to save us, He did to heal us, to deliver us, to protect us, to provide for us, ect. And don't think I/we think I'm/we're special above other believers, The Cross and all He purchased there is for everyone who will believe...just as that same Cross is to be taken up daily as we follow Him, Jesus...
And don't think I/we believe you or Trevor aren't Christians because you don't believe as I/we do concerning divine healing/health. But God's Word DOES reveal and teach Divine healing...throughout.
Just a quick addition: I don't speak for everyone who is a forum member when I say "I/we" concerning believing and living divine healing...nor am I the perfect example of unfailing faith in Jesus as my healer. I have waivered in my commentment to Christ and have used medical science a couple of times over the last 30 plus years(regretfully)...I just don't want to project myself as something I'm not...
[Updated on: Tue, 29 October 2013 14:34]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10084 is a reply to message #10081] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 18:59 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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Marilyn, Thanks for all of your info and input, so far.
I respect your attitude when disagreeing or presenting another perspective.
You are one who does not try to degrade or make things personal which makes you a class act. I just wanted to encourage you about that. 
Also, HEF taught divine healing without ANY help from this world. It was a broad spectrum from nutrition to aids for hearing, seeing, band aids, supplements, driving with glasses, etc. The list was endless.
I personally have not seen anyone walk the faith healing walk that we did years ago. Many have changed their views on what is liberty in Jesus and what is legalism in many areas, let alone healing.
Like always, people can talk the talk, but walking the walk in healing, love, and the crucified life are two different stories when loving the brethren and ministering to a lost world.
I am sure you and your husband are walking your walk with Jesus alone and not letting others get you discouraged or try to make you feel defeated. Good grief, that is just Satan in your ear! Lol
I look forward to more of your commentary and opinions.
.
[Updated on: Tue, 29 October 2013 20:12]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10085 is a reply to message #10084] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 20:22 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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I don't know how much it accomplished, but while reading on the HealthCare.gov website I was directed to a survey/comment section and answered the questions they asked. At the end there was a opportunity to make comments, I commented on the 'religious exemption' limitations as to only those religious groups 'approved' by the government would qualify. I asked the question concerning religious freedom in America and the freedom to worship/serve/obey God as our individual convictions dictated. I worded it very respectfully and didn't appeal to 'my rights' as an American citizen.(I remembered what happened to Paul) LOL
I'm expecting the President or one of his top officals to get back to me on that very soon.<grin> Hey! Maybe they'll listen...But I'm not holding my breath.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10087 is a reply to message #10086] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 22:38 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Thank you Gillyann for the kind words & I appreciate your comments also. I appreciate the feast also & will write something there soon.
Yes Gary, I too appreciate what William said. Thanks for the link. I must remember not to give him pureed (?)broccoli & carrots. (lol)
Concerning divine healing. I was brought up believing in divine healing & always have believed & operated accordingly. The Lord is the great Physician & it is `by His stipes that we are healed,` as we all know. I have been healed many, many times immediately & also over time.
Now I believe the scripture tell us `how,` we are healed - by His stripes ...we are healed. The healing comes & it is because of what the Lord suffered & His holy, worthy life that is imparted to us. However the scripture does not say `when,` we are healed. That part is in God`s hands as He knows best. Healing is not His main priority for us but `to be made like Christ.` Otherwise we would see people who never look old, & never die as they would be continually being healed & restored in their fallen state. That is not God`s intention as I said.
Thus said I daily look to the Lord for His strength as that especially is my great weakness. I know that the gradual healing that has come to me over the years has kept me close to the Lord, appreciated other`s sickness, weaknesses, focussed me on eternal things. These I would not have had developed, by God within me, with the strength I once had & me at the drivers wheel.
It is the heart motivation as William said & respecting where the giftings & skills come from that different professions have, yet not to rely on them as the source.
Going through sickness etc is a tool of God to learn to eventually let go of everything (including healing) & trust God for our whole lives. That is a life time process as the final `letting go,` is our last breath.
