O.K! Now that I have your attention with the thread title I'll get to my question after posting this Bible verse from I Corinthians 11. verse 10. "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels." I Corinthians 11:10 Yesterday the pastor (Baptist) where I visited taught from 1 Corinthians 11, he was sharing the Biblical order God has established and when he came to the women wearing headcoverings he 'contexted' it to the society of the day and not a 'requirement' for today. (I'm not sure why anyone would be worried, I've never seen a women<or man either for that matter> prophesying in a Baptist church) Then when he came to verse 10 he stopped and confessed that he had absolutely no clue what was meant by the words..."because of the angels" and how it related to women, headcoverings, or anything. After mulling over his honesty I realized that neither did I. I'm sure that during teachings in Corinthians(and yes, at one time I had 'all the tapes' and notes) HEF covered this, but I don't remember. Anyone care to share? I'm obviously not a woman and don't wear headcoverings (hadn't prophesied lately, either) but I am interested in what Paul was meaning by that statement...not trying to offend anyone with word studies or academics, just wondering what was meant by the phrase, "because of the angels".
Hmmmmm. Very good question. I have to confess I don't know the answer. In fact it has never occurred to me to ask. Almost all of the work in a persons life ie answers to prayer, healing, protection, help, trials, chastisement etc etc is done by angels. Its his responsibility to get us safely into the eternal kingdom AND by the path God wants us to walk. That of course is not to negate our responsibility. Sometimes when "God" speaks to us it is really the angel in our life and if you're discerning you can tell the difference. In any case I'd be interested in the answer to James question if anyone has it.
Quote: Sometimes when "God" speaks to us it is really the angel in our life and if you're discerning you can tell the difference. Hate to drop a bomb shell here. But could you please give me chapter and verse where this concept comes from. I would be very leery of other voices outside of the still small voice of the Spirit. I'm willing to change my view if I know where this is stated in the scripture? Secondly: Quote: Almost all of the work in a persons life ie answers to prayer, healing, protection, help, trials, chastisement etc etc is done by angels. Its his responsibility to get us safely into the eternal kingdom AND by the path God wants us to walk. That of course is not to negate our responsibility. We have an advocate with the Father which is of course Jesus the Son of God, I don't see where Angels are to go to God for us. Angels don't work to answer our prayers, our prayers are by faith to God who then makes the way. Again where in the New Testament does it show this action taking place? I am interested in finding out how you came to this conclusion through scriptures. If I can see this in the Bible I am willing to acknowledge that this teaching exists in scripture. Gary
I only have a few min here but you're reading too much into what I'm saying. Angels appeared and spoke to people all through the bible. Without looking anything up the only time I can think of off hand is Phillip being told to go down to Gaza in Acts 8/26. I don't see where Angels are to go to God for us. Thats not what I meant. We pray to God in Jesus name always. No question about that. But the bringing the answer to pass or the healing or whatever is usually the work of angels. But we give thanks to God of course.
I'm guessing you mean something like what is expressed in Psa 91:11-12. Blessings, William
Mark L Thanks for replying. Yeah maybe I was reading into it. I have heard of individuals now who pray to angels to go and get the answers to their prayers. Also I attended a church for a short time that said we should pray to the Holy Spirit. I do not find this in the scripture as well but they said if the Spirit is within us He is there to answer our prayers. I only read were Jesus is the door to the Father, He paid the price so we can go directly to the throne with our petitions of prayer. Most cults were started by visitations from angels. I believe they have their place in helping us but Jesus is our advocate with the Father. God is our helper and and its under the shadow of His wings that we trust. I am wondering though if anyone knows what James was asking about, "because of the angels". Gary
Dr. Freeman addressed this in OT Theology. From my understanding, we are to go through the Father to request angels to do any bidding. Cherubim, Seraphim, and Teraphim angels all have different roles in God's Kingdom. All of these entities answer to our Father God. When humans try to command angels to do their bidding without Father's permission, and they respond, they are considered "Angels of Light," or fallen angels. I believe there is a book about this subject. Why would angels do anything without our Sovereign Father's consent and blessing? It would be a blessing for anymore thoughts on this. It is a good topic. BTW... I am so thankful for 12 years, 4 times a week, of good and anointed teaching. It was a gift to sit under it directly. I am thankful I had access to the Romans 12 Library so that I was able to listen to the entire teachings over and over again. I have notes on every tape provided by our sister, Linda. It is my desire to put all of this on OO. In going back over previous posts, I want to express my gratitude for the acedemics that I, then and now, devour. My fault in being tired of academics is the lack of patience for revival being manifested. Whoops, bad confession! It is done. "It is finished." I love OO and those who share, and question, our past with FA. We were not perfect. We needed more of the love factor. In pointing out FA's faults, I do not mean to downgrade the precious Word we received. In discerning and dividing the Word among ourselves, I hope it is not seen as a "critical spirit." I believe that term can be used as a cop out to continue to remain stubborn and to not grow in love, gracefulness, and forgiveness. For me, FA is a present experience. The Word delivered me from certain destruction many times. It continues to do so. For those pure in heart, please agree with me and continue to pray for revival if you are led to do so. I am so thankful for OO. God will protect OO with those who humble themselves. I pray for that for myself everyday.
