http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0923/Why-it- matters-that-Jews-are-standing-on-the-Temple-Mount I just read this article from the Christian Science Monitor (I know, I know...) that highlights the oft-repeated end-time phrase "...this generation will not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Luk 21:32 This verse has been used to assert that the generation that saw Jerusalem re-taken by Israel in 1967 would not pass away before seeing the return of Jesus. [Luk 21:24, 32 KJV] 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ... 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Well, it looks like Jerusalem is still being "trodden down" by the Gentiles and the "Six-Day War" might not actually be a fulfillment of the words of Jesus in Luke 21:24. Tons of articles have been written on just what constitutes a generation, 20 years? 40? 80? Even if the end of the "times of the Gentiles" could be dated from 1967 (which in my opinion is dubious) isn't it possible that it could be referring to the last living survivor of that generation? This might not be as far off as it might first appear because we have an OT example that follows the same pattern of a predicted judgement taking place upon the death of the last surviving member of a generation -- Methuselah. [Gen 5:27 KJV] 27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. According to some his name was predictive of the flood. "Methuselah" (meaning "Man of the dart/spear", or alternatively "his death shall bring judgment") it has been determined, died on the very day that the flood began. Anyway, back to the notion that 1967 marked the end of "times of the Gentiles..." I'm not sure that Jerusalem isn't still being trodden down by the Gentiles. I mean the reality is that while Israel is technically in control of Jerusalem they are far from actually controlling the city. Thoughts? Blessings, William
william wrote on Tue, 24 September 2013 11:04 "...this generation will not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Luk 21:32 This verse has been used to assert that the generation that saw Jerusalem re-taken by Israel in 1967 would not pass away before seeing the return of Jesus. [Luk 21:24, 32 KJV] 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ... 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Well, it looks like Jerusalem is still being "trodden down" by the Gentiles and the "Six-Day War" might not actually be a fulfillment of the words of Jesus in Luke 21:24. Tons of articles have been written on just what constitutes a generation, 20 years? 40? 80? Anyway, back to the notion that 1967 marked the end of "times of the Gentiles..." I'm not sure that Jerusalem isn't still being trodden down by the Gentiles. I mean the reality is that while Israel is technically in control of Jerusalem they are far from actually controlling the city. Thoughts? Blessings, William I've certainly 'adjusted' my timetable for The Lord's return. 30 years ago I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that Jesus was returning 'in my lifetime', as also I believe Brother Freeman thought until the day he passed. Now? I live with hope and expectancy because as Paul said, either way we will spend eternity with Him. As to who controls Jerusalem and the temple mount now and when Israel will gain control, and when the 'times of the gentiles will be fulfilled'...that is yet to play out. But it's going to happen, it's just a question of whether or not we'll be here to see it or not. I look forward to The New Jerusalem, I look forward to God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven.
Quote: I just read this article from the Christian Science Monitor You mean like "Christian Science" as in cult, or is this paper some other group here. I can see what your saying, but coming from the Christian Science group I would have a struggle with any of their interpretations of future events. Gary
It's just news... they are reporting news, not interpreting anything in the article. The only thing that was relevant from the article was that it highlighted the fact that the Jews were not as "in control" as some might think. Blessings, William
Interesting William. Just a thought about `Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.` (Luke 21: 24) In Revelation 11: 2 it says, `And leave out the court which is outside the temple, & do not measure it, for it has been given to the Nations (Gentiles); & they will tread underfoot the holy city for 42 months.`
Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 25 September 2013 01:30 Interesting William. Just a thought about `Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.` (Luke 21: 24) In Revelation 11: 2 it says, `And leave out the court which is outside the temple, & do not measure it, for it has been given to the Nations (Gentiles); & they will tread underfoot the holy city for 42 months.` This will mean the gentiles will be still there until part of the tribulation. This is very interesting as I think most think they will leave before the tribulation. William, Never looked into their publication. But your right I thought what was shared was interesting. I think a lot of things we heard when we were younger is what the church believed at the turn of the century with so many world events taking place many tried to fit Bible prophecy into what was taking place. Gary
Quote: Anyway, back to the notion that 1967 marked the end of "times of the Gentiles..." I'm not sure that Jerusalem isn't still being trodden down by the Gentiles. I mean the reality is that while Israel is technically in control of Jerusalem they are far from actually controlling the city. Thoughts? Blessings, William By the fact the Muslims have their shrine setting where the Holy of Holies "was", shows the problem the Israelites have with the gentiles. We may see a lot of changes in these end times from the common views that everyone held. I think this has happened a lot in history. Many thought Hitler was the Anti-Christ. Gary
Gary, Not sure what you mean by that? `This will mean the gentiles will be still there until part of the tribulation. This is very interesting as I think most think they will leave before the tribulation.` Do you think that `Gentiles,` means `Gentile` as in Christians? whereas it means `Gentiles` - Nations of the world.
I have never seen scripture for a general rapture of the Body of Christ before tribulation. I know HEF did not teach that either. He taught the Manchild, Revelation 12, being raptured "at some point." The Mancild would then comeback at some point to help Christians during Tribulation. He taught this in part because OT prophecy speaks of a purification need for Christians. Sure makes sense with the state the church is in today. Also, Rev speaks of the martyrs of Tribulation before the Throne. It sure would be handy for the sleeping, money hungry, pagan church system of today to get out of any pain of trial. I just don't see it in scripture context or hypothetically.
Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 25 September 2013 04:12 Gary, Not sure what you mean by that? `This will mean the gentiles will be still there until part of the tribulation. This is very interesting as I think most think they will leave before the tribulation.` Do you think that `Gentiles,` means `Gentile` as in Christians? whereas it means `Gentiles` - Nations of the world. I think Gentiles are anyone who is not Jewish. There is Jews and there are Gentiles. I could be wrong here but this is what I always thought it meant. Gary
James, Do you remember if the Day of the Lord series was on a post here. I thought we listened to them off of this board. Do you remember that? If so, where is the link I cannot find it? Gary
GWB wrote on Wed, 25 September 2013 14:38 I have never seen scripture for a general rapture of the Body of Christ before tribulation. I know HEF did not teach that either. He taught the Manchild, Revelation 12, being raptured "at some point." The Mancild would then comeback at some point to help Christians during Tribulation. He taught this in part because OT prophecy speaks of a purification need for Christians. Sure makes sense with the state the church is in today. Also, Rev speaks of the martyrs of Tribulation before the Throne. It sure would be handy for the sleeping, money hungry, pagan church system of today to get out of any pain of trial. I just don't see it in scripture context or hypothetically. Gordon Lindsay taught this as well, this doctrine or teaching has been around for some time. Gary
Hi GWB, Thought I`d write a few notes on your comments, re: `I have never seen scripture for a general rapture of the body of Christ before the tribulation.` You probably know these but may not have put them together. 1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18. - caught up together with all the believers, past & present, before ` Thess. 5: 1 - 11. - the Day of the Lord, the wrath of God poured out, `you are not in darkness that the Day should overtake you like a thief;.....for God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.` And 1 Thess. 1: 10 `and to wait for His Son....who delivers us from the wrath to come.` And Rev. 3: 10 `Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.` Many people say that that is just `escapism.` But when the Body of Christ comes to maturity (Eph. 4: 13) then it is ready for its eternal setting & purpose. As the Apostles Peter & Paul encourage us through the Holy Spirit - - our hope is in heaven, (Col. 1: 5) - our inheritance is in heaven, (1 peter 1: 4) - our citizenship is in heaven. (Phil. 3: 4) We are a most blessed people if we continue to `hold fast to the Head,` our Lord Jesus Christ. Blessings.
