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items: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: *** What is the Biblical Meaning of the Word "Faith"? *** Grace and faith are the two most important words in the entire Bible! Because: “By grace you have been saved, through faith; This is not your own doing: it is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast.” We are saved by Grace… Grace… is not our own doing! Grace… is the gift of God! Grace… is not a result of anything we’ve done! It is by Grace… so that no one may boast. Through faith… Faith… is not our own doing! Titus 3:4-5 Faith… is the gift of God! Romans 12:3 Faith… is not a result of anything we’ve done! 1Cor 15:10, Ephesians 2:10 Through faith… so that no one may boast. 2Peter 1:2-3, 1Peter 1:2-5, Galatians 6:14, 2Cor 10:17 You would think that every Christian would know the meaning of these two words: Since correctly understanding and believing them are the foundation of our salvation. But this has not been my experience. I have asked numerous “christians” for the definitions of grace and faith, and without fail these are the responses I have gotten: Grace is the undeserved favor of God. And, quoting Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” I have found that “christians” (unsaved "religious" people) and even many true Christians also believe: Faith is unquestioning belief; belief without any reason or evidence whatsoever: what some call “blind faith”. AND… Although most “christians”, and even some true Christians, believe there is some kind of mysterious aspect to “faith”; It is only “charismatics” following “The Faith Message” who believe that faith is an actual, tangible, spiritual substance; a real spiritual power which is released by us through the act of “believing”: a power that we are required to obtain for ourselves; to store it up; to strengthen it; so that we will become “strong in faith”. They believe it is the same spiritual power that God used to make the universe: “Through [the spiritual substance of] f…
creator: A_Smoking_Flax
date: 2013-05-28T06:28:06-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Hi Tom, Regarding apostles . . . You said: -------------- Christians have never been without God’s apostles or prophets because God tells us: We are of the household of God; and the household of God is built upon “the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” ...and more ... --------------- I would add that Eph 4 says apolstles are part of the church just like pastors. and that the New Testament pattern is that apostles were part of the normal church Which is why I say something is wrong since we never have seen apostles. ============================================================ ==== ============================================================ ==== I think I read you to say that lack of apostles is an indicator that a church (which is, of course, the people) is false - meaning that real believers will have apostles while non-believers (even if sincerely self deceived) will not. You said: ====================== The Church of God has never been without His apostles and prophets; God’s people never will be without apostles and prophets as long as we continue to listen to/believe/obey God’s Word The Bible. It is religious man’s “church” that is without God’s apostles and prophets. Any child of God can listen to/believe/obey any of God’s true apostles and prophets any time we desire; with complete confidence and assurance that we are hearing The Eternal Word of God written for us at this present time: and this same Word will teach us throughout all of eternity. ===================== The simple logic of what you say is neat and tidy. So let's just all join ourselves to the churches where the apostles are. If we are self-deceived, false believers, they can show us our errors. Better to find out now rather than later. Many of us would have done this very thing except there are no apostles. Your words read as if there are apostles. How could you possibly have known of these men for even one day and not told us? Please let…
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-05-28T20:34:45-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Quote: Tom Wrote: I tried to show him the clear promises of Jesus that we have eternal life and cannot lose it: It is possible to lose ones salvation. To go back into the world and partake of sin is the ticket to lose it. If this is not so why are there so many admonitions in the Word to avoid certain things in the world? Namely "sin".... Quote: I left because I knew that I wasn’t a very good “Overcomer”. This does not sound like a good reason to leave anything. Its like me saying, I left my job because I could not build a house as good as the other guys on the jobsite. I know I am not as good a carpenter as them. Jesus accepts everyone at every level, if we have a heart to seek and obey. 2 Corinthians 10:12-13 12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. 13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. Anyway this is all water under the bridge, what took place twenty years ago proves nothing. What matters is, Are we in right standing with the Lord today? Today is the day of salvation what took place in the past is done and over with, we must all move on into a new chapter in our lives. Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-05-29T10:43:12-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: I'm sorry Jman, you seem to have missed my point: God's true apostles are still here: the Word of God that they taught, is still here for us to read, learn from and obey; in God's Word The Bible. I suppose that if anyone has successfully completed, all the teachings of Paul, John, Peter, etc. (by that I mean they are walking in perfection relating to everything that Jesus, through His apostles, has admonished us to think, say and do) I could see why they might need to find "new" apostles. As for myself, I am so far behind in following/obeying the written Word of God that I do not personally see the need for any "new" apostles, or, "new" revelations. God's Word is eternal; for all time and beyond; God's true apostles are still here for us as we follow God through His Word The Bible. All scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly equipped unto all good works. Though... This is not the main point of my post. I think that we should try to take the false gospel of “the faith message” first. The "faith message" is based upon wrong definitions of the words "faith" and "substance". Therefore, the "faith message" is a false gospel. We who have believed it were/are on the wrong track; we have been following men and not God. This is why there are no signs ("signs" are not the main issue with God, see Luke 16:27-31, besides, "signs" prove nothing, if you are not following God’s Word). We are not preaching the gospel according to God's Word The Bible. Whatever the “faith” teachers taught us (with few exceptions) is based upon the ideas of men presented as "biblical/christian", but they are not based upon the clear teaching of God's Word The Bible. Christians will see this because even though we followed these men for a time, we are Jesus' sheep and we will always be brought back to Jesus. John 10:4-5,25-30 Tom
creator: A_Smoking_Flax
date: 2013-05-29T20:02:39-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Hi Tom You said : God's true apostles are still here: the Word of God that they taught, is still here for us to read, learn from and obey; in God's Word The Bible. ======== thanks for responding. Now I know what you mean. Jman ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 149 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-05-29T20:20:17-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Gary… Let me take your second point first. As a Christian carpenter, if my work is not up to snuff, I am obligated to leave; so as not to give a bad witness to others. I wasn’t measuring myself against others: What drove me to leave the “church” wasn’t a concern about anyone else: I was deeply concerned about my own imperfections, my own sin! I was afraid of the effect my sin would have on our assembly being used of God for the “Greater Works” ministry He was preparing them for. I left for the benefit of the other “Overcomers”. I left to stop any hindrances to the “assembly” that may have been due to my lack of perfection. The man who was our “anointed” “pastor” called me on the phone to ask me why I had not been coming to the meetings. He actually had no idea why he was calling, or that we had previously talked about my situation. He was just giving me a “courtesy call”; you know, something a “pastor” is required to do every once in a while; to show people that he really cares. Anyway: this “anointed” “pastor” agreed with my reasons for staying away, and he encouraged me not to come back until I “got things straightened out” on my own. Ironically, he had just recently “taught” that anyone who feels that they should stay away from the meetings/”church” to get themselves “straightened out” on their own, is not doing the right thing. He pointed out that we are required to stay the course and keep coming to the “church” because that is the only way to “get things straightened out”. (Why he felt that this recent message did not apply to me, I can’t be sure; but, personally, I don’t think that he liked me very much. I think he was glad to find a way to be rid of me — apart from just telling me he didn’t want me in his “church”.) Now to your belief that you can lose your salvation: All I can say is, many people believe this man-made doctrine, but, I no longer believe men. Because, either I choose to believe what men say. Or, I choose to believe Jesus. And: I am persuaded …
creator: A_Smoking_Flax
date: 2013-05-30T01:00:19-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Tom, Regarding your premise that it is impossible to loose one's genuine salvation . . . How do you deal with Heb 6:4-6 ?
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-05-30T04:19:45-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Tom. There is so much you say regarding faith that I cannot boil it down into clear concepts. Could you please walk through a modern faith example of a person asking God for a specific thing. Say, for example, they have a sore throat, and they are going to ask for it to be healed. Go ahead and leave out Heb 11:1 Please describe the person's application of Mk 11:24 (believe receive now and shall have it later). Please be concise. Maybe draw a contrast between what you are saying and how you remember it was taught. Thanks. Jman -
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-05-30T04:41:12-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: I'd like to respond to and discuss a number of the issues you brought up but it will have to wait for the weekend. See you then
creator: Mark L
date: 2013-05-30T05:36:30-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Tom, I just went through the NT to see what did God say about faith and healing. This is just something I wanted to do so I would have better understanding of what the Bible is saying and not so much what I was taught it was saying. Invariably I came away with the conclusion that Jesus is the one who was always bringing up a persons faith in Him. The NT says, when the Son of Man returns will He find faith. You do not realize how many times I have looked to the Lord by faith that He always came through for me. I have not come to some complete understanding of every aspect but I do know it works. Will share more later on your other responses, thanks for being patient on this matter here, must contemplate all the subject matter. GaryB
creator: Gary
date: 2013-05-30T11:00:16-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Tom, One more quick note. I must say that if we live in gross sin, I cannot expect a Holy God just to overlook some sin. Sin is an abomination to the Lord. God sent His Son to the cross to make a way to forgive us of our sins and also to make a way where we can live above sin and not be slaves to it. If we sin we have an advocate with the Father who will cleanse us of sin if we repent and confess it to Him. But to continue serving sin and trying to find some loop hole in the Bible to excuse it I do not think this is something the Lord would support. He is the one who made us free so we do not have to serve sin in our bodies. If we shun sin and forsake it in our lives, then yes we will have the eternal state to look forward to, and nothing will pluck us out of the hands of a Holy God. Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-05-30T11:13:26-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: I have learned that faith works by going through grace, first. Is this a part of what you are trying to convey?
