And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
The Apostles and Prophets are foundational leaders in Jesus's Church/Churches. Not someones to be ignored.
I like to think of Church authority like the chain of command in the Air Force. Generals/Apostles, Colonels/Prophets (the emblem is the Eagle {seer}), Majors/Evangelists (dealing with large numbers), Captians/Pastors (often in position of AF commander), Luetenants/Teachers. All these and the deacons will do well to serve faithfully in what they do. Im not saying this is a perfect analogy - yet many have to realize that people in chain of authority and others cannot just do what they want without accountabliity in GOD'S church. God set the leadership in HIS church and that's the way it is.
The churches of the Holy Spirit need to be in order with the bible.
Here's what Apostles are called to be: Servants and slaves to the body of Christ nothing else but that. Mark 10:41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be greatly displeased with James and John. 42 But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant.
Accountability , this term has been used since the 1970's . It means to be in bondage to those who lord it over the flock and set themselves In authority over those who lack knowledge of Gods Word !
Apostle wrote on Fri, 25 April 2014 14:27 I like to think of Church authority like the chain of command in the Air Force. Generals/Apostles, Colonels/Prophets (the emblem is the Eagle {seer}), Majors/Evangelists (dealing with large numbers), Captians/Pastors (often in position of AF commander), Luetenants/Teachers. All these and the deacons will do well to serve faithfully in what they do. Im not saying this is a perfect analogy - yet many have to realize that people in chain of authority and others cannot just do what they want without accountabliity in GOD'S church. God set the leadership in HIS church and that's the way it is. Can you give a biblical example that equates Church structure with the kind of hierarchy you are describing? I'm not looking for Eph 2:20 because the Church has already been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Jesus being the chief corner stone); I'm interested in passages that would describe the authority structure as you have described it, i.e. a "chain of command" authority structure. Blessings, William
Not leaders, elders, teachers? Your mistaken. thank you.
I would think that most the leadership responsibilities would be among others who call themselves "ministers", who are departing from the true way. The restoration of the full 5-fold ministry is for blessing in the way of the God, its not a negative thing.
Proof texts?? I would have to reference pretty much, what...half of PAUL's writings to explain the clear biblical principle that Apostles are high leadership in the church. Shall I come with a rod? Let everyone that loves not the Lord Jesus be accursed. Turn such a one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, etc. etc. etc. It's clear biblical teaching - If you notice the meeting in Acts 15 - certain elders meet for questions of doctrinal clarity and sent out a finding. If someone doesn't know from reading the bible, that Apostles are head among the elders...what can I say? They and prophets are foundational leaders in the church.
PS - Do you think that this means chronologically? 1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Thanks
Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 10:12 Proof texts?? I would have to reference pretty much, what...half of PAUL's writings to explain the clear biblical principle that Apostles are high leadership in the church. Shall I come with a rod? Let everyone that loves not the Lord Jesus be accursed. Turn such a one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, etc. etc. etc. It's clear biblical teaching - If you notice the meeting in Acts 15 - certain elders meet for questions of doctrinal clarity and sent out a finding. If someone doesn't know from reading the bible, that Apostles are head among the elders...what can I say? They and prophets are foundational leaders in the church. No, you are missing the question. I'm not talking just about apostles. I'm asking for an example of the "chain of command" concept you describe. In other words can you give an example of this type of scenario: Apostles >> Only answer to God--the commander and chief. Prophets >> Answer to apostles--the head of all of the elders Evangelists >> Answer to the apostles and prophets -- a continuation of the "chain of command". Pastors/teachers >> Answer to all of the above -- i.e. "chain of command". Regular christians >> Answer to everyone in the "chain of command". Its a simple question, and no you don't have to look up half of what Paul wrote --just give one example and if there are exceptions give those. Acts 15 isn't a good example because here you have a situation where Paul--the apostle of the gentiles, getting instructions from James (presumed to be a pastor/teacher at Jerusalem) concerning the supposed purview of Paul (the apostle of the gentiles). Blessings, William
Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 10:18 PS - Do you think that this means chronologically? 1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Thanks So let me see if I understand... you are saying that apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists (presumably), those with the gift of healings, and finally those with the gift of helps, these all are over the "governments" of the church? Is this the "chain of command" you describe? Blessings, William
Since Paul's example of "appointing elders in every place" is clear. Isn't it common sense that He had authority in such matters? I don't think any true minister of God would have problem with mutual respect among ministries and especially in regards to Prophets and Apostles? But hey, I appreciate the diligence to follow up on claims of Apostleship, just use the whole context of the New Testament (or don't, it's a free world). Just know if you don't take the whole of scripture, you will be setting yourselves for trouble. (PS - I use the word "you" in general ei everybody, sense.) Thanks. PS - I knew this post was going to start trouble. True Apostles and Prophets come with HIS authority to help the saints and TO SPEAK AGAINST ALL THE ERRORS OF THE END TIMES
I said "I like to think of it that way". To me it's a clear generalization that I would think would be known among bible knowers that Apostles are chief authority in the church??? I gave about three examples of Pauls authority and Peters and Pauls life in the scripture is evidence of their authority. ex They were together on Solomons porch and no man durst join himself to them. Its the whole context throughout all the scripture that Apostles are special leaders for special high purposes including oversight of other leadership. ei appointing elders in every city...
Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 10:35 Since Paul's example of "appointing elders in every place" is clear. Isn't it common sense that He had authority in such matters? I don't think any true minister of God would have problem with mutual respect among ministries and especially in regards to Prophets and Apostles? But hey, I appreciate the diligence to follow up on claims of Apostleship, just use the whole context of the New Testament (or don't, it's a free world). Just know if you don't take the whole of scripture, you will be setting yourselves for trouble. (PS - I use the word "you" in general ei everybody, sense.) Thanks. PS - I knew this post was going to start trouble. True Apostles and Prophets come with HIS authority to help the saints and TO SPEAK AGAINST ALL THE ERRORS OF THE END TIMES Why did Paul go to the church at Jerusalem and why was James the one giving the recommendations? I mean if Paul has the authority over the gentiles then why didn't he just settle the issue? btw, all of us here are "true" ministers of God, all of us here take the "whole" bible as our authority, which is why we are seeking to understand what you mean by "chain of command". It's a concept you brought up, and since you brought it up I'm asking for a "biblical" example --common sense may suffice in some situations, but not in the particular concept you brought up. Blessings, William
I wouldn't always use the word "answer to" but better idea of carrying authority from God, if people dishonor Gods authorities - God Himself can deal with the matter (or maybe they'll get turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh?). Mostly the Apostles are the chief elders. I wouldn't want to be a false bible teacher and disregard the warnings of an Apostle. Thanks.
Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 10:55 I said "I like to think of it that way". To me it's a clear generalization that I would think would be known among bible knowers that Apostles are chief authority in the church??? I gave about three examples of Pauls authority and Peters and Pauls life in the scripture is evidence of their authority. ex They were together on Solomons porch and no man durst join himself to them. Its the whole context throughout all the scripture that Apostles are special leaders for special high purposes including oversight of other leadership. ei appointing elders in every city... Again, I'm not referring to just apostles. The CHAIN OF COMMAND statement is WORTHLESS without the other pieces of the chain. You can't have a chain without the rest of the pieces. I asked for one biblical example that shows this "chain of command" you mentioned. You brought up Acts 15 which defies the "chain of command" argument for the reasons I mentioned. The next passage you brought up was 1Cor 12:28. I've posted questions about this as well. If you just want to say that the "chain of command" was only your personal opinion, then that is fine... if you want us to accept it as fact then show us the reason by giving us an example. Blessings, William
I am not implying that anyone here in particular is false. Just generalization. I do disagree that Eph2:20 ended with the early church or that Acts 15 isn't a clear example of levels of authority. Once again - may I ask William - Is it your view that Apostles are not the Chief elders in the church?? Thanks. All love and truth .
Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 11:02 I wouldn't always use the word "answer to" but better idea of carrying authority from God, if people dishonor Gods authorities - God Himself can deal with the matter (or maybe they'll get turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh?). Mostly the Apostles are the chief elders. I wouldn't want to be a false bible teacher and disregard the warnings of an Apostle. Thanks. I perhaps understand your preoccupation with apostles... but again, I'm not talking about apostles, I'm talking about how the rest of the chain works. If you don't like "answer to", then substitute something else... but it seems to me that anything else you substitute for "answers to" would be even stronger. "Authority" without someone answering to the authority is non-nonsensical to me. I mean, how can you have authority without someone answering to that authority? Blessings, William
It is my personal opinion as why I said "I like to think of ", but I believe it is based on fact and can be helpful to understand that God is calling people to come with authority that God Himself will verify. Do you think a teacher in a church can stand up and say, Pastor - you sit down today - I'm going to preach. There are understood levels of authority in the church. Its shown throughout the overall context of the new testament and experience.
I also said "it's not a perfect analogy", but there are so many religious who think they can just say and do what they want with out any oversight that can bring judgment. If people are not following scripture- Apostles, prophets, etc.- I may call them out and then we will continue to see if God responds.
Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 11:11 I am not implying that anyone here in particular is false. Just generalization. I do disagree that Eph2:20 ended with the early church or that Acts 15 isn't a clear example of levels of authority. Once again - may I ask William - Is it your view that Apostles are not the Chief elders in the church?? Thanks. All love and truth . 1) Concerning Eph2:20, I'm not saying that it "ended". Any true church will have been built first on Jesus Christ, and any subsequent building would have been built upon the teachings of the apostles and prophets which we have recorded for us in the scriptures. 2) Concerning Acts15. What is the "level" of authority presented here? Paul, an apostle to the gentiles, goes to James, a leader of the Jerusalem church (not to gentiles). What is the "chain of command" example that we can bank on from this? 3) Concerning your last question --"Is it your view that apostles are not the chief elders in the church?" My view is that they aren't *necessarily* the chief elders of the church. I'll explain what I mean by *necessarily* when we get some answers from you. Blessings, William
Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 11:16 It is my personal opinion as why I said "I like to think of ", but I believe it is based on fact and can be helpful to understand that God is calling people to come with authority that God Himself will verify. Do you think a teacher in a church can stand up and say, Pastor - you sit down today - I'm going to preach. There are understood levels of authority in the church. Its shown throughout the overall context of the new testament and experience. Well, according to the example that you've given to us: 1Cor12:28 The teacher is on the third level, right below the apostles and prophets, making his place in the "chain of command" higher than any of the rest. Blessings, William
Yet, I want to stand by the main idea of my general presentation that there r levels of authority among Gods ministers
Evangelists and Pastors can be teachers too. COVET ERNESTLY THE BEST GIFTS
Apostle wrote on Sat, 26 April 2014 11:25 I also said "it's not a perfect analogy", but there are so many religious who think they can just say and do what they want with out any oversight that can bring judgment. If people are not following scripture- Apostles, prophets, etc.- I may call them out and then we will continue to see if God responds. Well, if you are going to "call them out", then I think perhaps you should not be giving us less-than-perfect analogies... ESPECIALLY if you can't give reasons for the analogy. Secondly, are you saying that those who may be "called out" include us? You'd better think twice and come up with some scriptural examples that gives someone that kind of authority over people who you had nothing to do with before this week. Especially since your only claim to fame is the moniker you signed up with. William
Since Apostles and prophets are still valid, they still are foundational.
I think Ive given enough clarification on that issue from all sides. Thanks.