Marilyn, Thank you for taking the time to pull out these scriptures. I will definitely take a look at them all together.
Also wanted to ask you GWB, is that Gillylynne? Have just listened to some of the music section & think that it may be Gillyann? And have you finished the transcripts of your note taking under Hobart Freeman? I noticed in one of your past comments that you said you were busy doing that. I appreciate what you have done on this site & am working through a lot of the other information. Very good.
My name is Gillyann. Like Billyann. Just use a G. Lol It is my goal to put notes from the teachings on OO. When is a great question. Pray for me. Two 4 inch binders full of gold. Thanks for the support. It is great how we have all had an important part of building this site.
Hey Gary, I remember Hombre/Whitney sending the teachings to me by email and being able to listen to them (the whole series, I think...it was about 4-5 years ago)somehow on my computer(don't remember how, I know I saved them....BUT, my computer died a couple years ago and everything was lost)Maybe we discussed it on the 'other forum' during my brief time there.<smile> I don't recall having a discussion on OO about it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Ah-Ha! I did mention the teaching in a post to Sage/Sue message #5659 Sat. April 11, 2009.(it's located on the 1st page of the Bulletin Board) I did reference some of the scriptures HEF used, this was from the introduction to the series on "The Day of The Lord". Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but there's a good chance that someone on here(William, Sue, Gillyann, Ron) has those original tapes with notes....just regretably, not me.
End-Time Studies (401-485) End-Time Events--The Day of The Lord (11 tapes) Gotta check the notes to see if these are there. Brief Titles: Intro Rapture Nature of Rapture Aspects of Rapture Trib 70 Weeks Antichrist Time of Rapture Armageddon Israel's salvation Millennium Punishment of Wicked Judgement of believer's Works
james wrote on Thu, 26 September 2013 08:28 Hey Gary, Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but there's a good chance that someone on here(William, Sue, Gillyann, Ron) has those original tapes with notes....just regretably, not me. Hi James, Thanks this did help a lot I did not remember exactly how that happened. I know the messages were sent over the internet with a free program called; SendIt. I think that was the name you can send music or teaching tapes through that software. Gary
Hi Marilyn, I don't know if anyone has those teachings on the end times that they could send you over the internet but if your interested I could mail you a CD. It's called the "Day of the Lord". Its all on the end times. I would be interested to know what you and Trevor thought about the teachings. Gary
William, Some thoughts on your topic. Quote "...this generation will not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Luk 21:32 `This verse has been used to assert that the generation that saw Jerusalem re-taken by Israel in 1967 would not pass away before seeing the return of Jesus.` Unquote I wondered why people thought the date of that generation had to start with 1967 & reading your notes again I see why. They connected `67 with Jerusalem retaken. However if we read the scripture in context we see that the Lord is saying - `Behold the fig tree & all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves ...... Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.` (Luke 21: 29 - 32) We know from God`s word that the `fig tree` is Israel & the other `trees,` are obviously the other nations. We know from history that Israel became a nation in 1948 & many other nations around the world gained their independence. Thus `this generation,` will not pass away. By about 80 years people are passing away. And these now are my thoughts, opinion, that by the year 2028 there would not be many of that generation left in Israel as they would be 80. Now we take off 7 years for the tribulation & there we have 2020 - 21 as a probable time for the Body of Christ to be matured & go to its eternal setting. As I said the last part is my opinion & as there is still much to happen we will keeping looking to the Lord for His perseverance.
Just a reminder that the Revelation series outlines are under the NT tab, Revelation outlines. Thought it might help until I can get the other info on here.
I had a look at those notes awhile ago & thought they were very good. Thank you Gillyann. Will you put them under a separate title so they wont get lost in the comments?
GWB, I looked over those notes in Revelations and I am assuming the person who took them just highlighted what he was teaching. Didn't he get into more detail with each heading while teaching on this? Just wondering! If I remember correctly he expounded on each topic that was written down. It just seemed like when I was reading the notes there were gaps and things were left out. I could be wrong on this but I thought there was more detail with each heading. Gary
Quote: Marilyn Crow wrote on Sun, 29 September 2013 20:03 Thus `this generation,` will not pass away. By about 80 years people are passing away. And these now are my thoughts, opinion, that by the year 2028 there would not be many of that generation left in Israel as they would be 80. Now we take off 7 years for the tribulation & there we have 2020 - 21 as a probable time for the Body of Christ to be matured & go to its eternal setting. As I said the last part is my opinion & as there is still much to happen we will keeping looking to the Lord for His perseverance. Thanks for stating that is only your opinion concerning the 'time-line' of 2020-21. There is much left to happen, of course it could happen very quicky or take years. There's a saying about opinions, "everybody's got one"...and I usually do, but on this subject of when The Lord will return, I don't. I do look for His coming every day. Anyone remember the Carl Sietz song about this subject? "Like a man in January sets his heart to spring..."
@Marilyn, Yes, the notes will be under NT Theology. I will have to listen to the tapes myself and take my own notes. The series of Revelation was taught in a house, I believe. That is why sister Linda did not have them, I think. @Gary, The Revelation outline was provided and written by HEF. He handed these out at some point. They are not my notes. I have all of the tapes and the radio series. I had to store them again due to remodeling the house. ASAP or when I have access to my things again, I will get going on it. Huge project.......
