What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
*** What is the Biblical Meaning of the Word "Faith"? *** Grace and faith are the two most important words in the entire Bible! Because: “By grace you have been saved, through faith; This is not your own doing: it is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast.” We are saved by Grace… Grace… is not our own doing! Grace… is the gift of God! Grace… is not a result of anything we’ve done! It is by Grace… so that no one may boast. Through faith… Faith… is not our own doing! Titus 3:4-5 Faith… is the gift of God! Romans 12:3 Faith… is not a result of anything we’ve done! 1Cor 15:10, Ephesians 2:10 Through faith… so that no one may boast. 2Peter 1:2-3, 1Peter 1:2-5, Galatians 6:14, 2Cor 10:17 You would think that every Christian would know the meaning of these two words: Since correctly understanding and believing them are the foundation of our salvation. But this has not been my experience. I have asked numerous “christians” for the definitions of grace and faith, and without fail these are the responses I have gotten: Grace is the undeserved favor of God. And, quoting Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” I have found that “christians” (unsaved "religious" people) and even many true Christians also believe: Faith is unquestioning belief; belief without any reason or evidence whatsoever: what some call “blind faith”. AND… Although most “christians”, and even some true Christians, believe there is some kind of mysterious aspect to “faith”; It is only “charismatics” following “The Faith Message” who believe that faith is an actual, tangible, spiritual substance; a real spiritual power which is released by us through the act of “believing”: a power that we are required to obtain for ourselves; to store it up; to strengthen it; so that we will become “strong in faith”. They believe it is the same spiritual power that God used to make the universe: “Through [the spiritual substance of] faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God”. Or, We understand that it was through the spiritual substance of faith that God made everything by speaking the Word of Faith. Not only is it up to us to acquire this spiritual power, but, we must also be able to use it. The most important part of having “faith” is increasing our prowess/ability to use this power in our daily lives. (James 2:17-18,20,22; “The just shall live [day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute] by faith”. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. When Jesus comes He will be looking for those who have (and use) this spiritual prowess). We must have enough faith to enable God to do what we desire/need, i.e., receive the desires of our heart, prosper us, heal us, save us, save our families, etc. Because, if we do not have enough of our own strong faith for God to use: God can do nothing for us. Matthew 13:58, Mark 6:5-6 *** The Meaning of "Faith" Has Changed *** Satan understands that there is no way he can change the definition of the word grace. Everyone understands that the primary meaning of the word grace is undeserved favor (of God). I believe God won’t allow the meaning to be changed because that is how He saves us… By Grace! But Satan knows… The definition of the word faith can be made to seem more mysterious, ethereal, and mystical. The definition of the word faith has been radically altered over time. In fact, it has come to mean the exact opposite of its original Biblical definition. This can be clearly seen in these dictionary definitions starting with the more recent dictionaries and going back in time. 1986: faith, belief without proof; belief without need of certain proof 1962, 1965: faith, a believing without proof College edition 1953, 1958: faith, unquestioning belief; unquestioning belief in God, religion, etc. If you go back far enough, the original definition of the word faith can be clearly seen, even in a common dictionary: And that definition changes everything! Faith is not belief without proof; or unquestioning belief in God, religion, etc. Faith is belief based on reason and evidence. WEBSTER’S 1828 DICTIONARY FAITH, n. L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, 1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. 2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, of probable evidence of any kind. 3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. 4. Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith, is the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God's testimony, accompanied with a cordial assent of the will or approbation of the heart; an entire confidence or trust in God's character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation. In other words, that firm belief of God's testimony, and of the truth of the gospel, which influences the will, and leads to an entire reliance on Christ for salvation. Not long ago, it wasn’t only true Christians who understood the exact meaning of the Biblical word faith: everyone understood it! The Belief of our Reason is an Exercise of Faith, and Faith is an Act of Reason. It is not reason that is taking my faith away: on the contrary, my faith is based on reason. It is my imagination and emotions [that are taking my faith away]. The battle is between faith and reason on one side and emotion and imagination on the other. *** Three Related Greek Words: Pistis, Peitho, Pisteuo *** What Is The Biblical Meaning Of The Greek Word Translated “Faith”? Anyone who is teaching God’s Word, has a responsibility to be sure that the meaning of a word translated into English is the actual meaning of the Greek word, before he uses that word to teach anything i.e., theology or a Biblical principle. Baptize, church, saint; these words no longer have the same meaning in English that they have in the Greek. Any correct Biblical teaching/theology/principle has to be based upon the actual meaning of the word, not its current, popular, incarnation/deviation. For example, in John 21:15-17, there are two different Greek words, with two different meanings, both translated as “love”. When you understand that two different kinds of “love” are used, you then understand that Jesus did not ask Peter the same question three times, but, Jesus actually asked Peter three different questions. The Biblical definition of the word which is translated faith is persuasion. FAITH [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G4102 pistis (From G3982; Believe) Persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. Persuasion 1. The act of persuading; the act of influencing the mind by arguments or reasons 2. The state of being persuaded or convinced; settled opinion or conviction proceeding from arguments and reasons Credence 1. Belief; credit; reliance of the mind on evidence of facts derived from other sources than personal knowledge, as from the testimony of others Conviction 1. The act of proving, determining to be guilty of an offense charged against a person before a legal tribunal; as by the verdict of a jury. Reliance 1. Rest or repose of mind, resulting from a full belief of the veracity or integrity of a person, or of the certainty of a fact; trust; confidence; dependence. We may have perfect reliance on the promises of God Constancy 1. Fixedness; a standing firm 2. Fixedness or firmness of mind; 3. Certainty; veracity; reality. Veracity n. [L. verax, from verus, true.] 1. Habitual observance of truth, or habitual truth 2. Invariable expression of truth BELIEVE [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G3982 peitho (the root word of faith) A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey,[b] persuade, trust, yield. Convince v.t. [L., to vanquish.] 1. To persuade or satisfy the mind by evidence; to subdue the opposition of the mind to truth 2. To convict; to prove 3. To substantiate; to prove. Believe (pisteuo): is used 250 times throughout the New Testament and is translated: believe, believers, believing, believest, believeth, believed, trust. Its origin is from the word Faith. BELIEVE [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G4100 pisteuo (From G4102) to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. Credit 1. Belief; faith; a reliance or resting of the mind on the truth of something said or done. Trust 1. Confidence; a reliance or resting of the mind on the integrity, veracity, justice, friendship or other sound principle of another person. 2. He or that which is the ground of confidence. Confidence 1. A trusting, or reliance; an assurance of mind or firm belief in the integrity, stability or veracity of another, or in the truth and reality of a fact. Biblical Faith is: Persuasion in what God tells us, which convinces us to believe God, and to trust in God, and to rely on God alone to perform what He said in His Word. *** The Greek Word Translated Substance *** Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance… The biblical meaning of the word faith is clear; it means persuasion. The biblical meaning of the word substance is also clear. Substance [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G5287 hupostasis From a compound of G5259: hupo, under; and G2476: histemi, to stand; a setting under (support) You can see the basis of the word substance, when you take the word apart, sub and stance: sub; under, beneath, and stance; to stand. Foundation would be a better translation of the word. So instead of faith being a spiritual substance of power and our prowess/ability to use it; Hebrews 11:1 would be better translated as: Now persuasion in God’s Word is the foundation of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Or expanded it could read: Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God, and reliance on God alone is the foundation of everything I hope for; Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God, and reliance on God alone is the evidence of things I have not yet seen. There is no “power” in biblical faith. The word faith simply means God has persuaded us through His Word, to believe Him, and because we believe Him, we trust in Him, and rely on Him alone to fulfill His Promises to us. Biblical faith is not belief/faith in our own mastery of a “Spiritual Substance of Power”, what some have described as “having faith in our faith”. *** The Full Meaning of the Word Grace *** Grace and Truth came by Jesus The Messiah. God’s Grace, on the other hand, does contain THE POWER OF GOD TO CHANGE US SPIRITUALLY, ETERNALLY. GRACE [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G5485 charis From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially The divine influence upon the heart, [Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.] And its reflection in the life; [Order my steps in your word: and do not let any iniquity/wickedness have dominion over me.] Including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy). Graciousness n. Kind condescension. GRACE [Thayer’s Greek Definitions] G5485 charis 2) good will, loving-kindness, favor 2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting His holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues. God, [Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.] Exerting His holy influence upon souls, [No man is able to come to Me if the Father who sent Me does not give him the desire to come. Make me to go in the path of Your Commandments.] Turns them to Christ, [No man is able to come to Me if he is not given the power to do so by My Father.] Keeps, [Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. I know Him in whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.] Strengthens, [Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might. I can do all things through Messiah who strengthens me.] Increases them in Christian faith, [The Christian doctrines/persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God. Go on fighting strongly for the Christian faith which was once delivered to the saints. God has dealt to every man The Measure of faith (persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God).] Knowledge, [In Messiah are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.] Affection, [Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.] and Kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues. [Now the God of peace… make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.] *** Christians Are God Centered *** Back to Ephesians 2:8-9 “By grace you have been saved, through faith; This is not your own doing: It is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast.” We are saved by grace… Grace… is not our own doing! Grace… is the gift of God! Grace… is not a result of anything we’ve done! It is by Grace… so that no one may boast. Through faith… Faith… is not our own doing! Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us. Faith… is the gift of God! God has dealt to every man the measure of faith. Faith… is not a result of anything we’ve done! But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Through faith… so that no one may boast. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you… according as His divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father… Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God alone unto salvation. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. But he that boasts, let him boast in the Lord. There have always been only two ways: God’s way, or man’s way. By Grace you have been saved, through faith! Is it man centered? I am saved by grace, through My Faith! I am saved by grace; which God only gives, because I released My Spiritual Power of Faith. It is only because I released My Spiritual Power of Faith, that God can save me by grace. Or, is it God centered? I am so persuaded by God, Who said He saved me by His Grace, that I believe I am saved by His Grace, and I trust in His gift of Grace for my salvation, and I rely on His free gift of Grace alone to save me for eternity. Either God gets all the Glory! And no one has anything at all to boast of. 1 Corinthians 1 :30-31, 15:10, 2 Corinthians 4:7, Galatians 6:14, Ephesians 2:4-10, 4:6-7, 5:20, Philippians 4:19, Colossians 1:12-14, 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13, 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 4:11, 5:6,10-11 Or… Man gets the Glory; and we can boast of our own accomplishments. Luke 18:11-14, James 4:13-16 For a Christian it is obvious: Salvation, of body, soul, and spirit; is of The LORD! God Alone Gets All The Glory! The difference can be seen in which word we emphasize in the question asked by Jesus: “Where is your faith?” Now it came to pass on a certain day, that He went into a ship with His disciples: and He said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth. But as they sailed He fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled with water, and were in jeopardy. And they came to Him, and awoke Him, saying, “Master, master, we perish”. Then He arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm. And Jesus said unto them, “Where is your faith?” Luke 8:22-25 As “Overcomers” we were taught: Jesus was rebuking them for coming to Him for help! He was chastising them for not trusting in their own faith; for not relying on their own faith; for not using their own faith to get them out of trouble: “Where is your faith? Where is your own spiritual prowess!? Your ability to use the spiritual power of your own faith!? You should have used your own spiritual prowess to stop the boat from sinking! This is something that you should have been able to do for yourselves ! You should not have needed Me to do it for you! The Christian point of view is looking only to God and not ourselves. Jesus is simply admonishing us to trust and rely on God, our Father; no matter what the situation. “Where is your faith?” Where is your persuasion in God that causes you to believe Him, to trust in Him, and rely on Him to keep us safe, even in the midst of this storm? Jesus tells us to have persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God. Again… And when Jesus departed from there, two blind men followed Him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us. And when He was come into the house, the blind men came to Him: and Jesus said to them, Do you believe that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yes, Lord. Then He touched their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. Matthew 9:27-29 What is the emphasis? Let it be unto you according to your faith: according to your prowess/ability to use the spiritual power of your own faith. But Jesus didn’t ask them if they had enough faith to receive healing; Jesus asked them: “Do you believe that I am able to do this? Their answer was yes, Lord Jesus; we believe that You are able to do this. According to your faith, According to your persuasion in God, that causes you to believe Him, to trust in Him, and to rely on Him to give you your sight. (The Father that dwells in Me, He does the works.) So then your own Spiritual Power/Prowess comes by hearing! Or, So then persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God comes by hearing the Word of God. One is reliance on your own “faith”. As he was “teaching” about Romans 10:17, an “anointed” faith teacher said: If I need faith for something that I am “believing for”, I just say it out loud; and when I hear myself speak, that brings faith: because, faith comes by hearing! The other is looking to God alone. Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God and reliance on God alone comes from listening to the Word of God. If, as one “anointed" teacher said: “God never does anything out of compassion. God only responds to [your] Faith!”; Why then, does God speak about/respond to/act upon His own will, mercy and compassion so many times? Matthew 8:2-3, 9:36, 14:14, 15:32, 20:34, Mark 1:40-41, 5:19, 6:34, 8:2, Luke 5:12-13, 7:12-15, 9:11, 13:11-13, 10:33, 15:20 Romans 9:15, Hebrews 5:2, 1 Peter 3:8, Jude 1:21-22 If Jesus believed the “faith message”: When His apostles asked Him to “increase their faith” He would have told them that to make their faith strong they needed to exercise it daily like a muscle, by “believing God” for their desires, needs, etc.; letting their faith (spiritual substance) “stand in the gap” until the full manifestation of what they are “believing for” comes to pass. Instead, Jesus told them: If they had persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God, as small as a grain of mustard seed, that would be enough to do the impossible. Jesus did not teach that we need to build up our “faith”; instead, He knew that our heavenly Father has given to each of us “The Measure” of faith, and that is more than enough. If Peter believed the “faith message”: Why didn’t he teach it after he and John had healed the lame man at the gate called Beautiful? This would have been the perfect time to teach “the faith message” to those who were wondering how this healing had occurred. Peter would have explained that it was his own Spiritual Substance of Power, his own Spiritual Prowess, which came from his own Great Faith that healed this man. Instead, Peter told them: Why do you look so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? Peter then preaches Jesus The Messiah to them and reveals how the man was healed: And His name; Jesus’ Name, Authority, Character; through persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in Jesus’ Name, Authority, Character, has made this man strong. Luke 9:1-2, 10:1,9,16-17 Peter tells them it was Jesus The Messiah who healed this man not their own “spiritual prowess”. If Paul believed the “faith message”: He would have told Timothy to continue drinking that contaminated water and “believe God” to make it pure for him. He also would have “confessed” perfect health over both Timothy and Trophimus. Instead, Paul told Timothy: Do not drink the water any longer [because it is contaminated], but use a little wine for your stomach's sake [it will help heal your stomach sickness] and your often infirmities. Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick. *** Which Gospel? God's or Man's? *** Back to “Jman’s” insightful statement: “No faith stands… until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.” Jesus told us to “go into the whole world, and preach the gospel to everyone. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming The Word with signs following. Amen.” The answer is clear when you understand what Jesus said He would confirm with signs following. Jesus promised to confirm only one thing with signs following: “The Gospel according to God’s Word”. If there are no signs, it is because we are preaching a different Gospel; not the Gospel according to God’s Word! The “faith message” is a false gospel. The Biblical word gospel means: a good message. G2098 euaggelion From the same as G2097; a good message, that is, the gospel: - gospel. The “gospel” is the foundational message upon which all of your beliefs rest. The "gospel” is the message of salvation by grace through the sacrifice of Jesus which restores us to a right standing with God. The "gospel” is the message that we tell everyone as we evangelize the world in obedience to Jesus who commanded us to: Go into all the world, and preach the good message of salvation through Jesus’ death on the cross, to every creature. He that is persuaded by the good message, and believes the good message, and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe [The gospel/good message] shall be damned. If you believe a false gospel (your foundational message) you are not a Christian, because, there is only one gospel. I marvel that you are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is really no gospel at all; except there are certain people who trouble you, and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I declare to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not made up by man. As a Christian, I am only interested in what God means when He uses a word. What does the word faith or sub-stance mean according to God’s Word The Bible? The words believe and faith are related to each other. They have similar meanings. (see above: G4104, pistis; G3982, peitho; and G4100, pisteuo) Except for Heb 10:23 (which is the word G1680, elpis; which means expectation or confidence) every time the word “faith” is used in the New Testament (regardless of which verse you are using) it is the same word pistis, it means the same thing: persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God. And sub-stance means: hupostasis: under (sub); and to stand (stance); a setting under (support) or foundation. The “faith” of “The Faith Message” is based upon an incorrect English translation and a misunderstanding of the definitions of two Greek words, pistis (faith) and hupostasis (sub-stance). And, An unbiblical, foundational emphasis based on only four words: “faith is the substance”: Which is believed to mean: “faith is a spiritual substance”, “a spiritual substance of power”. The “faith message” teaches faith as a work that we are responsible to produce for ourselves, for our own salvation: Thy Faith Has Saved Thee! You must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling! The Biblical word “faith” cannot be the foundation for a belief in a mystical, spiritual substance of “power” released by us when we truly “believe” because: faith means persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God: and, sub-stance means foundation. The “faith message” is a false gospel designed by men, who “use” God’s Word to teach unbiblical doctrines that seem correct/Biblical to those of us who are following them, because, they “use” the Bible to “prove” their unorthodox teachings as “christian”. These men apply a form of “biblical” interpretation called eisegesis; which allows them to interject their own personal ideas/beliefs/understanding into their “interpretation” of the bible; which they then present as “biblical” by means of biblical “proof-texting”. They start by taking their own unbiblical doctrine(s) and then “seek out” verses that say/prove what they believe; providing “proof” from the “text” of the bible that it is “biblical”. This often requires that certain words, or even whole verses, be taken out of their context, in order to be “understood” as they need/wish them to be. Take for instance the teaching that we alone are responsible to keep ourselves “saved”; which was (along with other verses) proof-texted with : “You must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Sounds right, it is what the Bible says. But, we were never told to read the second half of the verse, which adds: “Because it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” The balance provided by God’s word, persuades us that we can believe Him and trust in Him and rely on Him, to make sure that we not only desire to do His will; but, that God our Father, will empower us, by His Grace, to actually do His will. This one should be very familiar: We were taught to be careful about the words that we speak, because, just like God, we have the “power” to “speak things into being”. And, because we have this “power”, we must not make any “negative confessions” which can “snare” us, and cause us to not receive whatever it is we are “confessing into being”. And the proof-text offered for this “biblical truth”: “You are snared by the words of your mouth, you are taken by the words of your mouth.” But when you look at the context of this verse, you find that, once again, it is only half of the sentence; which in context actually reads: “My son, if you are surety for your friend [co-signer of his loan], if you have stricken your hand with a stranger [given your word that you will do something], You are snared by the words of your mouth, you are taken by the words of your mouth.” This simply means that, if a friend asks you to be a co-signer of his loan; and you promise that you will take on this obligation; or you promise to do something for a stranger: Because “you gave your word”; you are obligated (“snared”) to keep your word/promise. Because, as a follower of The God of The Bible, Who says regarding promises He makes: “God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: has He said, and shall He not do it? or has He spoken, and shall He not make it good?”: we are also required to keep our word whenever we give it. Matthew 5:37 *** The Root of the "Faith Message" *** I know that Hobart Freeman told us not to look into Kenyon’s past or teachings; but, after I left the “church”, I did. I needed to find out what was wrong with what I believed. The “faith message”, as it is currently believed/practiced, began with the teachings of a man named E.W. Kenyon. Kenneth Hagin plagiarized Kenyon's "faith message"; and he taught it to Hobart Freeman and all the other "faith" teachers. You may remember Tom Hamilton’s adage: “People say that what we teach sounds like “christian science”! It’s not “christian science”; it’s christian sense.” In 1892, E.W. Kenyon attended Emerson College, a “spiritual” institution inundated with metaphysical, cultic ideas and practices. Unitarianism, Metaphysics, New Thought, and Mary Baker Eddy’s “christian science” were some of the “spiritual” influences advocated and taught to students at this school. Charles Mallory, a frequent guest lecturer at the college, said of Emerson College, This is a school where the philosophy of life is taught. It ought to be called, “The First Church of Emerson.” The college was named for its founder Charles Wesley Emerson, who was a believer in, and an advocate of: Unitarianism, Metaphysics, New Thought, Mary Baker Eddy’s “christian science”, and Phineas P. Quimby (Eddy’s mentor). *** Believing/Following/Obeying God or Men *** Jesus explains why people do not believe what He says: You do not believe [what I say], because you are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. He that is of God hears, listens to, and obeys God's words: you therefore do not hear, listen to, and obey them, because you are not of God. This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in vain do they worship me, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God. You ignore God's commandments, and you are holding on to the teachings that men have made up. And He said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, so that you may keep your own tradition. Either we are following the teachings of men or we are following God according to His Word. The following story illustrates the point: Not long ago, my wife and I invited an “assistant pastor” (he held a job as a “pastor” for 25 years) from a local “Baptist” “church” to have him look into God’s Word with us to discuss the doctrines we hold as being Biblical i.e., clearly taught in the Bible. We thought we would start with something easy, like marriage/divorce/and remarriage, or tongues. We have often wondered how a Christian could possibly ignore the clear definition of adultery given by Jesus in Matthew 19:3-12, and allow anyone to remarry; regardless of Jesus’ one and only exception for remarriage; or annul the Biblical truth of “tongues” as plainly taught in 1Corinthians 14; I was hoping to dispel the misunderstanding about tongues, that comes from not recognizing that God is speaking about three different “kinds” of tongues in this chapter. I thought the best way to start was to have us read these verses together, and then talk about them: simple enough? But… As our friend started to “read” from his Bible, my wife and I tried to follow along with him but couldn’t. We were all using the King James Version; yet, not even one word that he “read” from his Bible could be found in our King James Bibles. At first this caused much confusion; where are the words that he is “reading” from his bible? Why aren’t those words in our Bibles? Then it dawned on us what was happening: Instead of reading God’s Word to guide us/teach us about tongues… he was “reading” into his bible the “Baptist” doctrine of how “tongues” had passed away and were no longer necessary for the “church” during this time etc., etc., etc. This not only astounded us, it became a valuable lesson, illustrating a serious problem endemic in the “church” and in “christians”: They cannot read, believe, understand, follow, or obey God’s Word; because they only read, believe, understand, follow and obey the doctrines of men. This man was hoping to indoctrinate us into the “Baptist” “teaching” about “tongues”. What he did not know was that we are Jesus’ sheep, Christians, who know, believe and follow God/God’s Word. We cannot follow man’s teachings. Without knowing it, this “pastor” became the “poster-boy” to illustrate exactly what is wrong with the “church” at this point in time: when “christians” “read” God’s Word, they can only hear what men told them to hear; they can only believe what men told them to believe; they can only understand what men told them to understand. This “pastor” was incapable of even reading God’s Word without interjecting man’s interpretation/doctrines directly into the text of the Bible as he “reads” it. This is frightening! Imagine what it would be like to never again hear from God through His Word. To only believe and follow what men tell you to believe and follow? To be incapable of reading God’s Word without filtering it through man’s ideas/interpretation/doctrines/beliefs. To always read God’s Word with a veil over your heart and mind. Their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of God’s Word; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when God’s Word is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Matthew 13:9, 13-15 They teach man-made ideas as if they were the Word of God. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who did not believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. I believe God’s people today are in the same position they were in when Jesus first came to turn them back to God/God’s Word: they didn’t believe or even know the Word of God anymore, because their “religious” “leaders” were teaching their own doctrines and not The Word of God. Mark 1:22,27, 11:18, Luke 4:32,36, John 7:15-17, Matthew 7:28, 22:33, 2 Cor 2:17, Colossians 2:18-22 2Tim 4:1-4, Titus 1:9-16 In the Bible, Christians are those who believe, trust and follow Jesus the Messiah. The Jesus revealed in God’s Word. Throughout my life I have met, and know of, many people who identify themselves as: “Catholics” “Jehovah’s Witness’” “Lutherans” “Red Letter christians” “Baptists” “Methodists” “Mormons” “Charismatics” “Overcomers” And they admit they are following: The Pope/church The Watchtower/Awake/prophets Martin Luther/church The Social gospel/socialist/communist/”reformers” Baptist teachings? The Social gospel/socialist/communist/”reformers” The Book of Mormon/Joseph Smith/Brigham Young/prophets Anointed teachers/apostles/prophets/the Holy Spirit/the still small inner voice/personal revelations/”revelation knowledge” The Faith Message/anointed teachers/apostles/prophets/the Holy Spirit/the still small inner voice/personal revelations/”revelation knowledge” I once found someone online who had almost the exact/same testimony as mine, except, at the end of my testimony, I became a Christian, a follower of Jesus The Messiah. And at the end of his testimony, he became a “christian” AND, a “Lutheran”. “christians” are unsaved “religious” people who are following men instead of following Jesus through God’s Word. All the unbiblical beliefs that they hold to while disregarding the clear teaching of God’s Word to the contrary, are proof that they are following men and not God: Infant baptism, “Sacraments”, the “Eucharist”, the “Mass”, if you go to “church” you are a “christian”, etc. These are more beliefs, taught by men, which are not found anywhere in the New Testament: “Pleading The Blood of Jesus”, “Believeing God For”, “Anointed” teachers, Only “anointed” teachers can “teach” God’s Word, “The Fresh Bread from Heaven”/“The New Word of God”, “Touch not the Lord’s anointed!” Negative/positive “confessions”, We have the power to “speak things into being”, just like God, Christians calling themselves “The End Time Army of God”, Christians calling themselves “Overcomers”, Christians living a “Deeper Life”, “The faith message” i.e., faith is a Spiritual Power. *** Return to God's Word The Bible *** When I started my journey with Messiah Jesus, my wife, my two brothers and I used to sit around with our Bibles open and talk about The Word of God. We used to discuss the Scriptures we had read, and wonder at how great God is. Those days were a great time of fellowship with each other around God’s Word. But, those times of sharing God’s Word ended when we joined “faith assembly” and I lost Christian fellowship with my brothers. My first love was Jesus/God's Word. I would read my Bible (ten chapters) every day and talk about Jesus/God’s Word with every person I met. Deut 6:6-7. This is what I believe Jesus meant about us recognizing that we had forsaken our first love, to remember where we were (spiritually) before we fell, and to stop going any farther in the wrong direction and repent (turn around), and do the first works again. Rev 2:4-5 God “woke me up” when I returned to my first love, about six years ago. Now this is what I am holding on to: the salvation of my heart, soul, mind, body, and spirit by the Grace of God, which is the power of God, to keep me saved, and to keep me safe with Him, now and for all eternity. I am persuaded by what God says to me in The Bible, To believe what God says to me in The Bible, To trust in God as my heavenly Father, And to rely on my heavenly Father, to keep the promises, that He has persuaded me to believe. If you continue in My word, then are you My disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. Set Free by Jesus: The Word of God. His servant and yours Tom Please! Read my entire testimony “How I Met The God Of The Bible” in “Introductions and General”. It will help you to understand why I cannot/will not follow or believe the teachings of men. The foundation for all of my beliefs was, and always will be God’s Word The Bible. (Except for the six-year detour, when I followed/believed the faith message/Hobart Freeman.) Please! Read and carefully consider this entire post before you bring up any questions. Please! Look up the words “faith” and “substance” in “Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible” before you bring up any questions. Please! Let’s stay on one subject at a time. Please! Respond only to the main topic of this post which is: The “faith message” is a false gospel based upon man-made ideas about “faith” being a Spiritual Substance of Power. The entire foundation for their false gospel stands upon two mistranslated words: faith (is the) substance. Which they falsely interpret as: faith is a Spiritual Substance, a Spiritual Substance of Power. And so they misunderstand Heb 11:1 to say: Trust in My Own Spiritual Substance of Power is the only way I can obtain everything I hope for, my Own Spiritual Substance of Power stands in the place of things I am "believing God for" but haven't yet seen. But, God’s Word says: Persuasion in God's Word, belief in God, trust in God and reliance on God alone, is the foundation of everything that I hope for, persuasion in God's Word, belief in God, trust in God and reliance on God alone, is all the evidence I need to believe I will see Him fulfill all of His promises. Biblical faith means: God reasons with us through His Word The Bible, and through His Word He persuades us to believe what He says, which causes us to trust in Him and to rely on Him alone to fulfill His promises.
