Faith Assembly, then and now... an update
A while back I posted a note concerning something that Joe Brenneman mentioned in his blog that I didn't understand... (if you are interested in the discussion, it is in Bible Issues--here is the link): http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&th =74&start=0&S=642fffc464eb6e8084e26b565f8c01d2 He has recently (April 23, 2008) posted a note that may be of interest: http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/joblog0804.htm It deals with some of the issues that we have recently discussed. Blessings, William
Re: Faith Assembly, then and now... an update
Quote: Hombre: That's the ticket, mates..... Inspiration, not: d r u d g e r y. Good point... actually your whole note is inspirational. Do we really believe that the NT church sat down and decided to change the dress codes for the newly founded church? They dressed like everyone else dressed. It wasn't until the Council of Pants that men gave up their kilts for more modest clothing. The NT Church didn't need to prove that they were different by wearing special garb, the difference was obvious by the power! As I see it, Paul's insistence on the headcovering for the Corinthians leads me to believe that conformity to the Greek society was the goal, not uniqueness. In other words, the gospel of Christ was so important, he refused to let side issues like women's headcoverings and speaking in church, hinder its propagation, even if it meant that the women would need to limit their freedom for the greater good. It cannot be denied that Greek women as a society wore the headcovering. They also had a greatly inferior position in all of the functions of that society. Apparently, the ones who flaunted those societal norms were the hetaera... they refused to submit to the cultural norms. Naturally Paul did not want Christian women associated with these known prostitutes, hence his regulations. So, if this is the case, one might ask: "What is wrong with a church seeking to limit its women from dressing and acting (and performing/ministering) like the worldly women of today?" Nothing. As long as the society/culture as a whole associates women who dress a certain way and act a certain way, with prostitutes, then the overriding concern should be that the Gospel be not hindered. If dressing a certain way and acting a certain way (ministry) hinders the Gospel, then conformity to the norms should be paramount. Fortunately this isn't the case (with a few notable exceptions) in our American society. In other societies, an Islamic society for instance, the headcovering for a woman seeking to spread Christianity would be of the utmost importance. Also it would be extremely imprudent for a woman in such a situation to attempt to minister to the men of that culture... it would be counterproductive to say the least! It could be argued that in a society like ours, one that associates wearing a cross necklace with Christianity, it might be an advantage to wear a cross necklace when witnessing, but I'm not going to make that argument! <grin> I'm sure not all will agree with me on this. In modern times we need our externals (garb, etc.) to distinguish ourselves as Christians, and until we get to the place where the distinguishing factor for the Christian models that of the NT (healing the sick, casting out demons, etc.) we will need to continue to use the beggarly elements of religious garb and talk, to make the point that we are different. <sigh> Blessings, William
I thought Joe did a good job of presenting Faith Assembly's present position. I think he is right about women wearing the headcovering.
Boy, are your discussions interesting! By the way, hi, Michael--just saw your post re my intro. I'm looking the site over and trying to decide how to come at things...I do have a story and a half--my life wasn't quiet in FA, and it hasn't been quiet outside. I can honestly say if I didn't learn what I did at FA, I'd not have made it till now. I'm not ready to tell that yet, but I've got to start somewhere, so I'm going to take a deep breath and wade in, ok, dive in... . (Maybe tomorrow I'll post what I told someone else recently that I learned at FA...). But back to the subject at hand, Hombre said: ...then there's the matter of attending a 'church' where the people believe that the way that they have established is 110% right, and regardless of whether the official position is 'freedom', tell me how long a woman is going to last in there without a doily, or wearing feminine 'trousers'....and how long exactly until one realizes that they really aren't a part of 'it' until they become like one of 'them'? This point really concerns me. It seems to me too many specifics regarding dress (and other areas in FA and elsewhere) can open doors toward (though I really believe that's absolutely not intended) legalism and hot on its heels, a battle with spiritual pride. I think that tendency is not Faith Assembly per se, but a temptation to everyone, and I wonder how the balance of their personal conviction re dress God wants for everyone and freedom for others to grow in that conviction (or not) can be maintained with respect from and for those on both sides of the issue. The deeper issue that flows from this one, however, is that whichever side of that (or another) fence I'm on, I think it's a very real temptation for me as a human being to discount "the other side's" views on everything, and thus not allow "iron to sharpen iron" by letting other living stones rub off on me. I have a ready-made excuse--they don't have light here (I think) so I don't have to listen there...besides, I can't listen and deeply consider what is being said because I might get deceived... . I pray that God call me on these things any time I'm thinking that way. That's peer pressure in a nutshell. It is, brother, and I believe it tries to estrange us from our brothers and sisters. Something to consider here: Who is building the church? - My Bible says Jesus builds His church (Mt 16:16-18). Also, who convicts the world (and the church) of sin, righteousness, and judgment - and all other issues? My Bible says that is the work of the Holy Spirit (Jn 16:8,12-14). One day the Lord convicted me that I was taking His place. He asked me what my relationship to other Christians was, and I answered, "sister." He said, "That's right. You're not Me, and you're not the Holy Spirit, and unless I make it absolutely clear that you need to speak up on any particular issue, if you step in, you are usurping My role. You are not Father, and if you try to speak without being called on and without My wisdom (which will help people not polarize according to the fruits ascribed to it in James 3:17-18), you are hindering rather than helping My work." IMO.....as long as people continue to legislate or 'infer' by way of declaration ( whatever Rolling Eyes ) what 'the right way is' with reference to anything other than moral issues, there will be 'peer pressure' and little ingrown societies that develop. Yes. Does this not also tend to take away freedom to think and hear the Lord for oneself? If I know what answer (and proof text) I'd best come up with to be considered credible and spiritual, I'm not likely to rock the boat. (On the other hand, if I tended to like rocking boats, I might use the occasion for a good fight!) I don't see how either of those attitudes is more godly than the other--both are rooted in flesh and preferences, and have nothing to do with God or the fruit of the Spirit. My mentality used to be, "Don't sweat the small stuff." But is it "small stuff" if I really don't think one of these things is something God is asking of me (though the principle always remains intact)? Am I not being dishonest to "just go along, just submit?" Further, could it ever be sin against the Lord and His body to follow something that is not a conviction of mine? I would say it depends on what the Lord is doing. I could be being picky, or depending on what the Lord was aiming for, I could be robbing the whole body of a chance to seek God, deny flesh and in the process stretch, grow and receive a new revelation of Him. IMO, not all conflict is bad if our aim is to let it draw us closer to the Lord's mind and heart... . ..before I end this... , I would like to add also that the idea of separation from the world can become a powerful medium of abuse in estranging people from reality. For example, I'm not stupid, I can read a newspaper or watch TV and recognize editorial content, and even learn from it. I don't need a leader to do that for me...or to tell me that it's wrong.... While our family was at Faith Assembly for six years (1979-1985), we had a "media blackout." Those were some of the best years of my life in some ways. During that time I learned to love silence (in this world it is an acquired taste!), learned to listen for God, learned to hear His voice. It was certainly time well spent. Our boys learned that there were plenty of things to do without "electronics," and they were saved from the worldly lusts "ministered" through ads and fashions slanted to appeal to them. Their lives were uncluttered. Their lives bear some of the fruits of that time in the values they carry today as adults. However, since we left Faith Assembly over the years we added some media gradually, very carefully back in; the image I had when we left was that we were like deep sea divers--if we came up from the depths too quickly, we would get the bends, ie "culture-shock;" if "the world" was allowed to rush in too fast, we could lose all the advantages that experience had gained for us. In retrospect, I do think there have been a few trade offs that I'm not always happy with--a little less separation from the world than I'd like, and there have been temptations to overuse the media. I am not always convinced I like the results of that, but I also know for my life I need to hear and know and pray about some events and trends. But it took me a very long time to catch up on things. For quite some time I felt as though I'd been caught in a time-warp. Concerning our guys, I honestly believe I would have hindered God's purpose for them had I not been obedient and taken the time to carefully under controlled conditions spent hours of time teaching them about the world and discussing what we saw, diligently comparing it with the Bible. If I'd just exposed them to the media with no guidance, I think I would have been throwing them to the wolves with a "sink or swim" attitude, and if I'd not exposed them carefully, they wouldn't have been prepared to deal with what they encountered as we came out of our "cocoon." Well, I think I've said plenty...