james A very good point there james & one that should be ours everday in the aspect that we look for Him everyday as we personally do not know if we should die today. My dear father for many years before he passed away would say, `Are you coming today Lord?` And one day dad was taken, `Promoted to glory,` as the old timers would say. Now concerning your thoughts, `it could happen very quick or take years,` & my thoughts ` a probable time (7 - 8 years) for the Body of Christ to be matured & go to its eternal setting.` My thoughts were not just based on Israel as a nation being 80. but on specific indicators in God`s word. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss & for me to enlarge on my reasonings. 1. The maturing of the Body of Christ. (Eph. 4: 13) `until we all attain to the unity of the Faith & of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man ....` 2. The Holy Spirit guiding us in this maturing (individually & corporately as the Body). (John 16: 13 & 14) `But when He the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth;....He shall take of Mine, & shall disclose it to you.` (We have received the truth of - Christ as Saviour, healer, baptiser in the Holy Spirit, giftings of the Holy Spirit & ministries of the ascended Lord ...but the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal across the Body the fullness of Christ`s eternal purposes.) 3. Thus when the Body of Christ reaches maturity it will go to its eternal setting on Christ`s throne as KingPriests. (Rev. 1: 6 & 3: 21)This is the beginning of the restoration of all authority under Christ in each realm. (Acts 3: 20 & 21 & 1 Cor. 15: 23 - 26) So now you can see a bit more of my thinking & that I am not just plucking dates out of the air but desiring to be diligent to watch as the Lord said,.. `But you brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are sons of light.....for God has not destined us for wrath.....` (1 Thess. 5: 4 - 9) `Therefore encourage one another, & build up one another, just as you are doing.` ( 1 Thess. 5: 11) I hope this has been an encouragement to you james that I am not just plucking dates but looking to what our blessed Lord by His Holy Spirit is doing in the Body of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 24.Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 12.Matthew 25:13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming. If it was possible to know the hour then the five foolish virgins would of made ready, but by the very fact they did not know they were caught unawares. We can know the signs that it is near but not the actual hour. Gary
Is anybody here having problems with posts disappearing? I have typed several posts then when I hit any key they just disappear. I have checked the compatibility view in the tool bar up above but still having problems. Also if you want to put some ones post in a separate box type [ quote ] at the beginning of the sentence and then at the end of the sentence type [/ quote ] Run those brackets around quote close together I spaced them so they would not disappear. Quote: Lord Bless Gary
I have to agree with William on this view about the times of the gentiles being fulfilled. Quote: William Wrote: Even if the end of the "times of the Gentiles" could be dated from 1967 (which in my opinion is dubious) isn't it possible that it could be referring to the last living survivor of that generation? In 1948 Israel received statehood through the Balfour declaration. England blocked many Jews from coming into the country that were fleeing from Nazi Germany. The Arabs thought this was a golden time to push Israel into the ocean because of all their high tech weapons. But with God's help the Jews defeated the Arabs and won control of Jerusalem and the old city within its walls. With that said, the gentiles are still there in Jerusalem. Maybe there is more to the parable that Jesus was giving at that time concerning the fig tree. Part of the prophecy that Jesus gave has come to pass. The Romans in 70 A.D. surrounded Jerusalem and when they went into the city they pushed a large number of stones off the temple wall. Many are still lying in a huge pile over there to this day. The other thing I thought of is that I do not know if we can say a generation is 80 years just because some are dying at that age. Many today live to be hundred. In fact some people live to be over a hundred years old. So I don't see how we can be conclusive that it is eighty years. Just another opinion here. Gary P.S. If anyone is having problems losing posts, look up in the tool section of the bar above and make sure the compatibility view was working. Strange, my post came back and it seems to be working. I don't know what is going on here. Big brother? james
Hi Marilyn, I didn't think you were plucking dates<smile> nor being flipant with The Word of God. But each one of us on this forum were reading these same scriptures you use and some more 30 years ago. Not to imply some 'deep' understanding of end-time events(eschatology) and certainly to remain teachable to any revealation that has been overlooked or missed, still there is only a limited understanding of what John 'saw' and how he described his visions. Christians have been believing 'for the unity and maturing of the Body of Christ' and His return for quite some time and many, many of them have gone on to be with The Lord having not seen the fulfilling of that which they longed for. I'm not admonishing you or arguing, at all, just saying give God room to be God (if you know what I mean) He is sovereign and does all things after the council of His own will...The return of The Lord will be timed perfectly and in the meantime we can and should live expectantly and with hope, sharing this hope with all men. It is a captivating subject, even the 'world' loves movies and books about the end...study to show ourselves approved unto God? Yes. But be humble and teachable so we don't stumble if what we 'think' we know doesn't happen as we antiscipate. Reminding myself here, due to past experiences.
James, How did you cut into my post? That is definitely post violation fraud, if I ever seen it. Gary
It IS big brother! Lol Study like you have a thousand years, live like you ........ Anybody remember what was next? .....a day?
Gary wrote on Tue, 01 October 2013 15:13 James, How did you cut into my post? That is definitely post violation fraud, if I ever seen it. Gary I figured since 'Big Brother' is partially shut down they wouldn't spend the resources coming after a little ole post violator like me... But if you want to press charges maybe some vigilante bounty hunter will take the contract, if you offer enough cash...<SMILE>
Hi Gary, Thank you for the help with the `boxes.` I wondered how you all did that. Was going to ask & there you saw my need. I did like that joke between you & james. Good to hear humour sprinkled amongst the discussion. I remember on Andrew Strom`s site when things got really heated someone posted, `it`s like trying to have a house group in the Colosseum with the gladiators fighting.` Now I don`t want to be a gladiator as I appreciate you all don`t either. So in reply to your comments Gary let`s look at this teaching that we have all been taught - `the Lord coming as a thief in the night.` Well the Lord said it, & I believe He will come as a thief in the night. The Lord also said `get behind me Satan.` & I believe He meant it but it wasn`t said to me or for me. It was said to Peter as we all know. Thus said let`s look at who the Lord spoke those words of `coming as a thief,` & why He said it. Matt. 24: 42 - 44 & 25: 13 Here the Lord is talking to the people of Israel saying that He would come to them as a `thief in the night.` & thus they would not know `the day or hour.` Now in Romans the Holy Spirit tells Paul that Israel was in darkness. `let their eyes be darkened.` etc. (Rom. 11: 8 - 10) So if they are in darkness of course they are not going to know when the Lord comes for them. Now Rev. 3: 3. Here the Lord we see is talking to some in the Body of Christ. (Sardis) He calls them `dead,` & tells them to `wake up....for if they don`t & continue in darkness then He will `come like a thief,` to them & they will not know at what hour He will come upon them. So my question to you Gary & to all of us are you, we in darkness like Israel or Sardis, so that the Lord will come like a thief to us & that we will not know the day or hour of His coming? Let`s look at your other scripture, the wonderful revelation by the Holy Spirit to the Thessalonians that hopefully describes us. But first let`s look at the THEM/THEY. `For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While THEY are saying, "Peace & safety!` then destruction will come upon THEM suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; & THEY shall not escape.` (1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3) I certainly don`t want to be a part of the THEM/THEY with the Lord coming upon me like a thief in the night & not knowing when. Looking to the Lord I believe He will keep me in the next group - `BUT YOU, BRETHREN ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THE DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU LIKE A THIEF; FOR YOU ARE ALL SONS OF LIGHT & SONS OF DAY. WE ARE NOT OF NIGHT NOR OF DARKNESS.` Not shouting with the capitals but so rejoicing in my spirit at the revelation of not being in darkness nor that the day should overtake me/us as a thief. So `therefore,` because of the above revelation, `therefore, encourage one another, & build up one another, just as you are doing.` (1 Thess. 5: 11) And I believe there is much encouragement here in this group.
Gary, Just a thought on the generation. My husband Trevor reminded me of the 70 years God gave. `As for the days of our life, they contain 70 years, or if due to strength, eighty years.` (Ps. 90: 10) To me I used that number as a general observation that a generation would be passing away. If you went to 90 years there definitely would not be many of the `fig tree,` generation left. But that is not my yard-stick as I believe the Body of Christ purpose happens first & God is not subject to man`s timetable. I`ll go into this next post in answering james.