creator: GWB
date: 2013-05-30T14:47:58-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: I have taken a very quick look at your post here and really disagree with much of what you said. You also ( with no criticism intended) don't seem to have a very solid grasp of the faith message and what was actually taught. Here is an example speaking of salvation . . . Sounds right, it is what the Bible says. But, we were never told to read the second half of the verse, which adds: “Because it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” The teaching was that as we persevere God preserves. There is an abundance of scripture speaking to both sides of the issue. All you have done is quote all the vs that speak to God preserving. Which he does. But there is also an obligation on us to hold fast to it. Much scripture on that point. You are confusing God's elective process which starts and ends in Gods own heart with the work of salvation in this world. Gods preserves as we persevere. A two way street with both of us involved. And as anyone who has gone through anything serious knows sometimes it is God doing a whole lot of preserving Also you seem to be confusing a lot of info from the "word of faith" people with the faith message. And admittedly there is a lot of everlap. But even leaving aside that most of them teach JDS they go far too far with their teaching on faith. I saw that with just a quick reading of your post here. Also HEF did not teach sinless perfection in this life. He tauht there was a perfection attainable here but it is mainly a perfection of maturity the fruits of the spirit and love. That is right in the deeper life book. If I have misrepresented your positions here I apologize. I have only had time to do a quick reading.
creator: Mark L
date: 2013-05-30T16:31:24-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Please… Before we go any further… We can discuss the various subjects in my post at a later date, I you wish. But, for the present: As a starting point, we need to establish which definition is true according to God’s Word: Is Biblical faith: An actual, tangible, Spiritual Substance; a real Spiritual Power which is released by us through the act of “believing”: A Power that we are required to obtain for ourselves; to store it up; to strengthen it; so that we will become “strong in faith”. The same Spiritual Substance of Power that God used to make the universe: Through [the spiritual substance of] faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. We understand that it was through the spiritual substance of faith that God made everything by speaking the Word of Faith. Or, Is Biblical faith: Persuasion in what God says, which causes us to Believe God, and to Trust in God, and Rely on God alone to fulfill His Promises? Can we please first establish the Biblical definitions of the words “faith” and “substance”? If you haven’t done so; please look them up in “Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible”. If I am wrong about the clear Biblical meaning of the Greek words pistis “faith” and hupostasis “sub-stance”: Explain how I have misunderstood them. If I am wrong about the clear Biblical meaning of the Greek words pistis “faith” and hupostasis “sub-stance”: What do they actually mean, and where did you get your definitions? I am only interested in what God means when He uses a Word: what do these Words mean according to God’s Word The Bible? If faith means Persuasion, belief, trust and reliance on God, and… Sub-stance means Foundation: Then “The Faith Message” is a false gospel, whose foundation is the man-made idea that “faith is a Spiritual Substance of Power”. This is the topic I would like to explore with you. Please leave the other topics for some later date. His servant and yours Tom P.S. If you do not have a “Strong’s”, you can get one with the…
creator: A_Smoking_Flax
date: 2013-05-30T22:38:33-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Tom, Regarding faith . . . I say faith is believe you receive when you pray. - comes from Mk 11:24 Definitions from the 1800's, 1900's, or 2000's are not proving anything. You need to demonstrate the common word usage in the first century - the Bible was written to normal people of that era not the 1800's. If you want to remove Heb 11:1 ( the substance idea ) then go ahead . . . for yourself. You can still have a vibrant faith doctrine. And if others believe faith is a spiritual substance it is not a "false gospel". You can call it persuasion or anything you want as long as you believe you receive when you pray = BRWP . This BRWP faith is how people get saved and how they get other things from God. Please communicate how your faith concept works if it is different than BRWP. This will be the main point of discussions about what faith is. ======================= Beyond that you seem to be debating the irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints of Calvinism. This debate is never ending if someone wants to haggle because it contrasts man's responsibility and freewill over against God's sovereignty, predestination and election of the saints, and foreknowledge of all man's (free) choices. Pretty heavy stuff. This Calvanism debate is not worth doing in my opinion. "Strong" proof texts can be had on both sides of the issue. In the end both sides of the debate are Biblically true even though they seem contradictory to our limited minds. If you do not want to address Heb 6:4-6 regarding loosing a genuine salvation then don't, but you can convince no one of your ideas if they are manifestly contrary to Scripture. ========================== Jman ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 150 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives u…
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-05-31T04:10:06-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Quote: Tom wrote: Please… Before we go any further… We can discuss the various subjects in my post at a later date, I you wish. But, for the present: As a starting point, we need to establish which definition is true according to God’s Word: I can understand your concern not to veer off of a topic. Here is my thinking on this, the Word of God is spiritually discerned and to be able to understand what the Spirit of God is showing us, we must be walking in the Spirit. If a person is involved in sin and has sin in their lives then they become blinded to the Word of God, at that point we're only disputing over "words" and generally its something pulled out of context. Romans 6:13-15 I do think it is all tied in together and is relative, in this case because you are claiming that the faith message is a false gospel. Quote: Tom Wrote: I think that we should try to take the false gospel of “the faith message” first. Tom For one thing the faith message is not a "Gospel". There are only four Gospels. The faith message is something that Jesus mentions to each individual He came in contact with while ministering. That is why "He said", you have little faith, no faith, great faith, your faith has made you whole, etc. etc.. This message is within the Gospels. Secondly the scripture you give in Hebrews 11:1 needs to be taken into context with all the following verses which explain what God is trying to show about those with faith. So I hope you can see and understand that sin blinded those in Israel from the things of God, and it can blind a man today as well. This is why the Bible speaks against sin in a believers life. This is my main concern here that any individual with admitted sin in their life can be blinded to the simple truths found in the Bible. This is why I think we should address the whole subject matter that you shared here. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,…
creator: Gary
date: 2013-05-31T13:05:20-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: A_Smoking_Flax wrote on Tue, 28 May 2013 01:28 Am I misunderstanding what is going on, or has the original post been deleted? By Tom?, William?, or a moderator? How can the post be discussed if it can't be read(especially since it's so long...after all, it took Tom months to write, and it's taken me days to go through it) Hope it's not a case of someone being offended(taking their ball and going home.) I have noticed that almost EVERYONE has logged on to read the post and yet only a few have replied...My excuse,lol, is that my computer time is limited, so imagine my supprise today when I logged in to find 15 comments. BTW: I don't know if Tom did this with everyone or not but I have the entire post as a PM, if others do they can still go over the contents of the post. While I've always thought there were mis-applications of the Biblical truth of FAITH (probably always has been and always will be...myself included) and how to apply it to daily life, I am "PERSUADED" that God's Word is true. And I believe not only in the "promises ", but I believe in He who made the promises, God Himself. Also, for those who enjoy debating with others, you can't be a very successful debater if you're easily offended by someone taking an opposing viewpoint. If you're convienced you're 'right' concerning the 'faith message' being false, then prove it. Again when one says 'faith message' that doesn't always mean the same thing to every person. I believe the 'faith message' as taught by those who also teach the 'prosperity message' today as seen usually on TBN, GodTV, The Church Channel, ect. are teaching a false 'gospel/message'. Though human logic will easily lead a person to 'like' this 'gospel'...(remember, gospel means good news) and the easy to follow directions of giving<sowing> X amout of money in order to get X times 100 back is indeed 'good news' to those who are motivated by greed and self-centerness. Final thought, if true faith is present in our lives (faith that we've experi…
creator: james
date: 2013-06-01T18:00:04-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Gillyann, I am Sorry that I took so long to answer you. Yes, you are correct. If it wasn't for The Grace of God I wouldn't be saved, or able to understand Him, believe Him, or obey Him. Because by grace we are saved through persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in Him; and that is not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Now unto him that is able to keep us from falling, and to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen. His servant and yours Tom
creator: A_Smoking_Flax
date: 2013-06-01T21:05:57-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Quote: A_Smoking_Flax wrote on Tue, 28 May 2013 01:28 Quote: James Wrote: Am I misunderstanding what is going on, or has the original post been deleted? By Tom?, William?, or a moderator? How can the post be discussed if it can't be read(especially since it's so long...after all, it took Tom months to write, and it's taken me days to go through it) Hope it's not a case of someone being offended(taking their ball and going home.) You Alabaminions do have a sense of humor.
creator: Gary
date: 2013-06-02T10:29:45-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Biblical faith means: Being so persuaded by what our heavenly Father says in His Word, that it causes us to believe what He says, and we then trust in Him, and rely on Him alone to do what He promised in His Word The Bible. I have no problem with that at all. But you are setting that against faith being what one uses to believe "with" In other words it is not just mental assent. We are believing with the heart. Faith is the persuasion or foundation with which we respond to God. It is the evidence we have the answer we seek. It is by grace through faith. His unmerited favor upon us in causing us to hear the gospel. It is that faith (persuasion foundation evidence) that God uses to make the answer out of. In this case the cleansing and renewal of a persons life.