Quote: Dr. Freeman addressed this in OT Theology. From my understanding, we are to go through the Father to request angels to do any bidding. Okay dump a can of worms on us here. I was thinking about what William quoted in the psalms. Quote: I'm guessing you mean something like what is expressed in Psa 91:11-12. Blessings, William What I was going to say before I saw GWB's post was, I don't know about God speaking to us through our angel. There are so many voices or thoughts that can cross ones mind, the fiery darts are obvious but an angel speaking is what I did not understand. Now this new addition an angel can do our bidding by going through the Father is completely new here. I have been through that whole series but it has been years ago. I do remember that he said we cannot cast spirits into the abyss. Did HEF give some reference in scripture concerning these angels? Anyway William I noticed you did not tackle James question here, this is what made me think of this whole deal. So I went back and reread I Corinthians 11, in fact I have reread it several times. A bit puzzled that Paul would spend this whole time writing about the head covering and then close out his remarks with: It doesn't matter we don't have a custom on this anyway, (my paraphrase). He asks several questions in that section of scripture. It is implied that a woman should have her head covered because of what, the angels. I think its a sign of submission on a woman's part because it says Man was created for God, we know the angels were created for God and are masculine, but the Bible says woman was created for man. Man submits to God, Angels submit to God, but women submit to men because they came from man. So I see the headcovering as a sign of submission to authority because of the angels who submit to God and who understand His authority. Just trying to figure this out here not trying to prove anything concerning submission or all that goes with that belief. I'm thinking he mentions we have no such custom, it seems odd to go through this whole discussion and then just cast it aside because some one is contentious about it in the church. Or is Paul talking about something else in the subject matter? I'm was going to look in a commentary but I don't take much stock in the commentaries, but I do like to see what others say on a matter. It would be interesting to understand just what is being proclaimed here, before the thread takes off on a different path. Gary
Gary, there is so much here to consider. Great topic. I need to go pull the OT tapes and listen again for the who knows how many times. This is a random response, but I always pray and request the HS to tell the demons where to go. I am not sure where that originated from FA, but it always works! Maybe our main point in all of this is to run everything through our Father. Dr. Freeman had a radio teaching on this. I have all of the radio teachings. I am going to have to dig I think. I love digging into the Word like this and clarifying these things. I am blessed for iron sharpening iron!
Quote: Anyway William I noticed you did not tackle James question here, this is what made me think of this whole deal. So I went back and reread I Corinthians 11, in fact I have reread it several times. A bit puzzled that Paul would spend this whole time writing about the head covering and then close out his remarks with: It doesn't matter we don't have a custom on this anyway, (my paraphrase). So you noticed that I didn't get into that, heh? <grin> Seriously though, I don't see 1 Corinthians 11 as a mandate for women to wear headcoverings.edited by james due to a glich...I paraphrased what William originally said... The other puzzling verse in that chapter, besides the ones you and James mentioned, is: 1Cor11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? Where does "nature" teach this? Don't take that to mean that I don't think that this is inspired scripture, I most certainly do, I just don't understand it. Blessings, William
I am beginning to see that maybe we sometimes failed to put scripture into context and look at cultures when it came to 'nonsalvation' issues. It was done in zeal to please The Lord, but I certainly don't condemn a woman who isn't wearing a headcovering in an assembly/church. Don't anyone 'read into this' anything, I'm not coming against anyone's convictions, if I were attending Bro. Tom Hamilton's assembly and was a woman, I'd wear a headcovering...but I'm not...either<smile> As to long hair, after laughing to myself at the different 'comebacks' that came to mind, I would argue that nature does indeed teach us that long hair is a shame to a man. Hey! Even some translations of scripture says it.II Samuel 18: tells us that Absalom got his 'long hair' caught in the oak tree and it allowed Joab to kill him. Not that that is that funny. Since I cut my hair after the 'hippie' days I can now throw stones...lol Seriously, I can't see the length of a man's hair as being shameful...though putting it into cultural context, in the 60's it wasn't all that accepted by all.(and maybe all the pictures we see of Jesus and the apostles with shoulder length hair was just speculation by the artists, maybe they wore it shorter than people think) The times they are a changing. As to the angels scripture? Guess we ain't as smart as we think, eh? btw: Gary, when I pray Psalms 91 I almost always ask The Father to give His angels charge over me to keep me in all my ways. I believe that's scriptural, while it's a promise based on conditions(dwelling in the secret place of The Most High), I think a person can 'claim/pray' for what is promised on a daily basis...in faith.
Just a side note, I really did not mind wearing a head covering. I still would not mind. It helped remind me of my proper place and it was a good feeling. I don't want to get into the submission topic. It is Bible, but many things need to be discussed before I would ever do it the way I did at FA. It allowed a lot of abuse to happen. Now, back to angels.
