Some of you are still in bondage because you are convinced that Hobart Freeman had scriptural support for his "unique" teaching. However, if you apply basic principles of interpretation to many of the passages he used, you find that he got those particular scriptures twisted. Toward the end of his life he did very little real expository teaching. I remember listening to one book series after another, expecting to learn more about those parts of scripture, only to feel empty when it was done because he railed on denominations, doctors and this and that with little exposition of the passage. Taking scriptures in context goes a long way. Never read just one verse, except in some Proverbs. Verse numbers are not a part of the original Bible, the way that the Lord spoke it out. They were added in the middle ages to help people find passages quicker and memorize them more easily. The chapters and verses can be helpful, but we should never read scripture as just a bunch of verses put together. Each passage is part of a unified whole. Let's look a 5 of them that have been misinterpreted. I. "The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit." Proverbs 18:21 The only context for a proverb is itself, and in this case the second part of the proverb explains the first. If you love to use your tongue, you will reap what you sow. If you say things to people that bring life to them or yourself, they or you will feel the effects of those life-giving words of encouragement. If you say things that destroy and bring death, they or you will feel the effects of those words. The passage does not say that you have power to magically make things happen by "speaking them into existence". Build people up instead of tearing them down, because people will benefit from that just like they benefit from eating the fruit of a tree. II. "Do not eat the food of a stingy man, do not crave his delicacies; for he is the kind of man who is always thinking about the cost ('as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he' is the old King James way of translating it). "Eat and drink", he says to you, but his heart is not with you. You will have vomited up the little you have eaten and will have wasted your compliments." (Proverbs 23:6-8) Many people in the broad spectrum of American Christianity have slaughtered this passage to say that it is talking about positive thinking. Hobart Freeman was one of them. However, when you look at the context of the "man thinks in his heart so is he" passage, you see that he is simply saying that a stingy person is not what he appears to be on the outside, but on the inside. He might say that he wants to offer you food, but what he thinks in his heart about the situation determines that he is not really generous, but stingy. It has nothing to do with psyching yourself out about healing or building your self-esteem. There is place for having good self-esteem in Christ, but this passage does not teach anything about "positive thinking". Take the passage in context. III. "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we are saved." (Romans 8:18-24a) What a wonderful passage! Conversely, what distortion was taught about it! Paul is not referring to some elite group of super spiritual "manifested sons". He is talking about all Christians, all those who are saved. All those who are children of God (vs. 21). I remember a woman who was extremely critical of her children and husband once said to me, "I just want to confess to you, Jae, that I am an overcomer (and one of the manifested sons)." My response-- stop trying to be super Christian and focus on being simply a Christian, a follower of Jesus. Following Him is tough enough without trying to add some elite believer status to it. IV. "But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come..." (I Corinthians 15:20-24) Awesome passage! Clearly from the context we can see that Christ himself is the firstfruits, not some elite group of Christians. It is nearly heresy to call the "firstfruits rapture" some pre-rapture event in which a group of super Christians goes to be with the Lord before the rest of them, because Christ is the firstfruits, and we could never take His place. Don't be thrown off by those who point out that there is no punctuation in koine Greek, and therefore therefore the verse should read like a list of the order of events. There is nothing that forces us to believe that it should read like that. On the other hand, the context forces us to believe that the firstfruits is Christ himself. No firstfruits rapture. Just the rapture of all believers. V. "...for by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith that God has given you. Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. --Romans 12:3-5 I can remember as a teenager commenting to someone that maybe certain persons were not given the faith to believe God for a certain healing. He quoted this passage to assert that "God has given to everyone a measure of faith", meaning that there was no exuse for this loser who wasn't healed (that was the attitude). However, this passage is talking about the fact that God gives us faith to function in various capacities in the church, and we all need each other. One part of the body is not more important than another. It has nothing to do with the meaning that HF and that guy attributed to it. More scriptures to discuss in the future.
You quote Proverbs 18:21 and then indict Hobart Freeman, saying that he taught the following: Quote: The passage does not say that you have power to magically make things happen by "speaking them into existence". I saw this stuff over on your blog and I quickly came to the conclusion that you didn't really understand the message taught at Faith Assembly. Brother Freeman never taught positive confession as a standalone doctrine. He carefully taught that the foundation for a positive confession was 2-fold. First our hearts had to be changed. This was to be accomplished in the believer's life by a study of the Word of God. The Word of God reveals our position in Christ, and our inheritance in Christ. These great and glorious promises become ours in a manner not unlike our initial faith in Jesus-- believe on the Lord, and then confession is made... unto salvation. Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Until we actually see or hear the promises, we cannot have faith in those promises. The second foundation for a positive confession is an embracing of those promises, by faith. A simple knowledge of God’s promises doesn’t save a person. Until the person embraces the promise and appropriates it by faith, he will never be saved. Once a person embraces a promise, like salvation, or healing, or deliverance, then, and only then, is it appropriate for confession to be made unto salvation (or healing, or deliverance.) Hence to imply that this "confession" somehow "magically causes these things to come into existence,” misses entirely the message that Hobart taught. First there has to be a changed heart! For some odd reason you put the confession part as point #1, and the heart part as #2, which has it exactly backwards. This may indicate something deeper, but for now I'll just assume that you are giving us these points in more or less random fashion. Quote: II. "Do not eat the food of a stingy man, do not crave his delicacies; for he is the kind of man who is always thinking about the cost ('as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he' is the old King James way of translating it). "Eat and drink", he says to you, but his heart is not with you. You will have vomited up the little you have eaten and will have wasted your compliments." (Proverbs 23:6-8) Many people in the broad spectrum of American Christianity have slaughtered this passage to say that it is talking about positive thinking. Hobart Freeman was one of them. However, when you look at the context of the "man thinks in his heart so is he" passage, you see that he is simply saying that a stingy person is not what he appears to be on the outside, but on the inside. He might say that he wants to offer you food, but what he thinks in his heart about the situation determines that he is not really generous, but stingy. It has nothing to do with psyching yourself out about healing or building your self-esteem. There is place for having good self-esteem in Christ, but this passage does not teach anything about "positive thinking". Take the passage in context. I confess that I really don't get your point here, unless you are somehow trying to separate what a person thinks from what is in his heart? What he thinks, is his heart and his heart is what he thinks. Rotten thoughts = rotten heart. Rotten heart = rotten thoughts. As he thinks, so he is. As he is, so he thinks. Brother Freeman taught that our thinker, (our hearts) could be changed by a diet that consisted of the Word of God. I don't see how this "slaughters" the text? Once the heart is changed, by the Word of God,(NOT BY THINKING!!!), the man literally becomes what he thinks. If he doesn't think he's saved, then he probably isn't. If he doesn't think he is healed, he probably isn't. If he doesn't think he is delivered, he probably isn't. You mentioned that you deal with mentally ill patients. How do you go about helping them? For example, let's assume that a homeless person finds his way to your office... he is suffering from depression. Now you may just prescribe some drugs and be done with it, I don't know, but if you actually try to talk to this person, what do you tell him? He feels worthless, no confidence, no prospects, nothing. Do you not try to change his thinking? (...as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.) Isn't that the first thing you try to do? Don't you try to explain to him that as a human being he has potential, and that since we are all created in the image of God, his view of himself is unfounded? Okay, now let’s say, he gets up to leave and he is still thinking of himself pretty much like he did when he first came into your office (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he), nothing has changed, his thinking and his confession are exactly the same as before he stumbled in... Wouldn’t you say that your efforts had been pretty much in vain? On the other hand, what if he jumps up and says- "You know what? You are right!" "God does love me!" "My grandmother always said I would be a preacher!" "Can you point me to a good local Church?" (as a man thinketh in his heart...). Now, what has happened? A superficial observer might say, "Why, his confession has changed!" Well, his confession did change but the reality of the situation can only be explained by seeing that his thinking changed, and his confession followed. He lined his thinking (his heart) up with what you were trying to tell him, which hopefully came from the Word of God. Brother, that is the only way that person could be helped. Supernatural? Maybe. Magical? No. That in a nutshell is what brother Freeman taught about positive thinking and confession... it begins with a change of heart and ends with the mouth agreeing with what God says about the situation. Either you misunderstood the message, or it was misrepresented to you. I'll try to get around to your third point later... Blessings, William
