So does anybody here attend a bible church?
Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 13:51 So does anybody here attend a bible church? Ninety per cent of the people do not give out personal information. Someone might steal their identity and take a vacation to Paris. Seriously, the choices are very slim where I live, its a rural area. We visited a lot of places but there is so much church ritual, etc. In several cases I thought I would just be quiet as a church mouse and just overlook everything, but so much was going on how can anyone avoid it. In one place I thought there was hope until the guy started to explain away the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He distorted much of what the Bible was saying on this teaching and others as well. I noticed a trend while visiting charismatic churches, they always know when a guest walks in the door and you immediately become a target for prayer and the laying on of hands. They try everything even calling you out on the spot in front of everyone to come forward because they think you must need prayer or why else would you show up at their church. In another church I visited someone in the pulpit said, If you love Jesus you'll be coming up here to get prayed for. I call that coercion. In another church a woman got up and preached against TV, then she concluded the message with she did not see anything wrong if someone wanted to watch it. Hmmmm! It never occurred to some of these churches that your a Christian just looking for a place to worship. Along with that, I have a struggle with women in the pulpit. I don't know if its because of how I was taught or that I cannot find it in the Bible. But it is a struggle here. I do think its possible to get into the system and then become such a part of it, that you cannot see the truth anymore because man's doctrines are very logical and religious sounding. Anyway that's my story. Wanted to give some examples of what I ran into. With all the problems we had at FA I still think we were following the best example of a New Testament church. Most of the teachings we heard separated us from the world and the system. Sometimes I wrestle with: is this good or is it a hindrance in trying to relate to other Christians. Gary
Gary wrote on Sun, 11 May 2014 09:36 Most of the teachings we heard separated us from the world and the system. Sometimes I wrestle with: is this good or is it a hindrance in trying to relate to other Christians. I think it was(and can continue to be if we let it) a hindrance, other Christians were never good enough to enjoy fellowship with. We were afraid we'd get contaminated, same with interaction with the 'world'. Not saying everyone, these are my 'opinions'...mostly of myself. A lot of what we were taught was wonderful, and I'm grateful for it, but for whatever reasons the fruit of going forth and making disciples of all nations and peoples was very unproductive, such a true passion and love for the lost and our fellow man was lacking, from what I've observed. Just because someone hasn't been baptized in Jesus' Name or speaks in tongues DOES NOT mean they aren't born-again and love Jesus. Matthew 28:19-20 is the commandment of JESUS and while I have been baptized in Jesus' Name the fact that a fellow believer in Christ was baptized in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost doesn't nullify their salvation. And it shouldn't cause a Christian to question their church's position or validity as a true church of Jesus Christs'...
james wrote on Sun, 11 May 2014 14:40 Gary wrote on Sun, 11 May 2014 09:36 Most of the teachings we heard separated us from the world and the system. Sometimes I wrestle with: is this good or is it a hindrance in trying to relate to other Christians. I think it was(and can continue to be if we let it) a hindrance, other Christians were never good enough to enjoy fellowship with. We were afraid we'd get contaminated, same with interaction with the 'world'. Not saying everyone, these are my 'opinions'...mostly of myself. A lot of what we were taught was wonderful, and I'm grateful for it, but for whatever reasons the fruit of going forth and making disciples of all nations and peoples was very unproductive, such a true passion and love for the lost and our fellow man was lacking, from what I've observed. Just because someone hasn't been baptized in Jesus' Name or speaks in tongues DOES NOT mean they aren't born-again and love Jesus. Matthew 28:19-20 is the commandment of JESUS and while I have been baptized in Jesus' Name the fact that a fellow believer in Christ was baptized in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost doesn't nullify their salvation. And it shouldn't cause a Christian to question their church's position or validity as a true church of Jesus Christs'... I don't know of your experience and how you treated others, but that is not every ones situation. We know a lot of Christians who deny part of God's Word, and never once assumed they were not saved, only God knows who are His sheep. The problem is the system has an influence over people that keeps them from going deeper in the Lord. I have yet to see a denominational setting that mirrors the New Testament church. How important is the Baptism?, eventually when God moves by His Spirit it will be the anointing that breaks the yoke, men's creeds will help no one in that hour. They present another Jesus who cannot heal today, miracles are done away with, and was only a part of bygone days. Sure no one is saying these people are not born again, but distorted, watered down teaching will hinder them from going any deeper. The Bible message is more then just John 3:16 and then go into all the world. It depends also what you mean by fellowship with them. We spent sometime with a group in our area, when we came together as a group for fellowship everything was centered around sports, motorcycles, and vacations, food, etc.. People wanted to avoid subjects concerning the Bible. Maybe down south their all on fire and seeking the Lord, but up here the crowd is locked into what their group considers important, and its generally not centered on Christ. Gary