I can't help but think Paul is answering somebodies question, on maybe something that was going on in the Corinthian church. Maybe there was some problem that became contentious. I wondered as well about the passage on men having long hair. I thought about the animal kingdom. Most of the time the male species is a brilliant color then the female. I think this is so they can distract predators away from the nest or home. The males are able to lure them away to another area. In fact the males have longer hair (fur) in many cases. I don't know what Paul is trying to say on this matter. It would go over like a lead balloon in most churches today anyway. On the head covering, I think that it has something to do with the culture as well. Some cultures even today have the women wearing head coverings. Maybe this is what they mean when people say many of Paul's writings are hard to understand. Yes, back to the angels, that was a good passage in Psalm 91 never thought of it like that to use in prayer regularly. I like praying this verse as well; Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. That whole prayer is a good prayer from the Lord. Gary
I appreciated this topic as it made me go away & think on my exercise bike. I was always taught as Gary said that it (head gear)had to do with a (cultural)symbol of authority. Now the part that says, `because of the angels` was tricky until I associated it with what God was doing. Paul tells us in Eph. 3: 10 `that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the Body of Christ to the principalities & powers in the heavenly places.` & `for we have been a spectacle to....angels...` (1Cor. 4: 10)& `-things which angels desire to look into.` (1 Peter 1: 12) I believe this shows that God is teaching the angels of His plans & purposes. This would be amazing to them that the Lord of Glory would leave the heavenly realms where He is adored & obeyed to come down to this sin damaged world & be beaten, rejected etc. Thus submission to authority today is not shown symbolically by wearing head gear but the attitude of the heart which is shown in word & deed. Marilyn
Hi Marilyn, I wondered if the sisters wore head coverings over there. I was thinking today do you guys call each other brother Smith and sister Smith (or whatever your Christian name is) in your meetings? It is a practice here in the states at most Spirit filled churches. I never notice any of the kiwis or people from Oz address each other by these titles. Lord Bless, Gary
No `brother Gary,` we do not call each other like that but if you would like me to do that for you I will! Chuckle, chuckle. It sounds sooooo strange & even Brethren, no offence there. My husband Trevor just piped up & said `tell Gary we just say `G`day mate!` I think Aussie`s like to be down to earth & real. This `brother,` `sister,` sounds so artificial. And do they call each other that in the street when they meet? Ugh. Sorry. Have a good day, `bro.`
Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 11 September 2013 17:22 No `brother Gary,` we do not call each other like that but if you would like me to do that for you I will! Chuckle, chuckle. It sounds sooooo strange & even Brethren, no offence there. My husband Trevor just piped up & said `tell Gary we just say `G`day mate!` I think Aussie`s like to be down to earth & real. This `brother,` `sister,` sounds so artificial. And do they call each other that in the street when they meet? Ugh. Sorry. Have a good day, `bro.` Very good Point. I was thinking of this later and I thought where did this practice originate in the church over here. I could not think of it anywhere in the New Testament. I have always known it to take place from the time I first became a Christian and just accepted it as normal Christianity. I like your husbands response. Now I feel a little foolish when I think of everyone over there that I have been calling brother or sister so and so, their probably thinking how strange these americans. Now that I think about it, it does come across as artificial. Oh well we live and learn. Lord Bless, tell Trevor you mates have a good day as well. Gary
`G`day mate` says Trevor. `Didn`t want to make you feel foolish, it was just what you had been taught. And what sort of carpentry do you do?` It was me, Gary having a great laugh today & at all the strange things we did back when,so please feel free to laugh with us/me. In the `80`s the music group I was in used to get on the back of a truck with all our equipment & go carolling around the town. When we went over the railway line it sounded like, `Sil-ent night, Ho-oooo-ly night as we went over the tracks. Then we did a quick spin through main street & on down to the pub where the locals were sitting outside around tables having a quiet drink. Then along we came all keyed up to `preach them` the gospel!!!! All enthusiastic we`d sing, `God is better than football, God is better than booze...` tra la la etc.Like so relational!!!! Have a laugh, but we have grown since then & now have learnt to sit around the campfire, have a drink (alcoholic or not) & relate to people. So there are many strange behaviours that are now not culturally relevant, like `brother, sister, Shouting from a truck or head gear......` We, here, love to laugh at ourselves & appreciate the journey to be real in the Lord to others. How about you?
Hi Marilyn, We never got around to following through on the Biblical example of 'greeting one another with a holy kiss', but we (assembly located in the 'deep south, Alabama,') did observe the foot washing. As to greeting fellow believers as brother or sister I usually don't today unless we go 'way back' in The Lord, but then again we're not bound to customs and traditions, even if they are part of 'church' as we know it. I miss gathering together with fellow followers of Jesus for a day of worship, communion, love feast, and foot washing. Guess this thread has jumped course...not the first time that's happened.