I've alway thought that the mini-skirt was a Greek invention, worn also by the Romans... course it was the men that wore them, not the women. Blessings, William
Hi all. I'm off today so I'm meandering more (my guys are tempted to think I'm "off" all the time but that's another subject). --BTW is there any way to start a post here and save it as a draft??? It might have saved me some late nights...but then again I want to write while the inspiration is flowing... . I would like to bring up Faith Assembly again. Let me say right now, I am absolutely 100% not wanting to "bash Faith Assembly!" How could I want to when I received so much there? I also fully believe that today they are trying awfully hard to hold to what they perceive God wants them to hold to, while at the same time trying to bring a balance to some past issues - not doctrinal issues, but application issues. I will be the first to say that's like trying to walk a tightrope - one false move in any direction and it's a long tumble! Personally, as I pray over the FA body, I really believe God has commissioned them to plant themselves and not budge on these truths that were of Him, including many aspects of the extreme separation from the world. In my own life, though I believe God led me out of that extreme separation, I honestly know what I got from it--and to be totally honest, I wouldn't put it past God to call at least some of us to total separation from media again if the battle gets hot and heavy enough. I also believe if Faith Assembly can't hold their ground, that something very valuable will be lost to the body of Christ. Someone might ask, "What does it matter if they stand or fall now; we got what we needed, and besides, they aren't a big enough group at this point to make much of a difference?" I would reply, "Since when does God need big numbers...Joshua against Jericho (they didn't even fight!), David (and God!) against Goliath, Gideon's Army...we all know God delights in doing the unlikely thing to confound His enemies." I believe one reason He would have them stand as a body is to stand for the truths of the Word entrusted to them. You might say, "Yes, but there are the tapes. Let people learn from them. Also, we know those truths and walk in them. Aren't we standing?" Yes, but as far as I can tell, we are standing as individuals. Small in number though they be, they are standing as a body. They exist to "demonstrate the tapes/truths in action. When I personally stand, I am using and encouraging those truths, but that is part of my message. They seem near as I can tell to be custodians of the message, and I wonder if their job isn't to bring those truths to other parts of the body of Christ that are part of the remnant and don't know it yet. The difference between my using what I learned at FA and their proclaiming and using it is the difference between my using my tools (hammer, saw, etc) and their demonstrating, explaining and sharing the tools and their use as their main focus and equipping the rest God calls to learn what we did. Brothers and sisters, if what I am saying has even a grain of truth, is it any wonder that all hell (I mean that literally) has tried to obliterate them by using any and all weapons at its disposal? The enemy knows what it will mean to his camp to have people in bodies who are trained, healed, holy. and as a result powerful move against him. Let me speak of a couple of the weapons I think he's used with great success to this point--first let's talk about us. I think the enemy has worked awfully hard to keep us from appreciating them (as custodian of the message) and the role that God used them to play in our lives to the point where we would be willing to go to war for them. Yes, we appreciate, but how much? One might say to me, "But it doesn't seem as if they appreciate us !" That may be, but whoever sees it first is the one Scripture would say should respond. - I have things to say regarding them, but not until I deal with my own logs. Why would we not battle for them? NOTE: I am not saying "correct them, show them where they are wrong. No, because they must know our love and respect and know the sincerity of our prayers before they can hear anything else. Then if they have 'specks' in their eyes, God might convict them... . One possible reason we haven't (including me) been ready to battle for them is that we haven't totally done our homework. Some of us don't see we have any homework to do, and some don't know how to do it so that we are set free to walk in what we've been taught (including the fruit of love towards them, etc) and that disqualifies us so we can't go back and help/war for them. - Children are supposed to honor our parents--isn't this one way to honor our "parent body?" I think some of us (I do not know who--and it is not my place to try to decide who is in this category) "out here" have jettisoned some things in our past. That in itself isn't wrong if we are still grateful and if we do it out of conviction that this is how God is dealing with us in this time. However, some of us have jettisoned things less out of conviction and more out of a sense of failure or hurt, perhaps because we think there is no way to live the Word of God without condemnation if we feel like we can't cut it, or if we've had bad experiences, we'll do anything (including not wrestle with the Word) so that we don't become like "those people" who have hurt us. Then again, if we have anger, we could jettison some things out of rebellion...I think there are as many possible reactions to our past as there are people. I further think in our re-thinking, re-praying over things (and how can we not do that if we've come from FA?) very few of us could have had perfectly balanced reactions all the time, even if we've tried to "hold fast." I am not trying to put condemnation anywhere--I am just looking at possible attitudes/fears that could prevent us from coming to the aid of Faith Assembly. Also, if I don't see my, logs, when I see their 'specks' I might say, "If they're so smart they don't need [or deserve] my help." If I am going to look at FA, I need to have a clear heart myself or I won't be able to see past what God says is the log in my own eye to with a clear conscience, a right heart and motives and a gentle spirit pray and war for and (if God ever gave opportunity minister to) them rightly. Now very briefly to Faith Assembly. Do they think they need others to war for and with them? Doesn't sound like it from their blog. But why should that stop us? I didn't think I needed any help when people were praying like crazy for my salvation! Do they have anything they are holding to that isn't God, or at least isn't God for everybody, even if it is God for those in their body? Yes, I think so, but they won't be convinced by reasoning or debate. They, like me, will only be convinced by God's work in their heart. Do they have a battle with blindness or pride?--No more than I do! So, I believe God asks you, brothers and sisters who are just about healed enough--do you find it in your hearts to go to war for them instead of just seeing what you pick up on their blog? - And brothers and sisters who haven't yet come to healing enough, God isn't asking this of you. What He's asking you is if you knew how to do the things needed step by step to get your healing (and it is different for each person because God is a very individual God) - would you be willing to do it? See, each of us is being asked something--with no condemnation--just a chance to grow to the next step. What are we going to say? One of our first tests-what Joe said in the blog Thursday, May 1, 2008. Is it at all troubling? Is it something to shake my head over or to start praying that God reveal any imbalances to them and any truths to me? Lord, I pray You take any criticism and judgment out of my heart. Where it has not even occurred to me to pray, please forgive my sin against You and against them. Teach me your heart and what You want my attitude to be toward my "parent church." I would like you to work in me such that I desire as much to see them established as I do myself. Please, Lord, help us all come into what You desire, and thank You so very much for Your longsuffering. I know to whom much is given much is required, and that does not just apply in the area of gifts, but fruit. To be those You've called us to be, we need to have Your vision and heart. In regards to Faith Assembly, please give us both Your vision and heart, and Your grace to obey. I ask this in the wonderful name of my Lord Jesus Christ. Thank You!
captured: Quote: I would like to bring up Faith Assembly again. Let me say right now, I am absolutely 100% not wanting to "bash Faith Assembly!" How could I want to when I received so much there? I also fully believe that today they are trying awfully hard to hold to what they perceive God wants them to hold to, while at the same time trying to bring a balance to some past issues - not doctrinal issues, but application issues. I will be the first to say that's like trying to walk a tightrope - one false move in any direction and it's a long tumble! I guess I see it a little different than you, but I think I see your point. I'm all for praying for the current FA (something I confess I haven't done much of) but I'm not willing to just sweep things under the rug either and ignore some of the areas where I believe we were dead wrong. We've explored a lot of those areas over the last few years and while I'm not sure we are all at the same place (and maybe you are right in your assessment that it is because we all are standing pretty much as individuals and not as a unified body) I do think we've moved on in our walk with God. Some may see it more as a regression, but that's okay too! Quote: They seem near as I can tell to be custodians of the message, and I wonder if their job isn't to bring those truths to other parts of the body of Christ that are part of the remnant and don't know it yet. The difference between my using what I learned at FA and their proclaiming and using it is the difference between my using my tools (hammer, saw, etc) and their demonstrating, explaining and sharing the tools and their use as their main focus and equipping the rest God calls to learn what we did. Custodians of "the message” or custodians of the message of the Bible? We are all called to walk in the truths presented in the Bible and in that sense we are all called to be custodians. I confess I know little about what goes on at FA now beyond what I've read in Joe's blog, so that should temper anything that I say, but it doesn't seem to me that they would have much of an interest in what former FA'ers have to say about much of anything. When a group of people get to the point where they view themselves as the "keepers of the flame", problems arise. It happened then and it *seems* as if that is the attitude today. Quote: Let me speak of a couple of the weapons I think he's used with great success to this point--first let's talk about us. I think the enemy has worked awfully hard to keep us from appreciating them (as custodian of the message) and the role that God used them to play in our lives to the point where we would be willing to go to war for them. Yes, we appreciate, but how much? One might say to me, "But it doesn't seem as if they appreciate us !" That may be, but whoever sees it first is the one Scripture would say should respond. - I have things to say regarding them, but not until I deal with my own logs. Guilty as charged! But since I am, and since you say that they are the "custodians", shouldn't they see it first? Isn't it ironic that it should be those who have, from the current FA’s standpoint, left "the message", be the ones who take up the burden of standing in the gap? I do appreciate what you are saying, so please don't take that the wrong way. Your point is a good one, but it is rather ironic, don't you think? Quote: Why would we not battle for them? NOTE: I am not saying "correct them, show them where they are wrong. No, because they must know our love and respect and know the sincerity of our prayers before they can hear anything else. Then if they have 'specks' in their eyes, God might convict them... . One possible reason we haven't (including me) been ready to battle for them is that we haven't totally done our homework. Some of us don't see we have any homework to do, and some don't know how to do it so that we are set free to walk in what we've been taught (including the fruit of love towards them, etc) and that disqualifies us so we can't go back and help/war for them. - Children are supposed to honor our parents--isn't this one way to honor our "parent body?" Ouch! Now you are asking us to not do something that we were taught to do! We are nothing if not great correctors! We all have our master's degree in that field! Okay, so I need to do a little homework...<grin> Quote: So, I believe God asks you, brothers and sisters who are just about healed enough--do you find it in your hearts to go to war for them instead of just seeing what you pick up on their blog? Justification coming... I read the blog because I do find some affinity with the group... but no more than Malcolm's church, and no more than other groups (some I don't even know about) with whom we've shared a common experience. Quote: One of our first tests-what Joe said in the blog Thursday, May 1, 2008. Is it at all troubling? Actually, and this will probably surprise you, I'm probably more in agreement with him on that issue, but I've really not heard too much about what is going on down there, so I hesitate to say anything without first doing a little more research. The "tiny remnant" statement had me rolling my eyes a bit though! I hope you don't take this whole response as criticism and let it hinder you from continuing to post great soul-searching notes. You have a gift that I really appreciate... it isn't often that I read things that stir me deeply... your notes have! Blessings, William
