Can You Name One Unique Doctrine from Hobart Freeman
My wife and I were talking this morning and she asked this question: Was there anything that brother Freeman taught that was unique? I know that he had a unique compilation of material that became known as "the teaching", but aside from the uniqueness of the compilation was there any new revelation that was unique to Faith Assembly? Not new in the sense that it didn't line up with the Bible but new from the standpoint of Christian tradition. In other words was there anything new that wasn't already held and believed by others at one point or another in the history of the Christian Church? William
Re: Can You Name One Unique Doctrine from Hobart Freeman
Hello, All! It's been pretty hectic around here, so it's been a while since I have posted. I just wanted you to know that I've still got nothing but love for you. In addition, the bank that I work for announced a merger two weeks ago, so that will consume a lot of my time over the next several months. I wanted to post a question, and this thread seemed to be the most logical location. The Factnet board has had a discussion around the Rubiks cube, and the way a lot of FA folks reacted to it. My question is two fold: 1) Do you remember other things similar to the Rubik's cube in which people took issue; and 2) How did people come up with these ideas, and why did they catch on? In an answer to my own question, here is what I remember: My family was only allowed to play board games that used cards to tell you how many spaces you could move. Games that used dice were forbidden. As an adult, this seems pretty silly, because you were still leaving it up to chance when you drew a card. Secondly, I think some people thrived on being the "discoverer" of some new "evil." It was almost as if they found a buried treasure when they discovered that something may have some sort of tie to the occult or the world. I think Dr. Freeman started it with the Nike shoes being named after a Greek god. After that, I think people went on a demonic "scavenger hunt" looking for anything that may currently have a tie (or had a tie thousands of years ago) to something that seemed evil. People started looking at games, looking at nursery rhymes, brand names, etc. etc. As a Christian adult now, I just can't seem to understand how grown men and women could take things to the nth degreee. Especially since Dr. Freeman didn't addres most of these issues. Just a few thoughts for discussion. Have a great day, Duncan
Hi Duncan, I know what you mean... one of the things that I remember when we first moved up were cakes (being round was supposed to signify something or another?). I believe it was brother Freeman who nixed that one and admonished us that if we look hard enough we could probably find occultic ties to much of what we do and we shouldn't take things to the extreme. Then, after cakes were pronounced ok, candles came in for some serious slamming! However, the prohibition against games (playing cards, dice, etc.) was not unique to FA. Many church-going people frown upon these activities, especially here in the south. Brother Freeman said we (Christians) tended to be little Catholics at heart always wanting a list of do's and don't's (I'll need to get hombre to punctuate the dos and donts (as I was snatched away from my educational pursuits at a tender age (we were slated to study possessives and parentheticals that day.) <g>) (I'm editing this because my last closing parenthesis turned into a stupid (but hopefully not occult) smiley face (after posting) simply because I put a ":" (semi-colon) before the closing ) but I think I can close it properly by adding two here )) As far as why these things caught on... perhaps it was simply that we all wanted desperately to please the Lord and no price was too great for us to pay. I'm sure that more examples will come to mind after a good night of sleep but I'm drawing a blank right now. Blessings, William
Quote: So then, the gravity of something said, bore far more weight, than that of Joe Preacher from First Church. Now, whether Hobart actually said something either negative or positive, doesn't matter once people decide to start diffusing their private interpretation of whatever was said throughout the audience.... ... and the fact is ( as Steve Hill used to love to say) 'People hear what they want to hear'. Or, as I would say: Everyone sees the world through their own color of glass. You've hit the nail on the head here. I know Duncan and his family spent time fellowshipping with the Freemans, but this wasn't the case for the vast majority of the members. Brother Freeman (for good reasons) was an isolated individual and I contend to this day that he wasn't aware of a lot of the legalistic, condemning, judgmental, shunning that went on when the taboo-chamber-pot (that never got emptied) splashed on someone. He did foster the atmosphere by emphasizing "doing the Word" (a good thing) which in practice became a mandate to conform to the FA culture. This culture (the holy grail you mentioned) took on a life of its own and much of it outside the purview of HEF. Quote: Word-smithing. Someone decides to use a word to twist others opinions in the direction of the writer/ speaker...and others who either share the same viewpoint, or who are simply naive and impressionable latch onto it, and that's where the community wave effect begins. Yes... I remember once, while at work, saying something like "I wish..." which was immediately rebuked by a brother. My only recourse was to point out that Brother Freeman used the word "wish" in his OT Prophets book. (I don't have the reference but I believe he said something like "one could wish" that there were some scholarly work available-or something like that!) Thus I was able to escape the splashing of the bucket by appealing, not to the Word of God, but to HEF! Blessings, William
By the way Hombre, I haven't forgotten about our cassette to mp3 conversion project... I'll lend you a set of End-time Events/Day of the Lord as soon as it is finished. There are 11 tapes in the series and I'm almost through converting them. I believe I've found a way to convert them double time using the high-speed recording function and then changing the speed back to normal after they are digitized. The series has provoked some thoughts that I'll post soon. I'm compiling a list of HEF tapes that we have and I'll send it to you and we can compare notes! Blessings, William
Hombre, You never cease to amaze me with your arrogance. One of your last quotes really bothers me. While I am on the fence about much in theology(sometime that I believe HEF had a message on one time). You really like to rail against us in the younger generation. Quote: Or here is another favorite: 'The children suffered needless while the adults got some kind of relegious junkie high out of it ' . I believe it was you also who referred to us as " I see the brats are back" We children did suffer before I had turned 20 I had watched my brother struggle to breath and die, I had watched my Grandmother rithing with pain for six months dying of cancer while my grandfather kept casting demons out of her and kept talking about how much better of a wife she would be once she was better since she was ridden of all of these demons and then to be told at 11 years old that she wasn't going to heaven because she had spent her last day alive in a hospital. Then it wasn't less then 10 years later I watched my younger sister almost die of JD. This was all before the age of 21. We were made fun of at school due to our religious beliefs, which in the Christian walk there will be persecution, but persecution for following Christ not because all the girls had to wear skirts down to their ankles or the boys couldn't where this or that or do this or that. The the assemblykid you are referring to I grew up with and knew, to see what the he has gone through pains me and for you to sit here and knock him and those like him is sickening. Many of us grew up in FA and that was all we knew and once we quit going we really didn't know what to believe, parents divorced families were torn apart, etc. (My parents stayed together fortunately, but they don't go to church anymore either, or even talk about it) So as kids we went from one extreme to the other and for many of us it was in a short period of time. You had a normal childhood so to speak I assume, it is hard for you to comprehend what we dealt with as young children and teenagers going through our formative years. I have said it before, Dr. Freeman theologically on most issues I can't disagree with biblically but somewhere along the line something went drastically wrong within the church and a leader should if he is a true leader bear some responsibility for that. What really pains me is many of the kids my age. With the exception of Duncan, I don't know of any of them that go to church or have any inclination to. My feeling is that if FA was so good and so right, these kids that grew up in it wouldn't be so turned off on church.
In regards to the Rubiks Cube, dice and other items like it. As children we did as we were told by our parents, we didn't have the option to discern what was legalism and what was scripture. Eph 6:1 "1Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2"Honor your father and mother"—which is the first commandment with a promise— 3"that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth."[a] 4Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. " We were not to disagree with anything that our parents said, if they said the Rubiks Cube was full of demons and that they had to get rid of it then we had to take their word for it. To question your parents was a sin and if you sinned you might get chastised by getting sick. It's easy for the adults to set back and say well Dr. Freeman never said that, but the kids didn't know that and it wouldn't matter if we did because we had to obey our parents or they would use the rod. My wife has said to me many times, if I had your childhood I would be in therapy. Myself and many other FA kids drank through our later teen years and early 20's to cope with what we were dealing with. Getting married to a woman from a traditional church is one of the best things that ever happened to me, after I spent most of 5 years trying to find someone that shared similar religious beliefs to FA. She has brought stability and common sense back to my life. It's easy to criticize and put down those whose shoes you've never been in.