Marilyn, I wondered about all the differences between our two cultures. When I first became a Christian I was involved with a street ministry that travelled around the states. The "brothers" LOl would spend time in prayer, then we would go out and play guitars to draw a crowd, and then someone would preach hell fire and brimstone. We mainly went to campus's where there would be a large group of college kid's but then we would go on the streets during the holidays. At these events we would get people who we called Heckler's, they would mock and ridicule the minister in front of everyone trying to get them to laugh at us. The one man who preached most had a gift of evangelism and he would convince them through scriptures that God was real and they needed repentance. We always had some who came forth and would cry out to God for their sins. Alcohol in America is considered a heinous sin in 98 per cent of the churches here. We have a huge problem with people getting wiped out totally drunk. Its not just a few drinks but they don't know went to stop. Americans do everything in excess. I think a lot of Christians have changed on this view now and drink some at least the younger ones. I knew some ministers that went to England to minister and was surprised after church when everyone ordered beer at the local pub. They did not have a problem with it just surprised because of the difference over here. I believe from the scriptures that John the Baptist was told by God not to drink, but the Lord and his disciples drank. I could give all the scriptures that refer to this but don't feel its necessary. Everything is to be done in moderation. I got into a heated discussion with my aunt over this and she said; Jesus turned the water into grape juice. If you get a chance check out the music section and listen to the music by Carl Seitzs, he was a good musician who went on to be with the Lord. I wanted to share a song on Andrews board concerning the end times, but did not know how to post it over there I'm still learning the computer somewhat. I just went there and can only find a few of his songs. Gwb has access to most of his music and I thought it was in that section. It's on here somewhere. Yes we do enjoy a good laugh as well and are down to earth. Lord Bless, Gary
"Americans do everything in excess" Hey now, I resemble that remark...But maybe you're right though. Funny, speaking of booze, when I was raised in a Baptist church alcohol was definitely a no-no...but now I know quite a few Baptist who drink...generally moderately. Intellectually I understand it's not unpardonable to have a glass of wine with a meal...I just can't seem to do it myself; but I guess I would if I was thirsty enough.
james wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 13:45 "Americans do everything in excess" Hey now, I resemble that remark...But maybe you're right though. Funny, speaking of booze, when I was raised in a Baptist church alcohol was definitely a no-no...but now I know quite a few Baptist who drink...generally moderately. Intellectually I understand it's not unpardonable to have a glass of wine with a meal...I just can't seem to do it myself; but I guess I would if I was thirsty enough. I think my tonsils are getting dry. Did you mean resent that remark or what you said above I "resemble" that remark. I had to read it again I thought you were saying you resemble being excessive. I think I know what you meant though. Still reading the book its harder for me to read on the computer for some reason, with a real book you can hold in your hand I read fairly fast. I am blessed by what I have read so far. James I did not know you were raised in the Baptist church when I was young my Grandma took me a few times to her Baptist church as I got older if anyone started to talk about religion I always told them I was a Baptist. I didn't know what that was but if Grandma was one it was good enough for me. I have noticed a change in a lot of churches in just that last five years or so. Gary
Firstly Gary I do want to humbly apologise for being insensitive about the `bro & sis,` naming. I though you were looking back 7 having a chuckle (we say laugh) but I see that you weren`t. So my comments would have not been very nice. Thanks for being gracious. Thinking about that `tradition,` it actually in one way sounds very caring to call each other that. And james, the foot washing sounds interesting. Was it often? Now for a confession we over here in Oz land do the `holy kiss,` though I think it is more a big bear hug with the kiss going in the air or sometimes smacking the cheek. Mainly to dear friends though & not to everyone, though of course some are in for all the hugs they can get. And now I know what you look like james - you resemble that remark! It`s morning here & I suppose you are all getting ready for bed so I`ll have to wait to hear your remarks.
Did you mean resent that remark or what you said above I "resemble" that remark. I had to read it again I thought you were saying you resemble being excessive. It's a line used by Groucho Marx back in the day. James I did not know you were raised in the Baptist church when I was young my Grandma took me a few times to her Baptist church as I got older if anyone started to talk about religion I always told them I was a Baptist. I didn't know what that was but if Grandma was one it was good enough for me. Yep, I was, and just keeping with some semblence of the thread, my grandma was Holiness/Pentacostal and she wore headcoverings, was a woman, and sang songs about angels. Marilyn, we only had foot washings maybe 2-3 times a year when we had 'love-feast'. btw: foot washing usually isn't that big deal to the washer, but it's very humbling to the one being washed. Of course it's following the example Jesus set when He washed the disciples feet.
james, Gary...... Since most of us wear shoes nowadays what do you think that would mean to us today? That is how would we show what Jesus meant in our culture today?
Marilyn Crow wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 18:36 james, Gary...... Since most of us wear shoes nowadays what do you think that would mean to us today? That is how would we show what Jesus meant in our culture today? I believe it's still similar, a foot is a foot, whether it's covered in dust or smelly from being in a shoe all day. It's symbolizing outwardly what the additude of the heart should be...a servant.
Thank you james. Yes the servant heart. I probably was meaning & should have said how could that be specifically shown instead of, or along side of the foot washing. To serve seems to have an aspect of being up close & personal. And we Westerners tend to shy away from things like that. I`ll give an example of what I`ve been led to do. I love to organise things. So, when I go & spend a few days at a friends place I organise (with her permission) her pantry & fridge & cupboards & clothes. She loves me to do that & I enjoy it each time as yes they get messy again. All her friends want me to do it for them, so it speaks as it were.