Hi james, glad we can get to know each other better through discussion. And I didn`t think you were accusing me of plucking dates. It was just a comment. Also it`s not that easy to carry on a conversation with the time lag whereas you can all chat after each other. I must need more patience. And I do. Now concerning some of your comments. You said you didn`t have an opinion, but you did -`it could happen very quickly or take years,` is an opinion. I thought about it & if we thought the Lord was coming back quickly as opposed to years, well we wouldn`t buy those goods, or plan that holiday etc etc.if you see what I mean. I know people have said, `Live like the Lord is coming tomorrow but plan like He is coming in a thousand years,` or something like that as you were also trying to remember. Our forgetteries as playing up. OK. Now the `unity & maturing part.` Yes I know & appreciate people have looked at those scriptures over the years but they have misinterpreted them. Let`s have a good look - Eph. 4. Here we see the Apostle Paul speaking of two unities. The unity of the Spirit & the unity of what we believe, Faith. UNITY OF THE SPIRIT `...being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace,...` (Eph. 4: 3) Here we are told that it is by the Holy Spirit that we are in unity. It is the Holy Spirit that places us in the Body of Christ as He desires. `...now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the Body, just as He desired.` (1 Cor. 13: 18) People have misinterpreted seeing our differences of understanding of the word as meaning we are not in unity. Thus they have tried & still do to get Christians to form this & that to look like they are all one but it just ends up looking like a mass of `penguins.` - uniformity which we know is definitely not unity. But we have God`s assurance that He by His Holy Spirit has us in unity. As if we could ever do it. However our part is to `keep, preserve the unity of the Spirit.` That is all to do with our attitudes. ` `...walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility & gentleness, with patience showing forbearance to one another in love, being diligent to PRESERVE the UNITY of the SPIRIT in the bond of peace.`(v.1 - 3) UNITY OF FAITH Thus said of course there are the glaring differences of what we all believe. Remember I said that the Lord sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth of Him & His purposes. And then I gave a list of the truths that have been restored to the Body of Christ over the years. It may help to give you a personal example. I am a third generation Apostolic though now not part of the denomination. This movement came out of the Welsh revival & stood for the 5-fold ministries. The other parts of the Body did not understand this revelation & there was much opposition. Even when I was in my 30`s in the `80`s the revelation had not yet come across the Body. Yet looking around today, the books, the messages, the acceptance of Apostles & Prophets as part of the 5-fold ministries is generally accepted across the Body. We, the Body have come to the unity of faith, what we believe in respect to that revelation. Of course there is much counterfeit. Now because we have not been taken to our eternal setting, there is other revelation that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal across the Body. As always a few receive at first then stand against opposition till finally more & more people receive the revelation & we all come to the Unity of the Faith, of what the Holy Spirit has revealed over time to the Body. That is why Paul goes on in Eph. 4 to talk about false teachings `tossed to & fro,` & `speaking the truth in love.` There he combines the two unities. Speaking out the revelation that the Body needs to hear but speaking with the right attitude, in love. Appreciating the discussion, james.
Marilyn, Will have to think about this. Yes I agree with what you said, and I am normally against pulling scriptures out of context to prove a point, which I definitely did in this case I should of took the time to read the context. I was thinking of another scripture but could not find it, and used these instead. I'll have to find the one I was thinking of. The Bible search software I use is not very good in finding some verses and it does not help because I remember a lot of the verses from the original KJV. Now I am using the NKJV and there is quite a difference when trying to find a verse. If that makes sense here. Gary
Marilyn, The verse in Psalm 90:10 The days of our lives are seventy years; And if by reason of strength they are eighty years, I believe that is a good promise from God that we can believe for and appropriate by faith, but the Lord is in control and only He knows our actual time on the earth. But it could be established as a generation but I don't know if that could be all conclusive for Bible interpretation. Here is the scripture I was referring to earlier: Matthew 24:36-44 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Three times Jesus says we cannot know the hour of His coming. If it was possible to know the exact hour a lot of people would put on their Sunday best to impress the Lord that they are ready. But by not knowing the exact hour it shows what is in a person's heart. Those who make an effort to be ready are showing their love for the Lord and the things of God. And thinking about this it can be seen as a thief in the night, to mean that it will happen when no one is even aware it is happening. A thief sneaks in at night and steals the goods, you have know idea that he is there taking things till after it is over. My analogy for what its worth. Because Jesus made these statements concerning His return I cannot see how any of us could ever figure out the hour. With that said, I think we can know the signs of the times and this motivates us to be ready and have the oil in our lamps. Gary
Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 01 October 2013 20:05 Hi james, glad we can get to know each other better through discussion. And I didn`t think you were accusing me of plucking dates. It was just a comment. Also it`s not that easy to carry on a conversation with the time lag whereas you can all chat after each other. I must need more patience. And I do. I too am glad to get to know fellow believers, especially those from down under. Patience is a virtue...I could always use more. Now concerning some of your comments. You said you didn`t have an opinion, but you did -`it could happen very quickly or take years,` is an opinion. I thought about it & if we thought the Lord was coming back quickly as opposed to years, well we wouldn`t buy those goods, or plan that holiday etc etc.if you see what I mean. I know people have said, `Live like the Lord is coming tomorrow but plan like He is coming in a thousand years,` or something like that as you were also trying to remember. Our forgetteries as playing up. You're correct, I do have an opinion, I should have said that I'm not dogmatic in my opinion concerning this discussion.<SMILE> OK. Now the `unity & maturing part.` Yes I know & appreciate people have looked at those scriptures over the years but they have misinterpreted them. Let`s have a good look - Eph. 4. Here we see the Apostle Paul speaking of two unities. The unity of the Spirit & the unity of what we believe, Faith. Maybe it would be better to say, "they have misinterpreted them...in my opinion." I'm sure all scriptures have been misinterpreted by 'someone' at various times, including the present. And I've certainly been guilty of misinterpreting scripture before. UNITY OF THE SPIRIT `...being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace,...` (Eph. 4: 3) Here we are told that it is by the Holy Spirit that we are in unity. It is the Holy Spirit that places us in the Body of Christ as He desires. `...now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the Body, just as He desired.` (1 Cor. 13: 18) People have misinterpreted seeing our differences of understanding of the word as meaning we are not in unity. Thus they have tried & still do to get Christians to form this & that to look like they are all one but it just ends up looking like a mass of `penguins.` - uniformity which we know is definitely not unity. But we have God`s assurance that He by His Holy Spirit has us in unity. As if we could ever do it. However our part is to `keep, preserve the unity of the Spirit.` That is all to do with our attitudes. ` `...walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility & gentleness, with patience showing forbearance to one another in love, being diligent to PRESERVE the UNITY of the SPIRIT in the bond of peace.`(v.1 - 3) I'm not sure I can agree that The Body of Christ is walking in unity at this time, maybe small segments(remnant). The statement, "...has us in unity..." seems in conflict with Eph. 4:13 which says,"...until we all come to the unity of the faith..." So much of Christianity today are lead by denominational creeds and traditions, man made programs and leadership chosen by man and not called of God.