Okay, it's your call as to whether or not you want to answer the one question I asked, but if you aren't going to do it, then I will. Here is what you said: Apostle wrote on Fri, 25 April 2014 14:27 I like to think of Church authority like the chain of command in the Air Force. Generals/Apostles, Colonels/Prophets (the emblem is the Eagle {seer}), Majors/Evangelists (dealing with large numbers), Captians/Pastors (often in position of AF commander), Luetenants/Teachers. All these and the deacons will do well to serve faithfully in what they do. Im not saying this is a perfect analogy - yet many have to realize that people in chain of authority and others cannot just do what they want without accountabliity in GOD'S church. God set the leadership in HIS church and that's the way it is. So I asked this question: Quote: Can you give a biblical example that equates Church structure with the kind of hierarchy you are describing? Your answer should have been: "No, I can't." You also point out to us: Quote: If you notice the meeting in Acts 15 - certain elders meet for questions of doctrinal clarity and sent out a finding. I don't consider myself an "elder" (I'm still a young puppy!) but I was seeking clarity, and since you said: Quote: "true apostles and prophets come with HIS authority to help the saints and TO SPEAK AGAINST ALL THE ERRORS OF THE END TIMES" ...I figured that this meant that you might want to help clear up any erroneous ideas that we might have concerning the "chain of command" idea that you said dominates half of Paul's writings. What I see in Paul's writings is that he indeed had authority, but not blanket authority--it was authority over the churches that he established. He says exactly this in this passage: Quote: But we will not boast of things without [our] measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. For we stretch not ourselves beyond [our measure], as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in [preaching] the gospel of Christ: Not boasting of things without [our] measure, [that is], of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, To preach the gospel in the [regions] beyond you, [and] not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand. 2Co 10:13 KJV One need only examine the differences between his letters to the Corinthians (his measure, or we could say, his sphere of authority --due to having established this church) and his letter to the Romans (which he did not establish). The differences are profound with respect to his authority. If there are no examples of your claim of a "chain of authority", beginning with the apostles and ending with us regular christians, then the obvious question is: "Where does this idea originate?" This was the basis of my question. If you had answered that question by giving us only ONE biblical example of this "chain of authority" then I would necessarily be under obligation to re-examine my position and my understanding about the origins of this idea. As it stands right now I'm under the assumption that this idea falls under the category of one of those "errors of the end time" that you yourself claim to be sent to correct. It looks like to me that this whole idea of a "chain of command/authority" is a man-made tradition that we are warned against in the very bible that we are called to follow. Gary and Ron both gave good reasons for not accepting your idea without discrimination. Gary mentioned Mark 10:41 which is pretty clear concerning the attitude of those who might aspire to rule. Ron pointed out the dangerous implications of the concept when it is applied to those who lack knowledge of God's word. Marilyn quoted a relevant passage that should give anyone pause before accepting an idea just because it comes from one who claims to be an apostle: Quote: I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: Rev 2:2 KJV If this idea is one that has its roots in human understanding and philosophy then Paul's words of warning is heightened in its applicability to us: Quote: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2:8 KJV Again, it should go without saying, I believe in apostolic authority as it is presented in the bible, I think we all do, but this whole idea of a "chain of authority" beginning with the apostle and ending up with the regular christian with every link of the chain representing a specific level of authority over the end-link (but not the prior link) is the problem I'm having. William
I don't want to belabor the point but after my last note I googled (out of curiosity) the terms "chain of command" and church and there were close to half-a-million links. After refining the search a bit ("biblical basis" "chain of command" church) it was a more reasonable amount (2000 or so). One of the first links I clicked on was fantastic! I've stated that I've always had an interest in Church Government but it looks as if this guy has spent his life writing (and producing videos) on the subject. I've just read about a dozen articles and watched 2 of his videos and I'm ready to say that I'm just a hobbyist when it comes to the subject. He goes into much detail concerning the subject we are discussing, i.e its roots and modern-day application, and I'm ready to just throw in the towel and put my hand over my mouth --like Job --because I don't think that I could add anything that would be better expressed than he has done. As usual, with any link, one must say that it is possible that there may be things that one may disagree with, so there, I've said it. (Apostle, you might want to ignore the video comment--in the introduction --about apostles being the bus drivers!<grin>) Okay folks here it is --everything you always wanted to know about church government but were afraid to ask! http://www.visionofthechurch.com/
Mr. Christian cannot say to Mr. Deacon - Do not minister to that one, Mr. Deacon cant tell Mr. Teacher - don't teach on that, Mr. Teacher can't tell Mr. Pastor what to do at Sunday meeting, Mr. Pastor cant tell visiting community evangelist not to preach on that and on and on. Its a simple well understandable idea. Because those in authority in these positions have the higher level of authority to make those calls then the others. I don't like to labor such a matter. Ask a 10 year old if they can do want they want "in church" without regard to the proper authorities. Its the same I have been saying all along.
Part of what I am called to do, is make simple matters clear. I don't belabor with "proof texts", issues that are clearly within the overall context and example of scripture and experience. I don't give proof texts that I will get wet in rain, but it's still true. PS - Some of you may want to be a little more friendly and a little less adversarial - Believe that.
Since this seems to be the "hot" area. Does anybody here attend a NT bible practicing church?
Apostle wrote on Mon, 28 April 2014 09:36 Since this seems to be the "hot" area. Does anybody here attend a NT bible practicing church? Personally I've never been in a church where the foundational goal was anything but practicing the bible. How well that foundational truth was carried out is another question --it is a matter of degrees, but I suspect that this would be the case in all assemblies where believers gather. William
Another complexity. Yes, every church pretty well says "they follow the bible", I'm referring to churches that would be approved of by God like those in Revelations 2,3. That real bible practicers know that at least in fundamentals are sound (which eliminates about 99.999 % of all churches). Just the denominational label and refusal to follow baptism in Jesus name - eliminates most from "biblical churches" classification. Perhaps I will right more about foundational doctrines in fulfilling the plan of God. and write more . and It's going to be simple - yet profound. Which is pretty much the way God works with me. Three first general things and then the specific plan for each person which also connects with Church and deliverance. (which is what I had rather been writing on - other than ministers having authority), But it's OK. Got to learn about this environment some.
PS - If anyone wants to tear apart every perceived perception of what I write. Please don't. Thanks. It's not best for edifying. Stick with the general understood truth and lets DO GOD'S PLAN.
Not that I'm the Administrator, or Moderator, or anything. I just tell people good things - whoever and wherever they are.
Unless I have to bring something bad, and I do that to. But I prefer the good.
Accountability means a person can't just do what they want in God's church without sowing and reaping. Accountability in what I'm trying to show is - that if you depart from the way of God of the scriptures and the Holy Spirit, that there are people in positions of authority in the church by virtue of God's appointment - that you may be called to account by. Think Ananias and Saphira (sp) for one. Paul gives many examples as well -as God will judge the situation. Some people need to forget about these FA denomination "catch words" and use a dictionary?
From what I've read so far. I would not expect that people r largely in bible churches in this forum. Not the doctrine - but the attitude. That's not a good thing btw.
