John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:23 "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." 1Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." I was pondering these scriptures in how we can apply them in our everyday lives. We know that everyone is at different stages in their walks with the Lord. Some I know don't like to do yard work on Sundays, as they consider it the Lord's day or the day of rest. Others have no problem with it. Some have no problem going to a movie theatre, where others have the conviction of the Lord to not support that wicked, antichrist entertainment medium. Some don't want to trust the Lord for healing, where is it clearly promised in God's word, but others will go to deaths door if need be. Some want to go in debt where others do not want to owe man anything but love. So, how do we apply the above scriptures in our daily lives? Personally, I am all for letting others walk out their own salvation with fear and trembling, but there has to be holiness and separation from the world and its ways.
Re: "That they all may be one"
Sage wrote on Sun, 22 April 2012 11:20 John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:23 "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." 1Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." I was pondering these scriptures in how we can apply them in our everyday lives. We know that everyone is at different stages in their walks with the Lord. Some I know don't like to do yard work on Sundays, as they consider it the Lord's day or the day of rest. Others have no problem with it. Some have no problem going to a movie theatre, where others have the conviction of the Lord to not support that wicked, antichrist entertainment medium. Some don't want to trust the Lord for healing, where is it clearly promised in God's word, but others will go to deaths door if need be. Some want to go in debt where others do not want to owe man anything but love. So, how do we apply the above scriptures in our daily lives? Personally, I am all for letting others walk out their own salvation with fear and trembling, but there has to be holiness and separation from the world and its ways. That's an interesting question. I believe that the "holiness and separation from the world" part is where we have the most problem. If, for instance, you consider those who don't trust the Lord for healing as non-christian, then the answer is simple. Same with the other things you mentioned. But, what happens if they are Christian? It certainly doesn't mean that you have to compromise your own convictions and sit down and watch the latest Hollywood production with them. It doesn't mean you can't rebuke things that you consider bad behavior. Paul says: Quote: 1Cor5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. He says this in the context of writing to a group of pretty carnal Christians. A group that seemed to be separating over personalities. A group that was 'puffed up' because of their associations with certain ministries which, btw, were all Christian ministries. If I might make a loose comparison with the party spirit we see in our own day. "I am of Hobart", "I am of Tom Hamilton", "I am of Webber", "I am of Brenneman", "I am of Steve Hill", "I am of J.Vernon Mcgee" (<grin>) or "I am simply following Jesus in Alabama". Why separate ourselves from those who are called to minister for Christ? It should go without saying that not one of these ministers has achieved perfection in their doctrine or practice and we would not endorce everything they stand for but if our foundation is already laid--Jesus Christ--can we not benefit from them all? I know I have. Which brings up another interesting thought... who among us can claim credit for anything that we've received? If we received it, what have we to boast about? If I've got something that you don't have and I give it to you, we both can be blessed. If I've got something that you don't have and I separate myself from you because you don't have it, then how is Jesus' prayer ever to come into fruition? If separation is going to occur, I think it should only be after we have attempted to give out the good news we've received. It's the truth that sets people free and that generally comes through vessels that have the truth. Merely separating ourselves like the Amish do, might keep us from being tempted in certain ways, but it isn't going to accomplish God's purpose in this earth. I'm not even certain that there is any practical value in that kind of separation. What happens when a person is thrown into a situation that is outside of their comfort zone? What do they do then? Besides God has called us to be in the world (not of it) as salt and light! Thoughts? Blessings, William
Good thoughts William, I don't think because someone does something(go to movies) or doesn't do something(trust the Lord for healing)makes them a christian. It is a matter of receiving Jesus as their Lord and savior and then walking in and obeying the Word of God. You said: "I believe that the "holiness and separation from the world" part is where we have the most problem. If, for instance, you consider those who don't trust the Lord for healing as non-christian, then the answer is simple. Same with the other things you mentioned." Why should we now have problems with the holiness and separation from the world? I am all for letting people walk in what God has shown them in how to walk in holiness and separation, but how can we, today, walk in what Jesus prayer was? It isn't just by outward dress or how we talk, but that does have to be a part of it. Not because someone once upon a time made some statements about dress, but because it is in God's word. We are not all clones of each other. We are all people who will stand before God one day and give an account of our life. And I don't mean for this question on how to walk in Jesus prayer in John 17 to apply to the past and what happened at Faith Assembly, but rather how can I, today, apply it to my life. Maybe this topic would have been better in the section on going verse by verse with a chapter in the Bible. This could be a very interesting study on how to apply the prayer Jesus prayed for us. You had mentioned a few of these verses in another topic, so it got me to thinking of how can we see this in our lives, today, not 25 years ago. And by the way, I love the way you have put in the blue letter bible, thank you for doing that.