Jae, Like Mulder stated, I'm not sure I understand your first two points and what your argument is. I do, however, agree with your 3rd and 4th point. I have stated several times on this website and on the FactNet that I never understood how HEF could make a distinction between Christians and super-Christians (overcomers). I believe that Christians, by their very nature, are overcomers. If you are not an overcomer, then you are not a Christian. As for the "first-fruits" reference from Corinthians, I agree. The passage is speaking of the resurrection of Jesus. He was the first to be resurrected into a glorified body. (This distinguishes him from Lazarus or the others that were raised from the dead.) Just as he was resurrected into a glorified body, so to will we be raised into glorified bodies. He was the first fruits, we are next. Seems pretty simple to me. I also heard HEF preach on the 144,000 as being this group of "overcomers." I would have to disagree, because Revelation goes into great detail to describe this group as the nation of Israel. I could go on, because this has been one of my biggest "pet peeves" with the teaching of HEF. People began to take this concept of "overcomer" and use it as a source of pride. It was this pride that led people in the congregation to put enormous peer pressure on others to confirm to their idea of what an "overcomer" really was. None of us are worthy to even unlace the sandals of Jesus, so how anyone could take pride in being an "overcomer" is beyond me. All the references to "overcometh" in Revelation refer to salvation, not some extra-heaping-helping of heavenly goodies. Let me conclude by saying that I have NO problem with the term "overcomer." It is the name of this site, and if used in context, I am in full agreement. If we are saved, then we are overcomers. What I do have a problem with is people who use the term to elevate their own standing in the kingdom of heaven. It becomes a discussion like the disciples had with Jesus about which of them would be the "greatest in heaven." Jesus stated in Matthew 18 that if you "humbled yourself as a little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." God bless, Duncan
I think the NT clearly suggests that there will be differences in those who make it. There will be the least and the greatest. There will be a full reward which suggests that there will be lesser rewards. There will be rulers, so they will have to rule over others. Hundred, sixty, thirty suggests differences. Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: 2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Rev 2 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Matt 13 23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Moulder, I appreciate your optimistic attitude toward a man that you obviously respect. You are a clear thinker. I think that maybe you are naive or might have difficulty looking at his teaching completely objectively. His "official" teaching expressed in his books was not always reflected by his sermons every week, especially later in his ministry. A couple of thoughts in response: "Brother Freeman never taught positive confession as a standalone doctrine. He carefully taught that the foundation for a positive confession was 2-fold. First our hearts had to be changed. This was to be accomplished in the believer's life by a study of the Word of God. The Word of God reveals our position in Christ, and our inheritance in Christ. These great and glorious promises become ours in a manner not unlike our initial faith in Jesus-- believe on the Lord, and then confession is made... unto salvation." I wish that it was true that he was as balanced as you said. Some of his earlier teaching was probably more balanced. However, his approach to confession morphed and changed over time and became a magic word mentality. He would never have called it that, but that's what happened. He warned people not to "confess things on themselves" as if we were able to make things happen just because we said they would. "Life and death..." became a basis for superstition about your words. His positive confession book might have had some balance, but his every week teaching on faith and confession was full of that superstition. "Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Awesome passage. Note that the "message of faith" that Paul talked about had to do with heralding the Good News to the world that Jesus is Lord and is risen from the dead. The phrase "message of faith" did not refer to some end-time idea about claiming healing and prosperity. It was actually the early faith teachers such as Kenyon or Hagin who used that phrase to apply to their particular theology about faith, and Hobart got it from them. "Hence to imply that this "confession" somehow "magically causes these things to come into existence,” misses entirely the message that Hobart taught. First there has to be a changed heart!" Agreed. The heart has to change. No question about that. But that is not issue. My point was that "life and death are in the power of the tongue" was taught in such a way as to breed a superstition about our words. "I confess that I really don't get your point here, unless you are somehow trying to separate what a person thinks from what is in his heart? What he thinks, is his heart and his heart is what he thinks. Rotten thoughts = rotten heart. Rotten heart = rotten thoughts. As he thinks, so he is. As he is, so he thinks." Again, my point is simply that the verse does not mean what he said that it means. Passages such as Matthew 12:33-35 teach clearly the relationship between what we think in the heart and who we are. We don't need to try to twist the Proverbs passage in order to get people to think Biblically. The term "positive confession" is not found in scripture, as you know. A better term might be "Biblical thinking and confession." "Brother Freeman taught that our thinker, (our hearts) could be changed by a diet that consisted of the Word of God. I don't see how this "slaughters" the text?" Because he quoted it out of context. That passage does not mean what he said it did. We are obligated to rightly divide the Word of truth. "Once the heart is changed, by the Word of God,(NOT BY THINKING!!!), the man literally becomes what he thinks. If he doesn't think he's saved, then he probably isn't. If he doesn't think he is healed, he probably isn't. If he doesn't think he is delivered, he probably isn't." Sometimes people go through times of doubt in which they question their salvation. That does not mean they are not saved. You are not always what you think. You are what God says you are regardless of how well you perceive it. "You mentioned that you deal with mentally ill patients. How do you go about helping them? For example, let's assume that a homeless person finds his way to your office... he is suffering from depression. Now you may just prescribe some drugs and be done with it (FYI, I don't prescribe the medications; that's a psychiatrist's job; I do a lot of listening, counseling and problem-solving) I don't know, but if you actually try to talk to this person, what do you tell him? He feels worthless, no confidence, no prospects, nothing. Do you not try to change his thinking? (...as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.) Isn't that the first thing you try to do? It's not the first thing I do, usually. Most of the time they are hurting and in despair and wonder if they are ever going to be normal. I give them a shoulder to cry on before offering my own input. Then, yes, sometimes I can help them change their thinking by offering them hope. Faith starts with hope, and they can't exercise faith without it. Don't you try to explain to him that as a human being he has potential, and that since we are all created in the image of God, his view of himself is unfounded? Yes, I point people back to the image of God frequently. "Okay, now let’s say, he gets up to leave and he is still thinking of himself pretty much like he did when he first came into your office (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he), nothing has changed, his thinking and his confession are exactly the same as before he stumbled in... Wouldn’t you say that your efforts had been pretty much in vain? It depends. It takes a while for a person like that to get into a position to understand or believe much of anything. You have to be patient. On the other hand, what if he jumps up and says- "You know what? You are right!" "God does love me!" "My grandmother always said I would be a preacher!" "Can you point me to a good local Church?" (as a man thinketh in his heart...). Now, what has happened? A superficial observer might say, "Why, his confession has changed!" Well, his confession did change but the reality of the situation can only be explained by seeing that his thinking changed, and his confession followed. He lined his thinking (his heart) up with what you were trying to tell him, which hopefully came from the Word of God." Changing thinking helps, yes, but that is not what the passage is saying. Brother, that is the only way that person could be helped. Supernatural? Maybe. Magical? No. Certainly not magical, but when HF tells us that confession brings possession, he is essentially making it into magic words. When someone says, "I don't have a cold" and snot is running out of his nose, he is in denial. Scripture never tells us to be in denial of reality. However, right in the faith book HF stated that he does not take insulin because he does not have diabetes, and therefore implied that a person with diabetes who prayed for healing suddenly does not have diabetes and does not need to take insulin. Ironically, HF apparently died of complications from diabetes (correct me if I'm wrong here). It's too bad. It did not have to happen. That in a nutshell is what brother Freeman taught about positive thinking and confession... it begins with a change of heart and ends with the mouth agreeing with what God says about the situation. I wish that was really the nutshell, but it became much more complicated than that. Add to that the fact that we do not know exactly what God says about every situation involving healing or prosperity. Even Wigglesworth did not pray for everyone. He knew that sometimes the Lord was not going to heal certain people. Either you misunderstood the message, or it was misrepresented to you. Moulder, you might be right. Maybe I misunderstood it. But I doubt it. I know what I heard and read. If I still had my tapes from those days I would research it and identify some quotes for you. However, we all heard plenty of confession talk ("I confess such and such") that was based on the confession brings possession teaching. Certainly you were aware of that mentality in our midst, and HF's teaching on confession (which he admitted he first heard from Hagin) fostered that mentality.
Dr. Freeman was often quite stern in his teachings because if he wasn't he'd just end up like nearly all other churches, not believing much of anything other than salvation. He was a guardian of God's Word, and he did it well! He died like he preached, trusting God. I've not known any other teacher like him.
I do agree with jisamazed about how confession eventually became like a magical chant that people used. I know I was once a part of that scene too. I don't believe there is a place for us to go around saying I have this, or I have that. I always look to Jesus as an example in the New Testament about confession. I don't hear Him confessing in the same manner. I beileve it's what's within your heart that counts. It's those things God is interested in. God doesn't listen to chants or vain repitions and that includes "confession repitious talk". Teachers in His Church should be well equipped to give us His mind and the balance about all matters. However, we take our eyes of Jesus. Let us keep our eyes, hearts and minds on Jesus and learn to listen to His voice each day. What does God want to say to me today. I can hear Him.........He is gentle, full of goodness and love and always keen for us to learn more of Him. We are not in the time of Jacob's trouble yet so God's grace still abounds!
It's not magic, it's God's Word. Mk 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Yes Jesus did say that. But what I'm saying is a method, a chanting scenario not a word of faith. Not vain repetions!
