I have a buddy who approached me about the validity of the Lakeland, Florida/Todd Bentley 'Revival' back in April of 2008 (he wanted to go to it) and that resulted in the thread by that name and much research went into it. It also drew quite a bit of interest and discussion. Well now he has decided (through the influence of someone 'teaching the real truth' on TBN) that there are two gospels taught in the New Testament. His understanding is that Jesus taught one gospel (the gospel of the kingdom Matt.24:14, which he now believes is 'law', requiring 'works'<repentance and baptism>); and Paul taught another gospel (the gospel grace Acts 20:24 which he's been convinced that is what we're to follow<nothing for us to do but confess and believe> and he uses II Corinthians 11:4 as proof text that Pauls gospel is the only one for true believers to follow.) Seems like people are looking for ways to live as they choose and still convience themselves they are following God. Now Paul's 'gospel' is being thought to be different from the gospel Jesus taught, and that Jesus taught legalism and works (he says Jesus was only speaking to the Jews and isn't for the 'church' today). Romans 7 is used to defend continually sinning because 'Paul' struggled with sin and 'he' made it in. Ever since I met this man I've tried to get him to study God's Word and quit taking these T.V. preachers word for everything. I'm going to meet with him this Sunday and share with him, but since the 'gospel of grace' (as defined by these false teachers) is so much easier than the Gospel Jesus taught (repentance...obedience...Holiness...) I know it'll be by God's GRACE that he'll receive it. Just in case anyone might think I'm against grace and think I'm saved by works (by keeping the law), I'm NOT. I, as much as anyone alive, know that it is by God's awesome GRACE that I'm saved...but I also know that I have a responsibility to walk as He has given instructions for us to walk, to daily contend for the faith, to put on the armour of God, to resist the devil, to be holy as He is Holy...Opps! I believe Paul might have written some of those instructions...guess that's part of the new gospel of 'hyper-grace', pick and choose what to apply to daily life and what to ignore. I'm sure there's much more to be said or pointed out (I hadn't even heard that this was a popular teaching sweeping through christendom until he told me this and I did some searching around...) Man, some of these people are so deceived it'll only be by GRACE for them to see the truth. GOSPEL, the good news...It is ALL the same gospel, God loves us, He sent His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. He was without sin, spotless, pure, and holy; He suffered and died on the cross and was resurrected from the dead. He is in heaven seated at the right hand of The Father, He is coming against to receive His Bride (those who have believed the good news<gospel> and are His). Now THAT IS good news!
I battle condemnation all of the time. I can't imagine picking up the works mentality on top of that! He is showing me about a walk of grace more and more. So thankful that, "It is finished." and that He did it all for me.
GWB wrote on Fri, 08 March 2013 19:02 I can't imagine picking up the works mentality on top of that! The admonishment by Jude to "...earnestly contend for the faith..." (Jude 3) comes to mind as well as "...studying to shew thyself approved unto God...rightly dividing the Word of Truth." (II Tim.2:15) There has always been within the nature of a man who is seeking to please God the mindset that 'works' are involved in the salvation process. The Word clearly shows us that we are saved by GRACE through FAITH alone, and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God. (Eph.2:8) Peter got caught up in works mentality when instructing the Gentiles to live as the Jews lived, plus he was being a hypocrite by eating with the Gentiles when there weren't any Jews around and then withdrawing and separating himself from them when those of the circumcision came in.(Gal.2:11-21) I am seeing more and more the importance of allowing The Holy Spirit to reveal God's Word to us. People can take scripture and 'prove' almost any doctrine or belief. The 'letter' of The Word can be legalistic and bring death, but the Spirit giveth life.(II Corinthians 3:6) A person 'can' find a bunch of 'gospels' in the NT if the aren't lead by The Spirit in understanding the truth and understanding how they are all one message. There's the gospel of the Kingdom, gospel of circumcision, gospel of uncircumcision, gospel of grace, the gospel of God, another gospel, the everlasting gospel... But what happens way too often is that man, in fleeing from the 'works' mentality and embracing the long neglected message of grace, allows themselves to be deceived into thinking that nothing is required of us and God no longer judges sin, not true. Salvation is of Grace and grace alone, no work can save anyone...BUT after salvation there will be 'works/fruit', not self-righteous, self-saving works; but works of righteousness (holiness, purity, loving actions, renewed mind,) remember what Jesus said after He had taught the truths found in Matthew 5-7 we call the B-additudes or Sermon of the Mount? He said, "whosoever heareth these sayings of mine,AND DOETH THEM...is a wise man"
I think in Titus 3:5&8 we can see grace and works in the right context: verse 5 points out clearly that salvation is by God's grace and mercy, NOT by works which we have done, or will do. And then in verse 8 Paul goes on to say that those who have believed should maintain good works. Good works are a result of salvation, NOT the other way around, salvation being a results of good works. Praise The Lord for the grace and mercy He has given us, the sacrifice of Himself...to restore us unto fellowship with God. Thank You Jesus, thank You Father, thank You Holy Spirit. Hallelujah!!! Yes, Gillyann, He did indeed do it ALL for us.