Hi, all! Thank you for replying, William--it gives me an opportunity both to "come to balance" and/or to say what I mean (hopefully) a little more clearly. I didn't mean to touch off any red flags, but I understand how this post easily could have. Speaking of, I sincerely apologize to all ! I had some red flags about the May 1, 2008 FA blog which I see upon second prayerful reading provoked by your comments, William, didn't hold water! I had taken some things differently than the way I see they were meant. I too agree in the main with it. I also deeply apologize to Joe Brenneman and Faith Assembly if anyone from there by any chance reads this for not reading it at least twice before commenting. By God's grace I will not do that again! Thanks for the heads-up there, brother! Now-I operate by trying to "describe what I see." When I do, it almost always needs to be refined, and I can't do that in a void, so I have to prayerfully "put it out there" so brothers and sisters can challenge me, and that is often where the refinement comes, both in words (saying more clearly) and in balance. One of my friends says she gets quiet to "process" things. I do also to an extent. But she says after my quiet, the second thing I do to process is verbalize. That is what I'm doing here...but on another point, me lopsided and needing balance? Never! Hah! - if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you...its in Brooklyn!! Anyway, onward. Note: I will not be able to comment on all you said in reply in one post, so I'll start here, and more to follow, . A request, brothers and sisters--please think of my last post as a starting place and please hear me out...online communication can be difficult in some ways and take time--in a face-to-face I could correct what I said right away--can't here. Thank you, and may God bless you for your patience with me. Also, I am going to try to reply to all of William's points before I go to any others (if there are any others) since his post was first. You said: but I'm not willing to just sweep things under the rug either and ignore some of the areas where I believe we were dead wrong. We've explored a lot of those areas over the last few years and while I'm not sure we are all at the same place (and maybe you are right in your assessment that it is because we all are standing pretty much as individuals and not as a unified body. Nor am I willing to sweep things under the rug, brother. I just know that without diligent prayer neither side has a prayer, literally, of learning anything from the other, (both sides keep running into their own walls of hurts, strongholds, etc and find it hard to hear (that's what affected my "hearing right" the FA blog entry I referred to above) and if we are just talking to each other without serious (not lip-service) prayer (or not talking at all), we are leaving out the One who can change us, the One who for some reason wants our cooperation in prayer (this is a principle-not targeted particularly at FA). To finish the last part of your quote: I do think we've moved on in our walk with God. I'm sure, to some extent we outside FA and those inside FA have moved on. None of us are "frozen in time," since none of us are dead! But I question as I did in the last post, what would God say is my responsibility to our "parent body," the one that He used to birth in my heart the Biblical message that has given me such life? Don't I need to first be thankful, then forgive and pray for their welfare? Don't I need to pray if they are off balance in any area that the Lord would bless them with His wisdom and guide them? To me, if I don't or can't do those things, I haven't completed the process described in the following statement: "Maturity requires the integration, not the amputation of what we have received through our conception and birth, our infancy and schooling." --Eugene Peterson Things have to come full circle, at least for me, or I haven't fully moved on... . Besides, regardless of how our "parents" regard us (yes, I admit to great irony, brother), are we to regard them that way? - I liken it to being divorced - it doesn't matter who started it, it doesn't matter even if there's repentance on the other side (it takes two). I'm still called to forgive and pray as God leads or I'm in disobedience (and brother, I'm putting my money where my mouth is here and seeing interesting results...). You said: Custodians of "the message” or custodians of the message of the Bible? We are all called to walk in the truths presented in the Bible and in that sense we are all called to be custodians. Let me try again. I mean I firmly believe there is the possibility God wants them (the current body attached to the Faith Assembly website) to be custodians as in proclaimers of the full throttle "trust God for everything" message running throughout the Bible. Anyway, by way of illustration of the distinctions between the function of a body and the function and limitations of individual Christians I'm trying to make here, let me ask you a question, William and everyone else who is healed and walking in the full message of the Bible with God's help and led to go to a local church: Do you admit your body doesn't have what we as a body had? I thought I've picked that up from your posts, William and a few others. If that's so, do you proclaim (as opposed to demonstrate and mainly-there are exceptions-proclaim when your walk inspires questions) the whole ball of wax constantly in relation to the Christians you know within that body? (Hombre and those like you, I address you about five paragraphs below! ) Maybe you do loudly proclaim on top of demonstration whether asked or not, and if so, that's great if God's leading you (but from what I've observed people like Hombre don't last long at bodies that aren't prepared by God for them!). On the contrary, however, from what I've seen of other "out here" healed FA brethren, that's not the usual pattern. Speaking of myself as an individual, I am to be a custodian also, but more in the sense of using the tool in a specific arena, rather than proclaiming it in all its ramifications as a body can do. They, like me, have not been too vocal; you can't be if you are sent to the "system" for very long. And let me say that this is not compromise! It is God using a different "tool;" not everything needs a slash and burn approach (but some things do!). - I've had to be content with the way God has worked through me till now: people come to me because they are hurt, and God gives me specific things through words of knowledge etc to dislodge their "logjams." Now regarding application I tell them to go to God with what I said in order to ask Him and listen to what He says about what I said, and then to do exactly what He says, not to just follow my advice. My "counseling" is always, always to strengthen people's relationship with the Lord, not make people dependent on me. Their point of need has been a doorway into exploring rudimentary faith. I also point them towards total surrender, but I don't spend hours sharing it for reasons I explain below, and because that's not the emphasis God's given me at this point. My God-given emphasis is at this point to help them get free of the emotional things that would keep them from following God in an effectual, practical, abandoned to God faith walk. -I haven't been able to go any farther than that, partly because there hasn't been enough of a climate of consistent teaching and demonstration by the pastor to provide a frame of reference for people to relate to. Up till very recently I couldn't do more because of what God had not dealt with in the body; my making it an issue (instead of just praying fervently) would have disturbed the work God was doing to get us ready for what He is doing now. While God has built that frame of reference in us as individuals through FA and scattered us, up till now it hasn't been present for the most part in the bodies I've encountered, but let me say here, I believe He is tilling the ground in places out here, judging from my small group meeting last night so that message can be received by more bodies (not just individuals) even if He has to level them first by the proclamation of the message. Important aside: No, Hombre, I'm not asking you! Seriously, I know other "slash and burn" Christians - my prayer partner is anointed for that. Because I have "a kinder gentler anointing," so to speak I almost want to put 'anointed' here in quotes, but honestly, I have learned as led by the Spirit it is a tremendous gift and people such as yourself are used as "sharp threshing instruments" and get results the rest of us aren't anointed to get in places angels fear to tread. Faith Assembly, on the other hand, because it is a body charged with that message proclaims as well as demonstrates the whole ball of wax constantly. She as a body has truths of application which if others understood could save many a Christian many a heartache (and possible deception as stated in the May 1, 2008 blog) from wandering from one place to another to receive their healing, etc. What FA knows in this area (one of many) and could effectually proclaim more and more as the need for it is growing, could definitely if "caught" by other Christians be a stabilizing factor in the body of Christ, if you will, part of that "sharp threshing instrument" that will help prepare and keep the remnant on track in the days to come. In conclusion of this part, that is why I believe and really want (and even more believe that God really wants) to see a humble, seasoned by years of adversity and trial body proclaiming and demonstrating these truths...and I hope there are others with as much experience and testing and sifting and sorting as FA has to do so, but I honestly don't know them... . Okay, I am now going to have to stop. (I reread this post Sunday and aside from moving a sentence or two, and rounding out the last paragraph above, decided it was okay for now.) I will read your replies, pick up later and keep posting to William's (I'm sure it will include consideration of others' replies too.) I'm not sure why, but I feel this is a hugely important issue, both for us if we are healed enough, and for FA. Have a good day everyone!
From what I understand, there is still FA, but there are 2 other churches in Indiana that claim to be holding on to the truth exactly the way Dr Freeman preached it, yet these 3 churches cant agree on several points. Yet they claim to carry the mantle. Not only cant they agree, but they cant seem to get along either. They all claim they are right. Plus there are those in Indy that claim they are holding fast to Dr Freeman, but disagree amoung them selves and with those north of them. Has any of these churches learned anything thing yet? I hope so, but I dont know.
Capturedbygrace: Greetings in Jesus Name! Please forgive me for jumping in on this topic Ref :The Now Faith Assembly ! Over the last two years, I have at times tried to communicate with Bro Joe, Pastor at FA. He would not respond to E-mails. Although He refered to us as the Old Guards in his blog. (Us, being those who where at FA & the Glory Barn before he showed up.) His Blog has been very negative toward me & others from the Old Guard.......It is not that we haven't tried to show forth our love an compassion for the Body in Warsaw......Yep, we care ! But what happens when the Parent Church rejects the children ? (as if to say FA in Warsaw was our Parent Church) ?! What about Tom Hamilton ? I think he has been keeping the message longer than Bro Joe......Wonder what Tom would think about Joes Blog ? Have ya heard any of Toms messages lately ? So what do we do ? Drive to Warsaw 3 times a week or Shelbyville Ky or even Grand Rapids or is there not a God in Ohio, MIch, in Bhama or Fla or Ky or in the town that you live in ?
Hi, again everyone! Let me first say, thank you all for not killing me. You've not used slash and burn here, and I'm very grateful (seriously)!! But I'm also very glad you're replying. This post is not a "reply" post per say. Here I'm trying to amplify what I'm sensing in my heart so I don't intellectually try to argue my case--I guess I'm trying to let you see what I sense from my spiritual eyes to see if it resonates in your hearts... I don't know how exactly to explain what I'm sensing about these issues I'm bringing up, but I still think they are vital. Until those of us who are healed enough (and God won't leave the rest of us unhealed if we want healing...hang on for it...) fully explore and wrestle with God about the "forgiveness enough to be able to pray in depth" for FA angle, and until we actually enter into (those who are called to it) a burden of intercession for them, I don't believe we will see what God wants to do. I will be the first to say that applies to me as well, because I didn't have this burden any time over the years--until six or so weeks ago. I even thought I was healed - and I certainly was to a great degree - but then our church started getting the die to self, ask God about everything, learn your giftings message coming out weekly in embryonic form without religion (as far as I can discern) and, at this point without discernible pride. Brothers and sisters, I got scared. What has been scaring me has been the potential to have the chaff grow again...and I do not want to go there. I went before God seeking Him and He said to "google Faith Assembly." I did and as I kept reading and praying, the Lord through various means has been having me (again!) intensely revisit that season, and the good He's brought out of it. As always, in such a looking back, what isn't healed also comes to the surface (sort of like "dirty foam"). I believe God is skimming that layer of foam off me, and as He does, I keep sensing there is something He wants accomplished with FA that cannot happen without intercession. It is so crucial, that I believe if we who were "birthed there" won't do it, He will raise up others in our place--and if that happens they will be blessed in ways we would have been if we'd yielded to God's prompting, which goes beyond all man's speaking and reasoning. I think that Faith Assembly (the body connected with Joe Brenneman)--and as another brother said, there are others who are claiming to have the message also (who disagree among themselves), but I don't know about them--I'm speaking of the body I said, is meant by God to be a key player in days to come. No, I don't sense we should all go rushing back!! Quite the contrary, I believe we shouldn't unless God were to expressly draw us and direct us (and even if He did so, He would not draw us to correct her--that's His job)!! In this hour if we will listen, He will position us exactly where He wants us, and the only safe, fruitful place to be (as we know) is the one He gives us. Therein lies the rub (referring to God desiring FA to be a key player in days to come). I believe there are things needing to be accomplished in her to fit her for whatever, just exactly like there are things needing to be done in me to fit me for whatever--and "whatever" does not mean "glory in the flesh visions of greatness!" I say the following in fear and trembling before God: I believe Faith Assembly won't be able to fulfill what God is trying to fit her for (and I really don't even think I have more than an inkling of what that might be) without some "heavy-duty heartfelt longing to see her right in the center of God's will" intercession. Why? Because what you guys (me too) have been wrestling over regarding the chaff around the message is precisely what the enemy doesn't want her, the Faith Assembly body, not just individuals (though it starts there) to see in fullness and deal with. I have sound reason to believe she's already made great strides with what she has seen, and the enemy really doesn't want her to see more. It cripples her, so why wouldn't the enemy work hard to keep her from seeing it? I also say I believe with all my heart that Joe Brenneman is a true shepherd with courage and integrity, and that to the extent that the Holy Spirit has removed the blinders, to the extent that God has spoken to him, he has heard and responded. But he can't respond to what he can't see as revealed by God, not man. I believe the same thing is true with us. God keeps gently and firmly showing me things about my past that, if I don't deal with them now with Him will be a snare in my future. People have really been praying for me (and please, if God lays it on your heart, will you pray for me?). They have prayed God reveal my blind spots, heal me where I need healing, and purify me. Blind spots are the enemy's business--he's an expert at them. If I know I have a stronghold of pride or fear for instance, I will