creator: Mark L
date: 2013-06-02T14:48:19-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Gal.3:6 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8 "...Obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Is this not "blind faith " ? Abraham believed God was who He revealed Himself to be, and that He would do what He promised him He would do...he didn't attempt to 'reason it out' or grasp it with his intellect...he believed and obeyed...and as promised, God delivered. "Faith never knows where it is being lead, but it loves and knows the One who is leading." Oswald Chambers "Let God be true but every man a liar, is the language of true faith." A W Tozer
creator: james
date: 2013-06-07T14:21:18-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: PLEASE! PLEASE! Read the Biblical definitions of the words “faith” and “substance” before you continue to teach me about “the faith message”. The same “faith message” that I have known and understood for 33 years. The same “faith message” that I followed, with full knowledge and understanding, for six years, i.e., I lived by “faith” for six years. Please do not attempt to ignore my simple request to go to “Strong’s” and read these definitions for yourself because of an unfounded presupposition: That I have never been a follower of “the faith message” or never actually understood “the faith message”. I was raised in “the faith message”. I know everything that you know about “the faith message”. I understand everything that you understand about “the faith message”. I believed everything that you believe about “the faith message”. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- I am asking each of you that have participated in this post, here and in the original post in “Theological Doctrine” under the heading “The Occult”, to answer this one question before we continue: MARK L, WILLIAM, GILLYANN, JAMES, GARY, RON, SUE, AND “JMAN”: HAVE YOU LOOKED UP THE DEFINITION OF THE WORDS “FAITH” AND “SUB-STANCE” IN “STRONG’S EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE OF THE BIBLE”? ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- The Topic of My Post; The Topic That I Wish To Discuss, Is: What Is The Biblical Meaning Of The Word Translated “Faith”? PLEASE LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF THE WORDS PISTIS/FAITH AND HUPOSTASIS/SUB-STANCE IN “STRONG’S EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE OF THE BIBLE”. AND EXPLAIN TO ME HOW I HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD THE CLEAR MEANING OF THESE TWO SIMPLE WORDS? ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------…
creator: A_Smoking_Flax
date: 2013-06-08T20:51:21-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: james wrote on Sat, 01 June 2013 13:00 While I've always thought there were mis-applications of the Biblical truth of FAITH (probably always has been and always will be...myself included) and how to apply it to daily life, I am "PERSUADED" that God's Word is true. And I believe not only in the "promises ", but I believe in He who made the promises, God Himself. Tom, First I doubt any of us could teach you anything, so don't presume that I'm trying. And I did look the two words up as you requested. Actually I'm not even sure what your point is, to me it seems that you're convienced that if a person (Christian/christian) doesn't or didn't define the words as you chose to, or happen to use the same reference books (Strong's) you use then they don't know or have true Biblical faith. Some use F-A-I-T-H...Forsaking All I Trust Him. Others use what the Bible says, Heb.11:1, yet those who are born again know that regardless of how one attempts to articulates what they have experienced and know they have received of God, their faith is in God and God alone. And speaking for myself only, but being fairly confident in what the other members here believe, I don't think anyone would or has ever disagreed with the definitions found in Strong's that you copied. Bottom line...I'm saved by faith (believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what Jesus did on my behalf at Calvary in paying for my sins with His sinless, pure, Holy Blood, because He alone was/is the acceptable sacrifice. I'm healed by faith (by believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what God's Word tells me that Jesus did on my behalf (by His stripes I am healed) and so it goes for whatever I'm trusting/believing Him for...protection, deliverance, wisdom, forgiveness, mercy, producing fruit of righteousness, ect. I receive it from Him by believing, asking, and expecting...because I'm an overcomer? NO! because I'm special above others? NO! No, I receive because I am trusting Him to do what He said He would…
creator: james
date: 2013-06-09T02:05:00-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: james wrote on Sat, 08 June 2013 21:05 james wrote on Sat, 01 June 2013 13:00 While I've always thought there were mis-applications of the Biblical truth of FAITH (probably always has been and always will be...myself included) and how to apply it to daily life, I am "PERSUADED" that God's Word is true. And I believe not only in the "promises ", but I believe in He who made the promises, God Himself. Tom, First I doubt any of us could teach you anything, so don't presume that I'm trying. And I did look the two words up as you requested. Actually I'm not even sure what your point is, to me it seems that you're convienced that if a person (Christian/christian) doesn't or didn't define the words as you chose to, or happen to use the same reference books (Strong's) you use then they don't know or have true Biblical faith. Some use F-A-I-T-H...Forsaking All I Trust Him. Others use what the Bible says, Heb.11:1, yet those who are born again know that regardless of how one attempts to articulates what they have experienced and know they have received of God, their faith is in God and God alone. And speaking for myself only, but being fairly confident in what the other members here believe, I don't think anyone would or has ever disagreed with the definitions found in Strong's that you copied. Bottom line...I'm saved by faith (believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what Jesus did on my behalf at Calvary in paying for my sins with His sinless, pure, Holy Blood, because He alone was/is the acceptable sacrifice. I'm healed by faith (by believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what God's Word tells me that Jesus did on my behalf (by His stripes I am healed) and so it goes for whatever I'm trusting/believing Him for...protection, deliverance, wisdom, forgiveness, mercy, producing fruit of righteousness, ect. I receive it from Him by believing, asking, and expecting...because I'm an overcomer? NO! because I'm special above others? NO! No, I receive because I am t…
creator: william
date: 2013-06-09T02:26:36-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Hi Tom, As you know the word for substance in Heb 11:1 is "hupostasis." If you do an internet search for "hupostasis in Bible" and check out some of the top Google responses you will find that the way we used to say it is a spiritual substance is validated by scholars as one possible definition of hupostasis. ================================ 1) Would you accept that we are all in agreement that faith is believing God? That it is done by believing you receive when you pray? That it operates because believers are fully PERSUADED that God will do what is promissed? 2) Would you accept that faith as a spiritual substance (as taught) is a possible interpretation of Heb 11:1? --- Assuming you agree with these two topics then maybe move on to discuss if we were too proud of our faith or too focussed on ourselves in place of God. Seems I remember you making those points. But drop the attacks that we had a false gospel and that the faith message was incorrect. And drop the the idea that using word definitions from Strongs and modern English dictionaries is enough to make doctrine. Knowing the Greek word definitions requires knowing the Greek definitions used by the common people in the first century - something we all go to scholars for - Thayers and Vines are both more insightful than Strongs. Also a Greek lexicon is pretty neat - a listing of every usage of each Greek word in the New Testament. ================================= Regarding the word definitions for faith and substance . . . Faith is "believe you receive when you pray" - comes from being fully persuaded, and persuasion comes from Word of God - Rom 10:17 ----- hupostasis can mean: underlying essence essence or substance - that which stands under the outward form that which has foundation, is firm that which has actual existence a substance, real being the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing (do the Google search and note the scholars) so we are allowed to believe this as taught Jman ==============…
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-06-09T04:19:23-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Jman has a good point which we see verified in almost every dictionary/lexicon dealing with words and their meanings. For instance, when you look up any word you'll usually find multiple meanings of that word. Context determines the particular meaning. Speaking generally, the particular meaning that is adopted for a particular context excludes the other meanings. I say generally, because there may be times when the ideas expressed in the other primary or secondary senses help us to understand the fuller idea of the word but the job of the translator is to give us the best definition --the one that best expresses the intentions of the writer. As a southerner I might say something like --"I walked into the 7/11 and bought me ah coke". Someone unfamiliar with southern culture might translate the sense of my words and conclude that I bought me a Coca-Cola (a registered trademark of The Coca-Cola Company). A person from the eastern seaboard might get closer to the meaning by saying that I had bought a "soda". A Hoosier might use the term "pop". Now who would be right? Well, you'd need to look at the context to determine that. The context would probably lead a discerning person away from the technical term "coca-cola" because they would note that the insertion of the "me ah" (as in "bought me ah...") and conclude that they were translating the words of a red-neck from Alabama. Under these circumstances the translation would naturally reflect this and depending on the geography the most likely translation would be "pop" or "soda" or literally "a fizzy/carbonated beverage" -- not "Coca-Cola". Context and culture are important ingredients when considering the sense of any text, scripture or otherwise. I took Jman's advice and googled the term and this random site seemed to express a fair representation of the "hupostasis" controversy: http://hopefaithprayer.com/faith/faith-is-hebrews-111-hupost asis/ Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2013-06-09T17:54:26-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: William, Very humorous analogy. If I drank sugary drinks I would probably run down and get me ah a "Pop" about now as well. We use "me ah" up here as well. You learn something new everyday, I did not know also they had red necks in Alabama, I thought it was all "Southern gentlemen". Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-06-10T11:15:53-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Alanbook wrote on Mon, 10 June 2013 06:15 We use "me ah" up here as well. I've heard-tell that some of our kin moved north after the aggression... say hello to great-grannie for me...
creator: william
date: 2013-06-10T12:30:22-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Tom Wrote; First: Shortly after I started my response to Mark L's post, I sustained serious nerve damage to my leg. The damage was so severe that I could no longer walk or sit upright very long without aggravating the damage and causing a lot of pain. One of the positions that aggravates the damage is sitting at my computer. As I stated before; the only position that helps lessen the pain is sitting in a lounge chair with my feet up and a heating pad on the damaged area. Recovery has been very slow, as is common with nerve damage, and I have been too active at times which has caused the past and current delays in my response time. ************************************************************ ************************** Praise God brother Tom, You must have recovered from this trail as your responses have been forth coming. Could you share your thoughts and actions as you overcame this Trail and what brought an end to this suffering and pain.
creator: JWBTI
date: 2013-06-12T00:07:10-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: In this post I have answered questions raised by several of you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gary… You said: “I just went through the NT to see what did God say about faith and healing. This is just something I wanted to do so I would have better understanding of what the Bible is saying and not so much what I was taught it was saying.” “Invariably I came away with the conclusion that Jesus is the one who was always bringing up a person’s faith [persuasion in God’s Word, belief in God’s Word, trust in God’s Word, and reliance on God’s Word].” * That is correct; Jesus wants us to believe Him, trust in Him, and rely on Him alone; and to stop trusting in our own abilities/works. ============================================================ ======================= Gary said: “The NT says, when the Son of Man returns will He find faith [people who have been so persuaded by what He says, that they believe what He says, and trust in Him, and rely on Him alone, to do what He promised].” * That is correct; Jesus will be looking for those of us who have been persuaded by the reasons He gives us to believe in Him, trust in Him, and rely on Him alone. He will be looking for those of us who have stopped trusting in our own abilities/works, and simply trust in Him. ============================================================ ======================= Gary said: “Tom For one thing the faith message is not a "Gospel". There are only four Gospels. [The faith] message is within the Gospels.” * You are confusing the man made “titles” of the four books written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; “The Gospel According To Matthew”, “The Gospel According To Mark, etc. with the Biblical word “gospel”. The Biblical word “gospel” means: a good message. G2098 euaggelion From the same as G2097; a good message, that is, the gospel: - gospel. The “gospel” is the foundational message upon which all of your beliefs rest. The "gospel” is the messa…
creator: A_Smoking_Flax
date: 2013-06-12T08:59:59-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
creator: Gary
date: 2013-06-12T21:21:18-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Tom, Do you believe that Smith Wigglesworth was a False teacher also, He got His teachings from Gods Word And not man ? Ok Tom, If I follow what you say the word says….Then I’m following you….right ! If I follow what the Holy Spirit teaches, then I’m wrong because I follow not your Teaching ….. TomYou said: As I said before, I am looking for Christians. Christians follow Jesus; who is The Word of God; whom we know through reading and understanding The Bible. Christians will hear the Word of God, turn away from the lies of men, And follow Jesus, The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Only Way to The Father and Eternal Life. From this statement Bro Tom it seems that you don’t count us as being Christians, cause We don’t follow Your Teachings. We do follow Christ Jesus, His Word, His Way, His Truth, His Life to the Father.