Marylin, I was raised on a creek bank and I now live one city block away from the mighty Ohio River. I live in an old Southern river town. You can come to visit me anytime! You can organize my house and I'll feed ya reeeeeal good! Lol I will also take you to The Kentucky Derby that is fifteen minutes away from me. Lol lol
Yum, yum my mouth is drooling. Cooking isn`t one of my favourite jobs but would love to try some of your Southern hospitality & Southern fried chicken etc. have to get some recipes from you perhaps when we have a `coffee break.`
I have to agree here after giving this some thought, that the angels play a bigger role in our lives then what I imagined. It's worth looking into, while trying to understand what role they do play. I was thinking at the time that many have been led astray by Angels of light. I did have a vivid dream one time and I could hear the Angels singing in worship, it was very beautiful music as I can recall, they were singing about our Savior. Gary
I've been going over James and Peter the last few days and here's another reference to angels that isn't very clear to me. "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with The Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." I Peter 1:12 I wasn't going to mention it, but since you have been thinking more about angels and their roles in GOD'S Kingdom and our day to day lives, I'll include this scripture. Although I can at least gander a guess as to this, maybe the angels wasn't explained the mysteries of The Kingdom and God's plan of salvation and so they too were eager to understand??? One thing I am certain of, I'm gratiful beyond words to describe that although I might not fully understand, at this time, everything concerning The Kingdom of God, His ways and plans; He has made that way of reconciliation unto Him through Jesus Christ and has revealed that unto me and given me a heart to receive it. Grace, Love, Mercy...we deserve NONE of it, yet "...for God SO loved...that He gave...His only...that whosoever..." Thank You Father, Thank You LORD Jesus
Quote: James Wrote: One thing I am certain of, I'm gratiful beyond words to describe that although I might not fully understand, at this time, everything concerning The Kingdom of God, His ways and plans; He has made that way of reconciliation unto Him through Jesus Christ and has revealed that unto me and given me a heart to receive it. Grace, Love, Mercy...we deserve NONE of it, yet "...for God SO loved...that He gave...His only...that whosoever..." Thank You Father, Thank You LORD Jesus I just read a news report about some police officers finding two cars in the bottom of a river in Oklahoma. It turns out in one car there was some teenagers who had been missing for forty years. They were going to a football game and just vanished into thin air. I thought about this how tragic that someone would only be given just a few years on this earth. Can you imagine 18 years and then its your time to go. Anyway I know what your saying, if I would of died while young I would of died in my sins never knowing the Lord. I guess we always have something to be thankful for. Concerning the angel issue, the more of these scriptures you keep digging up is making us all look bad. Oh well we live and learn. Gary
Hi James, Regarding 1 Peter 1: 12 concerning the angels, it is very interesting. The lead up verses help... `As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search & inquiry seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as he predicted the sufferings of Christ & the glories to follow. It was revealed to them they were not serving themselves but you, in these things ........things into which angels long to look.` As you said we are soooooo blessed. My thoughts are that the angels are not omniscient, all knowing like God & they do not know everything God is doing. But God is teaching them of His wisdom in how He deals with us. The fallen angels were into the `power,` thing whereas God with all power is balanced with humility, compassion, etc. These attributes of God would not have been seen in the wondrous realms above as all was peace & harmony (till rebellion by Satan.) `the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.` (1 Cor. 2: In the eternal ages we have much to look forward to, learning more of God & His wisdom, love & care. Marilyn.
Hi Marilyn and Gary, After posting this morning I was talking with a brother in The Lord about the statements about the angels' thoughts and desires mentioned in these passages. His input was that, as Marilyn brought up, the angels don't know everything, especially concerning grace (they haven't sinned and needed it...speaking of God's angels, not the fallen angels who serve Satan) and maybe they're learning of God's ultimate plan of salvation and restoration of His remnant as it unfolds. Maybe what Paul, Peter, James, and John preached and wrote was as new to them (the angels) as it was to the assemblies of the NT and us when we first heard it. As to making 'us look bad'...I know you're kidding...but maybe by questioning that which we don't know or admitting being unable to answer every question asked we can grow...if not so much in knowledge or wisdom, maybe in humility.
Humility....yes james, only by God`s grace am I changed. What a process.
James said: "One thing I am certain of, I'm gratiful beyond words to describe that although I might not fully understand, at this time, everything concerning The Kingdom of God, His ways and plans; He has made that way of reconciliation unto Him through Jesus Christ and has revealed that unto me and given me a heart to receive it. Grace, Love, Mercy...we deserve NONE of it, yet "...for God SO loved...that He gave...His only...that whosoever..." Thank You Father, Thank You LORD Jesus." The last few days I have been driving from Michigan to Texas to visit some relatives I haven't ever visited, and the one thing I am utterly amazed at is how many people there are. We all know there are billions on planet earth, but as I was driving it was so humbling that out of all the people on the planet, God chose me. He blessed me with salvation, the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues and let me hear teaching that would help me walk in faith and truth, saved my family and a multitude of other things. I have multiple Bibles to read, eyes to see to read, and ears to hear not only God's word taught, but am able to talk and hear others. And to think that God also gives us angels to help us and minister to us.
So true Sage. How far is it from Michigan (lakes?) to Texas? Is that from north to south? Will pray for you on your journey. Would love to have been travelling with you & seeing all the different sites & talking of Christ`s love for us. All the best, Sage, God is the best traveller & looking forward to more of your journey in the Lord.