Gary wrote on Sun, 11 May 2014 17:45 I have yet to see a denominational setting that mirrors the New Testament church. Quote: The Bible message is more then just John 3:16 and then go into all the world. Hi Gary, These two quotes stood out to me so I wanted to add two cents. When you say that you've never seen a denominational setting that mirrors the NT church, I agree with what you've said... but think about it, have you ever seen ANY church situation that mirrored the NT church? Faith Assembly was great in that it had both good worship and good teaching, but 'mirroring the NT church'? I see the difference between the denominations (which, btw, I'm not defending!) and current charismatic assemblies (also not defending!) only differing by a few degrees. It's like that book that James mentioned awhile back (actually I don't remember if it was James... someone mentioned it...) called Pagan Christianity. That book, and that website I shared in the Church Government thread, highlighted the origins of the modern day church service. Sing a few joyful songs, maybe then a few more worshipful songs, take up an offering (FA didn't do this step -- we had a few gifts from the members during this time) then listen to teaching or preaching (from a special group of 'office-holders') and finally the benediction. We've been doing this routine forever in both denominational and charismatic circles and woe to anyone who deviates from the program. Not that there is any problem with some sort of order but when the order gets set in stone, then it becomes a problem. What I'm getting around to in a round-about way, is this: What if what we've been looking for is just another iteration of the same old same old. We think that if we only had those 'offices'(five-fold) filled in our midst, we'd finally mirror the NT church. What if this isn't the case? What if we've made it too complicated what with the stringent requirements concerning the call of a bona fide apostle and prophet? What if these ministries aren't offices at all? What if they are just simple ministry gifts that are no different from those gifts of tongues and/or interpretation of tongues, or even the simple gift of prophecy? If these gifts are functional in nature, like all of the other gifts, then it certainly would explain why the 'offices' seem to be missing. What if the overseer/elder/presbytery is simply someone who had a desire to take up the responsibility of watching over the flock. 1Tim 3:1 coupled with Mark 9:35 seems to point to this as being the 'model'. What if the apostleship is simply those who, because of their gifts, are sent out from the local assembly to other areas? What if the prophets are really just those who have the gift of prophecy? I know this sounds radical when compared to the way we've always thought of these things, but the more I delve into the NT, the simplicity of this 'model' makes more and more sense. Sons, daughters, handmaids, all coming together filled with the Holy Spirit (whose specific function is to guide us... each and every one of us) allowing Him to lead us... it just makes sense. Look at the apostleship of Paul. Here he was, assembling with other prophets and teachers, and suddenly the Holy Spirit (probably through one of those prophets) says to those gathered --separate Barnabas and Saul for the work I've called them to... apparently neither Barnabas or Paul were 'apostles' until they were 'sent out' (which is what the term apostle means). Their being set apart doesn't appear to be set apart to some 'office' but they were set apart to be 'sent'. The apostleship was a designation of the type of gift they were called to function in... i.e. 'sent' to other places. I don't want to beat a dead horse to death, but I do think it would be worthwhile to re-examine our thinking on these topics by checking out the bible references to some of these terms. Concerning your second quote: Quote: The Bible message is more then just John 3:16 and then go into all the world. I'm trying to figure out what you mean. Taking the theology of John 3:16 to the world and teaching them about that central message is what I thought was the bible message. Obviously there is a lot more in the bible than that particular verse but the centrality of that message was what I understood our calling to be. I'm sure I'm missing your meaning so don't think I'm challenging you, I'm just interested in understanding your thinking here! Blessings, William
Hi William, Just popping in on your conversation with Gary to say I really appreciated what you wrote. I so agree with your thoughts concerning denominations - man`s model yet God has worked through it for a time as we all know having been apart of it. We work in a network situation of relationships in our area here. Starting as it were from grass root relationships. Some get together in couples, groups & encourage each other & share what God is saying in their lives & what we see happening else where. Prayer & share & fellowship. It is a `loose` network in that we relate to others in denominations & non Christians but we appreciate the `deeper relationships` that God has formed over the years. Now concerning John 3: 16 we know that is key, it tells us God`s heart & the means by which we have eternal life. However God has more to share with us. He desires us to know His Son more & thus the rest of scripture unfolds telling us of His character & His purposes for the Body of Christ, Israel & the nations. Good discussion.