Looks like I have struck a nerve!!! Hey if you don't want people to rail at you then maybe you should stop referring to us as brats and weak. You haven't lived through what we did. You might want to follow your own advice. I am just offering an explanation to why some of us don't choose to follow what you still cling to. I haven't seen much recent railing against the Bible it has been against FA, which many of us have a reason to do. So you can spend the rest of your life alone on the internet having theological discussions with yourself and the few co-horts that you have here while the rest of us get on with our lives. I have never said that I was a complete unbeliever I have said that I believe there is a God and beyond that I'm on the fence. Enjoy your life in theological discussions, I choose to make a difference in others lives. Hey maybe you can join the pharisees and saduccees, they liked to sit around and do the same thing. While Jesus and the Apostles were actively helping improve the lives of others. Maybe it is cliche but WWJD. It wouldn't be sitting behind a keyboard of a computer arrogantly bragging about their theological opinions.
Well Cougar it seems as if nerves on both sides have been hit. I don't know if you've read the threads here, but we have not avoided the bad and ugly. The theological issues that we discuss have *everything* to do with the practical. We, unlike some, know that the basis for practical Christian living can only be found in the theological realm. I submit to you that the apparent failures of your parents (and any of us for that matter) can be traced to faulty theology. Theology isn't some ivory-tower pursuit. If some want to make it that, then perhaps they will end up with a head full of knowledge and an empty heart. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to be "on the fence" concerning theology. From the moment one picks up the Bible and begins to read he is being theologically educated. You said you believe that God exists. If he exists, you would think that He would reveal Himself to His creation. I submit that He has, and it is in the pages of the Bible we learn about Him. If we choose to learn about Him and His ways we acquire a theological education. The first thing we can learn is that through Adam's sin we lost the ability to fellowship with God. Read on and you'll find that God took the first step in restoring that fellowship. You'll find that the reason for the loss of fellowship was not simply that God was miffed because the first couple disobeyed, but it was one of His attributes (more theological education here) that came into play. We know from reading the account that He was a loving God, He created beings that were in His own likeness. But Adam and Eve could not really appreciate the other aspects of His nature until they had sinned... I doubt they knew much at all about the "Justice" or "Holiness" of God until they experienced it. Lo and behold, after experiencing these aspects they were re-introduced to the Love of God as He began to show them that an innocent victim MUST die for them to continue to live. God continued to show more and more about Himself though the Cain and Abel account... He was giving them (and by example-us) a theological education. Some sought to know Him and please Him but sadly most did not. He continually revealed more about Himself and continued to bless those whose hearts would take-hold of the theology. Ultimately this theological training culminated with Jesus' death on the Cross--the perfect innocent enduring the just/holy requirements of God so that we might be able to experience the other aspects of His nature. Throughout the NT this theological training continued, some got it, others did not. For those who did receive Him (His revelation of Himself--His theological teaching if you will!) to those He gave the power to become the sons of God. If you need a reference for the above statement it is found in Jhn 1:12 Quote: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: In fact, if you want to get off of the fence you'll find that the first chapter of the book of John is an excellent place to start. I happen to believe that HEF was an instrument that God used in my life to help me to view theology as a necessity of life--just as food is necessary for the physical life. Perhaps it would be helpful to throw out the term "theology" (if it bothers you) and just read the term as learning about God; that is what it means. So if you have a problem with Hombre, me, and others learning about God, then I'd say that your problem is pretty deep and goes beyond a mere hatred of FA and borders on a hatred of God's revelation of Himself to mankind. I've read almost all of Hombre's posts and cannot find one defense of the misguided FA'ers who screwed up not only their own lives but other's (including their kids). What I do find is a consistent message to those who blame everyone but themselves for the shape of their lives. He has practically begged for someone to produce evidence where HEF was theologically wrong (or where HEF's teaching about God was wrong.) We and others have produced cases where our own understanding and our own application of doctrine were, in many cases, seriously flawed. These things we readily admit and choose to examine more closely our own theological underpinnings so that mistakes in the future will hopefully be at a minimum--but we have moved on with our lives. We don't blame others for our *present* situation. If I wanted I could blame my parents for not training me in the ways of God but I know it wouldn't pass muster with God (I've read the Book). Hombre hasn't told you anything that a 12-step program wouldn't start with--that being that you must take responsibility for your own life or you will *never* move beyond your problem. What is wrong with that? God never watered it down when He told Cain what was needful and I'm *ABSOLUTELY* certain that He would not have let Cain get away with blaming ole mom and dad for his troubles. Think about this. And if there is any way I can help you, I'll do my best to do so. Blessings, William
Moulder, I don't have a problem with you or Hombre or others learning about God, that's fine and I don't have a hatred for FA or HEF. Never have never will, what I have a problem with is this constant defense of FA and HEF that he didn't know what was going on or he was an isolated man or he didn't say that. That is what I have a problem with. The assemblykid's dad was one of the 5 fold ministers, so the items he mentioned came straight from the mouth of one of the individuals in the pulpit. Too much blame is placed on the congregation by individuals like Hombre. This is what I have a problem with. If you're the leader of a corporation and it goes belly up, who takes the fall? The CEO typically. Why is HEF exempt from this is my question. He was not God and therefore did make mistakes. Theologically you can't disagree with him, but not everything that came out of his mouth out of the pulpit was in regards to theology. The Bible is pretty clear cut on many issues, many others it is not. So it is not as simple as saying read the Bible. The Bible is pretty clear on prayer for healing, but everyone on both discussion boards goes to the doctors, why? I've gone back and listened to some of the tapes just to listen to them again as an adult, I can't do it I end up talking back to the recorder because many of the comments not taken from scripture were so off the wall in one tape I was listening to from I believe the Collossians series he went on and on about how this song some christian singer had sang was of the devil because it had the word magic in it. Then on another tape he spent 10 minutes bragging about his seminary grades, then at the end he gave a 10 second statement that all the glory to God. Then he proceeded to say that you shouldn't let your kids go to college, they weren't mature enough to discern right and wrong. This was out of the mouth of Hobart, not some member of the congregation. It was this type of scrutiny that led members to do what they did. Hombre really grates at me basically because he reminds me so much of my grandfather who just belittles anyone who is up to the "level of faith" that he is. He(my grandfather) has done nothing to help his kids or grandkids in years, but by God he's in that study everyday. For many of us the only religion/church experience that we had was in FA and much of that was negative, it's not that we are atheists, but when that experience is all we have to associate with that type of thinking, it's not something most of us want to go back to. It's hard to go back to a theology that as children we had many bad memories of. I don't know if that clarifies the position anymore but it is an attempt to do so.