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith?
Hi Tom, Regarding apostles . . . You said: -------------- Christians have never been without God’s apostles or prophets because God tells us: We are of the household of God; and the household of God is built upon “the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” ...and more ... --------------- I would add that Eph 4 says apolstles are part of the church just like pastors. and that the New Testament pattern is that apostles were part of the normal church Which is why I say something is wrong since we never have seen apostles. ============================================================ ==== ============================================================ ==== I think I read you to say that lack of apostles is an indicator that a church (which is, of course, the people) is false - meaning that real believers will have apostles while non-believers (even if sincerely self deceived) will not. You said: ====================== The Church of God has never been without His apostles and prophets; God’s people never will be without apostles and prophets as long as we continue to listen to/believe/obey God’s Word The Bible. It is religious man’s “church” that is without God’s apostles and prophets. Any child of God can listen to/believe/obey any of God’s true apostles and prophets any time we desire; with complete confidence and assurance that we are hearing The Eternal Word of God written for us at this present time: and this same Word will teach us throughout all of eternity. ===================== The simple logic of what you say is neat and tidy. So let's just all join ourselves to the churches where the apostles are. If we are self-deceived, false believers, they can show us our errors. Better to find out now rather than later. Many of us would have done this very thing except there are no apostles. Your words read as if there are apostles. How could you possibly have known of these men for even one day and not told us? Please let us know where there are apostles and invite us to "try them whose say they are apostles." ============================================================ Jman --------------To busy to mess with sig--------------------
Quote: Tom Wrote: I tried to show him the clear promises of Jesus that we have eternal life and cannot lose it: It is possible to lose ones salvation. To go back into the world and partake of sin is the ticket to lose it. If this is not so why are there so many admonitions in the Word to avoid certain things in the world? Namely "sin".... Quote: I left because I knew that I wasn’t a very good “Overcomer”. This does not sound like a good reason to leave anything. Its like me saying, I left my job because I could not build a house as good as the other guys on the jobsite. I know I am not as good a carpenter as them. Jesus accepts everyone at every level, if we have a heart to seek and obey. 2 Corinthians 10:12-13 12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. 13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. Anyway this is all water under the bridge, what took place twenty years ago proves nothing. What matters is, Are we in right standing with the Lord today? Today is the day of salvation what took place in the past is done and over with, we must all move on into a new chapter in our lives. Gary
I'm sorry Jman, you seem to have missed my point: God's true apostles are still here: the Word of God that they taught, is still here for us to read, learn from and obey; in God's Word The Bible. I suppose that if anyone has successfully completed, all the teachings of Paul, John, Peter, etc. (by that I mean they are walking in perfection relating to everything that Jesus, through His apostles, has admonished us to think, say and do) I could see why they might need to find "new" apostles. As for myself, I am so far behind in following/obeying the written Word of God that I do not personally see the need for any "new" apostles, or, "new" revelations. God's Word is eternal; for all time and beyond; God's true apostles are still here for us as we follow God through His Word The Bible. All scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly equipped unto all good works. Though... This is not the main point of my post. I think that we should try to take the false gospel of “the faith message” first. The "faith message" is based upon wrong definitions of the words "faith" and "substance". Therefore, the "faith message" is a false gospel. We who have believed it were/are on the wrong track; we have been following men and not God. This is why there are no signs ("signs" are not the main issue with God, see Luke 16:27-31, besides, "signs" prove nothing, if you are not following God’s Word). We are not preaching the gospel according to God's Word The Bible. Whatever the “faith” teachers taught us (with few exceptions) is based upon the ideas of men presented as "biblical/christian", but they are not based upon the clear teaching of God's Word The Bible. Christians will see this because even though we followed these men for a time, we are Jesus' sheep and we will always be brought back to Jesus. John 10:4-5,25-30 Tom
Hi Tom You said : God's true apostles are still here: the Word of God that they taught, is still here for us to read, learn from and obey; in God's Word The Bible. ======== thanks for responding. Now I know what you mean. Jman ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 149 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
Gary… Let me take your second point first. As a Christian carpenter, if my work is not up to snuff, I am obligated to leave; so as not to give a bad witness to others. I wasn’t measuring myself against others: What drove me to leave the “church” wasn’t a concern about anyone else: I was deeply concerned about my own imperfections, my own sin! I was afraid of the effect my sin would have on our assembly being used of God for the “Greater Works” ministry He was preparing them for. I left for the benefit of the other “Overcomers”. I left to stop any hindrances to the “assembly” that may have been due to my lack of perfection. The man who was our “anointed” “pastor” called me on the phone to ask me why I had not been coming to the meetings. He actually had no idea why he was calling, or that we had previously talked about my situation. He was just giving me a “courtesy call”; you know, something a “pastor” is required to do every once in a while; to show people that he really cares. Anyway: this “anointed” “pastor” agreed with my reasons for staying away, and he encouraged me not to come back until I “got things straightened out” on my own. Ironically, he had just recently “taught” that anyone who feels that they should stay away from the meetings/”church” to get themselves “straightened out” on their own, is not doing the right thing. He pointed out that we are required to stay the course and keep coming to the “church” because that is the only way to “get things straightened out”. (Why he felt that this recent message did not apply to me, I can’t be sure; but, personally, I don’t think that he liked me very much. I think he was glad to find a way to be rid of me — apart from just telling me he didn’t want me in his “church”.) Now to your belief that you can lose your salvation: All I can say is, many people believe this man-made doctrine, but, I no longer believe men. Because, either I choose to believe what men say. Or, I choose to believe Jesus. And: I am persuaded by God’s Word, to believe what He said, and to trust and rely on Jesus alone who tells me, over and over again: I already possess eternal life! John 5:24, 6:35,37,39,40,44,47,50,51,54,57,58, 10:27-29, 11:25-26 Jesus said referring to those who had been doing miracles in His name I NEVER knew you; you were NEVER one of My sheep. “My sheep hear My voice, and I KNOW them, and They follow Me: and I give to them eternal life; and They shall NEVER [no, not at all, not by ANY means] perish, [The word “never” (in the Greek) is an emphatic double negative; there isn’t any way at all for His sheep to perish!] Neither shall ANY PERSON take them out of My hand.” [I myself am a “person” so this promise includes me. I cannot perish myself!] Every Work of God is Perfect, Complete, Lacking Nothing. It is an insult to God’s Intelligence, Mercy and Compassion to say He doesn’t understand that: When it comes to our ability to obey God: we are our own worst enemies. God’s Perfect Work of Salvation would have to include saving us from our own unbelief, our own faithlessness, our own wandering, our own disobedience, our own sinfulness, our own wickedness… in other words: Our sinful, hopeless, evil, SELVES! Romans 3:10-12, Jeremiah 4:22, Micah 7:2, Luke 18:19 If I were to believe what you say, that it is possible to lose your salvation. I would have to believe that Jesus was lying, or, didn’t know what He was talking about. I am sorry… When it comes to the clear teaching of Jesus saving me and giving me eternal life—Jesus says, that I already have eternal life: Jesus says, that I cannot lose it: Jesus says, I shall never perish. I believe that Jesus is able to save me to the uttermost because I came unto God by Him. Why would I ignore the clear Words of Jesus promising to keep me saved forever? And believe the ideas of men, who, if I believe what they say, it would mean that Jesus was lying when He promised to save me for eternity? For me the choice is clear: I am persuaded by God, to believe what He says, and to trust what He says, and to rely on what He says in His Word The Bible. I will believe and follow the Lord Jesus The Messiah! I will never again believe/follow the made-up doctrines of men. The Eternal Security of the Believer is too large a topic to go into here; besides: The topic under discussion is: The “faith message” is based upon wrong definition of the words “faith” and “substance”. Therefore, the “faith message” is a false gospel. Tom
Tom, Regarding your premise that it is impossible to loose one's genuine salvation . . . How do you deal with Heb 6:4-6 ?
Tom. There is so much you say regarding faith that I cannot boil it down into clear concepts. Could you please walk through a modern faith example of a person asking God for a specific thing. Say, for example, they have a sore throat, and they are going to ask for it to be healed. Go ahead and leave out Heb 11:1 Please describe the person's application of Mk 11:24 (believe receive now and shall have it later). Please be concise. Maybe draw a contrast between what you are saying and how you remember it was taught. Thanks. Jman -
I'd like to respond to and discuss a number of the issues you brought up but it will have to wait for the weekend. See you then
Tom, I just went through the NT to see what did God say about faith and healing. This is just something I wanted to do so I would have better understanding of what the Bible is saying and not so much what I was taught it was saying. Invariably I came away with the conclusion that Jesus is the one who was always bringing up a persons faith in Him. The NT says, when the Son of Man returns will He find faith. You do not realize how many times I have looked to the Lord by faith that He always came through for me. I have not come to some complete understanding of every aspect but I do know it works. Will share more later on your other responses, thanks for being patient on this matter here, must contemplate all the subject matter. GaryB
Tom, One more quick note. I must say that if we live in gross sin, I cannot expect a Holy God just to overlook some sin. Sin is an abomination to the Lord. God sent His Son to the cross to make a way to forgive us of our sins and also to make a way where we can live above sin and not be slaves to it. If we sin we have an advocate with the Father who will cleanse us of sin if we repent and confess it to Him. But to continue serving sin and trying to find some loop hole in the Bible to excuse it I do not think this is something the Lord would support. He is the one who made us free so we do not have to serve sin in our bodies. If we shun sin and forsake it in our lives, then yes we will have the eternal state to look forward to, and nothing will pluck us out of the hands of a Holy God. Gary
I have learned that faith works by going through grace, first. Is this a part of what you are trying to convey?
I have taken a very quick look at your post here and really disagree with much of what you said. You also ( with no criticism intended) don't seem to have a very solid grasp of the faith message and what was actually taught. Here is an example speaking of salvation . . . Sounds right, it is what the Bible says. But, we were never told to read the second half of the verse, which adds: “Because it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” The teaching was that as we persevere God preserves. There is an abundance of scripture speaking to both sides of the issue. All you have done is quote all the vs that speak to God preserving. Which he does. But there is also an obligation on us to hold fast to it. Much scripture on that point. You are confusing God's elective process which starts and ends in Gods own heart with the work of salvation in this world. Gods preserves as we persevere. A two way street with both of us involved. And as anyone who has gone through anything serious knows sometimes it is God doing a whole lot of preserving Also you seem to be confusing a lot of info from the "word of faith" people with the faith message. And admittedly there is a lot of everlap. But even leaving aside that most of them teach JDS they go far too far with their teaching on faith. I saw that with just a quick reading of your post here. Also HEF did not teach sinless perfection in this life. He tauht there was a perfection attainable here but it is mainly a perfection of maturity the fruits of the spirit and love. That is right in the deeper life book. If I have misrepresented your positions here I apologize. I have only had time to do a quick reading.
Please… Before we go any further… We can discuss the various subjects in my post at a later date, I you wish. But, for the present: As a starting point, we need to establish which definition is true according to God’s Word: Is Biblical faith: An actual, tangible, Spiritual Substance; a real Spiritual Power which is released by us through the act of “believing”: A Power that we are required to obtain for ourselves; to store it up; to strengthen it; so that we will become “strong in faith”. The same Spiritual Substance of Power that God used to make the universe: Through [the spiritual substance of] faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. We understand that it was through the spiritual substance of faith that God made everything by speaking the Word of Faith. Or, Is Biblical faith: Persuasion in what God says, which causes us to Believe God, and to Trust in God, and Rely on God alone to fulfill His Promises? Can we please first establish the Biblical definitions of the words “faith” and “substance”? If you haven’t done so; please look them up in “Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible”. If I am wrong about the clear Biblical meaning of the Greek words pistis “faith” and hupostasis “sub-stance”: Explain how I have misunderstood them. If I am wrong about the clear Biblical meaning of the Greek words pistis “faith” and hupostasis “sub-stance”: What do they actually mean, and where did you get your definitions? I am only interested in what God means when He uses a Word: what do these Words mean according to God’s Word The Bible? If faith means Persuasion, belief, trust and reliance on God, and… Sub-stance means Foundation: Then “The Faith Message” is a false gospel, whose foundation is the man-made idea that “faith is a Spiritual Substance of Power”. This is the topic I would like to explore with you. Please leave the other topics for some later date. His servant and yours Tom P.S. If you do not have a “Strong’s”, you can get one with the computer program “e-Sword” at www.e-sword.com. The program is free. You download it to your computer, so you can use it at any time, without having to go online. It comes with the King James Version of the Bible, and I think you can download several other versions free as well. But, I need to caution you about a few things relating to "e-Sword". The other versions of the “bible” that come free are NOT Bibles written by God for His children; instead, they are “bibles” written by men for men; containing men’s understanding, and men’s ideas/beliefs. It also comes with “men’s commentaries”, and I have found very few of them to be of any help at all. I can only recommend the “commentaries” of Wesley (John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes), Gill (John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible), and Henry (Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible). I suggest that if you want to find his thoughts on any particular subject, you first use MHCC (Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary) which is his “shortened/edited” version of his commentary. I must add this caveat; I have found these three commentators helpful only on occasion, I have often found that what they believe the passage is saying is NOT what I believe the passage is saying. I do however find; that what I see in God’s Word is sometimes seen by others as well. Even though I seek out confirmation or refutation of my exegesis, I still trust and believe God’s Word alone as my final Authority.
Tom, Regarding faith . . . I say faith is believe you receive when you pray. - comes from Mk 11:24 Definitions from the 1800's, 1900's, or 2000's are not proving anything. You need to demonstrate the common word usage in the first century - the Bible was written to normal people of that era not the 1800's. If you want to remove Heb 11:1 ( the substance idea ) then go ahead . . . for yourself. You can still have a vibrant faith doctrine. And if others believe faith is a spiritual substance it is not a "false gospel". You can call it persuasion or anything you want as long as you believe you receive when you pray = BRWP . This BRWP faith is how people get saved and how they get other things from God. Please communicate how your faith concept works if it is different than BRWP. This will be the main point of discussions about what faith is. ======================= Beyond that you seem to be debating the irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints of Calvinism. This debate is never ending if someone wants to haggle because it contrasts man's responsibility and freewill over against God's sovereignty, predestination and election of the saints, and foreknowledge of all man's (free) choices. Pretty heavy stuff. This Calvanism debate is not worth doing in my opinion. "Strong" proof texts can be had on both sides of the issue. In the end both sides of the debate are Biblically true even though they seem contradictory to our limited minds. If you do not want to address Heb 6:4-6 regarding loosing a genuine salvation then don't, but you can convince no one of your ideas if they are manifestly contrary to Scripture. ========================== Jman ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 150 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
Quote: Tom wrote: Please… Before we go any further… We can discuss the various subjects in my post at a later date, I you wish. But, for the present: As a starting point, we need to establish which definition is true according to God’s Word: I can understand your concern not to veer off of a topic. Here is my thinking on this, the Word of God is spiritually discerned and to be able to understand what the Spirit of God is showing us, we must be walking in the Spirit. If a person is involved in sin and has sin in their lives then they become blinded to the Word of God, at that point we're only disputing over "words" and generally its something pulled out of context. Romans 6:13-15 I do think it is all tied in together and is relative, in this case because you are claiming that the faith message is a false gospel. Quote: Tom Wrote: I think that we should try to take the false gospel of “the faith message” first. Tom For one thing the faith message is not a "Gospel". There are only four Gospels. The faith message is something that Jesus mentions to each individual He came in contact with while ministering. That is why "He said", you have little faith, no faith, great faith, your faith has made you whole, etc. etc.. This message is within the Gospels. Secondly the scripture you give in Hebrews 11:1 needs to be taken into context with all the following verses which explain what God is trying to show about those with faith. So I hope you can see and understand that sin blinded those in Israel from the things of God, and it can blind a man today as well. This is why the Bible speaks against sin in a believers life. This is my main concern here that any individual with admitted sin in their life can be blinded to the simple truths found in the Bible. This is why I think we should address the whole subject matter that you shared here. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Gary
A_Smoking_Flax wrote on Tue, 28 May 2013 01:28 Am I misunderstanding what is going on, or has the original post been deleted? By Tom?, William?, or a moderator? How can the post be discussed if it can't be read(especially since it's so long...after all, it took Tom months to write, and it's taken me days to go through it) Hope it's not a case of someone being offended(taking their ball and going home.) I have noticed that almost EVERYONE has logged on to read the post and yet only a few have replied...My excuse,lol, is that my computer time is limited, so imagine my supprise today when I logged in to find 15 comments. BTW: I don't know if Tom did this with everyone or not but I have the entire post as a PM, if others do they can still go over the contents of the post. While I've always thought there were mis-applications of the Biblical truth of FAITH (probably always has been and always will be...myself included) and how to apply it to daily life, I am "PERSUADED" that God's Word is true. And I believe not only in the "promises ", but I believe in He who made the promises, God Himself. Also, for those who enjoy debating with others, you can't be a very successful debater if you're easily offended by someone taking an opposing viewpoint. If you're convienced you're 'right' concerning the 'faith message' being false, then prove it. Again when one says 'faith message' that doesn't always mean the same thing to every person. I believe the 'faith message' as taught by those who also teach the 'prosperity message' today as seen usually on TBN, GodTV, The Church Channel, ect. are teaching a false 'gospel/message'. Though human logic will easily lead a person to 'like' this 'gospel'...(remember, gospel means good news) and the easy to follow directions of giving<sowing> X amout of money in order to get X times 100 back is indeed 'good news' to those who are motivated by greed and self-centerness. Final thought, if true faith is present in our lives (faith that we've experienced personally through relationship with God) we won't be afraid to discuss or examine what we believe. Love to all...
Gillyann, I am Sorry that I took so long to answer you. Yes, you are correct. If it wasn't for The Grace of God I wouldn't be saved, or able to understand Him, believe Him, or obey Him. Because by grace we are saved through persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in Him; and that is not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Now unto him that is able to keep us from falling, and to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen. His servant and yours Tom
Quote: A_Smoking_Flax wrote on Tue, 28 May 2013 01:28 Quote: James Wrote: Am I misunderstanding what is going on, or has the original post been deleted? By Tom?, William?, or a moderator? How can the post be discussed if it can't be read(especially since it's so long...after all, it took Tom months to write, and it's taken me days to go through it) Hope it's not a case of someone being offended(taking their ball and going home.) You Alabaminions do have a sense of humor.
Biblical faith means: Being so persuaded by what our heavenly Father says in His Word, that it causes us to believe what He says, and we then trust in Him, and rely on Him alone to do what He promised in His Word The Bible. I have no problem with that at all. But you are setting that against faith being what one uses to believe "with" In other words it is not just mental assent. We are believing with the heart. Faith is the persuasion or foundation with which we respond to God. It is the evidence we have the answer we seek. It is by grace through faith. His unmerited favor upon us in causing us to hear the gospel. It is that faith (persuasion foundation evidence) that God uses to make the answer out of. In this case the cleansing and renewal of a persons life.
"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Gal.3:6 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8 "...Obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Is this not "blind faith " ? Abraham believed God was who He revealed Himself to be, and that He would do what He promised him He would do...he didn't attempt to 'reason it out' or grasp it with his intellect...he believed and obeyed...and as promised, God delivered. "Faith never knows where it is being lead, but it loves and knows the One who is leading." Oswald Chambers "Let God be true but every man a liar, is the language of true faith." A W Tozer
PLEASE! PLEASE! Read the Biblical definitions of the words “faith” and “substance” before you continue to teach me about “the faith message”. The same “faith message” that I have known and understood for 33 years. The same “faith message” that I followed, with full knowledge and understanding, for six years, i.e., I lived by “faith” for six years. Please do not attempt to ignore my simple request to go to “Strong’s” and read these definitions for yourself because of an unfounded presupposition: That I have never been a follower of “the faith message” or never actually understood “the faith message”. I was raised in “the faith message”. I know everything that you know about “the faith message”. I understand everything that you understand about “the faith message”. I believed everything that you believe about “the faith message”. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- I am asking each of you that have participated in this post, here and in the original post in “Theological Doctrine” under the heading “The Occult”, to answer this one question before we continue: MARK L, WILLIAM, GILLYANN, JAMES, GARY, RON, SUE, AND “JMAN”: HAVE YOU LOOKED UP THE DEFINITION OF THE WORDS “FAITH” AND “SUB-STANCE” IN “STRONG’S EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE OF THE BIBLE”? ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- The Topic of My Post; The Topic That I Wish To Discuss, Is: What Is The Biblical Meaning Of The Word Translated “Faith”? PLEASE LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF THE WORDS PISTIS/FAITH AND HUPOSTASIS/SUB-STANCE IN “STRONG’S EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE OF THE BIBLE”. AND EXPLAIN TO ME HOW I HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD THE CLEAR MEANING OF THESE TWO SIMPLE WORDS? ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------- The Biblical definition of the word which is translated faith is persuasion. FAITH [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G4102 pistis (From G3982; Believe) Persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. Persuasion 1. The act of persuading; the act of influencing the mind by arguments or reasons 2. The state of being persuaded or convinced; settled opinion or conviction proceeding from arguments and reasons Credence 1. Belief; credit; reliance of the mind on evidence of facts derived from other sources than personal knowledge, as from the testimony of others Conviction 1. The act of proving, determining to be guilty of an offense charged against a person before a legal tribunal; as by the verdict of a jury. Reliance 1. Rest or repose of mind, resulting from a full belief of the veracity or integrity of a person, or of the certainty of a fact; trust; confidence; dependence. We may have perfect reliance on the promises of God Constancy 1. Fixedness; a standing firm 2. Fixedness or firmness of mind; 3. Certainty; veracity; reality. Veracity n. [L. verax, from verus, true.] 1. Habitual observance of truth, or habitual truth 2. Invariable expression of truth BELIEVE [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G3982 peitho (the root word of faith) A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey,[b] persuade, trust, yield. Convince v.t. [L., to vanquish.] 1. To persuade or satisfy the mind by evidence; to subdue the opposition of the mind to truth 2. To convict; to prove 3. To substantiate; to prove. Believe (pisteuo): is used 250 times throughout the New Testament and is translated: believe, believers, believing, believest, believeth, believed, trust. Its origin is from the word Faith. BELIEVE [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G4100 pisteuo (From G4102; faith) to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ):- believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. Credit 1. Belief; faith; a reliance or resting of the mind on the truth of something said or done. Trust 1. Confidence; a reliance or resting of the mind on the integrity, veracity, justice, friendship or other sound principle of another person. 2. He or that which is the ground of confidence. Confidence 1. A trusting, or reliance; an assurance of mind or firm belief in the integrity, stability or veracity of another, or in the truth and reality of a fact. Biblical Faith is: Persuasion in what God tells us, which convinces us to believe God, and to trust in God, and to rely on God alone to perform what He said in His Word. *** The Greek Word Translated Substance *** Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance… The biblical meaning of the word faith is clear; it means persuasion. The biblical meaning of the word substance is also clear. Substance [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G5287 hupostasis From a compound of G5259: hupo, under; and G2476: histemi, to stand; a setting under (support) You can see the basis of the word substance, when you take the word apart, sub and stance: sub; under, beneath, and stance; to stand. Foundation would be a better translation of the word. So instead of faith being a spiritual substance of power and our prowess/ability to use it; Hebrews 11:1 would be better translated as: Now persuasion in God’s Word is the foundation of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Or expanded it could read: Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God, and reliance on God alone is the foundation of everything I hope for; Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God, and reliance on God alone is the evidence of things I have not yet seen. There is no “power” in biblical faith. The word faith simply means God has persuaded us through His Word, to believe Him, and because we believe Him, we trust in Him, and rely on Him alone to fulfill His Promises to us. Biblical faith is not belief/faith in our own mastery of a “Spiritual Substance of Power”, what some have described as “having faith in our faith”. PLEASE! PLEASE! Look up these two words. His servant and yours Tom
james wrote on Sat, 01 June 2013 13:00 While I've always thought there were mis-applications of the Biblical truth of FAITH (probably always has been and always will be...myself included) and how to apply it to daily life, I am "PERSUADED" that God's Word is true. And I believe not only in the "promises ", but I believe in He who made the promises, God Himself. Tom, First I doubt any of us could teach you anything, so don't presume that I'm trying. And I did look the two words up as you requested. Actually I'm not even sure what your point is, to me it seems that you're convienced that if a person (Christian/christian) doesn't or didn't define the words as you chose to, or happen to use the same reference books (Strong's) you use then they don't know or have true Biblical faith. Some use F-A-I-T-H...Forsaking All I Trust Him. Others use what the Bible says, Heb.11:1, yet those who are born again know that regardless of how one attempts to articulates what they have experienced and know they have received of God, their faith is in God and God alone. And speaking for myself only, but being fairly confident in what the other members here believe, I don't think anyone would or has ever disagreed with the definitions found in Strong's that you copied. Bottom line...I'm saved by faith (believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what Jesus did on my behalf at Calvary in paying for my sins with His sinless, pure, Holy Blood, because He alone was/is the acceptable sacrifice. I'm healed by faith (by believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what God's Word tells me that Jesus did on my behalf (by His stripes I am healed) and so it goes for whatever I'm trusting/believing Him for...protection, deliverance, wisdom, forgiveness, mercy, producing fruit of righteousness, ect. I receive it from Him by believing, asking, and expecting...because I'm an overcomer? NO! because I'm special above others? NO! No, I receive because I am trusting Him to do what He said He would do...Just like I was saved, I believed in my heart that He, Jesus, was The Son of God and died and rose again to reconcile me to God, and I confessed with my mouth what I believed in my heart...It was totally by His Grace, by faith...which was a freely given gift. So I'm not sure just what your beef is with "the faith message", but the faith message I have received is obviously different than what you've received.
james wrote on Sat, 08 June 2013 21:05 james wrote on Sat, 01 June 2013 13:00 While I've always thought there were mis-applications of the Biblical truth of FAITH (probably always has been and always will be...myself included) and how to apply it to daily life, I am "PERSUADED" that God's Word is true. And I believe not only in the "promises ", but I believe in He who made the promises, God Himself. Tom, First I doubt any of us could teach you anything, so don't presume that I'm trying. And I did look the two words up as you requested. Actually I'm not even sure what your point is, to me it seems that you're convienced that if a person (Christian/christian) doesn't or didn't define the words as you chose to, or happen to use the same reference books (Strong's) you use then they don't know or have true Biblical faith. Some use F-A-I-T-H...Forsaking All I Trust Him. Others use what the Bible says, Heb.11:1, yet those who are born again know that regardless of how one attempts to articulates what they have experienced and know they have received of God, their faith is in God and God alone. And speaking for myself only, but being fairly confident in what the other members here believe, I don't think anyone would or has ever disagreed with the definitions found in Strong's that you copied. Bottom line...I'm saved by faith (believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what Jesus did on my behalf at Calvary in paying for my sins with His sinless, pure, Holy Blood, because He alone was/is the acceptable sacrifice. I'm healed by faith (by believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what God's Word tells me that Jesus did on my behalf (by His stripes I am healed) and so it goes for whatever I'm trusting/believing Him for...protection, deliverance, wisdom, forgiveness, mercy, producing fruit of righteousness, ect. I receive it from Him by believing, asking, and expecting...because I'm an overcomer? NO! because I'm special above others? NO! No, I receive because I am trusting Him to do what He said He would do...Just like I was saved, I believed in my heart that He, Jesus, was The Son of God and died and rose again to reconcile me to God, and I confessed with my mouth what I believed in my heart...It was totally by His Grace, by faith...which was a freely given gift. So I'm not sure just what your beef is with "the faith message", but the faith message I have received is obviously different than what you've received. Amen!
