This is a study I did on the subject a few years ago. I will put it here in its entirety tonight. Then as time is available I will discuss it with whoever is interested. Part 1 Saints, Before the Assemblies can go on to perfection, they must build their faith on certain truths. One of these is Eternal Judgment. God has a plan to rid the world of the wicked. By finding his "bottom line" we can proceed to understand this plan. Old Testament: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 God says souls that sin will die. The key is to understand he means they will die for eternity. ALL people will die the NORMAL death that comes to men if they be saint or sinner. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. EZEKIEL 18:5-9 Now if God is just speaking of the normal life here it would mean that the one who obeys him would NEVER die a normal death! If he lives right he will not die. Was Ezekiel a righteous man? How about Daniel? Yet they DIED! Just as the wicked died so did the righteous. So God was looking beyond the temporal life. New Testament: 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:12-13 Paul promises those who live in the flesh they will die. He promises those who walk in the Spirit they will live. Did Paul walk in the Spirit? Certainly! Did he die? Yes. But why if this was talking about the normal death? He should have continued to live because he mortified the deeds of the flesh. But again BOTH the righteous and the wicked DIED. The way to understand both Ezekiel and Paul is to see they had ETERNITY in mind when they were inspired to write of life and death. Paul makes this revealing statement: 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:21-23 Notice the CONTRAST in verse 23. Those who sin DIE. Those who serve Christ have eternal life. It does NOT say the wages of sin is eternal life in Hell. Did Yeshua teach the DEATH of wicked souls? 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28 The soul CAN be destroyed! Yeshua said so. The context is clear. Men are not able to KILL the soul. But God is able to destroy it. Kill and destroy mean the same thing here. This agrees with the penalty God forewarned through his prophet Ezekiel. The soul that sinneth it SHALL DIE. The purpose of the lake of fire is to DESTROY or ANNIHILATE the souls of the wicked. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20: 13-15 God is restoring this important truth to those who have ears. The first or NORMAL death is experienced by ALL. But those who die the SECOND DEATH will never live again. This is their punishment. IT IS ETERNAL. There is no coming back, no second chance. When they enter the lake of fire they will eventually DIE and that will last for everlasting.
Part 2 Allow me to build a bit of foundation. We see in the gospels both Yeshua and John the Baptist preaching about punishment of fire for the wicked. The big question is where did they get the doctrine? If we can find their REFERENCE POINT we will understand their meaning. The last Prophet before Yeshua and John was MALACHI. I believe much of their doctrine in this matter is referenced back to him. For behold the DAY cometh that shall BURN AS AN OVEN: and all the proud yea and all THAT DO WICKEDLY shall be STUBBLE: and the DAY that cometh shall BURN THEM UP saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings and you shall go forth and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked for they shall be ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET in the day that I shall do this saith the Lord of Hosts. MALACHI 4:1-3 Notice Malachi's emphasis is on THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED. Keeping this in mind lets go to the gospels and visit the teaching of Yeshua and John. And now also the ax is laid to the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. John the Baptist in Matt.3:10 The enemy that sowed them is the devil: the harvest is the end of the world: and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the TARES are gathered and BURNED IN THE FIRE so shall it be in the end of this world. Matt.13:39-40 So shall it be at the end of the world the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matt.13:49-50 Whose fan is in his hand and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner, but THE CHAFF HE WILL BURN with fire unquenchable. John in Luke 3:17 Now my question is where did Yahshua and John get the concepts of the FURNACE OF FIRE? Was it not the same as Malachi's Fiery OVEN? How about the concept of THE TARES and THE CHAFF? Is it not the same as Malachi's STUBBLE? If they are indeed referring back to Malachi his prophetic words carried the message of the DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED as opposed to their never ending torment. This harmonizes with what GOD had already declared to be the punishment of sin. Behold all souls are mine, as the soul of the father so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE. Ezekiel 18:4 If Yeshua and John were not referring back to Malachi, where was their reference point? And fear not them which KILL the body but are not able to KILL the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both SOUL AND BODY IN HELL. Matt.10:28 It was no doubt the destruction of the wicked in Malachi's OVEN YESHUA HAD IN MIND HERE.
