Hi All, I do appreciate everyone giving me an opportunity to present what I have been taught over 30 years ago. I understand others have been taught different on this subject (the Final Gentile World Rule/r) so bear with me while I approach it slowly & carefully. This is so we can all go together on what we see in the world today before we look into God`s word. Thus the first thing we need to do is establish who are the Super Powers in the world today. The world calls the Super Powers `The Big Four,` or the `Quartet of Power.` Do you know who they are? or guess who they are? Have a go. I`m sure most people would agree on some if not all. And it would be interesting to see what we all think.
My guess would be: America, Russia, China, and Israel. At one time these were the key players who had nuclear weapons. Now there are a number of nations who have nukes. Gary
China, Russia, America, and ...???the United Arab nations? European Federation? I really wonder if there are any 'super power' nations today as there were 30-40 years ago. I don't think America is anywhere close to the world power we were a generation ago. I think China financially owns America, both in the debt we owe them as well as the fact we buy so many goods from them...Out of balance import/export=eventual financial trouble...Borrow without being able to repay=financial disaster.
Quote: James Wrote: I think China financially owns America I don't know where you get this type of thinking here. Signed Ming Lu New Owner of this web site.
Hi Gary, come Ming Lu. (So loved that joke. You fellas are very quick witted & make my day.) I think people get confused with what the Government spending is & private/business wealth. The media has been big on `Henny Penny the sky is falling,` making people believe that America is about to collapse. However America`s wealth is much more than the debt of its government. This includes multi- national corporations, big businesses, private wealth, land, gold in reserves, etc, etc. Not to ignore the `elephant in the room,` the trillions of dollars mounting daily. But when you can print money from the Federal reserve, especially as the de-facto reserve currency of the world, then every one is tied to you. Another financial collapse is being prepared when they have the bail-ins,` in law. That means that people in the banks will be paying for the banks defaults. It`s a case of power, `the borrower is the servant of the lender.` `The rich rules over the poor, & the borrower becomes the lender`s slave.` (Proverbs 22: 7) It`s not the money they are after but the power over others. And as we look at the Super Powers in detail we will see what they are doing & what God says about them.
I also noted that you, Gary & James had China as a super power. Just holding a bunch of `IOU`s` is not really power for they are `trusting,` the USA to pay back, which they are doing, but obviously at a devalued rate over time. Also, Who is on China`s side? They are still quite a closed society in regard to the west trying to muscle in re; open banking, open markets. China has come a long way but it is only a Middle power with a very big population. So, without China who do you think are the 3 superpowers over the rest of the world? And why? This topic is important if we are to understand the scriptures that God has in relation to these.
Marilyn, What your saying here is correct, but let's not forget China boasts of a million man army. They also possess nuclear weapons along with long range missiles. I don't think I could not rule them out as a super power. But it depends on what you think a super power, "concerning a nation" consists of. By James stating they own part of America I don't think its just IOU's here. I heard a report that sense the economy is down many of the million dollar homes are not selling in California. Recently sells have went up dramatically and who do you think are buying all these homes, the Chinese of course. With all the money pouring into the country with manufacturers buying cheap goods that are made with slave labor, the Chinese now have a measure of wealth to invest. I recently read an article where the governor of Idaho wanted to sell a plot of land to the Chinese so they could build their own city that would be controlled by them. He said all the construction work would generate a lot of jobs for Americans. America is four trillion dollars in debt to the Chinese and they have over one trillion invested in this country. If we were to default on our payments I would think they would be unhappy campers. Anyway who do you think are the world super powers? Some say America is the only super power in the world at the present time. But what does everyone base this thinking on? Gary
Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 15 October 2013 04:31 I think people get confused with what the Government spending is & private/business wealth. The media has been big on `Henny Penny the sky is falling,` making people believe that America is about to collapse. However America`s wealth is much more than the debt of its government. This includes multi- national corporations, big businesses, private wealth, land, gold in reserves, etc, etc. I'm probably as 'confused' as anyone as to what's taking place in America and what I 'think' is just my opinion, but having said that I do think America is in the process of collapse. I'm not privy to insider info concerning China and what they own here or if it's 'just IOU's'. There is 'talk' that our national park lands are being used as collateral, but I don't know that to be true. Surely they (China) aren't dumb enough to just trust America to repay the monies without some/any tangible property as security. The American government doesn't keep it's word to it's own citizens, why would another country blindly trust them? I'm also aware of the vast wealth of private and publicly held corporations as well as many private citizens here in America,and yes, our 'poor' are rich compared to the poverty of many in other nations. But we have become a house of cards, primed for collaspe. The vast majority of Americans are deeply in debt, living above their means, paying huge interest rates on credit cards and living in houses they can't afford. Not to mention the number of people (10's of millions)living from week to week relying almost 100% on government 'programs' for health care, housing, food stamps, child care aid, financial handouts(guess I just did... mention it). Of coure this is 'my opinion', but I see the "american dream" as having became the "american nightmare", yet it's still being chased.
Hi Gary & James There is an interesting scripture in Matthew where the Lord is talking to His disciples concerning authority of the Gentiles. `Jesus said..."You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them & their great men exercise authority over them.` (Matt. 20: 25 NAS) So that would indicate that there are rulers & then those who are over them. And we see that that is the way the world operates, `lording it over, `with hierarchies of authority controlling those beneath. Not the servant heart in the (true)Body of Christ. Now James has encouraged us to `apply wisdom, understanding & discernment` that `God has given us through His word by His Holy Spirit,` & not to be naive concerning the world & its ways. So who are the `rulers of the Gentile nations?` THE GREAT RULERS / THE SUPER POWERS. 1. UK & America. 2. Russia. 3. The European Union. 4. The UN. The world calls these the `Big 4` or `Quartet of Power.` Now the UN is controlled by the other 3 so it is not in their league. These Super Powers have the mightiest armies and are the richest nations on earth. They come together as the G7, G8 & control the G20. The G7 has dominated the Political & Economic policy in the world for over two decades. They keep in the background, but are the main influence over the nations of the world especially through the UN & its activities. Each Super Power has specific control over a Federation of countries. 1. British Commonwealth & America. (Independent but associated) 2. Russia & the Commonwealth of Independent States. (CIS) 3. The European Union. (EU) I will enlarge on this soon.
Interesting to also see that this same group are involved with mediating the peace process in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. - UK, USA, European Union, Russia & UN. Tony Blair is the special Envoy of the group at the moment.
Marilyn, It looks like your definitely up on world affairs concerning the governments. I think this is very good what you have shared so far. In the news here, they want to take certain laws given by the UN and bypass our constitution, it has caused a bit of an uproar. I've only read a few articles concerning gun control. Very interesting for sure. Gary
Hi Gary, Thank you for your encouragement. Some people may think they have to follow every bit of news to be informed, but we don`t. Once we know the main `story line,` as it were from God`s Word, then we see it unfold in the news. Actually we are ahead of the news all the time. And I don`t just mean `the tribulation & the Anti-Christ,` for God has given us the details of the `lead up to the Global Government,` by these Super Powers & what part they each play. Thus to understand & appreciate God`s Word on this important topic we need to remind ourselves of the main points concerning these Super Powers. I`ll do each one & then leave space for comments or if people want to add more. The British Commonwealth & America. These are both Super Powers but they are interlinked on the world scene so we need to see their connection. The British Commonwealth. This initially was a great Empire - the British Empire, which at its height was the largest Empire in history, & for over a century was the foremost global power. By 1922 the British Empire held sway over 1/4 of the world`s population & 1/4 of the earth`s land mass. As a result, its political, linguistic & cultural legacy is widespread. At first the British Empire comprised of dominions, colonies, protectorates & other territories ruled or administered by the United Kingdom. However after the second World War as part of the larger decolonisation movement most of the territories of the British Empire were granted independence. After independence, many former colonies joined the (British) Commonwealth of nations, a free association of independent states. 16 Commonwealth nations share their head of state, Queen Elizabeth 11, as Commonwealth realms. The member states cooperate within a framework of common values & goals - promotion of democracy, human rights, good governance, the rule of law, individual liberty, egalitarian, free trade, multilateralism & world peace. These are some of the 54 sovereign states. Australia, Canada, India, New Zealand & South Africa.
Please continue sharing I can only read this information, I know a lot of its true but I do not know enough to comment on it. I cannot speak for others here, but I was never a student of world history. I do think it is good to know, and that is; "what is going on with other nations", and especially when it concerns Bible prophecy. Most of the media reports here are liberal and slanted. Gary
Hi Gary, I`m off to a friend`s place for the week-end so will only get a bit of time to post. So glad to share together.