Hi William, you wrote: Quote: Concerning your second quote: Quote: The Bible message is more then just John 3:16 and then go into all the world. I'm trying to figure out what you mean. Taking the theology of John 3:16 to the world and teaching them about that central message is what I thought was the bible message. Obviously there is a lot more in the bible than that particular verse but the centrality of that message was what I understood our calling to be. I'm sure I'm missing your meaning so don't think I'm challenging you, I'm just interested in understanding your thinking here! What I meant on this is that at some churches, this is the only message. "Going into the world and preaching their brand of denominationalism while straying from the gospel." This is interwoven into every message in the church. I have been in churches that you would know what the minister was going to say before he even opened his mouth. Hope that's understandable. I have noticed a trend in every church that has a pet peeve doctrine in that local assembly and that is all they dwell on avoiding the rest of the Bible. Some groups its John 3:16 and nothing else. Thinking about this I could probably say we fell into the same situation, where the "faith message" was dealt with constantly and it was woven into every message some where along the lines. Even though we were taught so much faith was the central theme if you know what I mean. I agree with what you are saying though, the New Testament is a pattern but it could be in this end time God could do something totally different in our midst. I have thought about this that if God decides to do something different would we (I), be able and willing to accept it if it was different then what we have preconceived in out minds. Personally I know a lot of different people in the system who have definite fruit and I know will be in heaven. When I was talking about the system I mean the whole ritualistic religious event that takes place every week. You enter the church and are handed a church bulletin that tells you everything that will take place during that mornings service. Yes, the book you mentioned went into much detail about all the areas the system church has been swayed from the gospel. I have tried at times to share with people in the system but it seems as if they are blind to what the Bible is saying. Part of this I always thought was because they lacked the Baptism of the Spirit. But this did not mean I thought less of them. Many churches labor in warning the flock about this experience. I recently heard on Christian radio an ad that was warning about people going around saying things about the Bible but they did not have a degree qualifying them to understand it. It was a nice ad. LOl Quote: When you say that you've never seen a denominational setting that mirrors the NT church, I agree with what you've said... but think about it, have you ever seen ANY church situation that mirrored the NT church? Faith Assembly was great in that it had both good worship and good teaching, but 'mirroring the NT church'? I see the difference between the denominations (which, btw, I'm not defending!) and current charismatic assemblies (also not defending!) only differing by a few degrees. Yes this is true maybe we were not a mirror image. I guess we were unique in a lot of different areas. Also when I speak of our group I am always leaning towards the beginning of the church when things started out different it only changed later on and became what it was. I remember a lot of outreach and evangelism that took place and people were coming out of the system wanting more of God and sinners were turning to Christ. Quote: What I'm getting around to in a round-about way, is this: What if what we've been looking for is just another iteration of the same old same old. We think that if we only had those 'offices'(five-fold) filled in our midst, we'd finally mirror the NT church. What if this isn't the case? What if we've made it too complicated what with the stringent requirements concerning the call of a bona fide apostle and prophet? What if these ministries aren't offices at all? What if they are just simple ministry gifts that are no different from those gifts of tongues and/or interpretation of tongues, or even the simple gift of prophecy? If these gifts are functional in nature, like all of the other gifts, then it certainly would explain why the 'offices' seem to be missing. What if the overseer/elder/presbytery is simply someone who had a desire to take up the responsibility of watching over the flock. 1Tim 3:1 coupled with Mark 9:35 seems to point to this as being the 'model'. What if the apostleship is simply those who, because of their gifts, are sent out from the local assembly to other areas? What if the prophets are really just those who have the gift of prophecy? I know this sounds radical when compared to the way we've always thought of these things, but the more I delve into the NT, the simplicity of this 'model' makes more and more sense. Sons, daughters, handmaids, all coming together filled with the Holy Spirit (whose specific function is to guide us... each and every one of us) allowing Him to lead us... it just makes sense. Look at the apostleship of Paul. Here he was, assembling with other prophets and teachers, and suddenly the Holy Spirit (probably through one of those prophets) says to those gathered --separate Barnabas and Saul for the work I've called them to... apparently neither Barnabas or Paul were 'apostles' until they were 'sent out' (which is what the term apostle means). Their being set apart doesn't appear to be set apart to some 'office' but they were set apart to be 'sent'. The apostleship was a designation of the type of gift they were called to function in... i.e. 'sent' to other places. I don't want to beat a dead horse to death, but I do think it would be worthwhile to re-examine our thinking on these topics by checking out the bible references to some of these terms. I know what you are saying while we see what took place back then there is nothing indicating that this is the only accepted way. Also I don't know if we fully understand the culture of that day and time but we tend to see everything in the light of the western mindset. I do know that the system as you indicated as well is not the answer. Maybe the church system in their own way is trying to preserve what they think is right, but without the Baptism they are very limited in knowing what God wants. Its almost like their hindering people from reaching their full potential in the Lord. This is good that you brought this up and it is worth considering. What will happen in the future may not be laid out the way we think it should be. I am open to a move of God doing a new thing, but I want it to be the Lord and nothing else. I do believe we were given a good foundation and letting the Lord finish the building is more important, then us trying to make something work, if you know what I mean. I like what one brother said over in NZ, "were all a work in progress". Gary