More thoughts on two gospels... In searching out what The Word teaches on 'THE GOSPEL' I see also two baptisms (water, not speaking of Baptism of The Holy Ghost,yet...) mentioned. In Acts 18:24-25 Apollos knew only of the baptism of John (the baptism of repentance) and Aquila and Priscilla shared with him concerning believing through Grace.(Acts 18:26-27) Then, we see Paul asking those believers at Ephesus if they had received The Holy Ghost since becoming believers. They replied they hadn't even heard about The Holy Ghost. Paul asked unto what baptism were they baptized, and they too answered, "unto John's baptism". Paul taught them concerning Jesus Christ and the grace offered and they were baptized in The Name of Jesus Christ. Then they received The Holy Ghost. (Acts 19:1-6) Note: Remember how when Peter was preaching to Cornelius and his family and The Holy Ghost fell on them and they began to speak with tongues and magnify God? This was before they were baptized with water. (Acts 10:34-48) So much for man taking scripture and forming doctrines without looking at the whole of Scripture. When Peter proclaimed in verse 34 that "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons..." he could have also have perceived that God's salvation 'plan' for individuals(salvation/infilling of The Holy Spirit/baptism by water) doesn't have to follow in the same sequence every time. Just as how He choses to reveal Himself to those chosen by Him unto salvation, convict them of sin, and open their eyes unto His Grace and Love, is His business.
Good stuff, James! You must have a teaching job somewhere because that gift is becoming more and more evident in your posts... or maybe it's because you've 'waited' long enough!<grin> -- Romans 12:6-7 Blessings, William
Praise The Lord, I don't know about a 'teacher', but whatever The Lord has I'm trusting He will reveal in His perfect time. I remind myself at times that Moses was 80 years old before God really started using him, but then we don't know the details of his preparation and what tending sheep was really doing in his character...maybe working humility, since he had been raised as the son of Pharaoh's daughter; and as Hebrews 11 tells us, faith. It seems many people like to 'cherry-pick ' scriptures and build a belief system on them while ignoring other scriptures that clearly show that there's more wisdom/instruction/teaching involved or God wouldn't have spoken it. Some are saying repentance isn't part of salvation because it involves works, and Grace is only believing. Resulting in what is becoming an ever increasing problem in Christendom, hypergrace...And from the ignoring of scriptures that plainly teach those who are born-again bring forth fruit of repentance. Yet Paul throughout the Epistles teaches repentance, holiness, and "studying" The Word in order to rightly divide It.(II Tim.2:15) Paul says that he taught both(repentance and faith/believing)..."Testifying both to the Jews, and to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21 I was meditating on the B-additudes and what the character of a person who had sought God to work these attributes within them would look like. There probably was a time when I was pleased with myself for just remembering them; then the rewards that came with them; lately when I think about them, and I do quite often, I hardly even think of the results (kingdom of heaven, being comforted,inheriting the earth, being called the children of God, ect.) I just want to BE poor in spirit, meek, a peacemaker, pure in heart, to hunger and thirst after righteousness, to mourn, merciful...yes and even to respond with joy and gladness when persecuted for rightousness sake. I read somewhere that Matthew 5,6,7 are just works that were for the Jews, part of the 'other gospel' which Jesus taught. That grace rested alone in faith and those works Jesus spoke about didn't apply to 'the church' who was saved by Paul's gospel of grace. I fear for those who have bought into these teachings(btw: Paul had something to say about people preaching any other gospel...as did Jesus about false teachers) for the purpose of avoiding obeying The Word of God, of taking up the cross, of walking in holiness, and living by faith. Jude mentions men creeping into the church/body who "...turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
Very good, James. The abuse of grace is, in many cases, due to the lack of proper teaching. Walking in the abuse of grace = carnal Christian. It is very dangerous to walk this way and allow yourself to be deceived because one does not want to give their all to God. It opens doors. How far those doors open and to what they could open to is frightening. It takes your authority and power away. Just do your best to hear His voice and obey. It will save you much heartache and having to believe for restoration on the other side of your fun and love of this world.
