3 Questions: 1. If you believe God is the one who sets whomsoever he wills into office: Dan4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. Dan4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. Dan5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will. Rom13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. If you believe these things, are you resisting the will of God when you vote for someone who ultimately loses the election? 2. If you don't believe that it is God who sets rulers into positions of power (review the scriptures listed above) then presumably you believe that it is left up to us to choose these leaders, right? If this is the case, and your candidate wins, then you no doubt will rejoice that God's will was done through your vote, right? Given the options (and I make an assumption here) if a Mormon wins then it is up to you to support this man with every ounce of your being. How is this compatible with the scriptural admonishment to not support someone that doesn't believe the fundamental Christian doctrine concerning the deity of our Lord and Savior -- Jesus Christ? 3. If a Church or a pastor believes that a Mormon (or a pro-abortion candidate) is God's choice for us, pray tell why is it that few if any of these Churches or their pastors will actually stand up for what they believe and tell the sheep who it is that God has chosen? Why won't they tell us who we need to vote for? (They certainly don't hesitate to tell us how to live our lives and where we should be giving our money!) Why don't they stand up for what they believe and say boldly from the pulpit that we should vote for this or that candidate? One prominent leader recently gave a 'prophecy' and I assumed that he was going to have the guts to do just that but after listening to his words I was disappointed to hear that his so-called prophecy was nothing but hot-air. He told us that we were going to 'like' the outcome of the election. (He really goes out on a limb there...) He continued with the usual rot (manipulation) by telling the sheep that if they didn't like the outcome they had better get on their faces before God until they did like the choice. Wow! Such wisdom! Zec11:17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. Hos9:7 The days of visitation are come, the days of recompence are come; Israel shall know it: the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred. Eccl10:12 The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself. Eccl10:13 The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness. Eccl10:14 A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him? Prv18:7 A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul. Prv14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge. Blessings, William
The question is do Christians use the Bible to make laws for fellow Christians by quoting OT passages. No where is voting mentioned in scripture so can we as Christians say it is sin or wrong to do something that the Bible is silent on. Can we then fabricate a doctrine that does not exist in plain language? Times change and many want to bring laws into churches that all must follow to show they are of one mind and one accord and being obedient to its teaching that they say exist. But many will obey their church laws and overlook certain areas in their lives that the scriptures do mention. Look at church history this practice prevails in every denomination and even in modern day charismatic churches. Every group has a set of laws that they feel they must obey to prove obedience to Christ. I remember HF stating he would not cross the street to give us his opinion. But then he turns around and pulls the divorce and remarriage tapes. If the Lord gave him those messages why pull them off the shelf and change the message? No I am not anti-Freeman but I am willing to take the Bible at face value and see what does it say and "does not say". If a man chooses to vote does this make him a sinner? If a man chooses to vote does this mean he will lose salvation? I think Christianity is based on morality, abstaining from the occult, and choosing to serve God in worship and truth. Anyway that's my two cents worth.
I know you are right, William. I really do understand what you are saying. I am just concerned that we flee from "those that do abominations" so much so, that we are useless for sharing the Gospel. We keep ourselves clean, alright! OK, don't vote due to having blood on your hands. I know the teachings. I also know we were told not to wear reading glasses or you don’t have the faith it takes to be healed and be a “real” Overcomer. Let’s be real, here. Do some people really think it is OK to smoke a cigar? Would you smoke a cigar with Jesus? Would people actually sit down and have a beer with Jesus and get a buzz on? I have seen all of that on OO and more. We ALL have things in our lives that have been so called “compromised” since FA. I can see where voting could be one of them. Some take vitamans and drink herbal tea , some wear pants, , some cut their hair, and on and on. Is anyone out there still believing for a drivers license without glasses? Is anyone in debt with a mortgage so they can have their own home? Does anyone even use a band-aid? It grieves my heart to still be lining everyone up like soldiers when, in reality, are we out soldiering for God and snatching people from hell? I don't know. Maybe it is just me. Thank God we compromised for computers so at least we can communicate these days. Prv14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge. The difference between love and compromise......sigh. I am desperate for revival. When and where we don’t eat with sinners is tantamount to saving souls. I choose to save souls. Am I wrong here? God knows I am not afraid of scrutiny. I also know that OO is not afraid to give that scrutiny either! BTW, I love OO and am thankful for it.