Apostle wrote on Mon, 28 April 2014 09:28 Mr. Christian cannot say to Mr. Deacon - Do not minister to that one, Mr. Deacon cant tell Mr. Teacher - don't teach on that, Mr. Teacher can't tell Mr. Pastor what to do at Sunday meeting, Mr. Pastor cant tell visiting community evangelist not to preach on that and on and on. Its a simple well understandable idea. Because those in authority in these positions have the higher level of authority to make those calls then the others. I don't like to labor such a matter. Ask a 10 year old if they can do want they want "in church" without regard to the proper authorities. Its the same I have been saying all along. You asked me in a PM about my response to this (the above quote) and I said that I would answer you openly here. Neither Mr. apostle (nor Mr. deacon, nor Mr. teacher, nor Mr. evangelist) can say to 'mr. regular christian' --"don't question what I say". I had a question about what you said, I've laid out the reasons for the question, and you tell me you can't be bothered with scriptural details. Do tell, what 'authority' do you (or anyone else that names the name of Christ) have over me (mr. regular christian) in this type of circumstance? Your answer might help me to understand whether or not you have any understanding about 'authority' in the church. Mk 10:42-45 clearly overturns the whole notion of some segment of the christian population having ANY 'AUTHORITY' over other segments of the christian population. Biblical authority is leadership, not rulership. It is service, not authoritarianism. Leadership is a concept that ought to inspire others to follow, it is not a concept that coerces free-born-christians into bondage to some false concept (expressed by you) concerning a "chain of command/authority," or some "accountability" to that supposed 'authority'. So where is your 'accountability' to mr. regular christian? Buzzword? I do cringe when I hear the word, but that is only because I have NEVER heard the word used properly without the baggage of the "chain of command" kind of thinking. William (Edited to correct the scriptural reference. It should have been-- MK10:42-45)
Jeff, we really don't need you to come along and tell us that we aren't part of the 'perfect' Bible church/assembly/gathering; (we already know) believe me when I tell you that we've all struggled with finding a gathering that taught/believed as we did when we were associated with Faith Assembly. And we've not found a pastor/teacher like Hobart Freeman. That being said, we all desire Christian fellowship and desire to obey the clear instructions to assemble ourselves together to worship and praise God. Some have found fellowship and some haven't; some(me) stopped looking and gave up and just sat in judgment of "the harlot system of man", until The Lord dealt with me about it and so now I'm attending a church where The Word IS taught, nope, not like HEF and not exactly like in the book of Acts. But I believe unless and until God shows me differently I'll continue to worship there. btw: a perfect church is no longer perfect when you or I walk in; I've not met anyone perfect and sinless since I became a follower of Christ, though I strive daily to walk even as He walked. I know from experience it's easy to find the flaws, point out the deceptions in others; it's altogether different to look in the mirror of God's Word and apply it to oneself with equal honesty. You spoke of humility earlier, it only comes when we begin to see ourselves as we really are...and as painful as that sometimes is, it's a very good thing. Then we can begin to receive from others and grow in Christ without a false sense of pride and self-righteousness blinding us. It's at that place we can begin to actually understand and receive taking on 'the mind of Christ', "let this mind be in you ..." Phil.2:5 The mind of a servant, not a general/commander/admiral.
You don't get that it's not a matter of "don't question what I say". Because those of us who actually are called by Jesus to 5 fold ministry in His church understand what humility and mutual respect is. I never said that anyhow. That's probably part of why it's not a perfect analogy, which I clearly stated. Maybe you want God to just let all the former FA ministers that now support Vineyard or other denominations just go around saying that baptism in Jesus name is not important or other such things without someone calling that and them out. You'll see how this goes it looks like.
In conclusion - My response is. Since you prefer this in open post. Your wrong in your opposition to what I was saying and your wrong in your lack of kindness and respect. Thanks.
James - Some people are not in biblical churches because they are stubborn. Like when they trouble people who God has sent to help and tell the truth about such matters. Some people are unruly and need to embrace The Plan of God for their life. Which btw - I can help with. I'm experiencing life and victory in Jesus. For all that trouble me -Let them ask themselves this - Am I like Jesus (ei Are you like Jesus? - in other words). That's the starting point (PS - u don't have to tell me that people have probably heard that idea before, Thanks). I am still willing to help the wandering souls. Thanks. I hate that all this has both stressed and unfortunately angered me (for that has not bode well for the angerers) (not you James - although I wish you had not been so quick to point out the negative sides). In the 5 years that you knew me - do you ever ever remember me getting in any trouble over any wrong doctrine. No - and you would have known. What has caused the stir here, I stand by. It's a good understanding of levels and spheres of authority in the church from a former AF member, who knows what mutual respect is among people in all aspects of God's church. Thanks.
Apostle wrote on Tue, 29 April 2014 12:42 You don't get that it's not a matter of "don't question what I say". Because those of us who actually are called by Jesus to 5 fold ministry in His church understand what humility and mutual respect is. I never said that anyhow. That's probably part of why it's not a perfect analogy, which I clearly stated. Maybe you want God to just let all the former FA ministers that now support Vineyard or other denominations just go around saying that baptism in Jesus name is not important or other such things without someone calling that and them out. You'll see how this goes it looks like. It isn't that what you posited was "not a perfect analogy" --IT ISN'T AN ANALOGY AT ALL. However, by using the analogy, it clearly reveals that you actually do think that this "chain of command", is an operational model for the christian church. If being "kind and respectful" means that I shouldn't point out this obviously flawed understanding you posted on an open forum, then no, I guess I'm not kind and respectful, at least as you understand the phrase. Perhaps it would be better for us all to just accept what you say, and in the spirit of kindness and respectability say amen? William
Apostle wrote on Tue, 29 April 2014 12:42 You don't get that it's not a matter of "don't question what I say". What more have I done? The only thing I've done is "question what you have said". For this, I get no answer, and I get schooled on what it means to be "kind and respectful". That might be appropriate if one joins an organization that leaves little option for dissent, i.e. it works in a chain of command type of order... but not here, and not in the christian church. William
Look back at your notes... your idea of authority is expressed in phrases like "turn such a one over to satan", and "call out" those who don't bow to your authority. Authority that needs fear and intimidation, IS NOT AUTHORITY. Oh yes, you can find that kind of authority in the way the gentiles rule --- but Jesus, THE ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY, says that IT MUST NOT BE SO AMONG US. I don't know how to say it any clearer. You have no understanding concerning your own self-described calling. It would be wise if you'd re-think the whole concept. William
Jeff, If communicating on this forum is causing you anger perhaps it would be better for you to take a break. Anger is a fruit of the flesh and I'm sure you know what we're supposed to do with fleshly fruit. You can stand by whatever you choose, but it's obvious that no one agrees with it or the manner in which you're saying it. Having been in the Air Force as a young man and seeing and understanding chains of command doesn't mean that that equates to how God has ordained the Body of Christ. Jesus is King, Lord, Head, and every other word that can be used to described His position over His Bride...the rest of us are unprofitable servants, even if He has called one to serve as an apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist, elder; or has given one a gift that stands out to others such as healing, miracles, or wisdom. Serving Him is the very least we can do based upon what He has freely given us. "For by Grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Hi Jeff, You said - (back at massage 11080) Quote: `Ask a 10 year old if they can do want they want "in church" without regard to the proper authorities. Its the same I have been saying all along.` Definitely in a church building there are rules & authorities people need to obey. Why? Because it is an organisation, a business & this is connected to the Government. People who go to such a public meeting choose to abide under such authorities that have been placed there. But you meet that same titled person down the street & they do not have any authority over you unless they have mentored you & there has been trust & recognition of gifting. The Apostle Paul said of his specific disciples - `For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? (1 Thess. 2: 19) And this is how Paul treated his disciples - `Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ. But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children. ...our labour...our toil; for labouring night & day,.... as you know how we exhorted, & comforted, & charged every one as a father does his own children.` (1 Thess. 2: 6 - 11) Thus you can see that there is a deep, caring & respectful relationship between Paul & his disciples at Thessalonica. True authority is through relationship and not a title in an organisation. Interesting to note that Jesus spurned all titles that men wanted to confer upon Him. Build relationships Jeff, & see how they would recognise you.