seek God for the gift of repentance and deliverance and war against it. The enemy wants to keep me blind because he knows if I see it that I have the tools to deal with it and will do so. However, if I don't know it, if the enemy can keep it hidden from me, I will be operating in it and to the extent I do, I cannot fulfill God's will for my life. I believe the enemy is trying to hold on to any ground he can at Faith Assembly. He knows God has deposited many truths there, and he is trying to cripple her so they cannot fully come out in purity, love and power. You've seen some of the "foam." But if she doesn't get a heart understanding of it, she won't be able to repent and experience the deep cleansing she must have to operate the way God wants her to. I am sensing that with both individuals and bodies He's called (what's good for the goose is good for the gander...). Friends, God in the days to come wants to lead through holy, cleansed, mature, broken vessels He's restored. But the enemy's design is to keep us vessels (both individuals and bodies) from knowing what needs to be cleansed through his weapons of distraction, deception, distortion, accusation, hurt, anger and the rest of his arsenal of tricks. Let's examine one of his tricks - telling us that we've moved on, and FA no longer matters to our lives. It is true that we don't need Faith Assembly from an idolatry standpoint - we don't want to long for "the good old days." They were a stage in our growth, nothing more. We can't camp there. Besides, it is only young children who can get away with impunity with idolizing parents and thinking they can do no wrong. By the way, it's easy to see as you've picked up, he's also trying to tell Faith Assembly that she doesn't need us. I beg to differ - yes she does - she needs "her children" to love, respect and pray for her even when she shows herself (like the rest of us) to be a vessel of clay. No, in the natural I don't think she needs us all to come back and "swell her ranks" again (unless God absolutely says, I think that would be a "fleshly vision of glory"). I keep getting the impression that it's a situation where God wants to bring the body of Faith Assembly to wholeness along with the people who received what God had to offer but left. I also think that it will only happen through prayer. In fact, I honestly wonder if we individuals can come to total wholeness without praying for her welfare... . We, none of us - the body of Faith Assembly, nor those birthed from her - can by our own mind, our own strength broker a godly peace here. It is only the Holy Spirit who is the arbiter of true, lasting peace that passes all understanding. "Captured by Grace, do you have peace with Faith Assembly," you ask? Only a tenuous one at best. But it is so important that God bring me to peace with her and her to peace with me. "Chaff" is getting in the way of that on both sides...but I know if I keep praying for her (and myself) God will make a way. Faith Assembly was one of those "before/after" events in our lives. It's like the auto accident - there's a clear demarcation, also our son who died - another clear turning point. Faith Assembly as well was a turning point-leaving Faith Assembly I was forever changed from before I came... God wants it put to total rest, friends. He wants to bring such healing to all that we no longer need message boards etc (though I'm so thankful God raised yours up for this stage of my healing...). He wants to do such a miracle of healing that I no longer would have pages and pages of people's brokenness to break my heart (and I only feel a portion of what my Lord feels). I believe what our wonderful God wants to do is finish this work regarding Faith Assembly (what work is left you ask?-if you get praying I believe with all my heart God will tell you-and He not only can tell you, but He has the power to "fix it"...) in all our hearts, and get us ready for what He's getting ready to do. He is ready to breathe His life back in to us in ways we had no idea we still needed it...and then He will place and commission us for this next hour... . I believe this next season we will be so busy, productive and fruitful using all the good we have had deposited by God that the pain of the past will be translated to "the joy of the present" and seem worthwhile. I believe what He is going to do next is going to be "beyond all we can ask or think"--but not in fleshly ways. I for one want to be a broken-healed person, along with my brothers and sisters and Faith Assembly; I want us whole enough that we can have "front row seats" so to speak--so we can be in the middle (center) of what God is doing. Don't you? Ready or not...it's coming... . May the Lord richly bless each of our hearts and fill us with hope, expectation and holy joy that will carry us through the rest of our "prep" time... . Later, friends
I'm listening... partly because what you are saying goes against everything my flesh wants to say and do right now and partly because of Ezekiel 37 and Judges 6. I'll leave it at that for now. Blessings, William
Hombre wrote on Sat, 03 May 2008 10:38 moulder wrote on Fri, 02 May 2008 19:15 I guess I see it a little different than you, but I think I see your point. I'm all for praying for the current FA (something I confess I haven't done much of) but I'm not willing to just sweep things under the rug either and ignore some of the areas where I believe we were dead wrong. LIke where for example? It wasn't until I quoted the above that I saw your smiley face and realized that you were just being funny! I'll go ahead and answer, but you could go back and read over your own previously posted list which summarized the matter much more eloquently. For the most part those things would be disagreements over external (and mostly superficial) stuff that we've beat to death here. TV, shoes, tee shirts, caps, kilts (http://realmenwearkilts.net!), and stuff like that. More importantly, stuff like our attitudes (elitism, legalism, etc.), our love (or lack of), in short: our application of the teaching. Doctrinally speaking, I only have a few things that come to mind, some of which are included in the above list... divorce & remarriage (mostly our attitudes toward those who were and not specifically the negative portrayal of divorce in the Bible), clothing laws from the OT presented as NT laws, men not wearing caps while praising God (lest anyone think I'm only concerned with feminine issues!!), the prevention of women from using certain gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the silent requirement of those women. Doctrinal agreement would categorize me more than doctrinal disagreement (especially with the Gideon's army message and the theological teachings). Got to get the hamburgers on the grill now… bye! Blessings, William
Hombre wrote: 1.Yeah...what about Tom Hamilton....? I think that if you so a search on his name, somewhere along the line I saw a mailing address and some other info..but I can't remember where....... 2. We know that there is no God on Obama...er...Osama.....er..... ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ Hombre, sorry that I was not being clear in my ref to Tom.............try this Ref the statement made by Capturedbygrace May 2, 2008 about FA. (They seem near as I can tell to be custodians of the message, and I wonder if their job isn't to bring those truths to other parts of the body of Christ that are part of the remnant and don't know it yet.) 1. Why couldn't Tom be Custodian or keeper of the message as well as Joe or some of the other Bodies in Indiana, as if to say anyone has copyrights on Gods Word...... 2.Wonder who James was talkin to down there ? Capturedbygrace.............Question ? Why couldn't Moulder be the Custodian.......I think he has All or most of the Tapes of Bro Freeman; or could any good come out of Alabama (smile) Sorry James, dont mean to rub ya the wrong way now......you southern folks can be little touchy at times. Capturedbygrace:......Question ? What about you an others on this board ? Are we just dead meat or could all of us be part of that Remnant also ? If that be true: What ! are we a Remnant of ? Faith Assembly or Truth taught from The Word of God ?
Good morning, all! Y'all said (getting into Southern mode : Capturedbygrace.............Question ? Why couldn't Moulder be the Custodian.......I think he has All or most of the Tapes of Bro Freeman; or could any good come out of Alabama (smile) Sorry James, dont mean to rub ya the wrong way now......you southern folks can be little touchy at times. Capturedbygrace:......Question ? What about you an others on this board ? Are we just dead meat or could all of us be part of that Remnant also ? If that be true: What ! are we a Remnant of ? Faith Assembly or Truth taught from The Word of God ? I love these questions - I won't answer the specific one about Alabama - I could be treading on dangerous territory--that would be dumb--and we know I'm not dumb...right?...I'm not hearing anything... William could be "custodian" in the way FA is meant to be a) by going back and identifying with her or b) if he'd been led to raise up another body with that specific focus--to demonstrate God is faithful in every detail of life. It sounds like he (and you all) try to demonstrate that now, but I understand he was not led at least to this point to start a body for that specific purpose with that specific call... you are in a church "out here" now, right William? For the record, I don't think any of us are dead meat. And I do believe all who believe and are doing their best to embrace the message God gave are a remnant, not of Faith Assembly, but of Truth taught from the Word of God. I think that viewing ourselves, as you rightly pointed out, as "a remnant of Faith Assembly" is part of that "elitist mentality chaff." For that matter, I also believe others that we don't know of yet will prove by their life and walk that they also are part of the remnant of the Word of God, and that is why I'm so very against idolizing FA. Making an idol of it twists the truth and tries to make it ineffective. If any of us (including me) is holding on to anything but Jesus, we are already in error. That includes Faith Assembly--if they are "proud to be keepers of the flame," I believe that's definitely "chaff." Acknowledging that very emphatically, I'm going back to what I'm seeing. Faith Assembly sees her calling as a body as a "keeper of the good Word of God we were taught" (even though her sight at present is mixed with chaff). Everybody, I have a question for you - are you in a body where all of those truths are proclaimed and taught all the time, and where people have been wrestling and trying to live them for over 30 years? If so, you also are "keepers of the truth of the Word of God" in the same way they are (as I said of William), which means on both an individual level and on a body level. True, Joe Brenneman as pastor has not been there that long, but he's been there since 1988 and pastored there for 14 years...and others have been there much longer... . I believe with all my heart there is something God wants to do with that group that we out here as individuals cannot do. I also really cannot say fully what that is because I only have an inkling...but I think it's very important (but not in that twisted, elitist sense!)--and it can't happen unless the chaff is seen and removed through repentance by that body. I believe we too are part of the remnant taught the Word of God. We too have a specific unique place as part of the "scattered remnant of the truths of God's Word" if we aren't called to be with her. We have a call that Faith Assembly as a body cannot do "out here." (Individuals can squeeze into places and influence things in a way a body can't and vice versa.) In the future I wouldn't put it past God even to draw some back to Faith Assembly if He has a purpose for her (and if He drew some of you, you would then be a keeper of the Word in the way they are called to be)--but if He ever did, I think He would have finished the mighty work of removing the chaff from her first, so that the only thing ever acknowledged would be that the body stood by the grace of God (though they already acknowledge that and are partly broken), and no one would ever think in that elitist manner that they had to be a "guardian of the truth." (If you are a "guardian of the truth" in the flesh, your own strength, you can get paranoid and all sorts of other things that don't produce God's fruit.) Let me make it clear: I believe they are standing in the integrity of their heart, but they are operating with an elitist mentality that is crippling them -and they can't see it even if someone were to point it out. The thing is, the enemy will try and twist our attitudes if he can't cause us to disbelieve the Word of God. I know what I'm talking about--six years before my husband divorced me, I told him one day that we (at that point) served two different G(g)ods. He got very angry at first, but the next day came back and said I was right. - He served a task-master god whom he was always afraid to displease. He used the truths of positive confession, etc to not have to deal with things. But he thought I was compromising and serving a different god! Now, there was a point in time where I served a false, distorted god. Just as he couldn't see his view was distorted, I couldn't see mine was. (But by the time I said he and I served different G(g)ods, God had convicted me and turned me on my ear. He said I had used faith to keep from having to deal with life...that I was afraid of life and tried to use God and His Word as a "magic wand" to avoid problems. That is why we then served two different G(g)ods. I had repented.) Faith Assembly's elitist chaff, unbeknownst to them is crippling them just like my chaff had crippled me. I've grown by leaps and bounds since repenting of it (that doesn't mean that there isn't more to go...). Her chaff is a little different at this point in time. Her chaff blocks her from seeing any use for the rest of us, and the rest of the body of Christ. It keeps her cloistered (I don't care if they for example, feel led to dress a certain way, not look at media, ... --they should have their faith toward God--but the chaff is what causes them to, so to speak, hold it over my head (even though they wrestle against it and work very hard to try not to--the fact that there is any work to it at all means there is some chaff). She can't come into her own as the body God wants and have the influence He wants her to have till He gets rid of what's holding her back. Is any of this making sense? Well, before I go I have a prayer request. Twice since January (second time was last evening) the enemy has (first time ever) tried to give me some mini-stroke symptoms. God is my healer, and I'm just trusting for His wisdom--I'm holding that He knows my body, He knows how to deal with it and me. I receive His healing in Jesus' name, and I can do everything (Eph 2:10 works) He has planned for my life. No weapon formed against me shall prosper, and I don't go to join Him till His perfect time. Would you join me in prayer? Also, the timing of things: it started just before I started "googling" Faith Assembly. The areas the enemy tried to attack are speech, my writing/typing and my mind (thinking clearly). Thank you, friends...