Waking up this morning I was thinking about this whole situation concerning the dead religious system of men. Just because anyone points out how dead and futile the system is does not mean that they do not love the people, or believe some are not genuine in their own way and are truly saved. But with this thinking does not mean we have to join in and start justifying their doctrines, joining hands and start singing Kum Ba Ya with them, as though nothing is happening. Its not a lack of love to point out the truth. Two things can happen when you join in with the system, One you look the other way and justify what is going on or secondly, you share the truth with them, hoping some will receive the Word of the Lord, at that point their true character comes out on how they perceive God's Word. I have found in my own experience that many in the system have been so grounded in their doctrine that they refuse to look at the Word. By saying this does not mean I or anyone who says it does not love the people or want their best. We fellowshipped with a group of people for a period of time, (in a local Bible study), who reject the Word concerning the Baptism of the Spirit, healing, and other Bible truths. I was in hopes they would at some point open up to receiving more of God. I found most are comfortable in where they stand and see no need to go deeper or even want to know if there's more. I finally separated myself and knew it was time to move on. God is much bigger then what any of us can even realize. I feel at times we have barely scratched the surface of knowing the Lord and what He is capable of in our behalf. This whole concept of there being a God that has created and rules this universe is mind boggling. Just the word "God" tells of a being that is far superior then what we will ever be able to conceive. Sometimes I try to think of God as being there for all of eternity, my mind cannot even grasp what it must be like. The Eternal one, the Ancient of Days, there's a bit of fearfulness that comes to mind at the thought of One so Grand and Majestic. As created beings its presumption to think we can set up a church and do it our way. Isn't this what Israel did in the past? They did things their way. At the end of time I don't think we should let things that God has revealed slip through our hands like grains of sand. As for the system that rejects God's Word I cannot bow the knee and justify what they are doing. But my prayer is that many will come to their senses and receive all that the Lord has for them. Jesus made it quite clear when He said of some: Seeing they see but cannot see, and hearing they hear but cannot hear. We have to be willing to see and hear and then obey, I'm not stating this is something easy but it is part of working out our salvation with fear and trembling. That is, choosing what God wants in His Word, and not what men want in this world. Gary
james wrote on Sun, 11 May 2014 14:40 And it shouldn't cause a Christian to question their church's position or validity as a true church of Jesus Christs'... Gary, I'm sorry that I wrote than in a way that "might" have caused you to think I was responding to you with the comment. Actually I was thinking of something Jeff (apostle) had said concerning baptism in Jesus' Name and questioning any church that didn't baptize in that manner. Also, I'm not defending Baptist doctrine, nor condemning it; I'm seeking after 20 plus years of isolating myself to obey the instruction to assemble together with fellow believers in Christ to worship and praise Him. "Deeper"? No many of them aren't very 'deep', but their love for Jesus is apparent by their actions. All? Of course not, but the truth is, not everyone that said they were 'overcomers' and 'deeper life' disciples turned out to be either. I, like Marilyn am appreciating the points William and you are bringing up and discussing. I don't condemn you if you choose to not attend worship gatherings, hey! It has to be something within the heart, I can only speak of my own heart and relationship with Christ.....I had some 'stuff' messed up in my attitude and actions and am, by His Grace seeking to correcting it. I could rant and rail about what I see that's missing, I could comment on the shallowness, BUT I did that for years and it didn't draw ONE soul into the Kingdom of God. I'm willing to, as maybe William is alluding to, look at things in a different way, maybe God doesn't have to follow 'my agenda', it just might be that He has His own and had been patiently waiting for me to yield to it. Again. speaking of myself only, not preaching to you or seeking to influence you....we've already learned that peer pressure doesn't work, it only leads to legalism and outward conformity. Love you guys...and gals
Gary, you said: Quote: Just because anyone points out how dead and futile the system is does not mean that they do not love the people, or believe some are not genuine in their own way and are truly saved. This kinda hits at the heart of the matter. The dead system (both denominational and non-denominational) IS NOT THE CHURCH. We can't have it both ways in our thinking. Those people, who happen to be in those dead systems, are the ones that make up the church. Separating from those people, however shallow they may be, just because at times we merge the two conceptions in our minds (i.e. the institution and the people) is not, to my mind, warranted. Maybe this doesn't apply to everyone but in the past I was double minded about this, We talk about the dead system which is fine... rail against that all you want and I'll be shouting --AMEN. It's those believers, who just happen to be in those institutions, that suffer the consequences of our separation (not trying to think more highly of ourselves than is warranted here, btw. <grin>). On the one hand we bemoan the dead 'church' while at the same time we know that the real church is not that institution. We can both agree that the choices people have made in yoking themselves to that dead system is unfortunate but think about this --many of them have no clue about this particular point and how will they ever know without a preacher and if you can't find a preacher willing to be sent, then how can we blame them for not knowing? (loosely paraphrasing Rom 10:14-15). What about those who aren't sent to preach? Is it wrong to go through the door of an institution if our only purpose is for fellowship? In other words, I understand the argument that allows for contact with the institutional crowd as long as we are going to straighten them out, but what about just going for the pot-luck, is that wrong too? <grin> (You know I can't say everything here, I don't mean that serious doctrinal error should be ignored, but I'm talking about fellowshipping with people who are truly christians.) What if that same group of people were meeting at the local Elks' Lodge (I can't think of a good analogy of an institutional building to insert here but maybe the Elks' Lodge would work in place of the Baptist Church building?)... would we refuse to participate just because of the location that the believers decided to meet? Anyway, in the rest of your note you makes some points that indicate that what I've said thus far shouldn't be directed specifically toward you, so just consider the above to be a general observation to be considered! Blessings, William