I think you get what I mean.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10101 is a reply to message #10096] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 22:47 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| Gary wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 13:55 |
By the way James I found out if your a veteran you don't have to buy the insurance or pay a penalty. I received a letter from the VA explaining this benefit for veterans. 
Gary
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Yes, I knew that, I have a friend who's a VietNam vet and he has government provided healthcare...however good that is. 
I knew I shouldn't have dodged the draft... 
I have been researching the different exemptions and the way the penalty will be enforced because I'm aready getting questions pertaining to how it'll effect peoples tax returns. I thought I had a couple more months before having to become involved with that issue, I see the congress is already 'grilling' those who messed up on the launch of the website. O well! No time like the present to jump into the fray.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10115 is a reply to message #10112] |
Thu, 31 October 2013 11:47 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
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| Gary wrote on Thu, 31 October 2013 03:24 |
| james wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 16:47 |
| Gary wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 13:55 |
By the way James I found out if your a veteran you don't have to buy the insurance or pay a penalty. I received a letter from the VA explaining this benefit for veterans.
Gary
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Yes, I knew that, I have a friend who's a VietNam vet and he has government provided healthcare...however good that is.
I knew I shouldn't have dodged the draft...
I have been researching the different exemptions and the way the penalty will be enforced because I'm aready getting questions pertaining to how it'll effect peoples tax returns. I thought I had a couple more months before having to become involved with that issue, I see the congress is already 'grilling' those who messed up on the launch of the website. O well! No time like the present to jump into the fray.
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James,
To be honest here I think that it is possible to take a scripture and make it say whatever someone wants it to say by weaving together other scriptures to prove a point.
For instance we were taught it was sin to take medicine. But I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where this scripture exists. In fact I see the Apostle Paul telling Timothy the Pastor to take some alcohol (wine) for his stomach problems.
Doesn't it seem strange that Paul would encourage Timothy to take a remedy in light of what we were taught?
What I am saying is I don't think if a person chooses to take medicine that it is a sin. I believe Jesus heals but He is not going to be mad if we try to take care of ourselves and use band aids. It about got to that extreme in our groups.
I think some theology we had was wrong. You cannot force your faith on little children who are helpless for instance. Who is to say a person is really in faith if a child is involved.
I don't care what others think of this either. But with all that in mind I am believing God for a healing without medicines and I do take an occasional supplement and try to take care of myself. But I choose to do this for me. There are a number of things taught at FA that I do not see in the scriptures so for now I am striving to sort out what the Bible says and what the Lord"s Will is concerning all things.
Just wanted to clarify this whole discussion. If the law requires insurance then it is not a sin to buy the insurance and even use it if that is what someone desires to do. Even though I am like you I hate it that we are being forced to buy it, I don't think that is right for the government to force this on people.
Gary
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I think that the whole idea of not using insurance, medicine, glasses, crutches, etc., etc., etc., was derived first from the OT examples of Israel's propensity to not trust the Lord, especially when they were threatened by their enemies, and then later in the NT where Jesus taught the benefits of trusting God completely with our life in this world.
There are of course an example or two (I haven't counted) in the OT where the trust/dependence was not related to their physical enemies (Philistines, Amalikites, etc.,) but to specific things like healing (Asa).
Anyway, my point is that there is a very distinct principle that trusting God completely for our lives (which are not our own! 1Cor 6:19-20) is clearly something that the Lord desires for us. How that is worked out specifically in each of us as individuals is not as clearly defined, which is, I believe, where we made our mistake. As someone once said we are all little catholics in our hearts and like to have a list of dos and don'ts to keep us in line!
It would be wonderful if we could have a clearly delineated line that separated the concept of trusting in God and trusting in something other than God. To do that we would have to know a person's heart, which is a tough thing to do!
Good thoughts though, maybe we can hash it out a bit more?