Hi Gary & James & all, Here is the next part of the Super Powers. THE BRITISH COMMONWEALTH & AMERICA The World associates these two together & so does God`s word. AMERICA America (Wst Civ. part) originally came from the British Empire. It was a colony of Britain until its independence. (July the 4th 1776) However America continues not only to be an integral part of this powerful confederacy but it is the dominant part. We see this on the news, in their conferences & movements in the world. Many people look for America in God`s word trying to find what God says about this great country but they have looked in vain. Why is this so? It is because they look for the `great USA,` of today & not how God shows which is a power`s beginnings - as we said, America comes from Great Britain. There is more to say concerning America but it is better talked about in the context of `toward the Global Currency.` Thus for each Super Power, Confederacy, I am only doing the main points that will help us identify it in God`s word. Obviously there are many books & sites if one wants to get their detailed histories.
RUSSIA & THE CIS, COMMONWEALTH OF INDEPENDANT STATES. The next Super Power to arise on the world scene after the British Empire (& America) was the USSR - The United States of Soviet Russia. This came about after World War 1. Russia, bit by bit incorporated country after country into one monolithic dominion, behind what was known as the `iron curtain.` And many of us reading here would know of this. Then after years of oppression & domination this `iron curtain,` seemed to have come down. The Berlin wall coming down symbolised this to many people. Then President Gorbachev`s `Perestroika,` ie. restructing left the world amazed. The great USSR seemingly had transformed into an accumulation of nationalist republics. But Russia was still the dominant state with Slovac countries of Eastern Europe, together with various republics along Russian southern border. Free elections were held in all Slovac countries of Eastern Europe. They were monitored by internet observers from Western Europe & USA. The Time magazine reported that they were astounded by the result. In each case the party which gained over whelming `landslide,` control, had been members of the Communist party. They had merely changed their name. Soviet `stage managing,` had been very effective. They may not call themselves the USSR but each country still retains the same philosophy (Communism) ideology & militaristic ambitions. In the early `90`s, Russia was a disaster zone & Russian currency was nearly worthless. However once Vladimir Putin became president the Russian economy started to grow very rapidly. Today, Russia is an economic powerhouse that has an abundance of natural resources. Their debt is extremely small, they actually run a trade surplus every year, & they have the second most powerful military on the entire planet. Russia is back & today it is a more formidable adversary than it ever was at any point during the Cold War.
I was in Russia after the "Iron Curtain" came down. We traveled by bus the first time across the country, then the second time we took a train. Russia is a very large country, traveling by rail is the fastest transportation. The first time we saw much poverty they were way behind the times compared to America. The next trip we took there had been a total makeover in the country. The main government owned store in Moscow was called "Gum" pronounced "gomb" as in tomb. The second trip we took we were very surprised at the difference, the store looked like a modern mall in America. They had many American goods and small appliances that were converted to "dc" electricity. Believe me it was a drastic change from before. I can imagine now how it looks. BTW Marilyn you mentioned you were a school teacher, Did you teach World History by chance? If not you should of. Have a safe trip to your friends. Gary
Wow Gary, Fancy being over in Russia at that time. You were brave. I`ve read true stories about Russia but `going there,` well.... A friend went recently & she said, like you of all the changes. Thank you for the input from experience. I wasn`t a history teacher, but would you believe a primary school teacher ( 1 - 6 grade)having been trained especially for the preps (preparatory before 1) & 1 & 2. I`ve had to teach composite grades 3,4,5,6 all together which was a challenge & slower children also. My interest came as I studied God`s word & what He says about our world, past & present. It is good that you have seen first hand the changes in Russia for many people still think of it as backward & also that it is (Western) friendly. Did you go from West across Siberia to the Eastern side? Was it very cold? And were people friendly? And what did you eat? Different countries are very interesting. You are a well travelled man. Did your wife go also? PS. Further back you mentioned the UN & that is important. I`d like to write on that after this topic in relation to the `Architecture of Global Governance.` How they (the big THEY!!!) are building institutions for control.
Quote: I wasn`t a history teacher, but would you believe a primary school teacher ( 1 - 6 grade)having been trained especially for the preps (preparatory before 1) & 1 & 2. I`ve had to teach composite grades 3,4,5,6 all together which was a challenge & slower children also. It must be different over there compared to here. Most teachers in our area only teach one grade. For example, we have a close friend who has taught the third grade her whole life. My wife taught the five grade for a while. When I was younger we had two classes in one room and the teacher taught both classes. It was not until I was a freshman in high school that we had different teachers with different subjects. The seventh and eighth grade were the same teachers but the classes were separated. We were not to different then the Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer bunch. I assume you are familiar with known writers in America from the early days, like Mark Twain, etc. This may be a strange question but: Who do the Australians believe invented electricity? When I went to Russia my interpreter believed it was some Russian that I had never heard of. They had no knowledge of American history, as the government taught propaganda in the schools. Gary
Hi Gary & James, We are now going to look at the third Super Power or Power bloc to have arisen in our time. THE EUROPEAN UNION After WW2 Europe was devastated. The allies brought the main countries together & enabled them to establish a `community,` that transcended their boundaries. The six founder States, (France, Italy, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg) agreed on the goal; making 'war not only unthinkable but materially impossible'. They agreed about the means: putting the vital interests, namely coal and steel production, under a common High Authority, subject to common democratic and legal institutions. They agreed on the European rule of law and a new democratic procedure. This community was called the European Coal & Steel Community. Although is comprised of 6 states it only had 4 heads of state as 3 combined together -Belgium, Netherlands & Luxembourg becoming `Benelux.` It is important to note that the Allies (Britain Commonwealth & America)gave them (Europe) permission & power to come together to operate in the world after the war. Over time this ECSC community grew to become a greater Economic Community - the EEC, The European Economic Community or the European Common Market as it was commonly known. Then again later it has become, as we know it now as the European Union - The EU. The EU has developed a single market across borders through a standardised system of laws which apply to all member states. Passports have been abolished & EU policies aim to ensure free movement of people, goods, services & capital etc. In 1999 the monetary union was established in 17 of the 27 member states. They generate an estimated one quarter of the Global Economy. It is a very powerful Union that continues to grow Economically & Politically.
Marilyn, As your must realize there is not to much anyone can comment on world history and world events. But this information is good to know since you've researched this out. I know all of this plays a part that will affect everyone someday in time. I'm reading a good book called; "One World or none". It came out after the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima. It was published in 1946 before Israel became a nation. At the secular book store, I was surprised at all the books calling for a one world unity. The educated elite in the world want this as they think it will stop wars and famines, and will avoid a nuclear holocaust. Anyway just some thoughts here. Gary
Again so true Gary, Yes mankind would see the One World as the solution to wars, civil, ethnic, religious, class, & gender clashes. When my friends & I are talking to those in the world on this topic we often point out `Do you think they (the system) have your best interests at heart?` Obviously no. A very good starting point to help people get a realistic view of `the system.` Now I am moving towards a specific point with these `history lessons.` I will do a summary of the Super Powers/Power Blocs in the morning, then prepare for the scriptures that God has shown us leading to the Global Government. This is forming now as we know & it is important to know how it is coming together so we are not deceived. There is so much conjecture around at the moment. Is the Syrian war leading to the Russian war, or Armageddon? So `expects` are saying. All this does is create fear & take people away from focussing on the Lord & reaching out to others. Many people get all fired up & spout off, then they are shown up when it does not come to pass. So I will present to you soon what I have been taught from the scriptures about God`s lead up to the Global Government. I had to do the history so that people would understand what God is saying, for so much information comes at us that often we can find it hard to get to the `bottom line.` Thank you for the `techno` points. Much appreciated.