I understand what you guys are saying its a "catch 22" situation or at least appears that way. From our side we have the Baptism of the Spirit, the Word, and the commission. But none of us can deny, "Where's the power to set men Free?" Unless the Lord builds the house we labor in vain. I was reading where the disciples were sent out in twos and came back testifying of God's power. The thing is this was before they even had the Baptism. Where do you go from here? Gary
james wrote on Sun, 11 May 2014 14:40 Gary wrote on Sun, 11 May 2014 09:36 Most of the teachings we heard separated us from the world and the system. Sometimes I wrestle with: is this good or is it a hindrance in trying to relate to other Christians. I think it was(and can continue to be if we let it) a hindrance, other Christians were never good enough to enjoy fellowship with. We were afraid we'd get contaminated, same with interaction with the 'world'. Not saying everyone, these are my 'opinions'...mostly of myself. A lot of what we were taught was wonderful, and I'm grateful for it, but for whatever reasons the fruit of going forth and making disciples of all nations and peoples was very unproductive, such a true passion and love for the lost and our fellow man was lacking, from what I've observed. Just because someone hasn't been baptized in Jesus' Name or speaks in tongues DOES NOT mean they aren't born-again and love Jesus. Matthew 28:19-20 is the commandment of JESUS and while I have been baptized in Jesus' Name the fact that a fellow believer in Christ was baptized in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost doesn't nullify their salvation. And it shouldn't cause a Christian to question their church's position or validity as a true church of Jesus Christs'... James, One more thing if you was commenting to Jeff it looks like all your thoughts were running together. Just looking over this comment your quoting me but you say your talking to Jeff, Interesting. Gary
Gary wrote on Mon, 12 May 2014 17:01 James, One more thing if you was commenting to Jeff it looks like all your thoughts were running together. Just looking over this comment your quoting me but you say your talking to Jeff, Interesting. Gary I wasn't commenting 'to' Jeff or talking 'to' him, I was including his comment about questioning the validity of a group of people because they hadn't been baptized in Jesus' Name as part of what I perceive to be the problem with our past(hopefully)attitudes. I made it a point to say "I think it was" and was "opinions...mostly of myself" trying in advance to avoid misunderstandings...Obviously I failed at that. You stated that you sometimes wrestled with whether it was good or a hindrance, I gave my view, if you disagree...Cool! Dat's OK. btw: as to my thoughts running together, that is a possibility. I'm really happy I can think at all...
James, Quote: James Wrote: I could rant and rail about what I see that's missing, I could comment on the shallowness, BUT I did that for years and it didn't draw ONE soul into the Kingdom of God. Keep us posted I'm interested to see if now your going to bring souls into the Kingdom with your new choices. Gary
I think that we tend to have a limited view of `discipling.` We seem to speak of it only with regard to people being saved, (by the Holy Spirit I might add). whereas if we read how the early believers operated we see that they encouraged, exhorted & guided other believers in their journey in the Lord. It was the Lord who add to their number, daily. And might I say that is happening all over the world, people coming to know the Lord. However had you thought as mature (maturing) adults in the Lord that Christ, (the Head of the Body) would have us to build up the younger ones in the faith. If we try & have `babies,` all the time then who is going to nurture them & guide them to reach out to their relationship networks. I personally just continue to visit my few ladies who I have mentored over the years & they are now reaching out & effecting those around them. We do not feel the pressure to have to have `bottoms on seats,` or at various public meetings, but just continue to move around in our daily lives with expectant hearts to encourage, lift up, comfort etc those in our relationship networks. And we all have those networks. Part of my relationship network is a very dear friend who has gone off into an extreme Catholic belief. I tried the `cut & thrust,` method as she did also. But now lead by the Holy Spirit I am teaching her music which she loves. Reviving the old scripture in song, songs & we read from God`s word & pray, (although she does lots of set prayers.) Anyway I see bit by bit God doing a work in her life & mine too, to see how He works.
On a roll here since you are probably all asleep. I have been reading with interest all your comments here relating to the system (religious), our attitude, & why there doesn`t seem to be a recognisable New Testament Church. This are just my thoughts - From Christ`s perspective He has sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth (of His Character & His Purposes). `when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He guide you into all truth: for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; & He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is mine & declare it to you.` (John 16: 13 & 14) Looking at Church history we can see the different truths that Christ by His Holy Spirit has led believers into. You have mentioned a few of these- Baptism in water, anointing of the Holy Spirit, faith, deliverance, the ministry gifts etc Now people whether they go to a public meetings organised by an organisation, or not, when they have a revelation of a certain truth they will tend to emphasise that & stand on it, as it were, defend it. Which is what we are supposed to do. Some people are blessed to be able to receive more revelation, probably due to access to great bible teachers etc (like we all were). Now to them (us) more is expected to guard the truths, discern the errors & carefully guide those who are able to receive more revelation. And to those who are `just,` standing for what we believe are basic truths we still need to see that if that is what they are standing for then that is good. Each truth needs to be defended from the enemy. And as our journeys are far from over let us get the big picture of what Christ is doing & believe by faith that that is what He is doing. The coming together of the Body will not happen till we are gathered unto Him, the Head & then we will see the Body complete.