Well, I almost think that we have to look at our past in order to determine how it applies to us today. The issue of separation (not just in dress and eating meat sacrificed to idols) is to my mind the opposite of the idea of oneness presented in John 17. To make the point I could probably safely say that all of us consider ourselves 'one' with Jesus. Would we then consider ourselves 'one' with others who name the name of Christ? A person sitting in a present-day FA service certainly thinks they are one with Christ and I can imagine that there are those in Goshen who have the same idea. The local Baptists would say that they are one with Christ as would those in the Catholic church. Practically speaking then, would there ever be a scenario where we would consider ourselves one with any of them? All of the groups would be doctrinally different... no question about that, so we can either conclude that they aren't Christian because they don't have the same doctrinal positions as us and as a consequence separate ourselves from them (like most of us have done) OR we can seek to determine if this oneness is comprised of something else--like the ranks of the redeemed? I kinda like the whole doctrinal separation thing because it is so easy. After all, doesn't Jesus say that you cannot be his disciple without obedience? Then we only have to determine what He taught and we're on our way to being 'one' with Him and all of those who agree with us. Cept it didn't quite work out that way --not in the past, not in the present. Really it should have been easy because in at least three places (I believe it was Jesus, Paul, and James) we were given the summary of the whole gospel with respect to our duty --love God, and our neighbors as ourselves. Soon as we define love, we'll be well on our way! Fortunately the concept of love was summarized as well: 1Jn3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. We know who our brethren (well, somewhat!) are but who are our neighbors? Maybe the denominationals? Idunno, but whoever they are they probably need some help because they are lying there in the ditch. I do think that Jesus' prayer for oneness is only concerning the redeemed, not the world (John17:9) so that leaves only the task of finding out who *we* should be loving (in word and deed). If we go ahead and expand the statement about 'loving our neighbor' to include the un-redeemed (which I think we should) and go about seeking ways to love them then the issue of separation becomes a bit more simplified as well. It seems as if it isn't 'who' we should separate from but 'what' we are to separate from? Quote: 1Jn2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1Jn2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1Jn2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. It seems to me that Jesus' prayer encompasses all who make up the redeemed so the practical implications for us is to make sure that as much as possible we get along with all who name the name of Jesus. The rest (the world) ought to be considered by us as victims of thieves and we should do all we can to alleviate their suffering. If we love the brethren and love the non-saved then we aren't going to be a hindrance to Jesus' prayer. Jesus will separate the ones that need separating in the end so we don't have to be too worried about loving everyone --that is our duty as His people (1 Cor 13). Is that helpful? Blessings, William
william wrote on Sun, 22 April 2012 12:36 If I might make a loose comparison with the party spirit we see in our own day. "I am of Hobart", "I am of Tom Hamilton", "I am of Webber", "I am of Brenneman", "I am of Steve Hill", "I am of J.Vernon Mcgee" (<grin>) or "I am simply following Jesus in Alabama". Why separate ourselves from those who are called to minister for Christ? It should go without saying that not one of these ministers has achieved perfection in their doctrine or practice and we would not endorce everything they stand for but if our foundation is already laid--Jesus Christ--can we not benefit from them all? I know I have. Thoughts? I think it's one thing when a ministry/minister hasn't achieved perfection in their doctrine or practice (hey, neither have I)and one can gleen from them. But when they have(as is the case with some of the above mentioned former FA ministers) turned away from clear teaching from The Word(specifically divine healing, pagan holidays...) and encourage others to do so, what position should a Christian take? I'm sure they preach and teach many things that edify and point people to Jesus in other areas of doctrine...and as I mentioned concerning Joe Brenneman, there would be far more that I agreed with than disagreed with in his teachings. But am I going to allow him be bring me into legalism in the area that he is 'not making rules'? No. If any of Malcolm Webbers congregation lived by me I'd treat them just like I believe them to be, brothers and sisters in The Lord. But I'm not sitting under that ministry when he openly preaches that total faith in Jesus Christ alone for healing is extreme faith and the whole body participates in pagan idolatry in the celebration of xmass and eastar...Both he once embraced as truth. Would I carry on a conversation about spiritual matters if he walked up to me? Sure. I'd help him if he needed help as I would anyone else. But I wouldn't join their fellowship if I lived across the street from it. Am I condemning him as a man? No, I'm not, (and I'm sure no better than he) but I don't see how a person with the understanding of God's faithfulness to heal and deliver, become unitified with those who reject it. It's different for those who have received the faith message and turned from it than a ministry who just doesn't have the light in an area yet. I don't have all the answers, but I know from first hand experience that unless one is EXTREMELY vigilant their faith will be robbed. Now one may say that if a person has true faith then how can anyone else talk them out of it? Because when a person compromises by participating in an assembly that isn't walking in the light, they are making a choice when they know better, and all because of a desire for Christian fellowship.(and to ease their conscious about not forsaking the assembling together) I'd welcome anyone proving this to be untrue. I am willing to be taught different if someone can show me from biblical principles that I'm wrong. I want unity in The Body of Christ, but in my spirit I believe we shouldn't compromise what Jesus died to give us just for the sake of being one as Christians. I'm not suggesting anyone is saying that, I'm just sharing my thoughts.