Hello Marilyn, I live in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area. Our fall begins tomorrow, Sept. 22, when the tree's change color and it starts to get cool. It is a very beautiful time of year, and for many, including myself, it is the favorite time of year. Then, December 21 starts our winter. I love winter, with the cold and snow. There's nothing like a good snow storm on a weekend when I can sit inside and enjoy watching it, and playing with my dog out in the snow. Michigan is a very nice state to live in. I can't think of any other state I'd like to live. We have lakes, rivers, fishing, boating, hiking, camping, bike trails, places to walk in the woods and a whole lot of other things to do. I don't think you have snow where you live, right? The distance from where I live to Houston, Texas is about 1350 miles. I stopped in Springfield, Illinois to visit a museum about one of our greatest presidents: Abraham Lincoln. If you get a chance, do a little study on how God used him to free the slaves. Some people think he was a Christian and some don't, but no matter, he did a lot for this country. There is so much of God' beauty all around us. It would be fun if you were here to enjoy the sights but most of all, sharing about Jesus and all He has done and is doing for us. At least God has give all of us Overcomers Online to share.
Gary wrote on Tue, 03 September 2013 05:23 Quote: Sometimes when "God" speaks to us it is really the angel in our life and if you're discerning you can tell the difference. Hate to drop a bomb shell here. But could you please give me chapter and verse where this concept comes from. I would be very leery of other voices outside of the still small voice of the Spirit. I'm willing to change my view if I know where this is stated in the scripture? Secondly: Quote: Almost all of the work in a persons life ie answers to prayer, healing, protection, help, trials, chastisement etc etc is done by angels. Its his responsibility to get us safely into the eternal kingdom AND by the path God wants us to walk. That of course is not to negate our responsibility. We have an advocate with the Father which is of course Jesus the Son of God, I don't see where Angels are to go to God for us. Angels don't work to answer our prayers, our prayers are by faith to God who then makes the way. Again where in the New Testament does it show this action taking place? I am interested in finding out how you came to this conclusion through scriptures. If I can see this in the Bible I am willing to acknowledge that this teaching exists in scripture. Gary Gary, "I love you, man!" You so remind me of a bull in a china shop...in a good way, if that's possible. I continue to mull over the various activities the angels perform in scripture. Now it seems everywhere I look there's mention of angels doing God's bidding; from OT through Revelation. Protection, delivering messages from God, carrying out God's judgments, ect. As I said earlier, I've always asked The Father to give His angels charge over me to keep me in all my ways...but hadn't really meditated on their duties outside protection. Yesterdays "Morning By Morning" devotional by Charles Spurgeon was taken from Heb.1:13-14 where Paul says [refering to angels] "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" In his commentary Spurgeon says, "Angels are the unseen attendants of the saints of God; they bear us up in their hands, lest we dash our foot against a stone." While I haven't seen angels as the saints of Bible times often did, I still believe they are here around us performing whatever tasks God assigns them. I'm reading Revelation in conjunction with the discussions on Babylon and the Temple Mount in the Eschatology Section. The angels spoken of there in Revelation are carrying out very different functions, from the angel sent to John concerning the seven churches to the seven angels who poured the bowls of wrath/plagues out. Lot of activity by angels...
I haven't had a lot of time of late to be here But I did want to clarify one thing. Sometimes when "God" speaks to us it is really the angel in our life and if you're discerning you can tell the difference. I said that way above. What I meant was that when "the Lord" speaks to us sometimes it is the Holy Spirit and sometimes it is the angel who has charge over our life. People in the bible recognized that. Jacob at the end of his life spoke of the angel who accompanied him. Often the prophets received visons given by and accompanied by angels Sometimes I can tell the difference. To me that is just one the little issues that make having a spiritual life enjoyable.
Hi Mark, It seems to me you are tuning in to the wrong station. Angels appeared to people & spoke face to face, not in the mind. We as believers are to take `every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.` (2 Cor. 10: 5)We do not open ourselves to other voices but the Holy Spirit.