DeWayne wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 02:15 not believing much of anything other than salvation. He was a guardian of God's Word, and he did it well! He died like he preached, trusting God. I've not known any other teacher like him. We shouldn't think so lightly about the salvation message because if we don't have it then we are lost! Deosn't matter how long you have walked with the Lord or what truths you hold about faith for healing, or faith to prophecy, or faith to speek in tongues etc. If you don't have salvation then your lost!. It's important. I believe our salvation is our first love. In Revelation 2:4 the church is rebuked because they left their first love. If they didn't repent then that church was going to be removed. As I feel took place with FA. I remember when I was first saved I couldn't get enough of Jesus and His Word. My life was simple and it was about salvation. It was about trusting Him, it was about looking to Him to lead me and looking to Him to guide me. But then I took my eyes of Him (didn't realise it at the time) and got entagled with legalism and looked to a man and his teachings. I thought I must behave a certain way and it must be the way Dr Freeman taught (especially as it related to faith for healing) but there were other things I thought I must do such as, not borrow money, not wear jeans etc etc. We have to be careful that our experience of a so called "deeper teaching" doesn't rob us of our 1st Love, Jesus. Isn't that what salvation is all about. I have been challenged by my God to think back to my first love and how it was. What did I do? How did I feel? I know what it was like for me.
believer 1 wrote on Fri, 28 March 2008 20:57 We shouldn't think so lightly about the salvation message because if we don't have it then we are lost! Deosn't matter how long you have walked with the Lord or what truths you hold about faith for healing, or faith to prophecy, or faith to speek in tongues etc. If you don't have salvation then your lost!. It's important. I believe our salvation is our first love. In Revelation 2:4 the church is rebuked because they left their first love. If they didn't repent then that church was going to be removed. As I feel took place with FA. I remember when I was first saved I couldn't get enough of Jesus and His Word. My life was simple and it was about salvation. It was about trusting Him, it was about looking to Him to lead me and looking to Him to guide me. But then I took my eyes of Him (didn't realise it at the time) and got entagled with legalism and looked to a man and his teachings. I thought I must behave a certain way and it must be the way Dr Freeman taught (especially as it related to faith for healing) but there were other things I thought I must do such as, not borrow money, not wear jeans etc etc. We have to be careful that our experience of a so called "deeper teaching" doesn't rob us of our 1st Love, Jesus. Isn't that what salvation is all about. I have been challenged by my God to think back to my first love and how it was. What did I do? How did I feel? I know what it was like for me. Who's taking the salvation message lightly? Certainly not I. It sounds like you don't know that healing is promised in the Bible to Christians by the same God who promised salvation to those turn to Jesus.
DeWayne said, "It's not magic, it's God's Word. Mk 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith." DeWayne, there is a difference between telling a mountain to move and stating that you don't have diabetes when in fact you do. If my daughter has sudden severe headache right before being baptized and does not feel like she can go to the lake to get baptized, I will tell the headache (and whatever is causing it) to be removed per what Jesus told us in the passage you quoted. That is different than saying, "My daughter does not have a headache" to my neighbor, thinking that she will somehow not be healed unless I deny that it exists. That mentality was not Jesus' intent. However, that mentality was the fruit of Hobart Freeman's overemphasis on this passage to the neglect of others.
DeWayne said, "Who's taking the salvation message lightly? Certainly not I. It sounds like you don't know that healing is promised in the Bible to Christians by the same God who promised salvation to those turn to Jesus." God has promised salvation and healing, and the terms are sometimes used together in scripture. However, the salvation of men's souls by reconciling to God through the work of Christ is emphasized much more throughout scripture. It is a major theme in the entire message of scripture. Healing of the body is not unimportant, but it is not nearly as important as being reconciled to God. I want to shout it to all pastors and teachers and churches and ministries! WE ARE CALLED TO EMPHASIZE WHAT THE BIBLE EMPHASIZES. WE DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM TO MAKE UP OUR OWN EMPHASIS AND DOWNPLAY WHAT GOD HAS TAUGHT US IS IMPORTANT! It does not matter if the builders are building houses without windows. We have to bring them back to the foundations the way the Lord does in scripture. HEF became ensnared by his emphasis on faith for healing and neglected the weightier matters, hence the unnecessary bondage that developed.
I think the NT clearly suggests that there will be differences in those who make it. There will be the least and the greatest. There will be a full reward which suggests that there will be lesser rewards. There will be rulers, so they will have to rule over others. Hundred, sixty, thirty suggests differences. Ah, yes, I remember that teaching. Some will bear more fruit than others. There will be some rewards on judgment day. All of that is true. However, none of these passages teaches that there is some elite higher status of Christians who will do a bunch of miracles and then be raptured before the other believers because they are higher ranking than them. When we stand before the Lord, we will tell him that we are unworthy servants who just did our duty. All true believers are completely cleansed and reconciled to God and fully His children. He does not love some children any more than another any more than we love some of our children more than another. We had better not.
jisamazed wrote on Sat, 29 March 2008 20:59 Healing of the body is not unimportant, but it is not nearly as important as being reconciled to God. Who said it is? Quote: I want to shout it to all pastors and teachers and churches and ministries! WE ARE CALLED TO EMPHASIZE WHAT THE BIBLE EMPHASIZES. WE DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM TO MAKE UP OUR OWN EMPHASIS AND DOWNPLAY WHAT GOD HAS TAUGHT US IS IMPORTANT! It does not matter if the builders are building houses without windows. We have to bring them back to the foundations the way the Lord does in scripture. HEF became ensnared by his emphasis on faith for healing and neglected the weightier matters, hence the unnecessary bondage that developed. Do you think Jesus was "ensnared" too? He did a LOT of healing. Doesn't sound like you really believe God's healing promises are true. Was Jesus in "bondage" because he went about healing those who were oppressed by the Devil? There's a lot of healing in the New Testament, and lots of healing promises. Are they not important?
DeWayne said, "Do you think Jesus was "ensnared" too? He did a LOT of healing. Doesn't sound like you really believe God's healing promises are true. Was Jesus in "bondage" because he went about healing those who were oppressed by the Devil? There's a lot of healing in the New Testament, and lots of healing promises. Are they not important?" Jesus healed many people, and He has commissioned the church to continue His work by the power of the Holy Spirit. But it still does not compare to the primary emphasis of scripture- redemption and reconciliation with God, advancing His kingdom, etc... HEF emphasized healing too much, certainly much more than scripture emphasized it. Healing will last while we live here on earth (sometimes), but the salvation of our souls and glorified bodies will last for eternity. One reason why Jesus told people to keep quiet after he healed them was because he wanted people to focus on His message of the kingdom, that He is God and the Lord was going to use Him to provide redemption from sin instead of trying to keep the law in order to do so. There were plenty of street healers in the Roman empire at the time. Jesus did not want people to confuse Him as another street healer. He wanted them to see that much more important matters were at stake than healing. You would never guess this from HEF's later ministry, especially the last 5 years or so, in which he emphasized healing far more than he should have.
jisamazed wrote on Sat, 29 March 2008 22:08 DeWayne said, "Do you think Jesus was "ensnared" too? He did a LOT of healing. Doesn't sound like you really believe God's healing promises are true. Was Jesus in "bondage" because he went about healing those who were oppressed by the Devil? There's a lot of healing in the New Testament, and lots of healing promises. Are they not important?" Jesus healed many people, and He has commissioned the church to continue His work by the power of the Holy Spirit. But it still does not compare to the primary emphasis of scripture- redemption and reconciliation with God, advancing His kingdom, etc... HEF emphasized healing too much, certainly much more than scripture emphasized it. Healing will last while we live here on earth (sometimes), but the salvation of our souls and glorified bodies will last for eternity. One reason why Jesus told people to keep quiet after he healed them was because he wanted people to focus on His message of the kingdom, that He is God and the Lord was going to use Him to provide redemption from sin instead of trying to keep the law in order to do so. There were plenty of street healers in the Roman empire at the time. Jesus did not want people to confuse Him as another street healer. He wanted them to see that much more important matters were at stake than healing. You would never guess this from HEF's later ministry, especially the last 5 years or so, in which he emphasized healing far more than he should have. Do you believe God promised healing to Christians?
It's sad to see people who sat in FA for years who still don't understand we are justified by faith in the impossible. And that includes God's promises!!! Is God a liar? I'm sure some here would call Abraham a lunatic for offering Isaac as a sacrifice. We have MUCH more of God's written Word. And yet so many are afraid to trust God unto the death in regards to healing. Are God's promises true or not? Yes Dr. Freeman died believing God's healing promises are true, but he's much more alive than some here. He believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
DeWayne said, "Do you believe God promised healing to Christians?" Of course I do. I live accordingly. I do not try to tell God how to heal me. I only ask Him to do so and believe that he will. I also pray for others who are sick. God promised healing to his people. He did not emphasize it in scripture like HEF did, but he did promise it. HEF emphasized the prayer and faith and healing to an extreme later in his ministry, and thus neglected other parts of scripture. Thankfully, he was more balanced than a lot of other faith teachers regarding trials. He did not disregard the hardships of life and acknowledged that God uses trials of our faith to make us more like Jesus. Somewhere in his ministry he developed this doctors=occult mentality and taught "deeper deliverance and discernment" and told people to take themselves through deliverance if they ever walked into a doctor's office. Thus he added to scripture and put people into bondage. He was never able to admit that sometimes the Lord does not heal people when they ask in faith. It would have put a monkey wrench in his theology if he did, so he never went there.