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10116 is a reply to message #10087] |
Thu, 31 October 2013 18:55 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 17:38 |
Now I believe the scripture tell us `how,` we are healed - by His stripes ...we are healed.I believe the more literal word for “stripes” is “wounds.” Jesus was not only whipped, but he also had a crown of thorns and his beard torn out. It is by the shedding of Jesus blood and having faith in what He purchased for us whereby we can believe God for our healing. The healing comes & it is because of what the Lord suffered & His holy, worthy life that is imparted to us. However the scripture does not say `when,` we are healed. That part is in God`s hands as He knows best. Healing is not His main priority for us but `to be made like Christ.` .` It certainly is a priority for us to be conformed to the image of Christ, but it is just as important for us to look at and walk in all He has purchased for us with His blood. And a part of this is healing. Why would someone want to experience God’s love and not also want to walk in His healing, which to me is a manifestation of His love to me. Both are ours, as well as many other blessings God gives us, including trials and persecutions. We want to experience His peace and joy and grace and guidance, so why not His healing? Otherwise we would see people who never look old, & never die as they would be continually being healed & restored in their fallen state.This is not biblical because of the fall of man, all but a very few will experience aging and death. The bible clearly states there is a time to be born and a time to die. Just because some(maybe most) don’t get healed does not change God’s word where Healing is clearly promised. I don’t know why some get the manifestation to their healing and some don’t, but I do know God is faithful to heal and deliver. That is not God`s intention as I said.
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10118 is a reply to message #10116] |
Thu, 31 October 2013 21:02 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Sage,
Thank you for your more detailed comments & I appreciated them. As you brought out about our Lord & what He did for us, & I agree as you said it is.....
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`...important for us to look at and walk in all He has purchased for us with His blood. And a part of this is healing. Why would someone want to experience God’s love and not also want to walk in His healing, which to me is a manifestation of His love to me.
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So true, Sage. God bless. Marilyn.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10156 is a reply to message #10115] |
Sat, 02 November 2013 13:57 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Quote: |
Good thoughts though, maybe we can hash it out a bit more?
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William,
Don't want to destroy this thread of James on the insurance issue, but since this has taken a different road I want to share one thing here.
Concerning divine healing.
I believe that with all the major diseases in the world that men will never be able to find a cure for all of them because they are part of the curse of the law found in Deuteronomy.
While doctors have made some advances in medical science like if someone in a bad car wreck they can patch them up and get them back on the road of life to live a half way decent life after their wreck. This is just one example among many.
But being able to find cures for all the diseases and ailments that plague mankind this will never happen.
I saw a recent clip were they hooked up a robotic arm to a persons brain, and she was able to control the arm and I think they said the person felt like they had feeling in this robotic arm they could tell if something was hard or soft when they went to pick it up. The person had been paralyzed for years. They have tested this robotic stuff on a number of people now, and want to eventually make replacement limbs.
Please tell me if I am thinking wrong on this. But from what the scriptures teach on the curse of the law, is why I am thinking this. Jesus delivered us from the curse of the law.
Now about this issue of never growing old if you believe in total divine healing or receive healing during your life. I think growing old is different from whether a person is walking in health.
I think it is possible to grow old (which we all experience), and to walk in total health. When it is our time to go then the Lord just calls us home. This is not saying we won't have trials and tests that come our way but Jesus will take care of us.
But those in the world will never be able to remove the curse from mankind, which consists of disease and sickness.
With all this said, I don't think we can lord it over people to trust God and receive healing. Jesus told them about healing and healed many but never did He force someone to trust Him in this area. This is why I think making people think that they have committed some sin because they took a pill is totally the wrong approach.
I hope I have made this plain not implying anything here to anyone but just the approach the whole movement went through in being told how to trust God.
This is where I have changed some of my views if a person gets their teeth cleaned, wears glasses, or takes an aspirin, I just don't feel anyone can tell them it is sin or any of us has committed some sin because we have done this. It becomes a little bit of twisting what Jesus was trying to teach people in the New Testament.
I am thinking when everyone rushed up to him and said, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. It was that religious attitude that manifested. Or how about the time the disciples said, do we call down fire from heaven.
To grow in faith we have to first off desire it, then secondly learn by trial and error as we seek the Lord for our lives. As a group I think peer pressure in a movement cause many to become legalistic. I think every movement on the earth has had this problem surface in their groups.