In my day to day living I continue to encounter people who profess Christ and yet are totally deceived by this teaching of false grace. They've bought into what's popular and 'easy'; every sin is 'under the blood' and God doesn't expect people today to be able to walk as Jesus walked. Obedience to what is written in the NT is just like obedience to what is written in the OT, done away with at the cross. Yet everytime I share scriptures that prove the very opposite, the conversation dies a quick death. "And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him;" Hebrews 5:9 We're told in II Thessalonians 1:6-9 That God is going to take vengeance on those who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Saving salvation IS by GRACE [through faith], it's a gift given by God (Eph.2:8) unearnable by ourselves or our works. But also we're told by Jesus' half brother James, that faith without works is dead faith.(James 2:20) Now if a mans faith is dead, then how can he believe that he's saved? Obedience is proof of our love,(I John 2:3-6) Keeping His commandments/sayings/instructions/Words is an extention of our love for Him...A person who is really born-again will seek to follow Him as closely as possible(yes, we DO sin, and when we do He is our propitiation and advocate before God our Father...we confess, and repent[turn away from] and diligently seek to overcome those sins in the future) not look for scripture to take out of context or preachers that will offer false assurance that allow one to continue living as the world believing their salvation is procured by just some words they repeated without any life changes. Take up your cross and follow me, (Luke 9:23) has no meaning in the life of these who have been so deceived by this false gospel. I'm in no way implying that I have arived or that I don't fail in daily application of walking the crucified life we're called to, but I do know which path I'm supposed to be on, and it's strait and narrow, and requires my full attention with actions; not a 8 lane super highway that doesn't ask anything of a man except words.
Hello to everyone, I'm new around here. Just want to say a big amen to what is being said about the true gospel here and add my two cents....that if there is no Godly sorrow, no repentance, no fear of God, or fighting the good fight of faith, then grace will not be received because grace can only be received by those who need it. Jesus came for those who know they are sick and know they need a "doctor". The blind are leading the blind into a big ditch, very perilous days we are living in, and only a remnant will be spared the spiritual carnage that is happening all throughout the apostate church. Thanks you for contending for the pure gospel, blessing to you all!
Another comment on the "Two Gospels" or "Hyper-Grace". I was reading the comment section of a man's blog that was discussing signs of 'Hyper-Grace' being taught in today's churches and someone made this statement: "If you say you have met Jesus and your life hasn't changed, then you only met Him in passing. Turn around and follow Him. True Grace will call you to surrender all and follow Him, not just get a ticket to heaven and continue to live like hell."and concerning repentance being called works by some, he says: "Repentance doesn't mean 'to earn', but 'to turn'." Amen, may God grant us grace not only to hear His Word, but to be DOERS of His Word.
Hi Therese, A big welcome & am looking forward to your comments. I too am pretty new but the group have made me feel welcome. It is challenging to work through what we believe but rewarding also as each have God`s wisdom to share. All the best....
Here's another gospel being preached: Google John Hagee Jesus is not the messiah. Click on 60 second video of John Hagee, declaring this new gospel. I could not provide the link because it was blocked from being posted. Jesus is not the Messiah? What's next? Gary
God's mercy and grace continues to amaze me as I grow in understanding of that mercy and grace. Ever since I was confronted with fact that people are taking God's Word and distorting it through various ways,(such as dividing up the NT into what Jesus taught verses what Paul taught) I have been seeking wisdom in how to both understand for myself beter, as well as how to effectually present, The Gospel. I've read several books lately that are helpful in grasping what the true Gospel is and The Holy Spirit has been bringing to my attention as I read and study The Word places in Scripture where The Gospel and Grace is revealed. I've about came to the conclussion that grace is displayed from cover to cover of The Bible and that God is The Gospel. We know that the Greek word used in the NT for gospel means "GOOD NEWS" and that grace means God's unmerited favor towards man, manifested in salvation offered to sinful man through Jesus Christ. So I see the "good news" being declared in Genesis 1:1 as well as in Acts 14:15 when Paul is preaching [presenting] the good news [gospel]. God is the Gospel [the good news], His plan of reconcilliation for man through the sacrifice of Jesus is a display of GRACE. That He has made a way for us to enter into fellowship with Him for all eterenity is the message of The Bible. From beginning until the end God is revealing Himself; His Grace, Mercy, and Love is shown throughout scripture and the promise of redemption was the hope of the OT, the coming King, Messiah, to restore Israel to God...that they might "Behold your GOD" Isaiah 40:9 God's purpose in redeeming man wasn't so 'we wouldn't go to hell', or in order for us to receive all kind of material blessings on this earth, or even to become 'good people'...it was to restore us to fellowship with Him, so we could enjoy Him forever, to worship and praise Him...To Behold our God. There are many benefits of salvation and each and every one are wonderful beyond my ability to describe them. but until a sinner is restored to fellowship with God through Christs' sacrifice there can be no fellowship. Our sins had separated us from fellowship with God, Jesus' work at Calvary paid our debt, the debt we couldn't pay...freely, that's Grace, that The Gospel, that's Good News, that's what God offers.....so He can once more be Father to His creation in fellowship, forever.