Apostle wrote on Tue, 29 April 2014 12:56 I hate that all this has both stressed and unfortunately angered me (for that has not bode well for the angerers) Wow, I just noticed this. I'm not surprised though, you been hinting at 'calling down fire' since you started posting. Here are some examples of veiled threats you've hinted at in this thread: Quote: ... the clear biblical principle that Apostles are high leadership in the church. Shall I come with a rod? Let everyone that loves not the Lord Jesus be accursed. Turn such a one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, etc. etc. etc. It's clear biblical teaching. Quote: Just know if you don't take the whole of scripture, you will be setting yourselves for trouble. (PS - I use the word "you" in general ei everybody, sense.) Thanks. PS - I knew this post was going to start trouble. Quote: God Himself can deal with the matter (or maybe they'll get turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh?). Mostly the Apostles are the chief elders. I wouldn't want to be a false bible teacher and disregard the warnings of an Apostle. Quote: It is my personal opinion as why I said "I like to think of ", but I believe it is based on fact and can be helpful to understand that God is calling people to come with authority that God Himself will verify. Quote: ... but there are so many religious who think they can just say and do what they want with out any oversight that can bring judgment. Quote: If people are not following scripture- Apostles, prophets, etc.- I may call them out and then we will continue to see if God responds. Quote: Accountability in what I'm trying to show is - that if you depart from the way of God of the scriptures and the Holy Spirit, that there are people in positions of authority in the church by virtue of God's appointment - that you may be called to account by. Think Ananias and Saphira (sp) for one. Paul gives many examples as well -as God will judge the situation. Quote: Maybe you want God to just let all the former FA ministers that now support Vineyard or other denominations just go around saying that baptism in Jesus name is not important or other such things without someone calling that and them out. You'll see how this goes it looks like.
Most all groups that I can think of in this context have authorities in them, including the military, including the church, including the public bus service, including public school, the hospital (where the staff is there to "serve", yet - Drs. Orders, etc. etc.), etc. etc.. I think it ridiculous that this is being over complicated. If you don't like it - forget it. If your like Jesus - your good.
So the chain here does not end with the Administrator? I've already been informed by a former member that she and others have been banned from here. In my dealing with administrators and moderators, they have a level of authority to deal with matters and they are afforded respect (sometimes respect). Just saying . Thanks. AS is the case in many groups - there are various authorities. It's easily understood in Experience.
I just got a message from a guy in a church, talking about that church -- "These are good people with proper authority and common sense.". Just a blessed confirmation of what I have been saying here. Proper authority and common sense - good point. Amen. I really had some good stuff about the plan of God, and the victory in it.
Apostle wrote on Wed, 30 April 2014 09:30 So the chain here does not end with the Administrator? I've already been informed by a former member that she and others have been banned from here. In my dealing with administrators and moderators, they have a level of authority to deal with matters and they are afforded respect (sometimes respect). Just saying . Thanks. AS is the case in many groups - there are various authorities. It's easily understood in Experience. Please, I ask that you read back over the thread. Have I threatened you? Have I intimidated you? Have I exercised *any* authority over you? Yes, I am the administrator of the forum (which by the way isn't a church). I can and do ban people from using the forum. (That, btw is not a veiled threat to you or anyone else.) As Marilyn pointed out, the examples that you are using (military, forum administration, etc.) have nothing to do with the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is *CHURCH* Government. Furthermore, one of the FIRST passages mentioned (and to my mind it sums up the subject of the discussion) was Mark 10:41-45. This passage (cf. Mat 20:25-28, Luke 22:25-27) CLEARLY and ABSOLUTELY keeps us from using examples of worldly authority (forum administration, military, worldly governments, organizational authority) to describe CHURCH GOVERNMENT. This is a forum and what we do here is discuss things. You brought up the topic and I've tried to discuss the topic. Maybe you felt threatened by someone asking questions, idunno, but this is what a forum is all about. Here is the way that I've perceived things so far... You make a statement (pronouncement) someone (me) asks you about your pronouncement. You make more pronouncements and in the process belittle the question with examples that Jesus unequivocally states to be irrelevant to the way it should be among us. You make veiled threats, which I assume are designed to keep us from questioning your statements. And I'm the one in the wrong here??? Please continue, you've been given the utmost respect in that you have complete freedom to make your point. I've threatened you with nothing, yet here we are, you, feeling threatened by a mere question... that you haven't answered, except by appealing to examples that have nothing to do with scriptures, things that have only to do with worldly authority (forbidden by Jesus Himself). William
Leaders in the church have the responsibility and authority to make the final decisions and policies and such on church matters. Just like it works in many groups. The concept of authority doesn't change just because it's church and I've given many examples of when the Apostles used that authority for judgment or policy. That Matthew verse is better understood more about attitude than execution. The 5 - fold ministry are God's leaders (with authority) in God's church. ITS CLEAR AND PLAIN IN THE BIBLE.
Matt verse - Was Jesus not Lord and King because He took on the form of a servant. Being a servant and having authority are not mutually exclusive, contrarily they are almost always together. Service and authority often go hand in hand. I don't live in a cave so I live and understand these such things. William used "bus driver" comment. I ride the bus every day, the bus driver provides a service - act up and you'll get thrown off the bus. Police - to serve and protect, but, break the law and see what happens. Service and authority don't have to conflict. They are often both in the position. Service and authority are both part of the 5 - fold ministry call. I'm walking in victory in Jesus - are you? A lot of people need deliverance, but are not getting it, because they are not fulfilling the Plan of God for their lives. The anointing breaks the yokes.