Quote: I'd welcome anyone proving this to be untrue. I am willing to be taught different if someone can show me from biblical principles that I'm wrong. I thought that is what I've spent half a day doing. Jesus prays that we be one. This oneness is for the redeemed. Are these people redeemed or not? Paul rebukes a spirit of division in the Corinthians. They had a lot of doctrinal problems. Solution? Go your own way or work it out? (Is Christ divided??) Jesus taught and this is what happened: Quote: John6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? John6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? John6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. John6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? John6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. John6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? So where does that leave us? There seems to be a choice of either separating or becoming one. If both sides are redeemed I don't think we have a choice. Eventually we are going to the same place in the same kingdom with the same King. We are told to pray "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". Either that means it is His will for us to separate or to seek to be one. If we separate, we will have no part in changing anyone's heart. If we seek to be one we keep the door opened so that we have opportunities to edify each other in the truth. We've tried the separation routine and that hasn't worked. Paul rebuked Peter to his face because Peter was at one time a part of the 'let us separate' party. Quote: Gal2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. Gal2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. Gal2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. Gal2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? So don't think that I'm saying that we need to compromise anything but if we cannot love our brother whom we have seen... Quote: 1Jn4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1Jn4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 1Jn4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1Jn4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. and then: Quote: 1Jn4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1Jn4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1Jn4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1Jn4:19 We love him, because he first loved us. 1Jn4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 1Jn4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. Again, is not the test of 'brotherhood' those who are redeemed? John even mentions the commandments: Quote: 1Jn5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 1Jn5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 1Jn5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1Jn5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1Jn5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? Note what he says in vs 1. He then continues by showing us a way to know *our own* hearts. He didn't say that we should look at others and judge them as to whether or not *they* are keeping the commandments and then decide to love or not; he says that we can know how we are doing by keeping the commandments. It goes without saying that one of the commandments that we are called to keep is to love our brothers. Okay... now to what I believe is your main point--How can we have fellowship with those that are not walking in the light? What is he referring to here? Is it the light of Christmas? The light of Easter? The light of divine healing? Or is it the light that Jesus Christ has died to save us from our sins? Like I said before, it is very easy to just say that they have left the faith (meaning they are not saved). If one has departed from the faith then the oneness that Jesus expresses is going to be impossible. But... and this is where you'll need to judge for yourself--if these folks are still in the faith it is incumbent on us to reprove, rebuke, (with all long-suffering) and continue to love them with our whole heart lest we find that we ourselves have departed from the faith. 1John 4:20 1Jn4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. That verse says a lot. Does it not apply to our own situation? When we assume that our association with 'our brothers' is going to compromise us, is this not fear? When Joe Brenneman's people separate themselves because they fear Webber's people (I know that Christ is not divided) is this not fear? Have we come so far that we believe that this kind of separation is loving our brother?? Is it love when we all have been partakers of the well of salvation and continue to divide ourselves over whether or not a person has faith for healing? You say that we all were taught about the truth of divine healing... you'd be right but you'd be wrong if you thought that it meant that all walked in that truth, and that those who have given up that truth have given up their salvation. Everything that was taught isn't a salvation issue... if it were then I think that Joe's crowd may have an advantage over us! Am I saying that we all missed God by not celebrating easter a couple of weekends ago? Of course not. Am I implying that it is now okay to partake of a pagan holiday? Of course not. What I am saying though, is that we have no right to bring back the OT law and say that those who have eaten the easter eggs (or as we would have put it: "bowed the knee to the easter bunny") are not saved. Remember, reprove, rebuke, preach sound doctrine... cause that is what we are called to do (that is love) but unless and until you know they are no longer saved we have no choice but to love them still. Whatever we have that they don't have is not due to our own abilities. 1Cor4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? Thank God He has people who have the truth. Thank God that He has people who have not cloistered themselves from every person who once walked in a measure of the truth. Now if what I've stated isn't proof that this 'oneness' that Jesus prays for does not apply to all who are saved (Baptists, Methodists, FA, Goshen, Hamilton) and that separation from that group of redeemed men is not the way this oneness is achieved then I think it is up to you to prove that it means something else from the Word of God. Blessings, William
Almost every time I write down some of my thoughts I wonder if I am thorough enough and am I coming across as I intend. Many times I find myself exasperated in my inability to express myself as I desire...then there are times when I'm not sure where I'm going half way through a post(lost train of thought<grin>) You, William come across as a bit exasperated with me...LOL (sorry for your wasted half day) I don't recall ever saying that I don't consider people who don't believe as I do unsaved or not redeemed, I sure hope not. I also love others as best I know how(that would be by the actions I take concerning them...not just words.) A recent example of dealing with someone who has decided to no longer believe and obey The Lord in regards to divine healing would Jman. I love Jman and respect him and like him as a man, but if Jman was pastoring an assembly and was preaching for Christians to embrace his idea of a moratorium on trusting Jesus in any situation that could be considered a 'death door experience', I wouldn't be fellowshiping there. And as to reproving, rebuking, and showing them the light...well, we saw how well that went, he never received any of what was shared with him and decided to take leave of us. I did just say this in the above post... "If any of Malcolm Webber's congregation lived by me I'd treat them just like I believe them to be, brothers and sisters in The Lord."