I continue to be confronted by the view that there are two different gospels being presented in the NT, one by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the twelve that was to the Jews(Gospel of the Kingdom). Then the gospel revealed unto Paul that was taught unto the Gentiles (Gospel of Grace). I came across this teaching by Matthew McGee on "Israel's Kingdom Gospel and Our Grace Gospel". If anyone takes the time to read it I'd appreciate any comments and thoughts. http://www.matthewmcgee.org/2gospels.html
I thought I would give it a quick read it and then comment. Then I saw it was hundred pages long. anyway I'm going to start reading it tonight and see how far I get. You know where he is going to end up though when (speaking of the reformation) he has this in the first paragraph. In any case, not one of the hundreds of denominations or sects has ever made it back to the pure doctrine of the early church. Perhaps I should not use the word "pure", since we can see from Galatians 3 and 1 Corinthians 5 that errant doctrine was creeping into some local churches even at that early date.
Eph 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
It looks as though one error has led to further error: a little leaven has grown and waxed into a complete heresy. The over-emphasis of the Jewish Roots movement seems to be what has given rise to this 2 gospel idea. But the scripture says..."THE gospel is to the Jew first and then the Gentile...". Clearly there is only one gospel that is both for Jew and Gentile alike. And that is the one and same gospel that John the Baptist prepared the way for, and which Jesus gave us...coming first to His own but His own received Him not and so this same gospel defaulted as it were, to the Gentiles....all in the plan and foreknowledge of God, in keeping with where it speaks of the mystery that He has bound all men over to disobedience that He might have mercy on them all.
That's right Therese. The Lamb of God who was "...slain from the foundation of the world" was and has always been the foundation of all that God has revealed to us. I've just started reading the link James provided and I'm surprised that someone can pull these selected passages to make it seem like there is no unified purpose of God. Isa 53 certainly was there for the Israelite to ponder. I agree that they didn't understand it all --even John the Baptist was a little unsettled when he couldn't seem to grasp that Jesus was BOTH the suffering servant AND the King of Kings! Jesus spent considerable time BEFORE He died telling his disciples what was coming but the hardness of their hearts kept them from embracing the truth. I think things finally began to dawn on them when He met with the two on the road to Emmaus and said: "O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?" He then taught them "...beginning at Moses and all the prophets" the things concerning Himself. Luk 24:27 I think this included even the Genesis account since Moses was the one who penned it. In other words I think Jesus gave them an overview of the whole of revelation up to that point. We certainly don't have any excuse for not seeing it! Blessings, William
james wrote on Mon, 23 November 2015 16:57 I continue to be confronted by the view that there are two different gospels being presented in the NT, one by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the twelve that was to the Jews(Gospel of the Kingdom). Then the gospel revealed unto Paul that was taught unto the Gentiles (Gospel of Grace). I came across this teaching by Matthew McGee on "Israel's Kingdom Gospel and Our Grace Gospel". If anyone takes the time to read it I'd appreciate any comments and thoughts. http://www.matthewmcgee.org/2gospels.html James, I think if nothing else the guy is heavily deluded. I did not read the whole post, but enough to agree that this man is part of the Jewish roots movement. The teachings of the Apostle Peter and the teachings of the Apostle Paul do not contradict one another they compliment one another. There's not ten different gospels, the Apostles are giving us their account of what they saw and witnessed. Paul persecuted the church (Jewish believers), but was later called to carry the same message to the gentiles. Jew and Gentiles are saved because of the shedding of blood at the cross. The Lamb of God was the sacrifice for all mankind, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. At this point in history the Jews have been blinded to the Gospel because they rejected their Messiah but one day God will open their eyes during the tribulation. That's not to say some will not be saved in this day and age, because some are called to salvation. Jesus is the Lamb there is no other sacrifice or way into heaven except through Jesus and His teaching. I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father except through me. Gary