And if thy hand offend thee cut it off:it is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell into the FIRE THAT NEVER SHALL BE QUENCHED: Where their worm dieth not and the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. Mark 9:43-44 Can we find an old testament reference for this? If so we can understand his meaning. The reference here goes back to Isaiah 66. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me saith the Lord so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before me saith the Lord. And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have TRANSGRESSED against me: for their worm shall not die neither shall their FIRE BE QUENCHED. And they shall be an abhoring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:22-24 This is the ONLY OTHER REFERENCE POINT for Hell that I know of in the Old Testament aside from the 3rd chapter of Malachi. The hell Yeshua speaks of in Mark 9 is GEHENNA. This was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. All of the trash as well as bodies of criminals were thrown into it. In course of time the Jews connected Gehenna with the FIRE OVEN of MALACHI. The CARCASSES Isaiah speaks of are DEAD BODIES! A CARCASSE is the remains of a dead body. People living in the coming kingdom will periodically look out on this sight of the TRANSGRESSORS who had to be destroyed as a solemn warning against sin. The worm that dieth not is simply showing worms may live off CARCASSES. Let us look at the phrase FIRE SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED in biblical context. But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day and not to bear a burden even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof and it shall DEVOUR the palaces of Jerusalem and IT SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED. Jer.17:27 The Chaldeans came and burned the city. Jer.39:8 Is that unquenchable FIRE still burning today? The FIRE THAT SHALL NOT BE QUENCED means NOTHING can put it out. But when it finishes the job GOD gives it to do it will go out of itself. So again this biblical reference about Hell teaches us of the DESTRUCTION of the wicked. Their CARCASSES shall remain.
Part 4 Once we determine the BOTTOM LINE of a doctrine the rest of scripture can be built upon that bottom line. Ezekiel 18:4 says the soul that sinneth shall die. Yeshua says wicked souls are destroyed in Gehenna. Matt.10:28 Paul says the wages of sin is death. Rom.6:23 With this as a bottom line Matt.25. And these shall go away into into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal. Matt.25:46 The punishment of the wicked IS DEATH. When the wicked go away into eternal punishment that punishment is DEATH. Once they die their is no reprieve, no coming back. Therefore their punishment which is death shall when accomplished BE ETERNAL. But the wicked shall perish and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs:they shall CONSUME, into smoke shall they CONSUME AWAY. Psalms 37:20 The same shall drink of the wine of THE WRATH OF GOD which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy Angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever:and they have no rest day nor night who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev.14:10-11 How are we to interpret this? For ever here is greek 165 in Strongs Concordance. The meaning of for ever is AN AGE. How long is an age? It depends on context. Even the mystery which hath been hid from AGES and from generations,but now is made manifest to his saints. Col.1:26 Now when Paul wrote this the world was about 4000 years old. Yet he says the mystery was hidden to PAST AGES. So within that 4000 years were contained at least 2 if not more AGES or For evers. These beast worshippers could suffer in the fire and brimstone for AGES OR FOR EVERS and then still ultimatley DIE. I believe this will be the case. Again the length of for ever is determined by context. If thousands of years of our way of thinking qualifies as for ever such as in Col.1:26 could it be even shorter in GODS way of thinking? But beloved be not ignorant of this one thing,that ONE DAY is with the Lord as a THOUSAND YEARS and a THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY. 2 Peter 3:8 How long will the wicked suffer in the lake of fire before death and would it be different according to the sentence of GOD against them are interesting questions. However long they may live in the furnace of fire scripture teaches they WILL FINALLY DIE. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.This is THE SECOND DEATH. Rev 20:14
Part 5 Other Apostolic writings. What did apostle James say about eternal judgement? This is all I can find. Let him know that he which coverteth the SINNER from the error of his way SHALL SAVE A SOUL FROM DEATH and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:20 James the Lords brother believed sin led to the DEATH OF THE SOUL not to eternal life in hell. What about Peter? But these as natural brute beasts made to be TAKEN AND DESTROYED speak evil of those things they understand not,and shall UTTERLY PERISH in their own corruption. 2 Peter 2:12 But the heavens and the earth which are now,by the same word are kept in store reserved unto fire against the day of judgement AND PERDITION of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:7 Apostle Peter says the ungodly will be destroyed. Nothing in his writings about immortality in hell for the lost