SUMMARY: Super Powers ...1900............WW1............WW2...................WW 3... British Empire......USSR...........European Union.........?.... 1. BRITISH EMPIRE & AMERICA British Empire – imperialistically conquering, dominating & colonising. Ruled by a Monarch - King/Queen. British Commonwealth - A change – the different colonies given self rule but still co-exist as a group. In Political language – freedom, peace, equality. America – came from the British Empire but became totally independent, yet continues to be a dominant & integral part of this powerful confederacy. 2. UNITED STATES OF SOVIET RUSSIA. USSR – Devoured country after country into one monolithic dominion. Russia & Commonwealth of Independent States - `Perestroika,` restructuring. Elections held but they are not `free.` Each country retains the same philosophy, ideology & militaristic ambitions. 3. THE EUROPEAN UNION. European Coal & Steel Community – 4 Heads of State, multiplicity of authority. Each foundation country was defeated & powerless at the end of WW 2. However authority as independent nations was granted by favour of the Allies. The European Economic Community – The Common Market. The European Union – Many countries desire to join this great Union. The lastest economic world crisis is causing many countries to restructure their finance & become European dependent. (Political & Economic)
Hi Gary, James & all, Thank you for being so patient & working through the Super Powers with me. Now it is time to look at what God says concerning them. The relevant scriptures have been misinterpreted by many & thus needs careful examination. Previously people have thought that Daniel Ch. 7 has been referring to past World Rulers but as we shall see they are the Super Powers of our time. IMPORTANT POINTS 1. CONTEMPORARY POWERS The prophet Daniel who lived in Babylon had a vision of 4 beasts. He was told that these were powers that would arise in the future, at the time when God would set up His own kingdom on earth. `So he told me ...the interpretation of these things: “These great (powerful)beasts, which are four in number, are four kings (representing kingdoms v. 23) who WILL ARISE from the earth.”` (Dan. 7: 16 & 17) As the kingdom of Babylon had already arisen & was on the decline, this scripture does not refer to it but to future powers. 2. OPERATING AT THE SAME TIME These 4 powers emerge one at a time & continue to operate contemporaneously. The final power `devours & tramples,` controlling the other powers. `It devoured & crushed, & trampled down the remainder with its feet;` (Dan. 7: 7) This final power then becomes the last Gentile World Ruler. It rules over the other powers till God deals with it. The other powers have their dominion taken away but are given an extension of time. `I kept looking until the beast was slain,....As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12) FOUR SUPER POWERS In Daniel`s vision (Ch.7) he saw 4 winds of heaven stirring up the Great Sea. These are 4 spirits of the heavens which go forth & operate in the realm of the predominant ruling powers of the world. `Daniel spoke saying, “I saw in my vision by night, & behold, The four winds (spirits) of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other.”` (Dan. 7: 2 & 3) Hebrew word `Rauwach,` is spirit, wind. From these emerge the 4 Super Powers arising in the world today. Three have arisen & one is still to have its full manifestation. `These great beasts, which are four, are four kings which shall arise out of the earth.` (Dan. 7: 17 K.J.) These 4 power blocs or Confederacies all have their own sphere of political power. As we study each one it becomes quite clear who they are & what area they control. Then as we watch & study world events we will see how these `main players,` are putting together their global plan. Yet, we can be assured that God is overall, He has foretold these events in His word & He has the Time Frame for the Judgement of the nations. 1. LION – The British Commonwealth & America. `The first (beast) was like a lion, & had eagle`s wings.` (Dan. 7: 4) Here we have a super power like a Lion with Eagle`s wings. The Lion is the symbol of Royal Sovereignty. (King/Queen) The Eagle is the symbol of Imperial Power. (Empire) The British Empire controlled one-fifth of the world in the 19th Century. `...its wings were plucked off;.... & a man`s heart was given to it.` (Dan. 7: 4) At first the British Empire was a `powerful beast,` imperialistically conquering, dominating & colonising. Then we see a remarkable change. The different colonies are each given the right to rule themselves, but still coexist as a group. In political language, co-existing in freedom, peace & equality. America (Eagle)who originally came from the `Lion,` the British Empire, became totally independent, yet continues to be a dominant & integral part of this powerful confederacy. 2. BEAR – The Russian Confederacy. `And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear.` (Dan. 7: 5) The bear was the national symbol of the Soviets. They were the next super power to arise in the world. They were called the U.S.S.R. – the United States of Soviet Russia. `It was raised up on one side, & had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said to it: “Arise, devour much flesh.”` (Dan. 7: 5) It certainly `devoured` country after country, incorporating them into one monolithic dominion, behind the ` iron curtain.` In 1991 there was an uprising in the U.S.S.R. & the former Soviet peoples then separated into their different countries. This change was called by the Russians as `Perestroika,` meaning restructuring. Elections are held but they are not `free,` as each country still retains the same philosophy, (Communism) ideology & militaristic ambitions. The Russian Republic is the dominant force in the Confederacy of nations from the Slovav countries of Eastern Europe to the various Republics along Russia`s southern border. 3. LEOPARD – The European Union. `After this I looked, & there was another (beast), like a leopard,....` (Dan. 7: 6) The Leopard symbol has a direct connection to Europe, as they were used on their banners & shields in wars. `The beast also had four heads,.... (Dan. 7: 6) The four heads on this beast denote a multiplicity of authority or government who are united in a common purpose. Six countries of Europe agreed to a commercial unity of purpose in a common market. However at the time of inauguration, three of these countries, combined their representation & voting, into one entity called `Benelux.` 4 Heads - France, Germany, Italy & Benelux - (Belgium, Netherlands & Luxembourg) `Dominion was given to it.` (Dan. 7: 6) Each of the foundation countries were defeated & powerless at the conclusion of World War 2. However authority as independent nations was granted by favour of the Allies. Many countries desire to join the European Union & are working toward being eligible. The latest economic world crisis will cause many countries to restructure their finance & become European dependent. We can look at the Final Gentile World Power perhaps after you have had time to study the above.
There are many other scriptures concerning these Super Powers in God`s Word telling us .... 1. How God sends mighty angels to bring them to judgement. 2. How they are operating at the beginning of the tribulation. 3. How they form a Global Government together & what part each power plays. However we can`t build truth upon errors. When people do not know or understand Daniel 7 correctly as the Super Powers then all they have is conjecture & opinions. God is not the author of confusion but has told us simply & straight forward that those powers in Daniel 7 were for a future time. If we don`t heed God`s Word or discern correctly then we are leaving ourselves open to all sorts of error. The quote below comes from `Prophecy News Watch,` is typical of the conjectures & opinions that are clouding people`s minds, developing `itching ears,` causing fear & keeping people from discerning the truth & discipling others correctly. Quote: Many Bible prophecy experts speculate that the next major event on God's timetable is the battle of Psalm 83. Will this important prophetic battle be connected to the upcoming blood moon timeframe of 2014/15? .... With events in Egypt and Syria still simmering near a boil, many wonder if today's current events will lead to this important battle in Israel's near future. And will this battle be the trigger for Ezekiel 38? Will these events be tied into the predicted destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 17? As I wrote in the `Syrian,` thread Psalm 83 is the 6 day war that has already happened in 1967. The combatants are written in God`s word & details of the war can be looked at in Wikipedia. It is not rocket science but people love to speculate & have their opinions rather than read God`s word properly. When I learnt to fly small aircraft we were taught to read the map & then look to the earth for signs of a railway, road, etc To look at the ground & then try & fit those into a map leads you into all sorts of error. This is what these people are doing. Look a war in the Middle East! It must be this or that or the next thing. And as far as it being the Russian war, well God is the one who `puts hooks in Russia`s jaws,` & brings them down to the mountains of Israel. But God is not going to do that until the first purpose, `the Body of Christ,` is completed & come to `the unity of the Faith.` Also Russia, although rearming & building up its army is definitely not ready for such a great army as God`s word tells us. And finally, Syria is not even in the Russian war. ...the expects speculate,... ....Will this.... ....many wonder.... ....And will this battle.... ....Will these events be tied..... `But refuse foolish & ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. And the Lord`s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,.`(2 Tim. 2: 23) Let us refuse speculations & seek to know God`s word correctly.