Okay, quickie--splitting Lake Michigan in half--has potential. Just think what you could do with that, Hombre! --You might say it could profit the prophet. I just wanted you to know I saw this, and hope some of today's comments (which I put out before I saw this) address at least some of these concerns, and some of what I'm definitely not saying as well as what I am saying.
My thoughts on "KEEPERS" of the Word, am I seeing some type of rivalry going on concerning who is the keeper of Gods message? Are not all who walk in what we recieved and share it with others, the keepers of the Word? Remember I said these are just my thoughts,and I'm not in Indiana,(and it's questionable if good really can come out of Ala.)<said in jest> but I sense maybe pride in who is REALLY keeping The Word as HEF taught it,and stayed or lives in Indiana, verses those who are scattered and can't really be Gods remnant due to their geographical location. Now I'd really like to be able to say that I've been a keeper of God's Word over the last 20+ yrs. but that would be somewhat untrue. I've spent quite a bit of that time trying to gain a balance and come to grips with where I stand with my Lord. At the same time I can say I haven't given up believing for God to raise up a army of believers who are equipted as we were starting to become, without the crap we got into through pride and legalism (not everone, just most)to set this groaning creation free, to actually see the Church of Jesus Christ DOING the works of God in a way the unbelieving world will be drawn to HIM, not Faith Assembly or Indiana or "ALABAMA" but JESUS. Custodians, Keepers, 3 pastors in Indiana, Tom Hamilton, William, Hombre??? How bout ALL who with diligence and pure hearts hold fast to THE WORD of GOD and LIVE IT???
I like keepers, James, and to me any who are trying to live the things of which they've been convicted from hearing God speak through Faith Assembly whether by tape or being there qualifies. Not only that, but anyone working out their salvation who is walking it without ever hearing it even indirectly from those sources qualifies! The only reason I never speak of Tom Hamilton is because I haven't heard him for over 20 years! The same with any other minister or body--I only know of that one, and as the one where lots of us got lots of good things, I believe they are needing prayer help whether they know it or not. I don't ever mean to come across elitist--there should be no competition! For all I know there could be 100 bodies living it all over the country who have never even heard of FA and Hobart Freeman--and they could conceivably not have any battles with "chaff" to boot. But again, I can only speak of what I know--no one in or out or having heard from there or somewhere else or by revelation from God is a "second class citizen." There should be no rivalry--I am of Paul, I am of Apollos. That's not in the farthest corner of my mind! I guess what I get a sense of is God is calling warriors to battle. If any other body or individual you know of is being attacked by that chaff when trying to live the Word, they need to be included in the prayer too. Pride over keeping the Word is just as much of a snare as turning our backs on it, and God says He resists the proud. What I'm saying is that there is a call of God to help others being put to those body(ies) (FA, and any others you know--I truly am not exposed to others now) that proclaim the truth of the Word if they are in any way trying to keep it today. The only way that can happen is if the "chaff" of pride, elitism, yes competition, or whatever that would hinder them is prayed over by those who have been dealing with this stuff for years and at least have come to some sort of balance. Now I'd really like to be able to say that I've been a keeper of God's Word over the last 20+ yrs. but that would be somewhat untrue. I've spent quite a bit of that time trying to gain a balance and come to grips with where I stand with my Lord. That's me too, James. Sometimes with me it's "Lord I believe, help my unbelief." Sometimes it's, "Where am I lopsided, Lord?" At the same time I can say I haven't given up believing for God to raise up an army of believers who are equipped as we were starting to become, without the crap we got into through pride and legalism (not everyone, just most) to set this groaning creation free, to actually see the Church of Jesus Christ DOING the works of God in a way the unbelieving world will be drawn to HIM, not Faith Assembly or Indiana or "ALABAMA" but JESUS. Me too, brother--and that's precisely where if we pray and ask God I think He wants to work at FA, and in any body (and individual) which got into the pride, legalism. They/we could be convicted of this "chaff," and you know what would be left if they/we repented??? Just what you describe, brother, just what you describe. That's what I think God wants to do. It isn't His desire to have to "reinvent that wheel" but to make the wheel(s) that He already created usable through repentance--and add everyone else who wants to go with it--to Jesus-not pride and competition and an "elite body." And this is so good, I'm going to pirate it for my ending. James said: Custodians, Keepers, 3 pastors in Indiana, Tom Hamilton, William, Hombre??? How bout ALL who with diligence and pure hearts hold fast to THE WORD of GOD and LIVE IT??? Yes!
My first post...this is scary.... I must say that my sensitivity to the spirit has been coming to lfe as I read these tremendous truths & observations from brothers & sisters I've likely never met - yet we have so much in common! My time with Faith Assembly was precious and I'm thankful. Yet I have sought a balance while still wanting to go deeper. I've noticed that some blessings just won't come until my heart is right with my husband, children, in-laws, co-workers - and believe me, I'm a work in progress! Capturedbygrace - you have touched my heart in a way I cannot describe. Without the elitism I've tried to shed, I think you are on to something! The bonds of the indviduals of the past, present, and future Faith Assembly may well yet become a force that must be reckoned with! All those years of sleepless nights, praying for one another, formed bonds in the spirit that I believe will last. Those prayer-ties may seem non-existent for now, but they are there and will be revealed in God's time by the spirit. I shall indeed pray for your healing & protection from the stroke symptoms that are trying to silence your voice. Yours is a voice, with a message, that surely God wants me to be hearing MORE of in these troubled times! Blessings! PR
Hombre don't be offended, I haven't left you out......I got just the thing, for the slashing & burning & parting the lake. Being that we are all in this togeather. Lets have a Seminar ! We need a name for it.......Ok, someone come up with a name or Topic for the Seminar. We'll need a centralized town for a meeting point & a building or a park or Fair Grounds. We could start the preaching at 9:00 am & go till 9:00 pm or till the Holy Spirit is done. Ok, here is my suggested line up of speakers.... 9:00 am Hombre...................................(the slashing an burning will get there eyes open-They will be awake) 10:00 am Michael the Disciple...............( Michael will touch there hearts with the purity & Holiness of Gods Word) 11:00 am Capturedbygrace...................(By this time the people will need a kind an gentle voice to heal there flesh) 12:01 pm Moulder...............................(He will capture there hearts with wisdom from on high) 1:00 pm Sageshrooner.......................(after Moulder, she will have her hands full, to pick up the pieces with wisdom & Love) 2:00 pm Mark 11:24..........................( the Word just keeps getting stronger) 3:00 pm JRS....................................( a man after Gods heart, full of the Holy Spirit) 4:00 pm James.................................( His desire is to draw all of us closer to God) 5:00 pm Hardbones............................(street smart an Has a unconditional love for others & Gods Word) 6:00 pm Whitearizona.........................(Defender of the Faith in Gods Word) 7:00 pm DBH.....................................(has an uncompromising Faith in Gods Word to heal an set free from all sickness) 8:00 pm Tomax7.................................(much wisdom from his continual walk in Jesus Christ an His Word) Intercession will continue thru out the Seminar, Gifts of The Holy Spirit should comeforth as the Spirit bids. Laying on of Hands for Healing will continue thru out the meeting as the Spirit wills. Praise & worship will continue thru out the night. 9:00 am We'll start all over again......! Wow ! what a Line up......I have been so Blessed to have crossed paths with all of you.........! Ok now..!.......what do ya think ?.......We could make this happen..!...
Brother Ron, this sounds like a wonderful idea, count me in! It makes me smile to dream of getting together with these precious saints of God and worshipping our Lord. The all night paise and worship sounds great! And speaking of worship I just got Carl Seitz's CD's from Musicman and they are outstanding, I would highly recommend them. I know God has great things for us ahead, but I do miss some of the old days with the fellowship of the saints, the Word that was taught and of course, the heavenly worship and gifts of the Holy Spirit and all the testimonies that people glorified God with. But I know we don't need to settle for what we had, but to look ahead for what God has for us today and tomorrow and as long as the Lord tarries, because it is going to be/is wonderful. Thanks again Ron for the edifying lineup, it truly blessed my evening!