All, I wasn't sure exactly where to post this question, but it sort of fits in with the discussion here. I asked a question of my Sunday School class at church a few months back, and I thought I would drop it on you guys, as well. My question is this: Do you think Jesus and his disciples joked around, played games, etc. Do you think the disciples ever woke up in the morning and made fun of Peter's "bed-head?" Do you think they ever pitched a ball back and forth while they were walking from town to town? Do you think John might have tripped after someone tied his sandals together? Do you think the disciples ever ganged up on James and popped his rear end with their wet towels while they were bathing in river? Perhaps they might have put Judas' hand in a pan of warm water while he was asleep. Do you think Thomas could burp the Hebrew alphabet? I know that if I were with a group of 12 other Christian guys, one of the above would happen at some point in time. Based upon my experience at FA (and what I have observed since that time), people became so bogged down in trying to do the right thing or follow rules that they never felt they were allowed to enjoy life and have some fun. I mentioned it on the other board last year, but I'll mention it again here. My father preached a sermon at FA that was a direct revelation from God. He was in his study working on a sermon and was moved by the spirit to begin writing. When he finished, he had about three or four pages. My mother found these pages a year or so ago and gave them to me to read. This revelation basically stated that it was OK to enjoy each other and to enjoy God's creation. It was OK to laugh and have a good time. Unfortunately, Dr. Freeman didn't want the church to hear that message at that time. He called my father over to his house and stated that everything my father shared in his sermon lined up with scripture. However, he was afraid that people might take it to the extreme (I guess he didn't want people to have too much fun in life.) As such, he ordered my father to get up in front of the church and recall his message and ask everyone to destroy their tapes. My father had more requests for that sermon than any other sermon he preached at FA. That was exactly what the church needed at that time, but the Holy Spirit was quenched by HEF. Something changed in my father after experience. It made him more skeptical about FA and religion. When we finally moved away, he was never able to find a church in which he felt comfortable. As a result, he does not attend anywhere. The whole point of this post is that many Christians have forgotten how to enjoy the life in which God has blessed us. They feel it is more "religious" to always be serious and have their nose in a theology book. Just some food for thought! Have a blessed day! Duncan
Duncan, I couldn't agree with you more. There are many scriptures in the Bible where they apostles, prophets and other biblical characters are getting together and feasting and fellowshipping. When we first started at FA there was a great deal of fellowship, but towards the end when the wheels started falling off the wagon cart most of that stopped as the church buried their noses in the bible to try and determine what demon was in the congregation that was causing all of the deaths. I have a recent example of the problems that I have with FA in regards to some of the ministers. My grandfather was also a minister so much of what I have referred to he has said as well, so to re-iterate again many points I have referenced have come from ministers, so to say it was someone in the congregation that made it up or misinterpreted it is incorrect. My grandfather is still very much a follower of FA, which has cost him most of his family. Anyway here's the tale. He has a neighbor that he shares a property line with, they have been going back and forth arguing about rocks that she has put along the property line for a mark, well they can't agree on where the line goes, so they moved them back and forth when the other wasn't looking after a couple times of doing this, he takes all of the rocks and throws them into the culvert, where they can't be retrieved. His justification was that I didn't steal them or remove them from the property, I just moved them! Not uncommon for neighbors to bicker over property lines, but here's the deal. She's not a christian, he obviously is. He has been trying to witness to her since he moved there. Theologically what he has done is not wrong, but what kind of witness does it give and is this type of behavior going to cause someone to want to believe in Christ? I doubt it. This is the point that I have been trying to make and I haven't been able to make it very well. FA was full of leaders like this and many of the followers are still this way. Theologically what they are doing and saying is not wrong but it doesn't present a good witness to the outside world, it also hinders the great commission. Most non christians do not understand the depths of theology that many of the senior members did and until they had the training education and understanding, the leaders should not look down on them, put them down and belittle them for not being as far in the faith as those that were. I also remember listening to a tape also in the Collossians series in which HEF said, we covered that years ago and if you are new or don't understand, get the tape. It was like he didn't have time for those that weren't up to his level. While he couldn't stay on the basic material forever, he should have realized that there were new people coming all the time that hadn't been there for 10 years and didn't know and understand. This is a fault of the ministers not the congregation. They knocked Sunday School week in and week out, but I believe it serves a purpose, it can be used to give newer members one on one instruction and training to get them to a point where they do understand and comprehend the "meat". Just my thoughts. Thanks Duncan for a good post.
Hi Duncan, I do think that the apostles had a good time together, especially during the three years when they walked with the Lord. However, it is my opinion that there was much less levity from the time of the crucifixion onwards because they each had been given a mission to accomplish. They believed in the imminent return of the Lord and I'm sure much of the focus of their lives centered on preparing the people for His return. Remember, from this time forward there was "great" persecution against the Church and while it wouldn't have been impossible to have "lighter" moments, it was the seriousness of the hour that dictated soberness rather than lightheartedness. It is hard for us to imagine what it was like because not much is recorded concerning the "lighthearted" times, but like you said; when you get twelve brothers together you will have some ribbing going on! Thanks for the thought-provoking post; I mulled over it all weekend! William
Hi Cougar, Ok, lets do it your way and put all of the blame on HEF (after all, without him there would not have been a Faith Assembly). Where does that leave us now in our Christian walk. How much do we throw out (of his doctrine) and how much can we safely retain. Do we simply throw out everything and become an agnostic? Was/is there anything left that we can build with or do we put it all behind us like it never happened? If all the fault can be placed on HEF is he left with anything worthy of credit or should we bury the whole experience and move on and find someone/something that is blameless? Ok, Hobart is the cause of my screwed-up life. Hobart is the reason that, twenty two years after he died, I cannot get my life straightened out. Wow, I'm feeling much better now. Sorry for the sarcasm, but Hombre is on vacation and somebody had to do it! <grin> William
You guys miss the whole point everytime. My question is why do you want to give HEF a pass. I have never said that everything that happened was his fault. But he was the leader of the church and as Duncan and others have stated, he essentially controlled what came out of the pulpit. You have asked for items that don't line up with scripture and we've made several suggestions of items that didn't. You then take it to the other extreme. Maybe it's sarcasm maybe it's not. I'm not blaming HEF or FA for problems in my life. I have moved on, but the issues that I dealt with as a child and as a young adult were a result of the church that I attended as a kid, some of the problems can be attributed to decisions that I made, some my parents and some by incorrect teachings from FA. I'm not saying that I'm not at fault or that my parents aren't either. All I'm saying is that the leadership of FA, shouldn't be exempt from some of the fault. It was their instruction that caused some of the problems, period. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept for some of you to comprehend. If you are a doctor and you give bad medical advice, it is malpractice. Accountants and attorneys have to deal with disclosure, errors and ommissions. Every profession has some level of accountability. Even the denominational churches do. I don't recall that there was anyone other than God that held the senior leaders of FA accountable. That's all. That doesn't mean they are the cause of all the problems, I just don't think that they should be exempt. Come judgement day they will have to answer for their actions just like the rest of us. On the flipside, in moving on I choose not to follow everything that was taught there as to not create the same problems for my kids or myself again.