james wrote on Sun, 22 April 2012 21:11 Almost every time I write down some of my thoughts I wonder if I am thorough enough and am I coming across as I intend. Many times I find myself exasperated in my inability to express myself as I desire...then there are times when I'm not sure where I'm going half way through a post(lost train of thought<grin>) You, William come across as a bit exasperated with me...LOL (sorry for your wasted half day) I don't recall ever saying that I don't consider people who don't believe as I do unsaved or not redeemed, I sure hope not. I also love others as best I know how(that would be by the actions I take concerning them...not just words.) A recent example of dealing with someone who has decided to no longer believe and obey The Lord in regards to divine healing would Jman. I love Jman and respect him and like him as a man, but if Jman was pastoring an assembly and was preaching for Christians to embrace his idea of a moratorium on trusting Jesus in any situation that could be considered a 'death door experience', I wouldn't be fellowshiping there. And as to reproving, rebuking, and showing them the light...well, we saw how well that went, he never received any of what was shared with him and decided to take leave of us. I did just say this in the above post... "If any of Malcolm Webber's congregation lived by me I'd treat them just like I believe them to be, brothers and sisters in The Lord." Sorry about sounding exasperated!! You should know me well enough by now to know that half the things I say when I get going is to myself... my old self that is... the one who had all of those stinking attitudes! I'm quite certain that you'd show nothing but love to any one of those we are talking about. I'm not sure I could say the same thing that you say about jman though, not that he would ever want the mantle of leadership, (or maybe he would, I don't know) but speaking theoretically, if he had a local charismatic assembly close to where I lived, I think that I would have to practice what I've been preaching and show up. I'd say the same thing about you, Mark, even Gillyann & Sage <grin!!>. (It would be a little tougher if I had to wade through a lot of legalism though... maybe I'd need to think about that some more... oh consistency, thou art a jewel!!) I think I understand jman's burden though, even if I can't agree with his stance. I mean, it's not like he isn't a brother like the rest of you all and it would be nice to fellowship with someone that had a common background. He'd know where I was coming from and I'd know where he stood and if we could worship together, then I'd consider that better than worshiping with those that I hardly know, and who hardly know me. I think the unspoken elephant in the room is that thing we call ecumenicism... maybe we need to clear the air and define these things we've been talking about more clearly so that we aren't having a knee-jerk reaction to something that is not being implied. Sue asked about Jesus' prayer "that they all may be one" and so far I've taken that to mean the opposite of separation, and stated that I believe it includes all who are redeemed. If ya'll are taking it to mean something else please enlighten me! Blessings, William
James said: "I think it's one thing when a ministry/minister hasn't achieved perfection in their doctrine or practice (hey, neither have I)and one can gleen from them. But when they have(as is the case with some of the above mentioned former FA ministers) turned away from clear teaching from The Word(specifically divine healing, pagan holidays...) and encourage others to do so, what position should a Christian take?" I believe the christian should run away from some of these as fast as they can. There have been ministers who have brought in false prophets,(Paul Cain and Bob Jones)and been in agreement with the doministist theology people(Mike Bickle and Vineyard,) endorsed and was a part of the revival at Pensacola, those who lied and said no one told them of the deception that the Kansas City prophets and ministers were bringing in to deceive the church. There are some who have mocked and made fun of those who are striving to walk in all the truth. There are those who instead of encouraging one to trust God, want a moratorium on faith for healing. I won't even call it extreme faith, because it is just faith. Now we know that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17. So it isn't a hit and miss thing, but rather a relationship with the one whom purchased it for us, and an unwavering trust that He who promised is able to deliver. One other thing we should do is pray for them, that God would free them from the deception that they have embraced and are promoting. John 17 speaks of walking in truth, and I believe that is the basis for the fellowship we have with others. It is certainly based on love for the brethren and the doing good unto all men. It is sharing the good news of salvation and how the word of God is truth. It is walking as Jesus walked, ministering to those to whom would receive it, striving to be blameless in this wicked world, and glorifying God in all we think, say and do. I haven't achieved this yet, and have failed miserably at times, but I still trust that Jesus prayer will be fulfilled in me.