When I read the stuff Matthew McGee wrote yesterday I wasn't aware that he was a disciple of Les Feldick, but upon further research today I see that he is. Now I see the connection because the 'buddy' of mine that believes in the two gospel teaching is a follower of Les Feldick(he has literally hundreds of hours of Feldick's teaching recorded on TV plus books). I started this thread due to conversations I've had over the last several years with my friend about this two gospel message and his insistence of following Paul and pretty much disregarding the teachings of Jesus. I have watched a few of Les Feldick's teachings before and he is a detailed teacher, verse by verse, yet I believe he is deceived and is deceiving others with this dual gospel and ignoring (or placing less value) on the very words of Jesus due to believing they only applied to the Israelites of His day and not to the church(body of Christ). It seemed to me that Marilyn was of this same mindset based on some of her posts about the separation of Israel and The Body of Christ...if I am wrong Marilyn then feel free to correct me. update: This isn't a rant and rave against Les Feldick or Matthew McGee (or my buddy) or a personal attack against any person, but rather an attempt to expose a doctrine being taught to millions (even if many of us were unaware of it) around the world. Someone wrote me saying it's a demonic thing, I agree since it's a major deception and the deceiver of all deceivers is behind it seeking to deceive as many as possible. If you haven't came across someone holding to this then at least now you've heard and can have some background info in dealing with it. Here's a website that gives a brief covering of some of the false teachings Les Feldick is putting out...there may be more, like I said, I've only briefly viewed him and that was several years ago. And before someone might take me to task, I know nothing about the website "a true church" except what I'm providing a link to, so if they ain't perfect in their theology I'm unaware of it. http://atruechurch.info/feldick.html One other comment, Gary and Therese, I can't see any connection between McGee/Feldick and the 'Jewish Roots' movement; I've found nothing nor have I heard my buddy spouting anything linking them to that, but once again I sure don't know everything, and peoples website don't always reveal what all they believe. For anyone wanting to read another persons perspective or comments on what's going on in many churches today here's a blog by a guy named Jim Allen called Apostasy in the Church...part 8 covers the false two gospel teachings of Les Feldick. There are 8 parts and you can click on them at the end of each one. http://blogos.org/keepwatch/true-gospel.html
Hi James, Thank you for your interest in what I believe. Hope I can clarify it. Now I believe that Jesus (as part of the Godhead) wrote the whole Bible. 1. Thus `following Paul & pretty much disregarding the teachings of Jesus,` makes no sense to me. 2. Also `ignoring (or placing less value) on the very words of Jesus due to believing they only apply to the Israelites of His day & not to the church (body of Christ).` I believe all scripture is not only written by the Lord, but is written about Him. To disregard any part is to cut off one`s understanding of some aspect of Him & thus would lead one to be bereft. When Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father He wrote, by His Holy Spirit, Matthew, Mark, Luke & John to show a complete view in miniature of His earthly manifestation. Matthew – shows Christ as the kinsman, King. He is the `son of Abraham` & the `son of David.` (Matt. 1: 1) Mark – declares His Heirship. Jesus Christ is the `son of God,` (Mark 1: 1) with legal authority. Luke – presents the Mediatorship of the Son of Man. He is touched with the feelings of our infirmities. (Luke 5: 13 etc) John – pictures the Son of God / Deity & Maker. He is omnipotent in both power & purpose. (John 1: 3) Then the Lord Jesus Christ continues to reveal Himself & His purposes & by His Holy Spirit writes (through people) Acts – Jude, revealing Himself, Christ in His Body. Acts – ) Lord of All. Romans – 1 & 2 Corinthians – ) Sufficiency of Christ. Galatians – Ephesians – Philippians – ) Our Standing in Christ. Colossians – 1 & 2 Thessalonians – 1 & 2 Timothy – Titus – Philemon – Hebrews – ) The Indwelling Christ. James – 1 & 2 Peter – 1,2,3 John Jude – Finally the Book of revelation is the unveiling of Jesus Christ in all His heavenly glory. Vision 1 – Christ the Administrator. Vision 2 – Christ the Executor. Vision 3 – Christ the Mediator. Vision 4 – Christ the Adjudicator. The four visions of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realm carries to completion each aspect of the fourfold ministry which He exercised on earth. Thus we can see that each part of God`s word (the Old testament also) reveals some aspect of our precious Lord & His purposes for different groups. We read His word to learn of HIM, His character & His purposes. We, the Body of Christ are a part of the whole purpose. We are not to elevate ourselves as being the whole picture but always to exalt the Lord & what He has, is & will do. (My notes of part of the Bible are from the writings of Dr. C.J.Rolls, well known Bible teacher from the past century. If you would like what He wrote concerning Christ & the Old Testament I will post that too.) Marilyn.
Marilyn I'm not sure we're connecting here as to what I was referring to, but if you don't believe those teachings and if what you say about the separation of the church/body of Christ and Israel isn't along the same lines, then I take you at your word, sorry if I misunderstood. I still don't understand or agree with your presentation of third heavens/New Jerusalem...but as we've said before, you're entitled to share your views/opinions.