Last Part What is OUTER DARKNESS? Has anyone noticed the phrase OUTER DARKNESS in scripture? It is pointed out as the fate of the lost. How can two things as different as being in a lake of fire and being in OUTER DARKNESS BOTH be the fate of the lost? This revelation opens the eyes of our understanding to the truth of eternal judgement. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into OUTER DARKNESS: There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt.8:12 These are wells without water,clouds that are carried with a tempest,to whom THE MIST OF DARKNESS IS RESERVED FOREVER. 2 Peter2:17 Raging waves of the sea foaming out their own shame,wandering stars, to whom is reserved THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOREVER. Jude :13 What happened to the lake of fire? Actually DARKNESS is at times used as a metaphor for DEATH. If I wait the GRAVE IS MINE HOUSE :I have made my bed IN DARKNESS. I have said to corruption thou art my father,to the worm thou art my mother and my sister. And where is now my hope?as for my hope who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of the pit when our REST TOGETHER IS IN THE DUST. Job 17:13-16 Though WHILE HE LIVED he blessed his soul:and men will praise thee when thou doest well to thyself. He shall go to the generation of his fathers,they SHALL NEVER SEE LIGHT. Psalms 49:18-19 His roots shall be dried up from beneath and above his branch CUT OFF. His rememberance shall perish from the earth and he shall have no name in the street. He shall be driven from LIGHT INTO DARKNESS and chased OUT OF THE WORLD. Job 18:16-18 So the answer is that when Yeshua,Peter,and Jude proclaim that DARKNESS AWAITS THE LOST they are speaking from the viewpoint that THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE. They will FIRST DIE THE SECOND DEATH in the lake of fire. Then they will pass out of existence and INTO THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOREVER. For the wages of sin is DEATH,BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE through JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. Romans 6:23 peace and love, Mike
Right on Brother... good stuff here. There is no way to rectify all of the inconsistencies of the Damnable Doctrine of Eternal Damnation. Why would a Loving Heavenly Father throw his creations in a cosmic frying pan to be roasted for eternity? His justice? Give me a break. Our worst most cruel mass murderers are given quick, humane deaths, not tortured to death... is God any less compassionate? In a nutshell, after the ressurection, the wicked dead will be raised, judged and condemned to death(the second death). After this judgement there will indeed be weeping, wailing and nashing of teeth when they realize they lost the chance to live forever.
Well I don't agree with eternal annihilation but one thing we can agree on... the whole doctrine of the eternal punishment of the wicked (which I believe) is very very troubling. It is so awesome in its implications that it has to raise some unrest in the heart of any true xian. It certainly does in mine.
Hardbones wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 10:52 Well I don't agree with eternal annihilation but one thing we can agree on... the whole doctrine of the eternal punishment of the wicked (which I believe) is very very troubling. It is so awesome in its implications that it has to raise some unrest in the heart of any true xian. It certainly does in mine. Brother your reaction is a fine one. That is the way I started out when I began to question the doctrine of eternal damnation... something was just not right about it, but I couldn't put my finger on it exactly. Keep in prayer and study and you may be led to the same conclusion that mike and I have reached. You don't have too many options though. Either: 1. God does not judge sin(which we know is untrue). 2. God punishes sin eternally(which just ain't right). 3. God punishes sin once(which fits His nature). Thats about all the choices that I can see... if theres another option let me know.
Well to start off with: Lets try this version of Ezekiel 18:4 18:4 Indeed! All lives are mine – the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one3 who sins will die. Looks like God is refferring to A physical death : If you are right in what you have posted then properly stated : The Wicked die Spiritually. Sounds a little like JDS error. (The key is to understand , when you start off in error you end in error) SOUL (5315) nephesh neh'-fesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it. Eze 18:4 Behold,2005 all3605 souls5315 are mine; as the soul5315 of the father,1 so also the soul5315 of the son1121 is mine: the soul5315 that sinneth,2398 it1931 shall die.4191
Problems with it being mere physical death: Old Testament: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 God says souls that sin will die. The key is to understand he means they will die for eternity. ALL people will die the NORMAL death that comes to men if they be saint or sinner. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. EZEKIEL 18:5-9 Now if God is just speaking of the normal life here it would mean that the one who obeys him would NEVER die a normal death! If he lives right he will not die. Was Ezekiel a righteous man? How about Daniel? Yet they DIED! Just as the wicked died so did the righteous. So God was looking beyond the temporal life. New Testament: 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:12-13 Paul promises those who live in the flesh they will die. He promises those who walk in the Spirit they will live. Did Paul walk in the Spirit? Certainly! Did he die? Yes. But why if this was talking about the normal death? He should have continued to live because he mortified the deeds of the flesh. But again BOTH the righteous and the wicked DIED. The way to understand both Ezekiel and Paul is to see they had ETERNITY in mind when they were inspired to write of life and death.