Voting equals sin? Is that what you think I said? All I'm asking is for a rational answer as to why the above philosophy is almost universally accepted in today's church. If you've got some answers that can shed some light upon it, I'd love to hear them! Blessings, William
Quote: I am just concerned that we flee from "those that do abominations" so much so, that we are useless for sharing the Gospel. We keep ourselves clean, alright! Okay, but I'm not fleeing from anybody. I'm just asking for a reasonable explanation that isn't full of inconsistent holes. Quote: OK, don't vote due to having blood on your hands. I know the teachings. I also know we were told not to wear reading glasses or you don’t have the faith it takes to be healed and be a “real” Overcomer. Let’s be real, here. Do some people really think it is OK to smoke a cigar? Would you smoke a cigar with Jesus? Would people actually sit down and have a beer with Jesus and get a buzz on? I have seen all of that on OO and more. We ALL have things in our lives that have been so called “compromised” since FA. I can see where voting could be one of them. Forget FA. I don't think that anyone here can accuse me of propagating man's opinions. I'm asking for the biblical rationale behind something that is being practiced in our Christian Churches. Vote, if you like... personally I couldn't care less if you do or don't and I'm certainly not telling you that if you do you are sinning. But if you do, I'm asking you to give us a reasonable explanation as to why voting is a so-called Christian responsibility? I'll give you reasons as to why smoking a cigar (or a pipe--my preference) is not in the theological purview of Christian doctrine if you like, but now I'm trying to find out why the patriotic doctrine of Christian political involvement has found its way into our theology. You act as if I'm attempting to stop christian voting (and the theology behind such activity) while simultaneously being inconsistent in other areas which you think are equivalent. The two are not equivalent. Oh sure, I don't doubt that the whole idea of the sinfulness of smoking has traditionally been deemed a theological issue, but it should not be for those concerned about such things. I'm trying to get to the underlying philosophical reasons as to why voting for a Mormon (or a pro-abortion candidate) is to be regarded as a "Christian duty". And for the record, I'm not trying to separate from anyone who votes... I just want to know why preachers are now propagating this as a Christian doctrine? If it is a matter of theology then yes, it should be preached, but if not, then shut up and stick with preaching those doctrines that do make up our Gospel. I ask a few questions and suddenly I'm viewed as a preacher of dos and don'ts. Like I said, I couldn't care less whether you vote or don't vote, but if you do then I don't think that it is asking too much to get a biblical reason for the practice (as it relates to Christian doctrine.) Blessings, William
Quote: Prv14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge. The difference between love and compromise......sigh. Sorry, I missed this earlier... I can see how someone could take this as a call to be separate from sinners. That was not my intention. It was an attempt to highlight the folly of following someone (in this case --a prophet) who was preaching like a fool. Most Can Cope with that! <grin> Ignorance about these issues can be overlooked. The disciple is not above his teacher and I would never fault someone for doing or not doing something if they had never been taught. (Just look over all of my posts and you'll see that I do not condemn or belittle anyone who falls into this group.) That said, I do hold the teachers responsible. I don't think that ignorance is an excuse for them. I think that in many cases it has moved from ignorance and has become a matter of deception with them. Blessings, William
I was not trying to make this personal or insult anyone. I really wasn't. All I am saying is that we all have a long way to go. I am sure many pulpits are preaching that one must vote or you are going to hell. Many are still telling women to wear skirts and not cut their hair or they will go to hell. I think voting is a personal choice. I also think it is a grey area in the Word. To say that if you don't vote and you will go to hell is deception. It is also manipulation, which to me, is even more serious. You are right. Stick with the Word and shut up in the pulpit regarding personal opinions. But, where does that really happen? It did not even happen at FA. Many opinions became doctrine. Getting bogged down with pettiness serves nobody. Sorry if it seemed that way.
Quote: I was not trying to make this personal or insult anyone. I really wasn't. Oh I know that! It was my fault for not effectively expressing what I was trying to say. This all was brought about last night when I was informed that a respected bible theologian felt that it was necessary to give us all a lesson in our Christian duty. By his words he moves out of his calling as a bible teacher and moves into the realm of opinion. Now it's alright for him to have an opinion (everyone has a few!) but for him to present his patriotism as biblical truth without giving us a biblical basis for his words calls into question the very truth he claims to proclaim. I wanted to ask him the questions I posted but instead I posted here... my mistake. I should have given you all the reasons for posting instead of making it seem as if you guys(and gals) were being the butt end of a rebuke! Anyway... I still cannot understand how one can vote for a Mormon or vote for a pro-abortion candidate and then claim that it was done in the guise of somehow "fulfilling our Christian-duty." Blessings, William
Quote: Voting equals sin? Is that what you think I said? All I'm asking is for a rational answer as to why the above philosophy is almost universally accepted in today's church. If you've got some answers that can shed some light upon it, I'd love to hear them! Blessings, William Unquote No, I am only asking the question, is voting sin?. I was trying to make a point on this subject not refute any ones post. I was on another board where this topic came up and people who believed a Christian should not vote were adamant in their view. Right, its a matter of opinion in talking about voting. Whether some one votes or some one does not. Many churches are buying into this tea party movement and trying to make it Christian. This is why you see so many pushing patriotic duty as a part of Christianity. Again in this discussion on another board Christians were vehement about this movement and many threatened to leave the board over the subject. One more thing, I do not think we are compromising if we do not follow the teachings given years ago. We all have to come to our own conclusions and be persuaded by what the Bible tells us to do as Christians. The letter of the law kills but its the Spirit that gives life. In Him, Gary
Alanbook wrote on Tue, 06 November 2012 17:09 Many churches are buying into this tea party movement and trying to make it Christian. This is why you see so many pushing patriotic duty as a part of Christianity. Therein lies the answer. We don't ultimately serve a country or "party" when it come to Jesus. We serve Him, and Him only, as we are led, individually, according to our walk with Him.