Up date on the Seminar: Those not listed above, feel free to move as the Spirit leads to minister to others. All times and speakers are tenitive an subject to the Holy Spirit as He moves amoung us. No real names will be published so not take any Glory from the Lord Jesus Christ. First names and or Internet handles will be acceptable. This will be a Wonderful time in the Lord. Blessings to all in Jesus Name
Thank you, dear sister, and from my little corner, welcome! I figured if anyone could stand with me it is those who've been doing their best to walk the message God has given us. It is a privilege to have your prayer. God bless your day, sis!
Thank you, brother. You seem to have the lineup in good order, but judging from what I've already seen this morning we may need to add at least one more to the list... God is at work... It could happen. God bless your day, brother, and I appreciate you as well.
Sounds like a wonderful idea to me as well. God bless your day, sis.
Duncan should get the first slot... it has been a long time since we've had anyone worthy to critique! <grin> I can hardly wait! William
Quote: Hombre:...so should we roll over and play dead, or should we stand for righteousness by casting votes? Which begs the question: Who would you suggest voting for? Or to put it in the vernacular: WWJVF? <grin> Blessings, William
You clown... I was about to spend an inordinate amount of time in an attempt to convince you that prayer isn't a wasted exercise. Not to mention my efforts to obtain the coveted "A+" that would no doubt result from my unassailable logic concerning the differences between the world's kingdoms and the fifth Kingdom to come! Unless of course you would have allowed your prejudices against the kilt overwhelm your good judgment? Blessings, William
God's coffee cup...I like that (seriously)...you mean inside the heart of a person with a "slash and burn anointing" there can be the soul of a poet? My son has the "slash and burn anointing" - we've been talking about it since it came up here...while he's not got the soul of a poet (unique poetic imagery, I'll admit), he's a neat guy...
Okay--you'll appreciate (maybe) what my "slash and burn" son did in Indiana's primary--he did a write-in vote for Mike Huckabee...I said, "But he isn't running." He said, "Well if enough people would write him in you bet he would... ." He doesn't quite think like FA taught me about voting--speaking of, that's an area I'm not entirely comfortable with...I vote only after I've prayed if the Lord tells me to...sounds different, but I wasn't a political science major, and I have very little understanding of all the ins and outs of politics--so I figure if God tells me who to vote for (won't be either of the two democrats this time...) it won't be a mistake. When Mr. Clinton was running first time, God said, "Go on record as opposed to him; it won't do any good, but do it anyway... ." That was the year I got some lessons in storms and clouds...inky black things riding across the sky...I sensed violence in them and asked God what I could do...He had me ride all around the small town I lived in at the time with warfare music (Integrity/Hosanna warfare sampler) wafting reasonably quietly out my windows, and said that what I was sensing was the demons riding to Washington (they've never left...). They wanted to break out in mischief on the way, and God said as I aligned with the worship on the tape I would be agreeing with their anointing and not be warring alone. I could pray protection over my town, but no rebuking--He was permitting this. --Now you know I'm even stranger than you suspected... I agree with your wife who said: ...' isn't it odd that in this time of increased information becoming available to us, and all of the alternate sources of information that we have to learn from, that it seems as though people are actually becoming more ignorant rather than more informed? '.... Yes...but people today don't scratch below the surface...takes too much effort...their favorite TV show is coming on... . Oh! (Note: this is poking fun at me, not your system.) I just noticed I got "upgraded." Thank you. I wondered if I had to behave myself for a year first (impossible!), but then decided to just be myself, and I would either get upgraded to regular member eventually or kicked out! Glad this happened first.
Praise Jesus for His Faithfullness, The Now Report ! Just returned from the ER of our local hospital......a lady from our church was there, she had been in the ER six times in the last week. She had been having bad reactions to the medications they had put her on. She was crying, she couldn't breath she was shaking, she said it felt like her chest was caving in. The poor girl looked as if she was 20yrs older than she really was..She looked really bad. The ER was full an her & her husband were sitting in the main hall way by the nurses station on a bed. A Brother from church had called an asked if I would meet them at the ER......Yep, I'll be there..The two of us walked in, we spoke to our sister an she requested that we pray... We prayed for a few moments in the Spirit out loud, in the main hall way of the ER....Oh my ! I laid hands on her head....spoke a few words..........It was done ! She said she would be ok an we walked out.Her An her husband were still sitting on the bed. My brother an I walked to our cars an were talking , we looked back towards the ER entrance an Praise Jesus.....Here comes our sister, walking out of the ER, She is Smiling an breathing an has no pain an she is going home because God has healed her.
Really neat testimony, brother. God is still working--and He wants to do it "out here" wherever!
2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. Psa 18:27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks. Psa 18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness. Psa 18:29 For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God have I leaped over a wall. Psa 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him. Thanks for the uplifting testimony brother! Makes me want to leap over a wall this AM! Blessings, William
AMEN – Great testimony. Last night heard a testimony of healing of laryngitis from Sunday meeting. Lady could hardly speak; this had started on Friday evening. She went for prayer at the end of the meeting and within minutes her voice was cleared up. Praise God.
Yup! Hombre, you are one sensitive guy! You are offering all those who want to beat you up an opportunity to "get right with God" and to grow in character! How's that for sensitivity?? Maybe you would appreciate the viewpoint of my "slash and burn" son (the one who, when I told him I had tried all those years to "civilize" him said, "Mom, you compromised me! ) as evidenced from a quote from his blog: There are a lot of guys out there who have lost touch with what being a guy is all about. ...For instance, a guy can use a hair brush but he should never "brush" his hair. He can use the "brush" to comb his hair. ...One of my biggest pet peeves is hearing the word cute or pretty in reference to me or something I own! ...This vulgar use of words must not continue!! We must demand that "rugged" or "handsome" or even "ruggedly handsome" replace the obscene use of these other aforementioned words. ... Ah, well, I'll get on with things But look out, your "poetic soul" is showing again, and I quote you: ...and don't forks in the road also serve as tape measures of the soul? Yes they do. One time when God was delivering me out of a tough situation, every time I went to make a decision for a whole six months He said, "This is what so and so decided at this point--now what is your choice?" (The good news is that so and so is getting a wonderful new opportunity--and I pray the person make choices that "go with God" this time...)
All kidding aside, it took people with the slash and burn mentality with regard to the denom system to open my eyes...started with Br Freeman, then when I was "leveled" and God put me back in the system for a season it took others to get me to really look at the system. What can I say now, but that even though I've been sent into the system (and I'm no longer "hiding out there"), my instructions are to walk in visible demonstration of Jesus...no compromise! And now our body is "exploding from within... ." Truthfully, the system is deadly. It robs people of all that the Lord is all the while claiming to represent Him... .
Hey all! I don't want to give a wrong impression (though I don't think you took it that way, Hombre). In regards to my son's comment about my having compromised him while I was trying to civilize him, let me make it clear--I was only trying to teach my son wisdom in when to use "slash and burn" and when not to, (his slash and burn started early...) like: "Don't go (when you're 14) to the pastor and tell him all that's wrong with the church - he was right - unless the Lord says - if you aren't led to but just want to you are stepping out of the Lord's protection - He's showing you to teach you discernment and prayer... ." I did not even get or allow any of our guys to get a brush to "comb" their hair ...there were no purposeful feminizing tendencies...in fact, since I was a single mother much of the time, I really prayed for good masculine role models... I am very thankful they all are true men (not one of them reads "O"!!) who love God and respect and appreciate who God made them and women (one is married, while the other two are still unmarried, though they've prayed for the Lord's choice for wives or the grace to remain single). What you're saying about society/TV today is right...I can't even look at "Queer..." because the title bothers me so much. The first time I turned on "Will and Grace" it lasted only long enough to see the focus...okay, I confess I like HGTV (but I am a woman)...but there are also other anti-God things like (I didn't even try to watch one episode here) "Sex and the City," and what about "Friends"--not the kind I think of... . The TV execs are trying to "program" our nation through entertainment and they seem to be doing a pretty good job for the most part... .
Hombre wrote: ....sometimes, I think that one drug leads to another to another and so on. ...before one knows it, they have problems that are not even related to the original. My wife has a friend who is an absolute hypochondriac....and over time, her issues have multiplied, so much so that their lives now revolve around these issues completely. They no longer have lives. Sad thing is, she is a Christian, but obviously, their 'church' has neither ever taught nor even inferred that healing through faith in God is a possibility. The unbelief is rooted so deeply, that I don't know if they'll ever get free. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- This is what we deal with on a weekly basis, our little group is not, an never will be part of the Denom...system..! But don't fooled : The system is STILL IN THEM ! and as you said: (.....this is the type of issue that creates and maintains my slash and burn mentality with reference to the denom church system). I say: Amen....... Amen...... Amen.......mine also ! capturedbygrace wrote on Thu, 08 May 2008 09:39 ....Truthfully, the system is deadly. It robs people of all that the Lord is all the while claiming to represent Him... . Capturedbygrace, I also agree with you an Hombre on this 100 %: Hombre wrote: ....someday when I grow up, I'll initiate my own threads..... Hombre don't ever grow up ! I like ya just as you are ! Feel free to use my threads any time ya want ! JRS: Thanks for sharring the wonders of Gods faithfulness to His people !