creator: JWBTI
date: 2013-06-12T21:37:08-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Hi Tom You said: I have come here to show you the true Biblical meaning of the two foundational words of “the faith message”; “faith” and “sub-stance”. ====================== To make any progress in my case you need to do 2 things 1) address how your faith definition relates to Believe you receive when you pray which I consider the definition of "faith." 2) Show scholarship to counter the mucho respected scholars who say hupostasis in Heb11:1 includes the definition of "substance" as was taught. ------------------------------------------------ Your "persuation" argument (along with various word definitions) is an argument removed from the Bible by "therefores" For example - Heb 11:1 says faith is "hupostasis" Hupostasis definition is defined by the original first century Greek usage - Scholars tell us the first century usage meant "substance" like as it was taught by HEF. So the Bible Itself says faith is a substance like was taught. Now you come along with "therefores" Strongs says such and such , therefore Tom deduces . . . etc. modern dictionaries says such and such therefore Tom deduces .... etc So I can believe what the Bible actually says or I can believe Tom's theory that includes a bunch of "therefores." Eventually Tom concludes that the faith teachings were wrong, Hef and others were a root of evil, and all who disagree are not His sheep. Tom, I challenge you with this - Consider if it is you who is wrong since what you are saying is patently different from the Bible in Heb 11:1 You need to do more homework on "hupostasis." ==================================== Take a do-over ( golfers call it a Mulligan) concerning what you said about not believing anything Kenyon, HEF, etc ever taught. You will agree with them on a zillion topics and disagree on only a few.
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-06-12T22:19:32-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: A_Smoking_Flax wrote on Wed, 12 June 2013 03:59 James said: "By faith [persuasion in God’s promise, belief in God’s promise, trust and reliance in God alone to fulfill His promise] Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8” "...Obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went." “Is this not "blind faith " ? Abraham believed God was who He revealed Himself to be, and that He would do what He promised him He would do...he didn't attempt to 'reason it out' or grasp it with his intellect...he believed and obeyed...and as promised, God delivered.” * No! This is not “blind faith” at all. In Biblical Christianity there is no such thing as “blind faith”. God says: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD. The word reason (H3198 yâkach) means: A primitive root; to be right (that is, correct); reciprocally to argue; causatively to decide, justify or convict: - argue, chasten, convince, correct (-ion), dispute, judge, plead, reason (together), rebuke, reprove. This is not an example of “blind faith”. It is, in fact, another example of the Biblical meaning of faith: persuasion! God tells us why Abram left his country, kindred, and father’s house: Abram left, because he was persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave: God told Abram to leave: “And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and you shall be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curse thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed, as the LORD had told him.” Abram was so persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave, that he believed what God had promised, and trusted in God, And relied on God alone: to lead him to the land that He promised to show him. Abram left not knowing specifically where he was going, but knowing that God promised to lead him to a …
creator: james
date: 2013-06-14T00:55:59-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Tom, What do you think of this scripture? Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. The problem I see is that if someone has not taken the time to master the Greek language how could they pull out one term from Strong's and try to make a case why something taught is wrong. How can someone do a credible exegesis of a word without considering all the scriptures that pertain to faith that should be included. If what your saying is true Tom you should be able to show a number of scriptures that prove what you are thinking is correct. To be honest to take one scripture and pull out one word and start denouncing a teaching seems to be very irrational. Pulling one word from the Bible and trying to prove a point with another language can only lead one to the pathway of error in their thinking. This is how many of the cults got their start, they picked out certain words in the Bible explaining them away and came up with their own imaginary thinking of what the scriptures said, which led to deception. What I am trying to say here Tom, Is how can you take "one" tiny word and prove that the faith message is wrong? This is why your not able to answer any of the scriptures shared by others, thinking "silence" will prove your right. Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-06-16T11:09:35-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Maybe it is just me, but this is getting so rediculously complicated. Listen to the Holy Spirit and know that what you are believing for is in the Word and redemptive. Pray, ask, know that it is a matter of His timing, and stand until it comes to pass. I could care less about debating translations. We have the God of the universe in us to tell us all of this in our daily walk and our communion with Him. He told us to be like children, not like scribes and Pharisees. Pick apart how you hear His voice. If Bibles become scarce, we won't have time for all of this endless debate. What will you rely on then? Piles of ashes of burned Bibles, or the Living Word in your heart. Time is short and I really believe that Bibles will not be around. Plenty of Korans, but not Bibles. JMHO
creator: GWB
date: 2013-06-18T04:19:39-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Gillyann, The problem I see here is that once someone crosses over to the other side there is no longer the opportunity to get things settled. If this is true, then I would think everyone would want to examine what they believe in light of scripture. The thought came to me the teaching about, "Its never to late till its to late". When someone denies something in the Bible and tries to explain it away with one tiny word, while trying to use the Greek without considering other passages we find something is wrong in their perception. Every jot and tittle is important in the Word of God as we all know. Were told not to take away or add to the Bible. I think this is the main concern and that is to see a man head down the path of deception while he is telling other Christians they are deceived. I can agree with Tom when I see people take the faith teaching and add their opinions to what the Bible says, for instance seed faith, etc. But to say the teaching is not in the Bible means that whole passages and chapters are just totally overlooked. This view is very concerning here, I think if it is a debate it is very lopsided. Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-06-18T09:56:51-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Tom you seem to be picking one aspect of faith and just running with it and putting walls up around it and saying this is the beginning and end of it. I think a lot of that is a reaction to teaching from the wof (word of faith) people and Kenyon and responding to them rather than what was actually taught in the faith message. A good eg of that is our words being creative. Hef never taught that. And (just making a point here) if he did he was wrong. Our words certainly have an impact on our life but they are not creative in the same way Gods are. 1 Thess 1/3 their faith "grew" exceedingly along with their love which enabled them vs 4 to endure the trials and persecution they were going through. Rom 4 Abraham . . . vs19 not weak vs 20 was strong vs 21 fully persuaded He went from weak to strong and not fully persuaded to fully persuaded. There was a process. 1 John2/14 . . . strong and the word of God abides in you. Also you didn't mention this but unbelief is a substance too. * That is correct: I am setting the Biblical definition of the Greek word that Jesus used and meant, against the man-made, false definition of the word “faith” that E.W. Kenyon misunderstood/invented and taught to Kenneth Hagin, who taught it to Hobart Freeman, Kenneth Copeland, Et Al. That is not a proper way to argue your point as Hef himself said publicly he disagreed with Kenyon. All of us are products of those who went before us. Good and bad. Kenyon included. You are taking too much of Kenyon and the wof people and applying it to the faith message. Your comments on the mind and the heart. You are simply wrong. We are an indivisible whole. The heart is a deeper aspect of our consciousness (the mind) There is much scripture that bypasses the more shallow aspect of our consciousness (our minds) and speaks directly to the deeper part of our consciousness (the heart). A good eg is Rom 8/ 28-39 It just speaks to the heart. Also 11 Cor 6/17-18 Good christian music and worship comes out of or into…
creator: Mark L
date: 2013-06-18T20:40:50-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Hi Mark L. You reminded me: A good eg of that is our words being creative. Hef never taught that. And (just making a point here) if he did he was wrong. Our words certainly have an impact on our life but they are not creative in the same way Gods are. I agree. ----------------- I cannot recall the exact nuance of how HEF taught this. I think he said believer's words are indeed creative, but I am not sure. But the HEF "son in law" generation of teachers ( at least a few ) definitely taught that the words of our mouths were creative. I specifically remember being against this teaching, so I am sure that it was taught. Possibly, many readers of this forum still think this way. Say "My child is slow," and it becomes true. Say "I'm so fat," and you are fat. Say "I'm healed," and you are healed . (see faith reference below in this post) Say "I cannot read that," and years of faith is negated. (see faith reference below in this post) -------------------------------- Actual example of how people thought - approx. 30 years ago. The men were playing basketball. A boy fell on his own arm and snapped the two bones in the forearm. He lifted up the 'bent in he wrong place' arm and, with a shocked face, said, "I just broke my arm." A brother said, "Don't say that, or it will become true." As if if the boy never verbalized it, then the arm were not broken. The arm was already broken, and the boy's words would not change it nor cause it. ------------------------------- The idea that our words are creative is a NEW AGE way of thinking. As if your words go out into the universe and affect reality. In Christian theology it is not your words, the vibrations, nor your mental thoughts/powers that affects reality. It is a much cleaner theology to say that the actual faith of a person is what matters ( it alone moves God into action ) and not their words. Spontaneous positive/negative confessions merely reveal what faith (or lack thereof) is really present. Jman `* ---sig-------------------…
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-06-19T13:30:44-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: I believe there is something to having a positive attitude in life, especially if you know the Lord. Having a negative outlook on life develops a negative attitude where there is no hope. This is interesting. When we pray we have to believe God is going to work in our behalf for our prayers to be answered. Faith is that believing. I think the teaching on creating manifestations came from the scripture, Command Ye Me concerning the works of my hands", many interpreted this to mean we could command God with faith and positive confessions, to receive an answer. The way I understand faith is that you know, that you know, that God is going to do something from you believing that He will do it and you have total rest in your heart that it is going to happen. I know many who trusted God for healing who were better Christians then me, had the right confession but they ended up dying. But this does not change the fact that healing is part of the atonement. Then on the other hand I have seen some step out in faith and find it works. For me I am trying to take scriptures in their context and seeing what did Jesus say and what did He think is important for us as believers. It takes faith to believe the Bible is the Word of God and that He means what He says. Otherwise its just hope. God has given every man the measure of faith. Faith has to grow. Its a learning process that everyone has to work out themselves before the Lord. But I agree just saying positive words so other people will hear them does not mean its just going to happen. Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-06-19T22:55:32-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: wishing34 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2013 08:30 Possibly, many readers of this forum still think this way. Say "My child is slow," and it becomes true. Say "I'm so fat," and you are fat. Say "I'm healed," and you are healed . (see faith reference below in this post) Say "I cannot read that," and years of faith is negated. (see faith reference below in this post) -------------------------------- Actual example of how people thought - approx. 30 years ago. The men were playing basketball. A boy fell on his own arm and snapped the two bones in the forearm. He lifted up the 'bent in he wrong place' arm and, with a shocked face, said, "I just broke my arm." A brother said, "Don't say that, or it will become true." As if if the boy never verbalized it, then the arm were not broken. The arm was already broken, and the boy's words would not change it nor cause it. ------------------------------- Jman I believe we can all agree that we witnessed (whether only in others or maybe in ourselves) misapplications of what we were taught in every area, not just concerning 'faith'. We know bondage, legalism, and extreme peer presure was prevalent throughout towards the end of HEF's ministry. Hopefully we've put this behind us; or maybe this is what this interaction among us is doing, helping us re-establish our relationship with Jesus Christ and making sure our convictions are Biblical. I can say that I've certainly examined myself over the last 5 years due to the exchanges and questions raised here, and yes, I have discovered that even though I believed certain things as scriptural 30+ years ago, I can no longer cling to them today as The Lord Jesus has opened my eyes to see in the context He intended. And it wouldn't suprise me a bit if He didn't show me even more in the future that I believe today that He would have me re-adjust 'my' doctrines to align with His.