Well, I may have missed some of your points, but turning it around, you've also missed some of my points. We all have moved on. No one here follows to the letter all that came across the pulpit of FA, however some of us have chosen to hold fast to those things that we believe were the words from God. Bashing FA, or HEF, is a popular pursuit on the internet but to my mind there wasn't any balance being given which is the reason for this forum. I have tried, along with others, to hash out the bad stuff from FA as well as HEF's failings. I readily admit that a culture was created that was not productive (with which you will agree) but the line where we tend to place the blame seems to be the point of disagreement. This line, from your standpoint, goes closer to HEF than my line. My line is closer to the congregation, but let's face it, neither HEF or the congregation escapes blame (or responsibility as you've stated.) So I'm attempting with my sarcasm to show that placing the blame totally on HEF helps us not one wit and by the same token, placing the blame totally on the congregation leaves us with some "splaining" to do as well. If you will look at Hombre's notes, his battle cry for the kids is for them to take responsibility in the "here and now" and quit complaining about the past... on the other hand, the FA kids, see Hombre as "attacking" them personally and at the same time absolving FA/HEF for any responsibility for the situation. I for one, don't see how blaming/accusing people from a movement that took place over twenty years ago is profitable--unless it is being done for the purpose of furthering our present-day walk with God. You've also stated that we are giving HEF and the leadership a pass... I've not done that, just read some of my notes. I have offered my own view concerning HEF by saying that he was out of touch with some of the things going on in FA because he was isolated/insulated from those things. By the way, I don't think the same thing can be said about the other five-fold and perhaps they should share more responsibility than we've laid upon them. I have a profound respect for HEF for a variety of reasons but I certainly don't "give him a pass" for not knowing what was going on... I've attempted to offer an explanation for his being out of touch and not knowing, but eventually, like you've said, he will have to answer for everything he did or did not do concerning his ministry. Blessings, William
I’m just curious about something. Hombre and Moulder place most of the blame on the congregation not on Hobart. Moulder I must disagree with you on what you told Cougar that you held HEF accountable too. Respectfully, I just don’t see it in your posts. Cougar and others hold ‘HEF’ accountable as well as the congregation. Cougar has experienced some things that you guys can’t seem to understand. I’ve run across many (Glory Barn) kids from FA that had the same struggles. You guys just tell him them to “move on”, some compassion. You have no idea what they went through, no idea whatsoever. I read Molder’s exhortations to Cougar to ‘move on’ with his life…… move on? Maybe I’m missing something. Molder why is this website here to begin with, ‘to move on’? Let’s be honest, this web site is for folks who were in Faith Assembly to nostalgically recall their gloriest past... I think Cougar has moved on, he just isn’t buying what you guys are selling, I’m not either. If you guys really moved on you wouldn’t waste your time here starting this web site to begin with. The reality is you’re apologists for Hobart Freeman. Face it guys the man is dead. The so-called five fold ministers are scattered to the 4 winds. Barnett and Hill seem to be the only ones that have continued, but not in HEF’s tradition. Barnett isn’t teaching the ‘whole faith’ message’ anymore. Steve Hill got himself into some borderline heretical stuff called the ‘laughing revival’ movement down in Florida and it seems has moved on to his own traveling minister show. He doesn’t teach the faith message like HEF did either. Freeman wasn’t anointed. He taught orthodoxy very well and made it understandable. I’ll admit he was brilliant in doing that, but then again what do you expect from a professor? He was a lousy Pastor…period. He showed little compassion for his flock. He was suited to teach but not shepherd. When he got into the ‘faith’ message he got into the tall weeds and never made it back. Most of you guys will never wake up and smell the coffee about that. It’s funny you still listen to his tapes, then you turn off your cassette player go to the Doctor, celebrate Christmas, have mortgages, borrow money for a car, have life and health insurance. I’m shaking my head in confusion of where you’re really at with your ‘faith walk’. Do you still believe that you’re going to be one of the 144,000 overcomers? Cougar and I have moved on, you guys really haven’t.
Quote: Hombre and Moulder place most of the blame on the congregation not on Hobart. Moulder I must disagree with you on what you told Cougar that you held HEF accountable too. Respectfully, I just don’t see it in your posts. I think that I've said just that in my post to Cougar. I also tried to show that placing *all* of the blame on HEF would not do one bit of good. What do you want me to do-cry UNCLE? Quote: Cougar and others hold ‘HEF’ accountable as well as the congregation. Cougar has experienced some things that you guys can’t seem to understand. I’ve run across many (Glory Barn) kids from FA that had the same struggles. You guys just tell him them to “move on”, some compassion. You have no idea what they went through, no idea whatsoever. I have no idea beyond what he has publicly stated, this is true. You (or Cougar) have no idea about my situation other than what I've publicly stated, yet when I offer the only solution that I know will work, it is subjected to ridicule. Pray tell what kind of "compassion" am I supposed to offer (beyond what I've done) to an anonymous person on the backwaters of an internet forum?? Please sum it up in your next post and I'll say amen to it. Quote: I read Molder’s exhortations to Cougar to ‘move on’ with his life…… move on? Maybe I’m missing something. Molder why is this website here to begin with, ‘to move on’? Let’s be honest, this web site is for folks who were in Faith Assembly to nostalgically recall their gloriest past... I think Cougar has moved on, he just isn’t buying what you guys are selling, I’m not either. You continue: Quote: If you guys really moved on you wouldn’t waste your time here starting this web site to begin with. The reality is you’re apologists for Hobart Freeman. Face it guys the man is dead. I've made absolutely no secret of why I've created this message area... here, I'll quote myself: Quote: I created this area after reading the messages on factnet.org. I had done an Internet search for some things relating to Faith Assembly / Hobart Freeman and for the most part came up with sites that bashed the movement. I know that there were bad things that happened to a lot of people, but I also know that there was much good that resulted from the teachings we received at Faith Assembly. Hopefully this message board can focus on some of the positive aspects of Hobart Freeman's ministry. Quote: Bitterness abounds concerning FA (and brother Freeman) --just google around and it is everywhere, in fact, that was one of the reasons I created this board... not to stick our heads in the sand and ignore the negative, but so there would be an outlet that would include the positive aspects of FA. So there, it is no secret... just read the opening post. If if irks you that there are those who came away with positive experiences from FA don't bother reading any of my posts cause I'm one that did. Quote: Most of you guys will never wake up and smell the coffee about that. It’s funny you still listen to his tapes, then you turn off your cassette player go to the Doctor, celebrate Christmas, have mortgages, borrow money for a car, have life and health insurance. I’m shaking my head in confusion of where you’re really at with your ‘faith walk’. The above certainly doesn't describe my situation, but if it did would you not consider that these people (you refer to above) have "moved on" in their lives?? Quote: Do you still believe that you’re going to be one of the 144,000 overcomers? I do believe in the message of the overcomers (...er, just check out the header on this page) in fact, this is one of the central themes that has kept me going throughout these many years. If you want to know the exact chronology of the inception of this site, go back to factnet and search for Hombre's note to me concerning the 144,000. That thread encouraged me and lifted me up from the cesspool of discouragement and it was that note more than anything else that prompted me to go ahead and create this site. Do you believe in the overcomer message? William
Cougar was right. You guys just don't get it.
Oh, and I don't believe your going to be one of the 144,000 overcomers. Your a nice man, but you're not one of the 'anointed'. HEF wasn't either. Peace
odysseus wrote on Tue, 20 June 2006 11:30 Oh, and I don't believe your going to be one of the 144,000 overcomers. Your a nice man, but you're not one of the 'anointed'. HEF wasn't either. Peace I take that this is a "yes" to my question as to whether or not you believed in the overcoming message? So, what is your prescription (pun intended) for making the ranks of "overcomer"? William
I’m sorry Moulder, I don't subscribe to Freeman’s overcomer message in the way he presented it. Of course we all as Christians are called on to ‘crucify our flesh’ and overcome. His brand was quite different. The idea of 144,000 overcomers is twisted interpretation of Revelations and Daniel. I think you and I can agree to disagree on that. Much of what goes on for contemporary eschatology is a recent fiction developed by evangelicals over the last century, (in my humble opinion). I would suggest we just concentrate on being good God fearing Christians and forget the terminology about how ‘God fearing’ you are. You’re a good man.