I was not able to get online yesterday so I missed you guys discussion. My two cents really aren't worth two cents but I did want to say I am reading along and commented on the other topic about compromise that William started yesterday(before I noticed this thread). I have stated my convictions concerning voting and being involved in the political process of this nation various times over the last 4-5 years, just do a word search on 'voting' and there's several conversations on the subject. I did see a couple of ministers over the last several Sundays telling their congregations what they should do 'as Christians' in the election. My time is very limited right now but just wanted to say I love you brothers and sisters and know that God will perfect that which concerneth us if we'll seek Him with our whole hearts. btw: William, I don't know where the church of today has gotten most of their doctrines and theology, certainly not from God's Word by The Holy Spirit's revelation...but that's part of the reason there are so many denominations all claiming to have 'the truth'. "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins." "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:8&17 Peace and blessings in Christ, james
James, How are things? Looks like everybody voted and it did no good. A small handful of states had the electoral votes while the whole country voiced their opinion saying they did not want Obama back in, but it did not matter. Its hard for me to believe there is that many more people in those states out east that make the decisions for this country. But God is in control. The thing about compromise, it is easy to say everyone out there is compromising. But the thing is are we as former FA's considered compromising if we do not follow HF's teaching? Or is everyone compromising because they do not agree with my opinions on the Bible? I have found over the years its easy to be hard on others if they do not see eye to eye as we see, while all of us make excuses when it gets into our gray area. Compromise is a word used to belittle others that do not see as we see, only God sees the heart and knows if a man has a heart towards God. GWB will write later on your pm have been going through a back trial and have not felt like doing much, God is faithful and will not give me more then I can bear. In Him, Gary
Compromising on convictions of heart that are taken from study of God's Word or from teachings we received many years ago that we know in our hearts are valid, sound, scriptural truths is sin whether it's 'the church' doing it or ME, but when we take actions that aren't in faith, we are sinning...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Now coming to discover that we've been in error or mistaken about a conviction/principle we've followed for years(regardless if HEF taught it to us or not) and turning from that is not sin or compromise. The problem I find is that it is much harder to rightly divide when so many of us are on our on, so to speak(of course what I mean without being surrounded by fellow believer to bounce thoughts and beliefs off of, as we know, iron sharpens iron. And when we're seperated from the Body physically generally there isn't much iron around to rub against.<smile>) Yes, I've made my share of critical comments concerning 'others' compromising while having compromised myself; I don't think Jesus had anything nice to say about people like that, something about hypocrisy, and I confess this to my shame. But I have repented and He has forgive me, bless His Holy Name.
James Here is the thing I thought about, where do we draw the line? Most of the teachings we were taught can be found in scripture even if in principle. For every person the line is different. Take for instance xmas we can all see through history that it is nothing but a pagan celebration or even the situation with voting, as being of this world. Name the subject almost everything we was taught can be found in principle. Some have said its legalism to hold to these truths, which I think is an excuse for them to participate. I can name dozens of things that HEF taught but for some its compromise and others its liberty if a line is not established. I know what you mean about being in a body versus being on our own. Any way one man can call something compromise while another thinks its bondage. According to our teaching a Christian should not vote, but also involvement in sports, tv, etc you name the subject. One man says a brother is compromising in certain areas, but he the man will spend endless hours praising his favorite team. Can we say then hey that brothers compromising? This is what I mean by drawing lines in the sand. Either it was all true or it isn't? I hope you understand what I am trying to say, I'm just trying to understand what happened. In Him, Gary
Alanbook, I've replied to this under a new heading since it doesn't really fit under politics. I'll post in Christian Ethics (Life,liberty, and the pursuit of unhappiness) Blessings, William
Sorry about not responding to your note, James. I pretty much knew where you stood on this issue though. It's been fun to watch the caterwauling after the election. Just goes to show that even two-thirds of the evangelical vote is still not enough to get God to change His mind and put the other guy in. Maybe God was asleep when they were calling on him? <grin> (1King 18:27) Blessings, William
But if you do, I'm asking you to give us a reasonable explanation as to why voting is a so-called Christian responsibility? A good question. And since silly season is here - wait a minute I mean the presidential election is on so it should be answered. I see a lot of stuff like "we are commanded to vote" Gillian has had plenty to say on Facebook but mostly of the info variety. I'm trying to find out why the patriotic doctrine of Christian political involvement has found its way into our theology. It was probably always there but it really took off in the Reagan era. He brought a lot of evangelicals into gov't and a strong encouragement to participate. Concerned Women for America/Christian coalition/ Moral Majority. The really ironic things in my opinion is that they did have an effect but it also had the effect of the country taking a close look at us and for the most part they didn't like what they saw. We (evangelicals) are looked at as anti-science intolerant busybodies trying to run everyone else life. After the last election we're viewed as a bit of a spent force as well It's been fun to watch the caterwauling after the election. (1King 18:27) Thats for sure. Its voter fraud and MSNBC that did it. Here is my 2 cents for whatever it is worth. No criticism intended here for anyone. I can always tell when Christians don't pray for their gov't. How you ask? Because they are partisan in their politics. Praying lifts you out of the human morass of emotion most people vote out of. One begins to see like God does. Just fallible people in charge doing their job. In recent memory here in the frozen north land we had 2 prime ministers I thought were real crooks. I was impressed one day as I was criticizing him to pray for him. I realized at that moment that "I" little me could have a direct effect on that powerful man. So I did. Quit criticizing and started praying that is. The interesting thing is that was right around the time the Bilderbergers were meeting in Canada. From the behind the scenes news reports the Prime Minister in question stood up to them on a very serious issue. I don't know if it was my prayers or not. Anyway I thought I'd better offer a comment here before everyone thinks I went off and joined the Liberals or something
I appreciate the input of this subject and feel that it is a very important one. I also agree that we should allow others to walk according to their personal convictions and let them “figure it out” so to speak. I just wanted to clarify something. I see nothing wrong with calling a leader out when that leader is moving against the Word of God. Our leader bowed to and favors Islam. He has directly helped the Palestinians in their move against Israel. He did not even care to meet with Israel on his last Mid-Eastern tour. I could go into detail, but we can all read a newspaper. Is it wrong to call this out? I don’t think others were wrong to call out Hitler or Nebuchadnezzar and warn the people. Is our leader on the scale of these two people? No. However the principle still stands. Will it be wrong to tell people that a person is the Anti-Christ and to not take the mark? Just where do we draw the line of "praying" (not saying anything bad) and being a watchman? We did this at FA. Being "critical" turned into opinions becoming doctrine because people were afraid to speak up. BTW, what are people "praying" for in relation to the president? I know we can pray in general, but when something Godless is happening, it needs intercession for that Godless situation. How do we know to pray for that Godless situation unless someone sees it and shares it with other people? Of course, I am praying for the president. I am praying that he supports Israel and that God delivers him from Baal; Islam. I am praying that our Nation will not be judged due to these factors. Politics and religion go hand in hand in the Word. You can’t separate them. God moves on leaders and places them in office for different reasons. Pilate washed his hands of the death of Jesus. Voting? That is another issue. I can see where it can be good and bad. If we had two leaders run for president who did not support Israel, I would probably stay home and pray, too. This is my opinion. I am not trying to start anything at all. I just don’t understand why it is wrong to say that a leader is a Baal follower and hates Israel since we will all be accountable for the way Israel is supported and treated in this world.