Hi Tom, As you know the word for substance in Heb 11:1 is "hupostasis." If you do an internet search for "hupostasis in Bible" and check out some of the top Google responses you will find that the way we used to say it is a spiritual substance is validated by scholars as one possible definition of hupostasis. ================================ 1) Would you accept that we are all in agreement that faith is believing God? That it is done by believing you receive when you pray? That it operates because believers are fully PERSUADED that God will do what is promissed? 2) Would you accept that faith as a spiritual substance (as taught) is a possible interpretation of Heb 11:1? --- Assuming you agree with these two topics then maybe move on to discuss if we were too proud of our faith or too focussed on ourselves in place of God. Seems I remember you making those points. But drop the attacks that we had a false gospel and that the faith message was incorrect. And drop the the idea that using word definitions from Strongs and modern English dictionaries is enough to make doctrine. Knowing the Greek word definitions requires knowing the Greek definitions used by the common people in the first century - something we all go to scholars for - Thayers and Vines are both more insightful than Strongs. Also a Greek lexicon is pretty neat - a listing of every usage of each Greek word in the New Testament. ================================= Regarding the word definitions for faith and substance . . . Faith is "believe you receive when you pray" - comes from being fully persuaded, and persuasion comes from Word of God - Rom 10:17 ----- hupostasis can mean: underlying essence essence or substance - that which stands under the outward form that which has foundation, is firm that which has actual existence a substance, real being the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing (do the Google search and note the scholars) so we are allowed to believe this as taught Jman ========================================================= At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 159 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
Jman has a good point which we see verified in almost every dictionary/lexicon dealing with words and their meanings. For instance, when you look up any word you'll usually find multiple meanings of that word. Context determines the particular meaning. Speaking generally, the particular meaning that is adopted for a particular context excludes the other meanings. I say generally, because there may be times when the ideas expressed in the other primary or secondary senses help us to understand the fuller idea of the word but the job of the translator is to give us the best definition --the one that best expresses the intentions of the writer. As a southerner I might say something like --"I walked into the 7/11 and bought me ah coke". Someone unfamiliar with southern culture might translate the sense of my words and conclude that I bought me a Coca-Cola (a registered trademark of The Coca-Cola Company). A person from the eastern seaboard might get closer to the meaning by saying that I had bought a "soda". A Hoosier might use the term "pop". Now who would be right? Well, you'd need to look at the context to determine that. The context would probably lead a discerning person away from the technical term "coca-cola" because they would note that the insertion of the "me ah" (as in "bought me ah...") and conclude that they were translating the words of a red-neck from Alabama. Under these circumstances the translation would naturally reflect this and depending on the geography the most likely translation would be "pop" or "soda" or literally "a fizzy/carbonated beverage" -- not "Coca-Cola". Context and culture are important ingredients when considering the sense of any text, scripture or otherwise. I took Jman's advice and googled the term and this random site seemed to express a fair representation of the "hupostasis" controversy: http://hopefaithprayer.com/faith/faith-is-hebrews-111-hupost asis/ Blessings, William
William, Very humorous analogy. If I drank sugary drinks I would probably run down and get me ah a "Pop" about now as well. We use "me ah" up here as well. You learn something new everyday, I did not know also they had red necks in Alabama, I thought it was all "Southern gentlemen". Gary
Alanbook wrote on Mon, 10 June 2013 06:15 We use "me ah" up here as well. I've heard-tell that some of our kin moved north after the aggression... say hello to great-grannie for me...
Tom Wrote; First: Shortly after I started my response to Mark L's post, I sustained serious nerve damage to my leg. The damage was so severe that I could no longer walk or sit upright very long without aggravating the damage and causing a lot of pain. One of the positions that aggravates the damage is sitting at my computer. As I stated before; the only position that helps lessen the pain is sitting in a lounge chair with my feet up and a heating pad on the damaged area. Recovery has been very slow, as is common with nerve damage, and I have been too active at times which has caused the past and current delays in my response time. ************************************************************ ************************** Praise God brother Tom, You must have recovered from this trail as your responses have been forth coming. Could you share your thoughts and actions as you overcame this Trail and what brought an end to this suffering and pain.
In this post I have answered questions raised by several of you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gary… You said: “I just went through the NT to see what did God say about faith and healing. This is just something I wanted to do so I would have better understanding of what the Bible is saying and not so much what I was taught it was saying.” “Invariably I came away with the conclusion that Jesus is the one who was always bringing up a person’s faith [persuasion in God’s Word, belief in God’s Word, trust in God’s Word, and reliance on God’s Word].” * That is correct; Jesus wants us to believe Him, trust in Him, and rely on Him alone; and to stop trusting in our own abilities/works. ============================================================ ======================= Gary said: “The NT says, when the Son of Man returns will He find faith [people who have been so persuaded by what He says, that they believe what He says, and trust in Him, and rely on Him alone, to do what He promised].” * That is correct; Jesus will be looking for those of us who have been persuaded by the reasons He gives us to believe in Him, trust in Him, and rely on Him alone. He will be looking for those of us who have stopped trusting in our own abilities/works, and simply trust in Him. ============================================================ ======================= Gary said: “Tom For one thing the faith message is not a "Gospel". There are only four Gospels. [The faith] message is within the Gospels.” * You are confusing the man made “titles” of the four books written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; “The Gospel According To Matthew”, “The Gospel According To Mark, etc. with the Biblical word “gospel”. The Biblical word “gospel” means: a good message. G2098 euaggelion From the same as G2097; a good message, that is, the gospel: - gospel. The “gospel” is the foundational message upon which all of your beliefs rest. The "gospel” is the message of salvation by grace through the sacrifice of Jesus which restores us to a right standing with God. The "gospel” is the message that we tell everyone as we evangelize the world in obedience to Jesus who commanded us to: Go into all the world, and preach the good message of salvation through Jesus’ death on the cross, to every creature. He that is persuaded by the good message, and believes the good message, and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe [the good message] shall be damned. The entire Bible, everything that God has said to us, is “the gospel” the good message. If you believe a false gospel (your foundational message) you are not a Christian, because, there is only one gospel. I marvel that you are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is really no gospel at all; except there are certain people who trouble you, and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I declare to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not made up by man. ============================================================ ======================= Gary said: “The faith message is something that Jesus mentions to each individual He came in contact with while ministering.” * This is not true at all. Jesus does not mention “the faith message” to anyone, ever. You are confusing Biblical faith that Jesus talked about, with the man made idea that “faith” is a Spiritual Substance of Power, That “faith” is belief without any reason or evidence. These are ideas/doctrines made up by one man, E.W. Kenyon. If Jesus believed the “faith message”: When His apostles asked Him to “increase their faith” He would have told them that to make their faith strong they needed to exercise it daily like a muscle, by “believing God” for their desires, needs, etc.; letting their faith (spiritual substance) “stand in the gap” until the full manifestation of what they are “believing for” comes to pass. Instead, Jesus told them: If they had persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God, as small as a grain of mustard seed, that would be enough to do the impossible. Jesus did not teach that we need to build up our “faith”; instead, He knew that our heavenly Father has given to each of us “The Measure” of faith, and that is more than enough. ============================================================ ======================= Gary said: “That is why "He said", you have little faith, no faith, great faith, your faith has made you whole, etc. etc.” * Faith means: persuasion, belief, trust, and reliance on God alone. Jesus wants us to have complete trust and reliance in Him alone: Not trust in anything we can do to be saved/healed/etc., trusting in our own spiritual prowess/abilities/works. ============================================================ ======================= Gary said: ”This is my main concern here that any individual with admitted sin in their life can be blinded to the simple truths found in the Bible. This is why I think we should address the whole subject matter that you shared here. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” * Gary… Am I to understand that you believe I am “in sin”? And, because you believe that I am “in sin”: You believe that I would be unable to read the Biblical definition from “Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible”. And that I would be incapable of comprehending the meaning of the Greek word pistis/faith? The same word that Jesus used when He taught us to trust and rely on God alone for salvation/healing/needs:? Because you believe I am “in sin”, you think: That is the reason I believe the Biblical definition of the word “faith”, And not the false definition of faith believed/invented/taught by E.W. Kenyon: Who taught it to Kenneth Hagin, who believed it and taught it to Hobart Freeman, Copeland, Et Al.? My admitted lack of “sinless perfection” was 27 years ago? Do you believe that I have been “in sin” for 27 years? Is it because I believe the Biblical meaning of the word faith; that you believe there is unrepentant “sin” in my life? Am I also to understand that you are, at this present time, “without sin”? John 8:7 And, because you are “sinless”, and you believe that I am not; You therefore can understand the biblical definition of the word “faith”, as it is defined in “Strong’s”, but, I cannot? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark L said: “I have no problem with that [the Biblical definition of faith] that at all. But you are setting that [the Biblical meaning of the word faith] against faith being what one uses to believe "with" * That is correct: I am setting the Biblical definition of the Greek word that Jesus used and meant, against the man-made, false definition of the word “faith” that E.W. Kenyon misunderstood/invented and taught to Kenneth Hagin, who taught it to Hobart Freeman, Kenneth Copeland, Et Al. THERE IS ONLY ONE “FAITH” in God’s Word The Bible. (The only other meaning of the word “faith” is “The Christian Faith” i.e., the Biblical doctrines that make up “The Christian Faith”. Jude 1:3, 1Timothy 4:1) There is only one Biblical meaning for the word that Jesus used when He was teaching us to believe God, to trust in God, and to rely on God alone for everything. There is only one Biblical meaning for the word faith: We are so persuaded by the reasons God gives to us, in His Word, That those reasons cause us to believe what God says to us, in His Word, And, because we believe what He says, in His Word, we trust in Him to do what He promised, in His Word, And, because we trust Him to do what He promised, we rely on Him alone to fulfill all of the promises He made to us. ============================================================ ======================= Mark said: “In other words it is not just mental assent. We are believing with the heart.” * You have presented an unbiblical, false dichotomy: “mental assent” vs. “believing with the heart.” Many people believe that there are two kinds of belief: mental assent or, “head knowledge”; and heart knowledge. They believe that true “faith” is belief without any evidence or reason whatsoever. They also believe, that this kind of “believing”, “heart knowledge”, is vastly superior to using your mind to “understand” God’s Word. How does anyone get God’s Word “into their heart”? Everyone who ever got God’s Word “into their heart”, got it “into their heart” by reading and understanding God’s Word. We get God’s Word “into our heart” by asking God for “eyes to see” and “ears to hear” and for hearts and minds to understand His Word and obey it. Matthew 13:13-15 Because… In God’s Word there is no disparity between the mind/understanding and the heart. You cannot have heart knowledge without first having head knowledge/reason/understanding. They work together. According to God’s Word: If you do not understand God’s Word, Satan can take God’s Word out of your heart. When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes, and steals that which was sown in his heart. Look up the Biblical meaning of the Greek word translated “heart”? G2588 Kardia The heart [the physical organ], that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle. Every time the word heart is used in The New Testament, it means the same thing: Your thoughts or feelings, your mind (except for Eph 6:6 where it means a man’s “spirit”). God links our hearts with our thoughts; even in the Old Testament (Heart: H3820, H3824). Matthew 13:15,19,23 understand with their heart, (verse 19) When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes, and steals that which was sown in his heart. (verse 23) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Matthew 9:4, 24:48, 22:37, You shall love the Lord thy God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. Mark 12:30,33; Luke 2:19,35, 5:22, 9:47, 24:38; Hebrews 4:12; Proverbs 23:7 ============================================================ ======================= Mark said: “Faith is the persuasion or foundation with which we respond to God.” “It is that faith (persuasion foundation evidence)…” * You are confusing three different words, with three entirely different definitions, to mean “faith”. Persuasion is the only one of these three words that is the Biblical definition of the word “faith”. Foundation is the Biblical meaning of the word translated substance: sub-stance. Evidence simply means proof. You cannot change the definition of the word “faith” given to you by E.W. Kenyon, to incorporate the Biblical definitions of three unrelated words. The definition of the word “faith” according to “the faith message” excludes all three of these words. E.W. Kenyon believed that “faith” is belief without any reason or evidence whatsoever. He also believed, disregarding the clear Biblical meanings of the words in Hebrews 11:1, That “faith” is a Spiritual Substance, a Spiritual Substance of Power. A Spiritual Power that we are required to obtain by ourselves and for OURSELVES and build it up and use day to day, minute to minute. Trusting in OUR OWN FAITH to receive everything OUR hearts desire. But God says: By grace you have been saved, through faith; This is not your own doing: it is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast. ============================================================ ======================= Mark said: “It is by grace through faith. His unmerited favor upon us in causing us to hear the gospel. It is that faith (persuasion foundation evidence) that God uses to make the answer out of. In this case the cleansing and renewal of a persons life.” * This is a textbook definition of a “work”: “It is that “faith” that God uses to make the answer out of.” God accepts what I have done and credits my “faith” account with my positive deed/work; And only when I have enough credits, can He use what I give Him to perform what I want Him to do for me. I’m sorry, but… The God of the Bible does not use or need ANYTHING from ANYONE to do ANYTHING for ANYONE. In complete contrast to the “faith” of “the faith message”: The Biblical definition of the Greek word pistis, the Greek word that Jesus used when He taught God’s people the truth: The word that Jesus used is not even remotely related to the meaning of the word “faith” of “the faith message”. In fact, they are opposed to each other. Man’s way teaches us to have “faith”/trust in OUR OWN “faith”. The “faith” that WE PRODUCED BY OURSELVES, and built up into strong “faith” BY OURSELVES. This is the Biblical definition of “works”. God’s Word The Bible teaches us to be persuaded by what God says, to believe what God says, to trust and rely on God for everything, And not trust in ourselves or anything that we can do; which includes producing OUR OWN “faith” to present to God for Him to use for OUR benefit. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. By grace you have been saved, through faith; This is not your own doing: It is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast. We are saved by grace… Grace… is not our own doing! Grace… is the gift of God! Grace… is not a result of anything we’ve done! It is by Grace… so that no one may boast. Through faith… Faith… is not our own doing! Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us. Faith… is the gift of God! God has dealt to every man the measure of faith. Faith… is not a result of anything we’ve done! But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. Through faith… so that no one may boast. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you… according as His divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. But he that boasts, let him boast in the Lord. There have always been only two ways: God’s way, or man’s way. By Grace you have been saved, through faith! Is it man centered? I am saved by grace, through My Faith! I am saved by grace; which God only gives, because I released My Spiritual Power of Faith. It is only because I released My Spiritual Power of Faith, that God can save me by grace. Or, is it God centered? I am so persuaded by God, Who said He saved me by His Grace, that I believe I am saved by His Grace, and I trust in His gift of Grace for my salvation, and I rely on His free gift of Grace alone to save me for eternity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James said: "By faith [persuasion in God’s promise, belief in God’s promise, trust and reliance in God alone to fulfill His promise] Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8” "...Obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went." “Is this not "blind faith " ? Abraham believed God was who He revealed Himself to be, and that He would do what He promised him He would do...he didn't attempt to 'reason it out' or grasp it with his intellect...he believed and obeyed...and as promised, God delivered.” * No! This is not “blind faith” at all. In Biblical Christianity there is no such thing as “blind faith”. God says: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD. The word reason (H3198 yâkach) means: A primitive root; to be right (that is, correct); reciprocally to argue; causatively to decide, justify or convict: - argue, chasten, convince, correct (-ion), dispute, judge, plead, reason (together), rebuke, reprove. This is not an example of “blind faith”. It is, in fact, another example of the Biblical meaning of faith: persuasion! God tells us why Abram left his country, kindred, and father’s house: Abram left, because he was persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave: God told Abram to leave: “And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and you shall be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curse thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed, as the LORD had told him.” Abram was so persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave, that he believed what God had promised, and trusted in God, And relied on God alone: to lead him to the land that He promised to show him. Abram left not knowing specifically where he was going, but knowing that God promised to lead him to a specific place that He would show Abram when he got there. Gen 12:1-4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every Time You Read The Word “FAITH” In The New Testament… (Except for Heb 10:23, and the few times that it means “the Christian faith”. 1Timothy 4:1) Every Time You Read The Word “FAITH” In The New Testament It Means The Same Thing: God reasons with us through His Word The Bible, And because of His reasons, we are persuaded to believe what He says, And because we believe what He says, we trust in Him, And because we believe what He says, we rely on Him alone to fulfill the promises, that He has persuaded us to believe. (We have nothing to offer Him but filthy rags.) We all understand what true persuasion/faith is: You listen to a speech given by a man running for office. You listen to the reasons that he gives you to vote for him; and you are persuaded by those reasons to believe him. Because you believe him, you show your trust in what he promised to do by voting for him. And then, you rely on him to do what he promised to do, once he gets into office. You may even say to someone who asks you why you voted for him, “I have faith in this man; I trust him.” *** *** *** The choice is yours: Every time you read the word “faith”, you can continue to believe what one man, E.W. Kenyon, believed and taught: That “faith” is a Spiritual Substance of Power that we must acquire on our own, by which we receive everything in this life; from our own salvation, to all of the desires of our heart. Remember that you are following the teachings of a man who believed that Jesus The Messiah, The Sinless, Holy, Righteous, Son of God, The Creator and The Savior of The World, The Only Way, The Only Truth, The Only Source of Eternal Life, The Only One With The Eternal Words of God, The Word of God Incarnate: This Jesus… E.W. Kenyon, the Father and originator of “the faith message”, believed that this Jesus… “became sin”. I can only speak for myself, but, Anyone who believes that the Jesus of The Bible was a sinner cannot be a Christian! Furthermore, any doctrine, teaching or ideas coming from such a person COULD NOT be from God; but the Devil. As far as I am concerned, the fact that E.W. Kenyon believed “Jesus Died Spiritually”, excludes him from being a source of any Christian doctrine at all, which includes “the faith message”. Anything that E.W. Kenyon believed or taught is suspect; it cannot be trusted. I cannot, I will not, believe or follow anything taught or believed by E.W. Kenyon or any of the “faith” teachers who believe and follow any of Kenyon’s ideas. Teachers like Hobart Freeman, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, and all of the rest. *** *** *** I have not come here to destroy your belief in the false meaning of “faith” that was taught to you by E.W. Kenyon, through Hobart Freeman. You can believe whatever/whomever you want to believe. You have the right to follow any man that you choose to follow; and to believe whatever they tell you to believe. I have come here to show you the true Biblical meaning of the two foundational words of “the faith message”; “faith” and “sub-stance”. *** *** *** As I said before, I am looking for Christians. Christians follow Jesus; who is The Word of God; whom we know through reading and understanding The Bible. Christians will hear the Word of God, turn away from the lies of men, And follow Jesus, The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Only Way to The Father and Eternal Life. Jesus tells us in God’s Word The Bible: Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to listen to My message. And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me. If I tell the truth, then why do you not believe Me? He who belongs to God understands what God says. You do not understand because you do not belong to God. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. My Father, which gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one. *** *** *** Mark L, William, Gillyann, James, Gary, Ron, Sue, and “Jman” I pray this prayer for all of you often. Heavenly Father: please give them eyes to see, ears to hear, and hearts and minds to receive Your Word, understand Your Word, and obey Your Word. Pour out Your Mercy and Grace upon them, grant them repentance and save them in Jesus’ Name and for His Glory! I also pray this for myself, my wife, and all the Christians that I know. His servant and yours Tom You can contact me at: AsmokingFlax@live.com
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Tom, Do you believe that Smith Wigglesworth was a False teacher also, He got His teachings from Gods Word And not man ? Ok Tom, If I follow what you say the word says….Then I’m following you….right ! If I follow what the Holy Spirit teaches, then I’m wrong because I follow not your Teaching ….. TomYou said: As I said before, I am looking for Christians. Christians follow Jesus; who is The Word of God; whom we know through reading and understanding The Bible. Christians will hear the Word of God, turn away from the lies of men, And follow Jesus, The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Only Way to The Father and Eternal Life. From this statement Bro Tom it seems that you don’t count us as being Christians, cause We don’t follow Your Teachings. We do follow Christ Jesus, His Word, His Way, His Truth, His Life to the Father.
Hi Tom You said: I have come here to show you the true Biblical meaning of the two foundational words of “the faith message”; “faith” and “sub-stance”. ====================== To make any progress in my case you need to do 2 things 1) address how your faith definition relates to Believe you receive when you pray which I consider the definition of "faith." 2) Show scholarship to counter the mucho respected scholars who say hupostasis in Heb11:1 includes the definition of "substance" as was taught. ------------------------------------------------ Your "persuation" argument (along with various word definitions) is an argument removed from the Bible by "therefores" For example - Heb 11:1 says faith is "hupostasis" Hupostasis definition is defined by the original first century Greek usage - Scholars tell us the first century usage meant "substance" like as it was taught by HEF. So the Bible Itself says faith is a substance like was taught. Now you come along with "therefores" Strongs says such and such , therefore Tom deduces . . . etc. modern dictionaries says such and such therefore Tom deduces .... etc So I can believe what the Bible actually says or I can believe Tom's theory that includes a bunch of "therefores." Eventually Tom concludes that the faith teachings were wrong, Hef and others were a root of evil, and all who disagree are not His sheep. Tom, I challenge you with this - Consider if it is you who is wrong since what you are saying is patently different from the Bible in Heb 11:1 You need to do more homework on "hupostasis." ==================================== Take a do-over ( golfers call it a Mulligan) concerning what you said about not believing anything Kenyon, HEF, etc ever taught. You will agree with them on a zillion topics and disagree on only a few.
A_Smoking_Flax wrote on Wed, 12 June 2013 03:59 James said: "By faith [persuasion in God’s promise, belief in God’s promise, trust and reliance in God alone to fulfill His promise] Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8” "...Obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went." “Is this not "blind faith " ? Abraham believed God was who He revealed Himself to be, and that He would do what He promised him He would do...he didn't attempt to 'reason it out' or grasp it with his intellect...he believed and obeyed...and as promised, God delivered.” * No! This is not “blind faith” at all. In Biblical Christianity there is no such thing as “blind faith”. God says: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD. The word reason (H3198 yâkach) means: A primitive root; to be right (that is, correct); reciprocally to argue; causatively to decide, justify or convict: - argue, chasten, convince, correct (-ion), dispute, judge, plead, reason (together), rebuke, reprove. This is not an example of “blind faith”. It is, in fact, another example of the Biblical meaning of faith: persuasion! God tells us why Abram left his country, kindred, and father’s house: Abram left, because he was persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave: God told Abram to leave: “And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and you shall be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curse thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed, as the LORD had told him.” Abram was so persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave, that he believed what God had promised, and trusted in God, And relied on God alone: to lead him to the land that He promised to show him. Abram left not knowing specifically where he was going, but knowing that God promised to lead him to a specific place that He would show Abram when he got there. Gen 12:1-4 [b] Tom, I think you once told me you liked movies, so as Paul Newman (Luke) was told by the captain in 'Cool Hand Luke', "What we have here is a failure to communicate." In my reference to "blind faith" I was refering to the examples used in Hebrews 11 where they (Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah...) never received (in this life) the promises of God, yet never stopped believing, though they 'saw' them not.(they only 'saw' them through the eye of faith) "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, they were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." Heb. 11:13 So in hindsight I should have been more clear in my words...what I was attempting to say was that they totally trusted God concerning the promises He made even though they couldn't always physically 'see' them. I believe they (as do those today who believe God and take Him at His Word) do 'see' the promises...that is another example of faith; believing without physically seeing. I agree with Jman concerning labeling 'everything' taught by anyone who taught or agreed with any ideas of Kenyon's as false doctrine and that you can't accept ANY of it including what HEF taught; that's painting yourself into a corner and cheating yourself out of a LOT of Biblically sound and doctrinely correct teachings. No one can force you to receive 'the faith message'...but how about the message of the cross? HEF taught that in The Deeper Life book, a book that has several 'messages'(though they all work only by 'faith'.) How about the message of deliverance? Nonresistance? Holiness? HEF taught all these 'messages', most laid out in the Deeper Life as well as on countless tapes. Chunk it all eh? Your loss brother... btw: I'm almost certain there are those among us who daily pray for your spiritual well-being as well; I agree, EARS TO HEAR AND EYES TO SEE...AS WELL AS HUMBLE AND A TEACHABLE SPIRIT, may we all seek this in our lives. Seeking to love even as I am loved, with the love wherein He first loved us...self giving and unconditionally, Thank You, Jesus.