Let me throw this question to odyssesus. In revelation 2 and 3, the promises that Jesus made were to him that overcomes. Nothing is promised to those who do not overcome. Are you an overcomer and what is the evidence that you are? As far as HEF is concerned and his teaching on the overcomers...just because it does not line up with what you have been taught, doesn't mean it isn't so. And how do you know whether Moulder is not anointed? How do you know if HEF was not anointed either? Did you bother to check out what HEF said with scriptures? That is our responsibility as Christians.
I've already been on record so say that as Christians we are all called on to overcome. Persevering to the end is used as well in Scripture. You wanna call yourself ‘preservers’ go ahead, it still won’t make you more special than me or any other believer. Overcomers as taught by Freeman and a few others (as I’ve said before) are described as a special type of ‘super’ Christian. This ‘super’ believer will be supposedly raptured away before the great Tribulation, correct? This super believer will come back during the Great Tribulation and witness, teach and do many miracles. The ‘baby’ Christians will be left down here to go through the Tribulation or at least part of it (according to whose tapes you buy). Unfortunately according to HEF there will be only 144,000 overcomers. Then to make that even more troubling HEF says many overcomers are already in Glory waiting that day. So there is limited seating available for you guys still here on Earth. Better book ahead if you ask me. As an aside this is one of the very things that caused people in Faith Assembly to see themselves as more spiritual than others. Then it became a cancer on them, destroyed them and scattered them to the four winds. As for ‘The Anointing’ this is a term that is way overused today by many contemporary Charismatic and Pentecostal types. Many of who claim this ‘gift’ don’t have a rational knowledge of what this actually is. The Charismatic community is full of men and women who claim to be prophet and prophetess or someone else with the ‘anointing’. It gives those that claim this ‘anointing’ power over others because they’ll claim it and when you question them they’ll say, “Touch not God’s anointed” which is to scare you from questioning them. Anyway these charlatans are using this interpretation from the Old Testament to make merchandise of you. Yes, Mark I don’t believe Freeman was ‘anointed’. I’ve said before his teaching in orthodoxy he was very exceptional. Even his old students a Grace Theological Seminary will tell you that. Freeman was just a good professor that got caught up in a mistaken belief system (Charismatic) and paid for it with his life. This is what I believe. God took him away for a reason. You fella’s just concentrate on being the best followers of our Lord as you can. Then things will work out better for you. Unfortunately what I am saying will go over like a lead balloon here. At least you know where I’m coming from. You and Molder are nice guys and I like you, but you’re wrong. Peace in our Lord,
I'm not going to get into the arguement of whether or not Dr. Freeman or Moulder or anyone else here is/was annointed. What I will say is this, just because what someone says lines up with scripture doesn't make them annointed. There are many professors in christian universities today that what they say lines up with scripture, but that doesn't make them annointed.
QUOTE: "It’s funny you still listen to his tapes, then you turn off your cassette player go to the Doctor, celebrate Christmas, have mortgages, borrow money for a car, have life and health insurance. I’m shaking my head in confusion of where you’re really at with your ‘faith walk’. " This is one point I keep going back to. No one here disagrees with the theology/orthodoxy that was taught at FA and the worship services were definitely top notch. But the point you make is what I struggle with the most. Hombre, Moulder and many of the other proclaiming overcomers don't follow half of what was taught at FA. It is a lot like what HEF used to do. It was OK for him to listen to the radio but it wasn't for the congregation because he could "discern" what was right and wrong. The common response is to go back to the scriptures. The scriptures are very clear about prayer for healing, pagan holidays, debt and many other topics. My question is why is compromise accepted on these issues but not others? I don't comprehend why/how someone can pick and choose what parts of the Bible they choose to follow, if you are going to use that as your text for basis of your religion, how can you throw out some sections and keep others? IMO that is what the younger generation has the biggest problem with. Their parents want them to continue to believe the "faith message", but they see their parents and former members picking and choosing what parts they want to continue to follow. My grandfather was an strict follower of the "faith message" and was one of the 5-Fold ministers. Several years ago, his eyesight got to where he couldn't see well enough to drive, well he preached to my mother for years about believing for her eyesight(which BTW she still is and hasn't driven in 30 years), what does he do? He goes out and gets glasses, a couple years later he wanted to move into a smaller house, he couldn't get his sold, so what does he do? Takes out a mortgage. This was the same man who preached to my parents for years about not taking out a mortgage to buy a house so they rented for 20+ years. It's hard to take advice from those who have done a 180 on many of the core issues of the "faith message" It's not just the faith healing and legalistic issues with toys and tv and christmas. Believing for God to meet your needs without debt was also a key to the "faith message" as was insurance. I remember as a kid we recited Psalm 91 every morning, we didn't need insurance we had the assurance of Psalm 91. How many of the proclaiming overcomers do not have insurance of any kind? I doubt there are any. On another side note: I think the JDS Teachings may have been somewhat unique. I have not seen that taught in any other church or class that I've ever been in.
Hi Cougar, I certainly understand your confusion over these issues and I agree with you. Let me attempt to put these issues into perspective. What you hate (as do I) is hypocrisy... saying one thing and doing the opposite. I hate it in other people and I hate it in myself when I'm able to recognize it. Recognizing it in others is easy, recognizing it in yourself is a tall order! First, a difference must be made in deciding between biblical issues and issues that we took as biblical when in fact they were not. One would expect that those from Faith Assembly would change over the years concerning those things that were not biblical principles, this is normal and I would not ridicule them for growing up in certain areas. Having said that, I might be a little tougher on those who actually taught such and such and then changed their opinions. Your grandfather seems (just based upon what you have shared) to fall into the latter category. If I were to put myself into your shoes, I think I would pull out the teaching tape he did called "Are you Doing It? #1 & #2" (as I recall there were two messages given at different times) and ask him to explain himself. Why is he no longer "Doing It?" Maybe he does have valid reasons for not doing some of the things he taught, since I don't think that some of those issues were biblically based, but the things he no longer believes-- that were biblically based-- should be worthy of an explanation. Not just to you, but to all of us. You bring up a quote from Odysseus (I think) Quote: QUOTE: "It’s funny you still listen to his tapes, then you turn off your cassette player go to the Doctor, celebrate Christmas, have mortgages, borrow money for a car, have life and health insurance. I’m shaking my head in confusion of where you’re really at with your ‘faith walk’. " The biblical basis for not going to the doctors, is of course based upon Exd 15:26 ... "for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee." Coupled with Jer 17:5 "Thus saith the LORD; Cursed [be] the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD." Those who have made the choice to now trust in man in the stead of the Lord will need to justify it at least to themselves (and if they once were teachers--to others) for the simple fact that it will be hard to pray in faith for anything if they are living in condemnation over this issue. Celebrating Christmas has no biblical basis and the case can certainly be made that it has nothing to do with Jesus except in name only. I would say that the holiday as presently celebrated perverts the message of Christianity. I'll lump mortgages and borrowing money for a car together. Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. This was the passage used along with: Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]. And: Mat 6:31f Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. These teach that the Lord is to be our provider and we should trust in Him for our provision. The area is a little "grayer" than some because in some cases money borrowed on an item of value might be justified in the sense that if the item were sold the money would be there to replace it hence leaving no debt. I haven't needed to examine the issue too closely, so I'll leave that one for someone else. I've already mentioned what I believe about the insurance business both with reference to believers and non-believers alike. I believe the reason insurance was frowned upon by Faith Assembly had more to do with the positive confession aspect than anything else. After all, if you are believing God to keep you healthy, why would you doubt it by getting health insurance? So this issue was more a logical deduction as opposed to having a specific verse that one could point to saying that "health and life" insurance was wrong. You did mention that your grandfather (I think it was you) had a controversy with his neighbor's property line... you might remind him of Deu 19:14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbor's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it. This verse is referring to the children of Israel's inheritance, but you could have some fun asking him to explain himself in the light of scripture! Who knows, you might bring conviction to his heart by your question! William
Just out of curiousity, Moulder, what church are you currently attending? Many of the churches that I have attended over the years are much like one of your other posts. Building campaigns, etc.