Hi Gary, You said: Quote: Either it was all true or it isn't? And therein lies the problem... At least it highlights one of the major problems that I've dealt with over the years. We read that statement as "Either is was all true or it ALL wasn't true". Think about it. We had no place for "Most of it was true but some wasn't." To even contemplate such a view was perilously close to outright apostasy and the pox on anyone who actually EXPRESSED it openly! Blessings, William
Yep! No "on the shelf" stuff allowed...... <still pondering>
Just wanted to say that all my comments were general in nature. I had no reference to Gillian or anyone else. Even the comment I made about you wasn't intended to be critical.
I know that! Thanks!
William, William wrote: We had no place for "Most of it was true but some wasn't." To even contemplate such a view was perilously close to outright apostasy and the pox on anyone who actually EXPRESSED it openly!............Unquote Well this is were everything fell apart or at least the beginning stages. No one had a right to an opinion even if it was something minor that contradicted what was taught. Even though no one would admit it at the time we became a type of submitted body. I think the larger groups had this mindset more then the smaller house meetings that existed. I remember once some new tapes came out and a brother shows up at work and jumps on some other brothers for having three stripes on their tennis shoes. LOL Looking back what were we thinking anyway? Lord Bless, Gary
I agree, we had the mindset(and it still has roots in some of us) that either it was all true or none was true, no room for independent thought, or searching out the truth in scripture for ourselves. But hey! we were just young and zealous, desiring to follow Jesus 100%. I recall throwing away an almost 'new' pair of Nike running shoes because of peer preasure or something said on a tape. Guess what, it's funny Gary that you mention shoes with 3 stripes (Adidas), I have a pair on as I write, <SMILE>. btw: that wasn't The Lord behind that revelation, but that doesn't negate the message that was taught concerning faith, discipleship, healing, and deliverance, and the theology and Biblical ethics. There has been mentioned about HEF pulling the tapes on marriage/divorce/remarriage and some having a problem with it,(I did at the time) but couldn't we just allow the man the ability to change his views on something without concluding that everything else may be suspect? I know I've certainly changed some of my views as I've matured and grew in understanding of God's Word, including divorce/remarriage. While the past is always with us,(good and bad) we don't have to let the negative define who we are and what we believe today. Remember Peter, he could have been destroyed by condemnation and guilt, but Jesus prayed for him and he was able to put it behind him and be used mightly by The Lord...Jesus is praying for us as well, let's strive to put the past mistakes/sins behind us and press on in Christ. There's still time for us, Moses didn't really get started until he was 80, the first 80 years were preparation, that's encouraging when you think upon it...<smile>
james wrote on Wed, 21 November 2012 08:55 I agree, we had the mindset(and it still has roots in some of us) that either it was all true or none was true, no room for independent thought, or searching out the truth in scripture for ourselves. But hey! we were just young and zealous, desiring to follow Jesus 100%. Yes, the motivation was pure (we wanted to please the Lord) even though our methods were flawed! Quote: btw: that wasn't The Lord behind that revelation, but that doesn't negate the message that was taught concerning faith, discipleship, healing, and deliverance, and the theology and Biblical ethics. Amen. I think though, that most of our troubles resulted from not understanding the whole realm of biblical ethics. Ethical behavior is derived from principles not laws... to my mind we blurred this distinction and that became a major flaw. We have an aversion to the idea of 'situational ethics' because we like to have concrete answers that we can apply regardless of the circumstance, but I'm not sure that this is possible in the ethical realm without resorting to a list of do's and don'ts. The overarching default principle for the Christian is: loving God, and loving others. Applying that principle means that different situations may result in different actions. This is almost intolerable for human beings. We demand consistency and if one person acts one way in a certain situation, then EVERYONE must act in the same manner or the rule of ethics has been compromised. The problem? Ethics can't be reduced to a list of rules... ethics are principles we use to govern our actions in various situations and those situations are rarely EXACTLY the same. When we approach a situation we base what we do on our best understanding of what God's will is in the matter. That is the heart of ethics -- making decisions based upon the foundational truths of the Christian faith (love God, love others). We value uniformity of outcome more than simply allowing others to apply those principles for themselves. Why? I think the reason is that we feel threatened when others take a different action than our own. After all, if it is God's will for me to do this, then it must be God's will for you to do this... if I do this and you do that -- how can both of us be right?? Ethics and doctrine are two different areas and problems are going to rise when we confuse the two. Anyway, I've got to run... more later. Blessings, William