Jisamazed wrote: (I do not try to tell God how to heal me) I agree with that 100 % I let God tell me thru his Word, how to heal me ! Ps 91:14-16 God said: 6 times (I Will)do something. If you dwell in the secret place of the most High Ps 103:1-5 ---heals All my diseases ! Ps 107:15-20 sent His Word(not the doctor)to heal Me. Ex 15:26 -I AM the Lord That Heals thee ! Ex 23:25-I will take sickness away from the midst of thee! Mk 11:22-25 Have Faith in God ! Jas 5:13-16 call for the elders(not the doctors)! I am so happy that God has shown what His will is for me. Isa 53: Who has believed our report ? What report ? Atonement for the whole person....Body ...Soul & Spirit.. Regeneration of the Whole Person.....
This is a good dialogue here. I totally agree with you jisamazed. (I do not try to tell God how to heal me). It seems like this dialogue has come up in a number of locations on this site. HEALING We have James 5 to stand on – call on the elders - if there be any SICK. So how do we define sickness. We also live under the affects of the Fall. Is there promises that apply? Yes, Doctors were very mystical up until recent times where it has become more of a science. When it comes to sickness today in many ways they still are and will tell you that in not so many words. Apart from that it is a science they are practicing and have much more knowledge about the body than I do. Would I recommend an individual to seek out medical help. No. Would I attempt to prevent them from going to Doctors by promoting a spirit of FEAR. NO. We know the origins of this – Don’t WE???? Luke was a physician, yet I do not see in scripture where God speaks against medical science and Doctors. Against Mystics, soothsayers ect, but not against medical science. I would hate to attempt to count the number of messages I heard against the medical profession. Also how much of our lives today are the direct result of medical science and their understanding? Hygiene, diet, ect, or should we fashion our lives as the Amish and reject all things that are modern? I believe this was mentioned earlier. Diabetes, is this a sickness that would fall under James 5? Or is this a result of the fall with the issue of various organs of the body failing due to the fall? I think that much of the negatism that has been promoted, against medical science, was done to dethrone them as deity figures as they are held in the hearts of many. This is very understandable but there should be a limit to it and the need can’t be stressed enough to allow the Holy Sprit to do His ministry. By the promotion of fear I think we all can relate to the results. Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; 2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
JRS wrote Luke was a physician, yet I do not see in scripture where God speaks against medical science and Doctors. Against Mystics, soothsayers ect, but not against medical science. I would hate to attempt to count the number of messages I heard against the medical profession. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Brother, the only thing I oppose, is when anyone says that God uses Medical Science as a substitute for The Blood that Jesus shed on the Cross for my Healing & Salvation . Like the woman with the issue of blood, I suffered many things at the hands of Medical Science. For 20 some years, I suffered with Cluster Headaches for 2 hours every day of my life. My whole world would shut down until they were over.The pain was so intense, that banging my head on the concrete floor felt pretty good. I went thru test after test after test...no help ! I took so many experimental drugs at the time, its a wonder that I have I mind left. But nothing helped ! Matter of fact, many times the pain got worse. Then I came into the knowledge of Jesus Christ as my Lord, A short time after Salvation I came into the knowledge of Jesus Christ as my Healer......That was before I even heard of The Glory Barn or Faith Assembly.....I found it in the Word of God. Do I have to tell ya the rest of the Story ? Yes....Totally Healed...Praise Jesus ! If Medical Science is Gods gift to us........Why does it cost so much ? I thought the Gift was Free ?! Freely you have received, Freely give ! I don't suppose any of you out there charge a fee, when you lay hands on the sick, do you ? Ref Luke the physician: The primary job of the physician in the Old & New Testaments, was to bind up wounds an prepare the Body for Burial...... I think I'll stick with Jesus as My Physician.....He came to prepare me for Life, not for Burial.
DeWayne wrote, "Dr. Freeman was often quite stern in his teachings because if he wasn't he'd just end up like nearly all other churches, not believing much of anything other than salvation. I've not known any other teacher like him." That sounds like classic Freeman talk, DeWayne! Nearly all other churches are not believing anything other than salvation? Isolation breeds ignorance. You really need to get out more and get more exposure to what God is doing in His church around the world. There are many saints who put all of us to shame with their faith and dedication. For them, it is not about claiming healing or things. It is about how to witness to their jailmates effectively because the secret police threw them in there for preaching the gospel. "He was a guardian of God's Word, and he did it well!" I would say he taught some of the word well. He was an excellent theology teacher, and some of his surveys were helpful. However, he neglected entire swaths of scripture, such as those that command us to take care of the poor. "He died like he preached, trusting God." Maybe. We don't know what was in his heart, do we? We are not omniscient. He himself said that no one dies in faith, and he seemed to judge others who died after they prayed for healing. Jesus said that we will be judged in the same way that we judge others. I don't know if that is what happened to Hobart or not, but it is a little presumptuous to automatically assume that he really had faith just because he preached on it. "I've not known any other teacher like him." There are plenty of excellent Bible teachers and pastors out there who are better teachers and more balanced than HEF. Many of them are pastors of small or medium churches who have no notariety, but can expound the Word with clarity and anointing.
JWBTI wrote on Tue, 01 April 2008 19:34 JRS wrote Luke was a physician, yet I do not see in scripture where God speaks against medical science and Doctors. Against Mystics, soothsayers ect, but not against medical science. I would hate to attempt to count the number of messages I heard against the medical profession. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Brother, the only thing I oppose, is when anyone says that God uses Medical Science as a substitute for The Blood that Jesus shed on the Cross for my Healing & Salvation . Ref Luke the physician: The primary job of the physician in the Old & New Testaments, was to bind up wounds an prepare the Body for Burial...... I think I'll stick with Jesus as My Physician.....He came to prepare me for Life, not for Burial. I would oppose that also. There is NO substitution for the precious Blood of Jesus. For Salvation or Healing. In James 5 we have a direct promise of healing for sickness. I ask this then, would a broken bone or large cut fall under this promise. I do not see these as sickness’s and fall under our own responsibility of how to handle them. Not to say God couldn’t heal and restore miraculously. This is where we need guidance promised to us by the Holy Spirit. I disagree with the fear that has been generated about going to a Doctor. We extrapolate that Medical Science is evil because the promise of healing for our sickness’s. Scripture does speak against witchcraft and sorcery ect which was the center of medical understanding not too long ago. Too say that Science falls into these categories shows a lack of understanding for what science actually is.
JRS WROTE: I ask this then, would a broken bone or large cut fall under this promise. I do not see these as sickness’s and fall under our own responsibility of how to handle them. Not to say God couldn’t heal and restore miraculously. This is where we need guidance promised to us by the Holy Spirit. ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------- I would say yes to our own responsibility : Be it unto thee according to your faith...... I have seen by my own hands, the power of God heal broken bones instantly with 2 of my children. I have had my own hand broken an God restored it whole in 5 days. I had two other children end up in the hospital with broken bones & plaster on there legs...Be it, my lack of faith an or lack of proper fellowship in the Lord....(I speak only for myself at this point.) I've also seen large cuts & blood pouring out of the body, healed by the laying on of hands an Faith in Gods Word. The Holy Spirit will show us what to do, when are minds are centered on Jesus Christ an His Words. ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------- JRS WROTE: I disagree with the fear that has been generated about going to a Doctor. We extrapolate that Medical Science is evil because the promise of healing for our sickness’s. Scripture does speak against witchcraft and sorcery ect which was the center of medical understanding not too long ago. Too say that Science falls into these categories shows a lack of understanding for what science actually is. Ref Medical Science: They do the best they can an thats Good ! My desire is to Trust God an Him alone....By His Grace & Mercy. I fault No one, for seeking thier help.......I just encourage all of us to Trust God in all that we do !
Yes - I have had the privilege of experiencing many examples of God’s healing power also. Broken hand, broken foot, piece of brass in my eye that led into an infection by the next day, and was miraculously healed on the forth day, are a few. This consequently opened up a chance to witness to a few co-workers, because of my recovery was so quick. In each one of these examples I find no direct promise in scripture for healing. JWBTI WROTE; I had two other children end up in the hospital with broken bones & plaster on there legs...Be it, my lack of faith an or lack of proper fellowship in the Lord....(I speak only for myself at this point.) You say, - Be it, my lack of faith an or lack of proper fellowship in the Lord” – My question is - Why does it have to fall into either one of these categories? How quick we are to set blame (judge) on what we would observe as failure. Are we not of the same mind-set of the disciples in questioning Jesus about the man born blind??? John 9 – Either towards ourselves or others? We take scriptures – be unto thee according to your faith. Thy faith has made you whole. And evaluate the results of others and ourselves. Are we using our preconceived notions of what things should be like, to evaluate our lives? Where does the sovereignty of God come in? I can relate examples of broken bones. ---Healing manifested instantly after prayer. ---Prayed and the one with the broken leg remained immobilized for almost 6 weeks. They later related it was a much needed time for prayer and rest. ---And another sought medical attention and had a cast applied. To seek help from the Doctor, is it sin??? I would have to answer that NO and then at the same time I would say Yes, it could be. We do need to seek guidance from the Holy Spirit in all things. This I believe to be the number 1 fault of Asa in II Chronicles 16. As it says – he sought not the Lord----- Yes, I agree with the translating of “magic healers” as jisamazed pointed out in another post. Jim
jisamazed wrote on Sat, 29 March 2008 20:59 DeWayne said, I want to shout it to all pastors and teachers and churches and ministries! WE ARE CALLED TO EMPHASIZE WHAT THE BIBLE EMPHASIZES. WE DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM TO MAKE UP OUR OWN EMPHASIS AND DOWNPLAY WHAT GOD HAS TAUGHT US IS IMPORTANT! It does not matter if the builders are building houses without windows. We have to bring them back to the foundations the way the Lord does in scripture. HEF became ensnared by his emphasis on faith for healing and neglected the weightier matters, hence the unnecessary bondage that developed. [/color] I agree that we need the windows but what's the point of windows if there is no foundations, no walls, no roof and all we have is a group of windows lying on the ground! We don't have a house. In fact we are like the man in that paraable who built his house on the sand. It all came tumbling down. Lots of, lots of windows doesn't make up a house. Yes it can build a shelter for a while but eventaully it will come tumbling down. I'm afraid that's what focus on faith for healing produces.