I presently attend a charismatic church that was in the area even before I moved to Indiana back in the 70's. It has grown over the years and recently under the leadership of the current pastor is ready to build an even bigger complex. They are beginning this fall a teaching institution offering various courses for a ten month session. As far as I know, no one has signed up for the classes, which, as you can imagine, is causing a bit of controversy... after all, (to use modern-day reasoning) if it is of God, it should take off like a rocket. Personally, (as you could predict <grin>) I would prefer that the church just teach the bible, more or less systematically in the regular services so that all could benefit rather than having a separate institution with requirements that would make a monk question his calling! Quote: Program Requirements All students must be 18 years of age prior to the beginning of the school year. All students must have completed High School and have a certified diploma or GED. All students must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and have references as to their godly conduct and character. Full-time students are required to participate in and complete the following: 1. Attend all sessions of the four core classes that will be taught in each seven-week module. No more than two absences per module will be allowed without special permission. 2. Attend all sessions of one of the elective classes that will be taught in each module. Students may take both electives if they desire. No more than two absences per module will be allowed without special permission. 3. Attend morning prayer from 7:50 – 8:50 a.m. in the soaking prayer room on Tuesday – Friday. Full-time students must also spend at least four additional hours per week in the soaking prayer room. 4. Participate in the Thursday evening gathering for Young Adult Singles at Faith Church unless on an approved ministry assignment. 5. Attend Sunday morning and Wednesday evening worship services at Faith Church unless on an approved ministry assignment. 6. Required attendance of at least two of the Harp & Bowl Intercessory services weekly. These last from 1-2 hours. All full-time students are required to attend the Monday night Harp & Bowl intercessory prayer time. 7. Involvement in at least one Isaiah 58 ministry assignment per week. These will be assigned to each student by CSM staff. These assignments will average approximately 2 hrs. each. 8. Required participation in CSM Small Groups. These are guys' only and girls' only groups designed to deal with assigned life issues. They meet on Saturday at various times for a minimum of three hours. 9. Students will also be required to give four hours per week to servant ministry within Faith Church. These will be assigned by CSM staff in consultation with Faith Church staff. 10. All students are required to attend a weekly school assembly which will be held at various times but will be announced and scheduled in advance. Part-time Marketplace Students 1. Attend all sessions of at least two of the four core classes that will be taught in each seven-week module. No more than two absences per module will be allowed without special permission. 2. Attend all sessions of the afternoon/evening market-place class that will be taught in each module. No more than two absences per module will be allowed without special permission. 3. Spend at least one hour per day in the soaking prayer room on Tuesday – Friday. 4. Attend Sunday morning and Wednesday evening worship services at Faith Church unless on an approved ministry assignment. 5. Students will also be required to give two hours per week to servant ministry within Faith Church. These will be assigned by CSM staff in consultation with Faith Church staff. 6. All Students are required to attend a weekly school assembly which will be held at various times but will be announced and scheduled in advance. Testing, Homework, & Projects Students may be assigned some work and projects to be done outside the class. However, these will be kept to a minimal. Testing will vary by class. More Requirements: Quote: Tuition Students applying to CSM for the 2006-2007 school year will be notified within 30 days of the receipt of application of their acceptance. A follow-up package will be sent to those students accepted into the program. Full-time Students Cost is $5000.00 for the five module school year. This includes housing (four to an apartment), ten provided meals per week, and tuition costs for a full slate of classes for the year. Not included in this cost is insurance, spending money, transportation costs, and mission trip expenses. Cost is $2500.00 for full-time students who qualify to live in their own housing (see exceptions below). Part-time Marketplace Students Cost is $1500.00 for the five module school year. This does not include housing or meals. Cost is $4000.00 for marketplace students who sign up for housing and meals with full-time students. Marketplace students are encouraged to do this. Payment of Tuition for 2006-2007 School Year: 1. Application fee (non-refundable) $25.00 included with application. 2. 1st Payment of $500.00 due within two weeks of notification of acceptance. This is considered as a non-refundable deposit. 3. 2nd payment of $1000.00 due by July 1, 2006 4. 3rd payment of $1000.00 due by August 1, 2006 5. 4th payment of $2500.00 (for Full-time Students) or $1500.00 (for Part-time Marketplace Students with housing and meals) due by November 1, 2006 Tuition Refund Policy The application fee and first payment $500.00 deposit are both non-refundable. CSM makes commitments concerning housing and commits human resources to the application process out of its funds. Full-refund (except the above) up to start date of school. 75% refund of payments within the first week of classes. 50% refund of payments within first two weeks of classes. 0% after first two weeks. Auditing Classes People desiring to audit classes without credit may do so for a fee of $50 per class. Classes usually meet twice weekly for eight weeks. Housing Housing for students is provided by the School. Housing is approximately 12-15 minutes from the school facilities. There will be a total of four students per apartment in two bedroom units. There will also be a male and female dorm CSM staff person in the complex to oversee the apartment lives of the students. Housing costs are included in the full-time student tuition. Full-time students are not allowed to secure their own housing or different housing. The only exceptions to this are full-time students who live with their own family in the area, full-time students over the age of 25, or students who are married. Transportation Students are encouraged to have their own transportation. For those who do not have their own transportation, a van will run back and forth two times daily to the apartment complex. The van ride will be free of charge. Health Insurance All students attending CSM must have health insurance coverage prior to their acceptance to the program and during the duration of the program. Unfortunately, concerning the last point, the health plan of YHWH-Ropheka doesn't qualify. <sigh> And now to the BIG payoff: Quote: Degrees Awarded Full-time Students completing all requirements for the first year CSM program will receive the CSM Degree of Practical Ministry. Part-time Marketplace Students completing all requirements for the first year program will receive the CSM Degree of Marketplace Ministry. Full-time Students completing all requirements for the first year CSM program plus the completion of at least four other electives will receive the CSM Degree of Practical Ministry and the CSM Degree of Marketplace Ministry. Full-time Students completing the second year Intern/Academic Program will receive the CSM Degree of Applied Ministry. If anyone is interested, just give me a shout and I'll get you an application! William
Question: Going back to the discussion of mulder and Cougar - Are trusting in God and going to the doctor mutually exclusive? In other words, if you do one thing, you are automatically not doing the other? I believe that this is the philosophy of many FA folks, but one in which I don't agree. To put it in simple terms: If you wear glasses, are you automatically not trusting God for your sight? If you get some antibiotics to knock out an infection, are you trusting in the "arm of the flesh"? If I carry that logic out to its final conclusion, then I come up with the following scenarios: Since I trust God to supply my food needs, there is no reason to go to the grocery store. The ravens will bring me food to eat, and a well will spring up in my back yard to give me drinking water. In addition, I should never go for a job interview, because that would be relying on my own abilities. When God wants me to have a job, he will send someone to my door to offer me a job. Finally, why should I tell others about Jesus? If God wants to save someone, he doesn't need me to do it. I know those are rather extreme, but to me it's the same logic. Just because I take the initiative on certain things does not mean that I trust God any less. Going back to the whole issue of wearing glasses - The Bible tells us that Moses was 120 and his "eye was not dim." If the Holy Spirit thought it important enough to inspire someone to write it down, it must have been something that was unusual. As such, reason tells me that most older people must have had poor eyesight. The way I see it, it's just part of getting older, and that is the way God made us. When she was alive, my grandmother would read her Bible with a magnifying glass. The only difference between that and glasses is the location of the magnifying instrument. It is my belief that we should trust God in every aspect of our life and in every circumstance. However, God did give us all a brain and put in some common sense. If he didn't want us to think and to use this common sense, we would have been created just like any other animal and forced to rely on our instinct. These are just a few of my thought-provoking opinions. Have a great day! Duncan
I'm sorry if you have missed the point I was trying to make, I am not calling you a hypocrite. These items were keys/mainstays of the FA/HEF faith message/overcoming message 1. Prayer for healing 2. Depending on God for needs 3. No Debt 4. No Insurance(this was considered a lack of faith) If these were the keys of the faith message/overcoming message and no one here practices them anymore than what do any of us have faith for? My second question is that if all of these items are scriptural and theologically sound and if your answer to all my questions is get back in the word, and all of these things are in the word why/how can anyone pick and choose what they want to believe/follow if all of these items are in the bible and one claims to be a Bible believing Christian? That has been my question. I'm not accusing anyone other than my grandfather of hypocrisy. In addition to that if these items are not valid or were mispreached/misrepresented in the "faith message" at FA, how was that church/message any different than going to a good denominational bible believing church and attending the seminary since the theology is the only teachings that this group seems to agree were correct? IMO the Bible is inspired by God, but there is a lot of the book that can be interpreted many different ways.