AMEN and AMEN JW & Hombre The DENOM system – that permeated the whole Charismatic movement, and yes even FA and the body I was part of. You couldn’t have said it any better - But don't fooled : The system is STILL IN THEM ! I posed this question earlier - Is our concept of church itself correct???? Or because of our preconceived notions we hold onto, resulting in fostering the issues we are discussing??? Jae gave some responses and it is a good post – yet I cannot agree fully with it. #1821 There is only 1 TRUE church – Spirit Filled – The apostles were commanded to remain in Jerusalem until they received the promise from the Father. There is a reason Jesus himself commanded that and for others to explain away the Baptism, are they not denying the power of God in there lives. I praise God and have the utmost respect for HEF and others that took the truths that were revealed to them and had the burden to teach them. I cannot fault the individuals for the damage that was done and might still be happening. To use an expression, I do not believe they are able to see the forest for the trees. The Denom system had fulfilled what it has been successful doing from the time of the end of the NT church with the apostles. Thus the argument has stood – all signs and wonders stopped with the apostles. I pose this question again, not to begin a debate about it but to get a better understanding of how deception has entered in. All the posters here have insight and some very reveling thoughts. It seems as though God is working, and with all the time that has past, a number of us have chosen to examine and be truthful with our experiences. I believe we all have the same desire – to Please God and to be a vessel of honor for Him. There is a worldly axiom – The best teacher is the school of hard knocks. So true – has been and still is, even though we have all this access to information. So True Hombre in what your wife said - ....' isn't it odd that in this time of increased information becoming available to us, and all of the alternate sources of information that we have to learn from, that it seems as though people are actually becoming more ignorant rather than more informed? '.... We have been So desensitized as a result of all this information that many rationalize things away and forget the basics. This even true pertaining to the things of the world. Whether it is through the media, or even our everyday experiences. They all seem to speaking out with the same voice – COMPROMISE. – Marshmallow love --- Yes even the denom churches have been deluged with this. They have to keep up with most others – otherwise who would they give their stars out to??? I fully understand what Jae is trying to get at and agree with it as far as the premise for what he is saying. The answer is not in fellowshipping with other churches!!!! To do this would only result in compromise in the least or the elitist attitude that was mentioned. It’s an exiting time we have the privilege to live in. I think it is very interesting seeing what the US has done as a nation over the last 50 years. - Changed whole countries and cultures. - Promoted freedom and how one can believe in oneself. These countries are now set to promote what they believe is the best kingdom and we know who is in control of ALL the kingdoms of this world. I’m waiting for something to take place and we will see an uprising of a spirit of patriotism that the true colors of this country will stand out. It will definitely define what god the denominations choose to worship. JRS It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Hombre wrote: Yeppers....that is really the problem isn't it? They may have borrowed a form of our ( charismatic ) worship, by donning guitars in favor of pipe organs, and changed the sign to read: Non-Denominational Full-Gospel Bible Study Worship Center, but the people still cling to the whole 'stand up/sit down' mentality. ....to be sort of well....cruel...it reminds me of a scripture: '.....having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof......' ....and that really isn't far from the truth, when they begin that whole round of NON-scriptural notions about God helping those who help themselves and that's why God heals through the doctors now....apparently, they believe that Luke was a 'form' or 'shadow' of 'those that were to come'....a sort of twist on the whole Messianic prophecy thing...... ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------- Yeppers...... that was a little cruel.......being some of them really do want to draw closer to God an do it His way. Yeppers...that could be said for some of us also......even us from FA ! Hombre Wrote: ....I wonder what would happen if they actually read the Bible they say they preach? ......you know, that verse that says something like this: '...and these signs SHALL follow those THAT BELIEVE:....IN MY NAME they SHALL: ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------- Hombre, what signs are following you ? What is God doing in your life today ? Please share the wonders of His work in your life today !
Hombre wrote: Uh-oh.......the gun is aimed at me...... ....of course I could read this in 2 different ways. 1. A sarcastic challenge. 2. A legitimate request. First things first then. ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------- Hombre, It was A LEGITIMATE request . Not a sarcastic challenge. I'll put the guns down for now. Thank you Brother
JWBTI wrote on Sat, 10 May 2008 05:33: ...being some of them really do want to draw closer to God and do it His way. Hombre wrote in reply: Yes, unfortunately for 'them', 'they' are being taught by people who purposefully or ignorantly distort/hide/omit obvious scriptural truths.... Time to throw my two cents in--I agree that some want to draw closer to God, but the system keeps them ignorant. My pastor is a second-generation Assembly of God pastor. All he's ever known is pastoring the system's way. The system kept him ignorant, and he just did what he learned, passing it on till God started revealing Himself... . He says the questions he's asking God (and his people) now are nothing he learned in seminary training. Now the heritage of Assembly of God is tongue-talking, believe God heals today, and a few more things. But I can know and do those things and still have no results (and if I'm not seeking God about it, isn't that another way of having the form but denying the power?). In fact, I think it is even more deceptive to know about it and, as Hombre I believe says somewhere make God like our experience. Or else, we can become prideful that we know and act, and say, "it must just not be time," or "I'm ready God when You are...," but not really seek to grow. Oh, there are just so many ways to get around God's claims on us as His people... . But the catch is I don't know anybody if they are utterly honest who hasn't been tempted with this (sitting down on God) in some form or other. So how do we avoid it? (The following ideas aren't necessarily in order...) #1- We fellowship with like-minded believers by being (for example) on this forum and using it the way it was intended. As Hombre said, The entire purpose of this forum is to allow us (former FAers') to begin to separate what IS Biblical truth from what was merely personal opinion and/or legalism, and to once again grow and stretch toward the high calling that we have. If we will involve ourselves with a right attitude, we can learn from one another and prayerfully take the things we hear to God (thank you so very much for providing this place, by the way--and for investing yourselves in it!) #2- We can keep reading the Word, praying and seeking God. Again, as Hombre says: Whether...we (any of us) have these supernatural manifestations working in our lives is really beside the point ...what is important to me however, is that we don't DENY the fact that they ARE written. We can't make anything happen, but we can honor our God by continuing to sit at His feet. We can ask all sorts of questions if we have the right attitude, which is that of a learner. Again, Hombre said, What else is important, as I reiterate, is that we attempt to find out WHY, instead of dismissing certain scriptures because they are difficult. #3- One more thing I can do is refuse (and that takes prayerful work at times!) to criticize the system and the people in it. Now before I lose you, I want to say why. If I criticize, I have placed myself above them (pride), and I have not made it easy for someone to come and pick my brain. Also, if I criticize, I am possibly talking against brothers and sisters, judging their spirituality...and grieving the Holy Spirit. I don't mean I can't say anything...if I don't criticize, and if I seek God, I think He will be able to use me much more to "plunder the system." Which is more important? My feeling good letting off steam about the system, no matter how true, or my seeking God's words and His heart so that anything I say comes out under the anointing with His power--power to deliver the smoking flax and bruised reed (not stomp it in my pride), and yes, in God's time and way power to "slash and burn" to set people free? If God doesn't separate me from my flesh here first though, I could end up being ineffectual because I'm without the anointing, or I could end up like Moses when he smote the rock the second time when he was to speak to it (since it was a type of Christ who was only struck once)...the people in that instance still got what they needed, but because Moses was speaking out of his own heart ("righteous?" indignation towards the people, fighting God's battle with the people in the flesh?)--and didn't obey and honor and glorify God, he didn't get to partake, but could only see the land from afar. I truly don't want that. I don't want weak Christians caught in the enemy's snare in the system to be stumbled by me--and I want what I say about the system to be what He wants said, when and where and how He wants it said. My wrath over the situation does not work God's righteousness. The best thing that happened to me, brothers and sisters, was for God to put me in my church 6 3/4 years ago, give me a vision for what potential it had in God (there have been exceptional things here from the beginning...), and permission to tell one person. Then He told me to "sit down and be quiet"--for 4 or so years!!! Then He gave me the job of being prayer warrior for the pastor and the church, and to still keep quiet unless asked. The funny thing is, I began to be asked a lot by pastor and some people. The Lord had me recently go over 2005 prayers I wrote down for the church--they are happening now!! Sitting down tempered me and helped keep me from getting into presumption--and when I had nothing to do or say, I had lots of down time to struggle with God to receive His love (giving Him my judgments-and there were several) for these people who were still trapped in the system. But that love is what gives God's power and authenticity to my words when He wants me to speak. I realize not everyone is called to do as I do--however, I believe God is wanting us all to be very careful how and where we speak. This is His work. He (not me) is going to build His church--I just get to fit in where and how and when He says. I do believe things are changing. I do believe God is reaching in and giving revelation to a minister here and there. I do believe He is also giving them not only a hatred of religion, but a hatred of pride. I also believe God is raising up people outside the system, humble, bold people who are filled with God's vision, His heart, His Spirit and His words.--I think it is not all going to look like I think it will, and if I'm not careful, I could miss what God is doing right under my nose... Lord, please help me to be totally dependent on You in what I think, do, and say. I don't want to speak fleshly judgments, even (or especially) if I am educated by the Spirit. I want to have Your heart, eyes and ears, and I want my tongue and everything else to be under Your control. I don't ever want to use the knowledge You have given me without Your wisdom and timing, but I also don't want to remain silent and fail to let You speak through me. I don't want the message You give me to share to be watered down or twisted by my flesh. Please help me accurately represent You. As I do, I believe with all my heart that these other things, the miracles and healings and all that You have out there for me to do will just be there if I continue seeking You with all my heart. Thank You for Your mercy, grace and compassion on my life, and thank you for not letting me get comfortable where You want me to stretch--either by sitting down or by faith-filled action. Lord, also thank You for all these brothers and sisters who want to know You and do Your will. Please help them find the place You have for them in Your body, and help them know how to function powerfully and faithfully where You place them. Bless them with heavenly vision and heavenly wisdom that draws everyone around them that You've ordained to Yourself. Thank you much, Lord, in Jesus' name.