Marilyn, This sounds like a good concept here. But tell me one thing are the brothers in Christ going around mentoring groups of people or is it just sisters? Also is this a practice among all Christian believers in Australia? Gary
Hi Gary, Yes a good question, re; the brothers or sisters especially if they are working outside the home. I`m going to share about my life before I get to the others, for it has relevance to what I would like to say. As you probably know I am retired & actually only have limited strength, (short periods of strength then I need to rest in the afternoon). Thus I am able to move around & visit, once a week to a friend`s house. I made this decision many years ago when I found that most of my time was spent preparing music & going to practice to teach for the next public meeting. I did enjoy that & the friendships made. This I did for many years & could not have imagined not doing it - nearly who I was - music director. However I had a stirring from God as to the balance of my time. I was making friends in this, (as James, in what he has shared), & realised that although I had had deeper teaching than these people I could see their love of the Lord & their willingness to serve each other. Of course there were grumps there too. Thus humbleness was again learnt & an appreciation of the whole Body of Christ. Learning to see in people`s hearts & lives the fruit of the Spirit. But God was stirring & I knew that I had to make a choice re: my time. Trevor also was seeing that the council he was on was more interested in the finance than reaching out etc. Thus Trevor & I stepped down from ministry. He is a farmer, plus great with `helps,` & thus he is able to move around the area in that capacity. He comes along side others & helps, gives wisdom or just a listening ear. Yet a lot of his time is on the tractor, but this is part of the quiet maturing in his life. God tells us to live a quiet life. I see this in other brothers in our network of relationships. They go to work & do a conscientious job, (which speaks loudly) they don`t speak as the world does, but encouragingly to others. As I`ve said before about men having to stand in this damaged world which especially rails against godly men. They stand out like beacons & Christian women are very thankful to them as they (you)are God`s protecting in a way for the wife, sister, family etc. There is a `Standing in the spirit` also for the truths that we have been taught yet still having relationship with other Christians even if they do not agree on every point. `Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; & if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.` (Phil. 3: 15) I think what I am trying to convey is that there is a time & a season in God`s work. And as the Body of Christ I see that the time right now (& has been for quite a while) has to do with God addressing deep things in our personal lives, a fresh look at the Body of Christ - people & not organisational focussed, and assessing what we really believe is truth, & not just spouting what we have been taught, ie. has it been worked out in daily life. Thus God is preparing a people whom He has dug deeply in their lives,(& I can see this is happening in your lives too)ready for the final stage of ingathering. This will not be gathered into public organisations which are getting more connected to the world by rules & regulations, but the ingathering will be to caring mature `mothers & fathers,` in the spiritual sense who are connected to others relationally. This God will do as we let Him do that deep work in our lives. I see within a few (2 -3) years that the world will have more economic crashes & many people will be in great need, emotionally, financially & spiritually etc. As we`ve readied ourselves in the Lord, He will give us those to mentor. We often think that Jesus picked who He wanted but actually it was God the Father who gave Jesus those people. (John 17: 6) So take heart Godly men, keep on living quiet lives, let God do that work in your life, keep standing for the truths He gave & finally in prayer be patient for Christ is the Head & will give you `spiritual children.`
Quote: There is a `Standing in the spirit` also for the truths that we have been taught yet still having relationship with other Christians even if they do not agree on every point. As I read this statement it almost clarified something for me... (btw, nothing wrong with your statement; I only meant it started to connect some dots in my own head!) 'Standing in the spirit' concerning the truth is something we value very much but maybe how that is done is where we may need some refinement. An example: 1. Salvation is in the atonement. (We are saved by the Blood of Jesus) Truth #1 2. The Holy Spirit is promised to christians. (We are baptized in the Spirit) Truth #2 3. Healing is in the atonement for christians. (We are healed by the wounds of Jesus) Truth #3 I could go on and on here listing truths that we know but this should be enough to show what I'm trying to get across. With these three truths there is a progression from #1. (The order from #1 doesn't matter --there are a lot more truths that we can build with but it all begins from #1). None of us, no matter how much extra truth we've embraced, should be threatened by any assembly of believers who have at least embraced #1. In other words, we shouldn't fear that the truth we have embraced is somehow in jeopardy if we surround ourselves with believers who have not yet embraced things that follow. We don't compromise ourselves by embracing group #1, even if group #1 hasn't embraced or 'seen the light' on much else. This is the area that I've struggled with in the past. I had a fear that unless I separated from those not walking in all of the truth that I had, I was somehow compromising the truth. I haven't expressed the depth of what I'm thinking here, and maybe no one else's experience was like mine, but at least it is a start. Marilyn, I think you have said essentially the same thing regarding the truth that different groups have sought to protect. I'm only trying to take it a step further and show that one doesn't give up the truth that has been deposited just because they decide not to separate from others who may or may not have been privileged with the same truth. (Heresy and deception are completely different situations, i.e. sometimes separation is the only option in such cases. 2John 1:9 ) Blessings, William
Hi William, Very well expressed. A good & vital point to emphasise as we have been taught such deep truths that there can come fear or pride (as in my case). I thought we were the cream of the cream because of the depth of wisdom & knowledge & prophetic words etc. Then over the years as I have moved around the country teaching in different towns, & have gone to different fellowships I have by God`s grace had my eyes & heart opened to God`s work in people & across His Body. PTL. I have learnt a lot here on OO as to how to come over (still learning) & how others think & see things. It is all an enlarging in the spirit. I also think when one realises another`s gifting say, pastoral, then they are focussed on the help & comfort of a person, whereas a teacher type like myself wants to tell the person how & why & wherefore. etc. So I`m trying to hold off with the immediate, `you should have.....` & learn to listen to the heart. If you know what I mean. Interesting & important as to how we see what Christ is doing, building His Body, with various ones standing for the truth & emphasis of their ministry gifting.