I recommend caution as far as becoming overconfident that any given end time theory is accurate for sure. There is always another way to view the prophetic verses. For example this link http://www.bibleprophecyaswritten.com/prophecyarticles/danie l7sbeastsstrictlyfuture.html deals in a different way with the "future or not" issue with respect to Daniel's 4 beasts. It is their objection #1 near the top of the page. << no recommendation of that web site intended >> If you lock into a detailed end time theory that later is proven false then you are faced with a dilema in that what you assumed was God teaching you was not. Remember - All you have is a working theory. ------------------------ as far as : Quote: God is not the author of confusion . . . Quote: `But refuse foolish & ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. And the Lord`s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,.`(2 Tim. 2: 23) Let us refuse speculations & seek to know God`s word correctly. This reminds me of a certain faux-fold minister ( not HEF ) I knew decades ago. Anything different from his opinion was "causing confusion" or ignorant speculation. It was how he manipulated people. Jman ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 299 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
Quote: JMan wrote: I recommend caution as far as becoming overconfident that any given end time theory is accurate for sure. I agree 100%!! But with that in mind we have to at least consider: Why did God put all of this in the Bible? We know He was not just trying to fill pages. I believe the Lord is showing us this for a reason, but with every new teaching coming down the pike we have to discern what is of God and what is not, like the Bereans did. Gary
Quote: Marilyn Wrote: As I wrote in the `Syrian,` thread Psalm 83 is the 6 day war that has already happened in 1967. The combatants are written in God`s word & details of the war can be looked at in Wikipedia. It is not rocket science but people love to speculate & have their opinions rather than read God`s word properly. Now who is speculating. Psalm 83 (A psalm of Asaph): says nothing about the six day war. How do you come up with this conclusion? I will say that I did not pay attention to the fact that Asaph was a prophet until I ran across it recently in the scriptures. But I don't see how you are saying this scripture in Psalm 83 is the 6 day war. 1 Chronicles 25:2 Of the sons of Asaph: Zaccur, Joseph, Nethaniah, and Asharelah; the sons of Asaph were under the direction of Asaph, who prophesied according to the order of the king. Jesus even quotes him and mentions he is a prophet. Gary
Marilyn Crow wrote on Thu, 24 October 2013 18:22 Hi Gary, James & all, Thank you for being so patient & working through the Super Powers with me. Now it is time to look at what God says concerning them. The relevant scriptures have been misinterpreted by many & thus needs careful examination. Previously people have thought that Daniel Ch. 7 has been referring to past World Rulers but as we shall see they are the Super Powers of our time. Hi Marilyn! I'd like to jump right in at this point and see if I can provide another perspective. I don't oftentimes find myself defending someones "interpretation" but since you present your "interpretation" by saying that you'd like to "look at what God says concerning them," and then proceed to give your view, let me play the part of the folks who have "misinterpreted" Daniel 7. First let me state that these interpreters have a GREAT argument when they equate Dan 7 with past world rulers. That isn't saying that you don't present a FAIR, or even GOOD case, for your interpretation but so far you haven't presented the kind of intricate details that that would cause us to dismiss a view that by all standards has thoroughly examined each of the visions/dreams in Daniel and provided a solid viewpoint. I haven't had the time to look at the link that Jman provided yet but I suspect that it presents the reasons for believing that Dan 7 refers to the world governments that have already been mention --Babylon, Medo-Persa, Greece, and Rome. Even a cursory comparison to the other visions/dreams in Daniel show this connection. It seems to me the lynch-pin of your presentation depends on the word "shall" in Dan 7:17 and from that you assume that all that Daniel saw in this vision/dream must be taken as future events for him. Your interpretation may not need to make that assumption. (Look at what is recorded in Rev 1:1 --The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: --Rev 1:1 KJV -- and compare that with Rev 1:19 --Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; --Rev 1:19 KJV. Visions and dreams often include past events even if the main point of the prophecy is future.) Don't let what I've said hinder you from making your points, I've enjoyed reading the different perspectives, but, as Jman and others have pointed out, what you've shared is just another interpretation as far as we are concerned and not necessarily the absolute final word on the matter! Blessings, William
Hi Gary, You said, Quote: Psalm 83 (A psalm of Asaph): says nothing about the six day war. How do you come up with this conclusion? I`m glad you asked that question as it gives us an opportunity to look into God`s word further. Psalm 83. V. 1 - 5 We see the enemies of God & Israel are conspiring together saying `Come let us wipe them out as a nation.` In 1967 different countries around Israel took counsel together with one accord to destroy Israel from being a nation. For the first time in history these countries forgot their differences. They formed a confederacy to declare a `Jehud` - holy war to wipe the name of Israel from remembrance. These actual words were frequently broadcast over Radio Cairo & published in world newspapers. Unknowingly they were practically quoting directly from prophecy given 25 centuries ago. (Ps. 83: 4) V. 6 - 8 Even the participants were accurately delineated - under ancient names. ANCIENT NAME.....................MODERN NAME Edom, Moab, Ammon................Jordan Hagarenes, Amalek, Philistines...Egypt Ishmaelites......................Arabia Gebal, Tyre......................Lebanon Assyria..........................Syria, Iraq V. 9 - 18 And what was the outcome? `Fill their faces with dishonour,....let them be ashamed & dismayed...let them be humiliated.....` (V. 16 & 17) Quote: Speaking three weeks after the war ended, as he accepted an honorary degree from Hebrew University, Yitzhak Rabin gave his reasoning behind the success of Israel: Our airmen, who struck the enemies' planes so accurately that no one in the world understands how it was done and people seek technological explanations or secret weapons; our armoured troops who beat the enemy even when their equipment was inferior to his; our soldiers in all other branches... who overcame our enemies everywhere, despite the latter's superior numbers and fortifications-all these revealed not only coolness and courage in the battle but...an understanding that only their personal stand against the greatest dangers would achieve victory for their country and for their families, and that if victory was not theirs the alternative was annihilation.[163] Within six days, Israel had won a decisive land war. Israeli forces had taken control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria. Israel deployed 100,000 troops with under a 1,000 killed. The surrounding nations warring against Israel had 240,000 troops with over 20,000 killed. 1 in 20 a David & Goliath situation. How great is our God, who also watches over Israel.
Hi Jman, I can appreciate your caution, but if you will look carefully I am addressing the `speculations, ` & not just throwing words around. Then you can address again what I say but also for you not to just throw words around but specifically say what is wrong & why. Anyone can say they don`t agree but it is work to have to ... `Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15) I said - Quote: `But refuse foolish & ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. And the Lord`s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,.`(2 Tim. 2: 23) Let us refuse speculations & seek to know God`s word correctly. You said - Quote: This reminds me of a certain faux-fold minister ( not HEF ) I knew decades ago. Anything different from his opinion was "causing confusion" or ignorant speculation. It was how he manipulated people. I am not interested in opinions as I also see others here are not too. Thus we are presenting what we have been taught & are working through to see the truth. I do have my beliefs but as many others here, our main desire is to know the truth for that is all that will stand & enable us to stand in the evil day because He is the truth. Who would want to hold on to a wrong belief? Not me that`s for sure. But we are expecting from each other a good accounting for what we believe & not just a cheap shot as `this reminds me......` & `how he manipulated people.` That is unsubstantiated.
Hi William, Glad you`ve joined the frey as it were. Discussion is good as it gives the opportunity for more detail, explanations, etc to come out. Also I would expect you all to need to discuss & need more information. I actually respect you all for discussing & listening to what I have to say over a period of time & not just sweeping it & me under the table as it were. You said - Quote: `First let me state that these interpreters have a GREAT argument when they equate Dan 7 with past world rulers. That isn't saying that you don't present a FAIR, or even GOOD case, for your interpretation but so far you haven't presented the kind of intricate details that that would cause us to dismiss a view that by all standards has thoroughly examined each of the visions/dreams in Daniel and provided a solid viewpoint.` I`ll answer one point then ask you for a point. Quote: It seems to me the lynch-pin of your presentation depends on the word "shall" Actually I presented quite a few points as to why Dan. 7 is future. I`ll present them again in a comparison format. Daniel 2. (correction from Rev. - Dan.) 1. There are 5 groups. 2. Each are World Rulers. 3. Each rule came after the other & overcame the previous one. 4. The 5th Ruler (feet & toes, the divided kingdom) will be dealt with by God & all the other kingdoms have fallen. Daniel 7. (correction from Rev. - Dan.) 1. There are 4 beasts / powers. 2. Each are powerful but do not rule the world. 3. Each power arises one at a time but are operating at the same time. 4. The last power is dealt with by God but the other powers are allowed to continue for an appointed time. They are not annihilated. The world recognises these super powers & calls them the Quartet of power. As I have pointed out they control the G7, G8, G20 & the UN. Each have come up after a major world war & they all operate over the world in our time. The world also recognises their `animal` emblems. The British Commonwealth - Lion. America - Eagle/ Russia - Bear. European Union - Leopard. O`Neubecker, Director of the ~International Academy of Heraldry,` & the foremost authority in this field, explains - "The appearance of a lion as a heraldic beast by no means indicates that it forms part of the native fauna of that country: its use comes from the significance attributed to it. The lion is the symbol of Royal Sovereignty & the eagle the symbol of Imperial Power" God knew these powers before they arose for He is the one that `herds` them together for judgment. God, who planned all time periods & controls all Rulers & super powers, will He not tell His people? (Joel 3: 2) `Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secrets counsel to His servant the prophets.` (Amos 3: 7) If you do not understand these super powers then as I said all that is left is conjecture, speculation & opinions on what is happening in the world today. Now to asking for your point. You said - Quote: `First let me state that these interpreters have a GREAT argument when they equate Dan 7 with past world rulers.` I would like (as many here would) to hear what this GREAT argument is? Thank you William. Appreciate the discussion, Marilyn.