Apostle wrote on Wed, 30 April 2014 09:32 James - sometimes anger is justified. Rather than go on ad nauseam why don't we agree that we don't all agree. Just from reading The New Testament we know that there was Biblical authority established in the early church. To the church at Corinth Paul told them to exercise discipline concerning the man who was involved in fornication (I Corinthian 5). We know from this that someone had to carry out the instructions Paul sent(I know that they as an assembly in unity agreed to put the sinning member out, but I'd think the elders there initiated the action) But then having reread the chapter I'd conclude that they(the entire assembly) had to do some repenting themselves for allowing it to go on. Anyway, I think the problem is more so a lack of clear communication and maybe they 'way' it was said. One thing is clear (to me), Paul or none of the other Apostles(Peter, James, John) lorded over the church but rather served them. Paul often in his letters expressed how he loved them and with tears and prayers sought their growth and perfection in Christ. So if you're an apostle Jeff, as you say you are, try to emulate Paul or even better, Jesus. Heb.3:1 And walk in love of the brethren.
Thanks James. I was called on to explain my position and that I endeavored diligently to do. Thank you. Hebrews 3:2
Apostle wrote on Wed, 30 April 2014 13:26 Leaders in the church have the responsibility and authority to make the final decisions and policies and such on church matters. Just like it works in many groups. The concept of authority doesn't change just because it's church and I've given many examples of when the Apostles used that authority for judgment or policy. That Matthew verse is better understood more about attitude than execution. The 5 - fold ministry are God's leaders (with authority) in God's church. ITS CLEAR AND PLAIN IN THE BIBLE. Again with the apostles... tsk, tsk... but I'm through trying to get a straight answer concerning my question. Elders (whatever their gifts i.e. apostle, prophet, tongue-speaker, etc.) have authority concerning the welfare of the local church. (In most cases there will be more than one elder and they all should be of one mind) The elder's 'authority' is in the area of the purity of the doctrines taught and the purity of the church's witness to the community. Practically speaking this means they guard and watch over (oversee) the church of God. If a brother sins or if a brother teaches false doctrine, then those are issues that are under the elder's purview. They are essentially operating in a bishop/overseers type of position. Apostles, prophets, or teachers don't automatically fall into this narrowly defined group... they may, but the call to oversee the assembly, isn't inherent to their function (as apostles, prophets, teachers, etc..) i.e. There is NO chain of command that begins with the apostle and ends with the lowest member on this non-existant chain. Persons who are charged with being overseers will have people that have willingly (without coercion) chosen to follow their leadership. People are under no compulsion to follow these overseers if, for various reasons, their leadership becomes authoritarian in nature. An analogy might be the one presented in the husband and wife relationship. In this relationship you have a wife who freely decides to yoke herself to a man in order to be in a married state. She has freedom to choose who she decides to follow (just as every free-born-liberty-loving Christian is free to choose a local assembly). There are 'roles' in a marriage and when one chooses to marry, presumably they are marrying in order to fulfill one of the roles. A husband has been given a leadership role in the marriage and the wife chooses to 'submit' to that leadership. This is all well and good as long as the husband knows and understands his leadership role. He can't command or make his wife do anything. If he tries to dominate his wife in things that aren't covered in his job title, he may find himself dealing with someone who knows and understands her liberty in Christ and she may decide that his leadership has turned into some type of authoritarianism and refuse to obey. For instance, she may hate cold weather but the husband has just been transferred to Alaska. If she wants to keep the 'marriage' intact she will submit to his leadership and move to Alaska. He is the leader, she willingly contracted to be his wife, she should go. If she doesn't, then the marriage is in reality, no marriage at all. It's a sham. The extent of the husband's leadership isn't absolute however. He has no authority over her conscience at all. He can't make her do anything. (Why would he want to?) He can persuade her to follow by being a good example, but that's about it. If she follows his leadership, she should do it willingly -- because she values the marriage relationship and wants to keep that intact -- not by compulsion. The same kind of thing can be seen in a church situation. You attend the assembly that best suits your idea of a biblical church. All is well and good, and as long as you don't try to teach false doctrine or decide you want to live in open sin, then there will never be a time when the eldership's 'authority' will even be known or experienced. Their purview extends only to doctrinal purity and the church's witness to the community (if open sin is allowed to persist). Again, the only authority the eldership of the church has over another's life is to the extent of protecting the church. A church member smears the rest of the church, deal with it. A church member teaches false doctrine, deal with it. No authority is given to any individual to lord over any other individual--no matter what their title. In other words there isn't any chain of command for individuals in the Church of God. William
Hi William, I thought what you wrote was very good. Quite explanatory. (Might have to have a big discussion `bout Alaska, though. ) Now Jeff, You said on this thread & other - Quote: `A lot of people need deliverance, but are not getting it, because they are not fulfilling the Plan of God for their lives. The anointing breaks the yokes.` Quote: `I am convinced that most people need serious deliverance, but since they are not fulfilling the plan of God for their lives, they are not receiving the anointing to get delivered.` Do you realise that God tells us in His word what His plan is for us- `For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son....(Rom. 8: 29) How wonderful is that. There is nothing, no nothing greater than to be like Jesus. Thus we can expect, as James the Apostle, says `My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.....etc ` (James 1: 2 & 3) Thus we are by God`s word told that we are being made like Christ through many & varied trials & difficulties. Any thing else is for service for the building up of the Body of Christ. There are many people who use the `carrot,` of `you don`t know what God`s plan for your life is,` as though it`s some great earthly thing such as - fame, fortune, great earthly blessings, etc, etc. And because people are going through trials etc (to be made like Christ) they can get deceived by smooth talking people who keep this carrot continually before them, saying if you only did this & this, gave this & that, had my anointing placed upon you etc, etc. To be like Christ is God`s great desire for us & as the Apostle Paul says we press on towards that upward, high calling in Christ Jesus - to be not only where He is (in the realms of the 3rd heaven) but to be able to live there, thus needing to have a glorified body like Christ`s that can go through time & different realms. What a Saviour, what an inheritance. I will NEVER desire any earthly `mess of pottage.` But Jesus only.
Quote: (Might have to have a big discussion `bout Alaska, though.) You live in Australia for crying out loud... I would think anyplace on earth would be a step up!!!* <grin> *You know I'm kidding!
Hi William, My mother (promoted to glory) came from Scotland but she always said there is no place like AUSTRALIA. So there you have it. Trevor & I would like to visit Canada & Alaska, but not live there - toooooo cold. What have you heard about Australia that you would think that?