Quote: JWBTI If you are right in what you have posted then properly stated : The Wicked die Spiritually. What I am stating is that the wicked will face the judgment and be cast into the Lake of Fire. They will eventually die and cease to exist. The way I understand the JDS doctrine it is based upon the false belief of immortal soul. That is the opposite of what I am presenting. What I believe is the wicked DIE FOR ETERNITY.
The most severe judgment I have seen in scripture is YHWH saying he will punish his enemies SEVEN TIMES for their sins. Thats a far cry from billions of times.
JWBTI wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 19:56 Well to start off with: Lets try this version of Ezekiel 18:4 18:4 Indeed! All lives are mine – the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one3 who sins will die. Looks like God is refferring to A physical death : If you are right in what you have posted then properly stated : The Wicked die Spiritually. Sounds a little like JDS error. The JDS error applied to Jesus dying spiritually, whereas anhilationism agrees with your usage of the Hebrew word Nephesh which describes man as a unified living being, not a spirit which can be divorced from the body. When we die, our spirits do not go to some great Limbo or Paradise awaiting reunification with our old, rotten flesh, but we are dead and gone. This is the miracle of the ressurection... creatio ex nihilo again if you will, God raises us from nothing for the last judgement. There is a first and second birth, and a first and second death... nothing could be plainer from the scripture.
Derick N. wrote on Thu, 15 November 2007 05:02 JWBTI wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 19:56 Well to start off with: Lets try this version of Ezekiel 18:4 18:4 Indeed! All lives are mine – the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one3 who sins will die. Looks like God is refferring to A physical death : If you are right in what you have posted then properly stated : The Wicked die Spiritually. Sounds a little like JDS error. The JDS error applied to Jesus dying spiritually, whereas anhilationism agrees with your usage of the Hebrew word Nephesh which describes man as a unified living being, not a spirit which can be divorced from the body. When we die, our spirits do not go to some great Limbo or Paradise awaiting reunification with our old, rotten flesh, but we are dead and gone. This is the miracle of the ressurection... creatio ex nihilo again if you will, God raises us from nothing for the last judgement. There is a first and second birth, and a first and second death... nothing could be plainer from the scripture. To which I say amen.
Eze 18:4 Behold,2005 all3605 souls5315 are mine; as the soul5315 of the father,1 so also the soul5315 of the son1121 is mine: the soul5315 that sinneth,2398 it1931 shall die.4191 18:4 Indeed! All lives are mine – the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one3 who sins will die. Still looks like a physical death to me. About Malachi: 4 Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down6072 the wicked;7563 for3588 they shall be1961 ashes665 under8478 the soles3709 of your feet7272 in the day3117 that834 I589 shall do6213 this, saith559 the LORD3068 of hosts.6635 Only a physical body could give off ashes when burnt. About Matt 25 MIKE : YOU SAID THAT PUNISHMENT IS DEATH Then :Thayer & Strongs Definition must be wrong Mat 25:46 And2532 these3778 shall go away565 into1519 everlasting166 punishment:2851 but1161 the3588 righteous1342 into1519 life2222 eternal.166 Strongs Definition: G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol'-as-is From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment. G2851 κόλασις kolasis Thayer Definition: 1) correction, punishment, penalty Part of Speech: noun feminine A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2849 Citing in TDNT: 3:816, 451 EVERLASTING: G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios Thayer Definition: 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting Part of Speech: adjective A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G165 Citing in TDNT: 1:208, 31 WHAT DO WE DO WITH: LUKE 16:19-31 ?