creator: james
date: 2013-06-20T01:03:06-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Gary, I do think that having a positive attitude is better than a negative one; I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. Driving on the right side of the road to your destination is more beneficial than driving on the left side... <ouch> I can only speak for myself here but as I think back I often had more faith in verses than I did in the author of the verses, if you know what I mean. I know the saying that you can't separate God from His Word and I agree with that in one sense but in another sense I think I did exactly that -- to some degree. Mechanically quoting a verse doesn't equate, or isn't the same thing as believing God. I can chalk it up to a lack of maturity or some other reason, but there definitely were times when my faith in a particular verse was more focused on the letter of the word than it was on the author. It seems to me that Jesus spent quite a bit of time showing the difference between the letter and the spirit of the law. Laws concerning the sabbath, laws of separation, even laws dealing with moral issues had become so ridged in people's minds that the underlying reason for those laws had been forgotten. I think sometimes we have the same tendency to focus on the letter of the word (whether we are talking about positive confession or something else) and forget where our real focus should be. Hopefully now our faith is grounded in the Author-and-finisher-of-our-faith and not merely in the letter of some verse that we can quote! Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2013-06-20T02:13:52-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: james wrote on Wed, 19 June 2013 20:03 I believe we can all agree that we witnessed (whether only in others or maybe in ourselves) misapplications of what we were taught in every area, not just concerning 'faith'. We know bondage, legalism, and extreme peer presure was prevalent throughout towards the end of HEF's ministry. Hopefully we've put this behind us; or maybe this is what this interaction among us is doing, helping us re-establish our relationship with Jesus Christ and making sure our convictions are Biblical. I can say that I've certainly examined myself over the last 5 years due to the exchanges and questions raised here, and yes, I have discovered that even though I believed certain things as scriptural 30+ years ago, I can no longer cling to them today as The Lord Jesus has opened my eyes to see in the context He intended. And it wouldn't suprise me a bit if He didn't show me even more in the future that I believe today that He would have me re-adjust 'my' doctrines to align with His. Amen James! 30 years down this road... we've got to have made some progress! [are we there yet?<grin>] Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2013-06-20T02:19:57-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Jman wrote: Quote: The idea that our words are creative is a NEW AGE way of thinking. As if your words go out into the universe and affect reality. In Christian theology it is not your words, the vibrations, nor your mental thoughts/powers that affects reality. It is a much cleaner theology to say that the actual faith of a person is what matters ( it alone moves God into action ) and not their words. Spontaneous positive/negative confessions merely reveal what faith (or lack thereof) is really present. I hear what you are saying and I agree... however, at the expense of sounding 'new-agee', I think that we do 'create our own realities' to some extent. Now before you all say that I've gone all Shirley-Maclaine on you, let me explain. We all make thousands of choices each and every day. Each choice takes us down a particular road. The road we are on is our reality --the one we have chosen. In this sense we have created our reality... if we had made different choices our 'reality' would be different. The words we use do indeed affect our reality. That said, I do think that the idea that our words have some magical or mystical effect (like in the example you gave) is plainly false. Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2013-06-20T02:47:06-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: I cannot recall the exact nuance of how HEF taught this. I think he said believer's words are indeed creative, but I am not sure. But the HEF "son in law" generation of teachers ( at least a few ) definitely taught that the words of our mouths were creative. I specifically remember being against this teaching, so I am sure that it was taught. OK I stand corrected. To some degree or another it was taught. For the most part though I disagree with the teaching. I do believe our words like everything else in this world are partly spiritual and partly physical (like the the stones on the ground for eg Luke 19/40). They guide the direction of our life James 3/3-4 They are the expression of our faith Heb 10/23 In light of the emphasis on words in the bible both in teaching and example there is no reason why the vs in proverbs can't be taken in a spiritual sense as well. I don't believe they are creative though in the same way Gods are. Creatzio ex nihilo creating out of nothing Even in confessing something that doesn't exist (healing money whatever) and believing to see it come into your life is still a confession of ones faith. It is the faith in ones heart that "God" uses to make the answer out of. It is not a creation out of nothing.
creator: Mark L
date: 2013-06-20T06:46:26-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Quote: William wrote; We all make thousands of choices each and every day. Each choice takes us down a particular road. The road we are on is our reality --the one we have chosen. In this sense we have created our reality... if we had made different choices our 'reality' would be different. The words we use do indeed affect our reality. Willaim I have to agree with you on this, It does sound very new Ageee. It reminds me of a book called, A Separate reality, by Casteneda
creator: Gary
date: 2013-06-20T09:50:08-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Alanbook wrote on Thu, 20 June 2013 04:50 Willaim I have to agree with you on this, It does sound very new Ageee. It reminds me of a book called, A Separate reality, by Casteneda Here is what I pulled up from the description: "Then in 1968, Carlos Castaneda returned to Mexico, to don Juan and his hallucinogenic drugs, and to a world of experience no man from our Western civilization had ever entered before..." <grin> I know that I do sometimes go down the road less traveled but I can assure you that drugs had no part in it!! Quote: ...I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I— I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. ... from a poem by Robert Frost
creator: william
date: 2013-06-20T11:34:54-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: william wrote on Wed, 19 June 2013 21:13 I can only speak for myself here but as I think back I often had more faith in verses than I did in the author of the verses, if you know what I mean. I know the saying that you can't separate God from His Word and I agree with that in one sense but in another sense I think I did exactly that -- to some degree. Mechanically quoting a verse doesn't equate, or isn't the same thing as believing God. I can chalk it up to a lack of maturity or some other reason, but there definitely were times when my faith in a particular verse was more focused on the letter of the word than it was on the author. It seems to me that Jesus spent quite a bit of time showing the difference between the letter and the spirit of the law. Laws concerning the sabbath, laws of separation, even laws dealing with moral issues had become so ridged in people's minds that the underlying reason for those laws had been forgotten. I think sometimes we have the same tendency to focus on the letter of the word (whether we are talking about positive confession or something else) and forget where our real focus should be. Hopefully now our faith is grounded in the Author-and-finisher-of-our-faith and not merely in the letter of some verse that we can quote! Blessings, William Exactly, this is a good example of what many of us did...and it's what He is lovingly showing us. Mercy and grace, we can talk about it but to experience it is awesome...
creator: james
date: 2013-06-20T12:11:35-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: This is in reply to Tom's original post... "These are more beliefs, taught by men, which are not found anywhere in the New Testament:" "Pleading The Blood of Jesus" "Believing God For" My first thought was, "are you serious?" Then I realized, you are. The first person I knew of to attempt to show/prove that 'pleading The Blood of Jesus' was error or false teaching was Hank Hanegraaff. And again, I'm not saying that people haven't spoken or prayed these words as a response to false teachings or not from their hearts; but, pleading The Blood of Jesus as protection/covering IS Biblical. The example should be obivious to any Christian, Exodus 12:13 . the blood of the lambs that was struck upon the door posts of the Hebrews while in Egypt (in faith and obedience, they had to believe Moses to do it) that gave them protection from the plague of death that killed all the first born. God said, "when I see the blood, I will pass over you..." It covered and protected, and we also know it wasn't the blood of the lambs themselves that had any power, it was their obedience to God. The blood of the lamb was a foreshadowing of what His plan of salvation was unto man...Jesus, the pure, spotless, sinless sacrifical Lamb who would lay down His life in death as The once and for all sin-offering on our behalf, reconciling us unto God. Believing God for? I thought your whole point about the word faith was 'believing God for'(being convienced/assured/persuaded). Tom, everything we do as Christian require 'believing God for'... I believed God for my salvation. I am believing God for my day to day needs. I will continue to believe God for my daily provisions, protection, keeping me, delivering me, and whatever else I encounter as I walk through this life. " For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." 1 John 5:4
creator: james
date: 2013-06-20T14:15:16-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: "Pleading The Blood of Jesus" Another vs is Rev 12:11 "They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony" I've had discussions with people over the yrs on this and I always say that anyone who has experience in spiritual warfare knows the value of pleading the blood of Jesus. It was the blood of the cross that defeated the devil and it is very effective
creator: Mark L
date: 2013-06-20T15:42:11-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Quote: Tom wrote: "These are more beliefs, taught by men, which are not found anywhere in the New Testament:" "Pleading The Blood of Jesus" "Believing God For" I almost commented on this as well. When taking someone through deliverance pleading the Blood of Jesus always gets a reaction from the powers of darkness. They fear/hate the Blood of Jesus and the work done at the cross. There was a number of items mentioned in Tom's list that was questionable. What about discerning things in the Spirit? 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. This explains why a man cannot see what God has revealed by the Spirit. Even the statement how he knew everything about faith like everyone here but he only was under the word six years and in the post he deleted he confessed at that time he left because of sin. Living in sin will prevent a man from receiving or understanding spiritual things. Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-06-20T21:44:16-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: I respect the opinions of those who have been a part of OO for a few years now. Iron sharpens iron. I had to fall back on what FA taught me to survive and stay alive. The Satanic believers (Luciferians) HATE HEF and those who respect HEF teachings. All of us have had to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling since FA. I do know this: HEF makes Luciferians tremble.