(He gave some apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, teachers.....Key phrase, "He gave...") UNITY OF FAITH Thus said of course there are the glaring differences of what we all believe. Remember I said that the Lord sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth of Him & His purposes. And then I gave a list of the truths that have been restored to the Body of Christ over the years. It may help to give you a personal example. I am a third generation Apostolic though now not part of the denomination. This movement came out of the Welsh revival & stood for the 5-fold ministries. The other parts of the Body did not understand this revelation & there was much opposition. Even when I was in my 30`s in the `80`s the revelation had not yet come across the Body. Yet looking around today, the books, the messages, the acceptance of Apostles & Prophets as part of the 5-fold ministries is generally accepted across the Body. We, the Body have come to the unity of faith, what we believe in respect to that revelation. Of course there is much counterfeit. Agreed, much counterfeit...Self appointed without the anointing that validates the office/position of 5-fold ministry. btw: In the 70's and early 80's here in America we had this revelation (those of us who were taught through the ministry of Hobart Freeman...most all on this forum, not saying we are all perfected or are in perfect unity...) Now because we have not been taken to our eternal setting, there is other revelation that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal across the Body. As always a few receive at first then stand against opposition till finally more & more people receive the revelation & we all come to the Unity of the Faith, of what the Holy Spirit has revealed over time to the Body. That is why Paul goes on in Eph. 4 to talk about false teachings `tossed to & fro,` & `speaking the truth in love.` There he combines the two unities. Speaking out the revelation that the Body needs to hear but speaking with the right attitude, in love. Appreciating the discussion, james. I appreciate 'the right additude, in love'... hope my 'additude' shows love...<smile>
James, I know what you mean about patience here at least to some degree. I had prayed about something recently and committed it to the Lord. The answer did not come immediately but I knew it was coming and was thinking about the time lapse. The Lord then quickened this scripture to me: James 1:2-8 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. ... When we pray our faith is being tested but this is what produces patience, then it goes on to say let patience have her perfect work. It was a comfort in that situation knowing the Lord was working patience in me. Patience is a virtue and I know what you are saying here that we all need patience. Gary
Hi Gary, You pointed out these scriptures - Matt. 24: 36 - 44 Some more good scriptures showing that Jesus was talking to Israel concerning His coming for them as a thief in the night. He comes as `a thief,` to them because they are in darkness. (Rom.11: 8 -10) Remember they not only rejected the Lord, the Messiah, but they also, as a nation rejected the Holy Spirit. (Acts 28: 23 - 28)And it is not until after the tribulation when the Lord comes to them as their Messiah that God pours out His Holy Spirit upon them & they receive Him whom they have pierced. `And I will pour out on the house of David & on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace & of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; & will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son....` (Zech. 12: 10) Also notice in Matt. 24: 36 that Jesus said that `not even the Son` not even He knew when that day would be. Why? Jesus, when He was on earth put aside His omniscience (etc) (Phil. 2: 7)& thus only operated as a man obedient to the Holy Spirit. Now of course we know that the ascended, glorified & exalted Lord Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the father on His throne, equal, one with the Father & Holy Spirit & has all the attributes of the Godhead, omniscience being one. Thus now as the head of the Body Christ by HIs Holy Spirit leads us in the light & tells us quite clearly that - `you are all sons of light & sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness.....` Thus `the day should not overtake you like a thief.` We, in the Body of Christ will not be overtaken by surprise at the Lord`s coming. (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5) We are also told that we will see the day coming & that as we do see the day coming closer & closer we are to encourage each other & more & more as it draws nigh. (Heb. 10: 25) Thus because we are not in darkness but connected to Christ the Head who leads us on & is confirming more & more as the day draws near to be expectant, aware, ready & not surprised. No one is going to `impress God,` because the motives of our hearts will be exposed to all. (1 Cor. 4: 5) And I`m sure, Gary, as we come closer & closer my estimate will be revised & revised. As we all know there is still much refining in our lives & corporately yet to happen.
james (Quote)`I'm not sure I can agree that The Body of Christ is walking in unity at this time, maybe small segments(remnant). The statement, "...has us in unity..." seems in conflict with Eph. 4:13 which says,"...until we all come to the unity of the faith..."`(unquote) Maybe I was not clear but those two unities are different. Man cannot bring the `unity of the Spirit,` as it is only by the Holy Spirit, when we are saved that that happens. That is why it needs to be preserved by our right attitude otherwise we will disqualify ourselves. That `unity of the Spirit,` is foundational & upon which the next unity is built. The `unity of Faith,` of what we believe. And as you rightly said there are so many denominations & creeds, man-made. But if we look back over the centuries we can see the progressive unfolding of truth by the Holy Spirit across the Body. The man made structures loom big & get the airspace but the true Body of Christ continues to be formed in the secret places & will be revealed in the Lord`s timing as you said. (Quote) The return of The Lord will be timed perfectly and in the meantime we can and should live expectantly and with hope, sharing this hope with all men. (Unquote) That is my heart`s desire also, james, to continue to share our hope with others. My friends & I find that this message of God`s word telling us about our times is very well received by non Christians & a great introduction to how relevant God`s word is today in every aspect of our lives.
Quote: Marilyn wrote:Some more good scriptures showing that Jesus was talking to Israel concerning His coming for them as a thief in the night. He comes as `a thief,` to them because they are in darkness. Hi Marilyn, Could you please show me where you got this statement that Jesus is talking to Israel? In the Bible it says: Jesus was setting alone on the Mt. of Olives, He was not preaching in a synagogue, nor in the temple, nor was He addressing a group of Israelites, He was not speaking to Pharisees, Sadducees, Lawyers or scribes. In verse four of that chapter it says He is speaking in "private" to His disciples. 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” The next two chapters of the Bible Jesus is talking to His disciples about the end times in "private". These passages are for us as well His disciples. Jesus is telling us that: 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. He is clearly speaking to His disciples and not to Israel and anyone in darkness. I don't understand where you came up with this meaning when the Bible is very clear on who Jesus is talking to. Gary
Hi Gary. Some more good questions re: Matt. 24. Yes Jesus is just talking to His disciples, as you so rightly point out. He was not speaking to the leaders of Israel because they had rejected Him. It was but two more days till He was to be crucified. (Matt. 26: 2) So we read that the Lord is talking to His disciples concerning when He would come again to Israel. The disciples were then to go & tell others in Israel about what Jesus had told them. Then later the disciples passed on this message about the Day of the Lord onto the Christians. For we read in 1 Thess. 5: 1 - 5 that they knew about the times & seasons & that the Day of the Lord would come, as Jesus said `like a thief,` to those in darkness. And what joy those early Christians would have had to realise that God had not destined them for wrath and that the day of the Lord would not come to them as a thief, for they were not in darkness. I read again your questions & see that you also ask about `those in darkness.` The disciples Jesus was speaking to were not in darkness, as you said. However Israel as a nation was as they rejected & killed their Messiah. And the Jewish generations that followed were also in darkness & will be till the Lord comes & reveals Himself to them on Mount of Olives. (Acts: 23 - 28. Rom. 11: 8 - 10. Zech. 12: 10) Hope that explains it for you. Now Gary my question, Can you now share what you think of 1 Thess. 5: 4?