Tom, What do you think of this scripture? Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. The problem I see is that if someone has not taken the time to master the Greek language how could they pull out one term from Strong's and try to make a case why something taught is wrong. How can someone do a credible exegesis of a word without considering all the scriptures that pertain to faith that should be included. If what your saying is true Tom you should be able to show a number of scriptures that prove what you are thinking is correct. To be honest to take one scripture and pull out one word and start denouncing a teaching seems to be very irrational. Pulling one word from the Bible and trying to prove a point with another language can only lead one to the pathway of error in their thinking. This is how many of the cults got their start, they picked out certain words in the Bible explaining them away and came up with their own imaginary thinking of what the scriptures said, which led to deception. What I am trying to say here Tom, Is how can you take "one" tiny word and prove that the faith message is wrong? This is why your not able to answer any of the scriptures shared by others, thinking "silence" will prove your right. Gary
Maybe it is just me, but this is getting so rediculously complicated. Listen to the Holy Spirit and know that what you are believing for is in the Word and redemptive. Pray, ask, know that it is a matter of His timing, and stand until it comes to pass. I could care less about debating translations. We have the God of the universe in us to tell us all of this in our daily walk and our communion with Him. He told us to be like children, not like scribes and Pharisees. Pick apart how you hear His voice. If Bibles become scarce, we won't have time for all of this endless debate. What will you rely on then? Piles of ashes of burned Bibles, or the Living Word in your heart. Time is short and I really believe that Bibles will not be around. Plenty of Korans, but not Bibles. JMHO
Gillyann, The problem I see here is that once someone crosses over to the other side there is no longer the opportunity to get things settled. If this is true, then I would think everyone would want to examine what they believe in light of scripture. The thought came to me the teaching about, "Its never to late till its to late". When someone denies something in the Bible and tries to explain it away with one tiny word, while trying to use the Greek without considering other passages we find something is wrong in their perception. Every jot and tittle is important in the Word of God as we all know. Were told not to take away or add to the Bible. I think this is the main concern and that is to see a man head down the path of deception while he is telling other Christians they are deceived. I can agree with Tom when I see people take the faith teaching and add their opinions to what the Bible says, for instance seed faith, etc. But to say the teaching is not in the Bible means that whole passages and chapters are just totally overlooked. This view is very concerning here, I think if it is a debate it is very lopsided. Gary
Tom you seem to be picking one aspect of faith and just running with it and putting walls up around it and saying this is the beginning and end of it. I think a lot of that is a reaction to teaching from the wof (word of faith) people and Kenyon and responding to them rather than what was actually taught in the faith message. A good eg of that is our words being creative. Hef never taught that. And (just making a point here) if he did he was wrong. Our words certainly have an impact on our life but they are not creative in the same way Gods are. 1 Thess 1/3 their faith "grew" exceedingly along with their love which enabled them vs 4 to endure the trials and persecution they were going through. Rom 4 Abraham . . . vs19 not weak vs 20 was strong vs 21 fully persuaded He went from weak to strong and not fully persuaded to fully persuaded. There was a process. 1 John2/14 . . . strong and the word of God abides in you. Also you didn't mention this but unbelief is a substance too. * That is correct: I am setting the Biblical definition of the Greek word that Jesus used and meant, against the man-made, false definition of the word “faith” that E.W. Kenyon misunderstood/invented and taught to Kenneth Hagin, who taught it to Hobart Freeman, Kenneth Copeland, Et Al. That is not a proper way to argue your point as Hef himself said publicly he disagreed with Kenyon. All of us are products of those who went before us. Good and bad. Kenyon included. You are taking too much of Kenyon and the wof people and applying it to the faith message. Your comments on the mind and the heart. You are simply wrong. We are an indivisible whole. The heart is a deeper aspect of our consciousness (the mind) There is much scripture that bypasses the more shallow aspect of our consciousness (our minds) and speaks directly to the deeper part of our consciousness (the heart). A good eg is Rom 8/ 28-39 It just speaks to the heart. Also 11 Cor 6/17-18 Good christian music and worship comes out of or into that deeper aspect of us. Obviously there is an emotional component to that but it still doesn't completely describe it. Solomon had a lot to say about the issues of life and that deeper consciousness. Here is the crux of the whole issue. Your words. Man’s way teaches us to have “faith”/trust in OUR OWN “faith”. The “faith” that WE PRODUCED BY OURSELVES, and built up into strong “faith” BY OURSELVES. No one from Hef down to little me believes that.That is not the faith message in any way. Again you really don't understand the faith message or what was taught.
Hi Mark L. You reminded me: A good eg of that is our words being creative. Hef never taught that. And (just making a point here) if he did he was wrong. Our words certainly have an impact on our life but they are not creative in the same way Gods are. I agree. ----------------- I cannot recall the exact nuance of how HEF taught this. I think he said believer's words are indeed creative, but I am not sure. But the HEF "son in law" generation of teachers ( at least a few ) definitely taught that the words of our mouths were creative. I specifically remember being against this teaching, so I am sure that it was taught. Possibly, many readers of this forum still think this way. Say "My child is slow," and it becomes true. Say "I'm so fat," and you are fat. Say "I'm healed," and you are healed . (see faith reference below in this post) Say "I cannot read that," and years of faith is negated. (see faith reference below in this post) -------------------------------- Actual example of how people thought - approx. 30 years ago. The men were playing basketball. A boy fell on his own arm and snapped the two bones in the forearm. He lifted up the 'bent in he wrong place' arm and, with a shocked face, said, "I just broke my arm." A brother said, "Don't say that, or it will become true." As if if the boy never verbalized it, then the arm were not broken. The arm was already broken, and the boy's words would not change it nor cause it. ------------------------------- The idea that our words are creative is a NEW AGE way of thinking. As if your words go out into the universe and affect reality. In Christian theology it is not your words, the vibrations, nor your mental thoughts/powers that affects reality. It is a much cleaner theology to say that the actual faith of a person is what matters ( it alone moves God into action ) and not their words. Spontaneous positive/negative confessions merely reveal what faith (or lack thereof) is really present. Jman `* ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 170 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
I believe there is something to having a positive attitude in life, especially if you know the Lord. Having a negative outlook on life develops a negative attitude where there is no hope. This is interesting. When we pray we have to believe God is going to work in our behalf for our prayers to be answered. Faith is that believing. I think the teaching on creating manifestations came from the scripture, Command Ye Me concerning the works of my hands", many interpreted this to mean we could command God with faith and positive confessions, to receive an answer. The way I understand faith is that you know, that you know, that God is going to do something from you believing that He will do it and you have total rest in your heart that it is going to happen. I know many who trusted God for healing who were better Christians then me, had the right confession but they ended up dying. But this does not change the fact that healing is part of the atonement. Then on the other hand I have seen some step out in faith and find it works. For me I am trying to take scriptures in their context and seeing what did Jesus say and what did He think is important for us as believers. It takes faith to believe the Bible is the Word of God and that He means what He says. Otherwise its just hope. God has given every man the measure of faith. Faith has to grow. Its a learning process that everyone has to work out themselves before the Lord. But I agree just saying positive words so other people will hear them does not mean its just going to happen. Gary
wishing34 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2013 08:30 Possibly, many readers of this forum still think this way. Say "My child is slow," and it becomes true. Say "I'm so fat," and you are fat. Say "I'm healed," and you are healed . (see faith reference below in this post) Say "I cannot read that," and years of faith is negated. (see faith reference below in this post) -------------------------------- Actual example of how people thought - approx. 30 years ago. The men were playing basketball. A boy fell on his own arm and snapped the two bones in the forearm. He lifted up the 'bent in he wrong place' arm and, with a shocked face, said, "I just broke my arm." A brother said, "Don't say that, or it will become true." As if if the boy never verbalized it, then the arm were not broken. The arm was already broken, and the boy's words would not change it nor cause it. ------------------------------- Jman I believe we can all agree that we witnessed (whether only in others or maybe in ourselves) misapplications of what we were taught in every area, not just concerning 'faith'. We know bondage, legalism, and extreme peer presure was prevalent throughout towards the end of HEF's ministry. Hopefully we've put this behind us; or maybe this is what this interaction among us is doing, helping us re-establish our relationship with Jesus Christ and making sure our convictions are Biblical. I can say that I've certainly examined myself over the last 5 years due to the exchanges and questions raised here, and yes, I have discovered that even though I believed certain things as scriptural 30+ years ago, I can no longer cling to them today as The Lord Jesus has opened my eyes to see in the context He intended. And it wouldn't suprise me a bit if He didn't show me even more in the future that I believe today that He would have me re-adjust 'my' doctrines to align with His.
Gary, I do think that having a positive attitude is better than a negative one; I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. Driving on the right side of the road to your destination is more beneficial than driving on the left side... <ouch> I can only speak for myself here but as I think back I often had more faith in verses than I did in the author of the verses, if you know what I mean. I know the saying that you can't separate God from His Word and I agree with that in one sense but in another sense I think I did exactly that -- to some degree. Mechanically quoting a verse doesn't equate, or isn't the same thing as believing God. I can chalk it up to a lack of maturity or some other reason, but there definitely were times when my faith in a particular verse was more focused on the letter of the word than it was on the author. It seems to me that Jesus spent quite a bit of time showing the difference between the letter and the spirit of the law. Laws concerning the sabbath, laws of separation, even laws dealing with moral issues had become so ridged in people's minds that the underlying reason for those laws had been forgotten. I think sometimes we have the same tendency to focus on the letter of the word (whether we are talking about positive confession or something else) and forget where our real focus should be. Hopefully now our faith is grounded in the Author-and-finisher-of-our-faith and not merely in the letter of some verse that we can quote! Blessings, William
james wrote on Wed, 19 June 2013 20:03 I believe we can all agree that we witnessed (whether only in others or maybe in ourselves) misapplications of what we were taught in every area, not just concerning 'faith'. We know bondage, legalism, and extreme peer presure was prevalent throughout towards the end of HEF's ministry. Hopefully we've put this behind us; or maybe this is what this interaction among us is doing, helping us re-establish our relationship with Jesus Christ and making sure our convictions are Biblical. I can say that I've certainly examined myself over the last 5 years due to the exchanges and questions raised here, and yes, I have discovered that even though I believed certain things as scriptural 30+ years ago, I can no longer cling to them today as The Lord Jesus has opened my eyes to see in the context He intended. And it wouldn't suprise me a bit if He didn't show me even more in the future that I believe today that He would have me re-adjust 'my' doctrines to align with His. Amen James! 30 years down this road... we've got to have made some progress! [are we there yet?<grin>] Blessings, William
Jman wrote: Quote: The idea that our words are creative is a NEW AGE way of thinking. As if your words go out into the universe and affect reality. In Christian theology it is not your words, the vibrations, nor your mental thoughts/powers that affects reality. It is a much cleaner theology to say that the actual faith of a person is what matters ( it alone moves God into action ) and not their words. Spontaneous positive/negative confessions merely reveal what faith (or lack thereof) is really present. I hear what you are saying and I agree... however, at the expense of sounding 'new-agee', I think that we do 'create our own realities' to some extent. Now before you all say that I've gone all Shirley-Maclaine on you, let me explain. We all make thousands of choices each and every day. Each choice takes us down a particular road. The road we are on is our reality --the one we have chosen. In this sense we have created our reality... if we had made different choices our 'reality' would be different. The words we use do indeed affect our reality. That said, I do think that the idea that our words have some magical or mystical effect (like in the example you gave) is plainly false. Blessings, William
I cannot recall the exact nuance of how HEF taught this. I think he said believer's words are indeed creative, but I am not sure. But the HEF "son in law" generation of teachers ( at least a few ) definitely taught that the words of our mouths were creative. I specifically remember being against this teaching, so I am sure that it was taught. OK I stand corrected. To some degree or another it was taught. For the most part though I disagree with the teaching. I do believe our words like everything else in this world are partly spiritual and partly physical (like the the stones on the ground for eg Luke 19/40). They guide the direction of our life James 3/3-4 They are the expression of our faith Heb 10/23 In light of the emphasis on words in the bible both in teaching and example there is no reason why the vs in proverbs can't be taken in a spiritual sense as well. I don't believe they are creative though in the same way Gods are. Creatzio ex nihilo creating out of nothing Even in confessing something that doesn't exist (healing money whatever) and believing to see it come into your life is still a confession of ones faith. It is the faith in ones heart that "God" uses to make the answer out of. It is not a creation out of nothing.
Quote: William wrote; We all make thousands of choices each and every day. Each choice takes us down a particular road. The road we are on is our reality --the one we have chosen. In this sense we have created our reality... if we had made different choices our 'reality' would be different. The words we use do indeed affect our reality. Willaim I have to agree with you on this, It does sound very new Ageee. It reminds me of a book called, A Separate reality, by Casteneda
Alanbook wrote on Thu, 20 June 2013 04:50 Willaim I have to agree with you on this, It does sound very new Ageee. It reminds me of a book called, A Separate reality, by Casteneda Here is what I pulled up from the description: "Then in 1968, Carlos Castaneda returned to Mexico, to don Juan and his hallucinogenic drugs, and to a world of experience no man from our Western civilization had ever entered before..." <grin> I know that I do sometimes go down the road less traveled but I can assure you that drugs had no part in it!! Quote: ...I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I— I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. ... from a poem by Robert Frost
william wrote on Wed, 19 June 2013 21:13 I can only speak for myself here but as I think back I often had more faith in verses than I did in the author of the verses, if you know what I mean. I know the saying that you can't separate God from His Word and I agree with that in one sense but in another sense I think I did exactly that -- to some degree. Mechanically quoting a verse doesn't equate, or isn't the same thing as believing God. I can chalk it up to a lack of maturity or some other reason, but there definitely were times when my faith in a particular verse was more focused on the letter of the word than it was on the author. It seems to me that Jesus spent quite a bit of time showing the difference between the letter and the spirit of the law. Laws concerning the sabbath, laws of separation, even laws dealing with moral issues had become so ridged in people's minds that the underlying reason for those laws had been forgotten. I think sometimes we have the same tendency to focus on the letter of the word (whether we are talking about positive confession or something else) and forget where our real focus should be. Hopefully now our faith is grounded in the Author-and-finisher-of-our-faith and not merely in the letter of some verse that we can quote! Blessings, William Exactly, this is a good example of what many of us did...and it's what He is lovingly showing us. Mercy and grace, we can talk about it but to experience it is awesome...
This is in reply to Tom's original post... "These are more beliefs, taught by men, which are not found anywhere in the New Testament:" "Pleading The Blood of Jesus" "Believing God For" My first thought was, "are you serious?" Then I realized, you are. The first person I knew of to attempt to show/prove that 'pleading The Blood of Jesus' was error or false teaching was Hank Hanegraaff. And again, I'm not saying that people haven't spoken or prayed these words as a response to false teachings or not from their hearts; but, pleading The Blood of Jesus as protection/covering IS Biblical. The example should be obivious to any Christian, Exodus 12:13 . the blood of the lambs that was struck upon the door posts of the Hebrews while in Egypt (in faith and obedience, they had to believe Moses to do it) that gave them protection from the plague of death that killed all the first born. God said, "when I see the blood, I will pass over you..." It covered and protected, and we also know it wasn't the blood of the lambs themselves that had any power, it was their obedience to God. The blood of the lamb was a foreshadowing of what His plan of salvation was unto man...Jesus, the pure, spotless, sinless sacrifical Lamb who would lay down His life in death as The once and for all sin-offering on our behalf, reconciling us unto God. Believing God for? I thought your whole point about the word faith was 'believing God for'(being convienced/assured/persuaded). Tom, everything we do as Christian require 'believing God for'... I believed God for my salvation. I am believing God for my day to day needs. I will continue to believe God for my daily provisions, protection, keeping me, delivering me, and whatever else I encounter as I walk through this life. " For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." 1 John 5:4
"Pleading The Blood of Jesus" Another vs is Rev 12:11 "They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony" I've had discussions with people over the yrs on this and I always say that anyone who has experience in spiritual warfare knows the value of pleading the blood of Jesus. It was the blood of the cross that defeated the devil and it is very effective
Quote: Tom wrote: "These are more beliefs, taught by men, which are not found anywhere in the New Testament:" "Pleading The Blood of Jesus" "Believing God For" I almost commented on this as well. When taking someone through deliverance pleading the Blood of Jesus always gets a reaction from the powers of darkness. They fear/hate the Blood of Jesus and the work done at the cross. There was a number of items mentioned in Tom's list that was questionable. What about discerning things in the Spirit? 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. This explains why a man cannot see what God has revealed by the Spirit. Even the statement how he knew everything about faith like everyone here but he only was under the word six years and in the post he deleted he confessed at that time he left because of sin. Living in sin will prevent a man from receiving or understanding spiritual things. Gary
I respect the opinions of those who have been a part of OO for a few years now. Iron sharpens iron. I had to fall back on what FA taught me to survive and stay alive. The Satanic believers (Luciferians) HATE HEF and those who respect HEF teachings. All of us have had to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling since FA. I do know this: HEF makes Luciferians tremble.
*** Hello, Mark L, William, Gillyann, James, Gary, Ron, Sue, “Jman” and anyone who has been following this post but not writing. ============================================================ ================ Gary said: “The problem I see is that if someone has not taken the time to master the Greek language how could they pull out one term from Strong's and try to make a case why something taught is wrong. Pulling one word from the Bible and trying to prove a point with another language can only lead one to the pathway of error in their thinking.” * Studying the meanings of the original Greek words is not: “Pulling one word from the Bible and trying to prove a point with another language”. It is what we are commanded to do by God: Study, be diligent, labor to show yourself approved unto God, a workman, (teacher) who does not need to be ashamed, dissecting and correctly expounding the Word of Truth. The original language of the New Testament, the language that the New Testament was first written in, is Greek. The language that God selected to transmit His Good Message about Jesus to the whole world was Greek. The transcripts that Greek scholars use to produce an English translation of the New Testament are written in Greek. The common language at the time of Jesus and the apostles was Greek. See Luke 23:38 So… the “another language” that you are concerned about? In the context of the language of the New Testament the “another language” would be English. *** To translate Greek manuscripts into English, you would have to be a Greek Scholar. But… I am not translating anything. And, I am not one of those who “pull out one term from Strong's and try to make a case why something taught is wrong.” I am looking at specific Greek words, used in the Bible, to help me better understand their meanings in the context of the verses in which they are being used. Mat 13:19 Here are a few examples: The name “Jesus” is of Hebrew origin and means: Jehovah-saved. In Psalm 119:16, “forget” means: to cease to care, to mislay, forget. In John 21:15-17, there are two different words with entirely different meanings used by Jesus and Peter for “love”: agapaō and phileō. Jesus did not ask Peter the same question three times; but Jesus actually asked Peter three different questions. In Mat 7:13-14, “strait” means narrow; and “narrow” means hard, difficult. The Authorized Version of the Bible was written in 1611: How do you understand the meaning of words that have been out of use for centuries like flux, or concupiscence? Then there are important words that we would not understand the full meaning of apart from looking them up in a Lexicon. Words like propitiation, or atonement, or faith, or substance. Gary… Do you really believe that my looking up these words in a Greek Lexicon, “can only lead me to the pathway of error in my thinking”? Quite the contrary: I find that virtually every time I look up the Greek meanings of words they actually enhance my understanding of what God wants me to learn from His Word. *** Take for example the “expanded” meaning of “forget” in Psalm 119:16. I am warned that I must never “cease to care” about God’s Word The Bible: Or I could become careless and “mislay” it; and because I mislaid it I would no longer read it. And that is the reason that I forget God’s Word. In other words (Greek words) forgetting God’s Word is not a problem with my brain/memory. Forgetting God’s Word is actually a problem with the hardness of my heart, which leads me to treat God/His Word without care and ignore Him. Knowing this keeps me aware of my responsibility to keep myself in God’s Word daily. And to make sure that I am not neglecting my relationship with my Father which only comes through reading His Word The Bible. *** Using a Greek Lexicon is also one of the best defenses against false teachers and their lies. John 8:32, 2 Pet 2:1, Psalm 119:104,128 Take the word “finished” for example? The followers of E.W. Kenyon (author of the faith message) believe: While hanging on the cross Jesus said: “It is finished”… But the atonement was NOT finished! Because, Jesus still had to save us “spiritually” by becoming a sinner and dying “spiritually”: And then, suffering at the hands of Satan in hell for three days and three nights. I believe E.W. Kenyon (author of the faith message) and his followers are the kind of false teachers God warns us about in 2 Peter 2:1-2 “There shall be false teachers among you, who shall introduce by stealth their own destructive heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them… And many shall follow their ways that bring eternal loss: damnation”. I do not need to know and understand all of the scriptures that prove this doctrine to be a lie of the devil. Although, once I hear of a deception I do look into all of the verses that prove the false doctrine to be unbiblical, and therefore, a lie. All I need to do is look into the foundational word that is the basis of their idea to see if what they believe is Biblical. Is what they say the word means, the same as the definition of the Greek word which is used in The Bible? My answer to this unbiblical lie is simple; either I can believe what men like E.W. Kenyon say… or: I can choose to believe what Jesus said: It Is “Finished”! The primary reason that I know Kenyon’s doctrine is false… The fundamental reason I know it is not Biblical, is because… I know the meaning of the word that Jesus used while dying on the cross for me! And that meaning changes everything that E.W. Kenyon taught about Jesus’ substitutionary atonement! Jesus used the word: teleō. G5055 teleō ; From G5056; to end, that is, complete, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, pay, perform. G5056 the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely]) finally, uttermost. Another Greek Lexicon said: To bring to a close. To perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfill, pay. The Greek word “finished” is an accounting term that means “Paid In Full”! Full payment has been made and there is nothing left to pay! The debt is discharged to the uttermost! How has my checking the Greek definition of the word “finished” only led me to the pathway of error in my thinking”? To the contrary, it has, in fact, preserved my thinking; kept me thinking God’s thoughts (not man’s ideas) and protected me from the lies of false teachers like E.W. Kenyon (author of the faith message). It is because the followers of E.W. Kenyon’s doctrines never checked to see if he understood what Jesus meant when He said It Is “Finished”… That they have willingly opened themselves up to deception from the false teachers/men that God warns us over and over again to watch out for in His Word The Bible. And, it is because I understand what Jesus meant when He used the word “finished” that I know these “teachers” do not understand God’s Word at all. How could anyone trust anything from a “teacher” who will not even bother to make sure that the word he is building his doctrine on has the meaning that Jesus intended when He used the word? All any “teacher” has to do is look up the word in a Greek Lexicon. To not do so is either supreme laziness, or cunning deception. If I could get everyone who believes the lie that Jesus “died spiritually”, to simply look up the word “finished” in “Strong’s” or some other Greek Lexicon: They would then be able to see for themselves that Jesus’ death on the cross accomplished our salvation, it was “finished” on Calvary. And they might finally repent of their sins, and especially of the gross sin of believing such a horrific lie about Jesus: Who is The Holy One of God, our sinless substitute, our Savior. And then God may give them eyes to see that their “anointed teachers” were deceived: And they were not following the clear teaching of God’s Word The Bible. And they may stop following men and turn to Jesus and actually follow Him for the first time in their “christian” lives. *** Note that the deceiver, Satan, uses the very verse and bases his lie on the very word that proves Jesus did not “die spiritually”. Satan bases his false doctrine on the very word that irrefutably proves that the atonement was “finished” on the cross. It is obvious that Satan would have to use the very verse and base his lie on the very word that disproves JDS. He would have to… Because a Christian will try to show someone who believes JDS that the word used by Jesus in The Bible does not mean what E.W. Kenyon taught it meant. But, most of the followers of E.W. Kenyon would not understand what the Christian was telling them. Because they do not know what God’s Word The Bible says. Their beliefs are based solely upon the ideas of men and not on the clear teachings in The Word of God The Bible. They only listen to, understand, believe, and obey what men tell them. They do not listen to, understand, believe and obey God’s Word The Bible. John 10:27 *** Do you really believe that only a “Greek scholar” could look up these words in a Greek Lexicon and understand them? And that only they know how to use them correctly, but we cannot, because we have not “mastered the Greek language”? The very reason these Greek Lexicon’s were produced was to provide a valuable resource for studying God’s Word. They were designed to be used by those of us who have not “mastered the Greek language”: This tool enables us to read the Greek meanings of the words used in our English translation of the Bible. We can use these Greek definitions to expand or clarify the meanings of the English words. We can also check the meaning of words that are no longer in use. And most importantly: We have an extremely valuable resource with which we can see for ourselves: Whether or not any teacher (true or false) has simply made a mistake: Or have they deliberately twisted the meaning of a word? The only way we can do this is by checking the definition of the Greek word: Which is the source of the word which has been translated into English in our Bibles. I am sorry, but God commands us “to use speed, to make effort, be earnest: - be diligent, endeavor, labor, Study to show ourselves approved unto God”. And to “Test, discern, examine, prove, put on trial all things”. When we hear anything from a teacher or even from an apostle of God, We should “search the scriptures daily” to find out if what these men are saying is the truth: Biblically. And that should include looking up the Greek definitions of the words we are searching out and studying. One essential tool that we have to verify anyone’s doctrine and to keep ourselves free from the deception of false teachers like E.W. Kenyon (author of the faith message) is a Greek Lexicon. If we do not employ something as simple as “Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible” to see if these men are using the correct meaning of a word, Like “finished”, or “faith” or “sub-stance”: we will continue to be deceived by them and others. 