JRS WROTE: You say,- Be it, my lack of faith an or lack of proper fellowship in the Lord” –(I speak only for myself at this point.) My question is - Why does it have to fall into either one of these categories? How quick we are to set blame (judge) on what we would observe as failure. Are we not of the same mind-set of the disciples in questioning Jesus about the man born blind??? John 9 – Either towards ourselves or others? We take scriptures – be unto thee according to your faith. Thy faith has made you whole. And evaluate the results of others and ourselves. Are we using our preconceived notions of what things should be like, to evaluate our lives? Bro Jim: I 'am I wrong for using this as a guide line for myself, when I feel that I've missed it ? Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. Where is Gods sovereignty in this ? The disciples missed it. Jesus rebuked them, then gave them instruction.
Bro. Ron, In No way do I mean to put others down. I know the mind-set I had and still wrestle with at times. If things did not happen as one would envision, there was a problem on our end. Whether sin, lack of faith, or both. I don’t think I need to elaborate any more as to that, I’m sure we all have had some experience with it. This brings a number of results with it – that is to rob a believer of their Joy & Peace and the bondage it fosters. My point is that, most of the understanding we had about our expectations was not scriptural at all. We looked to Scripture and our Lord Jesus for 100% of our healing and care (one could say) of this body. Healing is a promise in scripture – for sickness. Apart from that we have NO direct promises to base our Faith on. Consequently we begin to feel forsaken and our energy is turned on ourselves and others seeking the answers.
JWBTI said, "Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. Where is Gods sovereignty in this ? The disciples missed it. Jesus rebuked them, then gave them instruction." Notice that Jesus did not rebuke the man or his son for their unbelief. He did not blame the person who had the need. He rebuked the disciples for not believing that He could do it. They still were not sure who he was yet at this point. Often this passage was used as a basis for saying, "If the person does not get healed, it is because of their unbelief." Terrible bondage and beat-down for people who were suffering. However, that was not what Jesus was doing. He did not tell us that there must be some problem with us if we are not healed. He only rebuked the disciples who did not take authority over the evil spirit. Don't add to scripture. I don't know how many people I knew who agonized over their sickness or that of their children, wondering what sin they had in their life or what spirit they needed to cast out. No wonder so many people were depressed. The fact is, some people are sick and are not healed, and it is not because of unbelief or sin in their lives. Sometimes it is, but not always. The "there must be something wrong with me" mentality only produces frustration, depression and a works mindset. When the Lord heals us, praise Him. If not, praise Him for His goodness anyway. Don't beat yourself or anyone else down if it doesn't happen. Otherwise you become like Job's friends, and the Lord was not happy with the way they judged Job.
Bro Jae: Please do not twist my words An add to what I DID NOT SAY ! As a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, I have the right to judge myself according to this passage. IF I believe in my heart that I missed it, I am willing to take responsiblity for my own actions an say: I was wrong, rather than blame God. Bro you said this: As if to imply; This is what I really meant by what I was saying. Often this passage was used as a basis for saying, "If the person does not get healed, it is because of their unbelief." Terrible bondage and beat-down for people who were suffering. Don't beat yourself or anyone else down if it doesn't happen. Otherwise you become like Job's friends, and the Lord was not happy with the way they judged Job. I didn't use the passage for that purpose, nor did I imply that in any way. Neither do I beat myself down or judge anyone else at this point.
My apologies regarding your comment below. I did not intend to state that you were beating people down or were a Job's friend, but simply that if we take your statement about the passage to it's logical conclusion, then we end up giving the beat-down, whether inadvertantly or on purpose. We all know that it happened on many occasions in the past. I remember after Carl Seitz died, a teacher came up to our church and stated, "He seemed to be really spiritual, but those of us who knew him knew that he did not have the faith when the chips were down." He was trying to justify his idea that if someone does not get healed, there is something wrong on their part. He painted himself into a corner and ended up speaking wrongly about Carl. Your post seemed to imply the same idea, but I give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. Love believes all things. Bro Jae: Please do not twist my words An add to what I DID NOT SAY ! As a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, I have the right to judge myself according to this passage. IF I believe in my heart that I missed it, I am willing to take responsiblity for my own actions an say: I was wrong, rather than blame God. Bro you said this: As if to imply; This is what I really meant by what I was saying. Often this passage was used as a basis for saying, "If the person does not get healed, it is because of their unbelief." Terrible bondage and beat-down for people who were suffering. Don't beat yourself or anyone else down if it doesn't happen. Otherwise you become like Job's friends, and the Lord was not happy with the way they judged Job. I didn't use the passage for that purpose, nor did I imply that in any way. Neither do I beat myself down or judge anyone else at this point.
Thank you, Brother Jae Apologies received. Blessings in Jesus Names !
PLEASE, someone tell me where God told us that he heals through doctors. On the contrary... Have any of you read of the woman with the issue of blood? Guess not. How about King Asa? Guess not. If you read my report on medical mistakes you would have to assume that God judges and chastens by doctors. Did any of you read it?
After reading some of the comments here it appears that the doctors are your god. You believe their word rather than God's. If you want to go to the doctor rather than trust in the living God then go ahead, but to say you're trusting the God of the Bible is being dishonest with yourselves. The God of the Bible didn't heal through doctors.
JRS wrote on Mon, 31 March 2008 07:22 Luke was a physician, yet I do not see in scripture where God speaks against medical science and Doctors. So what kind of physician was Luke? Do you mean Dr.? Like Dr. Freeman? Show us where Luke healed anyone, please. Quote: I think that much of the negatism that has been promoted, against medical science, was done to dethrone them as deity figures as they are held in the hearts of many. This is very understandable but there should be a limit to it and the need can’t be stressed enough to allow the Holy Sprit to do His ministry. By the promotion of fear I think we all can relate to the results. Did you read my post from JAMA? Over 1/4 million people die annually from medical mistakes. This info comes from doctors themselves. Do you believe and trust doctors?