Marilyn, First of all, I love your being here on OO. You do challenge what one believes! Lol Do you see the day and times? What, exactly, does days and times mean? What is the gauge for days and times today? Whoaahhhh on Jews killing Jesus. Christians have killed and have persecuted the Jews for hundreds of years because of this error. Please explain. Essentially, you are touching God's anointed Nation, Israel, for accusing them of murdering Jesus. "Touch not my anointed." Backing up now.......
GWB wrote on Fri, 04 October 2013 20:24 Whoaahhhh on Jews killing Jesus. Christians have killed and have persecuted the Jews for hundreds of years because of this error. Please explain. Essentially, you are touching God's anointed Nation, Israel, for accusing them of murdering Jesus. "Touch not my anointed." Backing up now....... OK! We know it was the Roman soldiers who actually carried out the crucification; but how many scriptures do you want that says the Jews 'killed' Him? Matt. 27:24-25; John 10:30-33; Acts 2:22-23. Of course it wasn't the entire Jewish population, but the leaders and those gathered against Him. Unless it's past my bedtime and I'm getting foggy, I totally disagree that in no way is anyone (Marilyn) touching God's anointed...That seems waaay outa context and reason...not to mention, untrue.
Great references. The Word says it was the multitudes. You can't take one scripture out of context. So, James, did the Jews kill Jesus? Do you agree with Marilyn? Can you spell NAZI? Can you spell Crusades? Still backing up.....
Hi Gary, I so appreciate you as you have such a good attitude plus you do say things up front. Now to some of your questions - ISRAEL Firstly I believe we have all `killed the Lord,` in the aspect of our sins. But wasn`t it the `chief priests & elders of the people ` that `took counsel against Jesus to put Him to death; & they bound Him, & led Him away, & delivered Him up to Pilate the governor.`(Matt. 27:1 & 2) And then further on how those particular people, the chief priests & elders, accused Jesus before Pilate. Then they persuaded the multitudes to ask for the release of Barabbas instead of Jesus. (Matt. 27: 12 & 20) You are right I cannot say the Jews killed Jesus for specifically it was those specific chief priests & elders who gave Jesus up to the Romans who actually physically carried out the deed. Now these particular chief priests & elders represented the Nation of Israel in their leadership positions before God. Yet they still turned away from the truth, even when Paul, a Hebrew of the Hebrews opened up the word to them to show them about Jesus being the Messiah. (Acts 28: 17, 23 - 27) Many people in Israel did not agree with crucifying Jesus but the Nation as a whole has yet to turn to their Messiah. `They will look on Me whom they have pieced...` (Zech. 12: 10) TIMES & SEASONS Now as regard to the `times & seasons,` which Paul said that the Thessalonians knew about, they would be the `set times` that God has appointed for His purposes. Daniel`s appointed time for the end of the Gentile Rulers, The appointed time for Israel`s chastisement to come to an end. And other appointed times mentioned in Daniel for specific events to occur. Then there are the Days - The Day of Christ. (For the Body of Christ) The Day of the Lord (God). (For Israel & the nations) The Day of God. (New Heavens & New Earth - consummation of all things) Much to talk about. How are you going with my question of 1 Thess.5: 4? Keeping you busy, Gary.
Hi, Marilyn, Yes, we are all up front. We are a passionate people on OO! Lol Either the Jews were completely responsible for His death or not. Thousands upon thousands of Jews have died due to this brand of unclear thinking. What is it? Either you agree with Hitler or you don't. Either you are going to slay thousands of Jews in the Middle Ages for killing Jesus during the Crusades, or you don't. James.......Do you really agree with this? Really? What is your gauge for the "times and signs?" What do the "signs in the sky" mean? Would you mind explaining present day "times and signs." So love midrashing.
Hi Gillyann, You`ve all got me thinking as I have never actually thought from your perspective. When you say (Quote)Either the Jews were completely responsible for His death or not. Thousands upon thousands of Jews have died due to this brand of unclear thinking. (/Quote) Firstly do you mean just the Jews, at that time? & just those chief priests & elders? Actually it is clear from God`s word what God says. `Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord & Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified.` (Acts 2: 36) The Apostle Peter a Jew of the Nation of Israel said - `Men of Judea, & all you who live in Jerusalem ....& `Men of Israel....` (Acts 2: 14, 22) As to Jews being persecuted down through the ages it would be because Satan wants as always to destroy God`s Nation that will one day rule the world. Yes some people may use that thought `the Jews killed Jesus,` as an excuse for a scape goat but in doing so shows who they are of - the devil. Gillyann, what is `midrashing?` PS. Will think on those other questions you raised re: signs etc.
Midrashing is a Jewish term for discussing and "...dividing the Word." The death of Jesus was political. Yes, Jews were involved. But, were they completely responsible? Tell me what to do with the "multitudes." Were the multitudes ALL Jewish?
Great. I would love to understand why you think Jesus is soon to return. I would love to hear your take on prophecy and headlines......VERY important! Would you line up your end time beliefs (signs and times) with newspaper headlines?
Thanks for that explanation Gillyann - midrashing, discussing & dividing the word. Great, & oh how we love to handle accurately the word of truth. Takes a bit of listening, sharing, thinking, praying, meditating etc etc. That is why I like it here for you can come back to a topic days, weeks, years afterwards. So, the multitudes being persuaded by the chief priests & elders cried out for Barabbas. And sadly the multitude said, `His blood be on us & on our children.` (Matt. 27: 25) Would be interesting to know if there were other nationalities in the multitude but as God said `house of Israel..this Jesus whom you crucified.` (Acts 2: 36)I have to leave it with what God said in relation to them, but knowing full well that everyone who knows of Jesus down through the ages will all be responsible for that revelation. All our sins took Him there. For if we were there our human nature would have done the same thing. `Away with Him....` And finally to add to the mix, the Lord Himself lay down His own life as an offering for all our sin. How wonderful, How blessed we are.
Gillyann. I am preparing to answer your questions but think I may start a new thread as this has gone past the temple mount info.
Acts 4:10 ".....let it be known to you, and to ALL the people of Israel..." Blaming Jews alone for His death is flat wrong. Again, to single Jews out, for His death, is what Hitler and The Crusaders did. To slander Jews for the death of Messiah is scary. If you have the nerve to do it, fine. ".....touch not my anointed...." .....and I won't.
James.....Where are you? ....... Did Jews, alone, kill Jesus? Check a box: Yes No
Gillyann. Good scripture you have pointed out.... The Apostle Peter filled with the Holy Spirit said unto them. `You rulers of the people, & elders of Israel,......be it known unto you all, & to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus of Nazareth, whom you crucified......`(Acts 4: 8 & 10) What am I not understanding here Gillyann? We seem to be going around in a circle? Do you think I am blaming or slandering??? Am I going beyond what the word says? I see you are also quoting 1 Chron. 16: 22, `Touch not mine anointed...`in relation to God`s everlasting covenant with Israel & those who seek her welfare it will go well with them & those who seek to destroy Israel will go up against God. So true & even more so as we come up to the final battle of the Gentile powers all coming against little Israel. Won`t that look like an overkill, but we know that the Lord will step in & deliver Israel & make them the head of the nations & not the tail or outcasts. A wonderful future Israel has but yet to go through so much pain.