JWBTI wrote on Thu, 15 November 2007 19:11 About Matt 25 MIKE : YOU SAID THAT PUNISHMENT IS DEATH Then :Thayer & Strongs Definition must be wrong? Eternal Death is not Punishment? Is that what you are trying to say JWBTI? MT25.46 surely says the punishment is eternal, but it does not ennumerate the type or degree of the punishment. κόλασις αἰώνιος rendered "everlasting punishment" may be more properly be rendered as "the punishment of the age or aeon", or a "time-specific judgement" other than the time in which Christ is speaking. Cut and Paste Word Technicians often get in trouble using the letter(Strong's numbers) rather than the Spirit(The deeper meaning of the author).
JWBTI wrote on Thu, 15 November 2007 19:11 Eze 18:4 Behold,2005 all3605 souls5315 are mine; as the soul5315 of the father,1 so also the soul5315 of the son1121 is mine: the soul5315 that sinneth,2398 it1931 shall die.4191 18:4 Indeed! All lives are mine – the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one3 who sins will die. Still looks like a physical death to me. It *is* a total death of the resurrected man, body and spirit. "The one who sins *will* die", not be tortured in a cosmic roasting pan for eternity.
JWBTI wrote on Thu, 15 November 2007 19:11 About Malachi: 4 Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down6072 the wicked;7563 for3588 they shall be1961 ashes665 under8478 the soles3709 of your feet7272 in the day3117 that834 I589 shall do6213 this, saith559 the LORD3068 of hosts.6635 Only a physical body could give off ashes when burnt. It *is* the physical, resurrected, new body mentioned by Paul. The doomed will experience the wonder of having it with much "weeping, wailing and nashing of teeth" while they await their death sentence. Malachi's prophesy concerns the Day of the Lord, which may or may not be specifically speaking of the final judgement and eternal destruction of the wicked, but any point from the Lord's return and last battle.
JWBTI wrote on Thu, 15 November 2007 19:11 WHAT DO WE DO WITH: LUKE 16:19-31 ? 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. What do we do with it? We believe it as a parable, not as a point of doctrine. It is aimed at the Pharisees, who will not believe the Lord "though one rose from the dead", and as such it is not a literal narrative. If this passage really teaches a truth about a two-compartmented hell between death and the resurrection, then it also teaches salvation by poverty and damnation by wealth, as that is all the Rich Man and Lazarus are guilty of.
Quote: JWBTI Only a physical body could give off ashes when burnt. Well I dont think I can answer every question about the topic. But if that stumbles you on annihilation what about the classic doctrine of eternal torment as from Lazarus and the rich man? 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. How could Lazarus dipping his finger in WATER relieve the suffering of the rich man who is assumed to be/have an IMMORTAL SOUL? Would it not be SPIRITUAL? I think your question is in the same vein as mine. However can you find ANY references to people being burned at the judgment or afterwards in the Old Testament besides Malachi 4 or Isaiah 66? I believe those are the two points of reference Jesus used concerning it. Where did he get the doctrine of burning in Gehenna if not from there?
I agree with Derick about Lazarus and the rich man. Yeshua took the Pharisees belief borrowed from the Greek version of Hades and used it against THEM. It is a parable. His own teaching about what happens when we die is seen in such verses as this: 39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-40 44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28-29 The dead are not sitting around in Paradise or in Hades. They are IN THE GRAVES as said by Yeshua.
Derick said: Well like I said, I'm not a cut and paste word technician. You can prove anything you want out of the word by hacking out a scripture hooking it up with another unrelated scripture. Brother Derick That was a little harsh ! I've been a little short on time & just wanted to get into this discussion with my brothers. It has been wonderful so far. Sorry about the cut & paste,I'll be back later....In my own words Thanks for the insite Brothers, Ron
How long is forever? In the Hebrew language it can be one extreme to another. How long was the Prophet Jonah in the fish belly? 1: Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 2: And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. 3: For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. 4: Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. 5: The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. 6: I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. Jonah 2:1-6 Jonah said he was there FOREVER! Yet how long was he there? We know Yeshua said it was three days. 3 days = forever? Yes in THAT CASE. Proving forever means whatever is meant by the author/speaker. The disciples of Yeshua were Hebrews like he was. They thought like Hebrews. Forever to THEM was understood by context. 8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Derick said:Ref: Luke 16:19-31 What do we do with it? We believe it as a parable, not as a point of doctrine. It is aimed at the Pharisees, who will not believe the Lord "though one rose from the dead", and as such it is not a literal narrative. If this passage really teaches a truth about a two-compartmented hell between death and the resurrection, then it also teaches salvation by poverty and damnation by wealth, as that is all the Rich Man and Lazarus are guilty of. ************************************************************ ******************************** My reply: The Book of Ezekiel is FILLED with PARABLES & PROVERBS aimed at Israel. ( So as you say: Derick, We believe it as a parable, not as a point of doctrine", and as such it is not a literal narrative) So to use Eze 18:4 as a point of doctrine is null & void. It was a rebuke to Israel 18:1-3 for that time an age. That is to say , IF I follow your thoughts about it just being a fictious story used to teach truth about Gods Word: Jesus ALWAYS spoke the Truth ! (Ref: Lk 16) Do I understand it all....Nope ! I'am I : pro or conn ref the subject ? Looking at both sides an open to all the Truth ref Gods Word. But if Death ends it all: (as you say.) Lets eat ,drink an be merry: tomorrow we die.....with no real penalty for our sin !