Like I said, if I am misinterpreting something here I appreciate anyone letting me know. I think God showed us this and allowed us to experience what we experienced for a reason. I have tried to weigh all of this out and even though I don't think HEF's theology was flawless I do think we were shown what the scriptures teach about walking with God and what pleases the Father.
As for the scripture "anything that is not of faith is sin". If a person is not at peace with themselves and do things not in faith but do things because of what others think, because of peer pressure then this is what is meant that it is sin. They are doing it because of peer pressure and not because they do not think it is wrong or right depending on the situation.
I think there is more to that scripture then what meets the eye.
I hope this is understandable, and makes sense in what I am trying to convey.
Gary
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10157 is a reply to message #10156] |
Sat, 02 November 2013 15:18 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| Gary wrote on Sat, 02 November 2013 07:57 |
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Good thoughts though, maybe we can hash it out a bit more?
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William,
Don't want to destroy this thread of James on the insurance issue, but since this has taken a different road I want to share one thing here.
I hope this is understandable, and makes sense in what I am trying to convey.
Gary
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Hash away brothers...these threads are indestructible.
As to the thought about growing old and dying, we do have examples recorded in The Word of men who when time to die just gracefully passed. But there certainly have been many godly people pass from sickness and disease as well. Not arguing, just making an observation. One thing for sure, insurance won't insure against death, we'll all face it should The Lord tarry.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10161 is a reply to message #10156] |
Sat, 02 November 2013 23:43 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
Your comments were very good & thought provoking. I see someone can die as their strength has gone & not of disease. But still to die is under the curse in Genesis 3: 14 - 19 wouldn`t you agree? Also as death is the last enemy that Christ will destroy, at the end of the Millennium, it is still with us in time. It is not healthy to die but we all will if the Lord tarries as you said.
Just working through this also. Interesting.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10168 is a reply to message #10167] |
Sun, 03 November 2013 05:38 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Mark & Gary,
That is a great Ps. 103 as you said to look to the Lord for His renewing. As we know as Christians walking this life, we cannot do it except the Spirit of God is within us renewing our mind, emotions & our strength till He calls us `home.` (as Gary said.)
Just thinking out thoughts here, no great theological position.
In Gen. 3: 17 - 19 the Lord is reminding Adam & Eve that they are of the dust of the earth & to `dust you shall return. ` So it was God`s enabling that kept them in that wonderful place in Eden. And God did not want them to keep partaking of His eternal enabling / qualities (?)otherwise they would live forever `knowing good & evil,` but not being able to overcome it - Satan, their selfish tendencies???
I think we are way off James` thread, but as he doesn`t mind.....
Marilyn C
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10171 is a reply to message #10168] |
Sun, 03 November 2013 12:05 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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One quick thought here may share more later.
Everyday I confess certain promises over me and my wife.
The Lord will renew my strength like the eagles, I have the mind of Christ, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, etc, etc. I am healed by His stripes, His Blood prevails in my life, etc, etc.
It constantly reminds me what we are in Christ because His word says this about us, all believers.
Thanks Mark for that scripture reference I could not remember its exact location.
The Lord's prayer and Psalm 91 are two other areas that are good to pray and confess, what the word says about us is part of our inheritance in Christ.
Gary
BTW Marilyn all of our clocks were turned back an hour here, do they change the times in Australia?
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10174 is a reply to message #10156] |
Sun, 03 November 2013 21:09 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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Yeah, I think I understand what you are saying, Gary... I think we all have pretty much come to the place where we can let others walk their own walk before God:
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. [Rom 14:4-5 KJV]
Concerning advances in science... you are right in that no one is going to be able to escape the curse no matter how many advances take place. Having said that, I do think that humans have now advanced (in technology) way beyond what I ever thought possible 30 years ago!
I really don't think that advancements in these areas are necessarily wrong per se but when our trust in those things overshadows our trust in God's provision, then we have a problem.
The problem, or maybe I should call it the danger, is when we try to disengage ourselves from the necessity of depending on God.
As one reads through the OT it is shocking to watch the progression that Israel makes in their attempts to adopt the ways of the world in order to insulate themselves from trials.