Both you and James have given me a lot to think about. It might be profitable to think about this: We have 5 or 6 active participates here on this board. All of us have a similar background. All of us are saved. All of us have different doctrinal positions on various things. Now if we can't come to agreement on what being one with Jesus and each other means (not to mention actually walking in that oneness) and can't settle on the question as to where we would gather together as a church body if we lived on the same block, then I want to say that our problems are much greater than the denominational church has ever had. At least they can rally two or three together so as to have enough of a quorum for Jesus to be in their midst. This is a serious problem for us. Blessings, William
William, I don't see that we don't agree on what Jesus prayed as we have only had a few comments. There is such depth to that prayer and I don't believe that a couple comments has exhausted what it means to be one with Jesus. Who said we couldn't get together as a church body? I would love to fellowship with you and your wife, James and some others that post on this forum, and many that just read and don't post. I have thought many times how much I would like to go to Alabama and visit all of you, but I take care of my mother and cannot get away. Maybe when she is with the Lord I can come down. I don't see the serious problem, unless it is that I don't want anything to do with those who walked among us and taught, but now have been deceiving people. God's word is pretty clear on false teachers and deceivers. We don't want to partake of the false revivals and bizarre manifestations that are out there, but yet we can learn from those who were among us and now teach deception? Did God send some of these a strong delusion that they should be a lie? I still think this can be a good discussion because there is so much to Jesus prayer, but can't James or myself, or anyone else disagree with what some of the old ministers teach now? I have alot of respect for you and James and Mark and Ron, and others who post, so where else would I want to go to get christians answers to what John 17 means?
Sage wrote on Mon, 23 April 2012 12:56 William, I don't see that we don't agree on what Jesus prayed as we have only had a few comments. There is such depth to that prayer and I don't believe that a couple comments has exhausted what it means to be one with Jesus. Who said we couldn't get together as a church body? I would love to fellowship with you and your wife, James and some others that post on this forum, and many that just read and don't post. I have thought many times how much I would like to go to Alabama and visit all of you, but I take care of my mother and cannot get away. Maybe when she is with the Lord I can come down. I don't see the serious problem, unless it is that I don't want anything to do with those who walked among us and taught, but now have been deceiving people. God's word is pretty clear on false teachers and deceivers. We don't want to partake of the false revivals and bizarre manifestations that are out there, but yet we can learn from those who were among us and now teach deception? Did God send some of these a strong delusion that they should be a lie? I still think this can be a good discussion because there is so much to Jesus prayer, but can't James or myself, or anyone else disagree with what some of the old ministers teach now? I have alot of respect for you and James and Mark and Ron, and others who post, so where else would I want to go to get christians answers to what John 17 means? I certainly agree that we would need much more than a few notes to plumb the depths of that great prayer! But, as we offer a few superficial thoughts, we can determine a few things. 1) Jesus desires us to be one in a manner that He and the Father are one. 2) His prayer is for His redeemed to be one, i.e. not the world. 3) He's not praying that deceivers and false teachers are to be included in this group. I take those points and conclude from them that *ALL* Christians are to be included in this group. Since all Christians are not completely settled on every doctrinal point, i.e. not all are walking in all of the truth, I stated that I believe that we are called to be one regardless of whether or not there is complete agreement on our doctrine (or truth). This oneness is based upon love. This oneness is the opposite of separation. If I'm right then most of us, or maybe I'll just use myself as an example, have been working against the prayer of Jesus. Separation is, or has been, a defining characteristic of our circles. Since separation is also a valid scriptural principle we ought to clarify what it is that we are to separate from while at the same time being true to the prayer of Jesus. Earlier notes deal with that particular issue. I have no problem placing false teachers, and deceivers completely outside of the discussion--they are not included in the group that Jesus is praying for. He prays for the redeemed. In the past we tended to place anyone who didn't go along with our 'light' on non-salvation issues, as:_______. (fill in the blank). 1. Not Saved 2. Saved 3. Deceivers 4. Deceived Depending on the degree of our zeal our answers might vary somewhat but my understanding at this point is that options 2 & 4 are included in the prayer of Jesus. Quote: I still think this can be a good discussion because there is so much to Jesus prayer, but can't James or myself, or anyone else disagree with what some of the old ministers teach now? Who said anything about agreeing with something that an old teacher has said? There is a whole other thread dealing with that very subject. I don't agree with a lot of what those teachers have taught. You may put them in the category that removes them from the ranks of the redeemed... if so, fine, I would not expect anyone to fellowship with such a one... BUT if they ARE in the ranks of the redeemed then I think that Jesus' prayer is applicable. Can we be 'one' with them if they are saved? If not, then why not? If not now, then what steps are we taking to get to the point where it can be a reality? Blessings, William
I came across this web site yesterday and found it encouraging. The instrumental worship music playing is uplifting as well. I didn't search out their every doctrinal belief to see if they were worthy of my visit <tongue in cheek?> because it was obivious that we were of like faith with the same burden shared by many, for the Body of Christ to be one in Him with agape love one for another. I did get reminded yesterday that it isn't our doctrines that saves us; it's faith in Jesus Christ...and it's by our doctrines, opps, I mean it's by our LOVE one for another that all men will know we're His disciples. http://www.b4prayer.org/index14.html
Hi James, Thanks for sharing that site, it was very edifying. This was kind of what I was looking for. To have the promise to be one with the Lord, what a tremendous promise, now to learn to walk in the everyday aspect of this. Gotta go, more later.