Michael The Disciple wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 23:19 How long is forever? In the Hebrew language it can be one extreme to another. How long was the Prophet Jonah in the fish belly? 1: Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 2: And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. 3: For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. 4: Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. 5: The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. 6: I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. Jonah 2:1-6 Jonah said he was there FOREVER! Yet how long was he there? We know Yeshua said it was three days. 3 days = forever? Yes in THAT CASE. Proving forever means whatever is meant by the author/speaker. The disciples of Yeshua were Hebrews like he was. They thought like Hebrews. Forever to THEM was understood by context. 8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Mike I agree with you at this point ref (forever)
Paul teaches us the PENALTY OF SIN as well as the reward of the righteous: 21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:21-23 Some sinners may be burning in Hell a long time. Others may die right away. The end result is the same. The justice of YHWH knows how to give everyone the suffering they desrve before then. Another thing if the wages of sin IS ETERNAL TORMENT in Gehenna why is Jesus not still there? But if the wages of sin is DEATH we understand the resurrection of Jesus. If eternity in Hell WERE the wages of sin to take OUR PLACE he would still be there.
Can anyone find where Paul mentioned burning for eternity in Gehenna?
JWBTI wrote on Sat, 17 November 2007 07:16 My reply: The Book of Ezekiel is FILLED with PARABLES & PROVERBS aimed at Israel. ( So as you say: Derick, We believe it as a parable, not as a point of doctrine", and as such it is not a literal narrative) So to use Eze 18:4 as a point of doctrine is null & void. It was a rebuke to Israel 18:1-3 for that time an age. That is to say , IF I follow your thoughts about it just being a fictious story used to teach truth about Gods Word: Jesus ALWAYS spoke the Truth ! (Ref: Lk 16) Do I understand it all....Nope ! I'am I : pro or conn ref the subject ? Looking at both sides an open to all the Truth ref Gods Word. But if Death ends it all: (as you say.) Lets eat ,drink an be merry: tomorrow we die.....with no real penalty for our sin ! Again Brother, is Eternal Death not enough penalty for sin? What did you ever that was so bad that you need to be fried alive for eternity? You had a lustful thought? Oh my! You stole some money once? Bad Boy! Get in the Eternal Frying Pan right now! You are not suffering enough! You must suffer harder and foreveeeeerrrrrr! I'm starting to see that revelation is heavily involved in our understanding of scripture. Maybe all this is "vain wrangling" about the Word, and is as such mostly useless.
Michael The Disciple wrote on Sat, 17 November 2007 08:39 Can anyone find where Paul mentioned burning for eternity in Gehenna? The use of the description of the garbage dump outside Jerusalem in the valley of Hinnom (gehenna) is specific to Yeshua. Most others biblical authors use "Lake of Fire", "Outer Darkness', etc.
Michael The Disciple wrote on Sat, 17 November 2007 08:35 Paul teaches us the PENALTY OF SIN as well as the reward of the righteous: 21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:21-23 Some sinners may be burning in Hell a long time. Others may die right away. The end result is the same. The justice of YHWH knows how to give everyone the suffering they desrve before then. Whoa Nelly. God is merciful and full of mercy. He does not wish suffering on anyone, even the worst of sinners. The weeping, wailing and knashing of teeth come from the incredible sense of loss the unredeemed feel at their knowledge of the loss of eternal life. Nobody is going to "burn in hell" a long time, because there is no "hell" which is a Norse word not even found in scripture, but of course you meant Lake of Fire. The lake of fire is simply a way to end the lives of the unredeemed in a quick and humane(or merciful) manner.