Quote: Mark Wrote: I haven't had a lot of time of late to be here But I did want to clarify one thing. Sometimes when "God" speaks to us it is really the angel in our life and if you're discerning you can tell the difference. I said that way above. What I meant was that when "the Lord" speaks to us sometimes it is the Holy Spirit and sometimes it is the angel who has charge over our life. People in the bible recognized that. Jacob at the end of his life spoke of the angel who accompanied him. Often the prophets received visons given by and accompanied by angels Sometimes I can tell the difference. To me that is just one the little issues that make having a spiritual life enjoyable. Quote: Marilyn wrote: Hi Mark, It seems to me you are tuning in to the wrong station. Angels appeared to people & spoke face to face, not in the mind. We as believers are to take `every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.` (2 Cor. 10: 5)We do not open ourselves to other voices but the Holy Spirit. I completely missed these posts. I don't see where Mark is saying anything about Angels speaking to our minds here. I think it may be good to look further into this area of the ministry of angels. I know they do play a role in men's lives. The scripture even tells us some have entertained angels unawares. So it is obvious that angels can come on the earth and walk around as mere men, or how else could we entertain them not knowing they are angels. I believe its a valid ministry on their part. There is the fine line as well. I saw on someones sight where they shared; an angel appeared in the meeting, when he took off one of his feathers fell out and this guy kept it as a souvenir. You can see it on his web site along with the gold dust and large gem stones that appeared out of no where. For one thing angels don't have wings, so this means no feathers. So who appeared in that meeting anyway? Like one brother stated, the angels are molting now. I guess that is part of the other extreme. But I do believe now, the angels play a greater role in our lives then what we realize. I need to look into this further. Gary
I'm reading through the Bible in a different way than I've ever gone about it. Starting Jan.1 I read one chapter in Genesis and one chapter in Matthew each day and after two years the entire Bible has been read with the NT and Psalms twice.(it's a group thing where the entire congregation does this and often the pastor will go over the prior week's readings and teach/share and open the floor to anyone who has anything they want to share that they feel The Lord revealed to them from their readings; interesting) So I'm still noticing how often God uses "The Angel of The LORD" in revealing His desires/plans/will to man. Todays reading (Gen.22) starts off with God telling Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt offering. Then just as Abraham was about to fulfill his obedience unto God by raising the knife to slay Isaac, "The Angel of The LORD" spoke to him out of heaven. I remember Gary suggesting God didn't use The Angel of The Lord in the NT and Mark mentioning Acts 8:26 where Philip was instructed where to go by 'The Angel of The Lord'. It made me wonder if maybe The Angel of The LORD in the OT was The Holy Spirit in the NT. Though I lean more toward It being God Himself, or Jesus. I read several 'experts' opinions on this and there were various opinions based on what they each had been taught or understood the Hebrew words to 'really' mean. It seems that the writers (in this case, Moses) at times use God speaking and 'The Angel of The Lord' as almost interchangeable. So anyone has any 'light' they can shine on this? Obviously there are instances where there are literally angels sent to carry out God's Will.(The two angels who were sent to destroy Sodom and rescue Lot<actually they are called men in Gen.19:10>) And then we find in Gen.18 1-3 that 'The LORD' appeared unto Abraham as 'three men', angels? God The Father, Jesus The Son, The Holy Spirit? In verse 13 it says, "And The LORD said..." Then in verse 16 it says that the 'men' rose up.
I've always heard that in the new testament the phrase, "angel of the Lord," after the birth of Jesus, is never used with the definite article, as in "THE" angel of the Lord. When the old testament uses the phrase --the Angel (Malek) of Yahveh it is often understood as an appearance of God Himself, in other words --a Theophany or Christophany. In all of the passages that I looked up in the NT, including the Acts 8:28 passage, the definite article, (English="The") is not there and so it could be translated "an" angel of the Lord. I'm not sure I'd want to build a doctrine on the presence or lack of a definite article but it is an interesting subject. Apparently the Greek language doesn't have an indefinite article (like "a" or "an") but it does have a definite article ("the"). This indicates that if the definite article is used it is used for a reason. The importance of the omission of the definite article is a little murky. In English when you hear things like, "a man walked into the local Walmart to buy a gun," the identity of the man may or may not be important... maybe the focus is more on the gun? Both nouns are used with indefinite articles so it is a little hard to tell where the emphasis is being placed. But if someone said, "THE man walked into the local Walmart to buy a gun," then you know the emphasis is to be placed on the fact that a particular man (THE man) is the focus. If someone says "a man walked into the local Walmart to buy THE gun," then you'd want to know more about the gun (what type, caliber, etc..) In short, I'm saying that the presence of the definite article is more important than the absence of the definite article, but the absence of the article may still be significant. Clear as mud?? <grin> Blessings, William
james wrote on Fri, 20 September 2013 07:37 I've been going over James and Peter the last few days and here's another reference to angels that isn't very clear to me. "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with The Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." I Peter 1:12 I wasn't going to mention it, but since you have been thinking more about angels and their roles in GOD'S Kingdom and our day to day lives, I'll include this scripture. Although I can at least gander a guess as to this, maybe the angels wasn't explained the mysteries of The Kingdom and God's plan of salvation and so they too were eager to understand??? I've been thinking about The Mystery of The Kingdom and how it was a hidden secret through the ages (Romans 16:25)(Ephesians 3:3-5 &8-10) and how even those who prophesied of the grace that was to come never had it revealed unto them.(I Peter 1:10-12) Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob didn't know God's plan to redeem man. David and Isaiah prophesied of the coming Messiah, yet they didn't have the revelation of The Church and God's eternal plan of redemption through Jesus Christ. And even the disciples didn't 'get it' until after Jesus had risen from the dead. I guess I just hadn't thought it through, John, Peter, and James (Jesus' closest disciples) didn't understand what Jesus had explained to them about having to suffer and die and He told them He would rise again (Matt.26:32) He had foretold them these truths, yet they weren't waiting outside the tomb for Him to come out, they had gone back to their fishing with broken hearts and dreams.(John 21:3) Then after He had risen He explained (Luke 24:44-49) and opened their spiritual eyes, and after Pentecost and receiving The Holy Spirit they preached the message of The Gospel (Acts 2:38-39) And while the apostles preached repentance and belief in Jesus Christ for salvation, Paul had the deeper revelation and was given the responsibility to take Jesus' message of justification through faith in Him unto the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.(Acts 9:15-16) After reading Romans chapter 11 and Paul's explaining the mystery of God's plan and His plan of reconciliation of Israel and warning to us not to become highminded and boast, that it was God's plan from the beginning he ends with this statement: "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! Rom.11:33 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true and honest, think on these things....."