John 17:21&23 I Corinthians 1:10 "So how do we apply the above scriptures in our daily lives?" Back to the original question, and how does the Body of Christ become one(walk in unity). I keep being refered to Ephesians 4:13...Until we all come in the unity of the faith..." It's obivious that we (meaning the Body of Christ throught the whole earth) haven't came into the unity of the faith(not meaning 'the faith message', per say but the message of God's Word, The Gospel, the good news, Jesus Christ who is returning to gather together in ONE all things in Christ Eph.1:9-10) I've read that there are 38,000 various denominations and splinter groups from all these denominations today; I haven't counted but there are many, for sure. Why? It mostly comes down to inability to see eye to eye on the uniformity of doctrine. This is a quote from a very well known theologian and Bible teacher; "Oneness in fellowship is impossible unless it is built on the foundation of commonly believed truth." I believe this is a true statement, yet it doesn't solve the problem. The scriptures above and following Eph.4:13 tells how we are brought into unity. But we know it hasn't happened yet, and even though the few of us that express ourselves on this forum get along, we have differences of views and interpretation of biblical principles and truths. Yes we agree on the basics of the Christian faith, as does almost all the denominations...And I'm just wondering, has there ever been a time since Jesus prayed that prayer that The Body of Christ/the chusrch/assembly/bride has been in unity and one? Is it possible that it won't happen until we're glorified?(just asking, I'm not a theologian) So did me writing this get us any closer, I doubt it. A brother shared with me yesterday that in his 'opinion' forums, by and large, were just filled with peoples opinions(paraphrased). I'd always hoped that we came across to the readers(and each other) with a bit more substance and strong Biblical backing to our 'opinions', but in the end it is what it is, our views and interpretations of God and His Word. Speaking for myself only, I've gotten a lot from the sharing of convictions and interaction with fellow believers here on OO, and value the brothers and sisters I've come to love and know here.
Quote: I've read that there are 38,000 various denominations and splinter groups from all these denominations today; I haven't counted but there are many, for sure. Why? It mostly comes down to inability to see eye to eye on the uniformity of doctrine. This is a quote from a very well known theologian and Bible teacher; "Oneness in fellowship is impossible unless it is built on the foundation of commonly believed truth." I believe this is a true statement, yet it doesn't solve the problem. The scriptures above and following Eph.4:13 tells how we are brought into unity. That is true, doctrine does seem to be what separates those 38,000 or so (probably more!) But consider this... (and I don't believe that it contradicts that theologian's statement <wink>) while it is true that denominations separate over doctrine and the charismatics are just like the denominations only they add in some experiences to the mix, all of these separations occur because of a primary assumption--we are right... they are wrong. No one, in my opinion, would separate because of a presumption--we are wrong... they are right, or even we are right and they are right. Can you imagine the Baptists saying that the Methodists are right but we are going to separate anyway? (Same with any sectarian group, charismatic or otherwise.) But what happens if the issue is not a salvation issue? A group, any group, believing in the foundational truth that Jesus died and was resurrected for their sins --the gospel message of being saved by grace and not by works and, beginning with this truth, sets out to put into practice Jesus' prayer that we all be one, will find it difficult to separate from others who are of the redeemed. See 2John1:9 Quote: 2Jn1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2Jn1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 2Jn1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. Are not all divisions (apart from this foundational truth) considered as following after a party spirit? (With the obvious exceptions that Paul mentions with reference to Church discipline, i.e. those who practice adultery, fornication, idolatry, etc..) I challenge everyone to examine 1 Corinthians 1-4 and tell me your opinion on this matter. If my 'opinion' is not right about this then let me know where it is wrong so that I can change my view and be right! I've tried to present my case by basing it on the Word of God and so far I've seen nothing that would indicate that separation from other redeemed Christians is scriptural. We separate because we feel that we have light on subjects that others do not have (not talking about salvation issues here). We took the theologian's statement and applied it to any deviation from *all* of the doctrinal positions of FA whether they were salvation issues or not; even wood, hay, and stubble issues, were treated as if the doctrine of Christ was being violated. Beyond those passages that tell us to separate from any 'brother' that persists in clearly defined sin (which is proper Church discipline) the biblical exhortation is to not divide into separate parties. Am I missing something? Blessings, William
"Am I missing something?" No, in reading God's Word we see this to be the pattern the church is to follow; YET... It doesn't work in real time, we know it doesn't because apart from our (mine) own experiences, just look around in christendom. Then there are our experiences(mine), I don't know about anyone else(though I would imagine ya'll to be much like me in this regard) but when I am part of an assembly I am 'all in'. But then you never can be because once you explain/share/declare that you believe it's wrong to...celebrate xmass/eastar; sit in the auditorium as santa claus walks down the alsle to the fir tree sitting on stage; join in the blood drive/help with the organizing of the flu shot campaign; buy tickets for the church lottery to help raise funds for the childrens trip to Disneyworld; support the position of the other men/leaders of the assembly in borrowing money to build a new building; pass out political propaganda and wear a button that says 'get out and vote'; go to the state capitol and protest the 10 commandments being removed; salute the american flag as it is proudly carried down the alsles of the church; agree to sign a tithing 'pledge' for the coming year; voice your concerns about the way women are dressing; voice your concerns to the pastor about the ethical problem you have with him hiding from the congegation the fact that he is seeking to refinance the building and once it's done sell it and close the church...I haven't even mentioned the 'slain in the spirit', false prophets and prophecies, doctrinal errors...they seem to look at you in a different way. These aren't made up examples, I dealt with all of them plus others. I was told I needed to get set free, and forget the **** Hobart Freeman taught, plant some seeds and cut people some slack. I just can't believe that my experience is that unique, that's fairly close to what goes on at many charismatic assemblies today...plus so much more that is miles away from the example of a NT assembly as shown in The Word. But I believe there's saved people there as well as the First __________ church on every corner. So what do we do? Call for a moratorium on walking in the light we've been given, or just decide that was just a man's personal opinion and jump in? I can't see that as the way to go for the sake of becoming 'one' with all professing the name of Jesus. Somehow I believe it MUST be a work of The Holy Spirit...when? I can't say...