Hi Marilyn, Quote: V. 1 - 5 We see the enemies of God & Israel are conspiring together saying `Come let us wipe them out as a nation.` Just to say in a quick note. I am very familiar with this account, having a read a number of books concerning this time period. The biography of "Moshe Dayan", documents a lot of this information. The Arab nations had millions of dollars of sophisticated weapons supplied by the Russians. England controlled Palestine at the time and made it illegal for any Jews to possess weapons. They only had second rate rifles and many of the weapons were badly in need of repair. When the war broke out it was a Divine miracle that they even survived this battle. I would highly recommend this book for anyone who enjoys history concerning Israel. Lord Bless, Gary
Hi Gary, The biography of `Moshe Dayan` sounds interesting. I love to read true stories especially concerning Israel. I read one concerning his wife which also included a lot of history & of the kibbutz etc. You mentioned a few posts back concerning Asaph. I hadn`t realised he was quoted in the Gospels so you had me looking hard. So is Matthew 13: 35 the scripture you are referring to, when Matthew says - All these things Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables, & He was not talking to them without a parable, so that what was spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world." (Ps. 78:2) I now appreciate Asaph more, thank you.
Marilyn Crow wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 17:16 Hi Gary, The biography of `Moshe Dayan` sounds interesting. I love to read true stories especially concerning Israel. I read one concerning his wife which also included a lot of history & of the kibbutz etc. You mentioned a few posts back concerning Asaph. I hadn`t realised he was quoted in the Gospels so you had me looking hard. So is Matthew 13: 35 the scripture you are referring to, when Matthew says - All these things Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables, & He was not talking to them without a parable, so that what was spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world." (Ps. 78:2) I now appreciate Asaph more, thank you. Yes that is the scripture concerning Asaph. I went back to try and find it myself and it took awhile to find where it was. I was looking for his name in the New Testament, then realized Jesus was just quoting from a prophet. I appreciate seeing this as well, now when I read psalms it will give me a different perspective. Good job of finding that scripture. Gary
Marilyn Crow wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 02:18 I would like (as many here would) to hear what this GREAT argument is? Thank you William. Appreciate the discussion, Marilyn. I would love to be able to present it thoroughly but I don't have the kind of time that would do it justice. Can we just stipulate that this position is the common dispensational interpretation? Otherwise I'll just present it verse by verse and that will take considerable time. Google the traditional interpretation and focus on anything that seems to be contradictory and we can focus on that particular point. I realize that your interpretation might consider it *all* contradictory and that will be a problem, but please don't make me present the whole interpretation just because I called it GREAT! <grin> Blessings, William
Quote: The world also recognises their `animal` emblems. The British Commonwealth - Lion. America - Eagle/ Russia - Bear. European Union - Leopard. I'll at least try to deal with this one aspect of the interpretation by saying that there are valid reasons that these symbols could also represent the traditional world kingdoms. Babylon - Lion with eagle wings Medo-Persia - Bear Greece - Leopard Rome - Dreadful beast with iron teeth and ten horns Portraying Babylon as the lion with eagle wings is not unreasonable, it actually is quite representative of the nature of the kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar. The mighty lion dominating all of the world's earthy kingdoms and the wings of the great eagle signifying the majesty and complete coverage of this empire. The lion as the king of the beasts on land, the eagle as its counterpart in the air. Apparently there are representations of Babylon's winged lions on display in museums today. There are references to the lion associated with Babylon in Jeremiah as well. http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_Antichris t_lion_wings The second kingdom Medo-Persia is represented as a bear raised up on one side. This fits in nicely in that Persia was more powerful than the Medes in strength. The three ribs in its teeth can be associated with the three main conquests of Cyrus (the Persian king) i.e. Lydia, Egypt, and Babylon. The third kingdom, Greece represented as the Leopard with four wings can portray the swiftness of the assent of Alexander the Great to world dominion. His kingdom being divided among his four generals upon his early death. The wings could also represent his conquests of Asia Minor, Greece, Persia and Egypt in his whirlwind rise to world dominion. The fourth kingdom, the dreadful beast, interpreted as Rome fits the pattern of the Roman Empire as it dominated the world in its rise to power. The division of the empire into ten kingdoms is not unlike Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Dan 2 (the ten toes). Daniel 2 taken with Daniel 7 shows some remarkable similarities if we take both of the prophecies as representing the four world kingdoms, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. It has been said that in Nebuchadnezzar's dream the image is presented as a man while in Daniel's vision/dream the kingdoms are represented as beasts. From the Gentile perspective it would seem more natural that these kingdoms be presented as a man since it highlights the apex of man's dominion over the earth but from Daniel's perspective it would be more appropriate to represent these kingdoms as the dumb beasts that they are, lumbering along as dumb animals believing that they were the kings of their own destiny. Quote: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 2Pe 2:12 KJV But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Jude 1:10 KJV Anyway, this is merely a shallow overview that can be gleaned by any simple google search. Tons of intricate details can be found supporting the interpretation which is the reason I called it a "great" interpretation as opposed to merely a "fair" or "good" interpretation. I'm not married to it, mind you, but so far it is the best explanation that I've heard. Blessings, William
Hi William, Thank you for replying. Had a good laugh at when you said - Quote: `but please don't make me present the whole interpretation just because I called it GREAT! <grin> I can just see myself twisting your arm back. Yeah, right. I thought you would give a `link,` or suggestion in regards to the topic. But I wanted you to be able to show how you saw the various points I brought up. So I was pleased when you said - Quote: `and focus on anything that seems to be contradictory and we can focus on that particular point. These are the points I brought up & it would be good to hear what you think concerning these specifics. Quote: Actually I presented quite a few points as to why Rev. 7 is future. I`ll present them again in a comparison format. Daniel 2. (Correction from Rev. - Dan.) 1. There are 5 groups. 2. Each are World Rulers. 3. Each rule came after the other & overcame the previous one. 4. The 5th Ruler (feet & toes, the divided kingdom) will be dealt with by God & all the other kingdoms have fallen. Daniel 7. (Correction from Rev. - Dan.) 1. There are 4 beasts / powers. 2. Each are powerful but do not rule the world. 3. Each power arises one at a time but are operating at the same time. 4. The last power is dealt with by God but the other powers are allowed to continue for an appointed time. They are not annihilated. The world recognises these super powers & calls them the Quartet of power. As I have pointed out they control the G7, G8, G20 & the UN. Each have come up after a major world war & they all operate over the world in our time. I`m not just here to `play pin the tail on the donkey,` & I know neither are you. We are called of God to `handle accurately the word of truth,` & as my brother in Christ if you see where I am misguided then in `speaking the truth in love,` we are `able to teach...` from the word. If you are wrong then the same, or if both are wrong then we need to continue asking & seeking of the Lord`s Holy Spirit so that we will be guided into all the truth of Christ, His character & His purposes.