Hi, Hombre! Thank you for noticing the time and effort I put into my comments. Anything worth doing... . You said: I can agree with it all, except for this part which is to me, about 50/50. I understand what you're saying about being gentle with believers (where would I be myself, if Jesus hadn't met me where He did?...and might I add..still does...) Okay, okay, friend! First, I very much appreciate your comment about being gentle with believers. I know you've been so with me. I have a question for you, though. (And I'm not particularly on your case--I know others who feel the same way, and from what I've seen so far it goes with the "slash and burn anointing," which I would otherwise think is apostolic for the most part.) How is this kind of response going to build good working relationships with others of us in the body of Christ who are not led to do it the way you are? Do you even honestly respect or appreciate our giftings? I wonder if you even think what we do could be of God since you say: however, I never find it convenient or righteous to sit and listen to any kind of error coming from any pulpit and sit there with a smile on my face, continuing on afterward for cookies and milk. First, in discussing this, I am not trying to change you into being like me (my guys tell me we don't need any more of me when I threaten to clone myself). - I'm not asking you to sit and listen to any kind of error...that's not your calling. For you, it would be compromise. (More about that below.) However, just because you can't do it, does that mean the rest of us who are working from within the structure are lukewarm, or fraternizing with the enemy, or compromising or... ?? I quote: ....perhaps...there are people like yourself, who are blessed in such a way (my comment: what makes me think you don't see it as a blessing, or perhaps as even a legitimate gifting?) as to be able to stomach such tasteless and oftentimes rancid gruel as I have heard coming from the mouths of 'well-meaning', possibly daft fellows, and wait and wait and wait until they may perhaps accept for the purpose of tasting, a smidgeon of the meat you have to offer, (my comment: how do you know how much they will receive-each case stands on its own, doesn't it? and do you really think God would send us somewhere we would be wasting our time? Whatever the results, we aren't wasting our time if we were sent.) but I frankly do not have enough time left in my life to waste on trivial pursuits (my comment: you have, perhaps without meaning to, just tried to trivialize--you can't if God really did call us--the lives of all your brothers and sisters who are called to operate in this way). Before I go on, I need to admit that I never used to appreciate the "slash and burn anointing" and used to try to "pray away" that kind of thinking and personality that went with it in my then-husband, but that was before I understood. God set me straight reasonably quickly on that. - One day the Lord said he needed the strength of that personality to sustain/carry his giftings. What He wanted me to pray instead was that he be totally submitted to the Holy Spirit. That worked for me, brother. I began to see that if he, my son and others didn't have that anointing, the true church of Jesus Christ wouldn't get very far. You-all are God's sledge-hammers, the way-makers. You make a path where there is none, and you clear out man's debris. Furthermore, the body of Jesus Christ will not be operating rightly till we can receive "your kind" in our ranks without rolling our eyes at the "trouble you cause!" God gave you-all to us, and we need you!! We are sinning against God and the body not to receive that. I just happen to think that the respect and appreciation God began to give me for that anointing is meant to go both ways. But what I see here is the "clash of giftings" and/or the differing administration of gifts. Hombre, can you acknowledge the possibility that some of us are at times led to be "God's undercover agents" without making us feel less or like Benedict Arnold? You say: It has just been my experience to be continuously rejected by such, no matter what sort of attractive presentation I arrange, with which I serve the meat by. You could be sowing seeds, or that really is a waste of your time. You say: They like sugar and milk, and that is what they like. ...oh yes, add a large dollop of guilt and community/church service and there you have it. You make it sound like they are putting people on parole (community service...) -which isn't that offbase. But what I don't think you understand about some of us is that we aren't there to go along with the system--we are there to not get sucked in, to demonstrate living differently, to pray against the strongholds, and begin to see people set free...
Part 2 of my reply - thought you were rid of me at least for a while, didn't you, heh, heh? Hombre, you say: I need to be fed things like FAITH and DEATH TO THE SELF LIFE in order to survive and continue growing, and I DON'T GET IT THERE. I am not the consummate apostle, who can weather any storm including the barrage of delusional/deceptive theology and come away not being affected by it. Nor can I come away unaffected by it, brother. I have had to learn to "dig wells in the desert" for myself and to do as David did-encourage himself in the Lord. Though I know we're not meant to stay in the desert indefinitely, I do believe we find out more what we think of God's Word when we are "out there" with seemingly no accountability. You say: Now, as to the 'why' behind why it affects me that way, I don't know...but I have a smidgeon of thought about that. 1. It could be from watching brothers and sisters wrestle unto death with the Word of God, having NOT received the promise of healing in their physical bodies (or healing for their children, or seeing the Word of God itself contribute to divorce when both parties don't walk the same walk, or...) yet believing nonetheless I understand that-but that is not all there is to it...there are the things we learn along the way...I would never, ever have volunteered for the trials I've been through, but every so often I get "out of the valley" long enough to see where I've been, where I'm headed, and what I'm learning along the way...I'm getting gold from them thar hills and valleys!! It's hard to remember in the midst of pain sometimes, but when I get a breather, I see just a glimpse of how worth it this walk is... . And I feel sorrow for those who don't know of it. You know once someone said to me, "I can't see any reason for God to have placed you where you are (in the body that's transforming before my very eyes--this was said before the transformation started manifesting) unless He sent you in as a missionary to the church...but I've never heard of that." So?? Since when can't something that we've never heard of happen? And some are "converting... ." and consequently watching...people who apparently can't read the Kings' English well enough to know that the Bible does indeed teach just that, and instead teaching the opposite, and typecasting those who like us believe the word of God to be literal, as sorry brainwashed souls...........the mental dilemma and contradiction that creates in my head is excruciating enough without nodding along with them and accepting their definition of me as an idiot. - I don't agree with them at all or "accept their definition of me as an idiot." (Is that how they think of me? Ignorance was bliss. ) And didn't Jesus go through worse? People all the time were misunderstanding Him and His purpose. - Hombre, I can honestly understand "the people of the system" (be they 'shepherd' or 'sheep') misunderstanding us. What is harder to understand (and I can never accept) is your sometimes view of some of your other brothers and sisters who are led differently than you are! (We're talking about accepting giftings here, not people. I know you accept us as people.) I almost think you feel you have to accept us, so you say, "Whatever!" and go on. But I don't think you yet see us as God does--and that robs and hinders the body--God doesn't want lip-service in any area from any of us, even in this. 2. It's just the flat out righteous indignation of having heard the good news of the world to come, having tasted of those things, and then sitting under a ministry that denies the truth and ministers that to my fellow Christians who, though they may not have heard a tenth of what we have, are nevertheless being conformed into the image of their pastors beliefs message by insidious message, so that they become so rooted and grounded in their systems' beliefs that one might as well be speaking to a stone wall, as to be speaking to them. That's why some of us are sent--to live the truth of the Word--because speaking it is not enough. I might add there will come a time when God tells us to come out, that no more ground can be gained from within, that staying longer would backfire and begin to undo what He did through us--and I am ready for that any time, but until then, wild horses couldn't drag me away! And yes, we still need "you-all"-we need demonstration from without that we can point to... . 3. ...it's something about the Word living inside of me, that doesn't allow false doctrine a place in me, and consequently, when I hear it, I come to attention, locked and loaded.... That is why you couldn't even conceive of doing what we do--it's not within your God-appointed sphere of activity...but I'm asking for a stretch here, brother. I am asking you to get before our Lord enough to find out what He says about those of us within. And by the way? It was no less than an apostle who kept praying about my place in my church (because they were bugged about it!) who sensed God "smiling at" my pastor. Way before he looked like anything other than a person of the system, God told the apostle that my pastor was an "end-time" pastor...when things got rough, I'd always go back to God on that with an "Are You sure...?" He never has left me without guidance in the system...(except when I was hiding out there for a season because it was too painful to deal with my circumstances compared to the reality of the Word of God...and even then He was merciful--I repented and I've been forgiven, thank You, Jesus). I am exactly the way they are about their doctrine, it's just that mine happens to have Biblical basis...and I'm not ashamed to say so when I'm right. Nor are we either, brother when God leads us. Sharing parts of my story has shaken things up--enough to get us talking not just bits of meat, but strong meat. This is not an attack on you, Grace, nor an attack on my brothers and sisters out there, wherever they are, it is an attack on false religion I don't believe it is a purposeful attack against us, brother, but I do think it is still something you are wrestling with - I don't believe you see it yet as fully possible we are in the system but not of it. I believe personally, that the religious system is worse than no system at all. I do too, brother, but I believe some of us are infiltrators... . Some of this comes down to "snatching some out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh," as Jude says. ...so anyway, Lord Bless all of you who have the tenacity, looooooongsuffering, and patience to endure that sort of thing, I'm just not up to it. So for now, I'm going to continue howling in the wilderness. I would say my howling is first against anything and everything that keeps those of us from being the body Jesus is calling--He does not mean for us to divide over our gifts and callings. We all need to function in them as He wills and receive one another--and learn from one another, or God's army won't be ready for the battles to come. The unsaved can also be lost because of division in our ranks... .
Psa 107:15 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! This past Sunday God showed forth His goodness. A brother shared, that the retina in his eye had seperated. He went to the doctor and was told he would need an operation to repair the eye but he would have to go to Indianapolis to have this done, so the doctor set everything up. This was a couple of weeks past. After he was told this, He asked that hands be laid on him for healing......So be it Last week he went to Indy for the surgery as he couldn't get out of the appointment, when the doctors checked his eye prior to the operation... they were amazed.....The eye was totally and wonderfully healed. Praise Jesus ! An elderly sister told how she had fallen an injured the rotator cup in her shoulder. She was informed to contact the specialist in Columbus, Ohio.... she needed immediate surgery.... Well.....What is she going to do ? She couldn't move or raise her arm ! Nope...she didn't call Columbus ! She asked that hands be laid on for healing: because She was fully persuaded that God was able to perform what He Had Promised. Rom 4:21....Amen Last week durning Bible study as they were Praising & Singing to the Lord an without a thought, both her arms went straight up in praise to the Lord.... no pain..... no limitations......fully persuaded....Healed ! Another brother testified that after having hands laid on him for an ear problem the pain left immediately. But the next day he started having tremendous pain in the other ear...He committed that to the Lord also. The following day the pain started to leave & he thought he better have it looked at.... The doctor said .......I got bad news for you & I got good news for you ! The Bad news...........The ear drum had broken ! The Good News is ....That it was totally healed ! His hearing is better now in both ears, then it has ever been in his whole life. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Wonderful stories of God's faithfulness--what an encouragement! He's the same yesterday, today and forever. Thank you, brother...
Quote: I believe that William is quite successful at this time doing that, in that he has somehow been able to worm his way into the pulpit... Well, I wouldn't use the term "worm"... but I'm there at least once a week! <grin> I actually attend a rather large charismatic church where the pastor has recently resigned due to some (we think) sexual improprieties. I say "we think" only because the elders were outmaneuvered when they attempted to collaborate the charge and were unable to effectively discharge their biblical duties because they rushed in and signed (apparently) a nondisclosure agreement with the pastor in question. Duh! ... amazing what people do to be "in the know". Anyway, this left them in the ridiculous position of accepting a resignation without the ability to explain what transpired to the congregation. The biblical mandate to rebuke a sinning elder so others will fear, became impossible without the threat of legal action… which effectively meant that it was better for them to obey man rather than God. Not an enviable position, to say the least. Fortunately God is still in control. The stupid among us are in the process of resigning, presumably so that they will be in good standing with the predator once he completes his year sabbatical (complete with counseling) and embarks upon some new work. Yuck. Didn't mean to unburden myself so completely... I just wanted to say that the door that was opened to teach in the other church was not something I forced my way into... it is only once a week (Wednesday night) and so far I'm very encouraged about the receptivity of the people. Last week there were questions about tongues! Paradoxically the situation that happened in my own church would have been handled very differently in the other church... I'm pretty confident it would have been done biblically there! Blessings, William