william wrote on Tue, 21 January 2014 10:46 When the old testament uses the phrase --the Angel (Malek) of Yahveh it is often understood as an appearance of God Himself, in other words --a Theophany or Christophany. Blessings, William Since we started talking a little bit about angels and their various functions as shown throughout The Word, I've been taking notice of and giving thought to each time I come across mention of them. And with Genesis there are a lot of references to angels...as well as The Angel of The LORD. Two things came together this morning during my devotion time with The Lord; One was the reference to "The Angel" found in Genesis 48:16 (Jacob/Israel was blessing his sons before his death and when he came to Joseph he said:) "...God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which feed me all my life long until this day, v16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil..." We know angels don't redeem us, the only One who can Redeem man is Jesus Christ. The second thing was the mention of the word Theophany or Theophanies. I heard the word while watching a Bible teacher teaching on the appearances of God (theophanies) btw: theophany means a visible appearance/manifestation of God. It all seemed to become clearer to me(not that I was totally without any understanding, I just didn't see or understand as much before as I am beginning to now.) Another thing that the teacher mentioned that made me go,"hummm!" was where it was mentioned back in Genesis 18:1-8 that The LORD appeared unto Abram in the form of three men...and that when Abram offered them food, verse eight, "...and they did eat." I hadn't thought of angels eating food before, but although I don't believe they 'have' to eat, they can. I remember Jesus after His resurrection ate fish and bread with His disciples. (Luke 24:41-43 and John 21:10-13) Thanks William...now I know more of what you were talking about...<grin>
Hi James, I thought you had a good point there - Quote: (Gen.48)`v16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil..." We know angels don't redeem us, the only One who can Redeem man is Jesus Christ.` I also see that what the `angel` is doing shows it is the Lord. For eg. The `angel` at the golden altar, (Rev. 8: 3) shows Christ interceding to the Father. We know that Christ is the only mediator between God & man. Also the mighty `angel` (Rev. 10: 1 c/- Deut. 32: 40)showing Christ swearing by Himself. (Heb. 6: 13) Another reason we can tell if the angel or a `man,` is Christ, is when He receives worship. eg. Joshua 5: 13 - 15. Here the Lord comes as a `man,` and is bowed down to. Then in Rev. 19:10 we see an angel telling John not to worship him as he is a `fellow servant.` Interesting discussion. Marilyn.
I was reading today in II Kings 19 where the king of Assyria was threatening Hezekiah and Judah (once again) and Isaiah prophesied that God would protect His remnant and they would not be taken by Sennacherib King of Assyria. In II King 19:35 we're told that..."And it came to pass that night, that the angel of The LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses." That's 185,000 soldiers killed at one time by God in defense of His chosen people. Again I find it amazing that Israel could turn from The Living God to serve and worship the gods of other nations who were made by men's hands and totally powerless to save those who worshipped them. Yet they did, time after time. And even more amazing is the love of God shown in keeping His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in that He always forgave them [and continues to forgive us today, when we repent] and blessed them even when He knew they would turn from Him with the next generation...over and over again.
The angels are embarrassed and they will not help you. The same thing happens when a Christian bring a christmas tree into there house the angels stay outside. I honestly don't see where you have any biblical basis for this line of thinking. I know someone who puts up around 18 trees, (no exaggeration), one in every room some have two, and then on the outside of the house they have several out front, in the back and side yards fully decorated. The house looks like a shrine. According to this line of thinking the angels would probably go three or four blocks away, of course they have to deal with all the neighborhood trees outside as well. It says in the Bible; I will never leave you nor forsake you. Your not seeing this through the eyes of God. In Bible College when ever I wrote a paper I was never allowed to just quote someone without proving why I agreed with them from scripture. Everything had to be backed up with scriptures. I don't see where we can throw in thoughts and ideas that are not mentioned in the Bible, if that were the case everybody could carry the scriptures to the extreme. Don't you think this is adding to the Bible which were warned against? I feel like a lot of strange doctrines we have today is because people add some scenario to the scriptures that do not exist. Not trying to chide you here but surprised your saying this. In Him, Gary
Don't know if I'm in "the choir " or not but I've written quite a bit about the christmas 🎄 and Santa Claus 🎅 in opposition to these traditions of man that Christianity has wholeheartedly adopted. Also Easter rabbits and eggs.... I abandoned those practices over 40 years ago (and I'm almost certain most on this forum has as well)
Toby wrote on Tue, 28 April 2020 16:42 Maybe your in the warm up band, they need you over in Gary's neighborhood. My neighborhoods not the one I speaking of, that neighborhood is three hours from here in Muncie. What I am saying is: 18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; "I find no where does it say the angels leave the house when a Christmas tree is present in a home." I do not celebrate christmas and I am aware of all the roman pagan gods that were celebrated on December 25th. The Roman Catholics introduced Christmas into Christianity. Tammuz was worshiped long before this time period. Besides I have yet to see someone bow before the tree to worship it. What your saying about christmas is correct but to say the angels leave the family and go else where is what I am talking about. Not found in the scriptures.