Quote: But then you never can be because once you explain/share/declare that you believe it's wrong to... --go to the state capitol and protest the 10 commandments being removed; What???... And you call yourself a Christian? <grin> Seriously though, I enjoyed your post. It highlights the fact that our experience doesn't match up with our theology. Either our theology is wrong or our experience is wrong. Our FA theology says that the oneness is based upon the doctrinal positions we take and as you've pointed out there is no one who has exactly the same doctrinal positions on every thing. That means that we draw an arbitrary line somewhere and decide that we can go this far (our subjective line) and still be in unity. Step over the line and we separate, i.e. we can't be 'one' under most circumstances. Since it isn't working, the suggestion of a moratorium on oneness might be necessary... (Jman, I want to thank you for your contribution to our otherwise hum-drum solutions-selections department. <grin>) At the very least we have scriptural grounds for redemption being the line and love being the reason to pursue oneness with the saints. The matter becomes complicated when we add things like holidays, political involvement, medical science involvement, etc. into things worth separating over. Oh well... Blessings, William
Isn't it wonderful to be alive today? After reading back over some of the threads going on I've realized that my notes are increasingly morose in their outlook. I'm really not a gloomy kind of guy so I want to say that these issues are only marginally affecting my life. Maybe I should have more of a burden --but I don't at this time. That said, let me present a little scenario that is not to be taken too seriously... Think about what it would be like to live on a block where we had Brenneman's, and Webber's church on one side of the street (Chosen because they represent, at least in my own perception, the two extremes in our experience) On the other side of the street we have a Baptist Church (to represent the protestants) an Episcopal Church and a Catholic Church (to round out the sample). We live in the little cul-de-sac at the end of the block. Beyond our little world, just across the highway, is the rest of the world filled with areas like Macadonia and Corinth that have yet to hear the gospel. You can probably guess where I'm going so I'll spare you the rest of the details except to say that, without adding more options, what would we do on the Lord's day if we all lived on the block? 1) Perpetually visit some or all of the Churches 2) Pick one and stick with the choice 3) Knock on Jman's door and invite him for coffee 4) Head over to Macadonia and start a new work 5) Stay home and read the Bible (or mow the grass) Obviously each one of us would 'seek the Lord' and that would be a given, but in lieu of any special revelation and based upon your present knowledge of the Word, which option would you be more inclined to choose? Remember, this is only to lighten things up a bit and maybe help us to clarify our own mindsets. I'm heading over to Jman's this Sunday, anyone want to come along? <grin> Blessings, William
William wrote: " what would we do on the Lord's day if we all lived on the block? 1) Perpetually visit some or all of the Churches 2) Pick one and stick with the choice 3) Knock on Jman's door and invite him for coffee 4) Head over to Macadonia and start a new work 5) Stay home and read the Bible (or mow the grass)" Personally I would be in the 5 catagory with a few things added: Listen to a tape, listen to Times Square Church, listen to an old Dave Wilkerson message, go fishing(no golf on Sunday, too many people) or just invite some people over for a cookout after they get out of their church service(provided they go.) Since God places us in the church body He wants, I can't just attach myself to someplace, nor do I want to. Can't start a new work because unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain. Wouldn't mind fellowshipping with Jman and his family. William wrote: "After reading back over some of the threads going on I've realized that my notes are increasingly morose in their outlook. I'm really not a gloomy kind of guy so I want to say that these issues are only marginally affecting my life. Maybe I should have more of a burden --but I don't at this time." Agree with you here. I have been blessed with alot of what you have written over the years, but sometimes I think things have become too negative. To me it seems like some people(not saying you) just look for the opportunity to criticize Faith Assembly and Brother Freeman, get in little digs whenever possible. I don't come to this site to continually hear little inuendo's about all the "discernment" some have about the past. It has been well established that Faith Assembly and Brother Freeman weren't perfect, and there was some legalism, but to continually bring this up seems wrong. Probably alot of people who come to this site don't even know who Brother Freeman was, so instead of edifying them with some of the deeper truths God has given us, some continually have to throw in little jabs. God's word tells us to guard our heart with all diligence, so when some of us don't want to follow just any ministry or go to just any church it seems like some have problems with this. I like being edified by sharing and discussing what God is doing in our lives, and what He shows us in His word and by the Holy Spirit. I don't need to hear anymore about how bad Faith Assembly was, or how wrong Brother Freeman was, because he was a whole lot more right than wrong. When we need faith for something, we can thank God that Brother Freeman was brought into our lives, I know I will be eternally grateful for this, as will my family.