From "the land down under" ... anywhere else is a step up!
Hi William, I thought you meant that but wanted a plug for Aussie land. Also as the earth is a sphere & the Lord hangs it on nothing (Job 26: 7) who is to say who is down & who is up. The Lord of course.
What I know about Australia is pretty much capsulized in the song Living in "The Land Down Under" by Men at Work. I loved the song from the first time I heard it (even though it was pretty taboo in our circles!). Don't feel bad, nobody ever seems to get my jokes... I have to explain them even to my own family... it's pretty obvious I'll never replace Ed Sullivan. <sigh> Blessings, William
Hi William, Perhaps a smiley might give me a clue for your jokes. Thought you & others would like this version. Of course the fella is singing to the choir - other Aussies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNHZBSnEwdk
When You teach " You attend the assembly that best suits your idea of a biblical church.". That's not how I do. I use that criteria (biblical church) as a general framework of interest and prayer. Then based on the revelation of the Holy Spirit - then I attend this church or that church, go here or there, do this or that. That's how bible Christians walk - the sons of God are led by The Spirit of God. Intellect is for certain applications. Not for determining what to do - that's the Spirit's realm.
Marilyn, When you have demon’s (which, most do), you will not be like Yahshua. Ro.8:28 is one verse in a large book of verses. God has an end time plan – I know in part what it is (part of why He is sending me). If you want to get in on God's end-time plan –fine. If you want to see how you do without God’s 5 – fold ministers that He has appointed – you won’t do well. I am amazed that I must belabor these simple basic ideas in the life with Jesus and in His church. You people should listen to what I'm saying - I know what I'm talking about and live Victory in Jesus. Thanks.
Apostle wrote on Thu, 01 May 2014 12:38 When You teach " You attend the assembly that best suits your idea of a biblical church.". That's not how I do. I use that criteria (biblical church) as a general framework of interest and prayer. Then based on the revelation of the Holy Spirit - then I attend this church or that church, go here or there, do this or that. That's how bible Christians walk - the sons of God are led by The Spirit of God. Intellect is for certain applications. Not for determining what to do - that's the Spirit's realm. Funny you mention that! I'm a 'bible Christian' too, and the Holy Spirit works differently in my life! Certainly different than the criteria you describe for yourself, anyway. When He deals with me... he actually anoints my brain! (Wonderful and marvelous are His Ways!) He played a huge part in the initial renewal process and now, on a daily basis, he continually renews it... I feel blessed beyond measure! So far it has stood me well in all of the decisions I've had to make. To each his own, though... I guess. William
The plan of God that I'm referring to has to do with - What is God calling you to do with your life and then may involve such things as where you live and who you associate with and such. I don't tell people (so far) what that plan is (unless I was to know, I might). But I can help people to get on that general path that will help them to fulfill God's specific plan for their life.
Hi Jeff, Just to let you know concerning my beliefs & relationship with the 5-fold, ascension ministries. I am a 3rd generation Apostolic. I was brought up in the Apostolic denomination & believe in Christ`s ascension ministries. I have been privileged to be under the ministry of all such godly men who came from Wales, Scotland & England. My grandfather & uncle (who is still alive in his 90`s) not only were/are recognised apostles but also became the President of the movement (denomination) in Australia & New Zealand. I have been blessed to receive not only the Holy Spirit`s teaching & ministry through them but to know them personally as they have visited the family home & now my husband & my home here. So with over 60 years of experience in the 5-fold ministry it is a joy to me to see the revelation going out across the Body of Christ as His Holy Spirit is leading us into all the truth of Christ, His character & His Purposes.
Apostle wrote on Thu, 01 May 2014 12:50 Marilyn, When you have demon’s (which, most do), you will not be like Yahshua. Who is Yahshua? A quick google search yielded some information that indicated that it is used by the "sacred name" advocates, but not by anyone with any knowledge about the Hebrew language. Did you misspell it, or are you a part of the "sacred name" group? William
From time to time I find people who have claimed to be Apostles. I am always interested - what makes these people feel they are Apostles. The two I am presently thinking of - One thinks woman are 5 ministry offices, and one is into a concept called "mentoring" - both ideas I either disagree with or have serious questions about. I think some denominations vote or appoint "Apostles".
Who is Yahshua? I'd be interested in that as well. You used the term. Would you mind explaining.
Although I would think you guys already know who I'm referring to? Yahshua is just a adaptation of Joshua. Since there is no J sound in Hebrew. Some people use this version for salvation of the Lord, or salvation of Yah, Yah is salvation/deliverance. Joshua/Jesus. Works for me.
OK just checking!