DeWayne wrote on Sat, 05 April 2008 23:17 PLEASE, someone tell me where God told us that he heals through doctors. On the contrary... Have any of you read of the woman with the issue of blood? Guess not. How about King Asa? Guess not. You are correct – There is no place in scripture where it states that God Heals though Doctors. Yes I read your report and fully agree with where you are coming from. The issue actually should be for one to understand Doctors and all their training are no more than humans and mistakes are made. The problem is much deeper than promoting a FEAR of Drs. The real issue is in the heart of each individual. That is – How do they look on Drs.? – “Thou shall have no other god’s before me”. King Asa ring a bell here?? Do I promote ones going to Drs. – NO and your statistics are good in revealing all the problems an organization has with man at the center. At the same time I don’t see a need for believers to center on the same tactics the world promotes to come against something. FEAR. I have a problem, with one promoting the concept that God establishes FEAR in a believers heart. That is what has happened in more cases than not. Is not this the same as what the world uses and is using in the putting down of Faith Assembly. In particular the promotion of all the baby deaths. Our Lord Jesus is much greater than that. You ask for a scripture as to where God heals through Drs. I ask where does God give scriptures against them. – Here is where we need to define things. God does give results and warns against sorcery, magicians, and other things of the occult. No question about this. Is this not the same condition and areas the Doctors are in when attempting to treat sickness’s today, though they wouldn’t say it in so many words. This is the area we have direct promise we can stand on in scripture. James 5:14 Praise God Where as other areas of physical problems, ailments are results of the fall and we have no direct promise of healing in scripture. To say God will not heal in these examples would be wrong. To say we can believe God for healing here is wrong also. DeWayne wrote on Sat, 05 April 2008 23:17 If you read my report on medical mistakes you would have to assume that God judges and chastens by doctors. Did any of you read it? Here in is a result of focusing on “medical mistakes”. For one to begin to assume things is a giant step on a slippery slope. If God is judging and/or chastening individuals though the Doctors, as you are assuming here. Then one should repent and God being a loving and Faithful God will lift the chastisement. For if it is not lifted then one would assume that God receives pleasure from the suffering of his servants. This I think NOT. The Healing message as many have heard it is no more than assumption. FACT – On the cross Jesus bore all our sickness’s. No problem there at all. The problem enters by us ASSUMING that ALL physical ailments are covered here. This is adding to what the scripture is saying. Can God heal all aspects of this body – YES – But we do not have a promise that he will. Instead we have a responsibility to maintain this body, temple. We talk of Healing and Prosperity in the Atonement. YES, FACT. We are Healed – covers sickness. The curse of the Fall and all that accompanies it is NOT. As with prosperity as in the atonement one is commanded to work and the curse is still in place that was applied to Adam. There are many who WASTE a lot of time and effort in examining themselves because they might not be in what they (preconceived notion) would consider walking in “perfect health”. Yet perfect health should never apply. There have been many the are believing God for physical things that actually they have NO promise to stand on and consequently they are being robbed of there joy. If any individual is examined close and long enough, FAULT will be found. I ask this – Where does it say that this should be our focus??? The Word states, so long as we are in this vessel there is no possibility for perfection. Yes we are to strive and at the same time God knows the very hairs of our head and watches over us. We must come into the rest that God is with us and will guide us and allow the Holy Spirit to fulfill his ministry. JRS
My intent is not to cause fear, but to know what God has said to us. Asa sought the physicians, and he died. Take note. God gives us many instances of healing in the Bible, but not by doctors. You would think there would be at least one. The woman with the issue of blood suffered many things from many physicians, and was in poverty because they took all her money. Sound familiar? The healing message is assumption? Again you seem to forget what God has told us. Why would that be? Are you accusing God of lying to us? Sounds like it. There are many healing promises to Christians. Sure you can find excuses not to trust God for healing. There are plenty of people who will agree with you. Do you feel the same about promises of salvation? If God doesn't ALWAYS keep His healing promises what makes you think He will ALWAYS keep His promise of salvation to those who turn to Jesus? Can God be believed or not? That is the question for you. Yes, some have died trusting God for healing. But to question God's CLEAR promises of healing is a terrible mistake! It is the responsibility of Christians to seek God and He will show us where we have erred. Don't charge God with lying. How can some of God's promises be true and some be lies? Sounds like that's what you're saying. I'm still waiting for someone to show me where God sent anyone to a doctor for healing in the Bible.
The Ceylon Pentecostal Mission (now called The Pentecostal Mission) teaches healing along the same lines as HEF did. Their group started I believe in the 1920's. They have hundreds of Churches Worldwide. They have had like experiences to Faith Assembly. Many have testified to being healed by Christ. There have been a number of deaths over the decades. There have always been Churches that have taught healing and practiced their belief. Certainly they are in the minority but it is a mistake if anyone thinks Bro. Freeman was the first to present the message that Jesus heals.
Then what is your intent for focusing so much on the statistics of medical failures besides promoting of FEAR. Statistics are what they are, a compiling of information and no more. It’s the emphasis applied to them is the problem. The deaths related to FA are emphasized, and they fail to be fair on presentation of the facts. These statistics both for FA and the Doctors fail to balance out the number of successes in both instances. Accusing GOD of Lying. Your reaching now. In NO way am I saying the Healing Message is an assumption. READ CLOSELY PLEASE:---- God has healed us form ALL sickness’s – and promises that in James 5. IT is MAN”S assumption that GOD has promised us healing for ALL ailments of the body. It is MAN that is presenting a Lie and Not GOD. It is Man that says we can use our FAITH and claim what we want from GOD. How self centered and humanistic can we get. GIMMY, GIMMY, GIMMY, ----- We use verses like MK 11:24 and others and the focus is applied to the natural realm (financial, healing, etc.). How can we be so foolish and be asking for things Jesus has told us- commanded us – to take NO THOUGHT FOR. By desiring and asking I would say that is taking thought. If we are seeking things in the natural – How can we say we have died to self??? God does command us what our desire should be. I Cor 14:1. Can you show me 1 example or instance of the disciples praying for their physical needs??? God’s Word is forever settled in heaven and all is Yes and Amen. He is not a man that he should lie – He has spoken and shall make it Good. We are the earthly vessels, it is man that perverts and distorts God’s Word and Promises. God’s CLEAR promises of Healing I have no problem with. The burden of proof must fall on you to say that healing covers ALL the ailments of this body. God’s promise is healing for sickness’, anything more we have no ground (verse) to stand on and believe for. Not to say God can’t or won’t heal in these circumstances. I’m saying in these vessels have no scripture to stand on. We all know the results of the lack of different dietary items. Rickets, scurvy etc. and this knowledge is all directly the result of medical science. I ask – where do we draw the line. Do we cast it all out – say even physical exercise and TRUST God to keep this body. When it comes to sickness – even Doctors will tell you they can only treat the symptoms and not the disease. Here is where the direct promises of God can and should be applied. If our ailment is from say lack of physical exercise. We have a command (responsibility) to maintain this temple, if we are not – we have NO promises to stand on. It is plainly the result of SIN, and we should know the steps required from there. JRS To really grasp the Nature of God one must grasp the Desires of the True and Living God, our Lord and Savoir JESUS.
Good morning, gentlemen! (I assume you are gentlemen and not ladies ) I have been reading all the posts as they come along, and this is a very interesting discussion (and one in which I appreciate the spirit of respect in which everyone is posting). I haven't posted yet, so I thought I might roll a grenade into the tent and run. I will stand back and read the responses and post when I can. Here is my opinion on the current discussion based upon my study of the scriptures: Spiritual healing (aka salvation) is guaranteed in the atonement. Physical healing is provided for in the atonement, but not guaranteed. The Word states that "all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." This is the spiritual healing that we all needed as sinners who were "dead in our trespasses and sins." Since Jesus walked the earth, this promise has never failed. The same cannot be said for healing. Christians have been getting sick and dying since Jesus was here and will continue to do so until the end. The Bible even speaks of people dying during the millennium reign. What do you think happened to all the people that Jesus healed during his earthly ministry? They all eventually died, and I'm sure that it wasn't always from old age. Like others have stated on this board, this is part of the curse brought about by Adam's sin. Until this curse is removed (and until Death is cast into the lake of fire), people will continue to get sick and will continue to die. Now, that being said, can Christians still receive supernatural healing? Absolutely! I had a recent experience with some spots on the ball of my foot. I'm not sure what they were, but they seemed to spread every month. At first, it was just an irritation. Soon, however, they began to hurt when I walked. I remember praying over those spots and asking Jesus to remove them and heal my body. I forgot about it until a few months later when I was sitting on the couch without socks. I happened to look down at the bottom of my foot, and I remembered my petition to God. The sole of my foot was completely normal. Praise the Lord! Does this mean that a Christian will always receive supernatural healing? No. We all know many Christians that did not receive healing and eventually died. Just like HEF. For anyone to come right out and say that the atonement guarantees our physical healing, means that they have misinterpreted the scripture or they are completely blind to the truth. Just some simple thoughts. Duncan
Grenade – OK – seems to be lacking a fuse though. Just some observations of what you have stated. Duncan wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 11:15 Spiritual healing (aka salvation) is guaranteed in the atonement. Physical healing is provided for in the atonement, but not guaranteed. The Word states that "all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." This is the spiritual healing that we all needed as sinners who were "dead in our trespasses and sins." Since Jesus walked the earth, this promise has never failed. The same cannot be said for healing. Christians have been getting sick and dying since Jesus was here and will continue to do so until the end. The Bible even speaks of people dying during the millennium reign. I see the guarantee for the healing of sicknesses in James 5:14 & 15. This sure does seem to be a PROMISE – guarantee to me. It’s VERY dangerous to rely on experience as a foundation for faith. This is exactly what you are doing here in basing your faith on past experiences. Christians who have died from sickness – the problem was on there part. God’s Word is forever settled in Heaven and it shall not return void. – God in NO way is lying in James 5 here. Also if you are going to use this denominational line of thinking to validate or explain scripture, think about what you are saying. Do you or have you known anyone who has experienced 1st hand the life after death and can validate that “all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”?? If so let us know. Otherwise basing it on experience would be completely wrong to try to make the statement that this has never failed. Healing is part of the Atonement, physical, no question there. It is for sicknesses and is promised to ALL believers. It is conditional though as one can see. The problem is that it has been assumed that Healing covers ALL ailments that can come upon this physical body. There are NO promises (guarantees) one can base their Faith on against the natural aging and deterioration of the body, or broken bones, ect. Consequently we should not be in the bondage that Doctors are completely evil and it is sin to even consider to seek help from them. It is interesting that when is comes to sicknesses that the Doctors will tell you that all they can do is to treat the symptoms and in no way can they cure the disease. This is the areas that they very close to the ancient sorceries and magic healers
JRS said, "Christians who have died from sickness – the problem was on there part." JRS, I generally agree with the rest of your post, but I'm disappointed that you would make such a statement. All the believers over the years who have died from sickness have had a problem on their part? There is nowhere in scripture that teaches that there must be sin or some shortcoming on the part of the person who was not healed. That was actually a belief that was held by many people in Jesus' time, even though Job teaches otherwise. Job's friends told him there was a problem with Job. Job essentially said that there was a problem with God. The Lord rebuked Job, but was angry with his friends. His message to both of them? "I do what I want to do. Quit trying to blame me (Job) or come up with simple explanations (friends). I will allow to happen what happens, and you cannot always explain it." Of course, we were given a glimpse of what was going on in the spiritual realm at the beginning of the book. Yes, the Lord healed Job, but what if He hadn't? Instead of saying that there must have been a problem on their part, why can't we just say that the Lord chose not to heal them, and we don't know why? The Lord has promised healing, and we need to ask Him to heal us and believe that He will, but He does not always answer the way we expect Him to. Oftentimes He does. If He does not heal, it is not necessarily anyone's fault or a problem on their part. If the Lord were so predictable, He would not be God. We will know fully when that which is perfect has come...