Hi Duncan, You ask: Quote: Are trusting in God and going to the doctor mutually exclusive? In other words, if you do one thing, you are automatically not doing the other? I believe that this is the philosophy of many FA folks, but one in which I don't agree. To answer the question I'll have to ask another; Could the children of Israel trust in YHWH-Ropheka while at the same time going to the doctors? (We were taught that Israel had no doctors so presumably they would have needed to go to the Egyptians or some Canaanite clinic.) You then use an example that to my mind has little to do with healing: Quote: To put it in simple terms: If you wear glasses, are you automatically not trusting God for your sight? Glasses do not heal nor can they heal. Glasses are like a crutch, if you broke your leg you might need something to lean on while it was healing. If you like to read big thick theology books with small print you might find it more comfortable to have a pair of magnifiers. They won't heal anything, but they may save you from needing to pray for healing if your head starts to ache from trying to read such small print! Quote: If you get some antibiotics to knock out an infection, are you trusting in the "arm of the flesh"? For me, personally? Yes. But some observations are in order: I'm sure some might make the case that there is no distinction between drinking orange juice and shooting it into your veins... but I'm squeamish, I'm sticking to the oral method! You might also make the case that since an invasion of your body has already occurred (with the infection), it might be necessary to make an alliance with a neighboring army to help you repel the enemy... you will obviously need to let the neighboring army use your base of operations (your body) as they seek to help you. Of course, this would depend on whether or not you trusted the neighboring army more than you trusted your own armed forces. We even have biblical examples where Judah and Israel employed this strategy. Quote: If I carry that logic out to its final conclusion, then I come up with the following scenarios: Since I trust God to supply my food needs, there is no reason to go to the grocery store. The ravens will bring me food to eat, and a well will spring up in my back yard to give me drinking water. In addition, I should never go for a job interview, because that would be relying on my own abilities. When God wants me to have a job, he will send someone to my door to offer me a job. Finally, why should I tell others about Jesus? If God wants to save someone, he doesn't need me to do it. I know those are rather extreme, but to me it's the same logic. Just because I take the initiative on certain things does not mean that I trust God any less. I fully agree with you that those scenarios are extreme, my logic would not come up with those scenarios no matter how hard I tried, but hey, we are all unique! Quote: It is my belief that we should trust God in every aspect of our life and in every circumstance. Ah, common ground here! But you continue: Quote: However, God did give us all a brain and put in some common sense. If he didn't want us to think and to use this common sense, we would have been created just like any other animal and forced to rely on our instinct. I must confess that these are true statements as well... but, because God has given me one of those brains and a little common sense, I detect an implicit statement in your explicit words. This statement is as follows: Because you have concluded that doctors, drugs, glasses, (and not mentioned by you but for the sake of completeness-mortgages, debt, Christmas, Easter, denominational systems, etc.) may be alright for the Christian--those who don't share your conclusions by definition are relying on instinct and are not "thinking" or using our God-given brains. I submit that we are. <grin> William
William, thanks for the reply! First of all, let me begin by stating that there was nothing implied in my statement that would question anyone's use of their brain if they didn't agree with my statement. Sorry if that was implied. On the flip side of that coin, I don't want people to imply that I'm just a "baby" Christian because I have glasses, a mortgage, life insurance, etc. I don't think you're doing that, but sometimes those implications come through in these types of discussions. That being said, I try to follow ideas to their logical conclusion in order to challenge/understand my own beliefs and the beliefs of others. As such, here it goes: 1) You drew a distinction between glasses and antibiotics. Since antibiotics are considered something that "heals." A question that immediately comes to mind is this: Would things that prevent disease be lumped in the same category? To be upfront with you, my question is sort of a "trick" question. If you say yes (which I assume you would), then my response is this: What is the difference between toothpaste, suntan lotion and immunization shots? All contain chemicals that are designed to prevent diseases (measles, chicken pox, mumps, gingivitis, cavities, sunburn, etc). What about vitamins? Milk of Magnesia? Castor oil? Mouthwash? Hydrogen peroxide? I could list a number of things, but you get the idea. My reason for listing these things is that I cannot, in my own mind, differentiate between these items. My grandmother would have never received a shot, but she would put hydrogen peroxide on a scrape. They are both chemicals that scientists/doctors put together for specific reasons. As such, it would seem foolish to me to say that one is OK, while the other is not. Timothy had stomach problems and took something to settle it. That was something taken internally that was designed to alter his physical body. My point is that I don't know where to draw the line. I'm sure that others may have these same questions, as well. 2) You posed a question regarding the children of Israel going to doctors. My question is How do we know that there were no doctors in Israel? With thousands upon thousands of people on their way to the promise land, how do we know there were no doctors? It may say so in the Bible, but I do not ever remember reading it. I know their clothes and shoes never wore out, but it doesn't say whether any kids broke an arm or leg while climbing on rocks in the desert. Did they have people to set broken bones or clean scrapes? I don't know. There had to be people who had all sorts of trades, we just never read about it. 3) Speaking of trusting in God for everything, why did Paul makes tents to earn a living? Why didn't he preach the Word and trust in God to meet his needs through love offerings? I'm sure he spoke to disciples who told him that Jesus said not to think about tomorrow but trust in God for your needs. I don't know if this point is relevant to our overall discussion, but it entered my head while I was typing, so I just threw it in at no additional cost. I hope my thoughts here are taken in the spirit in which I intended. I'm not trying to pick a fight or belittle anyone’s belief. I am merely bring up discussion topics that many former FA folks have had to address in some form or fashion. William, if you are ever going to be in my neck of the woods, let me know. I would love to hook up for lunch one day! Thanks! Duncan
Ah, now we are getting to what may be the heart of these issues, and perhaps the very area where we as a body of believers at Faith Assembly missed it, an area that we somewhat agree on now. An area that, if avoided, could have saved us untold misery. That area is where we, as individuals, draw the line in our relationship to Jesus. Quote: First of all, let me begin by stating that there was nothing implied in my statement that would question anyone's use of their brain if they didn't agree with my statement. Sorry if that was implied. On the flip side of that coin, I don't want people to imply that I'm just a "baby" Christian because I have glasses, a mortgage, life insurance, etc. I don't think you're doing that, but sometimes those implications come through in these types of discussions. We all do that though, myself included. We set up straw-man arguments, the more ridiculous the better, to show others where they have missed the boat. We all think that we are right (naturally), but the problem becomes apparent when one side takes a position and makes that a basis for fellowship, or perhaps even makes their position a standard for determining whether or not one is "in the faith" or not. We did that royally at Faith Assembly, and there is seemingly no end to the grief it has caused. Why shouldn't we, as believers, let others determine where they draw the line in what they perceive to be "trusting in the Lord"? We all fall somewhere between 1. Every man doing that which is right in their own