creator: GWB
date: 2013-06-21T04:27:07-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: *** Hello, Mark L, William, Gillyann, James, Gary, Ron, Sue, “Jman” and anyone who has been following this post but not writing. ============================================================ ================ Gary said: “The problem I see is that if someone has not taken the time to master the Greek language how could they pull out one term from Strong's and try to make a case why something taught is wrong. Pulling one word from the Bible and trying to prove a point with another language can only lead one to the pathway of error in their thinking.” * Studying the meanings of the original Greek words is not: “Pulling one word from the Bible and trying to prove a point with another language”. It is what we are commanded to do by God: Study, be diligent, labor to show yourself approved unto God, a workman, (teacher) who does not need to be ashamed, dissecting and correctly expounding the Word of Truth. The original language of the New Testament, the language that the New Testament was first written in, is Greek. The language that God selected to transmit His Good Message about Jesus to the whole world was Greek. The transcripts that Greek scholars use to produce an English translation of the New Testament are written in Greek. The common language at the time of Jesus and the apostles was Greek. See Luke 23:38 So… the “another language” that you are concerned about? In the context of the language of the New Testament the “another language” would be English. *** To translate Greek manuscripts into English, you would have to be a Greek Scholar. But… I am not translating anything. And, I am not one of those who “pull out one term from Strong's and try to make a case why something taught is wrong.” I am looking at specific Greek words, used in the Bible, to help me better understand their meanings in the context of the verses in which they are being used. Mat 13:19 Here are a few examples: The name “Jesus” is of Hebrew origin and means: Jehovah-saved. In Psalm 119:16, “forget…
creator: A_Smoking_Flax
date: 2013-06-21T07:31:41-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Quote: Tom wrote:Gary… Do you really believe that my looking up these words in a Greek Lexicon, “can only lead me to the pathway of error in my thinking”? Tom Looks like you were busy writing last night. Well I believe it happens all the time and that is people take the Greek and Hebrew and try to prove something in the Bible that is not there. In fact I took a course in a Bible college by a leading Greek scholar on the book of James. This man lived in Greece while growing up spoke the language and had studied it for years. He even has his own Bible translation. I am telling you this so you can know this man knows the Greek inside and out. I was very excited about this class. When the man got to the part about divine healing it was this scripture: James 5:14-15 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. This Greek scholar said; this verse meant that the young men in the church should call on the Pastor and that he should go and give the young men in the church a "massage". I still have the book and the reference to this passage, the man did not believe in divine healing so he made the Greek fit his interpretation of the scripture. In answer to your question yes it is possible to take a verse with tons of research and try to make it say what you want. Many cults have done this trying to make the Bible fit their ideology of scriptures. It sounds like you had some bad experience with using faith and it did not work for you, so your trying to disprove certain Bible verses. Like William said, its easy to have faith in the letter rather then having faith in the Author. (my paraphrase of what he shared). Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-06-21T10:17:53-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Hi Tom, I have responded to your request to discuss “faith” and “substance” in my posts in this thread. You have not responded to my points. Please review my posts and respond to the points I made. I am not requesting a repeat of your overall theory, opinions about Kenyon, lessons on other theology topics, or responses to other people's posts. Please be focused and concise. Jman ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 172 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-06-21T13:22:13-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Tom, In my life I have been all the things you say, disingenuous, dishonest, and deceitful (along with most every other sin)...If I was purposely doing this, as you say, then I am deceiving myself because I believe in my heart that my motives in my response was godly and honest. But it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong; I know this, any rightousness that can be found in me is only there through Jesus Christ. So please don't judge everyone else my what you perceive in me as unchristian behavior. Pray for me and don't take offense, I really didn't try to insult your intelligence. I really try to believe the best about people, especially those who say they believe in Christ and are followers of Him; and I have thought many times that if we (those who have come and gone and those who have remained on this forum) were seated together in an assembly face to face, we would have far fewer misunderstandings of what each is trying to convey using this medium (the computer). More than a few times through the years I've stated that I'm not a debator nor do I like to argue, I don't have the memory of what was taught near as well as some(William, for example), nor do I have any tapes or notes; the only thing I have is 'The Deeper Life' book and the 'Faith' book from HEF and my time under his ministry. I didn't attend FA. This isn't said to you to distance myself from anything or make excuse...it just is the way it is. I'm grateful for what I was taught that led me into a closer relationship with God and better understanding of Him and His Word. I will take your words to heart and pray and seek The Lord about how I conduct myself. I'm not sure just how humble I really am before The Lord, but I seek to be...and I know without humility one can not be receptive to teaching and instruction, from God or man.
creator: james
date: 2013-06-21T13:23:55-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Hi sue... I said I would answer your questions, so here I go... You said: Just wondering who this anointed faith teacher was. It would be hard for me to believe a true teacher wouldn’t be able to have faith that God created the world just because of what a person from a Creation Seminar said. * You probably wouldn’t know him he was the second in command at our “faith assembly”. Just wondering what city this group was in and who was first in command. You really didn't answer the question. If you don't want to name him publically then send me a Private Message or email. If you think about the teaching on Heb 11:8, where we were taught that true “faith” is “blind faith”. “Blind faith” requires NO EVIDENCE AT ALL; because Romans 8:24 and Hebrews 11:1 "teach" that we must have our own “faith” “to stand in the gap” until we receive the “manifestation” of what we are “believing God for”. None of this is Biblical but Hobart Freeman, who received it from E.W. Kenyon, still believed it. ============================================================ ========================= You said: Who are these Word of Faith teachers? I don’t want to assume you mean teachers from Faith Assembly or the other meetings. Or do you mean some of the teachers on TV who promote a seed faith, give to get message? * All of “the faith teachers”, everyone of them, received the same “faith message” from the same “teacher”:Again I would ask, who are these faith teachers? I believe if you want to make accusations of what someone says, you should be able and willing to name names. Hobart Freeman got it from Kenneth Hagin; Kenneth Hagin plagiarized/stole it, sometimes word for word, from E.W. Kenyon; Who got it from a “Spiritual” college he attended in Boston, where he learned “spiritual” ideas from Mary Baker Eddy’s “christian science” and other non-Christian and occult “spiritual” teachers and teachings at that college. I realize that Hobart Freeman tried to distance himself from the other “faith teachers”…
creator: sparkles
date: 2013-06-22T11:59:27-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Tom said: Even though I followed E.W. Kenyon/Hobart Freeman for six years:Right here is the reason you have departed from the teaching of faith: you followed men, not God. There were some of us who did as the Bereans and saw in God's word what was taught, and learned to apply it in everyday life. And I exchanged my personal relationship with Jesus for “The Deeper Life in the Spirit” through “the faith message”:In another post, which you deleted, you said you were taught sinless perfection(which Hobart Freeman NEVER taught)and left a church because you didn't measure up to the others. This was a deception you believed, because God puts people in the church so they can be taught and changed. And walking by faith not feelings; I lived ignoring the feelings of condemnation, abandonment and judgment by God: And I pressed on by “faith” until those feelings and condemnations faded and left: And even though I was no longer faithful to God; God was still faithful to me AND, God brought me out of “the faith message” as I returned to my first love: Jesus/God’s Word. *** And, I am no longer persuaded by the things that men say. And, I no longer believe in the doctrines of men. And, I no longer trust in men. And, I no longer rely on men. Now, I am only persuaded by God’s Word The Bible. Now, I only believe what God says in His Word The Bible. Now, I trust only in The God of The Bible for everything that pertains to life and godliness. Now, I rely on my heavenly Father alone, to provide for my every need: body, soul and spirit; from this day forward, and on into an eternity with Him as my LORD and my God. Just wondering what you think of being a part of a church. God does tell us in Ephesians 4:11-15 God has given us pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets and apostles. Tom said: Mark L, William, Gillyann, James, Gary, Ron, Sue, and “Jman” I pray this prayer for all of you often. Heavenly Father: please give them eyes to see, ears to hear, and hearts and minds to receive Your Wo…
creator: sparkles
date: 2013-06-22T12:53:13-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Saying that people are not saved because one does not agree with a "philosophy" somebody is projecting is reminiscent of times past. Deeper Life In the Spirit is where it's at right now. Walky talky; talky walky. I loved George Reusser!