Jisamazed said, The Lord has promised healing, and we need to ask Him to heal us and believe that He will, but He does not always answer the way we expect Him to. Interesting that you should bring up Job. Yes his affliction, Boils, lasted for some time. He was ridiculed for it and did what he could. You ask the question, What if he would have died? We could ask WHAT IF’s on almost a continual basis and I believe this is a mentality Satan would just love for us to speculate in. What if Paul died before making it Rome? What if John died before writing Revelations? We could go on and on wasting time on speculating on What if’s. The point is Job was healed. If he wouldn’t have been, the book would probably have a different name. The point is – When God states something in His Word – It is Absolute. If we cannot look at the Word of God in this manor then we are wasting our time for how can we be sure about or own salvation? James 5:14 is very specific. God promises Healing for the sick. This is an area that the teaching of the past still hold so true and the logic it bought forth. If God promises it and we fail to receive it – the problem is not on God’s part. It is not an issue that if it stated that it is not his Will 100% of the time. If I can use the terminology – if God said it – that settles it. In James here one could go on about how to receive the healing. They must humble themselves and seek out the elders of the church. The elders are to anoint with oil. Pray the Prayer of Faith and so on. The teachings about healing that were bought forth shook the denominational church and their way of thinking. The message was clear. It said healing is in scripture, it is in the atonement and it is for today. It was reasoned that if healing is in the atonement and we know that salvation is in the atonement. Then a believer has the same grounds to stand on and believe they are healed as certainly as they are saved. The error comes in and fuels your train of thought, in that it was promoted that healing covered all ailments, flaws, and injuries of this natural body. This was never intended in scripture. Sickness is the only thing covered in the atonement. God has always healed as shown all through the OT and does continue to heal today. Yet all other cases fall in your line of thinking – God can, Is it His Will?? The problem is many who were of the persuasion that healing covered ALL things have suffered and even died as a result. I see the promise as being settled. I guess the question is – Can we or can’t we look on James 5;14 as a promise?? If it is not then why bother. If it is - and one fulfills all it’s conditions and what they have is a sickness, not something that is a result of the fall or injury ect., then God Will be Faithful to his Word and HEAL. JRS For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
JRS, Everyone seems to keep quoting James 5 in their defense that healing is a guaranteed promise. I wonder how many of you have gone back and studied the Greek for James 5:15. It may surprise you. First of all, the word for "sick" in the 14th verse ("Is there any sick among you...") is not the same word used in verse 15. The word for "sick in the 14th verse actually means sick or diseased. The word for "sick" in verse 15 means faint, tired or weary. Secondly, the Greek word for "save" in verse 15 ("and the prayer of faith shall save the sick") is "sozo" and it means to rescue from destruction, deliver from judgment or save from evil. It is the same word used in Matthew 1:21 when the angel tells Mary that Jesus will "save his people from their sins" or when Peter is sinking in the water and he says to Jesus, "Lord, Save me!" Only 2 times is this word used to mean "physical healing", but there are over 100 references to "spiritual healing." After study, I hardly think this is a passage that should be used to give evidence that God guarantees our physical healing. In fact, the context of the whole verse speaks to spiritual healing, because it ends by referring to the person's sins being forgiven after the prayer of faith. Let me conclude by saying that this post is NOT meant to deny supernatural healing. It is a post, however, that asks people to use proper exposition when basing a doctrine on a passage of scripture. Have a blessed day, Duncan
I have been reading the posts concerning healing and wanted to comment. It seems to me that the issues concerning the faith message and Br. Freeman are really issues over the word of God. While Br. Freeman has been quoted quite a bit and criticized for saying this or that, the real issue that we should be concerned about is what did God say about the matter? What does the word of God say? In the end it really isn’t going to matter what Br. Freeman or anyone else said about anything, Unless they are giving us the word of God. Shouldn’t we be looking to the word? A few months ago I was thinking about something a sister had said about trying to figure out what a certain scripture meant. This acripture was very clear in its meaning but as I was pondering this the Lord spoke to my heart and he said that he doesn’t want his people trying to figure out what he meant by what he said. He wants us to just believe that he said what he meant. What would happen if we, as believers, quit trying to figure out why certain things have happened in the past and just believe God? What would happen if we quit trying to figure out what God meant by what he said and instead believe what he said? We are going to be judged by the word, not by someone’s opinion about what the word means. So what did God say? His word is absolute. He has told us that he is not a man that he should lie, neither the son of man that he should repent. So that gives us the assurance that we can trust him to do what he said he would do. Everything that doesn’t agree with God’s word is just man’s opinion so what did God say concerning healing?. "And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee." (Exodus 23:25) "And he said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee." (Exodus 15:26) "For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD." (Jeremiah 30:17a) "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35) "Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. (Psalm 91:3-6, 10) "The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles." (Psalm 34:15, 17) "Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise." (Jeremiah 17:14) "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." (John 14:13-14) "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." (John 15:7) "And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." (Mark 11:22-24) "Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matthew 21:21-22) "Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James 5:14-15) "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:17-18) "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." (Isaiah 53:4-5) "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, Himself (Jesus) took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." (Matthew 8:17) "The LORD is nigh (near) unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all. He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken." (Psalm 34:18-20) "Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit." (Jeremiah 17:5-8) Please note that Jesus said we can ask what we will and he will give it to us. And whatsoever we ask in prayer believing we receive, we shall have. Absolutely nowhere is physical healing excluded. So what saith the scriptures?
Refreshing! Thanks for the reminder Psalm91... Blessings, William
Duncan wrote: Quote: After study, I hardly think this is a passage that should be used to give evidence that God guarantees our physical healing. In fact, the context of the whole verse speaks to spiritual healing, because it ends by referring to the person's sins being forgiven after the prayer of faith. So, after your exposition, what is the practical application of the verse? Do you mean that the verse is more like a Catholic priest (or priests in this case) administering the last rites? Blessings, William
Moulder, I don't claim to have all the answers. In looking at James 5, however, it would seem to suggest that this passage is mainly dealing with Christians who are struggling in their spiritual walk with Jesus. Maybe they have been in a backslidden state and have lost their "first love." That would seem to fit the word "sick" which means weary or faint. It would also fit the word for "save" which means to be rescued from destruction or judgment. Like I said before, please don't think that I am "anti-divine healing," because I am certainly not. It just seems to me that this passage in James continues to be taken out of context to justify God's guarantee of healing. I would say that this is also the case with many Old Testament passages that deal with healing, because if studied in context, they were specifically addressed to the children of Israel. The bottom line for me is that we all must be careful not to take scripture out of its spiritual or historical context. Watch out for the storms coming through today. (Although, it looks like the weather forecast has toned down since yesterday.) May the Lord bless, Duncan
Duncan wrote: Only 2 times is this word used to mean "physical healing", but there are over 100 references to "spiritual healing." Actually this isn't accurate. The word is used by my count at least 17 times in the sense of physical healing: Saved, Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. Save, Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Whole, Mat 9:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. (3 times in the above 2 verses.) Mar 5:28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague. Mar 6:56 And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: and as many as touched him were made whole. Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way. Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace. Luk 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole. Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole. Act 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Healed, Mar 5:23 And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live. Luk 8:36 They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed. Act 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Thought you might want to know about these verses-- just in case you might be preaching on the subject! Blessings, William
Quote: I don't claim to have all the answers. In looking at James 5, however, it would seem to suggest that this passage is mainly dealing with Christians who are struggling in their spiritual walk with Jesus. Maybe they have been in a backslidden state and have lost their "first love." That would seem to fit the word "sick" which means weary or faint. It would also fit the word for "save" which means to be rescued from destruction or judgment. I'm not sure why you would ignore the obvious reference to the anointing oil, which is used with reference not to spiritual healing, but physical healing as in: Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent. Mar 6:13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. Anointing with oil, presumably coupled with the laying on of hands, has been the commission of the Church since its inception... Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Blessings, William
Thanks for the feedback. I haven't started working on my sermon yet. Duncan
Moulder, I didn't ignore the annointing of oil. I agree that it was used many times related to physical healing. However, you would have to agree with me that annointing with oil was also used to signify the setting apart of someone for service to God. Could it not be possible that this person in James 5 would be setting his life apart for service to God? Please don't think I'm being argumentative. I'm just making observations. Duncan
