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description: Fast Uncompromising Discussions.
items: Christian Involvement in Government
items: Re: Christian Involvement in Government

Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: In the light of the discussion concerning whether or not Christians should vote, I offer you all this article I found years ago. It was written in 1887 but it is just as relevant as if it were written yesterday. It is absolutely the best article I've ever read on the subject. Feel free to answer his arguments when you are finished with the article... <grin> ************************************************************ **** Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. A TREATISE ON THE RELATION OF CHRISTIANS TO EARTHLY GOVERNMENTS, OR THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AMONG THE NATIONS ------------------ By E. A. SLATER ------------------ LEXINGTON, KY.: TRANSYLVANIA PRINTING AND PUBLISHING CO. 1878 INTRODUCTION In offering the following reflections to the public, I beg leave to say that I have long been convinced, that the subject of them, merits more attention than it has received. And while the education and prejudices of the reader may be averse to the facts and truths herein evolved I beg him not to disdainfully cast aside this little book, until he has carefully examined its contents in the light of divine truth. For while, possibly, some of its parts may not be wholly devoid of sophistry, I am confident that, as a whole, in its principles, it is both logical and scriptural. The Christian's duty can be known only by reference to the Christian's Guide-book, and if the sentiments of the following pages be in harmony with that, in its principles, it is evident that a great wrong is practiced, and a revolution is demanded. With this conviction, the Christian should begin reformation at once, not only for his own sake. but for the triumph of Chris…
creator: william
date: 2008-10-15T17:05:51-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: Ahh, Hombre... you disappoint me. I didn't see any where in the article about not working in the world (Paul was a tentmaker). One cannot be expected to articulate a complete answer to all of the ethical situations one might face as a Christian in a short article dealing with only one thing--our relationship to the kingdoms of this world. You know full well the fallacy of basing our Christian ethic--our fundamental beliefs,--on the shifting sands of what worldly governments may or may not do. You say: Quote: 1. If one chooses to be a pacifist in every situation of life, and were that to be true of our forefathers as well, Mr Slater would NOT have had the religious and political freedom to write what he has. Mr Slaters' arguments are wonderful within the context of a 'civilized' world, wherein people would actually read, understand, accept and practice that which is right....however, as he so skillfully states, we do not. We live in a barbaric world, in which the strong survive and the weak are trampled. Were it not for those who willfully resisted the governments that they were subject to, from Martin Luther to George Washington, we would not have the freedoms we enjoy today. What kind of argument is that? Do you think that he would be forced to abandon his beliefs because he couldn't write about it??? What does that have to do with whether or not we choose to hold fast to what we believe?? Sounds a bit like you've opted for situational ethics over sound principles. The question isn't whether or not our present situation, our present freedoms, would be non-existent if we followed our convictions, the question is, would we follow our convictions even if it meant a radically different comfort level for our lives? Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2008-10-16T17:12:38-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: Quote: Hombre wrote: 1. Passive resistance though prayer. Actually prayer isn't a 'passive' activity... it is the most powerful activity we could ever hope to engage in; don’t you agree? Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2008-10-16T17:22:35-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: Quote: ...are we NOT to pray: ' Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, ON EARTH as it is in heaven'? Nevermind, I see you do think 'prayer' is an important activity! <grin> Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2008-10-16T17:24:59-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: Quote: Hombre wrote: That's a chink in Slaters' armor. If we are ONLY 'sojourners' in a kingdom that isn't our own, what is the point of doing anything at all in an attempt to change it to fit our conception of what we want? That 'chink' is what the Bible teaches... how can you seriously argue otherwise? Maybe I've misunderstood your tagline: 'Creating upheaval in the unbelieving church through the doctrines of the Word of God, one moment, one thought, one person at a time'. I've always interpreted that as being directed mainly toward the systems that religious men have erected... would it not also apply to the systems that comprise the kingdoms of this world? You certainly don't go into the denominational systems and work within to bring about change... (They, like the US government, allow--even welcome--participation). Why do you consider it your ‘duty’ to involve yourself in the political system and not the religious? Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2008-10-16T17:38:23-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: Quote: Hombre wrote: ..those convictions are based upon whether one sees the kingdoms of this world as belonging wholly to satan or whether God is in charge. Slaters entire thesis is devoted to the that idea '...Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation....' No, you misread his thesis... he acknowledges God's sovereignty over *everything*, the point he makes is that the world's kingdoms are antithetical to the Kingdom of Jesus Christ... we are a part of the second kingdom *NOT* the world's kingdoms-- even though everything falls under His ultimate sovereignty. He is the one (as Slater points out) that will destroy *ALL* of the systems of men--even though He is the one who ultimately reigns over all! If you want to work to build up a 'relatively' good worldly kingdom, fine, but don't get too caught up in the process lest that Stone, cut out of the mountain, destroy you as well. Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2008-10-16T17:50:39-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: ...however, if the Presidency were offered to me tomorrow, I WOULD do it. It's just that I would be impeached the following day. It's because of comments like that one that I always read your posts.