william wrote on Wed, 21 November 2012 10:55 Amen. I think though, that most of our troubles resulted from not understanding the whole realm of biblical ethics. Ethical behavior is derived from principles not laws... to my mind we blurred this distinction and that became a major flaw. We have an aversion to the idea of 'situational ethics' because we like to have concrete answers that we can apply regardless of the circumstance, but I'm not sure that this is possible in the ethical realm without resorting to a list of do's and don'ts. The overarching default principle for the Christian is: loving God, and loving others. Applying that principle means that different situations may result in different actions. This is almost intolerable for human beings. We demand consistency and if one person acts one way in a certain situation, then EVERYONE must act in the same manner or the rule of ethics has been compromised. The problem? Ethics can't be reduced to a list of rules... ethics are principles we use to govern our actions in various situations and those situations are rarely EXACTLY the same. When we approach a situation we base what we do on our best understanding of what God's will is in the matter. That is the heart of ethics -- making decisions based upon the foundational truths of the Christian faith (love God, love others). Ethics and doctrine are two different areas and problems are going to rise when we confuse the two. I believe you have hit the nail on the head(Gary understands this saying, <grin>); hopefully we'll all come to this understanding and how to incorporate it into our daily walk. I believe The Lord gave me this simple little insight... If I don't like being 'boxed in' by others opinions and rules, then maybe I should think twice before trying to legislate morality and behavior upon them. They probably don't like being forced into obedience of 'my' rules anymore than I do theirs, I think the Golden Rule covers this. So all you voters, pill takers, movie goers, worldly looking, political activist, tithing, denominational church going, money borrowing, oath taking, drinkers and smokers, multiple married folks, evolution believing, right-wing, people who are bought by The Blood of Jesus Christ...I say, "I love you, and if I've ever attempted to or suggested any actions on your part that wasn't in your heart or you coulddn't see in scriptures, then I'm sorry. You don't answer to me, unto The Lord only must you answer." So if you're a doctor, nurse, government elected offical, or any of the above mention people...and are in Christ, then you are my brother/sister. The idea suggested that a person would lose their salvation and be ostracized from fellowship with The Body of Christ over going to doctors, voting, wearing unaproved clothing, or most anything else short of blatant sins, is reflective of major problems(or flaws as William stated). We now know the results of those actions...not pretty, that train wreck left 'body parts' scattered all over the world; people still trying to figure out what happened 28 years later.
I'm stunned! <grin> (Not because it was 'you' making those statements, but I'm stunned because I might have actually articulated something that was understandable!) Blessings, William
Note to myself: Think about the way doctrine relates to ethics. Doctrine is concrete, doctrine is objective, doctrine is foundational. Ethics is/are (I never know whether it should be plural or singular) derived from doctrine but is more subjective in its applications. Blessings, William
All of this is true, but on the other hand, I think there are situations that are!!! Okay its hard to put into words, but there are things in life that are not worth the pursuit. In other words I do not think the Lord is entirely pleased with the direction of the church world which is made up of Christians. Things that should be weighed before the Lord. Walking with God is more then just setting in a church and then living and following the things of the world. All I am saying is that there is a natural inclination of mankind to follow the flesh rather then the spirit. And there is the adversary. The devil an unseen force working behind the scenes trying to allure us to his world. Its not about outward appearances, how we try to appear before each other. But there is a place for an abstaining from some things that are not profitable, though harmless in this world. Jeremiah 13:10 This evil people, who refuse to hear My words, who follow the dictates of their hearts, and walk after other gods to serve them and worship them, shall be just like this sash which is profitable for nothing. Would it surprise you to think that thousands of people set in church with no regard to what God says in His word. The Bible says a lot about what is important to God and what men pursue as harmless things of this world. Grace is not a license to be lawless. Take for instance "dress" some churches have dress codes. While some are free to wear what they want. Most end up in some churches dressing like the world. While a true Christian I think in their heart should know what is considered appropriate it appears many are not able to discern this. There has to be some type of understanding from the pulpit that at least makes people understand what is appropriate and what is not, at the same time not requiring a dress code. This is something that can be translated to every area we find ourselves in. I can name a gazillion subjects but I don't want someone to zero in on the subject and miss the point being stated here. I know the NT says that some teach the commandments of men as doctrines. But modesty of dress is a doctrine or teaching. Like I said its hard to put into words without it becoming a rule to live by. Granted looking back the sisters with their jean dresses were starting to look like the Amish or at least like we had a jean dress code. Finding the balance without leaning towards the world, the flesh, and then not going to far the other way to religious extremism, is a valid problem that every church must face. I think when men have zeal and love for the Lord they want to naturally do anything possible to please God. In the final analysis pleasing God requires obedience to His Will. Any rate I don't know what this has to do with anything but it sounded good while writing it. LOL Lord Bless, Gary
Before I start my osyter dressing (just kidding) I just wanted to say that I don't think any of the regular posters on this forum encourage or dress like the world(as far as immodesty goes), but even those in the church who continue to do so must have it in their hearts or it'll be just a law to them. No! It is no suprise that thousands sit in church without regarding what God says in His Word...actually, millions. But still I think it would be better for a person to sit in church immodestly dressed, where at least there's a chance(however slim) they may be taught Biblical principles concerning modesty, holiness, and not dressing to cause others to stumble, than to be out in a club dancing the night away, where there's no chance of them being taught and convicted of these truths. "At any rate I don't know what this has to do with anything...LOL" That's funny, gobble, gobble!