creator: GWB
date: 2013-06-22T23:38:01-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Romans 10:16-18 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The Bible clearly has a lot to say about "faith". This is telling us they have not obeyed the gospel. Why? They did not believe the Lord's report. I think somethings are spiritually discerned by revelation through the Holy Spirit. There is more to God then the letter of the word. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. This is telling us that faith is what we are hoping for, so in a sense its a substance that stands in its place till the manifestation comes. I hope that sounds right. Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-06-29T14:16:49-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Sue... Here is the long version for you and the others to use. Luke 11:53-54 *** What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? *** Trust in the LORD with all your heart, will, mind; and do not lean on your own understanding. A dead calm is our enemy; a storm may prove our helper. Controversy may arouse thought, and though thought may come the Divine change. Charles Spurgeon *** It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes [great men]. There have always been only two choices for mankind: TRUST IN GOD AND FOLLOW HIM! OR, TRUST IN MEN AND FOLLOW THEM! Ever since I became a Christian, in 1980, men have been trying to convince me to trust, them instead of trusting God’s Word. It has been my experience that the time has now come when: “christians” no longer put up with true, sound Biblical teaching; instead, they stand against it, they ardently resist it. “christians” no longer look for those who simply teach God’s Word; instead, they look for men who will please them by telling them only what they want to hear. ”christians” refuse to listen to, believe, or obey the truth of God’s Word; they do, however, listen to, believe, and obey man’s philosophies, man’s myths, man’s fables, man’s understanding, man’s evolutionary “science”; whatever is not true according to God’s Word. I use the word “christians” to denote unsaved religious people who believe themselves to be Christians; But who are not true Christians; they are, in fact, false converts. They are “christian” in name only; they have no fruit. Matthew 7:16-20, 12:33 They have never been born again by the Word of God. Psalm 119:155, 1Peter 1:23 They do not follow Jesus. John 10:3-5 They do not listen to, understand, or obey God’s Word. John 8:43-45,47 They are not, nor have they ever been, genuine Christians; They never had a real relationship with Jesus. They are only “religious” people, doing “christian” “works”. Matthew 7:21-27,…
creator: A_Smoking_Flax
date: 2013-07-16T23:14:40-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Hi Tom, You said: Jesus promised to confirm only one thing with signs following: “The Gospel according to God’s Word”. If there are no signs, it is because we are preaching a different Gospel; not the Gospel according to God’s Word! ================================== Where do you believe the real Gospel is preached? - with signs following of course. Jman ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 198 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-07-17T23:58:00-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Bro Flax I have a question for you as well. In light of your comments to me about the mind vs the heart. What do you believe it is that enters eternity when a person dies.
creator: Mark L
date: 2013-07-29T22:33:13-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: I just noticed the scripture included in the 'help' Tom offered to Sue and the others... "Here is the long version for you and the others to use. Luke 11:53-54" I don't think we need a concordance or Greek word study to 'get the message'. Speaking of doing word studies(there is a place for in-depth studies of words, both Greek and Hebrew, as I'm sure we'd all agree.) the pastor of the church I attended last Sunday made this statement..."A person drowning doesn't need to know the Greek definition of the word 'lifebouy', they just need the lifebouy." This was spoken in the context of the message he was teaching concerning how some Christians get bogged down in word studies, reading all the lastest Christian books, going to conferences and seminars; and forget what we're called to do, share the good news of Jesus Christ and what He's done in our lives and can/will do in theirs. The study/discipleship comes later.
creator: james
date: 2013-07-30T14:15:11-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: "I just noticed the scripture included in the 'help' Tom offered to Sue and the others... "Here is the long version for you and the others to use. Luke 11:53-54" I don't think we need a concordance or Greek word study to 'get the message'. Speaking of doing word studies(there is a place for in-depth studies of words, both Greek and Hebrew, as I'm sure we'd all agree.) the pastor of the church I attended last Sunday made this statement..."A person drowning doesn't need to know the Greek definition of the word 'lifebuoy', they just need the lifebouy." This was spoken in the context of the message he was teaching concerning how some Christians get bogged down in word studies, reading all the latest Christian books, going to conferences and seminars; and forget what we're called to do, share the good news of Jesus Christ and what He's done in our lives and can/will do in theirs. The study/discipleship comes later." I am aware of some believers who can't say "Jesus" anymore. They believe it is pagan. In reality, the word Jesus is a removed derivative having it's roots in the Septuagint. The word "Jesus" became a hot mess from Hebrew to Greek. After all, the Latin culture name their children "Jesus" all of the time. My husband works with a " Jesus." There is a slash over the u. The translation from Hebrew to Greek is properly invalid. I posted an article addressing this issue on OO. There is no J in Hebrew. The Tetragrammaton (YHWH) presented in the OT in Hebrew, is another thread. It certainly does not refer to "Jesus." It took hundred of years to do so. I pray to Jesus. That is Who I met when I was 20 years old. Jesus is "I Am, To Be," to me. If I was in the middle of the ocean, drowning, aspirating, and could not blurt out, "Jesus " but knew in my mind on Whom to call (Jesus) what would happen? Do Word studies matter at this point? Do I need a check list from my soul (mind) for a proper name? I think "blub or gurgle" would be His name at this point. Do I need a check l…
creator: GWB
date: 2013-07-31T06:08:30-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: GWB, Loved your response here. If you would take a waterproof Strong's with you, it can serve as a float in the water that you could study till help came. Oh you may need a waterproof vines to fight off the sharks with. LOL This is the first I have heard of the use of the name of Jesus not being in the Greek. To carry this even further. A number of years back someone told me that a well known TV evangelist said, we do not really need the Bible all we need is John 3:16. Oh I forgot floating out there in the water with this theology we would have to deal with the "G" word. Maybe this is why its safer to stick with Readers Digest sermons. If Marks question does not get answered maybe we can at least find out and get a response about using the "J" on Jesus study, how about it SmokinFlax? Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-07-31T11:38:37-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Good one, ! Lol I do appreciate a good debate on faith. I have learned that He does answer and take care of me by the faith of my comprehension. I guess He is meeting me where I am at without understanding the full meaning of faith or substance. I don't know. I am not trying to belittle any debate that is transpiring. I simply don't even understand the main question. For that, I am sorry. I have learned that the more we simplify, the better the results. That is for me. So, with that being said, I will continue to hear the views and "focus" PS I m saved. Amen.
creator: GWB
date: 2013-07-31T14:11:33-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Word Study...persecution complex "A persecution complex is a term given to an array of phychologically-complex behaviors, that specifically deals with the perception of being persecuted, for various possibe reasons, imagined or real." Persecution Complex in religion: "Christian fundamentalist often 'feel' persecuted or "oppressed" whenever they find someone that doesn't share their particular worldview." Manifestion? Quoting scripture that has no bearing on subject at hand (out of context) in order to paint those being addressed as the villians (scribes and Pharisees) and setting themselves up as being righteous or in a like position as Jesus Christ.("laying wait for him[Jesus], and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.") Those guilty? Probably all of us, at some time or another. But sometimes it takes others angle of view to see things that we are sometimes blinded to. Could this be a form of Body ministry, for self examination? Of showing love without being critical?
creator: james
date: 2013-08-06T11:46:47-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Sounds interesting James but I don't understand what you are referring to. Quote: Persecution Complex in religion: "Christian fundamentalist often 'feel' persecuted or "oppressed" whenever they find someone that doesn't share their particular worldview." Manifestion? Quoting scripture that has no bearing on subject at hand (out of context) in order to paint those being addressed as the villians (scribes and Pharisees) and setting themselves up as being righteous or in a like position as Jesus Christ.("laying wait for him[Jesus], and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.") Are you talking about something specific here? I have wondered about some teachings that pull scripture out of context to prove a point. Is this similar to what you are saying? Many ministers practice this, but is it Biblical? Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-08-07T20:39:31-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Alanbook wrote on Wed, 07 August 2013 15:39 Sounds interesting James but I don't understand what you are referring to. Gary, I was responding to Tom's use of Luke 11:53-54 after he reposted his faith post to 'Sue and all the others'. Quote: Persecution Complex in religion: "Christian fundamentalist often 'feel' persecuted or "oppressed" whenever they find someone that doesn't share their particular worldview." Manifestion? Quoting scripture that has no bearing on subject at hand (out of context) in order to paint those being addressed as the villians (scribes and Pharisees) and setting themselves up as being righteous or in a like position as Jesus Christ.("laying wait for him[Jesus], and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.") Are you talking about something specific here? Message #9617 I have wondered about some teachings that pull scripture out of context to prove a point. Is this similar to what you are saying? Many ministers practice this, but is it Biblical? We've all done it, ministers or not...There are times it's not Biblical, just the flesh or misguided zeal. imo Gary
creator: james
date: 2013-08-08T11:10:55-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: I appreciate all of the input and opinions. Pretend that you are in a closed box. This box is totally controlled and monitored. You are barely surviving. Your food is measured out. Your contacts outside of this box are controlled and monitored. Within this box, you are being attacked physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Everyone outside of this box has been convinced by satan that you do not need help. Tell me what you would do or say ( confess) to get out. Also, in childbirth, at home, I labored in pain and screamed so much that they had to close the windows. I told Him that my life was in His hands. I told Him that I would give one last push, after 36 hous, and then I wanted me and my baby to go home to heaven to be with Him if my baby was not delivered. Again, pretend you are in a closed box. When you roll over, in this box, you do not know if someone or something is going to kill you or defile you. Just like the childbirth, you decide to give your life to Him. Either live or die by any means. This is a long and exhausting thread on the words faith and substance. For my benefit, would someone please explain to me how this thread is relevant to these two experiences I have presented? I sincerely believe that this debate is much too complicated. This person is alive from an enclosed box and from childbirth. What am I missing? Why the long debate? Either you know He has your back, or you don't.