2 Tim 3:13 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James said: “I agree with Jman concerning labeling 'everything' taught by anyone who taught or agreed with any ideas of Kenyon's as false doctrine and that you can't accept ANY of it including what HEF taught; that's painting yourself into a corner and cheating yourself out of a LOT of Biblically sound and doctrinely correct teachings.” * All of these manmade doctrines (made-up by the author of “the faith message” E.W. Kenyon, and faithfully believed and taught by Hobart Freeman), Are believed to be “Biblically sound and doctrinally correct teachings” by “Overcomers”: Despite the fact that there is nothing even remotely like them taught anywhere in the New Testament. “Pleading The Blood of Jesus”; “Believeing God For…”; “Anointed” teachers; Only “anointed” teachers can teach God’s Word; “The Fresh Bread from Heaven”; “The New Word of God”; “Touch not the Lord’s anointed!”; Negative/positive “confessions”; Just like God, we have the power to “speak things into being”; Christians calling themselves “The End Time Army of God”; Christians calling themselves “Overcomers”; Christians living a “Deeper Life”; “faith” is a Spiritual Substance of Power; And: God only responds to your faith. If God ONLY responds to YOUR faith; and “He never does anything out of compassion” as one “anointed” faith teacher said? Why then does God speak about, respond to, and act upon His own will, mercy and compassion so many times? PLEASE READ ALL OF THESE VERSES! THEY REVEAL THE TRUE HEART OF JESUS/GOD. Matthew 8:2-3, 9:36, 14:14, 15:32, 20:34 Mark 1:40-41, 5:19, 6:34, 8:2 Luke 5:12-13, 7:12-15, 9:11, 13:11-13, 10:33, 15:20 Romans 9:15, Hebrews 5:2, 1 Peter 3:8, Jude 1:21-22 As for “cheating myself out of a LOT of Biblically sound and doctrinally correct teachings.” That cannot happen as long as I continue to read, understand, and obey God’s Word The Bible. All of my beliefs/doctrines are based solely upon the clear teachings of God’s Word The Bible. Anything that God teaches us through His Word is easily understandable by anyone who will take the time to study and understand God’s Word The Bible for themselves. Before I was saved; before I knew anything about Jesus or God’s Word The Bible; before I became a Christian… I did what Jesus told me to do and asked for “eyes to see and ears to hear”, and I spent time just reading God’s Word The Bible. Mat 13:13-16 I was an unbeliever; a hater of God; a lost sinner on my way to an eternity in The Lake of Fire: but I understood what God said to me in His Word The Bible. And God saved me (an unregenerate, unrepentant, sin loving heathen) through reading His Word The Bible. No man ever explained anything to me before God saved me. (If they did, it had no effect on me at all, because I did not even try to understand what they said: it went in one ear and out the other. Mat 13:19) I only listened to God through His Word The Bible. God says: Salvation is far from the wicked: because they do not seek Your Statutes [Word]. Psalm 119:155 Everyone who has been truly “born again”, truly “born of God” has been born again by the Word of God The Bible. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives, and is present, and remains, and stands forever. 1 Pet 1:23 ============================================================ ================ James also said: “Bottom line...I'm saved by faith (believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what Jesus did on my behalf at Calvary in paying for my sins with His sinless, pure, Holy Blood, because He alone was/is the acceptable sacrifice…” “So I'm not sure just what your beef is with "the faith message" *If a false gospel like “the faith message” didn’t sound like “the good message” of The Bible, few Christians, if any, would follow it. I am not saying that “the faith message” does not use “biblical” words and concepts, and sound correct/Biblical. It does use “biblical” words and concepts, and it does sound correct/Biblical. I am saying that the problem is behind the “biblical” words. The problem is with the “new” unbiblical meanings of those “biblical” words, and the “new” unbiblical practices of those who believe and follow this false “good message”: “the faith message”. By “new”, I mean practices and ideas unknown to the Christian church until E.W. Kenyon introduced them in the 1890’s. It is the application, practices and “new” meanings of Biblical words and concepts of “the faith message” that prove it is not Biblical Christianity; not its use of Biblical words and concepts. The problem with the “biblical” teachings of “the faith message” can be seen in these examples of the unbiblical, manmade, doctrines of The Roman Catholic Church which are cloaked in Biblical words and concepts. If you talk to a Roman Catholic “christian” about “Jesus” they will tell you that: They believe in a triune God eternally existing in three “Persons” The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. They believe that Jesus is The Son of God/God The Son, the second Person of the trinity. They believe Jesus/God answers your prayers. They believe Jesus died for us so that we can receive the forgiveness of our sins through His sacrificial death at Calvary. All of this is true, correct, Biblical doctrine? Yes? But behind the “biblical” words they use; they have unbiblical meanings and practices. For instance; what they actually believe regarding prayer is unbiblical: Roman Catholics believe that, because Jesus is God, He is so busy running the universe that He is not available to listen to our requests for help: our prayers. Therefore, if we want to receive answers to our prayers, we must go through Mary The Mother of God, The Queen of Heaven. She will take your prayers to Jesus and get an answer for you, because Jesus has to obey His Mother. John 2:4-5 They also believe that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin. Roman Catholics believe: Mary is the mediator between God and men… They believe this because unsaved “religious” men taught them that this is The Truth. And because they believe what men told them to believe, they do not have “eyes to see” or “ears to hear” The Truth of God’s Word. And, therefore, they do not understand God’s Word. 1 Cor 2:14 And because they do not understand it, Satan can take God’s Word out of their hearts. Mat 13:19 They continue to believe only what men told them, despite the clear teaching of God’s Word to the contrary: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” 1Tim 2:5-6 Roman Catholics believe: Mary was sinless… They believe this because unsaved “religious” men taught them that this is The Truth. And because they believe what men told them to believe, they do not have “eyes to see” or “ears to hear” The Truth of God’s Word. And, therefore, they do not understand God’s Word. 1 Cor 2:14 And because they do not understand it, Satan can take God’s Word out of their hearts. Mat 13:19 They continue to believe only what men told them, despite the clear teaching of God’s Word to the contrary: ”All have sinned.” Rom 3:23 “There is none that does good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” Psalm 53:1-3 “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.” Luke 1:47 (Only sinners need a Savior.) Roman Catholics believe: Mary was a perpetual virgin… They believe this because unsaved “religious” men taught them that this is The Truth. And because they believe what men told them to believe, they do not have “eyes to see” or “ears to hear” The Truth of God’s Word. And, therefore, they do not understand God’s Word. 1 Cor 2:14 And because they do not understand it, Satan can take God’s Word out of their hearts. Mat 13:19 They continue to believe only what men told them, despite the clear teaching of God’s Word to the contrary: “While He yet talked to the people, behold, His mother and His brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto Him, Behold, Your mother and Your brethren stand without, desiring to speak with You. But He answered and said unto him that told Him, Who is My mother? and who are My brethren? And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, Behold My mother and My brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of My Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.” Mat 12:46-50 “Is not this the carpenter's son? is not His mother called Mary? and His brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? From where then did this Man get all these things?” Mat 13:55-56 “But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.” Gal 1:19 Roman Catholics believe that the sacrifice of Jesus takes away our sins. That is why The Holy Roman Catholic Church is the Only True Church, because They alone have the “priests” that sacrifice Jesus every day. If The Roman Catholic Church did not sacrifice Jesus daily, no one would have forgiveness of their sins because: “Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” Heb 9:22 Roman Catholics believe: The Holy Roman Catholic Church must offer Jesus as a sacrifice often, every year. They believe this because unsaved “religious” men taught them that this is The Truth. And because they believe what men told them to believe, they do not have “eyes to see” or “ears to hear” The Truth of God’s Word. And, therefore, they do not understand God’s Word. 1 Cor 2:14 And because they do not understand it, Satan can take God’s Word out of their hearts. Mat 13:19 They continue to believe only what men told them, despite the clear teaching of God’s Word to the contrary: “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands [your earthly “churches”], which are the figures of the true; but [Jesus is entered] into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others; for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: in the same way Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Heb 9:24-28 When you explain, to a Roman Catholic “christian”, the clear verses from God’s Word The Bible that contradict the manmade doctrines they were taught to believe… What is the reaction to the Biblical truths that you simply showed them from The Bible? They might say something like: “You don’t understand about prayer: Mary was sinless. Mary is The Mother of God, and only She can approach Jesus and ask Him to answer your prayers!” “Yes, I agree with the Bible. Everyone is a sinner! But you don’t understand these verses; Mary had to be sinless in order for Jesus to be sinless. I agree with the Bible, everyone is a sinner! Everyone!… Except for Mary! Mary was sinless!” “You don’t understand the “atonement”! The Bible tells us that it is only through the shed blood of Jesus that we have the forgiveness of our sins! We know that unless The Holy Roman Catholic Church sheds the blood of Jesus daily, through “The Sacrifice of The Mass”: No one would have forgiveness of their sins! No one could go to heaven! Everyone would go to hell for eternity!” The evidence that someone is an unsaved “religious” person is their “natural” tendency to reject the clear teaching of God’s Word The Bible and only believe the teachings of unsaved, “religious”, natural men. “The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know or understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” ============================================================ =================== James also said: “but the faith message I have received is obviously different than what you've received.” * James, You did not question my understanding of the “faith” of “the faith message” when you read it back in January. In fact, you responded to it seven days after it was posted. Just to remind you; my post on faith ends with these words: “This is the meaning of the word "faith" as I was taught it. I tried to be fairly thorough. Is this acceptable?” And at that time you said: “Tom, we're keeping an eye on what's being discussed”; you acknowledged that you had read my post but: At that time, you did not think: The faith message that you had received, was “obviously different” than the faith message that I had received. If what several of you are now insisting is true: that I “never understood the faith message”, And “I must have received a different “faith message” than you received”. Why then didn’t you correct me when I explained/defined the “faith”, of “the faith message” back in January 29, 2013. (See Re: There’s Power in the Blood [message #9310 is a reply to message #9305 ] Tue, 29 January 2013 20:42) If I did not “understand” “faith” and how it works according to “the faith message”; why didn’t even one of you explain to me where I was wrong? You have had more than four months to do so? I believe the reason you did not correct me at that time is because: You knew that I understood “the faith message” (The same “faith message” taught to both you and me by Hobart E. Freeman) When I wrote the definitions of faith and grace back in January. You know that I understand “the faith message” (The same “faith message” taught to both you and me by Hobart E. Freeman); Otherwise you would have shown me where I was wrong four months ago. To try to defend the false gospel of “the faith message”; By asserting, at this late date, that I “do not understand the faith message” is nonsense, and it is very disingenuous. Finding fault with the messenger is an easy way to “defend” your beliefs. Although, it is not really defending your beliefs is it? It is actually just a defense mechanism, a rescuing device. I think that we should only focus on our Biblical reasons for believing or disbelieving anything that we have been taught. Finding fault with the messenger should be beneath any intelligent person’s conduct when defending their beliefs. ============================================================ ================= James also said: "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8 "...Obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Is this not "blind faith " ? Abraham believed God was who He revealed Himself to be, and that He would do what He promised him He would do...he didn't attempt to 'reason it out' or grasp it with his intellect...he believed and obeyed...and as promised, God delivered. In my reference to "blind faith" I was refering to the examples used in Hebrews 11 where they (Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah...) never received (in this life) the promises of God, yet never stopped believing, though they 'saw' them not. So in hindsight I should have been more clear in my words...what I was attempting to say was that they totally trusted God concerning the promises He made even though they couldn't always physically 'see' them.” * You couldn’t have been “more clear in your words” that you were referring exclusively to Abraham; and to him alone, when you referenced Heb 11:8 which is a verse that only refers to Abraham. You said: “he went out, not knowing whither he went. ”Is this not "blind faith " ?” And: “he didn't attempt to 'reason it out' or grasp it with his intellect”. We were taught that Heb 11:8 teaches “true faith” is “blind faith”. But, when you found out (by reading The Bible) that it actually teaches Biblical persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God alone: Instead of admitting that what we were taught was not based on the Biblical account in Genesis, or the Biblical meaning of faith: You are now trying to back away from the example that you selected to prove that “true faith” is “blind faith”, because now that you have read God’s Word for yourself (Gen 12:1-4) you can see that: When you go back to Genesis to get the full story that this verse (Heb 11:8) is referring to, you find that it actually proves what I have been saying all along about the true Biblical meaning of Biblical faith which is: In Biblical Christianity there is no such thing as “blind faith”. Because Biblical faith is based upon reason. God says: Come now, and let us reason together. The word reason (H3198 yâkach) means: A primitive root; to be right (that is, correct); reciprocally to argue; causatively to decide, justify or convict: - argue, chasten, convince, correct (-ion), dispute, judge, plead, reason (together), rebuke, reprove. This is not an example of “blind faith” at all. It is, in fact, another example of the Biblical meaning of faith: persuasion! God tells us why Abram left his country, kindred, and father’s house: Abram left, because he was persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave: God told Abram to leave: “And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and you shall be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curse thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed, as the LORD had told him.” Abram was so persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave, that he believed what God had promised, and trusted in God, And relied on God alone: to lead him to the land that He promised to show him. Abram left not knowing the specific destination of the place he was going to; but knowing that God promised to lead him to a specific place that He would show Abram when he got there. Gen 12:1-4 James… You gave me an example that you thought proved “true faith” is “blind faith”. This example was based only on the reference to the story of God and Abram in the epistle to the Hebrews and the “teachings” about “faith” by E.W. Kenyon (the Father of “the faith message”). But when I showed you the actual account of this story from the book of Genesis, you found that; Abram listened to God who gave Abram definite reasons to leave (Gen 12:2-3), and the reasons that God gave Abram to leave persuaded Abram to believe God, and to trust in God and to rely on God alone to fulfill the promises that God had made to him. And instead of admitting that this is not “blind faith”; and seeing that, according to the clear teaching of The Bible, there is no logical, reasonable way to believe this is an example of the false idea of “blind faith”: Because the Bible is crystal clear concerning the exact reasons God gave Abram, which persuaded him to leave: And this is, in fact, another Biblical example of true Biblical persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God alone, from the father of true Biblical faith; Abraham. Instead of admitting this is not “blind faith”; you “pretend” that you made a “mistake”. And you hoped to persuade me that what you clearly meant was not what you meant at all. This is disingenuous, dishonest and deceitful. How can I continue to try to have an honest exchange of ideas with you, when, instead of admitting you were wrong: You try to convince me that you meant something entirely different that what you clearly stated, and obviously meant? You are forgetting that I also heard and believed this “teaching” which wants us to believe that “true faith” is “blind faith”. You insult my intelligence when you expect me to believe that you did not mean [b]what you obviously did mean when you said: ” ‘[Abraham]...Obeyed, and he [Abraham] went out, not knowing whither he [Abraham] went.’ Is this not ‘blind faith’?” You truly believed what we were taught to believe which is that Heb 11:8 is a perfect example of “blind faith”. But once you heard what God said, you understood that what E.W. Kenyon/Hobart Freeman taught was not true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was once like some of you are now: I believed and followed “the faith message”, as taught by Hobart Freeman; with all of my heart, soul, and strength for six years. I believed that “the faith message” was the “Absolute Truth” of God. And that “Absolute Truth” of God reveals: ”The Faith Message” is: The Way God wants us to live our lives day to day. Rom 14:23 The Truth of God shown to only a very few special people who call themselves “Overcomers”. Luke 18:11-12 The Life having enough of our own “Faith” is the only way that we can have eternal life. Gal 3:11 No One Comes To The Father Except By “Faith”. Heb 11:6 (Remember E.W. Kenyon (author of JDS) believed that “faith” is a Spiritual Power, this is only the word of a deceiver; it is not God’s Word. God’s Word tells us that Biblical faith/pistis is: persuasion in God’s Word, belief in God’s Word, trust in God and reliance on God alone to fulfill His promises.) Even though I followed E.W. Kenyon/Hobart Freeman for six years: And I exchanged my personal relationship with Jesus for “The Deeper Life in the Spirit” through “the faith message”: And walking by faith not feelings; I lived ignoring the feelings of condemnation, abandonment and judgment by God: And I pressed on by “faith” until those feelings and condemnations faded and left: And even though I was no longer faithful to God; God was still faithful to me. AND, God brought me out of “the faith message” as I returned to my first love: Jesus/God’s Word. *** And, I am no longer persuaded by the things that men say. And, I no longer believe in the doctrines of men. And, I no longer trust in men. And, I no longer rely on men. Now, I am only persuaded by God’s Word The Bible. Now, I only believe what God says in His Word The Bible. Now, I trust only in The God of The Bible for everything that pertains to life and godliness. Now, I rely on my heavenly Father alone, to provide for my every need: body, soul and spirit; from this day forward, and on into an eternity with Him as my LORD and my God. *** Jesus said: If you continue in My word, then are you My disciples indeed; And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; If they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also. Set Free by Jesus: The Word of God. His servant and yours Tom You can E-Mail me at: asmokingflax@live.com
Quote: Tom wrote:Gary… Do you really believe that my looking up these words in a Greek Lexicon, “can only lead me to the pathway of error in my thinking”? Tom Looks like you were busy writing last night. Well I believe it happens all the time and that is people take the Greek and Hebrew and try to prove something in the Bible that is not there. In fact I took a course in a Bible college by a leading Greek scholar on the book of James. This man lived in Greece while growing up spoke the language and had studied it for years. He even has his own Bible translation. I am telling you this so you can know this man knows the Greek inside and out. I was very excited about this class. When the man got to the part about divine healing it was this scripture: James 5:14-15 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. This Greek scholar said; this verse meant that the young men in the church should call on the Pastor and that he should go and give the young men in the church a "massage". I still have the book and the reference to this passage, the man did not believe in divine healing so he made the Greek fit his interpretation of the scripture. In answer to your question yes it is possible to take a verse with tons of research and try to make it say what you want. Many cults have done this trying to make the Bible fit their ideology of scriptures. It sounds like you had some bad experience with using faith and it did not work for you, so your trying to disprove certain Bible verses. Like William said, its easy to have faith in the letter rather then having faith in the Author. (my paraphrase of what he shared). Gary
Hi Tom, I have responded to your request to discuss “faith” and “substance” in my posts in this thread. You have not responded to my points. Please review my posts and respond to the points I made. I am not requesting a repeat of your overall theory, opinions about Kenyon, lessons on other theology topics, or responses to other people's posts. Please be focused and concise. Jman ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 172 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
Tom, In my life I have been all the things you say, disingenuous, dishonest, and deceitful (along with most every other sin)...If I was purposely doing this, as you say, then I am deceiving myself because I believe in my heart that my motives in my response was godly and honest. But it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong; I know this, any rightousness that can be found in me is only there through Jesus Christ. So please don't judge everyone else my what you perceive in me as unchristian behavior. Pray for me and don't take offense, I really didn't try to insult your intelligence. I really try to believe the best about people, especially those who say they believe in Christ and are followers of Him; and I have thought many times that if we (those who have come and gone and those who have remained on this forum) were seated together in an assembly face to face, we would have far fewer misunderstandings of what each is trying to convey using this medium (the computer). More than a few times through the years I've stated that I'm not a debator nor do I like to argue, I don't have the memory of what was taught near as well as some(William, for example), nor do I have any tapes or notes; the only thing I have is 'The Deeper Life' book and the 'Faith' book from HEF and my time under his ministry. I didn't attend FA. This isn't said to you to distance myself from anything or make excuse...it just is the way it is. I'm grateful for what I was taught that led me into a closer relationship with God and better understanding of Him and His Word. I will take your words to heart and pray and seek The Lord about how I conduct myself. I'm not sure just how humble I really am before The Lord, but I seek to be...and I know without humility one can not be receptive to teaching and instruction, from God or man.
Hi sue... I said I would answer your questions, so here I go... You said: Just wondering who this anointed faith teacher was. It would be hard for me to believe a true teacher wouldn’t be able to have faith that God created the world just because of what a person from a Creation Seminar said. * You probably wouldn’t know him he was the second in command at our “faith assembly”. Just wondering what city this group was in and who was first in command. You really didn't answer the question. If you don't want to name him publically then send me a Private Message or email. If you think about the teaching on Heb 11:8, where we were taught that true “faith” is “blind faith”. “Blind faith” requires NO EVIDENCE AT ALL; because Romans 8:24 and Hebrews 11:1 "teach" that we must have our own “faith” “to stand in the gap” until we receive the “manifestation” of what we are “believing God for”. None of this is Biblical but Hobart Freeman, who received it from E.W. Kenyon, still believed it. ============================================================ ========================= You said: Who are these Word of Faith teachers? I don’t want to assume you mean teachers from Faith Assembly or the other meetings. Or do you mean some of the teachers on TV who promote a seed faith, give to get message? * All of “the faith teachers”, everyone of them, received the same “faith message” from the same “teacher”:Again I would ask, who are these faith teachers? I believe if you want to make accusations of what someone says, you should be able and willing to name names. Hobart Freeman got it from Kenneth Hagin; Kenneth Hagin plagiarized/stole it, sometimes word for word, from E.W. Kenyon; Who got it from a “Spiritual” college he attended in Boston, where he learned “spiritual” ideas from Mary Baker Eddy’s “christian science” and other non-Christian and occult “spiritual” teachers and teachings at that college. I realize that Hobart Freeman tried to distance himself from the other “faith teachers” especially on JDS. But all of the teachings/beliefs/practices/ideas of “The Faith Message” come from one source, one man only: E.W. Kenyon; he and he alone is The Father, Author, and Originator of “The Faith Message/Word of Faith/Faith Teachings/Faith Teachers” etc. A person can get himself in trouble when they try to put everything in one category. For example saying "all of the teachings/beliefs/practices/ideas of the Faith Message come from one source, one man only." I am certain you believe this, but I don't. I am not come to defend Brother Freeman, but I do believe he taught the word of the Lord, which I will be eternally grateful for. Anything that has to do with the idea of “Faith being a Spiritual Substance, a Spiritual Substance of Power” and all that it entails, comes from E.W. Kenyon. ============================================================ ========================= I hope this answers your questions. Again I am sorry that I was so late in giving you my answers. I noticed that you haven’t participated in any of the posts I have submitted to date. My hope is that you are thinking about what God’s Word The Bible says relating to “faith”; Instead of what we were taught to think about it. His Servant and yours Tom
Tom said: Even though I followed E.W. Kenyon/Hobart Freeman for six years:Right here is the reason you have departed from the teaching of faith: you followed men, not God. There were some of us who did as the Bereans and saw in God's word what was taught, and learned to apply it in everyday life. And I exchanged my personal relationship with Jesus for “The Deeper Life in the Spirit” through “the faith message”:In another post, which you deleted, you said you were taught sinless perfection(which Hobart Freeman NEVER taught)and left a church because you didn't measure up to the others. This was a deception you believed, because God puts people in the church so they can be taught and changed. And walking by faith not feelings; I lived ignoring the feelings of condemnation, abandonment and judgment by God: And I pressed on by “faith” until those feelings and condemnations faded and left: And even though I was no longer faithful to God; God was still faithful to me AND, God brought me out of “the faith message” as I returned to my first love: Jesus/God’s Word. *** And, I am no longer persuaded by the things that men say. And, I no longer believe in the doctrines of men. And, I no longer trust in men. And, I no longer rely on men. Now, I am only persuaded by God’s Word The Bible. Now, I only believe what God says in His Word The Bible. Now, I trust only in The God of The Bible for everything that pertains to life and godliness. Now, I rely on my heavenly Father alone, to provide for my every need: body, soul and spirit; from this day forward, and on into an eternity with Him as my LORD and my God. Just wondering what you think of being a part of a church. God does tell us in Ephesians 4:11-15 God has given us pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets and apostles. Tom said: Mark L, William, Gillyann, James, Gary, Ron, Sue, and “Jman” I pray this prayer for all of you often. Heavenly Father: please give them eyes to see, ears to hear, and hearts and minds to receive Your Word, understand Your Word, and obey Your Word. Pour out Your Mercy and Grace upon them, grant them repentance and save them in Jesus’ Name and for His Glory. What exactly do you mean "and save them?" Are you saying because we believe in faith that we aren't saved? I am saved, so don't need to pray to be saved. And if you are implying that because I believe that Brother Freeman taught the word of God, that I need to repent and have my eyes and ears open, and believe what you have shared, I do not receive that. I know in whom I have believed and have faith that HE is able to keep me.
Saying that people are not saved because one does not agree with a "philosophy" somebody is projecting is reminiscent of times past. Deeper Life In the Spirit is where it's at right now. Walky talky; talky walky. I loved George Reusser!