Hi James, I really do appreciate your approach of discussing & not dismissive, thank you bro. It takes a while to work through what we mean on posts. Also, we have to be careful we don`t lob each other into categories extreme left or right. My post was mainly about telling you that I believe God`s word, written by Jesus (& the Father & the Holy Spirit) is all about Him & His purposes.Thus said it does need more explanation in regard to your topic. I will try & give you an illustration so you can understand my thoughts. `There is a farmer who has 2 sons, Fred & George. Now the farmer tells George to go to the top paddock & move the heifers into a new field. George is told he needs to walk ahead of the heifers & show them where to go. The farmer encourages his son that he is good at handling the young heifers. Now Fred is listening to what his father is saying to his brother. Fred learns about his father, that he encourages his other son, & he learns about the farm & how it is run. Then the farmer tells Fred that he is to go to the bottom paddocks & rake the hay. First he is to check that the hay is not too dry. The farmer (father) also encourages this son, Fred in what he has been given to do. Thus we see both sons learn about the farmer (the father) that he appreciates them, & they learn not only what they are to do, but what each other is doing.` You can see that it is harvest time here on our farm. (lol) But I hope you can see what I am getting at. We read in Matthew that Jesus is specifically talking to the people of Israel. However we know that - `all scripture is given by inspiration of God, & is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.` (2 Tim. 3: 16 & 17) Thus we understand that all scripture is for us to learn from. However it is not all about us. That is the big difference. Jesus told the people of Israel specific things for them. We read about them & learn about Jesus, His character & His purposes, & about Godly behaviour. However we know that `George` has been told to go to the top paddock & work, & `Fred` has been told to go to the bottom paddock & work. All on the same farm & all doing the farmer`s work & all learning about the farmer. So specifically in regards to your question from Matthew 5,6 7 - `do you believe that the sermon on the mount/b-attitudes, how to pray, fast, treat others, etc are instructions to the Body of Christ today from Jesus in how to live?` I believe the Beatitudes were spoken by Jesus to the people of Israel expounding all the commandments from the Old Testament focussing on the heart attitude & not just the `letter of the law.` And because these words are now written down for us, we can learn from them. I`ll write a few specifics in relation to what I learn - - That God is concerned with the heart & not just the outward act. (Matt. 5: 28) - That the Jews had to have a `righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees. As I can`t fulfil the law I am so pleased that now Christ is my righteousness. (1 Cor. 1: 30) This was something I had to read further in God`s word to fully understand & not just Matt. 5: 20. The Body of Christ has been given further understanding of Christ. - That Israel will have an inheritance on the earth (`the meek shall inherit the earth` 5: 5) as promised them in the Old Testament. I learn that God has still a purpose for this earth & people He will place there. Then I read more of what Jesus wrote, by His Holy Spirit. & see that the Body of Christ is given a different area in God`s great kingdom. Our `inheritance, hope, calling & citizenship,` is all in heaven. (1 Peter 1: 4, Col. 1: 5, Heb. 3: 1, Phil. 3: 20) - That `how to pray, fast, treat others, etc are instructions to the Body of Christ today from Jesus in how to live.` Yet taking in to account the Lord`s instruction – `Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15) And since we have all the words of truth from Jesus our Lord then we need to take all those words & look at them carefully. So reading `how to pray, fast etc...` needs to be received in the light of – `Walk in the Spirit, & you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh....if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law......restoring another in the spirit of gentleness....etc (Gal. 5: 16, 18. 6: 1...) The people of Israel did not have the Holy Spirit within them & so had to walk carefully according to the law but paying attention to their motives. We in the Body of Christ, now have received Christ`s Holy Spirit whom if we walk by the Spirit we will be enabled to live with Christ`s heart. Hope these are some examples of what it means to me to read Jesus` words in Matt. 5 etc & Jesus` words in His further writings. Marilyn.
We must be so careful of the carnal mind of man (intellect)- it is enmity with God and cannot perceive the things of the Spirit, we must see and understand His word with the mind of Christ and allow His Spirit alone to give us light. That's why I haven't been led to read any book but the bible for many years. Only the word of God by His Spirit has power to renew our minds to His truth and cast down imaginations of the human intellect and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.
Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 24 November 2015 16:54 Thus we understand that all scripture is for us to learn from. However it is not all about us. That is the big difference. Jesus told the people of Israel specific things for them. We read about them & learn about Jesus, His character & His purposes, & about Godly behaviour. Thanks for laying it out so even a caveman can understand (or should I say an Alabama country boy living in America...lol) I most certainly agree that it is not all about us, I hope I haven't came across as one who does think that. And I do think that It (God's Word) was written to us for learning...but also obeying...and yep, within ourselves we can't obey anything...but with The Holy Spirit renewing our minds and hearts, we can. (or else He wouldn't have instructed us to....live holy, die to self, exercise faith, ect.) Enjoy your turkey...or do Aussies celebrate Thanksgiving? If not I'm sure you're thankful anyway...
Hi James, Trevor wants to know `Where abouts in Alabama is your cave? (lol) I`m just very thankful that you have taken the time to engage in a worthwhile discussion that has led us to understand each other a bit more. Always good when brothers & sisters encourage each other. And no, we don`t have a thanksgiving celebration day in Australia. What is that celebration for? Of course I try to be `thankful` every day for the Lord - what He has, is & will do. Blessings, Marilyn.
Hi Therese, Good to hear you uplifting comments. Yes I also mainly keep to God`s word. It is so precious & goes right to the heart of the matter. I do however like to sometimes read Dr. Charles James Rolls 5 books on the names & titles of our Lord. They are out of print but I was able to get the whole set through different second hand book dealers on line. The depth of his understanding of our Lord`s character & titles has really enlarged my appreciation of the Lord. I may start a thread sometime in relation to that as it so exalts the Lord. I see that Christianity has gone through a time of `my giftings,` `my dreams,` etc, all about `me, myself & I` whereas we grow by looking to the Lord & growing in the knowledge of Him, as Eph. 4: 13 tells us. `till we all come to the unity of the faith & the knowledge of the Son of God,....`(Eph. 4: 13) Blessings, Marilyn.
Hi Marilyn, and everyone.........unfortunately Christianity has gone off the rails, and we seem to be in the time of the falling away that is spoken of in 2 Thessalonians. Perilous times and the pitfalls are everywhere, and we have to realize that it all started out as only a little leaven, so that is why I read only the bible since it is the only pure word there is. The church/ekklesia/Body of Christ/New Jerusalem/Israel of God is nothing less than the mystery of God from the foundation of the world.....so I do believe it is all about us since we are Christ's Body, meaning it really is all about Him......and His Body/Bride is going to rule and reign with Him one day soon, so yes we (the church of Jew and Gentile believers) matter a lot in the plan and purposes of God. His express intention was to make one new man out of the two.........so I am not sure I understand where you are coming from Marilyn where you speak about the two having different tasks or callings.....would you mind elaborating? I'm completely baffled as to where in scripture that could have come from. (Please bear with me the next couple of days in case I am slow in responding.) Bless you all.
Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 25 November 2015 17:48 Hi James, Trevor wants to know `Where abouts in Alabama is your cave? (lol) I`m just very thankful that you have taken the time to engage in a worthwhile discussion that has led us to understand each other a bit more. Always good when brothers & sisters encourage each other. And no, we don`t have a thanksgiving celebration day in Australia. What is that celebration for? Of course I try to be `thankful` every day for the Lord - what He has, is & will do. Blessings, Marilyn. I can't divulge the info on my cave, it might start getting cramped if too many folks knew about it...lol 'Caveman' comes from a TV ad for insurance (Geico, I think......I know, only in America) The Thanksgiving holiday in America goes back to the pilgrims coming to America and the Native Americans feeding them and their thankfulness to God for freedom to worship freely and surviving the harsh winter. At least that's what comes to mind without checking in with Google (the source of all knowledge). I'm not big on 'holidays', especially those rooted in pagan practices...but I am 'thankful' and will have a meal with family members, fellowship and eat turkey with the works...maybe watch a football game or take a walk if I happen to eat too much...lol I used to always have a steak with baked sweet potato, but I now have family living close by and can visit with them. Family is definitely something to be thankful for.
Hi james, Thank you for the info. I sort of thought that it was about the pilgrim fathers, but didn`t know about the native people helping. So glad you have family nearby now. Trevor has a large family with 5 brothers & some on farms nearby, so they can help each other. I don`t have family near (parents have gone to glory) so I appreciate my `sisters in the Lord` & visit them & sometimes stay for a few days. We are a blessed people, Marilyn.