Al-righty then Bro William, since you don't want this to be too serious here's what I'd do on a Sunday in 'our' hypothetical neighborhood. I would take a ball, bat, and a couple gloves over to Joe's church and invite the poor little kids to come out after service and let me teach them how to play baseball. Maybe the next Sunday I'd drop in on Malcolm and give my testimony of what extreme faith has worked in my life over the last 30 years. I guess I'd just have to swing by Jman's place to see if we can communicate a little better in person cause it didn't work so well via internet. I'd try to get to the grass on a Saturday if possible, and if the car and house is clean I just may ease by Sue's house and see if she'd like to learn how to grill southern style...lol Macadonia? Don't you have to take vaccine shots to travel outside the neighorhood? Last time I ventured over there somebody slashed my tires...I heard they have drug dealers and prostitutes over there... my Baptist buddy said he was talking to the Apostle from the Word of Faith church last week and he said the Catholic folks prayed to Mary and asked her to get rid of all the people living in the community who believed in evangelism ...LOL OK, back to reality, I'm going to go out on my balcony, sit in my swing, snack on an apple and peanut butter, and finish reading a baseball book written by John Grisham titled, Calico Joe. Maybe I'll lend it to Joe B. when I finish. LOL See! I do have sense of humor... And YES, it is wonderful to be alive, today.
James, I would love to learn how to grill southern style! I don't remember what holiday you grilled ribeye steak and I believe sweet potatoes, but that sure did sound good. Ribeye steak is my favorite, and having it grilled southern style and the other things that go with a southern dinner would be great! Maybe someday when I make it down to your part of the country. If you ever make it up this way, stop by our camp site for a surf and turf dinner. Fish caught out of the Muskegon River and ribeye steak, along with asparagus, grilled potatoes, tomatoes, lemonade and the wonderful sights and sound of the outdoors. Maybe even a canoe or kayak ride on the river, and a bike ride into town for ice cream!
You're my kind of guy, James! Even in a light hearted way stuff like this helps us to think through some of our positions. I selected the options in order to help define our priorities. For instance, going into Macedonia was an option that we probably wouldn't make unless we had a supernatural experience with someone calling out --"come over and help us!". Lumping Corinth in with this option would open us up to more of a scriptural mandate (i.e. not a supernatural revelation) that says we are to go into all of the world. (Either one would indicate an evangelistic bent, though.) The Baptist option presents us with a grand opportunity to take our theology and perhaps effect a change. This is possible because *generally* the Baptists take the bible as a guide for their lives. Obviously there would be a gold-mine of opportunity to take what we've learned and attempt to further the truths of the Gospel. That might be a bit more of a challenge in the high-church traditions but who knows, someone among us might be that odd adventurous soul that would relish tearing down the idols! Going to Goshen probably wouldn't be too bad (probably wouldn't call the elders in a trial) but I suspect that the worship wouldn't be too bad and a lot of the messages I've heard are pretty biblical. Warsaw would be an option if they'd have me but I don't think that I could sit through 3 or 4 straight weeks (hour + sermons) on the subject of TV. Simply saying that TV is bad and that we should judge for ourselves whether or not to have one (since no one is making rules) is about a 20 second sermon... tops. (Same goes for music, dress, and sports!) The option to meet with others from here, whether it would turn into something regular or not, would be pretty cool. We all need somewhere to exercise the gifts that God has given to us although I'll have to say that I'm an expert when it comes to staying home. I think that I can say confidently that I wouldn't fear for my spirituality by choosing any of the options. Of course that is with the understanding that each situation would require different degrees of participation. In other words I wouldn't be 'all in' to the same degree in each situation. Blessings, William
James wrote: "A brother shared with me yesterday that in his 'opinion' forums, by and large, were just filled with peoples opinions(paraphrased). I'd always hoped that we came across to the readers(and each other) with a bit more substance and strong Biblical backing to our 'opinions', but in the end it is what it is, our views and interpretations of God and His Word. Speaking for myself only, I've gotten a lot from the sharing of convictions and interaction with fellow believers here on OO, and value the brothers and sisters I've come to love and know here." I would agree with you James, I too have gotten alot out of OO. I have been challenged, encouraged, edified, admonished, and blessed with what people have written. I believe those who come here have been given some very good theological insights, and also some words from the Lord to encourage and give hope to those who are down. I thank God for Overcomers Online. We certainly don't always agree, but the heart of people on here is to be conformed into the image of Christ, and walk as He walked, to love others, and share what we have received from the Lord. To strive to fulfil the prayer of Jesus in John 17, that "they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." May God continue to bless Overcomers Online, those who post and those who read.