james wrote on Thu, 22 November 2012 09:16 Before I start my osyter dressing (just kidding) I just wanted to say that I don't think any of the regular posters on this forum encourage or dress like the world(as far as immodesty goes), but even those in the church who continue to do so must have it in their hearts or it'll be just a law to them. No! It is no suprise that thousands sit in church without regarding what God says in His Word...actually, millions. But still I think it would be better for a person to sit in church immodestly dressed, where at least there's a chance(however slim) they may be taught Biblical principles concerning modesty, holiness, and not dressing to cause others to stumble, than to be out in a club dancing the night away, where there's no chance of them being taught and convicted of these truths. Not implying that anyone is dressing immodestly here. Where'd you come up with that one. LOL Do you know something we don't? LOl Just Kidding! My whole point is that people are not being taught in these churches. So, I guess it narrows down to, Is it possible to teach ethics and people not turn them into laws in the church? If a man deals with a subject concerning ethics finding the balance in the group can be a pandoras box. Pardon the occult term here. Then there is the other problem of how many of the things taught in ethics are a ministers opinions? I'm trying to think some of these things through but while typing I knew down in my heart William made some good points and as I thought of all the scriptures involved I knew that it does become laws. James I thought the library was closed on thanksgiving day how did you respond so quickly with no computer in your house? Dress was just one area that popped in my mind I was mainly talking about ethics in general. BTW I hardly wear tennis shoes, I like boots so the three stripe deal never meant much to me. Gary P.S. Doing much better, God is manifesting my healing. Praise His Holy Name.
Alanbook wrote on Fri, 23 November 2012 08:44 Not implying that anyone is dressing immodestly here. Where'd you come up with that one. LOL Do you know something we don't? LOl Just Kidding! james replies***I know you weren't, I was just making a general comment...though in summer I almost 'live' in cargo shorts and t-shirts...like much of the 'world' here in the hot, humid south. My whole point is that people are not being taught in these churches. So, I guess it narrows down to, Is it possible to teach ethics and people not turn them into laws in the church? james replies***Not until 'we, the church' start walking in the spirit and being taught and living the 'spirit' of God's Word and not the letter... If a man deals with a subject concerning ethics finding the balance in the group can be a pandoras box. Pardon the occult term here. Then there is the other problem of how many of the things taught in ethics are a ministers opinions? james replies*** Way too many! I'm trying to think some of these things through but while typing I knew down in my heart William made some good points and as I thought of all the scriptures involved I knew that it does become laws. james replies***I thought William expressed what years of experience and maturity has taught him, and I believe he expressed it very well. James I thought the library was closed on thanksgiving day how did you respond so quickly with no computer in your house? james replies*** We have a communications/media center where I live that I can use (when they aren't being used by others or are connected to the wireless network) anytime 24/7. Dress was just one area that popped in my mind I was mainly talking about ethics in general. BTW I hardly wear tennis shoes, I like boots so the three stripe deal never meant much to me. Gary P.S. Doing much better, God is manifesting my healing. Praise His Holy Name. james replies*** Praise The Lord Gary, He is faithful...He's also manifesting healing in my body as well.
Alanbook wrote on Thu, 22 November 2012 05:47 Okay its hard to put into words, but there are things in life that are not worth the pursuit. I agree. A Church that emphasizes the perfections of the Lord and the possibility of our being able to fellowship with Him puts almost every pursuit into this category. Quote: Walking with God is more then just setting in a church and then living and following the things of the world. So true. Following after Jesus should occupy our minds 24/7. When we follow Him the 'things of the world become strangely dim...' Quote: All I am saying is that there is a natural inclination of mankind to follow the flesh rather then the spirit. And there is the adversary. The devil an unseen force working behind the scenes trying to allure us to his world. Agreed. A Church that presents the complete gospel with the proper emphasis on Jesus will inspire us to recognize the dangers presented by the temptations of both the flesh and the devil. Quote: Its not about outward appearances, how we try to appear before each other. But there is a place for an abstaining from some things that are not profitable, though harmless in this world. James, maybe the first pastor of a NT Church, says exactly that: Quote: Acts15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: Acts15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. Acts15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Paul gives us some of the same teaching: Quote: 1Th4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 1Th4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 1Th4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 1Th4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 1Th4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 1Th4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. 1Th4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 1Th4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. 1Th4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. He continues with this: Quote: 1Th5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 1Th5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Th5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. Anyway, the idea of 'abstaining' for the good of the kingdom and for the good of others is certainly worth pursuing. You continue: Quote: Jeremiah 13:10 This evil people, who refuse to hear My words, who follow the dictates of their hearts, and walk after other gods to serve them and worship them, shall be just like this sash which is profitable for nothing. Would it surprise you to think that thousands of people set in church with no regard to what God says in His word. The Bible says a lot about what is important to God and what men pursue as harmless things of this world. Grace is not a license to be lawless. But where does the fault lie? Is it because they have no shepherds that stick to biblical teaching? Or is it simply that we have a lot of unsaved people who don't have hearts for the Lord? I don't see how that it is any of my business to correct a person who doesn't have a heart to follow after the Lord and as far as those worthless shepherds are concerned -- God will deal with them. We know the results of trying to get everyone to conform to some outward standard... it hasn't worked, and even when it seemed to work we find out later that maybe they never had a heart for it after all. Why waste our time worrying about a segment of the church population that may be swayed to outward conformity but who aren't really inwardly motivated to do so? We have a clear pattern to follow -- preach the Word-- some will hear and believe and others will not. We've gained absolutely nothing by preaching opinions that can never change the heart. Think about it, let's say that we get a group of people together who are willing to follow all of the outward standards (we could spend all night on just FA's list here!), what have we accomplished? NOTHING. Nothing but a bunch of people who think that following all of the rules is the way to please God. Keep whipping them into shape, whenever one gets out of line, and keep making them think that by 'doing the word' (as we called it) we please God. Well, surely by now we've concluded that this is no more a barometer of ones genuine love for the Lord than it is for those who walk up concrete steps on bloodied knees. Think about your own life. What is it that motivates you to serve God? Is it the admonitions that you find in the Bible? Are you serving Him because you know the