Hi Therese, Thank you for your interest. And please no need to hurry with reply, take your time as we all have other responsibilities. Now you asked - Quote: `.......so I am not sure I understand where you are coming from Marilyn where you speak about the two having different tasks or callings.....would you mind elaborating? I'm completely baffled as to where in scripture that could have come from. There are many scriptures that I see that refer to God having a purpose for Israel & a purpose for the Body of Christ. I`ll just give a few. `I will betroth you to me for ever; Yes, will betroth you to me in righteousness & justice, in lovingkindness & mercy; I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, & you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 19) `For behold, in those days & at that time when I bring back the captives of Judah & Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, & bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat; & I will enter into judgment with them there on account of my people, my heritage Israel,....` (Joel 3: 1 & 2) Then when the Lord returns to the Mount of Olives & deals with the world`s armies, He then goes over the valley of Jehoshaphat to enter Jerusalem. He goes to Judah first, then the house of David & finally to the people of Jerusalem. `The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David & the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; ...it shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour on the house of David & on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace & supplication; then they will look on me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for him as one mourns for his only son, & grieve for him as one grieves for a first-born.` (Zech. 12: 7 - 10) `For I do not desire brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, & so all Israel will be saved,...` (Rom. 11: 25 & 26) What do you think of these scriptures? Looking forward to your reply. Marilyn.
Hi Marilyn.........sorry for the delay in answering, and I will do my best to put forth my understanding of the scripture. A Jew is a Jew if he is one inwardly.......that said, I believe the nation of Jewish people are loved on account of the patriarchs, and that the whole nation of Israel who are still alive will have their blindness removed at the end or near the end, and enter the kingdom of God through the same gospel of Christ by which we all enter. The promises of God are for both the believing Jew and Gentile which together make up the Israel of God, the one new man, New Jerusalem, Bride of who?.....of Christ. The promises are fulfilled in Christ and by no other way. This means that the bottom line does not change.......how can they believe except they hear, and how can they hear except it be preached and how can it be preached except some be sent. And what is it that must be preached.......of course, it is the gospel for no man can come to the Father except by Me, said Jesus, neither Jew nor Gentile. Well, praise the Lord, I had no idea how I was going to say all that, how it all fit together, my mind is not what it used to be and here it all came out in one little paragraph, thank you Father. Is that also how you see it Marilyn..?..or maybe in principal with some modifications..? I am not sure of the exact timing. The Lord bless you all.
Hi Therese, I think you have summed it up very well. This part especially is so true - Quote: `The promises are fulfilled in Christ and by no other way. This means that the bottom line does not change.......how can they believe except they hear, and how can they hear except it be preached and how can it be preached except some be sent. And what is it that must be preached.......of course, it is the gospel for no man can come to the Father except by Me, said Jesus, neither Jew nor Gentile. Thank you for your reply, & God bless. Have a good day. Marilyn.
Amen Marilyn, bless you. Hope it makes sense to the others as well. There has been a lot of confusion about the Jewish people in general and God's intentions regarding them. He has thankfully been helping me to get sorted out on this issue, little by little, by His grace.
Therese wrote on Sun, 29 November 2015 08:57 A Jew is a Jew if he is one inwardly.......that said, I believe the nation of Jewish people are loved on account of the patriarchs, and that the whole nation of Israel who are still alive will have their blindness removed at the end or near the end, and enter the kingdom of God through the same gospel of Christ by which we all enter. The promises of God are for both the believing Jew and Gentile which together make up the Israel of God, the one new man, New Jerusalem, Bride of who?.....of Christ. The promises are fulfilled in Christ and by no other way. This means that the bottom line does not change.......how can they believe except they hear, and how can they hear except it be preached and how can it be preached except some be sent. And what is it that must be preached.......of course, it is the gospel for no man can come to the Father except by Me, said Jesus, neither Jew nor Gentile. Therese, you have summed it up very well, it is Jesus and Jesus alone and in Him we are all His, both Jew and Gentile, saved by Grace through faith.
I still encounter people who like to divide the scriptures into what Jesus said to the Jews and what Paul said to the Gentiles and justify ignoring both commandments (instructions) and blessings given to believers. It's obvious when reading scripture that often it was Jews that Jesus was addressing as well as it's obvious that Paul was speaking to Gentiles in many places in the NT. Context is important when reading God's Word, I agree; but it's even more important to discern the Spirit of the Word and not just the letter. Peter, when addressing Jews in the first several chapters of Acts was preaching to Jewish people (example, chapter two and verse twenty-two..."Ye men of Israel, hear these words..."). Then when God had healed the lame man through Peter and John, Peter used that opportunity to proclaim to those listening (Jews in the temple) concerning Jesus Christ. Chapter three ends with this statement..."Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." So did God, through Jesus, only turn away the sins and iniquities of those Jews listening to Peter that day; or has He turned each and every one of us who has received of this truth away from our sins? Yes to them first was The Lord revealed but as Peter found out later when going to Caesarea and meeting with Cornelius, (Acts 10:34) God is not a respecter of persons but in every nation all that fear Him and works righteousness is accepted with Him. Nutshell? "...that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."