I believe God is stirring up a topic here of importance. Cults are recognised by their `fear,` & `pride.` (I believe) Fear of those outside the group & pride in their superior so-called knowledge. This leads to exclusivity & elitism. Remember Paul considered himself a Pharisee of the Pharisee. Till the Lord humbled him & he sought to know HIM. Each denomination are standing for & protecting certain truths but as the years progress this becomes stagnant & past centred. Individuals can progress in knowing the Lord but it is hard for those bastions of past eras to move from their camp site around the great truth they received & still have a right attitude to others. I believe there is no elite group in the Body of Christ. People may have received more revelation, teaching etc but that is only to share & pass on. For we can have all knowledge etc but if we do not have `the right attitude, ` `Christ`s heart,` spoken & lived then we are (as we well know) a noisy gong. (Boing, boing) We are either an Overcomer or `spat out.`
Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 13 May 2014 23:20 I believe God is stirring up a topic here of importance. Cults are recognised by their `fear,` & `pride.` (I believe) Fear of those outside the group & pride in their superior so-called knowledge. This leads to exclusivity & elitism. Remember Paul considered himself a Pharisee of the Pharisee. Till the Lord humbled him & he sought to know HIM. Each denomination are standing for & protecting certain truths but as the years progress this becomes stagnant & past centred. Individuals can progress in knowing the Lord but it is hard for those bastions of past eras to move from their camp site around the great truth they received & still have a right attitude to others. I believe there is no elite group in the Body of Christ. People may have received more revelation, teaching etc but that is only to share & pass on. For we can have all knowledge etc but if we do not have `the right attitude, ` `Christ`s heart,` spoken & lived then we are (as we well know) a noisy gong. (Boing, boing) We are either an Overcomer or `spat out.` Hi Marilyn and William, I just wrote a nice big post and lost it, oh well. Anyway very good posts here. I for one am glad you Marilyn came to our board here. At first I was irritated with the OO membership because I thought everyone was attacking you. On one hand people were talking about love and dying on the cross, on the other I thought how can they not receive someone from another country who is a professing Christian, they did not even know. I wanted to attack certain peoples posts and take up for our Sister in Christ, but on the other hand I was somewhat leery because I did not know what you (Marilyn) believed, remember I told you I hoped you didn't have any rabbits to pull out of the hat, we talked about this. Anyway to make a long story short Marilyn, we were labeled as a "cult" by the media, local churches, and family. It was because of our stand on divine healing and some families thought we lost it over the holidays. The national media was showing up at our churches and labeling us as a bad cult because of divine healing. But surprisingly the church kept growing rapidly. We had meetings all over the United States and even overseas they were springing up. Then Dr. Freeman died and the body slowly eroded what you see here is the remnant picking up the pieces and trying to go on with the Lord. I don't think we were a cult but we closed our doors to the world and the churches and I don't think we thought we were elite but we wanted to please the Lord and come out from among them. We did think we had the truth maybe this could be seen as eliteism. I found by reading church history this happens to every group they get a measure of truth, the leadership goes on in the Lord they then close the doors around this truth and become another denomination. William made a good point by mentioning his struggles with certain things, we've all had these struggles. Wanting to please the Lord in everything but finding the balance. We do know what the Bible tells us and we know God is not a man that He should lie. Would like to share more sometime but must go to work for now. At least you got some of the basics here. Gary
Quote: None of us, no matter how much extra truth we've embraced, should be threatened by any assembly of believers who have at least embraced #1. In other words, we shouldn't fear that the truth we have embraced is somehow in jeopardy if we surround ourselves with believers who have not yet embraced things that follow. We don't compromise ourselves by embracing group #1, even if group #1 hasn't embraced or 'seen the light' on much else. This is the area that I've struggled with in the past. I had a fear that unless I separated from those not walking in all of the truth that I had, I was somehow compromising the truth. I haven't expressed the depth of what I'm thinking here, and maybe no one else's experience was like mine, but at least it is a start. (Heresy and deception are completely different situations, i.e. sometimes separation is the only option in such cases. 2John 1:9 ) Blessings, William Once again William you have cut to the heart of the matter, and no you're not the only one who has struggled with this attitude. This is the crux of what I've learned over the past year, first fellowshipping/worshipping with fellow believers who may or may not have all the 'truths' I've been given doen't in anyway compromise those truths I've been given; and secondly what chance is there for them to hear those truths unless someone is willing to share them, even at the expense of being rejected? So concerning my 'new choices' for bring souls into God's Kingdom, it's not so much a new choice I've made as much as it's a growing awareness of God's GRACE unto me and what it should look like when I do unto others as He has done unto me. While I was yet a sinner Christ died for me, and when I haven't had the right attitude towards others He didn't cast me away, His love is unfailing and steadfast...I'm asking Him to make me like Him, rather than a self-righteous critic of all things that doesn't line up with what I think I know.
How wonderful to hear each other`s heart & what the Lord is doing. He is building His Body & the proof of that is changed lives & personally, changes in our own life. I`m off mentoring, sharing, praying & fellowshipping with a friend in a nearby town. Also building a relationship with my hairdresser afterwards. May you all have a good day, knowing His presence & building relationships too.
Trevor says - Truth does not generate fear but should always generate something of the character of Christ in our life, because then it will be the `Truth with Love,` (the right attitude.)