Duncan wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 16:18 Moulder, I didn't ignore the annointing of oil. I agree that it was used many times related to physical healing. However, you would have to agree with me that annointing with oil was also used to signify the setting apart of someone for service to God. Could it not be possible that this person in James 5 would be setting his life apart for service to God? Please don't think I'm being argumentative. I'm just making observations. Duncan I don't think you are being argumentative! (I don't think you have an argument! <grin>... just kidding!) To my knowledge the only other NT passage dealing with anointing with oil is the passage I quoted; now if you want to assume that the sick person in James five is being ordained or something, akin to the OT anointing, then I'll have to say that it seems a bit of a stretch, but hey, I like to take the obvious meaning before I try to explain something away. If the tenor of Jesus' ministry didn't include physical healing I might lean toward another meaning, but since He was healing people all of the time, and sending out his disciples who were healing people, and since the Church has been given the gifts of healing, then I see no reason to jump to some other conclusion. Blessings, William
JRS said, "Interesting that you should bring up Job. Yes his affliction, Boils, lasted for some time. He was ridiculed for it and did what he could. You ask the question, What if he would have died? We could ask WHAT IF’s on almost a continual basis and I believe this is a mentality Satan would just love for us to speculate in. What if Paul died before making it Rome? What if John died before writing Revelations? We could go on and on wasting time on speculating on What if’s. The point is Job was healed. If he wouldn’t have been, the book would probably have a different name." The only reason why I ask "what if Job had died" is because many Jobs we know HAVE died in our time, and too often pat answers are given that there must have been something wrong on their part. As long as we are alive we can ask the Lord to heal us and stand on his promise to do so. If the healing does not occur, we have to allow for more than saying, "there is a problem on their part, not God's". The hidden things belong to God, and let's not pretend we know that the person had some shortcoming. I disagree with Duncan's interpretation of James 5, although I understand his suspicion of people trying to bind others with it. It is meant to be a freeing scripture, not a source of bondage. I do believe that it is a promise for healing, just like many others in scripture (it is interesting that HEF stated that the passage was not for today for FA late in his life). If you stand on that promise, make sure you called for prayer and anointing from the elders first. The Lord has healed me and my family numerous times, and I have had the privilege of seeing others healed when I have prayed for them. Frankly, the Lord does not do things the way that we expect sometimes. He does not have to. When we become presumptuous that He has to do things a certain way, such as always heal without the use of medical science, He has a way of teaching us a lesson. Frankly, it is kind of disturbing that we need to even have this conversation after all these years. It would not have been necessary if the "faith camp" had not made such an idol of it. When I read about and observe people who have suffered greatly for the name of Jesus, this topic seems shallow and stupid. They have watched relatives get killed or spent years in jail simply because they believe that Jesus is God. It puts things into perspective. Yes, we can ask the Lord to heal us, and He often will. Hello. Now put the teaching of divine healing in its proper place on the Biblical priority list, long after God's plan for redemption, somewhere after the fruit of the spirit but before eschatology. I tell my kids, "No fussing over less important matters." Bosworth told Branham once, "No fussing" (...with other Christians in the area of divine healing). Intelligent discussion like we're having is helpful, but don't let it degenerate to fussing and strife over words like it is a top priority for the kingdom of God. Hopefully none of you will let your children die due to your theology that you have expressed. I hope that we are all at least past that way of thinking. Ugh.
jisamzed said: Frankly, it is kind of disturbing that we need to even have this conversation after all these years. I cannot agree with you here. After all these years, yes, yet this kind of conversation is one that is a long time coming. What is really sad is could any of us imagined having this type of conversation say 25 - 30 years ago? We know what the results would have been. I think there would be NO question to the statement that what was taught at FA was special and unique in many ways and because what you said, “I ask "what if Job had died" is because many Jobs we know HAVE died in our time, and too often pat answers are given that there must have been something wrong on their part.” The teachings were special and unique and there was error also. Many have classified FA in the same category as any other Denominational church or sect by saying they had some truth otherwise it was mostly error. There is no question that error is present in the teaching in many aspects. Many have completely turned their backs on FA and as a result have shut off the truths that exist in the teachings. I know I can speak for myself and others that I was close to. We saw that there were major problems that came forth and consequently one can’t help but having the feeling of being betrayed, and even used. Then it seems natural that one begins to question the very foundation of why they were there and asking God for answers. Many of the ones I have known have completely thrown out all of the teachings as a result. Personally, that was something I could not do because I saw the truth God had blessed us with and I could not deny the testimony of how God had established the ministry (including HEF) and yet it all fell apart. Consequently one must divide the wheat from the chaff. With time I have experienced a number of churches and I come to the conclusion that the amount of truth that is present here far out weighs the error. It is the defining and understanding of that error that in required. When one understands it the stronger one becomes about the truths that will prevail. As I fully understand what Duncan is attempting to say about James 5 and not wanting to bind others with the ideas that were taught at FA. This is a good example of what I have seen and experienced. One looks at scripture and the desire is to believe it yet one has a hard time or even cannot take it for what it says because of the hurt (whatever the feelings are) that one has experienced. By one acknowledging and defining the error that was bought forth, one has a clearer vision of what the truth is. Healing happens to be a very big issue. Though it shouldn’t be and I agree with you jisamazed – “this topic seems shallow.” . Yet NOT STUPID. Simply by the interest many have shown and the diversity of understanding of it should begin to reveal it’s importance. One of the biggest issues the denominational church has propagated is the idea that God doesn’t work today as he did in the past. They add support to that concept after large calamities in asking the question – How could God allow that??. -You know were the logic will take you on that path. -Others say God is real yet just not involved with the earthly things. -Then you have others that say God is involved yet – He is somewhere on the fringes watching. -Others say God is working today and he will – If it be Thy will. -and there are a few who look and seek in the Word of God to see and understand his will towards us and DARE to believe it. Healing would be a major way God could manifest himself to us and others that he is real and still working the same as he always has. You ask why I center on James 5 so much – It is the only place in the NT – where it is specified and promised to us. There are many references in the OT and even quoted –Mat 8:17. They add to the strength of this promise. This was written out in James for a reason. So it was not just left in the wind as it seems that jisamzed is explaining. Frankly, the Lord does not do things the way that we expect sometimes. He does not have to. When we become presumptuous that He has to do things a certain way, So true, such as always heal without the use of medical science, I would say thier is error with this statement….. He has a way of teaching us a lesson. The healing message as I experienced it. If someone else has something to comment – Please do ------ 1. Jesus has provides physical healing for us in the atonement and it is for today. 2. We have as much right to believe for healing as we do for our salvation. 3. If God has healed us, then it is sin for us to take steps to do things for our healing. 4. If we are “walking out our faith and enduring our trials” it would be sin to attempt to find any relief in any way. – bandages ect. ( arm of the flesh) 5. All forms of Doctors (medical science) are occult and to seek them in any way = sin. 6. To use of common sense in a trail would be sin – showing a lack of faith – This even pertains to physical exercise for the body. I hold to the fact of – Healing as it was taught (basics)at FA is correct. The error entered with the assumption that Healing applies to ALL ailments of this physical body and along with this came going to Doctors is sin - leaning on the arm of the flesh. This is where I agree with what jiamazed has stated. God can heal but we have no guarantees apart form sickness. Where we have a direct promise as seen in James 5, we can be as certain of it as we can for the promise of salvation. This promise is for Sickness’s ONLY and I know with thinking about it, there are issues I would have to seek the Lord on for direction if they are a sickness or not. To define them all – I can not. If GOD has promised it in his WORD then everything has been done –past tense- and for us not to receive it and not accepting the blame is to apply that the promises of God are not to be believed. If this is true for one promise, then it is true for all the promises, otherwise are we to believe that some of the promises are for today and some are not. Isn’t this the argument the Baptist church holds towards the Baptism of the Holy Spirit??? The promises for salvation and the promises for healing of Sickness are equal. They are of equal strength and should be of equal value to the believer. JRS ICor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. ICor 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. ICor15:54-58So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
JRS, that was an excellent post. We are all trying to chew the meat and spit out the bones from HEF's teaching. We disagree on what is meat and what is bones, and that is why there is value in this discussion. Some believe that there was no meat, others no bones. For many years some people have not been able to talk about their hurts, frustrations or criticism of HEF for fear of rejection or someone cursing them as if they were an apostate. This is a chance to discuss it. When I say that it is disturbing that we even have to have the conversation, I am responding to those who still seem to have this doctors=unbelief mentality, who are still stuck in 1984. It is puzzling why people can't move past that way of thinking, but I was that way once. I suppose that is the nature of deception. Many of my clients hold to delusions and do not realize it, because a person is not aware of his own delusion by definition. Some humility and divine intervention are the only way out of it. When I say, "...it seems shallow and stupid", it is simply my visceral reaction when think about HEF's comments about medical science and then I read Voice of the Martyrs, which describes the suffering of many faithful Christians around the world. However, I realize that healing has its place, and in fact I pray for a restoration of the healing power that the Lord has given throughout church history. Your comments about denominations, a term that brings an equally visceral reaction in me, deserve a response in a separate post. I think I will start a thread on that topic. Stay tuned.