Hi William, I thought I`d comment on your link for others are reading & need to learn to `handle accurately the word of truth` as well. ERROR: MAN`S OPINION (link) Quote: `Daniel 7 identifies the Papacy as the Antichrist. Throughout history, others have also stated that papal Rome is the Antichrist.` TRUTH: GOD`S WORD `I saw a beast....then horns...ten diadems...the dragon ...gave his authority to the beast.` (Rev. 13: 1 -4) This is clearly identifiable as Political power. I saw another beast ....makes the earth & those who dwell in it worship the first beast.....he performs great signs....he provides that no one should be able to buy or sell...` (Rev. 13: 11 - 17) This is also clear that this leader (known as the false prophet) is a Religious Economist who is the master of the miraculous. Clearly Dan. 7 does not identify the pope as the Anti-Christ. ERROR: MAN` OPINION.(link) Quote: The Antichrist power has to fulfill all of the characteristics given in the Bible. It cannot meet only some of them. Thirteen times in the above articles, we see how the papal system qualifies for all the identifying points of the little horn power of Daniel 7, as sad and shocking as it may seem. TRUTH: GOD`S WORD. `the king will do as he pleases, & will exalt & magnify himself....the king of the North.....he will come to his end, & no one will help him.` (Dan. 11: 36 - 45 (This is the area of Assyria - Iraq, Syria & Jordan) So will the Lord of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion.....& the Assyrian will fall by a sword not of man...` (Isaiah 31: 4 - (The Assyrian from Assyria - Iraq, Syria & Jordan) `the king of Babylon.....The Lord of Hosts has sworn saying, "Surely just as I have planned, so it will stand, to break Assyria in My land & I will trample him on My mountains... this is the plan devised against the whole earth....(Isaiah 14: 4, 24 - 27) Quote: `The Antichrist power has to fulfill all of the characteristics given in the Bible. Clearly this writer has not known all the other scriptures in God`s word relating to the Anti-Christ & is thus swayed by his own theory of the papacy being the Anti-Christ. ERROR: MAN`S OPINION. (link) Quote: `Following the sequence of Daniel 2, the terrible beast of Daniel 7 represents Rome. Although divided into ten through the ten horns, it is still Rome that rules until the end of time. The iron does not change; it is just separated by clay.` TRUTH: GOD`S WORD. `You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom....after you there will arise another kingdom.....then another third kingdom which will rule over the earth.....` (Dan. 2: 37 - 39) Each kingdom God represents by a part of the body - the head, the chest & arms, the belly & thighs, the legs, the feet & toes. God then adds the symbols of the metals to describe the lessening of power - Gold, silver, bronze, iron, iron & clay. These God tells us refer to the `inferior` quality of each kingdom to the one before it. `after you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you....` (Dan. 2: 39) To suggest that the word `iron,` refers to Rome in both kingdoms is not logical or even correct English. For example if I said to you that that red flower is a red rose, & then I asked you what flower is red & white? It could be any flower & you would need more details to know which one. Same as if I said to you that that iron kingdom is the iron/inferior Rome & then I asked you what kingdom is iron & clay? Well it could be any kingdom without more details. The word `iron` is only describing the quality of the kingdom & not the name itself & more details are necessary. ERROR: MAN`S OPINION. - that Rome must be the Final Ruler as the woman sits on 7 mountains. TRUTH: GOD`S WORD. `The 7 heads are 7 mountains on which the woman sits, & they are 7 kings......`(Rev. 17: 9 & 10) Clearly these mountains are symbolic of kings, leaders who rule. What I can see has happened over time is that centuries ago there was a great divide between the Protestants & the Catholics. So some people developed a theory to back up their speculations. Roman Empire, - iron,- iron & clay, 7 hills / Rome - Pope - Anti-Christ. But it does not line up with God`s word & it certainly is not being fulfilled in any way today.
Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 20:57 Hi William, I thought I`d comment on your link for others are reading & need to learn to `handle accurately the word of truth` as well. ERROR: MAN`S OPINION (link) Quote: `Daniel 7 identifies the Papacy as the Antichrist. Throughout history, others have also stated that papal Rome is the Antichrist.` ?? Did I link to, or say some where, that the pope was the antichrist? Where did that come from? Was it somewhere else on the site that dealt with the lion with wings representing Babylon? Quote: TRUTH: GOD`S WORD `I saw a beast....then horns...ten diadems...the dragon ...gave his authority to the beast.` (Rev. 13: 1 -4) This is clearly identifiable as Political power. This illustrates the problem I'm having with your presentation. Before (in an earlier note) you stated that the standard traditional interpretation (cf -http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/kad/dan007.htm)* of Dan 7 was wrong and then you proceeded to give us your interpretation (one of many that has been floating around for a couple of thousand years!) and equate it as being GOD'S ABSOLUTE TRUTH. In the above quote you do the same thing. "TRUTH: GOD'S WORD..." and then say that the verse is "...clearly identifiable as a Political power." If I wanted to argue with you (which I don't) I think that I could make a pretty good case for this being more religious than political what with all the "worship" going on in the following verses. Now I'm all for a person being confident in his/her interpretations but surely you don't believe that there cannot be other valid interpretations on some of this stuff, do you? The only reason I jumped into the thread was to make that point. I'm not going to be able to prove to you that the standard traditional interpretation is absolutely the only way to interpret Dan 7, but by the same token you're not going to do so well proving your interpretation, either. Both of them are just that -- MAN'S INTERPRETATION of Biblical Prophecy, not MAN'S INTERPRETATION vs GOD'S INTERPRETATION. So far I believe that the empirical evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of the traditional interpretation, but you haven't finished and I may learn a thing or two if you continue to post... but please, proceed with the knowledge that I have had a lifetime of people claiming to be speaking for God (proved wrong later) and I'm a bit touchy on that subject. Having said that, I'd also like to say that if you want to continue to present your stuff in that manner, go ahead... others might not be so sensitive. I'll try to keep my nose from being bent out of shape and stop reading so as to keep my blood pressure down! <grin> Blessings, William * I don't necessarily agree with all of the conclusions presented in the commentary link but there is a pretty fair representation of many of the viewpoints and the traditional view is more or less highlighted by these commentators. Personally I tend to agree more with the dispensationalists on the thousand-year reign of Christ, but since the subject at hand is the four world kingdoms I would agree with their defense of that particular aspect.
Hi William, I certainly would not want to cause you to have high blood pressure!!!!! And yes it was from that `link,` that you gave that I got all those quotes (cut & paste) as I said. Now you said - Quote: `In the above quote you do the same thing. "TRUTH: GOD'S WORD..." and then say that the verse is "...clearly identifiable as a Political power." If I wanted to argue with you (which I don't) I think that I could make a pretty good case for this being more religious than political what with all the "worship" going on in the following verses. Yes it is Political power (horns, diadems/crowns) - the Final Gentile world system & the leader of it. The False Prophet is the leader of the Economic system & also the religious system. If you`d note from God`s word the `scarlet woman,` the religious system, rides on the beast`s back. She eventually gets `burned` & destroyed by the Political system (of 10 kings). So you see she, the religious aspect is not the Political beast. `I will tell you the mystery of the woman, & of the beast that carries her....` `the ten horns which you saw, & the beast, these will hate the harlot & will make her desolate & naked, & will eat her flesh & will burn her up with fire. (Rev. 17: 7, 16) Then again you say - Quote: `Now I'm all for a person being confident in his/her interpretations but surely you don't believe that there cannot be other valid interpretations on some of this stuff, do you? As I said above if this teaching I was taught has error, or some parts error, then I would certainly be pleased for you or any others to point it out. Our desire is to know God`s truth. Sorry if I come over - over confident or with a wrong attitude, (maybe the teacher in me) But I do find God`s word clear on these matters. And yet you have not given me one point that shows me any error. I have given you the specifics differences (I have been taught)of Rev.2 & Rev. 7 & to have an honest conversation you need to address those. Quote: `So far I believe that the empirical evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of the traditional interpretation.. Again you are generalising & not addressing the specifics in scripture. Well I could go on & on & say how great the teaching was I had & you could go on & on the same, but we need to `handle accurately God`s word.` Quote: `....but you haven't finished and I may learn a thing or two if you continue to post... but please, proceed with the knowledge that I have had a lifetime of people claiming to be speaking for God (proved wrong later) and I'm a bit touchy on that subject. Thank you for that opening William & I will try to remember to say `this is what I have been taught...` Does that help? I still would like you to address those points I made as that is the main scriptural issue. I`ll post them again so you know exactly what I mean. Daniel 2. (Correction from Rev. - Dan.) 1. There are 5 groups. 2. Each are World Rulers. 3. Each rule came after the other & overcame the previous one. 4. The 5th Ruler (feet & toes, the divided kingdom) will be dealt with by God & all the other kingdoms have fallen. Daniel 7. (Correction from Rev. - Dan.) 1. There are 4 beasts / powers. 2. Each are powerful but do not rule the world. 3. Each power arises one at a time but are operating at the same time. 4. The last power is dealt with by God but the other powers are allowed to continue for an appointed time. They are not annihilated. The world recognises these super powers & calls them the Quartet of power. As I have pointed out they control the G7, G8, G20 & the UN. Each have come up after a major world war & they all operate over the world in our time.
Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 00:00 Hi William, I certainly would not want to cause you to have high blood pressure!!!!! And yes it was from that `link,` that you gave that I got all those quotes (cut & paste) as I said. No. The link I gave said none of the things you 'cut and pasted.' Quote: Now you said - Quote: `In the above quote you do the same thing. "TRUTH: GOD'S WORD..." and then say that the verse is "...clearly identifiable as a Political power." If I wanted to argue with you (which I don't) I think that I could make a pretty good case for this being more religious than political what with all the "worship" going on in the following verses. Yes it is Political power (horns, diadems/crowns) - the Final Gentile world system & the leader of it. The False Prophet is the leader of the Economic system & also the religious system. If you`d note from God`s word the `scarlet woman,` the religious system, rides on the beast`s back. She eventually gets `burned` & destroyed by the Political system (of 10 kings). So you see she, the religious aspect is not the Political beast. No. It's more religious (or spiritual if you prefer) and heavy on the worship and signs. Clear as a bell. Quote: `I will tell you the mystery of the woman, & of the beast that carries her....` `the ten horns which you saw, & the beast, these will hate the harlot & will make her desolate & naked, & will eat her flesh & will burn her up with fire. (Rev. 17: 7, 16) Then again you say - Quote: `Now I'm all for a person being confident in his/her interpretations but surely you don't believe that there cannot be other valid interpretations on some of this stuff, do you? As I said above if this teaching I was taught has error, or some parts error, then I would certainly be pleased for you or any others to point it out. Our desire is to know God`s truth. Sorry if I come over - over confident or with a wrong attitude, (maybe the teacher in me) But I do find God`s word clear on these matters. And yet you have not given me one point that shows me any error. I have given you the specifics differences (I have been taught)of Rev.2 & Rev. 7 & to have an honest conversation you need to address those. An "interpretation" oftentimes contains both truth and error at the same time... otherwise we should call it "doctrine" and if it is "doctrine" (which is the way you are presenting your "interpretation") then it can be dealt with in a "truth" or "error" sort of way. You interpret the sky as having a reddish hue and I say it has a pinkish hue. Who is in error and who has the truth? Maybe 99% of the population see it as a red and only a handful see pink... does this make the pinkos in error? You see the iron/clay of Daniel 2 as a fifth kingdom, I see it as an extension of the forth, so who is in error here? Interpretation is always going to have an element of subjectivity so to keep referring to your interpretation in terms of error and truth is going to force us out of the realm of interpretation and into the realm of doctrine. Once we find ourselves in the realm of doctrine then we can talk "truth" and "error" because a doctrinal truth should not have the elements of subjectivity that apply to the interpretive realm. Well then, you might say, isn't all doctrine a matter of interpretation? And then I'd be stumped and need to label myself an agnostic! But seriously, can you not see what I'm trying to convey? Beyond offering an opinion or two on the interpretation of Dan 2 and Dan 7 (which for some strange reason you keep referring to them as Revelation 2 and Revelation 7 --an obvious "error," by the way... <grin>) I really don't want to say that the traditional interpretation is absolute truth anymore than I want to say that your interpretation is absolutely false. Yet you are asking me to spend an inordinate amount of time proving that the sky has a pinkish hue. I don't have the inclination to do that. As I said earlier, and as Jman and Gary hinted at, the only reason I jumped into this thread is to make a distinction between objective truth and subjective interpretation. I've already said on more than one occasion that I'm enjoying the different perspective that you are bringing into the discussion but I'm hating the way you are presenting it. You present your opinion as gospel fact. In my book, if one disagrees with a gospel fact then they are deceived (which is exactly what you seem to be implying about anyone who disagrees with your take.) Quote: Quote: `So far I believe that the empirical evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of the traditional interpretation.. Again you are generalising & not addressing the specifics in scripture. Well I could go on & on & say how great the teaching was I had & you could go on & on the same, but we need to `handle accurately God`s word.` The "teaching" as you are calling it, is an "interpretation." I have opinions, you have opinions, and the way to 'handle accurately God's word' when it comes to opinions about God's word is to do it the way I've done it and not to do it the way you are doing it. Quote: I still would like you to address those points I made as that is the main scriptural issue. I`ll post them again so you know exactly what I mean. Revelation 2. 1. There are 5 groups. 2. Each are World Rulers. 3. Each rule came after the other & overcame the previous one. 4. The 5th Ruler (feet & toes, the divided kingdom) will be dealt with by God & all the other kingdoms have fallen. Revelation 7. 1. There are 4 beasts / powers. 2. Each are powerful but do not rule the world. 3. Each power arises one at a time but are operating at the same time. 4. The last power is dealt with by God but the other powers are allowed to continue for an appointed time. They are not annihilated. Fact: Revelation 2 and Revelation 7 have little to do with Daniel 2 and Daniel 7... you are in error here. Opinion: Daniel 2 deals with FOUR not FIVE worldly kingdoms and the fifth kingdom is not a kingdom of the world but Christ's kingdom. Blessings, William
Hi William, Thank you for pointing out the obvious error I had of Rev. instead of Daniel. I have been studying & doing notes from Rev. so sorry for the slip. Also the quotes are from your link are under the page `Identifying the Anti-Christ,` on that site. Thank you for addressing Daniel 2 in relation to the groups. The difficulty with putting the last two groups together is that there are centuries between the groups & the only thing left of the Roman Empire is Satan`s continuing power over unregenerate mankind. And with that influence, power He can influence any group to come to the fore. So a short summary of the two `teachings.` (They are taught as a teaching & not a suggestion or a maybe interpretation. They also effect people`s lives & how they see the world. Dan. 7. Historic View. (& its similar view of other scriptures) 1. Gives no explanation of contemporary powers that rule the world today. 2. Can`t seem to find America is in the Bible. 3. No reality of the Revised Roman Empire on the world scene. 4. This lack of understanding of what God has said about the contemporary powers has led to much confusion & speculation on the Middle Eastern conflicts. Are they leading to the Russian war or Armageddon, is this Ps. 83 etc etc? Dan. 7. Contemporary View. (& its similar view of other scriptures) 1. Gives a clear picture of the contemporary powers ruling the world today & God`s foreknowledge & plan for them. 2. Gives a clear picture of the origin of America. (Wst) 3. Gives a clear picture of the Final Gentile World Ruler. 4. Gives a clear picture of the Middle Eastern conflicts at the moment.
I am wondering could it be that the feet and toes being part iron and part clay has something to do with the fact that the Old Roman Empire has an influence within the ten nations? There has to be some connection here. If the city of Babylon is being resurrected why not the Roman Empire? To be honest this is making my head spin. Gary
Marylin, How about saying it this way. <<< No one can be sure of what many of the symbols in Scripture mean. >>> One can only give a working theory/interpretation - which is truly a fun passtime as it relates to the end times. It is fun to look at the traditional - Baylon, Med-Persia,Greece,Rome - theory. Your theory is fun also. ------------------------------------- As far as my own theory . . . My personal opinion is that the end times are probably far off in the future - maybe even 100's of years. I do not see Matt 24:33 as fulfilled yet ( notice the word "all" in Matt 24:33 ) so it is unproven to me that the last generation has yet come. By the way - interpreting the fig tree parable ( Matt 24:32 ) as the rebirth of Isreal in 1947 is a dogmatic interpretation of another vague symbol. ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 303 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
Hi Gary, Yes it can be very confusing. The bottom line for all prophecy as we know is, `Is it coming to pass,` or `Has it come to pass.` And that we will all see as we journey together, whether it is the Revived Roman Empire or Islam over the Super Powers. We live in very exciting times & God will make it clear to us as we keep watch for Him & what He is doing in the earth. I encourage you to keep assessing each view & as I bring in further scriptures it will, I hope, become clearer, one way or the other. God bless.
Hi Jman, Thanks for the chat. About the symbols in scripture I have always been taught, & I believe that scripture explains its own symbols. If God has left it up to us, well there are as many interpretations as there are people & even more for some people may have many views. That`s confusing. God says what He means. I can see why people believe the Historic view of the 4 beasts, mainly because it puts the prophecy behind us & then the other parts of the end-times as way in the future - Anti-Christ, tribulation, etc. I note even you said that about your belief. What I have been taught (over 30 years ago) confronts us with the reality of now & we find that hard. We are so conditioned to believing our Western countries are the good guys & then this view puts them right up there with the other world powers that become the Global Government. So, as I said to Gary above, we`ll all be journeying through this together - whether here on earth or in glory. I appreciate everyone giving me room to express this view as I know very few people would on their site. You are a gracious lot & especially William as it is his site.