consequences of not keeping every so-called mandate that is presented in the Bible? Those kinds of things are helpful in pointing out our need for repentance --John the Baptist got a whole generation to come out and be baptized with that message, but it didn't seem to last, at least for a large majority of them. So what is it that motivates you? Me? James? GWB? Mark? (I can't list everyone so don't feel like I think these are the only ones!) I think that the motivation stems from the fact that we love Him. I know that He loved us first which makes it possible for us to love Him, (just so we keep our theology right) but really, that seems to be the difference. One who loves God needs NO external performance records to prove that he loves. Words fail me here, but surely you know what I'm talking about. I don't do things in order to be in compliance with bible verses. I do things because I love Him. We all know the perils of just complying with bible verses. It gives a measure of comfort but it doesn't prove our love for Him... one may take comfort in the knowledge that they are doing something that will 'get them into the kingdom' or make them an overcomer, but if what a person does isn't from a heart of love and gratitude to Jesus then all of it is futile. Think about all of the pride we (or I'll just use myself here) took in not celebrating Christmas (even now I'm fighting a losing battle to tell you all that I don't celebrate Christmas... <sigh>), not going to the arm of the flesh, not going into debt, not wearing certain shoes, not wearing glasses, not having insurance, not watching the fireworks display on the forth of July, not eating at the "Lucky Steer" (if I did I couldn't help but change the name to "Blessed Steer" when telling of my adventure!), not listening to rock music, not listening to classical music, (heck, not even listening to any music that Jerry didn't sing!), not using 'heck' because 'shoot' cussing was just as bad as the real thing, not installing TV cabinets in the motor homes we built, not having a TV in the house... and I could go on... but when I think about all of the pride I took in those things and realize that NONE of it made a squat of difference in my relationship with the Lord, none of it was a test of my love for Him or my love for others; it's a painful revelation. It actually hurts me to think that for awhile I actually thought that these things were proof of my love. Worse still, I used those standards as a yard-stick (or baseball bat, as the case required) to measure the faithfulness of others. Quote: Take for instance "dress" some churches have dress codes. While some are free to wear what they want. Most end up in some churches dressing like the world. While a true Christian I think in their heart should know what is considered appropriate it appears many are not able to discern this. There has to be some type of understanding from the pulpit that at least makes people understand what is appropriate and what is not, at the same time not requiring a dress code. And why can't the people discern it? What can the pulpit do to get people to discern it? What mandate do they have to create a dress code? I think, based upon what we've been hashing out, that this is an example where we do have to leave it to the Holy Spirit. I mean really, why should we care what anyone else is wearing? (We ought to be able to avert our eyes if necessary.) If the bible is being taught then at some point folks should get the idea that clothing that is designed to call attention to oneself is inconsistent with the message of the crucified life. If they don't then what good does it do to make them dress a certain way? I can't prove this because I haven't taken the time to research my theory but I do find it interesting that when the bible speaks of clothing, it cautions against the wearing of costly array, not half-nakedness. I think this might be due to the fact that nakedness doesn't set one apart from any other person in the world. We all, rich or poor, have a naked body... we're all equals here!<grin> But finery (or costly array) is something that sets a person apart... there's pride in having a wardrobe to beat all wardrobes. Well, it just might be that a person who had very little in the area of clothing was considered contemptible in that society and those who had a colorful wardrobe considered it to be an issue of pride and consequently this was an area that needed to be addressed-- not because of the clothes, but because of the pride generated by the clothes. The Greek games were preformed naked (I think) because it equalized the playing field... nakedness in any other context was shameful, not necessarily because of the morality of it all but because a person who didn't have anything but a loin cloth would no doubt have been considered a pauper. Now clothing or the lack of clothing has become sexualized but it might not have been so back then. But that's just a theory. But whatever is legislated in the area of clothing can only mirror an opinion of a person. If we were sent to the jungles of some far-away place our opinion might need to be mitigated somewhat. Even brother Freeman had to resort to a vague opinion in this area when he said that he couldn't legislate matters of clothing, i.e. how long a dress could be, but he knew when it was too short! Or when a man's hair was too long, or a woman's hair was too short, (some women were bald, btw.). Quote: I know the NT says that some teach the commandments of men as doctrines. But modesty of dress is a doctrine or teaching. Define 'modesty' as a doctrine, or define 'worldly clothing' as a doctrine and we can talk about it as a doctrine... otherwise it is just an opinion. Quote: Like I said its hard to put into words without it becoming a rule to live by. Granted looking back the sisters with their jean dresses were starting to look like the Amish or at least like we had a jean dress code. Finding the balance without leaning towards the world, the flesh, and then not going to far the other way to religious extremism, is a valid problem that every church must face. I think when men have zeal and love for the Lord they want to naturally do anything possible to please God. In the final analysis pleasing God requires obedience to His Will. Any rate I don't know what this has to do with anything but it sounded good while writing it. LOL It was good! Blessings, William
William This whole post is probably the best explanation of this that I have seen. I was thinking of the scripture also that says the wheat and the tares will grow up together. It would be a total waste of time trying to correct someone when all along they were a tare that did not have a heart for God. Of course we would never know who was who so correcting anybody would be ludicrous. What's our motivation for serving God? Quote: I think that the motivation stems from the fact that we love Him. That says it all. I think this is why the scripture says to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. That in its self is a handful. I did enjoy your reply here and thinking about all this gives me a whole different outlook on this subject. Lord Bless, Gary
Alanbook wrote on Sat, 24 November 2012 09:19 William This whole post is probably the best explanation of this that I have seen. What's our motivation for serving God? Quote: I think that the motivation stems from the fact that we love Him. That says it all. I think this is why the scripture says to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. That in its self is a handful. I did enjoy your reply here and thinking about all this gives me a whole different outlook on this subject. I agree with Gary, William...you getting goot at this articulation stuff...<grin> Seriously, you've shared some truths that hits home with almost every person whom was associated with FA and probably a lot of other churchs throughtout time. Maybe you should print up a little booklet on this subject and title it, "God Didn't Saved Me to be the Hall Monitor", or maybe "Who Appointed You King of HIS Kingdom"... Thinking back about this additude i/we had to whatever degree, I take heart and comfort in my predestionation and election...because only God in His awesome Mercy and Grace would have put up with me/us while i/we were strutting around dictating our opinions upon others...whether in words or additudes of judgment...What mercy! What longsuffering! What LOVE! Again I say, Thank You Father, Thank You Jesus!