Romans 10:16-18 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The Bible clearly has a lot to say about "faith". This is telling us they have not obeyed the gospel. Why? They did not believe the Lord's report. I think somethings are spiritually discerned by revelation through the Holy Spirit. There is more to God then the letter of the word. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. This is telling us that faith is what we are hoping for, so in a sense its a substance that stands in its place till the manifestation comes. I hope that sounds right. Gary
Sue... Here is the long version for you and the others to use. Luke 11:53-54 *** What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? *** Trust in the LORD with all your heart, will, mind; and do not lean on your own understanding. A dead calm is our enemy; a storm may prove our helper. Controversy may arouse thought, and though thought may come the Divine change. Charles Spurgeon *** It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes [great men]. There have always been only two choices for mankind: TRUST IN GOD AND FOLLOW HIM! OR, TRUST IN MEN AND FOLLOW THEM! Ever since I became a Christian, in 1980, men have been trying to convince me to trust, them instead of trusting God’s Word. It has been my experience that the time has now come when: “christians” no longer put up with true, sound Biblical teaching; instead, they stand against it, they ardently resist it. “christians” no longer look for those who simply teach God’s Word; instead, they look for men who will please them by telling them only what they want to hear. ”christians” refuse to listen to, believe, or obey the truth of God’s Word; they do, however, listen to, believe, and obey man’s philosophies, man’s myths, man’s fables, man’s understanding, man’s evolutionary “science”; whatever is not true according to God’s Word. I use the word “christians” to denote unsaved religious people who believe themselves to be Christians; But who are not true Christians; they are, in fact, false converts. They are “christian” in name only; they have no fruit. Matthew 7:16-20, 12:33 They have never been born again by the Word of God. Psalm 119:155, 1Peter 1:23 They do not follow Jesus. John 10:3-5 They do not listen to, understand, or obey God’s Word. John 8:43-45,47 They are not, nor have they ever been, genuine Christians; They never had a real relationship with Jesus. They are only “religious” people, doing “christian” “works”. Matthew 7:21-27, Luke 13:24-28 I realize that Hobart Freeman believed that some of these verses prove that Christians can lose their salvation. But I have come to understand, from God’s Word, that many of these verses—Matthew 7:21-27, and Luke 13:24-28 in particular—actually illustrate an infinitely more terrifying condition: being a false convert. (For more on false converts and the eternal security of the believer, see note #1 below.) In my testimony, How I Met The God of The Bible, I explained that: It was simply by reading The Bible that God revealed Himself to me. There were no men/persons involved in my salvation. It was only through God’s Word The Bible that… God spoke directly to me. God convicted me of my sins. God convicted me of my absolute corruption, wickedness, perversity, depravity, evil. God showed me that Jesus is The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Only Way to God. God showed me that Jesus is God’s only Son, The Messiah, The Savior of the world. God convinced me of my absolute need of Jesus alone for the forgiveness of my sins. God saved me by His grace. God persuaded me, through His Word, to believe what He said, to trust in Him, and rely on Him alone to bring it to pass. *** Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. Our friend “Jman” incisively and correctly points out: “No faith stands…until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.” I wish that, after I had left, someone would have helped me to see what was wrong: to show me what was wrong Biblically. I have often wished that someone who had left the “church” would have explained what was wrong, by showing me from unambiguous verses in The Bible, with clear Biblical thinking and cogent Biblical understanding. I am one of Jesus’ sheep; I would have heard His voice through His Word and followed Him. He that is of God: hears, listens to, understands, and obeys God's Words. God tells us why “religious” people will not hear, listen to, understand, and obey God's Words: It is because they are not of God. “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear, listen to, understand, and obey My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” God’s sheep cannot follow false teachers; they may try to, but, after a time they will stop listening to them and leave. “And a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” “All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not listen to them.” Everyone I have known, or heard of, who has left the “church”, left based on their own ideas, their own feelings, their own desires, their own natural understanding, or some “anointed” teacher’s ideas, that they received from the man they are now following as a replacement for Hobart Freeman (or they are now following some new “Prophet”, “Movement”, “Church”, “Apostle”, “Teaching”). The person who brought me into “The Faith Message/Word of Faith” left our “church” years before I did, but, he didn’t tell me why he left. He moved out of state and did not contact me at all. He did, however, talk to my mother, and tell her “what was wrong” with what we believed. He explained to her that I needed to find out for myself; and that he felt he couldn’t help me. Sounds right; sounds mature; sounds spiritual; there’s just one problem: it’s not Biblical. Christians are required to; it is our responsibility to: Proclaim God’s Word/Doctrines/Teachings: Be urgent; earnest; persistent; whether or not the time is right: Convict them, convince them, tell them what is wrong, blaming them for following what is wrong: Find fault with and condemn as wrong what they are following; reprimand them: Scold, reprove, utter words in anger, condemn that which is wrong, rebuke, blame them for their faults. We must also encourage them with all patience and instruction. And again: Brethren, if any Christian wanders away from the truth, and one brings him back, turns him back to the truth; let him know, that he which brings back the sinner from straying, from delusion, from error, shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. *** This brings me to the reason that I left “faith assembly/the church”. Although I knew people who left the “church” because they disagreed with something that Hobart Freeman taught: I never disagreed with anything Hobart Freeman taught. A person I used to know very well, wanted to borrow money to build a house. He said he and his wife (also an “Overcomer”) didn’t “feel comfortable” being in a “church” that didn’t allow members to borrow money; so, they left, borrowed the money, and built their house. Another person I also used to know very well, wanted to marry someone in the assembly who was divorced; so, they both left, and were married. And, after Hobart Freeman gave his “teaching” on hunting, many people strongly disagreed with it; but I was not one of them. Steve Hill admonished us about what Hobart Freeman’s “teachings” were: “Are they The Word of God; The Fresh Bread from heaven; or, just the words of a man?” I agreed 100% with Steve: when Hobart Freeman spoke he was not speaking just as a man, he spoke as a true “Prophet of God”. He was speaking the words of God directly to us, words that we needed to hear in order for us to walk deeper with God, and to carry out God’s perfect will. I believed Hobart Freeman was God’s “anointed” teacher for the world at this time. Other “teachers” may have had some things correct; but, only Hobart Freeman had everything correct! He was the man/Prophet that God had chosen to prepare His “End Time Army” to do the “Greater Works” promised by Jesus. Those following “The Faith Message/Word of Faith” understand that God has called specially “anointed” teachers to impart the “Fresh Word” of God to us. These new “Teachings” (The Fresh Word of God) are God’s Word specifically designed for us at this time. Shortly after I left, I was talking with several people who had also left the “church” (but not “The Faith Message”). I made a statement that I thought was very conservative: “I am only going to believe what is clearly taught in The Bible.” One “Overcomer” responded to this statement with a concerned admonition: “I’m not going to give up what I believe, just because it’s not in the bible!” I was amazed to see that no one disagreed with this statement—apart from me and my wife. I tried to explain to another “Overcomer” who also had left the “church” (but not “The Faith Message”), that what he believed about Eve’s temptation and fall into sin was not Biblical. What he believed made God directly responsible for Eve falling into sin! In other words: God brought sin into the world through His own negligence! But God said: “No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able to bear; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to endure it.” God always provides a way for us to conquer every temptation to sin, each and every time that we are tempted. When I tried to explain that what he believes cannot be true because it violates the clear teaching of God’s Word: He told me, referring to The Bible, “I don’t care what it says; I know what I believe is true!” Pointing to The Bible he told me derisively: “My god is bigger than ‘that book’!” But, God says: The reason we roam from truth: - go astray, believe error, wander, go out of the way; comes from not knowing/understanding His Word, nor His power/attributes. Matthew 22:29 The time will come when they will no longer believe God’s Word; and they shall turn away from listening to the truth of God’s Word, and shall believe fables, myths, lies of men. 2Timothy 4:3-4 After I left the “church”, an “Overcomer” who was very close to me personally, cut me off completely. Whenever I would see him, I could tell that he was obviously afraid of me. I believe he thought that I was one of those, who, in the last days, shall depart from “The Faith Message”. I rarely saw him; however, when I did, I would try to talk to him about what God was showing me from His Word. But each time I tried to share God’s Word with him he was nervous and antagonistic toward me. For example: since he was often fearful and anxious about losing his salvation; I tried to show him the clear promises of Jesus that we have eternal life and cannot lose it: I was trying to help him see that God, our Father, can be counted on to keep us saved for eternity, and that He helps us to be faithful to Him; to which he countered: “You must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;” I then asked him to read the second half of that verse which says: “Because it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” But, instead of reading it with me; his angry response was “WHY!? BECAUSE YOU SAY SO!” All I was hoping to do was to help him see that God’s Word says we can trust Him to help us, and to keep us saved. I am sure that all “Overcomers” know the first half of this verse by heart; but, I have never met one “Overcomer” who even knew that there was a second half to this verse; much less, that in the second half of this verse God promises: He will always be at work in us; and that it is He who makes us willing and able to obey His own purpose, His will. In other words: It is God who empowers us to be able to: work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the only way I have been able to “work out my own salvation” for these last 33 years is: Because God is always working in me; making me willing and able to obey Him. Philippians 2:12-13, Hebrews 13:20-21, Jude 1:24, 2Timothy 1:12, Proverbs 21:1 I simply wanted to encourage him, by showing him from The Bible that; God’s grace can be relied upon to keep us saved and to empower us to obey Him! For those of us who are following Jesus, and believe God’s Word, this is good news; not something to be angry about or afraid of. *** I know that many people left because of problems they had with other “Overcomers” but, I didn’t leave the “church” because of problems with “Overcomers”. I knew many “Overcomers” who were more worldly, carnal, mean-spirited, and hard hearted than any of the unsaved “Philistines” or denominational “christians” that I worked with. One “Overcomer” (I worked with him fifty hours a week for five years) went out of his way, almost daily, to belittle me, criticize me, ridicule me, and treat me with utter contempt and animosity. After putting up with his abuse for five years; I finally confronted him about it after he launched into the most irate and vociferous tirade against me to date; a rant so loud that everyone in the building heard every hateful, angry word he screamed at me. That evening, after work, I told him, as a professed “Deeper Life christian” he was giving a bad witness to all of the people we worked with. He was showing them, daily, that being a “christian” made no difference at all in a person’s life. (One unsaved person, who worked with us, told me that this “christian brother” had lied to our boss right in front of this unsaved person who knew the truth and watched as this “Deeper Life christian” lied without any compunction whatsoever. Needless to say, he told everyone in the shop about the hypocrisy of this “Overcomer”.) In response to my confronting him, this “christian brother” admitted that he had been treating me with contempt and resentment; but, he never asked for forgiveness; he never even said he was sorry for anything he had said or done to me: he simply admitted that it was true; he had done these things to me. The only explanation he gave for persecuting me was, it bothered him that “being a spiritual person seemed to come so easily” to me. In other words, he didn’t like the fact that I was consistently behaving like a Christian on a daily basis; something he could only manage to do for two hours at “church”. In fact, the only time I ever saw him “act christian” was during “body ministry” where, in each and every meeting, without fail, he would “prophesy” of the “deep things” of God, and admonish us to walk the walk, not just talk the talk, etc.! Another “Overcomer” I knew, and worked with, revealed that he had the same hard heart as the Pharisees/hypocrites concerning the lost; and not the love, mercy and compassion for the lost that Jesus has. Luke 19:10, 15:4-7,10,20, Mat 9:13,36, 14:14, 23:23 The whole “church” had watched a “christian” movie which exposed the strange practices of the New Age movement. At one point the movie showed New Age practitioners chanting: Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! as they were preparing for “Spirit Guides” to enter their bodies and give them “Enlightenment”. Luke 11:35, 2Cor 11:14 The next day he was ridiculing these deceived, lost people, and laughing at them with contempt, as he repeated their chant in a mocking tone, “Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!” I asked him why he was laughing at them. He told me, still laughing, “Because, it’s funny! I think it’s funny!” Saddened by the fact that he found the lost condition of these deceived people so entertaining, I told him: ”If it was you chanting: ‘Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!’ I would not be laughing.” These were lost men and women, deceived by Satan, who were on their way to an eternity in the lake of fire; How is that funny? After I said this to him he never spoke to me again. God points out that Pharisees/hypocrites have no concern for the lost; yet, they see themselves as doing God’s will better than anyone else: God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican [or these deceived New-Agers; or those denominational “christians”; etc.]. Luke 18:10-14, Matthew 9:10-13 Even though I did have problems with “Overcomers”; The reason I left had nothing to do with other people whatsoever. *** The reason I left was me, not anyone or anything else! I was the reason I had to leave! Hobart Freeman believed in and “taught” sinless perfection: “We are Saints; not aints.” “It says if we sin… not when we sin.” i.e., “Overcomers” should be sinless, and I was not living a perfect, sinless life. At one point, people in the assembly were openly repenting of sin during the meeting. James 5:16 As one brother, who was uncomfortable with all the open confessions of sin, put it: “What if unsaved people come in here? They will think we aren’t perfect.” I was missing it, and I believed that God would judge our “assembly” if I didn’t leave and get myself straightened out. I didn’t want to hold back my “overcoming” brothers and sisters because of my imperfections/sins. Joshua 7:12-13 What drove me to leave the “church” wasn’t a concern about other people’s lack of perfection: I was deeply concerned about my own imperfections, my own sin! I was afraid of the effect my sin would have on our assembly being used of God for the “Greater Works” ministry He was preparing them for. I was very sorry to have to go, but, I knew it was for the benefit of all my brothers and sisters who really were living a perfect, sinless, “overcoming”, deeper life in the Spirit. I left because I knew that I wasn’t a very good “Overcomer”. (see note #2) *** God requires, that as His followers, we must: Study [make an effort, be diligent] to show ourselves approved unto God, so we can be a workman that doesn’t need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I am asking you to please do this with me. *** Grace and faith are the two most important words in the entire Bible! Because: “By grace you have been saved, through faith; This is not your own doing: it is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast.” We are saved by Grace… Grace… is not our own doing! Grace… is the gift of God! Grace… is not a result of anything we’ve done! It is by Grace… so that no one may boast. Through faith… Faith… is not our own doing! Titus 3:4-5 Faith… is the gift of God! Romans 12:3 Faith… is not a result of anything we’ve done! 1Cor 15:10, Ephesians 2:10 Through faith… so that no one may boast. 2Peter 1:2-3, 1Peter 1:2-5, Galatians 6:14, 2Cor 10:17 You would think that every Christian would know the meaning of these two words: Since correctly understanding and believing them are the foundation of our salvation. But this has not been my experience. I have asked numerous “christians” for the definitions of grace and faith, and without fail these are the responses I have gotten: Grace is the undeserved favor of God. And, quoting Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” I have found that “christians” and even many true Christians also believe: Faith is unquestioning belief; belief without any reason or evidence whatsoever: what some call “blind faith”. AND… Although most “christians”, and even some true Christians, believe there is some kind of mysterious aspect to “faith”; It is only “charismatics” following “The Faith Message/Word of Faith” who believe that faith is an actual, tangible, spiritual substance; a real spiritual power which is released by us through the act of “believing”: a power that we are required to obtain for ourselves; to store it up; to strengthen it; so that we will become “strong in faith”. This is the same spiritual power that God used to make the universe: “Through [the spiritual substance of] faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God”. Or, We understand that it was through the spiritual substance of faith that God made everything by speaking the Word of Faith. Not only is it up to us to acquire this spiritual power, but, we must also be able to use it. The most important part of having “faith” is increasing our prowess/ability to use this power in our daily lives. (James 2:17-18,20,22; “The just shall live [day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute] by faith”. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. When Jesus comes He will be looking for those who have (and use) this spiritual prowess). We must have enough faith to enable God to do what we desire/need, i.e., receive the desires of our heart, prosper us, heal us, save us, save our families, etc. Because, if we do not have enough of our own strong faith for God to use: God can do nothing for us. Matthew 13:58, Mark 6:5-6 *** Satan understands that there is no way he can change the definition of the word grace. Everyone understands that the primary meaning of the word grace is undeserved favor (of God). I believe God won’t allow the meaning to be changed because that is how He saves us… By Grace! But Satan knows… The definition of the word faith can be made to seem more mysterious, ethereal, and mystical. The definition of the word faith has been radically altered over time. In fact, it has come to mean the exact opposite of its original Biblical definition. This can be clearly seen in these dictionary definitions starting with the more recent dictionaries and going back in time. 1986: faith, belief without proof; belief without need of certain proof 1962, 1965: faith, a believing without proof College edition 1953, 1958: faith, unquestioning belief; unquestioning belief in God, religion, etc. If you go back far enough, the original definition of the word faith can be clearly seen, even in a common dictionary: And that definition changes everything! Faith is not belief without proof; or unquestioning belief in God, religion, etc. Faith is belief based on reason and evidence. WEBSTER’S TWENTIETH-CENTURY DICTIONARY UNABRIDGED 1904-1936 Faith [faith, belief, trust, from fidere, to trust, confide in.] The assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity. Assent of the mind to a statement or proposition of another, on the ground of the manifest truth of such statement or proposition; Firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of any kind; as, I have a strong faith, or no faith, in the testimony of a witness. The assent of the mind to what is given forth as a revelation of man’s relation to God and the infinite; a settled conviction in regard to religion; specifically, in Christian theology, (a) belief in the historic truthfulness of the Scripture narrative and the supernatural origin of its teaching; (b) the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God’s testimony, accompanied by a cordial ascent of the will or approbation (admitting as true and assenting to) of the heart; entire confidence or trust in God’s character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation; also called Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith. WEBSTER’S 1828 DICTIONARY FAITH, n. L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, 1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. 2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, of probable evidence of any kind. 3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. 4. Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith, is the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God's testimony, accompanied with a cordial assent of the will or approbation of the heart; an entire confidence or trust in God's character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation. In other words, that firm belief of God's testimony, and of the truth of the gospel, which influences the will, and leads to an entire reliance on Christ for salvation. I brought in these dictionary definitions to show you that, not long ago, it wasn’t only true Christians who understood the exact meaning of the Biblical word faith: everyone understood it! The Belief of our Reason is an Exercise of Faith, and Faith is an Act of Reason. It is not reason that is taking my faith away: on the contrary, my faith is based on reason. It is my imagination and emotions [that are taking my faith away]. The battle is between faith and reason on one side and emotion and imagination on the other. *** What Is The Biblical Meaning Of The Greek Word Translated “Faith”? Anyone who is teaching God’s Word, has a responsibility to be sure that the meaning of a word translated into English is the actual meaning of the Greek word, before he uses that word to teach anything i.e., theology or a Biblical principle. Take baptism, church, saint; these words no longer have the same meaning in English that they have in the Greek. They have been transliterated or mistranslated instead of being translated. So, any correct Biblical teaching/theology/principle has to be based upon the actual meaning of the word, not its current incarnation/deviation. What follows is an example of how a wrong translation of a single word can give an unbiblical twist to Jesus’ character, and the Biblical truth concerning God’s forgiveness of our sins: when we repent of our sins, God forgives our sins, and He never remembers them again. He certainly does not through them back in our faces. This “twist” is in reference to the Greek meaning of the word(s) translated “love” in John 21:15-17. I have 29 different versions of the Bible/bible, plus 3 Greek versions. Five of them are God’s Word: Bibles written by God to us. Twenty-four were written by religious natural men, for religious natural men, containing religious natural man’s wisdom, philosophies, and beliefs; I call these versions “bibles”: the majority of “christians”/unsaved religious people; love, believe and follow these versions “religiously”. In all but four of these versions, it appears that Jesus is exacting retribution, for Peter having denied him three times, by asking Peter three times if he “loved” Him: “Peter was grieved because He said unto him the third time [for the third time], do you love me?” I saw this scene acted out in a “christian” movie; shown on a “christian” television network. When “Jesus” asks Peter the first time, it was uncomfortable; the question seemed out of character for “Jesus”. Why would “Jesus” promote contention among “His” apostles: pitting the devotion of Peter against the devotion of all the other apostles? When less than a minute passes, and “Jesus” asks the same question the second time, you start to wonder: what is wrong with “Jesus”; why is he picking on poor Peter? And then, a short time later, when “Jesus” asks the same question for the third time; you really start to dislike this “Jesus” who is petty and pedantic, mean-spirited and cruel. This “Jesus” seemed to enjoy tormenting Peter “three times” in retaliation for denying Him “three times". This “Jesus” is a tit-for-tat; you’ll pay for denying me, “lord”, who is not someone any thinking person would want to follow. The “Jesus” of this “christian” movie, is not the Jesus of The Bible. Jesus was not asking Peter the “same question” three times, humiliating and castigating Peter in front of the other disciples, in order for Peter to “atone” for his sin of denying Him three times. If any of that were true, Jesus would be badgering Peter about past sins that he had repented of and received forgiveness for! Luke 22:61-62 (Is there any significance in the fact that God gave Peter a vision “three times”? Or, that He sent “three men” to Peter from Cornelius? I Think Not! Acts 10:9-19) This translation cannot be correct, because it violates a clear teaching in God’s Word: When God forgives our sins He forgets them. God tells us that He never remembers our sins anymore after we repent of them: “He has not dealt with us according to our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward them that fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. Just as a father has pity on his children, so the LORD pities them that fear Him.” Psalm 103:10-13 “I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more” Jeremiah 31:31-34. It also portrays Jesus in a way that is not consistent with the rest of God’s Word: Jesus, setting one of His apostles against the others; and exacting retribution for past sins by cruel public humiliation. Matthew 11:29-30 Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance shows us that two different words for love are used in these passages. Jesus used the word G25 Agapao, deeply love; used of divine love (John 14:21); and of that love which the law demands (Luke 10:27). But Peter used the word G5368 Phileo, to be a friend to; to be fond of; to have affection for. It is a lesser degree of love. This passage does not show Jesus picking on Peter for past sins; but, instead, we see Jesus helping Peter to understand that He accepts the fact that Peter’s love for Him is not as deep as it should be. Jesus is helping Peter to do something that God alone does for anyone who follows Him. At least, it is what He always does for me: My heavenly Father always helps me to “face myself and think”. To see myself as I really am, according to God’s perspective; and to think about myself as I really am, according to God’s perspective i.e., He helps me to stop leaning on my own understanding. Now look at the passage understanding that there are two different words for love used here. Understanding that Jesus asked Peter three different questions; not the same question three times, which would have been cruel and vindictive. So when they had dined, Jesus said to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, do you deeply love Me, more than these [things]? Peter said to Him, Yes, Lord; You know that I have affection for You. Jesus said to him, Feed My lambs. Jesus said to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, do you deeply love Me? Peter said to Him, Yes, Lord; You know that I have affection for You. Jesus said to him, Feed My sheep. Jesus said to him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, do you have affection for Me? Peter was grieved because Jesus said to him the third time, do you have affection for Me? And he said to Him, Lord, You know all things; You know that I have affection for You. Jesus said to him, Feed My sheep. Jesus did not ask Peter the same question over and over and over again. Jesus asked Peter three different questions. What grieved Peter was that, the third time, Jesus asked him if he really did have “a friendly feeling” toward Jesus. Apart from “studying” the meaning of the two different Greek words translated as “love” in John 21; you would not know that Jesus is asking three different questions; not one question over and over and over again. Because most of the English Bibles translate these passages incorrectly; you could come to the wrong conclusion about Who Jesus actually is. These translations portray Jesus as resentful, mean and vindictive which is not the Jesus of The Bible. In relation to our repentance for our sin: the Jesus of The Bible is forgiving, compassionate, merciful, meek and lowly in heart. Back to the question: What Is The Biblical Meaning Of The Greek Word Translated “Faith”? The Biblical definition of the word which is translated faith is persuasion. FAITH [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G4102 pistis (From G3982; Believe) Persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. Persuasion 1. The act of persuading; the act of influencing the mind by arguments or reasons 2. The state of being persuaded or convinced; settled opinion or conviction proceeding from arguments and reasons Credence 1. Belief; credit; reliance of the mind on evidence of facts derived from other sources than personal knowledge, as from the testimony of others Conviction 1. The act of proving, determining to be guilty of an offense charged against a person before a legal tribunal; as by the verdict of a jury. Reliance 1. Rest or repose of mind, resulting from a full belief of the veracity or integrity of a person, or of the certainty of a fact; trust; confidence; dependence. We may have perfect reliance on the promises of God Constancy 1. Fixedness; a standing firm 2. Fixedness or firmness of mind; 3. Certainty; veracity; reality. Veracity n. [L. verax, from verus, true.] 1. Habitual observance of truth, or habitual truth 2. Invariable expression of truth BELIEVE [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G3982 peitho (the root word of faith) A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey,[b] persuade, trust, yield. Convince v.t. [L., to vanquish.] 1. To persuade or satisfy the mind by evidence; to subdue the opposition of the mind to truth 2. To convict; to prove 3. To substantiate; to prove. Believe (pisteuo): is used 250 times throughout the New Testament and is translated: believe, believers, believing, believest, believeth, believed, trust. Its origin is from the word Faith. BELIEVE [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G4100 pisteuo (From G4102) to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. Credit 1. Belief; faith; a reliance or resting of the mind on the truth of something said or done. Trust 1. Confidence; a reliance or resting of the mind on the integrity, veracity, justice, friendship or other sound principle of another person. 2. He or that which is the ground of confidence. Confidence 1. A trusting, or reliance; an assurance of mind or firm belief in the integrity, stability or veracity of another, or in the truth and reality of a fact. Biblical Faith is: Persuasion in what God tells us, which convinces us to believe God, and to trust in God, and to rely on God alone to perform what He said in His Word. *** Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance… The biblical meaning of the word faith is clear; it means persuasion. The biblical meaning of the word substance is also clear. Substance [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G5287 hupostasis From a compound of G5259: hupo, under; and G2476: histemi, to stand; a setting under (support) You can see the basis of the word substance, when you take the word apart, sub and stance: sub; under, beneath, and stance; to stand. Foundation would be a better translation of the word. So instead of faith being a spiritual substance of power and our prowess/ability to use it; Hebrews 11:1 would be better translated as: Now persuasion is the foundation of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Or expanded it could read: Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God, and reliance on God alone is the foundation of everything I hope for; Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God, and reliance on God alone is the evidence of things I have not yet seen. There is no “power” in biblical faith. The word faith simply means God has persuaded us through His Word, to believe Him/believe His Word, and because we believe Him, we trust in Him, and rely on Him alone to fulfill His Word, His Promises to us. Biblical faith is not belief/faith in our own mastery of a “Spiritual Substance of Power”, what some have described as “having faith in our own faith”. *** Grace and Truth came by Jesus The Messiah. God’s Grace, on the other hand, does contain THE POWER OF GOD TO CHANGE US SPIRITUALLY, ETERNALLY. GRACE [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible] G5485 charis From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially The divine influence upon the heart, [Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.] And its reflection in the life; [Order my steps in your word: and do not let any iniquity/wickedness have dominion over me.] Including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy). Graciousness n. Kind condescension. GRACE [Thayer’s Greek Definitions] G5485 charis 2) good will, loving-kindness, favor 2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting His holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues. God, [Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.] Exerting His holy influence upon souls, [No man is able to come to Me if he is not given the power to do so by My Father. Make me to go in the path of Your Commandments.] Turns them to Christ, [No man is able to come to Me if the Father who sent Me does not give him the desire to come.] Keeps, [Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. I know Him in whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.] Strengthens, [Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might. I can do all things through Messiah who strengthens me.] Increases them in Christian faith, [The Christian doctrines/persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God. Go on fighting strongly for the Christian faith which was once delivered to the saints. God has dealt to every man The Measure of faith [persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God].] Knowledge, [In Messiah are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.] Affection, [Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.] and Kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues. [Now the God of peace… make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.] *** Back to Ephesians 2:8-9 “By grace you have been saved, through faith; This is not your own doing: It is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast.” We are saved by grace… Grace… is not our own doing! Grace… is the gift of God! Grace… is not a result of anything we’ve done! It is by Grace… so that no one may boast. Through faith… Faith… is not our own doing! Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us. Faith… is the gift of God! God has dealt to every man the measure of faith. Faith… is not a result of anything we’ve done! But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Through faith… so that no one may boast. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you… according as His divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father… Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God alone unto salvation. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. But he that boasts, let him boast in the Lord. There have always been only two ways: God’s way, or man’s way. By Grace you have been saved, through faith! Is it… I am saved by grace, through My Faith! I am saved by grace; which God only gives, because I released My Spiritual Power of Faith. It is only because I released My Spiritual Power of Faith, that God can save me by grace. Or… I am so persuaded by God, Who said He saved me by His Grace, that I believe I am saved by His Grace, and I trust in His gift of Grace for my salvation, and I rely on His free gift of Grace alone to save me for eternity. Either God gets all the Glory! And no one has anything at all to boast of. 1 Corinthians 1 :30-31, 15:10, 2 Corinthians 4:7, Galatians 6:14, Ephesians 2:4-10, 4:6-7, 5:20, Philippians 4:19, Colossians 1:12-14, 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13, 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 4:11, 5:6,10-11 Or… Man gets the Glory; and we can boast of our own accomplishments. Luke 18:11-14, James 4:13-16 For a Christian it is obvious: Salvation, of body, soul, and spirit; is of The LORD! God Alone Gets All The Glory! The difference can be seen in which word we emphasize in the question asked by Jesus: “Where is your faith?” Now it came to pass on a certain day, that He went into a ship with His disciples: and He said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth. But as they sailed He fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled with water, and were in jeopardy. And they came to Him, and awoke Him, saying, “Master, master, we perish”. Then He arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm. And Jesus said unto them, “Where is your faith?” Luke 8:22-25 As “Overcomers” we were taught: Jesus was rebuking them for coming to Him for help! He was chastising them for not trusting in their own faith; for not relying on their own faith; for not using their own faith to get them out of trouble: “Where is your faith? Where is your own spiritual prowess!? Your ability to use the spiritual power of your own faith!? You should have used your own spiritual prowess to stop the boat from sinking! This is something that you should have been able to do for yourselves ! You should not have needed Me to do it for you! In the other point of view: Jesus is simply admonishing us to trust and rely on God, our Father; no matter what the situation. “Where is your faith?” Where is your persuasion in God that causes you to believe Him, to trust in Him, and rely on Him to keep us safe, even in the midst of this storm? Jesus tells us to have persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God. Again… And when Jesus departed from there, two blind men followed Him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us. And when He was come into the house, the blind men came to Him: and Jesus said to them, Do you believe that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yes, Lord. Then He touched their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. Matthew 9:27-29 What is the emphasis? Let it be unto you according to your faith: according to your prowess/ability to use the spiritual power of your own faith. But Jesus didn’t ask them if they had enough faith to receive healing; Jesus asked them: “Do you believe that I am able to do this? Their answer was yes, Lord Jesus; we believe that You are able to do this. According to your faith, [/b]According to your persuasion in God, that causes you to believe Him, to trust in Him, and to rely on Him to give you your sight. The truth about the real meaning of the word “faith” can be seen in these juxtapositions: It is persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God and reliance on God alone? Or… It is trusting in your own spiritual prowess; relying on your own ability to use this spiritual substance of power? The just shall live by his own spiritual prowess. Or, The just shall live by persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God. Your own spiritual prowess has saved you. Or, Your persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God has saved you. I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your own spiritual prowess is spoken of throughout the whole world. Or, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your persuasion in God, belief in God, trust and reliance in God is spoken of throughout the whole world. Whatsoever is not of your own spiritual prowess is sin. Or, Whatsoever is not of persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God is sin. Have your own spiritual prowess in God. Or, Have persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God. Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through your own spiritual prowess in His blood. Or, Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in His blood. Without your own spiritual prowess it is impossible to please God. Or, Without persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God it is impossible to please Him. Romans 10:17 “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Or, this expanded version: “So then persuasion in God comes by listening to instruction, moreover, listening to instruction through that which has been uttered by the Living Voice of God”. So then your own Spiritual Power/Prowess comes by hearing! Or, So then persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God comes by hearing the Word of God. One is reliance on your own “faith”. As he was “teaching” about Romans 10:17, an “anointed” faith teacher said: If I need faith for something that I am “believing for”, I just say it out loud; and when I hear myself speak, that brings faith: because, faith comes by hearing! The other is looking to God alone. Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God and reliance on God alone comes from listening to the Word of God. If, as one “anointed teacher” said: “God never does anything out of compassion. God only responds to [your] Faith!”; Why then does God speak about/respond to/act upon His own will, mercy and compassion so many times? Matthew 8:2-3, 9:36, 14:14, 15:32, 20:34, Mark 1:40-41, 5:19, 6:34, 8:2, Luke 5:12-13, 7:12-15, 9:11, 13:11-13, 10:33, 15:20 Romans 9:15, Hebrews 5:2, 1 Peter 3:8, Jude 1:21-22 If Jesus believed the “faith message”: When His apostles asked Him to “increase their faith” He would have told them that to make their faith strong they needed to exercise it daily like a muscle, by “believing God” for their desires, needs, etc.; letting their faith (spiritual substance) “stand in the gap” until the full manifestation of what they are “believing for” comes to pass. Instead, Jesus told them: If they had persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God, as small as a grain of mustard seed, that would be enough to do the impossible. Jesus did not teach that we need to build up our “faith”; instead, He knew that our heavenly Father has given to each of us “The Measure” of faith, and that is more than enough. If Peter believed the “faith message”: Why didn’t he teach it after he and John had healed the lame man at the gate called Beautiful? This would have been the perfect time to teach “the faith message” to those who were wondering how this healing had occurred. Peter would have explained that it was his own Spiritual Substance of Power, his own Spiritual Prowess, which came from his great Faith that healed this man. Instead, Peter told them: Why do you look so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? Peter then preaches Jesus The Messiah to them and reveals how the man was healed: And His name; Jesus’ Name, Authority, Character; through persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in Jesus’ Name, Authority, Character, has made this man strong. Luke 9:1-2, 10:1,9,16-17 Peter tells them it was Jesus The Messiah who healed this man not their own “spiritual prowess”. If Paul believed the “faith message”: He would have told Timothy to continue drinking that contaminated water and “believe God” to make it pure for him. He also would have “confessed” perfect health over both Timothy and Trophimus. Instead, Paul told Timothy: Do not drink the water any longer [because it is contaminated], but use a little wine for your stomach's sake [it will help heal your stomach sickness] and your often infirmities. Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick. *** Back to “Jman’s” insightful statement: “No faith stands…until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.” Jesus told us to “go into the whole world, and preach the gospel to everyone. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming The Word with signs following. Amen.” The answer is clear when you understand what Jesus said He would confirm with signs following. Jesus promised to confirm only one thing with signs following: “The Gospel according to God’s Word”. If there are no signs, it is because we are preaching a different Gospel; not the Gospel according to God’s Word! The “faith message” is a false gospel. The “faith” of “The Faith Message” is based upon an incorrect English translation and a misunderstanding of the definitions of two Greek words, pistis (faith) and hupostasis (substance). And, An unbiblical, foundational emphasis based on only four words: “faith is the substance”: Which is believed to mean: “faith is a spiritual substance”, “a spiritual substance of power”. The “faith message” teaches faith as a work that we are responsible to produce for ourselves, for our own salvation: Thy Faith Has Saved Thee! You must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling! The Biblical word “faith” cannot be the foundation for a belief in a mystical, spiritual substance of “power” released by us when we truly “believe” because: faith means persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God: and, sub-stance means foundation. The “faith message” is a false gospel designed by men, who “use” God’s Word to teach unbiblical doctrines that seem correct/Biblical to those of us who are following them, because, they “use” the Bible to “prove” their unorthodox teachings as “christian”. These men apply a form of “biblical” interpretation called eisegesis; which allows them to interject their own personal ideas/beliefs/understanding into their “interpretation” of the bible; which they then present as “biblical” by means of biblical “proof-texting”. They start by taking their own unbiblical doctrine(s) and then “seek out” verses that say/prove what they believe; providing “proof” from the “text” of the bible that it is “biblical”. This often requires that certain words, or even whole verses, be taken out of their context, in order to be “understood” as they need/wish them to be. Take for instance the teaching that we alone are responsible to keep ourselves “saved”; which was (along with other verses) proof-texted with : “You must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Sounds right, it is what the Bible says. But, we were never told to read the second half of the verse, which adds: “Because it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” The balance provided by God’s word, persuades us that we can believe Him and trust in Him and rely on Him, to make sure that we not only desire to do His will; but, that God our Father, will empower us, by His Grace, to actually do His will. This one should be very familiar: We were taught to be careful about the words that we speak, because, just like God, we have the “power” to “speak things into being”. And, because we have this “power”, we must not make any “negative confessions” which can “snare” us, and cause us to not receive whatever it is we are “confessing into being”. And the proof-text offered for this “biblical truth”: “You are snared by the words of your mouth, you are taken by the words of your mouth.” But when you look at the context of this verse, you find that, once again, it is only half of the sentence; which in context actually reads: “My son, if you are surety for your friend [co-signer of his loan], if you have stricken your hand with a stranger [given your word that you will do something], You are snared by the words of your mouth, you are taken by the words of your mouth.” This simply means that, if a friend asks you to be a co-signer of his loan; and you promise that you will take on this obligation; or you promise to do something for a stranger: Because “you gave your word”; you are obligated (“snared”) to keep your word/promise. Because, as a follower of The God of The Bible, Who says regarding promises He makes: “God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: has He said, and shall He not do it? or has He spoken, and shall He not make it good?”: we are also required to keep our word whenever we give it. Matthew 5:37 The “faith message”, as it is currently believed/practiced, began with the teachings of a man named E.W. Kenyon. I know that Hobart Freeman told us not to look into Kenyon’s past or teachings; but, after I left the “church”, I did. I needed to find out what was wrong with what I believed. You may remember Tom Hamilton’s adage: “People say that what we teach sounds like “christian science”! It’s not “christian science”; it’s christian sense.” In 1892, E.W. Kenyon attended Emerson College, a “spiritual” institution inundated with metaphysical, cultic ideas and practices. Unitarianism, Metaphysics, New Thought, and Mary Baker Eddy’s “christian science” were some of the “spiritual” influences advocated and taught to students at this school. Charles Mallory, a frequent guest lecturer at the college, said of Emerson College, This is a school where the philosophy of life is taught. It ought to be called, “The First Church of Emerson.” The college was named for its founder Charles Wesley Emerson, who was a believer in, and an advocate of: Unitarianism, Metaphysics, New Thought, Mary Baker Eddy’s “christian science”, and Phineas P. Quimby (Eddy’s mentor). *** When any Christian (or even an unbeliever) raises questions about what I believe; I am obligated to search out the answers to those questions and be willing to accept that I may be wrong (according to God’s Word) about what I believe. Especially if their concerns are based upon the clear teaching of God’s Word. As Christians, we must listen to every brother and sister in Jesus, and trust/believe that they are trying to help us to turn back to God; this is why God illustrates our relationship to each other as a “body”, and as brothers and sisters in Messiah Jesus. Just like a family we are responsible for each other, and we are required to watch out for each other, and to help each other walk uprightly, according to The Truth of God’s Word. We must: Examine everything carefully; and hold fast to that which is good. We are responsible to try to help everyone that comes across our path. Luke 10:29-37 We are responsible to help those brothers and sisters who have strayed from the truth, gotten caught in error, or false teaching: “Brethren, if any Christian wanders away from the truth, and one brings him back, turns him back to the truth; let him know, that he which brings back the sinner from straying, from delusion, from error, shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” According to God’s Word, we are our brother’s and sister’s keeper. The following is an example of what happened when I tried to help an “Overcomer” to see that he may not be a Christian at all; but, only a false convert; a “religious” person. I knew him most of my life; but he cut me out of his life after we became “Overcomers”. He was “saved” believing “the faith message”. He has never exhibited any Christian fruit as long as I have known him. He is exactly the same as he was before he “got saved”; except that he now goes to “church”, something that many “religious” people do. He doesn’t follow God’s Word The Bible. Instead, with unquestioning devotion, he follows “anointed” men. He has never been an example of how following Jesus changes us into Christians who demonstrate to the world through our new life—our spiritual new birth—that a born-again believer in Jesus The Messiah thinks, acts and speaks like Jesus; and doesn’t think, act or speak like a worldly man any longer. Romans 6:6, 2Corinthians 5:17, 6:17, He once got a friend of his (also an “Overcomer”) to lie to me in an email, in order to try to trick me into reading something from him; even though I made it clear to him I didn’t want to read any more of his unbiblical beliefs. Colossians 3:8-9, Titus 3:10 One example of his worldliness: Like many unsaved men, he did, and still does, use the “f” word frequently. When I told him that using the “f” word is not a good witness for a follower of Jesus, he said, completely unconcerned about my admonition, “Do you really think that god cares about the words we say?” I pointed out to him that The God of The Bible does care about the words coming out of our mouths: “A good tree does not bring forth corrupt fruit; neither does a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush do they gather grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; And an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil: For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." And again: “How can you, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth [speaks] good things: And an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth [speaks] evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.” Ephesians 4:29-32 But… He did not believe God’s Word. Even though what he believes clearly contradicts God’s Word; he still believed that he was right. He wasn’t moved at all by the words of Jesus. Why didn’t he believe what Jesus said? Jesus explains why people do not believe what He says: You do not believe [what I say], because you are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. He that is of God hears, listens to, and obeys God's words: you therefore do not hear, listen to, and obey them, because you are not of God. *** This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in vain do they worship me, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God. You ignore God's commandments, and you are holding on to the teachings that men have made up. And he said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, so that you may keep your own tradition. Either we are following the teachings of men or we are following God according to His Word. The following story illustrates the point: Not long ago, my wife and I invited an “assistant pastor” (he held a job as a “pastor” for 25 years) from a local “Baptist” “church” to have him look into God’s Word with us to discuss the doctrines we hold as being Biblical i.e., clearly taught in the Bible. We thought we would start with something easy, like marriage/divorce/and remarriage, or tongues. We were trying to find out how anyone could possibly ignore the clear definition of adultery given by Jesus in Matthew 19:3-12, and allow anyone to remarry; regardless of Jesus’ one and only exception for remarriage; or annul the Biblical truth of “tongues” as plainly taught in 1Corinthians 14; hoping to dispel the misunderstanding about tongues, that comes from not recognizing that God is speaking about three different “kinds” of tongues in this chapter. I thought the best way to start was to have us read these verses together, and then talk about them: simple enough? But… As our friend started to “read” from his Bible, my wife and I tried to follow along with him but couldn’t. We were all using the King James Version; yet, not even one word that he “read” from his Bible could be found in our King James Bibles. At first this caused much confusion; where are the words that he is “reading” from his bible? Why aren’t those words in our Bibles? Then it dawned on us what was happening: Instead of reading God’s Word to guide us/teach us about tongues… he was “reading” into his bible the “Baptist” doctrine of how “tongues” had passed away and were no longer necessary for the “church” during this time etc., etc., etc. This not only astounded us, it became a valuable lesson, illustrating a serious problem endemic in the “church” and in “christians”: They cannot read, believe, understand, follow, or obey God’s Word; because they only read, believe, understand, follow and obey the doctrines of men. This man was hoping to indoctrinate us into the “Baptist” “teaching” about “tongues”. What he did not know was that we are Jesus’ sheep, Christians, who know, believe and follow God/God’s Word. We cannot follow man’s teachings. Without knowing it, this “pastor” became the “poster-boy” to illustrate exactly what is wrong with the “church” at this point in time: when “christians” “read” God’s Word, they can only hear what men told them to hear; they can only believe what men told them to believe; they can only understand what men told them to understand. This “pastor” was incapable of even reading God’s Word without interjecting man’s interpretation/doctrines directly into the text of the Bible as he “reads” it. This is frightening! Imagine what it would be like to never again hear from God through His Word. To only believe and follow what men tell you to believe and follow? To be incapable of reading God’s Word without filtering it through man’s ideas/interpretation/doctrines/beliefs. To always read God’s Word with a veil over your heart and mind. Their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of God’s Word; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when God’s Word is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Matthew 13:9, 13-15 They teach man-made ideas as if they were the Word of God. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who did not believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. I believe God’s people today are in the same position they were in when Jesus first came to turn them back to God/God’s Word: they didn’t believe or even know the Word of God anymore, because their “religious” “leaders” were teaching their own doctrines and not The Word of God. Mark 1:22,27, 11:18, Luke 4:32,36, John 7:15-17, Matthew 7:28, 22:33, 2 Cor 2:17, Colossians 2:18-22 2Tim 4:1-4, Titus 1:9-16 In the Bible, Christians are those who believe, trust and follow Jesus the Messiah. The Jesus revealed in God’s Word. Throughout my life I have met, and know of, many people who identify themselves as: “Catholics” “Jehovah’s Witness’” “Lutherans” “Red Letter christians” “Baptists” “Methodists” “Mormons” “Charismatics” “Overcomers” And they admit they are following: The Pope/church The Watchtower/Awake/prophets Martin Luther/church The Social gospel/socialist/communist/”reformers” Baptist teachings? The Social gospel/socialist/communist/”reformers” The Book of Mormon/Joseph Smith/Brigham Young/prophets Anointed teachers/apostles/prophets/the Holy Spirit/the still small inner voice/personal revelations/”revelation knowledge” The Faith Message/anointed teachers/apostles/prophets/the Holy Spirit/the still small inner voice/personal revelations/”revelation knowledge” I once found someone online who had almost the exact/same testimony as mine, except, at the end of my testimony, I became a Christian, a follower of Jesus The Messiah. And at the end of his testimony, he became a “christian” AND, a “Lutheran”. “christians” are “religious” people who are following men instead of following Jesus through God’s Word. All the unbiblical beliefs that they hold to while disregarding the clear teaching of God’s Word to the contrary, are proof that they are following men and not God: Infant baptism, “Sacraments”, the “Eucharist”, the “Mass”, if you go to “church” you are a “christian”, etc. These are more beliefs, taught by men, which are not found anywhere in the New Testament: “Pleading The Blood of Jesus”, “Believeing God For”, “Anointed” teachers, Only “anointed” teachers can “teach” God’s Word, “The Fresh Bread from Heaven”/“The New Word of God”, “Touch not the Lord’s anointed!” Negative/positive “confessions”, We have the power to “speak things into being”, just like God, Christians calling themselves “The End Time Army of God”, Christians calling themselves “Overcomers”, Christians living a “Deeper Life”, “The faith message” i.e., faith is a Spiritual Power. “Jman” states: “At the time of this post… FA, the satellites, the spinoffs, and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 63 days.” This can only be true if you don’t believe: “The word of God is alive and active, sharper than any double-edged sword. It cuts all the way through, to where soul and spirit meet, to where joints and marrow come together. It judges the desires and thoughts of the heart. There is nothing that can be hidden from God; everything in all creation is exposed and lies open before His eyes. And it is to Him that we must all give an account of ourselves.” Or: “All scripture is God breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: so that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” Christians have never been without God’s apostles or prophets because God tells us: We are of the household of God; and the household of God is built upon “the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” The Church of God has never been without His apostles and prophets; God’s people never will be without apostles and prophets as long as we continue to listen to/believe/obey God’s Word The Bible. It is religious man’s “church” that is without God’s apostles and prophets. Any child of God can listen to/believe/obey any of God’s true apostles and prophets any time we desire; with complete confidence and assurance that we are hearing The Eternal Word of God written for us at this present time: and this same Word will teach us throughout all of eternity. Because only Jesus spoke Eternal Words; Only Jesus has The Words of Eternal Life: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.” “If a man loves Me, he will keep My Words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him. He that does not love Me does not keep My Sayings: and the Word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.” God made His Word greater than all His Name. Psalm 138:2 We have been born again by the living and eternal Word of God. 1Pet 1:23 Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek God’s Word. Psalm 119:155 Now all these things [from the Old Testament] happened unto them as examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 1Cor 10:11 Jesus always taught God’s Word. John 7:16-17, 14:24 *** As I said in an earlier post: I am looking for Christians. Christians like the one I called concerning a tract that I believe isn’t Biblical in its emphasis on our “suffering for Christ”. I wrote about this in an earlier post, it is a true story about an exchange I had that could have ended in anger and resentment on the part of the person I was talking with/questioning/trying to help. But, instead, his reaction was one of friendship, brotherly love and a teachable spirit: like Apollos in Acts 18:24-26 and the Bereans in Acts 17:11-12 I came across a tract that seemed to be encouraging us to suffer in a deeper way, so we could add our serious physical and emotional suffering to the suffering of Jesus The Messiah. Like the Roman Catholic's believe. I called the ministry listed on the tract and asked the man who answered if he was familiar with it. He said he was not (because they print so many tracts) and I proceeded to tell him why I thought the tract was not Biblical, i.e., it was promoting an idea of God's purpose in our suffering that was not Biblical. I once had a "pastor" tell me that I shouldn't be telling Christians what the Word of God says, because, "That will offend them." Really… Christians offended by God’s Word? I am a Christian. I love to hear and read and talk about God's Word. I have never been offended by hearing God's Word. Deuteronomy 6:6-7 Convicted… Yes! Challenged… Certainly! Helped… Always! Offended? NEVER! Anyway... This person could have "reacted" in anger and self-defense: who do you think that you are!? This is my ministry! I answer to God alone! I don’t care what you or anyone else thinks or says about my tracts: I know that they are right! I would never put out a tract that was not Christian or Biblical! I will thank you to keep your opinions to yourself! He could have said that... After all, I was questioning his ministry. He could have... But he didn't. Instead... He promised me that because he wasn't familiar with the tract, he would get it, read it, and re-evaluate it in the light of what I had brought to his attention. And then… We started telling each other how great it was that Jesus was our Lord and Savior. He told me what God was currently doing in his life. I was encouraged to see the hand of God working in this man's life. And then I told him about the things that God was doing in my life. Throughout our conversation we were quoting the Scriptures that God was working into our lives daily. My saying at that time was: this is not just what God's Word says: this is what He is actually doing in my life right now! Through sharing God's Word with each other, God was showing us that we truly were brothers in Messiah Jesus. We knew that we were both sheep belonging to Jesus The Shepherd. Even though we had only met a few minutes before; I knew this man was a true Christian. I knew because of his love for God's Word and for me (John 13:35). I knew because of the way he reacted to my "criticism" of his ministry. He acted just like a man that wants to show Jesus to everyone that comes across his path. He treated me with respect and kindness, just as Jesus would. He acted as if we had been close brothers all of our lives; and he was truly glad that I had cared enough to point out something to him that might need to be looked into or changed. I was delighted to have had the opportunity to share with my brother all the things that God had been doing in my life. And we both praised Jesus for all He had done in our lives! Think about it... I called him to point out something I thought was wrong (which took about 4 minutes to explain); And for the rest of our conversation (about 20 minutes): We both got side-tracked into praising Jesus! And talking about what Jesus was doing in our lives today! I really enjoyed sharing God’s Word with him, and hearing how God was speaking to him through His Word! JESUS was the center of everything that we thought and said during our time together. It Was Great! I have been looking for Christians like this man; but I can't seem to find any. I will keep looking and remember that I once met a stranger who was more like a true brother (in every sense of the word) than any "christian" I have ever met. I thank God for our short time together, and I look forward to talking to him again. When I started my journey with Messiah Jesus, my wife, my two brothers and I used to sit around with our Bibles open and talk about The Word of God. We used to discuss the Scriptures we had read, and how great God’s Word was. Those days were a great time of fellowship with each other around God’s Word. But, those times of sharing God’s Word ended when we joined “faith assembly” and I lost Christian fellowship with my brothers. My first love was Jesus/God's Word. I would read my Bible (ten chapters) every day and talk about Jesus/God’s Word with every person I met. Deut 6:6-7. I was insatiable. This is what I believe Jesus meant about us recognizing that we had forsaken our first love, to remember where we were (spiritually) before we fell, and to stop going any farther in the wrong direction and repent (turn around), and do the first works again. Rev 2:4-5 God “woke me up” when I returned to my first love, about six years ago. Now this is what I am holding on to: the salvation of my heart, soul, mind, body, and spirit by the Grace of God, which is the power of God, to keep me saved, and to keep me safe with Him, now and for eternity. I am persuaded by what God says to me in The Bible, To believe what God says to me in The Bible, To trust in God as my heavenly Father, And to rely on my heavenly Father, to keep the promises, that He has persuaded me to believe. I marvel that you are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I declare to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. If you continue in My word, then are you My disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. Set Free by Jesus: The Word of God. His servant and yours Tom You can email me at: asmokingflax@live.com *** notes #1 I realize that Hobart Freeman believed that some of these verses “prove” that Christians can lose their salvation. He believed that God cannot save us from our selves; from our own natural tendency