eyes, and 2. Every man doing perfectly the Lord's commands. We certainly have objective standards that should be followed, and I'm not indicating that one cannot point out that the Bible says this or that, and it ought/ought-not be followed. To illustrate, let's say we see a brother committing fornication. It behooves us to point this out, rebuke the brother, and if he persists, treat him as an unbeliever. Why? Because he has shown by his actions that he isn't following the "clear" teaching of the scriptures. It becomes a little more difficult to tell your grandmother that she shouldn't use hydrogen peroxide, or a magnifying glass while reading, etc.. She has (or had in your situation) drawn a line that she was willing to go up to, but not over, in keeping the standard she had for pleasing God. My standard is on the end of my nose (when reading difficult tomes!). Others may resort to laser surgery and that is where they draw the line. Can we not all agree that where we draw the line is our own business and should not be legislated in any way unless the clear commands of the Lord are in question? All post-Faith Assembly people should see that this was our Achilles heel! You ask: Quote: 1) You drew a distinction between glasses and antibiotics. Since antibiotics are considered something that "heals." A question that immediately comes to mind is this: Would things that prevent disease be lumped in the same category? To be upfront with you, my question is sort of a "trick" question. If you say yes (which I assume you would), then my response is this: What is the difference between toothpaste, suntan lotion and immunization shots? All contain chemicals that are designed to prevent diseases (measles, chicken pox, mumps, gingivitis, cavities, sunburn, etc). And you continue to make your point: Quote: What about vitamins? Milk of Magnesia? Castor oil? Mouthwash? Hydrogen peroxide? I could list a number of things, but you get the idea. My reason for listing these things is that I cannot, in my own mind, differentiate between these items. My grandmother would have never received a shot, but she would put hydrogen peroxide on a scrape. They are both chemicals that scientists/doctors put together for specific reasons. As such, it would seem foolish to me to say that one is OK, while the other is not. Timothy had stomach problems and took something to settle it. That was something taken internally that was designed to alter his physical body. My point is that I don't know where to draw the line. Personally, (I've used this term over and over cause I believe deeply in what I've said thus far) I draw the line-FOR MYSELF-- when the issue becomes invasive. I'm not going to allow someone to stick a needle in me, cut me open, etc., and while I'm sure that I've ingested chemicals on food that I know nothing about, I would not swallow them if they were packaged in a capsule! Now if others draw the line differently, or don't even have a line, it is God they need to please, not me, not Faith Assembly, not anyone else. In reality, we all want to "draw a line". I've mentioned before that we like the comfort of a list of do's and don'ts, but for crying out loud, if there ever was a people who have been burnt because of "line drawing" it is us; have we learned our lesson? If you find yourself on the operating table getting someone else's heart (or perhaps your line is before that!) then don't hesitate to call me. I will not condemn you. But please don't ask me for one of my kidneys (unless you want both of them!)--my line doesn't go that far! As far as the children of Israel and doctors... I said we were taught that they didn't have doctors, I don't know if they did or did not. Concerning Paul and tent-making... I think that he mentioned that he made tents so as to not be a burden on those to whom he ministered, and if I'm not mistaken, he indicated that he believed that he had the right to live as the other ministers if he chose to. William P.S. I'd love to have lunch with you as long as I won't need to mortgage the house! <grin>
Great Post, William! I won't make you mortgage your house, if you don't condemn me for taking a vitamin with my lunch Just email next time you're coming to the Magic City. Based upon our most recent posts, I think we have solved most of the world's problems and those of FA, as well. I'm reminded of Paul saying that he had no problem eating sacrificed meat, but would refrain if anyone would be offended. I think that if we let him, the Holy Spirit will guide us where we need to go. As in the past, I will continue to trust the Holy Spirit to convict me if I am "crossing the line." That's all I know to do. You are so right when you say that we all want a list of do's and don'ts. It's the easy way out. We don't have to worry about thinking for ourselves and studying ourselves. We can sit back and let someone else do it for us. I think that may be one of the things what drew people to FA. You could rely on someone to tell you what to do, that way you could spend more time with your Greek and Hebrew lexicons. Now that everything is clear as crystal, I guess we have nothing left to discuss. Have a great day! Duncan
Boy, it's great to have you back! I'm going to take your last note as a starting point and start a new thread tomorrow. My wife and I have had a recent discussion about signs and wonders with reference to the church and I'd like to get some input from you all. I'll need to wait until tomorrow though, Duncan has drained me of energy today! William
I got to thinking last night on my way home from work regarding Duncan's "logic". To be honest with you I agree with it. I don't believe it is a lack of faith to use preventative medicine. But you're also right in that everyone has to draw their own line and I think each person's line is dependent on where they are in their walk with Christ. (This is one area in which FA's faith message I believe was mistaught) But I don't think it is a lack of faith to wear glasses and still believe for your eyesight. This is an example that I would compare it to. In regards to the job issue, one can believe God for their needs but I still believe that God expects us to be proactive and fend for ourselves. About four years ago, a company I was working for went under and I was out of work. I was believing for another job that paid as well, but it took me over a year to find one and I never quit working, I delivered newspapers, worked part time doing bookkeeping and fixed computers on the side and went back to school to finish my degree. Was it a lack of faith to take lesser paying jobs, I don't think so. God used the experience to humble me in some areas of my life. I am a firm believer in that everything happens for a reason and while we may not ever know the reason, there is a reason.
Cougar I feel for you and agree with your postings. You are not a brat. If the moderator and others say that about you here then they still need healing, maybe deliverance from righteous pride. Faith Assembly lost a generation through spiritual pride and legalism. Another reason God the Father disbanded it. Remember the verse about hanging a millstone around one's neck? Why. Offending a certain group or belief level. Yes, the youth were lost. Some made it through, some didn't. Basically it boils down to did they have a personal enough experience with Jesus? But I condemn any who will rebuke or call down young people from Faith Assembly as brats. I get a few hurtful emails from teenagers (I don't post everything I get on my site), some very bitter and some very hurt. I feel for all of them, but I agree with one poster, I am not responsible for what went on, but per se we were are indirectly by not standing up for the weaker brethern. cheers tom www.tomax7.com
Hombre Whatever, my apologies if you took it personally. cheers tom
Tomax Hombre has not directly referred to me as a brat, but a while ago there was some discussion on Factnet by some of us "kids" that Hombre didn't agree with and there was a post in which he stated "I see the brats are back" collectively referring to the group of us. Cougar
Hombre, The biggest problem/question that I have or struggle with is how God chooses to answer prayer. We have been over the faith healing issue many times but the Bible is very clear on praying for your healing and you will get healed. I recall very few instances where people have been healed by prayer, I know of a few but a very few in comparison to the times that they have not. On the other hand, God has always met my needs financially and has always protected my family. 2 of my brothers and I have all walked away from wrecks that we shouldn't have. These promises I've seen manifested, but others I haven't. This is the area that I struggle with the most. Your thoughts? Cougar