Quote: Maybe you should print up a little booklet on this subject and title it, "God Didn't Saved Me to be the Hall Monitor", Gotta good laugh out of that one.
I have for some time tried to 'figure out' why so many seemly devout Christian people get all caught up in the political process here in America. I've observed and listened to their various arguments(along with the scriptures they repeat, and in my opinion twist out of context) they use to justify their actions and why they are so convienced I (and those who believe as I do) am not fulfilling my 'christian duty' by not being involved in their cause... Today as I was reading something by Peter C. Wagner(NAR...New Apostolic Reformation) in Charisma Magazine, it all came together; it's known as Dominionism/Dominionist Theology. It's the belief that Christians should impose their moral views upon society and to do so through political activism; voting, marching, protesting, joining together with anyone who will endorse their political views on morality and how laws/rules/justice/ect. should be administered. They believe they as Christians have a mandate from Jesus to, by whatever means, take over this world from Satan and 'dominate' it, forcing God's Kingdom into power NOW.(kingdom now or restorationism is used by some to describe their theology) Just a quick Google search of 'dominionist teachers today' gives some info on what is propagated and by whom(Joyner, Wagner, Hamon, and most 'Word of Faith' teachers). I found it interesting how terms we use or used, 'Joel's Army', 'Latter Rain', 'Dominion', and 'Apostles'; have been made to mean something altogether differentover the last 20 years or so. So many are hungering for 'a new thing' and are being swept up in the tide of deception. How has Satan done it? Ole Glory(american flag/stars n stripes) on display in almost ALL churches today; spirit of patriotism; peer pressure; false teachers in pulpits not sent by God; people walking in the flesh rather than the spirit; and the desire to see this country become a God fearing nation with God's will being done 'as it is in heaven'.
james wrote on Sat, 08 December 2012 15:29 I have for some time tried to 'figure out' why so many seemly devout Christian people get all caught up in the political process here in America. I've observed and listened to their various arguments(along with the scriptures they repeat, and in my opinion twist out of context) they use to justify their actions and why they are so convinced I (and those who believe as I do) am not fulfilling my 'christian duty' by not being involved in their cause... Today as I was reading something by Peter C. Wagner(NAR...New Apostolic Reformation) in Charisma Magazine, it all came together; it's known as Dominionism/Dominionist Theology. It's the belief that Christians should impose their moral views upon society and to do so through political activism; voting, marching, protesting, joining together with anyone who will endorse their political views on morality and how laws/rules/justice/ect. should be administered. They believe they as Christians have a mandate from Jesus to, by whatever means, take over this world from Satan and 'dominate' it, forcing God's Kingdom into power NOW.(kingdom now or restorationism is used by some to describe their theology) Just a quick Google search of 'dominionist teachers today' gives some info on what is propagated and by whom(Joyner, Wagner, Hamon, and most 'Word of Faith' teachers). I found it interesting how terms we use or used, 'Joel's Army', 'Latter Rain', 'Dominion', and 'Apostles'; have been made to mean something altogether differentover the last 20 years or so. So many are hungering for 'a new thing' and are being swept up in the tide of deception. How has Satan done it? Ole Glory(american flag/stars n stripes) on display in almost ALL churches today; spirit of patriotism; peer pressure; false teachers in pulpits not sent by God; people walking in the flesh rather than the spirit; and the desire to see this country become a God fearing nation with God's will being done 'as it is in heaven'. I think you've hit the nail on the head James. Many years ago I ran into a person who had embraced the dominionist theology and when push came to shove he admitted that the only way to implement their theology, especially as it related to secular society, was to adopt the OT law. This of course caused many raised eyebrows and the inevitable question arose about what to do about obvious sinners. For instance, when pressed, he stated that an adulterer would need to be stoned! I can't say for certain that his view represented the attitude of all dominionists but obviously the issue of how to deal with overt sinners would need to be addressed in the event of a dominionist's rise to power. It would be a difficult task to 'control' the heathen using the NT principles. I mean, how could one take seriously Jesus' admonition to James & John that the Son of Man came not to destroy, but save men? On the other hand by reverting to the OT standard one could at least find some sort of justification for removing the ' undesirables' from among us! Now if we can just resurrect the International Guild of Internet Apostles... (they would have the answers!) Blessings, William