In light of this discussion I thought this article on leadership in the church and having fancy titles was quit apropos. This was shared originally on several Christian sites. There seems to be a need for fancy titles in Christian circles these days: Quote: A Message to Rev. Dr. Apostle Grand Poobah by Lee Grady A Message to His Holy Highness the Worshipful Bishop Rev. Dr. Apostle Grand Poobah Jesus just wasn’t into titles. We shouldn’t be either. I am often asked if I have a title, and my answer doesn’t satisfy some people. I travel a lot, so I don’t consider myself a pastor. All kinds of labels have been pinned on me: Reverend, prophet, apostle … even bishop. Once I was introduced to a church as “Dr. Grady” and I almost crawled under my seat. I only have a college degree. There are no letters after my name. I tell people: “You can call me Lee. Or if you want to sound formal, you can say, ‘Brother Grady.’” “Jesus is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Son of David, the Prince of Peace and the Apostle of our Confession. Yet when He came into this world He laid aside His heavenly glory and took on the lowly name of Jesus.” Today it seems we’ve developed a title fetish. For a while everyone in charismatic circles was becoming a bishop (and some were installed into this office with rings, robes and funny-looking hats). Then the same guys with the pointy hats started calling themselves apostles. Then the prophets got jealous and started calling themselves apostles too! I knew one lady who, not to be outdone, required people to call her “Exalted Prophetess.” Now the latest fad is requiring church folks to address certain people as apostles. (As in, “When Apostle Holy Moly arrives, please only address him as, ‘Apostle,’ and then make sure he is seated in a private room while his two adjutants, wearing dark glasses, guard his door.”) They’ve even invented an elaborate theology to go along with this ridiculous rule. It suggests that you can’t receive the true anointing from a man of God if you don’t honor him with the right title. Sounds so very ooo-ooh spiritual to the naive. But it’s garbage. Jesus didn’t play this religious game, especially when he was around the Grand Poobahs of His day—the long-robed scribes and Pharisees. After accusing them of loving the best seats in the synagogues, He pointed out that they loved to be called “Rabbi” by men (see Matt. 23:7). Then He warned them: “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. … the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted” (v. 8-12, NASB). People have quibbled over these words for centuries, insisting that ecclesiastical titles are not the problem; pride is what Jesus was rebuking. I would agree that Jesus was going to the root sin. But He was also asking these title-crazy guys if they’d be willing to ditch their labels and act like normal people. When I was in China several years ago, I met some amazing leaders who had planted thousands of congregations. They had also spent a lot of time in jail for their faith, and they’d been beaten with iron rods for preaching the gospel. They were the bravest apostles I’ve ever met. But when I asked them if they used “apostle” as a title, one guy said: “We believe in those roles in the church. But we prefer to call each other ‘brother’ or ‘sister.’” That settled it for me. A few years later I met Iftakhar, a Pakistani apostle who has oversight of 900 churches. He also has two scars on his arm from gunshots fired by Muslim extremists who have put a price on his head. When I asked him how I should address him, he smiled and said, “Iftakhar.” If these two giants of the faith—and true apostles—don’t require to be addressed with titles, then Your Worshipful Grand Master Rev. Dr. Bishop Jones (who claims oversight of maybe four churches) shouldn’t wear his ministry role around his neck like a tacky neon name badge. If people can’t see the anointing on your life through your character, then don’t cheapen the gospel by wearing a title you don’t deserve. I’m not saying people shouldn’t use reverend, minister or even bishop to identify their roles in the church. But can we please dispense with the insecurity, and the childish “I’m more important than you” appellations, and get back to the simplicity of the gospel? Let’s get over ourselves! Jesus is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Son of David, the Prince of Peace and the Apostle of our Confession. Yet when He came into this world He laid aside His heavenly glory and took on the lowly name of Jesus. He wore no fancy robes. He demanded no titles. He did not come to be ministered to, but to minister. If we want to serve Him honorably, we must forsake our need for fame and cast our crowns at His feet. Gary
Hi Gary, So true, (the article) and here is some more that I received today. Equipping Without Subduing (#439) by Wayne I get asked a lot of questions about elders and the five-fold ministry gifts of Ephesians 4. We know how religion has captures these terms and used them for top-down managers that often abuse people wittingly or unwittingly by thinking they have the responsibility to command others in Jesus' name. But what are they in the new creation? Instead of managing people or systems, the real fulfillment of these gifts is to equip others to live freely in Jesus, not to subdue them with their own wisdom or agendas. Our ministry contracts take people down this road all the time by making it more about the gift and their need for a following, rather than serving those who want to know him. Wayne has a site called `the God journey.`
Marilyn, I believe if a "Man of God" has the anointing he does not have to say anything about titles. God's presence working through him will confirm to the believers that its genuine. Have you heard of the great Indonesian revival that took place in the sixties and early seventies? I saw on the map where your not to far from there. Anyway I was able to hear a brother preach that came from that revival it was the strongest anointing of the Spirit I had ever experienced, some of the things he shared was supernatural understanding of the Bible. If you know what I mean. His testimony was a blessing from the Lord, I believe his name was Mel Tari. Gary
I understand what you guys are saying but I do think if a man(women) stands in an office there is a place for saying it right out loud. Trying to be a grand poobah is one thing Just trying to fullfill a ministry is another. To put it in different terms . . . If someone is going around making a big deal out of being a minister apostle prophet etc that is one thing. But to simply try to fullfill ones ministry is another. I am of the opinion if a man has a true call to the apostolic/prophetic office he should (at the proper time) say so right out loud. Rev 2 says the sheep have the right to check fruit. Jesus said we will know the true and false by their fruit. Matt 6 I was taught that prophets/apostles don't carry calling cards. The point being they don't need to. I disagree entirely. Not using calling cards or business cards but making himself and his ministry known. I think that apostles and prophets are going to be coming on the world scene in large numbers and we have to be able to check fruit to know who is of the Lord and who isn't. To make it a little more personal and I'm not endorsing anyones ministry here. I did appreciate Bro. apostle coming here and making himself known the way he did. He said exactly what his office was what his purpose in coming here was and then offered a "little" fruit for checking. ie he told us how he got his ministry. Now I am not endorsing or criticizing apostle. I'm simply commenting on the issue of senior ministry in the church making themselves known.
Mark L wrote on Fri, 09 May 2014 20:11 I understand what you guys are saying but I do think if a man(women) stands in an office there is a place for saying it right out loud. Trying to be a grand poobah is one thing Just trying to fullfill a ministry is another. To put it in different terms . . . If someone is going around making a big deal out of being a minister apostle prophet etc that is one thing. But to simply try to fullfill ones ministry is another. I am of the opinion if a man has a true call to the apostolic/prophetic office he should (at the proper time) say so right out loud. Rev 2 says the sheep have the right to check fruit. Jesus said we will know the true and false by their fruit. Matt 6 I was taught that prophets/apostles don't carry calling cards. The point being they don't need to. I disagree entirely. Not using calling cards or business cards but making himself and his ministry known. I think that apostles and prophets are going to be coming on the world scene in large numbers and we have to be able to check fruit to know who is of the Lord and who isn't. To make it a little more personal and I'm not endorsing anyones ministry here. I did appreciate Bro. apostle coming here and making himself known the way he did. He said exactly what his office was what his purpose in coming here was and then offered a "little" fruit for checking. ie he told us how he got his ministry. Now I am not endorsing or criticizing apostle. I'm simply commenting on the issue of senior ministry in the church making themselves known. I agree with what your saying and I think Lee Grady was presenting the other side of the coin with people trying to impress the body. On the other hand I was remembering when someone a while back, came on here and was bashing things we were taught which "are found" in the Bible in principle, he never would reply to anyone's questions. Trying to explain away "now faith is the substance of things hoped for", and other teachings. William asked a number of questions concerning this issue of leadership and was never given any type of reply. The Apostle Paul wrote in his letters to the churches and was never vague but was willing to share before all. After all "the ministry" is there to help the body with wisdom and understanding and not try to avoid them. One more thing its called body ministry and the ground is always level at the foot of the cross. Were to honor and esteem the ministry but when they cannot answer simple questions there should be some concern. They are there to build up and edify the body of Christ, it's at least part of their calling. Hope this makes sense and is understood in the right spirit of things mentioned.