creator: Mark L
date: 2008-10-17T02:49:04-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: Wow, one little analogy and we are supposed to fold??? Quote: Hombre wrote : Let's assume for a moment that we're not talking about a Presidential election, but rather a local one, in which a territory has been recently been given sovereign status. There are 100 farmers living in this territory. They have to decide what laws are going to be recognized and who is going to enforce them. Half of the farmers are liberal, and half are conservative. They decide to elect a person to fulfill those duties which they see as for the common good, however, one of the candidates is tired of farming because it is hard work, and would like to use a law known of as eminent domain to seize the assets of the farmers and sell it off for a profit to a smoke belching factory that makes plastic things. Since the conservative farmers are good Christians, they decide to get into their prayer closets and pray that this will not come to pass. In the mean time, the liberal farmers in cahoots with the guy who is more interested in money than he is in the future of the territorys' people, vote in the candidate who will cut them in on the power/money scheme. After the election, when the conservative farmers find themselves homeless and realize that it is THEIR land that was at stake, they wonder what lesson God wants them to learn from this. Let's add a couple of details that might make it more relevant to the discussion. As it stands, the main lesson of your analogy is that the end justifies the means; not exactly a ringing endorsement of the truth. Nor is it fitting to paint the opposition as those who have only prayer at their disposal... salt and light are pretty useless in a closet, even if it is a prayer closet. Of course your analogy might have more credibility if you could supply us with details of your own personal involvement with the realm of politics beyond "voting" as that would contrast better with the 'inaction' of prayer. For instance, if you really believed in a policy or politic…
creator: william
date: 2008-10-28T17:11:46-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: Seems 'my tax dollars' pays for a lot of things that I'm not consulted on. Hope you enjoyed the vacation...I'd rather see you take a 'vacation' with the money, that it be given to somebody to study the mating habits of some critter in the wild. Guess if I don't like it I should register and vote for someone who will change what happens in Washington, huh?
creator: james
date: 2008-10-29T01:18:05-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: Hombre wrote on Wed, 29 October 2008 08:42 james wrote on Tue, 28 October 2008 18:31 ...OH! Maybe it's because I've NOT traveled around the world.... ..well I haven't either James, although I'd like to. I have been to several places in the caribbean, mexico a number of times, and quite a bit of the US. ..of course, I didn't go anywhere when I had a house full of kids, it was just too expensive. I also started looking at total cost when I traveled anywhere. For example, although I live in Indy, a weekend in Chicago will cost me as much as a weekend in Florida including flights. So what's the choice? I am always amazed at people who spend anywhere from 3-5 grand to go to Disneyworld for a week or 10 days, when the same amount would have bought a 2 week tour of Italy. Attention to detail in planning vacations and trips and being educated about costs is the key to doing those kinds of things...at least it has been for me. ..anyway, my point in saying this is that one gets a totally different perspective of the US once they are on the outside looking in, that is impossible to see when you're on the inside. That is why I encourage people to travel outside of the US. I don't think that Gary, and certainly not I, want to be thought of as effete snobs. I have been able to travel all over the US, and spent a week in Canada (Montreal and Toronto) a couple of years ago. I have been to the Virgin islands, Puerto Rico, the Bahamas, and St. Maarten. lest some think that' I'm rolling in dough, most of that has been on my employer's dime. The Caribbean stops were vacation, on a cruise my wife and I took a couple years ago. Even with my travels in the US, I have gained a different perspective, a much broader perspective than what I call the "provincial" views of the town I grew up in, and where I live now. Most people really don't understand that the world does not revolve around them, and their little town, or their little neighborhood. Seeing from a distance opens up one's eyes to …
creator: NBF56
date: 2008-10-29T14:12:38-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: Wait! Wait! brother, you forgot your change.....
creator: james
date: 2008-10-29T14:30:13-00:00

Re: Christian Involvement in Government
type: item
description: james wrote on Wed, 29 October 2008 09:30 Wait! Wait! brother, you forgot your change..... ah, keep it...pennies don't go as far as they used'ta....
creator: NBF56
date: 2008-10-29T17:21:24-00:00