Gillyann, James hasn't been on since he posted his last note. He's not avoiding you... I doubt he even knows that you've posted. The computer he uses is in a community center and there's only one computer that probably a hundred people use! Give him a break! Secondly, no one here has expressed any of the antisemitism you seem to be seeing. It just isn't there. You know James... you know his heart. And while we are just getting to know Marilyn, I'm quite certain she's not expressing any kind of neo-nazism nor is she advocating a new crusade against the Jewish people. That's pretty strong language that you are using. Associating people that you know with terms like Nazi, and Crusaders, is not like you. Blessings, William
Quote: Did Jews, alone, kill Jesus? No one has used the term "alone" but you. Did the Jews kill Jesus? Yes. Did the Jews alone kill Jesus? No. Marilyn quoted the exact passage that made that clear and went on to say that we all bear responsibility. James is going to say the same thing... I know him and he is not a closet Nazi! <grin> Blessings, William
Kinda vague, William. I know that believers are not Nazis on here! However, in these end times, I believe we need to be very specific. God is, and will be, very specific. Isn't there a judgment against anyone who mistreats Israel?
Paleezzzz...... Did the Jews, alone, kill Jesus? Check the box: Yes No
GWB wrote on Fri, 04 October 2013 23:59 Kinda vague, William. I know that believers are not Nazis on here! However, in these end times, I believe we need to be very specific. God is, and will be, very specific. Isn't there a judgment against anyone who mistreats Israel? What's vague about it? Did the Jews kill Jesus? Yes or No. I answered yes to your "yes or no" question (after removing the "alone" part which was added but not needed since no one remotely implied that). Who's mistreating Israel? Speaking the truth, whether we are talking about Jews, gentiles, or any other Christian that ever lived -- cannot be misconstrued as mistreatment. Blessings, William
GWB wrote on Sat, 05 October 2013 00:05 Paleezzzz...... Did the Jews, alone, kill Jesus? Check the box: Yes No I already did. Quote: William answered: Did the Jews kill Jesus? Yes. Did the Jews alone kill Jesus? No. Everyone here will answer it the same way. Blessings, William
Thank you William for your clarity finding the misunderstanding. Gillyann, If you were close, as ladies I`d give you a big hug (I`m a huggy)& say I`m very sorry to have had this misunderstanding & sorry that you have been hurt. We are for Israel not against it. All the best, your sister in the Lord, Marilyn.
I like your answer, William, but I don't like theirs. You can't answer for them. They said that the Jew, ALONE, killed Jesus plain and simple. The Jew, alone, did not kill Messiah. Kinda simple. Either do the homework and be willing to hide Jews, or agree with Hitler. I know that sounds theatrical. But, we are coming down to that again, politically. I mean, really, William, this is your answer: The Jews killed Jesus, but the Jews alone did not kill Jesus. Huh?
Guys, Let's drop this. As William says, let's have a party and throw pizza at each other. Internet is frustrating. We all love Jesus and His people. Brother......lol
GWB wrote on Sat, 05 October 2013 00:30 I like your answer, William, but I don't like theirs. You can't answer for them. They said that the Jew, ALONE, killed Jesus plain and simple. The Jew, alone, did not kill Messiah. Kinda simple. Either do the homework and be willing to hide Jews, or agree with Hitler. I know that sounds theatrical. But, we are coming down to that again, politically. I mean, really, William, this is your answer: The Jews killed Jesus, but the Jews alone did not kill Jesus. Huh? You like my answer but then you don't? And yes, I can answer for them, in fact my answer would be your answer as well. Gillyann answers her own question: Did the Jews alone kill Jesus? NO. You would answer it the same way I answered it, and this will be the same way every participating member would answer it. They aren't saying what you are implying. Marilyn clearly and specifically gave you the biblical answer that any Christian would give if they took the Bible seriously. James is going to say the same thing... Gary will say the same thing... Jman, Sue, and anyone else that has posted will give you the same answer. If you are wanting a litmus test you should first and foremost quote specifically a person's words and then make up your test. I'll apologize to you personally if you can quote anyone who said: (your words here: "They said that the Jew, ALONE, killed Jesus plain and simple.") Where is it? I can't find it. If they said it -- quote it, if not then it is you that isn't being specific or clear. Blessings, William
Quote:GWB We all love Jesus and His people. Yes! Thanks for answering for everyone!! Blessings, William
Lol....Just hide Jews, William. Corey Ten Boom answered for all of us.
Gillyann, Your not understanding what Marilyn and William are saying. They both answered your question. Gillyann sometimes I do this I read a post and get something in my mind and then I am not looking at it correctly what others are saying, when I get away from the situation and then come back and read it later then I understand were I mis-read something. Some people call that a senior moment but I don't believe in them. James, Please get to that computer I don't care if you have to push people out of the way. Marilyn, Will look into scripture you shared and comment later. Please don't say anything about who killed Jesus any more. Just kidding you guys, is James at that computer yet. Gary
I am still looking into that scripture in I Thessalonians 5:4 but while in the process I ran across these verses: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost. Remember when Jesus was before Pilate the Jews that were there said, Let His blood be upon us and our children. I realize not all Jews as Paul states is behind this but it says God's wrath is upon some to the uttermost. Gary
I honestly don't have a clue Gillyann what got under your saddle, unless you're on meds and forgot to take yours. Seriously? Should I stay up all night sitting at a computer to answer your emotionally charged questions? (We went through this same demanding answers mentality concerning vitamins about a year ago, if I recall correctly.) In my first statement I said that the Roman soldiers were the ones who actually crucified JESUS(according to the Bible I use, KJV, but using that same Bible I'm told He was killed by the expressed will of the Jews...and I gave you some scriptures as references...there are many, many more...as you well know.) If someone who was an unbeliever were to come across this thread and read this exchange, they'd have to conclude Christians were nuts! Contention should have no place among those naming The Name of Christ, and being truthful(and speaking in love) Gillyann, your comments and additude(as it comes across on the internet) are contentious...Hey! If for whatever reasoning rational you're using to determine I'm a like unto a Nazi/Hitler or anti-Jewish, and somehow you're called to point it out?????? may I suggest prayer, that usually works better than ranting and raving. I certainly lack in areas of my spiritual walk/understanding with Jesus, but not understanding the history of Israel and how that applies to us Gentiles today isn't one of the areas. I daily pray for the nation of Israel and the peace of Jerusalem, I KNOW God's promises to that nation will be fulfilled and because of their rejection I/we have been grafted into The Kingdom of God. btw: No Christian has ever perscuted the Jewish nation of Israel... Religious, misguided self-righteous men? Yes.... Born-again, Blood bought Christians? No.