I've been reading 1 Samuel lately and here is a summary of what I've noticed:
1. During the period of the Judges there is almost a roll-coaster ride respecting their enemies. They sin, God judges, they repent, God blesses and then the cycle repeats itself. Then, beginning with 1 Samuel, it seems as if they've finally gotten together and figured out that their main problem is their enemy (Philistines, etc.) instead of their sin.
2. They are admittedly in a pretty low spiritual state in the time of Eli the Priest. 1Sam 2:12f gives the context.
3. God sends Eli a prophet who warns of the danger. 1Sam 2:27f
4. God was already at work preparing Samuel to be the deliverer, which, by the way, this is not unlike our present day situation! 1Sam 3.
5. 1Sam 4 opens with a now familiar theme --the enemy is arrayed against them and the children of Israel are defeated.
6. Eureka! They get an inspiration! They know what is missing! They need the presence of God to defeat the enemy, so they call for the Ark of the covenant to be brought into the battle. 1Sam 4:3 ...after all, they knew their history, God had oftentimes fought against the enemy on their behalf so they knew that He would do it for them. There was only one problem that they missed --repentance is the prerequisite for deliverance! Well, this proved fatal to their plans even though it looked like it might work. When the Ark of God's presence showed up there was a mighty shout and it almost scared the Philistines off of the battle field (the Philistines knew a little about the glory of God's presence!) 1Sam 4:7f
7. The Philistines rallied and the rest of the story proved to be downfall of Israel.
8. Ichabod -- the Glory of God's presence departs. 1Sam 4:21-22
9. 1Sam 5 shows that God can take care of Himself without the help of anyone else!
10. 1Sam 6 The Philistines learn a thing or two about the Glory of God's presence!
11. Twenty years pass and now Samuel is established as God's prophet and gives Israel the proper road-map for victory over their enemies. 1Sam 7:3-6
12. 1Sam 7:10 With the proper road-map Israel rediscovers the Greatness of God's presence when He SUPERNATURALLY delivers them from the Philistines!
13. 1Sam 8 is where I begin to see what was happening... the situation with Samuel's sons was beginning to look a lot like what happened with Eli's sons before -- 1Sam 8:3. After all of those years of going through that cycle of departing from the Lord, trials with their enemies, repentance and then finally deliverance, they missed a valuable lesson --fellowship with God was the end goal. I think that the people just wanted relief from the enemy (their trials!) without going around that same mountain over and over again... they look around at the nations and they see that what made them successful was the fact that they all had kings and these kings effectively dealt with the trials that they regularly faced.
(If we examine our modern-day situation we can see a lot of parallels... for instance sometimes our enemy is sickness and disease, sometimes it is financial... but whatever the enemy happens to be, we tend to do all we can to insulate ourselves from our trials. Instead of asking for a king, we seek to make sure we have a good doctor handy or maybe a good insurance policy, or a stellar retirement plan. These things seem to work for the world so why shouldn't we ask for our own king? Now in Israel's case all of these trials were designed to re-focus their attention back to the real problem --the lack of God's presence in their midst which was caused by their sin. God had ALWAYS shown Himself strong on their behalf when their hearts were toward Him. That's not to say they didn't have trials, they did, but when their hearts were toward Him, they experienced victory --most of the time a supernatural victory! That is the tough part... trusting God alone when faced with trouble. We would much rather devise a plan that insulated us from the necessity of trusting in God when faced with a serious trial. I think this is human nature. I think that there is something within each of us that gravitates toward self-preservation. I think this accounts for most of the advancements in the medical field, it drives us to spend an inordinate amount of time seeking ways to keep ourselves healthy and free from the threat of financial destitution. I think this is also the reason for much of our religious organization... really what we want is a church that can survive even without the manifested presence of God in our midst, so what do we do? We structure our systems so that no matter what happens our systems will survive.)*
14. God gives them a king (while warning them about the consequences!) 1Sam 10:17f
15. God even blesses them in their decision to have a king. See 1Sam 11:1f (This is not unlike what we see Him doing even today when our modern-day plans are sometimes blessed... limited to be sure, sometimes lacking the supernatural element, but the element of blessing can be discerned.)