Hi Gary, Just replying to your thought on `influence.` We know these scriptures but it`s good to remind ourselves of them. `We know that ....the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.` (1 John 5: 19) `...the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.` (Eph. 2: 2) ..the devil...showed Him (Christ) all the kingdoms of the world, & their glory;....All these I will give to You, if...` (Matt. 4: 8 & 9) That influence is Satan, the Serpent, the Devil, the Dragon. These four names describe the enemy in relation to his fourfold subtle strategy. But thanks be to Christ who has overcome the enemy in all areas. Christ in the sovereignty of His Lordship overthrows the great dragon, who is the destroyer. Christ in the sufficiency of His Heirship overcomes the old serpent who is the deluder. Christ in the supremacy of Hid Mediatorship overpowers the devil who is the devourer. Christ in the superiority of His Judgeship overrules Satan who is the deceiver. Don`t we just love to lift up our Lord & Saviour.
Quote: Marilyn wrote: I appreciate everyone giving me room to express this view as I know very few people would on their site. You are a gracious lot & especially William as it is his site. I don't see anything wrong at this point with your view. I am sure you realize we have been grounded in the other view, but who is to say we are totally right. I can see the Arab nations with all their oil wealth having a large influence in this whole picture concerning the end times. All the wealth of the world is pouring into the Middle east and not into the EU. Gary
Hi Gary, We are actually here at the same time for a change. I appreciated your encouragement & your comments about where the money is going. I thought I would prepare some notes on the world system so we can all share what we see happening. We all have different information which would help us to see the Global Government forming in our midst.
Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 15:44 We are so conditioned to believing our Western countries are the good guys & then this view puts them right up there with the other world powers that become the Global Government. Hi Marilyn, yep there are 3 of us on at one time for a change. I just wanted to comment on the observation that 'we are so conditioned concerning Western countries being good guys'. I don't think many of us consider this nation (America) to be 'good' concerning moral or spiritual matters...at least I don't.
Hi James, Glad you said that, about the condition of the nation. But somehow people (in general & Christians as well)think that if we had better leadership of the nation we`d be the `good guys,` again, not realising that all of the world lies under the sway of the evil one.
Hi Gary & James, Just an interesting thought. As I`ve said I was taught this view over 30 years ago & those who received this a long time before that. So that would be about the early part of last century. Can you imagine the flack they would have received for even saying that the Arab nations would be a power in the end-times. Especially when most of the Arabs were mainly poor, desert dwellers in tents. A bit different now as at least we can see the Arab power arising & has the potential to become a great confederacy when their civil wars end.
Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 17:40 Hi Gary & James, Just an interesting thought. As I`ve said I was taught this view over 30 years ago & those who received this a long time before that. So that would be about the early part of last century. Can you imagine the flack they would have received for even saying that the Arab nations would be a power in the end-times. Especially when most of the Arabs were mainly poor, desert dwellers in tents. A bit different now as at least we can see the Arab power arising & has the potential to become a great confederacy when their civil wars end. Here is the way I see this whole thing. The legs are of iron and we know this represents the Roman empire. The feet and toes show iron mixed with clay. The scriptures do not spell out who exactly this is. We do know for a fact that: There will we ten nations arise and that the little horn who is the Antichrist or one world leader will come on the scene. It does not matter if its the Roman empire or the Arab nations or the women's basket weaving class from the Ural mountains. The important thing is that the scriptures are trying to show, is that, it will be "ten" nations with "one" world ruler. Its not who or God would of made it clearer. In Daniel 7, he states; Quote: 19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows. The emphasis is on the one who speaks pompous words and makes war with the saints. If you notice also this one world leader will make war with the saints for 3 1/2 years, I believe speaking of the woman in Revelations that is shown going through the first half of the tribulation and the dragon makes war with her. Because we see the "iron" mixed with the clay it does indicate that it could be the old Roman empire, who the clay is we do not know. Gary
Hi Gary, So true about the `ten toes,` (Dan.2: 41) & the `ten horns,` (Dan. 7: 7) And I agree with you, as others do also, when you summarized it saying .... Quote: `it will be "ten" nations with "one" world ruler.` Now as we know, it has to line up with all scriptures on that topic. Thus we need to incorporate these scriptures God has given so that we do know the specifics & that we are not speculating or guessing. The King of the North. `the king will do as he pleases, & will exalt & magnify himself....the king of the North.....he will come to his end, & no one will help him.` (Dan. 11: 36 - 45 (This is the area of Assyria - Iraq, Syria & Jordan) The Assyrian. So will the Lord of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion.....& the Assyrian will fall by a sword not of man...` (Isaiah 31: 4 - (The Assyrian from Assyria - Iraq, Syria & Jordan) The King of Babylon. `the king of Babylon.....The Lord of Hosts has sworn saying, "Surely just as I have planned, so it will stand, to break Assyria in My land & I will trample him on My mountains... this is the plan devised against the whole earth....(Isaiah 14: 4, 24 - 27) The King of the North (old Assyrian Empire -Iraq, Syria & Jordan) The Assyrian (Iraq, Syria & Jordan) The King of Babylon - (in Iraq) So there we see God has delineated the Region, the Nationality & the country the Anti-Christ comes from. Interesting to note as I`ve mentioned before that there are 10 groups in the Middle East that I see will eventually join together to form this 10 Nation Confederation. 3 - Syria, Iraq & Jordan. 7 - Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain,United Arab Emirates, Oman, Saudi Arabia, & Yemen. (the Gulf Cooperation Council - GCC) This could potentially form up to be the 3 & 7 of Dan. 7:8. `While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, & three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; (Dan: 7:8) Thus you can see why I am watching with interest how this civil war in Syria will work out. If, as I have been taught, that these 3 countries (Syria, Iraq & Jordan)will come together (formerly the old Ayssrian empire) then it would be very interesting. Also to see who was mediating behind the scenes to bring this about. The `plot thickens,` as they say. Watch that space!
Hi Marilyn, By stating all of this in my last post, I'm also saying your making a pretty good case for the ten nations being Arab nations. If we had more scriptures showing that this is what the outcome will be. I think there are some prophecies concerning Ishmael but I don't remember if they are future events. I am leaning towards the fact that it is not going to be the EU that make up the ten nations. They already have 27 nations as members and I cannot see them going back to 10. But the important thing we can all agree on, is that it will be ten nations with one world ruler. Just some more thoughts here. Gary
Hi Gary, Yes, so true that is something we can all agree on. And the rest is joining the dots as we go along. Just thought -in relation to Europe, as we study further together (from this teaching)we will see what they say about this power bloc - its place in the Global Government & then perhaps the `puzzle,` will start to take shape in the details.
Marilyn Crow wrote on Thu, 31 October 2013 15:45 Hi Gary, Yes, so true that is something we can all agree on. And the rest is joining the dots as we go along. Just thought -in relation to Europe, as we study further together (from this teaching)we will see what they say about this power bloc - its place in the Global Government & then perhaps the `puzzle,` will start to take shape in the details. I am interested in hearing this and I think you have at least done your homework on world events. I have never heard all of this tied together concerning the nations of today. Gary
Quote: Thus you can see why I am watching with interest how this civil war in Syria will work out. If, as I have been taught, that these 3 countries (Syria, Iraq & Jordan)will come together (formerly the old Ayssrian empire) then it would be very interesting. Also to see who was mediating behind the scenes to bring this about. Israel recently bombed Syria. They said they were supplying weapons to Hezbollah. Also the article went on to say, That Syria has conformed to the world's demands and secured and destroyed their chemical weapons. I don't put a lot of confidence in the American media because it is generally biased against Israel. They can be attacked by Arab terror groups for months on end and the first time they retaliate the media act like it is horrible. Here is the prophecy concerning Ishmael: Quote: 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” 13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” God promised to make a nation out Ishmael who are the present day Arabs and like the prophecy says he will be like a wild man and his hand will be against every man. Quote: 17 And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18 Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.” Its very possible these Arab nations will be the ten nations spoken of in Daniel. At this point I am less confident it is the EU but God can change world events so rapidly. Gary
I believe Ishmael dwells in The White House. Yes, quite the game changer for America!
Very Humorous there!
Thank God He is in control and has His purposes!
Hi Gary & Gillyann, Thanks for the scripture that really enlarges on them, the Arab nations. It is as we know `brother against brother,` & only God can heal relationship differences, hurts etc through the cross.
This is interesting; Afghanistan is now agreeing to sign a pact with Iran. Who would of ever thought this would take place. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/12/08/afghanistan-iran-pla n-cooperation-pact/ Gary