Quote: William Wrote: (Heresy and deception are completely different situations, i.e. sometimes separation is the only option in such cases. 2John 1:9 ) Hi William, This might be worth looking into sometime. We know heresy is when they tamper with the Godhead or the doctrine of Christ. Deception could be a much broader area or for some much narrower determining what one would consider a deception. For instance the basic things you mentioned above concerning the Baptism. If a person has no knowledge of the experience we could see that they just don't know. But if someone reads it in the word or maybe they heard it from a family member and then asks someone in their denomination about it, and their told someone is miss leading them. Well in reality this person in leadership is the one who has been deceived by the wicked one. John McArthur who is a leading figure in the Baptist Church is very anti Charismatic and anti Baptism of the Spirit. And he is very vocal in his stand. This well known Baptist leader who is learned in the Greek and Hebrew has a mission to crush any teaching that reeks of Charismatic type teaching. I would think in this case the man would be considered a deceiver and is deceiving multitudes with his writings. There are a number of posts or blogs in Christian magazines of his attacks on the charismatic church. Where does deception began and end? Is this man just one without knowledge or is he deceiving with his doctrines. Other questions that come to mind is what constitutes error and deception? Is there a fine line or the line maybe determined by the individual who is faced with these doctrinal stances. Jesus said if we love Him we would keep His doctrine. I assume this means everything He taught on in the Scriptures especially in the gospels since those are His direct words. It might be good someday to determine if and where does this line even exist. Gary
Gary wrote on Thu, 15 May 2014 04:36 Quote: William Wrote: (Heresy and deception are completely different situations, i.e. sometimes separation is the only option in such cases. 2John 1:9 ) Hi William, This might be worth looking into sometime. We know heresy is when they tamper with the Godhead or the doctrine of Christ. Deception could be a much broader area or for some much narrower determining what one would consider a deception. For instance the basic things you mentioned above concerning the Baptism. If a person has no knowledge of the experience we could see that they just don't know. But if someone reads it in the word or maybe they heard it from a family member and then asks someone in their denomination about it, and their told someone is miss leading them. Well in reality this person in leadership is the one who has been deceived by the wicked one. John McArthur who is a leading figure in the Baptist Church is very anti Charismatic and anti Baptism of the Spirit. And he is very vocal in his stand. This well known Baptist leader who is learned in the Greek and Hebrew has a mission to crush any teaching that reeks of Charismatic type teaching. I would think in this case the man would be considered a deceiver and is deceiving multitudes with his writings. There are a number of posts or blogs in Christian magazines of his attacks on the charismatic church. Where does deception began and end? Is this man just one without knowledge or is he deceiving with his doctrines. Other questions that come to mind is what constitutes error and deception? Is there a fine line or the line maybe determined by the individual who is faced with these doctrinal stances. Jesus said if we love Him we would keep His doctrine. I assume this means everything He taught on in the Scriptures especially in the gospels since those are His direct words. It might be good someday to determine if and where does this line even exist. Gary I was a part of a church once where everyone was deceived (including me) so I can't say I'm the best one to answer where someone should draw the line. I do know that I was surrounded by a bunch of people who loved Jesus with their whole heart and I can't think of anywhere I'd rather have been. Blessings, William
Quote: I was a part of a church once where everyone was deceived (including me) so I can't say I'm the best one to answer where someone should draw the line. I do know that I was surrounded by a bunch of people who loved Jesus with their whole heart and I can't think of anywhere I'd rather have been. Blessings, William Hi William, I don't understand, What do you mean by this? In what way are you talking about? Please share I won't be taken back, I just don't understand what you mean. In what way? I assume your talking about FA. Write a PM if you don't want to say publically. Thanks, Gary
Hi Gary, Error & deception. Will think on this more but what first came to mind was Christ`s words of warning to the believers at Ephesus & then Pergamos. `But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.` (Rev. 2: 6) `Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.` (Rev. 2: 15) Nickolas - Gk. words. `nikao,` to conquer, & `laos,` the people. To conquer the people. `nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.` (1 Peter 5: 3) Thus we can see that the `deeds,` (error?) by some believers in Ephesus have become `doctrine, teaching, (supposedly what God declared) in Pergamos. This is a great deception as we see so rampant today leading to all sorts of errors & other deceptions. How can the lowly flock then question those God has supposedly put in charge, in a hierarchical order. But rather as Peter says, `examples,` not `lords.` This is a very important question & discussion you have highlighted Gary.
Gary wrote on Thu, 15 May 2014 15:19 Quote: I was a part of a church once where everyone was deceived (including me) so I can't say I'm the best one to answer where someone should draw the line. I do know that I was surrounded by a bunch of people who loved Jesus with their whole heart and I can't think of anywhere I'd rather have been. Blessings, William Hi William, I don't understand, What do you mean by this? In what way are you talking about? Please share I won't be taken back, I just don't understand what you mean. In what way? I assume your talking about FA. Write a PM if you don't want to say publically. Thanks, Gary I just meant that no matter where you are there is going to be error and deception, and I don't know how to tell someone where to draw the line. Personally, I gave up a long time ago trying to find someone to feed my spiritual needs so when I go and assemble with a group of believers, it is solely for the purpose of fellowshipping with other brothers and sisters in Christ. Blessings, William