16. As you continue to read 1Samuel you'll see that God hasn't altogether forsaken His people but you do see that they sadly are missing that intimate relationship that all of their trials we designed to foster.
Blessings,
William
* I'm using terms like "we" and "us" in a general sense... hopefully we do allow our trials to teach us the necessity of trusting in Him fully, in all things, instead of causing us to devise methods to insulate ourselves from the trials of our faith!
[Updated on: Sun, 03 November 2013 21:12]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10179 is a reply to message #10171] |
Sun, 03 November 2013 23:43 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
Yes we do have time changes here in Australia, it is called `Daylight Saving.` We started it a few weeks back. it doesn`t effect me much but for the farmers it can make the day long as they feel the need to keep working while it is still light.
William, I appreciated your comments on Samuel with your contemporary thoughts.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10299 is a reply to message #10073] |
Thu, 14 November 2013 15:39 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| james wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 14:52 |
O.K. folks, the deadline is drawing nearer for the new required healthcare coverage (health insurance). The Obama administration last week added an extra six weeks for Americans to obtain coverage before incurring a penalty. The new online Web site, https://www.HealthCare.gov has been having major technical problems and, though they say differently, they're extending the time til March 31, 2014 to buy some 'goodwill' with the public. btw: I was able to access the site today for the first time...
Anyone got any comments or thoughts as to how they plan to deal with this latest 'requirement' of the American people by the American government. Oh, in case anyone is thinking of just paying the penalty, it's 1% of your annual income or $95 per person, which ever is higher. It will increase every year, in 2016 it is 2.5% of yearly income or $695 per person.
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I just spent two days in a tax seminar updating my annual continuing education credits and a good bit of time was spent on 'Affordable HealthCare', if anyone has any questions concerning it I'll be glad to help...if I can,lol...I did get a 'big' book with 'all' the answers for my money.lol Just PM me and I'll help if I can...If I can't I'll refer you the government website...<grin>
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10303 is a reply to message #10081] |
Thu, 14 November 2013 22:25 |
james
Messages: 2140
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| james wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 08:13 |
Just a quick addition: I don't speak for everyone who is a forum member when I say "I/we" concerning believing and living divine healing...
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This thread is about "Insurance as required by law",specifically the Affordable Care Act and thoughts concerning how it will impact Christians who don't want to trust in insurance and discussing possible solutions. No one is promoting medicines or supplements nor arguing against them. This isn't Faith Assembly, and it isn't all or nothing here...
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10304 is a reply to message #10303] |
Fri, 15 November 2013 02:20 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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Oh, I am sorry, James.
I commented on both topics and on all of the subjects because they have been mentioned in this thread.
Also, the word was, that I used in my comment, is past tense. I think the subjects and topics were being discussed calmly and in love. I, too, don't think anything was being promoted.
We have learned a lot on OO over the years. I feel I have learned much about the difference between grace and legalism ***since*** FA. Again, my reference was past tense. I am sorry I was not very clear on using the word was in my previous post.
Many attitudes at FA ***were*** childish. We have all come a long way. I remember a young mother being looked at in the nursery with chagrin because her baby had a band aid on! True story!
Thanks for getting the thread back on track! I admire your patience! I am still learning about communicating in cyber space.
BTW, I take Gummy Bear vitamins!
[Updated on: Fri, 15 November 2013 02:43]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Insurance as required by law [message #10305 is a reply to message #10304] |
Fri, 15 November 2013 03:56 |
Mark L
Messages: 855
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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BTW, I take Gummy Bear vitamins!
OK like Popeye sayz "I can't stands no more". That one puts me over the edge. (busily writing GWB's name down as one who has apostatized)!!!!!
I've been wanting to say for the last couple of weeks so here is a good spot. I haven't had a lot of time lately. So when I get here (O/O) and start reading I want to comment but there is 15 replies and I simply can't keep up. So I just don't say anything. I am more or less keeping up on what is being said though.
[Updated on: Fri, 15 November 2013 03:57]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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