to wander away from Him. Freeman taught that God can save us; but, God cannot keep us saved: staying saved depends entirely on us. It is completely up to us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling! Many men believe this; it was first taught by a man named Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609). But, I believe God. I am persuaded by God’s Word, to believe what He said, and to trust and rely on Jesus alone Who taught: “Whoever eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. I believe, trust and rely on Jesus who tells me I have eternal life! I already possess eternal life! John 5:24, 6:35,37,39,40,44,47,50,51,54,57,58, 10:27-29, 11:25-26 He did not say that I have a chance at eternal life depending entirely on me. He also promised to raise me up at the last day, ”I will raise him up at the last day.” He did not say, “I may raise him up at the last day; but, that depends entirely on what he does with his life”. And in Matthew 7:21-27 Jesus said: “I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.” If this verse taught that you could lose your salvation, Jesus would have said: “I knew you at one time, when I saved you; but, you walked away from Me, and I no longer know you.” But Jesus said I NEVER knew you; you were NEVER one of My sheep. “My sheep hear My voice, and I KNOW them, and They follow Me: and I give to them eternal life; and They shall NEVER [no, not at all, not by ANY means] perish, [The word “never” is a double negative; there isn’t any way at all for His sheep to perish!] Neither shall ANY PERSON take them out of My hand.” [I myself am a “person” so this promise includes me.] Every Work of God is Perfect, Complete, Lacking Nothing. It is an insult to God’s Intelligence, Mercy and Compassion to say He doesn’t understand that: When it comes to our ability to obey God: we are our own worst enemies. God’s Perfect Work of Salvation would have to include saving us from our own unbelief, our own faithlessness, our own wandering, our own disobedience, our own sinfulness, our own wickedness… in other words: Our sinful, hopeless, evil, SELVES! Romans 3:10-12, Jeremiah 4:22, Micah 7:2, Luke 18:19 The Eternal Security of the Believer is too large a topic to go into here, but… I will tell you that: I am persuaded by God’s Word, to believe what He said, and to trust and rely on Jesus alone to save me and keep me from EVERY THING/EVERY SIN that could cause me to fall away from Him. I know that God started this work in me and He promises to finish it i.e., get me to heaven. Philippians 1:6, 1Peter 1:3-5, Psalm 37:5-6, 138:8, Isaiah 46:11b I am persuaded, that nothing shall be able to separate me from the love of God, which is in Jesus The Messiah my Lord. Because I love God’s Law/Word I have great peace: and nothing shall cause me to fall. Psalm 119:165 I have gone astray like a lost sheep many times; but God always seeks His servants, sheep, children who wander away from Him; for I do not forget His Commandments/Word. Psalm 119:176, Luke 15:1-32 *** #2 I knew something was wrong! I couldn’t understand why my relationship with Jesus had become so distant and unreal when it had started out so intimate and just as real as my relationship with my wife. We were assured this was simply a trial of our “faith”, and that we needed to keep pressing forward “walking by faith, not by feeling”, which I did; but this just added to my desperation and sense of loss which helped to convince me that for the benefit of the assembly I should leave; so, I did. The effect of my leaving was: Just as He did when I first started reading His Word; God began speaking to me again. I cried out to God; why are you so distant? (James 4:8) What is wrong? The first thing He did was give me a vision: It was of a large cylinder or drum that should have been turning, but, it was rusted and couldn’t turn at all: It wasn’t working anymore. He led me to understand that what wasn’t working anymore was my ability to think: “You must love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, MIND, and strength.” He let me know that I had stopped using the mind He gave me to understand His Word; which is critical because: “When any one hears the Word of the Kingdom, and doesn’t understand it, then the wicked one comes, and takes away that which was sown in his heart.” The mind He gave me to reason with Him: “Come let us reason together”. The mind He gave me to convince the unsaved of the truth of God’s Word: “Always be ready to give an answer to everyone that asks you to give the reason for the hope that is in you”. “And Paul, as his manner was, went in among them, and on three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures” Acts 17:2, 18:4,19, 24:25 Since I was no longer listening to the teachings of men: God could once again speak to me through His Word The Bible; just as He did when He started His relationship with me. “You have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the first works.” My first love and my first works were listening to and obeying God as He would speak to me through His Word, and I was joyfully working out my own salvation with fear and trembling, as God changed my will, to desire to do His will. He also empowered me to carry out His will; which was to change me daily, by His Grace, into the image of Jesus. Remember—as I stated in my testimony—no man talked me into becoming a Christian. No one witnessed to me: I was completely alone; it was just me and God’s Word. God convinced me of my desperate sinfulness, my indefensible guilt, and my absolute need of Jesus The Messiah to save me from the eternal punishment I had earned, as He spoke directly to me through His Word The Bible. My foundation, when God first started His relationship with me, was His Word The Bible. The only time I ever listened to men, instead of God’s Word, was when I was following Hobart Freeman and “The Faith Message”. And, little by little, my personal connection to Jesus slipped away, as I substituted “the faith message” for a relationship with Jesus through God’s Word. *** The Dangers of Believing Error In the first place, every deviation from the truth is a sin. It is not simply a sin for me to do a wrong act, but it is a sin for me to believe a wrong doctrine. Lately our ministers have absolved us all from obeying God in our judgments; they have told us point blank, (many of them, in their drawing-rooms, and some of them in the pulpit) that we shall never be asked in the Day of Judgment what we believed. We have been told that for our actions we shall be responsible, but for our faith we shall be irresponsible (or something very much like it). They have told us plainly, that the God who made us, although He has authority over our hands, our feet, our eyes and our lips, hath but little authority over our judgments; they have told us, that if we make ever such blunders in divinity, there are no sins, so long as we can live right lives. But is that true? No: the whole man is bound to serve God; and if God gives me a judgment, I am bound to employ that judgment in His service; and if that judgment receives an untruth, it has received stolen goods, and I have sinned as much as if I put forth my hand to take my neighbor’s goods. There may be degrees in the sin. If it be a sin of ignorance, it is nevertheless a sin; but it is not so heinous as a sin of negligence, which I fear it is with many. I tell you, beloved, if, for instance, baptism be not immersion, I commit a sin every time I practice it; and if it be, my brother commits a sin who does not practice it. If election be true, I am committing a sin if I do not believe it; and if final perseverance be true, I am committing a sin before Almighty God, if I do not receive it; and if it be not true, then I sin in embracing what is not scriptural. Error in doctrine is as much a sin as error in practice. In everything we are bound to serve our God with all our might, exercising those powers of judging and believing which He has given unto us; and I warn you, Christians, not to think it is a little thing to hold faith with a feeble hand: it is a sin every time you do aught which makes you waver in the faith of Jesus Christ. Remember, too, that error in doctrine is not only a sin, but a sin which has a great tendency to increase. When a man once in his life believes a wrong thing, it is marvelous how quickly he believes another wrong thing. Once you open the door to a false doctrine—(Satan says it is but a little one)—ai, but he only puts the little one in like the small end of a wedge, and he means to drive in a larger one; and he will say it is only a little more, and a little more, and a little more. The most damnable heretics who ever perverted the faith of God erred by littles and littles; those who have gone the widest from truth have only gone so slowly…by degrees… Take care, Christians, if you commit one error, you cannot tell how many more you will commit. “Hold fast the form of sound words,” (That is what the apostle Paul commanded Timothy. Because error in doctrine almost inevitably leads to error in practice. When a man believes wrongly, he will soon act wrongly. Faith has a great influence on our conduct. As a man’s faith, so is he. If you begin to imbibe erroneous doctrines, they soon have an effect on your practice.) Keep fast to the bulwarks of your Father’s faith. If you do not, the enemy will make sad havoc with you. “Hold fast (as scripture says) the form of sound words which was delivered unto you.” Charles Spurgeon *** The obvious way to understand any doctrine taught in the Word of God; especially paradoxes, is to: Subject the obscure to the straightforward. The Bible is clear about many things, so always allow that which is clear to be a guide in unraveling that which is not clear. In other words, trust the perspicuity (clarity, plainness, intelligibility, transparency) of Scripture. As the old adage goes, "Let the main things be the plain things; and the plain things be the main things." *** The main difference between a Christian and a religious person is that a Christian understands that it is God who does everything for us by His Grace, and we will always seek to bring Him the glory. Galatians 2:20, 1Cor 1:27-31 As a Christian teacher succinctly put it: Christianity is 100% God; and 100% us. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, because it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." “Now the God of peace… make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Eph 2:8-10, Gal 2:20, Heb 13:20-21, 2Tim 1:12, Jude 1:24, Prov 21:1 This perspective has helped me greatly as I continue my relationship with my heavenly Father, through His Word/His Son Jesus/His Holy Spirit. Christians understand that we are only unprofitable servants. Does the Master of the servant thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So you likewise, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, “We are unprofitable servants: we have only done that which was our duty to do.” As followers of Jesus The Messiah, we understand that we are only doing what God already meant/planned for us to do. But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Messiah, (by Grace you are saved;) And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Messiah Jesus: That in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His Grace in His kindness toward us through Messiah Jesus. For by Grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Messiah Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. His servant Tom
Hi Tom, You said: Jesus promised to confirm only one thing with signs following: “The Gospel according to God’s Word”. If there are no signs, it is because we are preaching a different Gospel; not the Gospel according to God’s Word! ================================== Where do you believe the real Gospel is preached? - with signs following of course. Jman ---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------ At the time of this post . . . FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church without apostles for 41 years and 198 days. Initial start date 1/1/72 Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
Bro Flax I have a question for you as well. In light of your comments to me about the mind vs the heart. What do you believe it is that enters eternity when a person dies.
I just noticed the scripture included in the 'help' Tom offered to Sue and the others... "Here is the long version for you and the others to use. Luke 11:53-54" I don't think we need a concordance or Greek word study to 'get the message'. Speaking of doing word studies(there is a place for in-depth studies of words, both Greek and Hebrew, as I'm sure we'd all agree.) the pastor of the church I attended last Sunday made this statement..."A person drowning doesn't need to know the Greek definition of the word 'lifebouy', they just need the lifebouy." This was spoken in the context of the message he was teaching concerning how some Christians get bogged down in word studies, reading all the lastest Christian books, going to conferences and seminars; and forget what we're called to do, share the good news of Jesus Christ and what He's done in our lives and can/will do in theirs. The study/discipleship comes later.
"I just noticed the scripture included in the 'help' Tom offered to Sue and the others... "Here is the long version for you and the others to use. Luke 11:53-54" I don't think we need a concordance or Greek word study to 'get the message'. Speaking of doing word studies(there is a place for in-depth studies of words, both Greek and Hebrew, as I'm sure we'd all agree.) the pastor of the church I attended last Sunday made this statement..."A person drowning doesn't need to know the Greek definition of the word 'lifebuoy', they just need the lifebouy." This was spoken in the context of the message he was teaching concerning how some Christians get bogged down in word studies, reading all the latest Christian books, going to conferences and seminars; and forget what we're called to do, share the good news of Jesus Christ and what He's done in our lives and can/will do in theirs. The study/discipleship comes later." I am aware of some believers who can't say "Jesus" anymore. They believe it is pagan. In reality, the word Jesus is a removed derivative having it's roots in the Septuagint. The word "Jesus" became a hot mess from Hebrew to Greek. After all, the Latin culture name their children "Jesus" all of the time. My husband works with a " Jesus." There is a slash over the u. The translation from Hebrew to Greek is properly invalid. I posted an article addressing this issue on OO. There is no J in Hebrew. The Tetragrammaton (YHWH) presented in the OT in Hebrew, is another thread. It certainly does not refer to "Jesus." It took hundred of years to do so. I pray to Jesus. That is Who I met when I was 20 years old. Jesus is "I Am, To Be," to me. If I was in the middle of the ocean, drowning, aspirating, and could not blurt out, "Jesus " but knew in my mind on Whom to call (Jesus) what would happen? Do Word studies matter at this point? Do I need a check list from my soul (mind) for a proper name? I think "blub or gurgle" would be His name at this point. Do I need a check list for faith? Meaning? Translation? Application? You better be able to process quickly! Drowning here....... Strong's Concordance where are you? Blurb...... Would my grandchild be able to process all of the transcript on Faith? Is faith such a great mystery? Can faith get to the point of being Gnostic in idealism? Maybe I need to be like a child and just know that He is there for me. Novel idea. My mind is processing the word, "Jesus." My soul is crying out to my Messiah, "Jesus" from my spirit. Are they separated in eternity? Does our entire soul go to heaven? The Word says we will not remember this earth and that is our thinking process; soul. But, our Spirit cries out to God through our soul. Does the Word mention our thought processes (soul) in heaven? Will we have a soul along with being spirit in New Jerusalem? HEF needs to have a site like a theological Google. I don't know about anyone else, but I appreciate HEF as a genius of the Word. He could divide, comprehend, and present the Word like none other. Anybody I have heard since my time at FA, does not hold a candle to him. All glory to God. It was a teaching gift. I don't want to address the politics and culture of FA at this point. I believe that HEF was a teacher, in of itself. He was not a pastor. He did not pretend to be a pastor. If he would have been given the gift of pastor and teacher, this would have solved many culture crises' at FA. BTW...Saying, "God" is suppose to be pagan too. Paleeze, don't go there. I simply can't wait for the answer to Mark L.'s question and input from everyone.
GWB, Loved your response here. If you would take a waterproof Strong's with you, it can serve as a float in the water that you could study till help came. Oh you may need a waterproof vines to fight off the sharks with. LOL This is the first I have heard of the use of the name of Jesus not being in the Greek. To carry this even further. A number of years back someone told me that a well known TV evangelist said, we do not really need the Bible all we need is John 3:16. Oh I forgot floating out there in the water with this theology we would have to deal with the "G" word. Maybe this is why its safer to stick with Readers Digest sermons. If Marks question does not get answered maybe we can at least find out and get a response about using the "J" on Jesus study, how about it SmokinFlax? Gary
Good one, ! Lol I do appreciate a good debate on faith. I have learned that He does answer and take care of me by the faith of my comprehension. I guess He is meeting me where I am at without understanding the full meaning of faith or substance. I don't know. I am not trying to belittle any debate that is transpiring. I simply don't even understand the main question. For that, I am sorry. I have learned that the more we simplify, the better the results. That is for me. So, with that being said, I will continue to hear the views and "focus" PS I m saved. Amen.
Word Study...persecution complex "A persecution complex is a term given to an array of phychologically-complex behaviors, that specifically deals with the perception of being persecuted, for various possibe reasons, imagined or real." Persecution Complex in religion: "Christian fundamentalist often 'feel' persecuted or "oppressed" whenever they find someone that doesn't share their particular worldview." Manifestion? Quoting scripture that has no bearing on subject at hand (out of context) in order to paint those being addressed as the villians (scribes and Pharisees) and setting themselves up as being righteous or in a like position as Jesus Christ.("laying wait for him[Jesus], and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.") Those guilty? Probably all of us, at some time or another. But sometimes it takes others angle of view to see things that we are sometimes blinded to. Could this be a form of Body ministry, for self examination? Of showing love without being critical?
Sounds interesting James but I don't understand what you are referring to. Quote: Persecution Complex in religion: "Christian fundamentalist often 'feel' persecuted or "oppressed" whenever they find someone that doesn't share their particular worldview." Manifestion? Quoting scripture that has no bearing on subject at hand (out of context) in order to paint those being addressed as the villians (scribes and Pharisees) and setting themselves up as being righteous or in a like position as Jesus Christ.("laying wait for him[Jesus], and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.") Are you talking about something specific here? I have wondered about some teachings that pull scripture out of context to prove a point. Is this similar to what you are saying? Many ministers practice this, but is it Biblical? Gary
Alanbook wrote on Wed, 07 August 2013 15:39 Sounds interesting James but I don't understand what you are referring to. Gary, I was responding to Tom's use of Luke 11:53-54 after he reposted his faith post to 'Sue and all the others'. Quote: Persecution Complex in religion: "Christian fundamentalist often 'feel' persecuted or "oppressed" whenever they find someone that doesn't share their particular worldview." Manifestion? Quoting scripture that has no bearing on subject at hand (out of context) in order to paint those being addressed as the villians (scribes and Pharisees) and setting themselves up as being righteous or in a like position as Jesus Christ.("laying wait for him[Jesus], and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.") Are you talking about something specific here? Message #9617 I have wondered about some teachings that pull scripture out of context to prove a point. Is this similar to what you are saying? Many ministers practice this, but is it Biblical? We've all done it, ministers or not...There are times it's not Biblical, just the flesh or misguided zeal. imo Gary
I appreciate all of the input and opinions. Pretend that you are in a closed box. This box is totally controlled and monitored. You are barely surviving. Your food is measured out. Your contacts outside of this box are controlled and monitored. Within this box, you are being attacked physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Everyone outside of this box has been convinced by satan that you do not need help. Tell me what you would do or say ( confess) to get out. Also, in childbirth, at home, I labored in pain and screamed so much that they had to close the windows. I told Him that my life was in His hands. I told Him that I would give one last push, after 36 hous, and then I wanted me and my baby to go home to heaven to be with Him if my baby was not delivered. Again, pretend you are in a closed box. When you roll over, in this box, you do not know if someone or something is going to kill you or defile you. Just like the childbirth, you decide to give your life to Him. Either live or die by any means. This is a long and exhausting thread on the words faith and substance. For my benefit, would someone please explain to me how this thread is relevant to these two experiences I have presented? I sincerely believe that this debate is much too complicated. This person is alive from an enclosed box and from childbirth. What am I missing? Why the long debate? Either you know He has your back, or you don't.
Okay I see what you mean. The problem I see is you cannot base your experience on what happened to others in or out of church. Many things Christians believe cannot be found in scripture. For instance what about small children, aborted babies, and children under the age of accountability. Most believe that these kids all go to heaven if they die before a certain age. Do we have scriptures that spell this out for us? This is one among many beliefs that Christians hold to. If you add to the list Tom gave it would eventually explain way the Bible. Quote: Here is the List he gave: These are more beliefs, taught by men, which are not found anywhere in the New Testament: “Pleading The Blood of Jesus”, “Believeing God For”, “Anointed” teachers, Only “anointed” teachers can “teach” God’s Word, “The Fresh Bread from Heaven”/“The New Word of God”, “Touch not the Lord’s anointed!” Negative/positive “confessions”, We have the power to “speak things into being”, just like God, Christians calling themselves “The End Time Army of God”, Christians calling themselves “Overcomers”, Christians living a “Deeper Life”, “The faith message” i.e., faith is a Spiritual Power. Where do you stop with the list? The Bible does not say grace is amazing but everyone knows that it is. But there is no scripture stating this. Believers started using the name "Christian" at Antioch, did they have a scripture to start this practice? Disciples, believers calling themselves "Christians". The Bible is spiritually discerned and is not interpreted through Websters 1828 dictionary. In message #9617 if we applied what Tom wrote to the NT church we could use the same logic and explain away the teachings of men, namely Paul, John, etc. etc.. Many are doing this in these end times. There is always another side of the coin that is not being presented, I know people who know Tom and his wife personally and I think he is painting a different picture of himself here, then what happened in the past. Gary
Ok, I believe and understand what you have said. In the end, it is either head or heart. People need to choose. Either you have a relationship with Him or you have a relationship with your brain. When you trust Jesus, you will be able to jump off of cliffs and know that He will catch you. When you admire your brain, you continue to question and scrutinize. What group of people did that in the Word? Did Jesus like them? What group of people is available to Jesus to use for His plan? How did the great "faith" people fit into this group? Example: Smith Wigglesworth. Is that too simple? Also, please apply all of the manuscript in this thread to the two examples I presented. Babes come to OO to learn. Anyone....please say something about all of this that I can repeat to my grandkids. The Bible says that even children can understand faith. My grandkids are coming over this weekend. Tell me how to explain faith to them. What say you?
Also, as far as "the list" is concerned, why are men asking men what is of God and valid for each individual? I used many of these examples when I was "in a box" and delivering a child and my heart was crying out to Him to keep me. Abba, Daddy, help me. Are some really put off by me calling the God of the universe Daddy? If so, you are missing out. I love my Dad; YHWH. Because of past experiences, I don't need confirmation from a human brain when I have Jesus in my heart to tell me what to do and say. I could care less of approval from humans when battling for my life. Believe me, human scrutiny is not there to Pharisaically approve of your actions and words. The Holy Spirit IS there to guide you and direct you into His deliverance. Only God knows a hearts sincere cry regardless of proper wording approval from people who admire their brains; Pharisees. Again, is it heart or head? My heavenly Dad loves to hear my cry. My cry might not be correct in mans's eyes, just like a child crying out to their dad, but He knows me. He knows my motives and my HEART'S cry. If you do not agree with my wording, sorry you are missing out due to being improper or vulnerable. Faith in action will never line up with any man. Faith in action, regardless of formulas, scrutiny, and wording is always valid with my heavenly Daddy. I will never be ashamed to know Him as Daddy. Sorry if some people can't understand the unconditional love involved with those dynamics. Abba...........I am jumping. I know you, Dad. You will catch me.
Gillyann, Somehow I've missed your point, this isn't unheard of since I have observed others miss my point more than once, but to attempt to wade through this thread and explain what has been said would be hard, to say the least. BUT, if you'll remember Tom started back last year when he joined wanting everyone to give him a word definition of grace and faith. No one gave an acceptable answer(in his opinion) so he started a several month long endeavor to correct our theology. This was drawn out over a period of time and when everyone didn't shout "Praise The Lord, we've been wrong about faith and grace for 30 years..." he seemed offended and took on a persecution complex quoting scriptures that Jesus spoke as if he was in the position of Jesus being persecuted by us. Big deal, blah! blah! blah! This thread wasn't and isn't continued in order to teach 'new babes' about faith(except in Tom's perspective), it was to correct all of us who he thought was deceived by HEF/Kenyon/Hagin. There's tons of other sound Biblical commentary/posts/threads on this forum that point to Jesus and a relationship with Him. But remember also, this is a place for people to discuss freely and openly their convictions, and to allow their views to be picked apart and measured against what other brothers and sisters see as truth from God's Word...both looking back at the past , as well as seeing where we stand today, and where we are headed for tomorrow. This, for me, has been a very good thing! To your question about what to say to your grandchildren when they come over concerning faith??? By your testimony I'd say you KNOW what to tell them...but if you really want my input, I'd say...Trust in The Lord [Jesus Christ] with ALL thy (their) heart and lean NOT unto thy (my/their) own understanding. In ALL thy ways look ONLY unto Him, and He will always direct/protect/save/deliver/heal... you/them/me/anyone who will believe. As for pretending to be in the situation you described, I can't even imagine...but we all have set before us trials and tribulations, each one is different and designed for us to bring us into that place of TOTAL TRUST IN HIM AND HIM ALONE...By what you've shared, I'd conclude it has. How you address God is between you and Him, because only you and Him know the motive/desire/purpose of your cry.
Gillyann, Consider this perspective. Each person reacts to the failure of FA (and our own) in their own way. You in your way, me in mine, Tom in his. Do not be impatient as others work through their issues in their own way - the best way/only way they know how. ----------------- As I perceive Tom, he is the type of person who enjoys detailed theology. As such, for Tom, a post that analyzes and challenges our past beliefs is his way of working through his FA issues/baggage. It takes another person capable of detailed theology to have a chance to edify Tom. It is wrong for us to belittle those who enjoy detailed theology. Everyone is different. Accepting others as they are is an expression of love. As I perceive you, I believe you have dealt less with bookish theology and placed more emphasis upon sensing God in your heart. Others relate to God most in how music makes them feel His presence. Others in how the fellowship with other saints makes them feel. Others relate to how a church service makes them feel validated. Others in how hours of prayer makes them feel God. --------------------- We cannot say our way of coping with our issues/baggage is right and other people's ways are wrong. Specifically, Tom's way of posting is completely right and on point for him. He has mistakes, but that is a good thing. By interacting with others he can be challenged and compare/align himself to the Word - something that would never happen if there were no other bookish, theology types for him to interact with. ---------------------------- As to how to describe things to your grandkids - you should describe things in the best way that you understand them. Your way is the right way for you - and the most effective. If by chance one of the grandkid's mind is made up such that he/she needs bookish theology to maintain belief as they grow up, then your ability to influence them will diminish ("Grandma says so" will not be enough for most teenagers) , and then you will be glad there are detailed theology materials available. Jman
James, I see what your are saying. The thing is if someone is distorting something in the Bible I don't think its just another view that we learn to tolerate. The Bible says many will turn from the truth and believe the lie, God will send them a strong delusion. When someone strays from the truth and then tries to explain it away it is total religious error. I do not see Tom's post as some great theology, rather it is a twisting of the Word of God. The whole post is a contradiction to the truth found in the Bible. Sadly many cannot discern error from truth in these last days. Gary
Very interesting feedback. I understand the purpose of OO. This site is for discussing both meat and milk. I am not getting into my background where theology is concerned. I will just say that I have no problem understanding or keeping up around here. Sometimes I can even figure out a response! God is spirit. We have spirits that relate to Him. I think our brains (souls) are on overload with this thread. If you guys want to entertain it, Ok. I will not. My kids and grandkids learn from example. I have tried to show them how to walk in faith. Living examples are always better after having explained scripture. In the end, I agree with Gary. I see nothing but confusion being manifested and it is being entertained. I hold no animosity. It is what it is. JMHO
Also, after what I have been through, I will not be manipulated, either. I am not saying it is intentional. But, waiting on baited breath for "The Revelation" is not my idea of good and spiritually healthy conversation. HEF never did that. He just laid it out there. It was very simple. Simple stuff for simple minds. Yep, that's me!
"The words that I have spoken to you, they are spirit and they are life." John 6:63 It is Spirit to our spirit. All of this acedamia is futile unless it is anointed in order to minister to our spirits. Debates are good as long as they are not born out of the flesh. Anointing is pretty simple. Does it minister to your spirit, or does it cause more havoc within your spirit? Again, JMHO.
Quote: My kids and grandkids learn from example. I have tried to show them how to walk in faith. Living examples are always better after having explained scripture. When I was a child I only remember those who called themselves Christians were very "Kind, gentle, and meek" They were very giving people and they radiated the joy. At the time I did not understand what it was that made them different and it was not till years later I understood when I met the Lord. GWB to be honest here I'm still learning and I enjoy the fellowship here with like minded believers. I don't understand when people who profess to be Christians spend endless hours trying to explain away the Bible. It is written to the simple and those who are childlike for such is the Kingdom of God. If God says it then its final and I believe it. The world tries to make it complicated then they use the intellect to make it confusing. Hebrews 11:1 says faith is the substance, that is self explanatory and the rest of the chapter tells what the author is saying. I use to meditate on this scripture for hours on end. I would keep thinking about it to try and understand what is faith. I have found you cannot figure out some things in your mind. If the Bible says faith is the substance then I just believe it is and know that the things I hope for will be manifested in due time. Why because God said it will. Did you know that some Christians are now dividing the Bible up and saying somethings are written by men and it has many contradictions? I don't believe this that it is the word of men, the Bible is God breathed and the Lord put in it what He wants us to know. It tells us that in the last days there is going to be a lot of deception and delusion and much confusion in the last days. The Word of God is the lamp to our feet and the light to our path that will keep us in the Will of God. Jesus said those who have faith will hear and understand, and will believe His words. Gary