James, I think Gillyann was calling into question Marilyn's statement and was asking you for her help, in sorting this out. I don't think she was questioning what you had wrote. Could anyone pass those meds we could all use a few here. What's it called Ginkgo Balboa? I'm blessed to be around a great group of people here, you got to love this place. Gary
Hi William, Thought you & others would be interested in this if you didn`t know it already. We know that on the Temple Mount that the first temple by Solomon was built. Then later after that had been torn down the second temple was built by Nehemiah & others. Now from scripture (Ezekiel)we are told that there will be a third temple built on this very spot, the Temple Mount. Every reference to all three temples on this site was a translation of the Greek word `Hieron.` Any temple erected elsewhere was invariably from the Greek word `Naos.` This word is frequently rendered `Meeting place,` `dwelling,` or `Synagogue.` Now people believe that this temple on Mount Moriah has to be built before the Lord returns because of the `abomination` in the Holy Place that the Lord & the Apostle Paul spoke of in Matt.24:15 & 2 Thess. 2:4. But that is incorrect & has caused much confusion. It is the word `Naos,` (temple elsewhere) that is used for the temple that the Anti-Christ will set up the abomination. And this temple in Jerusalem has already been built. On August 1982 in the presence of the Prime Minister, Menachem Begin, Members of Cabinet & other notables, the Jerusalem great Synagogue was dedicated. It is situated in King George Street, & is constructed from the same local stone as was Solomon`s Temple. The central feature is a high tower containing five magnificent stained-glass windows, topped by two tablets of stone, bearing the ten Commandments. In the interior, marble has been used extensively, especially for the Ark situated beneath the stained-glass windows. This I believe is the Holy Place which will be desecrated by the `Abomination ` referred to by Jesus. The Temple referred to by the Apostle Paul is built!
No, I had not heard that... very interesting stuff! I do remember back in the 80's that someone purportedly had found the location of the Ark of the Covenant. I don't know if the report was valid though. I really should catch up on the current news having to do with eschatology! Blessings, William
Fact check Googling "naos in Bible" leads to this link: http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/naos.html From this link many, many verses that use the word "naos" to refer to the main Jewish temple can be found. Jman ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 278 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
Thank you for your interest jman. Solomon`s temple, sacred Place is referred to as `Hieron,` as in John 10: 23. `Jesus was walking in the temple (hieron)in the portico of Solomon.` Whereas the Apostle Paul uses the Greek word `Naos,` when referring to the abomination set up in the temple at Jerusalem but not at the Mount Moriah site. `(the anti-Christ) who opposes & exalts himself above every so called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple (Naos) of God, displaying himself as being God.` (2 Thess. 2: 4)
Quote: Much to talk about. How are you going with my question of 1 Thess.5: 4? Keeping you busy, Gary. Very busy to say the least. I normally don't dwell on the end time events but I am very interested in being aware of what God is doing in the earth. Now concerning I Thess. 5:4. We have to remember that Paul did not write in chapter and verses so we have to look at what he is saying before and after some statements. This is a letter to the Thessalonian church which Paul commends them of their faith and love as abounding. Then in the latter part of the letter Paul writes concerning end time events. The conversation actually starts in chapter four. Now concerning this verse in 5:4 I think it is answered in verse two as to our discussion on the Lord coming as a thief in the night. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. Paul is telling them that they should know that the Lord is coming as a thief in the night. Why? Because Jesus said He would in Matthew 24 when He was talking to His disciples in private. Paul is then stating in verse four that we are not overtaken as we are the children who are walking in the light. Paul is not saying you'll know the hour in which Jesus is returning but that it will not over take us and we would be caught unawares. Like the five foolish virgins when the bridegroom came they were over taken and found themselves with out oil in their lamps. Paul goes on to say in verse six: 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. He is mainly stressing the importance of watching and being ready. I do not find that he is insinuating that we all know the exact hour of the Lord's return. Don't misunderstand here what I am trying to say, What would be the purpose of knowing the exact hour and minute that Jesus is coming back if your walking in the light and making yourself ready? Its not the exact hour that is of importance here its making ourselves ready and not getting caught up in the affairs of this life. I agree we can all look at the signs and this motivates some to make ready but should we not be making ourselves ready because of our Love for Jesus Christ and what He did for each of us on the cross? I do find it interesting that Paul also speaks of the end times in the second letter as well. I was thinking earlier this subject is scattered through out the whole Bible. Now tell me what would be the reason that a man would have to know the exact hour in time if you see the signs and are walking in the Spirit ready to meet Him? Jesus said, the five wise virgins were ready, when the bridegroom came to the door, they did not know the hour but they knew it was close and they had prepared for that moment. They knew He was coming and was prepared when He arrived. Gary
Hi Gary, I agree. I think we have had a misunderstanding here. I never said we will know the day or hour. Bit of a communication break down. My focus was that we as believers are not in darkness & that we will see the Day (the tribulation) coming. Thus we will not be overtaken when the Lord comes for us. And yes the important aspect is our watching & being ready, as you said. I like how you put the scriptures in our discussion in the greater context of Pauls letter to the Thessalonians.
You have to make things very plain and simple with me. So simple that even a child could understand it in other words. Gary BTW if you get flooded with emails on these posts and don't want to fill up your email box you can turn this feature off in your settings. But then you only know of a new post by coming here and checking todays messages (sometimes it seems not to work), or log on and check to see what light bulbs are glowing on the board. I spend a lot of times just turning off light bulbs, I think they go off when you read the message or at least open it.
Quote: Anyway, back to the notion that 1967 marked the end of "times of the Gentiles..." I'm not sure that Jerusalem isn't still being trodden down by the Gentiles. I mean the reality is that while Israel is technically in control of Jerusalem they are far from actually controlling the city. Thoughts? Blessings, William I don't know if they will ever control the entire city, as long as the Dome of the Rock sets on the Temple Mount. An Archeologist named Leen Ritmeyer has measured off every possible section of the temple mount, he is convinced that the Dome of the Rock is setting exactly in the same place where the Ark of the Covenant set. With what Mark shared recently concerning gog and magog, one would tend to think that they (the Israelies), would at least be starting the rebuilding of the temple. A lot of the pieces of the puzzle exists but there seems to be many missing pieces to make it all fall into place. At least the way we think it should be. BTW has anyone noticed every time they mention Palestine they talk about them becoming a nation. Israel would become a very small nation if the world steps in and tries to divide the country up with one part belonging to the Jews and another part belonging to the Palestinians. What took place back in the six day war was; "most of the Palestinians left the country because they thought the other Arab nations were going to destroy the Jews". Israel Won the war and most Palestinians found themselves in refugee camps, with no sympathy from their Arab brothers. Now the Arab Nations want them to leave their countries and return to the land that they ran off from. Could this be the reason that Gog and Magog comes down with the rest of the world to destroy Israel for not complying and letting the Palestinians have a state of their own? A number of countries are making a point to state "that Palestine should have its own Country". It keeps being mentioned a lot in the world news of late. It seems to bother a lot of Nations that Israel is not bowing the knee to their suggestions. And as we all seen recently "the Russian Bear", takes whatever country he wants. Gary