creator: GWB
date: 2013-08-09T02:12:29-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
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description: Okay I see what you mean. The problem I see is you cannot base your experience on what happened to others in or out of church. Many things Christians believe cannot be found in scripture. For instance what about small children, aborted babies, and children under the age of accountability. Most believe that these kids all go to heaven if they die before a certain age. Do we have scriptures that spell this out for us? This is one among many beliefs that Christians hold to. If you add to the list Tom gave it would eventually explain way the Bible. Quote: Here is the List he gave: These are more beliefs, taught by men, which are not found anywhere in the New Testament: “Pleading The Blood of Jesus”, “Believeing God For”, “Anointed” teachers, Only “anointed” teachers can “teach” God’s Word, “The Fresh Bread from Heaven”/“The New Word of God”, “Touch not the Lord’s anointed!” Negative/positive “confessions”, We have the power to “speak things into being”, just like God, Christians calling themselves “The End Time Army of God”, Christians calling themselves “Overcomers”, Christians living a “Deeper Life”, “The faith message” i.e., faith is a Spiritual Power. Where do you stop with the list? The Bible does not say grace is amazing but everyone knows that it is. But there is no scripture stating this. Believers started using the name "Christian" at Antioch, did they have a scripture to start this practice? Disciples, believers calling themselves "Christians". The Bible is spiritually discerned and is not interpreted through Websters 1828 dictionary. In message #9617 if we applied what Tom wrote to the NT church we could use the same logic and explain away the teachings of men, namely Paul, John, etc. etc.. Many are doing this in these end times. There is always another side of the coin that is not being presented, I know people who know Tom and his wife personally and I think he is painting a different picture of himself here, then what happened in the past. Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-08-09T02:51:07-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Ok, I believe and understand what you have said. In the end, it is either head or heart. People need to choose. Either you have a relationship with Him or you have a relationship with your brain. When you trust Jesus, you will be able to jump off of cliffs and know that He will catch you. When you admire your brain, you continue to question and scrutinize. What group of people did that in the Word? Did Jesus like them? What group of people is available to Jesus to use for His plan? How did the great "faith" people fit into this group? Example: Smith Wigglesworth. Is that too simple? Also, please apply all of the manuscript in this thread to the two examples I presented. Babes come to OO to learn. Anyone....please say something about all of this that I can repeat to my grandkids. The Bible says that even children can understand faith. My grandkids are coming over this weekend. Tell me how to explain faith to them. What say you?
creator: GWB
date: 2013-08-09T02:56:57-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Also, as far as "the list" is concerned, why are men asking men what is of God and valid for each individual? I used many of these examples when I was "in a box" and delivering a child and my heart was crying out to Him to keep me. Abba, Daddy, help me. Are some really put off by me calling the God of the universe Daddy? If so, you are missing out. I love my Dad; YHWH. Because of past experiences, I don't need confirmation from a human brain when I have Jesus in my heart to tell me what to do and say. I could care less of approval from humans when battling for my life. Believe me, human scrutiny is not there to Pharisaically approve of your actions and words. The Holy Spirit IS there to guide you and direct you into His deliverance. Only God knows a hearts sincere cry regardless of proper wording approval from people who admire their brains; Pharisees. Again, is it heart or head? My heavenly Dad loves to hear my cry. My cry might not be correct in mans's eyes, just like a child crying out to their dad, but He knows me. He knows my motives and my HEART'S cry. If you do not agree with my wording, sorry you are missing out due to being improper or vulnerable. Faith in action will never line up with any man. Faith in action, regardless of formulas, scrutiny, and wording is always valid with my heavenly Daddy. I will never be ashamed to know Him as Daddy. Sorry if some people can't understand the unconditional love involved with those dynamics. Abba...........I am jumping. I know you, Dad. You will catch me.
creator: GWB
date: 2013-08-09T09:34:45-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Gillyann, Somehow I've missed your point, this isn't unheard of since I have observed others miss my point more than once, but to attempt to wade through this thread and explain what has been said would be hard, to say the least. BUT, if you'll remember Tom started back last year when he joined wanting everyone to give him a word definition of grace and faith. No one gave an acceptable answer(in his opinion) so he started a several month long endeavor to correct our theology. This was drawn out over a period of time and when everyone didn't shout "Praise The Lord, we've been wrong about faith and grace for 30 years..." he seemed offended and took on a persecution complex quoting scriptures that Jesus spoke as if he was in the position of Jesus being persecuted by us. Big deal, blah! blah! blah! This thread wasn't and isn't continued in order to teach 'new babes' about faith(except in Tom's perspective), it was to correct all of us who he thought was deceived by HEF/Kenyon/Hagin. There's tons of other sound Biblical commentary/posts/threads on this forum that point to Jesus and a relationship with Him. But remember also, this is a place for people to discuss freely and openly their convictions, and to allow their views to be picked apart and measured against what other brothers and sisters see as truth from God's Word...both looking back at the past , as well as seeing where we stand today, and where we are headed for tomorrow. This, for me, has been a very good thing! To your question about what to say to your grandchildren when they come over concerning faith??? By your testimony I'd say you KNOW what to tell them...but if you really want my input, I'd say...Trust in The Lord [Jesus Christ] with ALL thy (their) heart and lean NOT unto thy (my/their) own understanding. In ALL thy ways look ONLY unto Him, and He will always direct/protect/save/deliver/heal... you/them/me/anyone who will believe. As for pretending to be in the situation you described, I can't even ima…
creator: james
date: 2013-08-09T12:31:02-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Gillyann, Consider this perspective. Each person reacts to the failure of FA (and our own) in their own way. You in your way, me in mine, Tom in his. Do not be impatient as others work through their issues in their own way - the best way/only way they know how. ----------------- As I perceive Tom, he is the type of person who enjoys detailed theology. As such, for Tom, a post that analyzes and challenges our past beliefs is his way of working through his FA issues/baggage. It takes another person capable of detailed theology to have a chance to edify Tom. It is wrong for us to belittle those who enjoy detailed theology. Everyone is different. Accepting others as they are is an expression of love. As I perceive you, I believe you have dealt less with bookish theology and placed more emphasis upon sensing God in your heart. Others relate to God most in how music makes them feel His presence. Others in how the fellowship with other saints makes them feel. Others relate to how a church service makes them feel validated. Others in how hours of prayer makes them feel God. --------------------- We cannot say our way of coping with our issues/baggage is right and other people's ways are wrong. Specifically, Tom's way of posting is completely right and on point for him. He has mistakes, but that is a good thing. By interacting with others he can be challenged and compare/align himself to the Word - something that would never happen if there were no other bookish, theology types for him to interact with. ---------------------------- As to how to describe things to your grandkids - you should describe things in the best way that you understand them. Your way is the right way for you - and the most effective. If by chance one of the grandkid's mind is made up such that he/she needs bookish theology to maintain belief as they grow up, then your ability to influence them will diminish ("Grandma says so" will not be enough for most teenagers) , and then you will be glad there are …
creator: wishing34
date: 2013-08-09T15:03:07-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: James, I see what your are saying. The thing is if someone is distorting something in the Bible I don't think its just another view that we learn to tolerate. The Bible says many will turn from the truth and believe the lie, God will send them a strong delusion. When someone strays from the truth and then tries to explain it away it is total religious error. I do not see Tom's post as some great theology, rather it is a twisting of the Word of God. The whole post is a contradiction to the truth found in the Bible. Sadly many cannot discern error from truth in these last days. Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-08-09T20:45:54-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Very interesting feedback. I understand the purpose of OO. This site is for discussing both meat and milk. I am not getting into my background where theology is concerned. I will just say that I have no problem understanding or keeping up around here. Sometimes I can even figure out a response! God is spirit. We have spirits that relate to Him. I think our brains (souls) are on overload with this thread. If you guys want to entertain it, Ok. I will not. My kids and grandkids learn from example. I have tried to show them how to walk in faith. Living examples are always better after having explained scripture. In the end, I agree with Gary. I see nothing but confusion being manifested and it is being entertained. I hold no animosity. It is what it is. JMHO
creator: GWB
date: 2013-08-09T21:33:25-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Also, after what I have been through, I will not be manipulated, either. I am not saying it is intentional. But, waiting on baited breath for "The Revelation" is not my idea of good and spiritually healthy conversation. HEF never did that. He just laid it out there. It was very simple. Simple stuff for simple minds. Yep, that's me!
creator: GWB
date: 2013-08-10T01:00:06-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: "The words that I have spoken to you, they are spirit and they are life." John 6:63 It is Spirit to our spirit. All of this acedamia is futile unless it is anointed in order to minister to our spirits. Debates are good as long as they are not born out of the flesh. Anointing is pretty simple. Does it minister to your spirit, or does it cause more havoc within your spirit? Again, JMHO.
creator: GWB
date: 2013-08-10T04:00:30-00:00

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
type: item
description: Quote: My kids and grandkids learn from example. I have tried to show them how to walk in faith. Living examples are always better after having explained scripture. When I was a child I only remember those who called themselves Christians were very "Kind, gentle, and meek" They were very giving people and they radiated the joy. At the time I did not understand what it was that made them different and it was not till years later I understood when I met the Lord. GWB to be honest here I'm still learning and I enjoy the fellowship here with like minded believers. I don't understand when people who profess to be Christians spend endless hours trying to explain away the Bible. It is written to the simple and those who are childlike for such is the Kingdom of God. If God says it then its final and I believe it. The world tries to make it complicated then they use the intellect to make it confusing. Hebrews 11:1 says faith is the substance, that is self explanatory and the rest of the chapter tells what the author is saying. I use to meditate on this scripture for hours on end. I would keep thinking about it to try and understand what is faith. I have found you cannot figure out some things in your mind. If the Bible says faith is the substance then I just believe it is and know that the things I hope for will be manifested in due time. Why because God said it will. Did you know that some Christians are now dividing the Bible up and saying somethings are written by men and it has many contradictions? I don't believe this that it is the word of men, the Bible is God breathed and the Lord put in it what He wants us to know. It tells us that in the last days there is going to be a lot of deception and delusion and much confusion in the last days. The Word of God is the lamp to our feet and the light to our path that will keep us in the Will of God. Jesus said those who have faith will hear and understand, and will believe His words. Gary
creator: Gary
date: 2013-08-10T09:57:30-00:00