Gentlemen, Although I read all the posts that come through this site, I don't have a lot of time to post. As such, I post when I can. After teaching out of Matthew this weekend, I thought I would post something Jesus said, because I TOTALLY disagree with annihilation. When discussing the sheep and the goats, Jesus refers several times to "everlasting" when He describes "everlasting fire" and "everlasting punishment." What seals it for me is that He uses the exact same Greek word (Aionios - which means "without end") in verse 46 of Matthew 25 to describe eternal punishement and eternal life. I don't need to be given anymore verses than that single verse, because if Jesus said it only once, that would be enough for me. If you don't believe in eternal punishment, then you can't believe in eternal life, because Jesus describes them both right here. Like I said, there would be no other scripture that could refute this fact, because Jesus Himself said it as clear as crystal several times in this passage. Duncan
Duncan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 12:19 Gentlemen, Although I read all the posts that come through this site, I don't have a lot of time to post. As such, I post when I can. After teaching out of Matthew this weekend, I thought I would post something Jesus said, because I TOTALLY disagree with annihilation. Of course you disagree. Its what you were taught to do. Me too, until I spent a whole summer in study and prayer on little but this issue. Duncan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 12:19 When discussing the sheep and the goats, Jesus refers several times to "everlasting" when He describes "everlasting fire" and "everlasting punishment." What seals it for me is that He uses the exact same Greek word (Aionios - which means "without end") in verse 46 of Matthew 25 to describe eternal punishement and eternal life. Here we go again. Is not Eternal Death a punishment when opposed to Eternal Life? It is a death "without end". Duncan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 12:19 I don't need to be given anymore verses than that single verse, because if Jesus said it only once, that would be enough for me. If you don't believe in eternal punishment, then you can't believe in eternal life, because Jesus describes them both right here. You cannot see that Eternal Life is better paired with Eternal Death, than with some type of nebulous Eternal Torment? This is another example of a brother taking a verse or two and building a theology, mostly because of what he was taught. Duncan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 12:19 Like I said, there would be no other scripture that could refute this fact, because Jesus Himself said it as clear as crystal several times in this passage. It is indeed crystal clear Duncan. We all believe in Eternal Punishment here, what is at question is the nature of it. Eternal Death seems to fit the meaning of the scriptures as a diametrically proper punishment rather than being placed in a slow cooker for eternity
Derick, A quick response to your email. If all Jesus talked about was eternal punishment, then I could understand (even though I still would believe it to be error) how you could come up with eternal death (i.e. ceasing to exist). However, since Jesus mentioned "eternal fire," I would have to disagree. I would follow the same logic that you used to counter the post-trib rapture error. You asked the question - Why would the church need to be raptured if Jesus was already coming after the tribulation anyway? My question would be - Why would Jesus describe an "eternal fire" if nobody was going to be in it? What would be the reason for calling it "eternal"? Why not just refer to the judgement as "fire"? We need to let God be God. People get into error when they try to make God's ways line up with our finite human brain. God states that "His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts." I take that to mean that I will never be able to fully understand why God does what He does. I just have to let Him be God. I don't begin to know why He would punish someone in fire forever, when they lived in sin on the earth for 70 or 80 years. The good thing about it is that I don't have to know. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am saved and am a joint heir-with Jesus Christ. My future in the Kingdom of God is certain. Duncan
Duncan said: Quote: My question would be - Why would Jesus describe an "eternal fire" if nobody was going to be in it? What would be the reason for calling it "eternal"? Why not just refer to the judgement as "fire"? Same thing could be said about "eternal punishment", why not just say "punishment"? Someone asked, what could be so egregious as to warrant "eternal" punishment? By the same token, what within us is worthy of "eternal" life? And what of Satan? Is he really bad enough to warrant the following pronouncement? Quote: Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. We don't get to determine what is "fair" and what is not! But hey, if God wants to change His mind and commute a sentence here and there, I’m sure He’ll be able to do it without contradiction to His triune nature! Blessings, William
William, I like the way you threw "Triune" into the mix. We trinitarians have to stick together! Duncan
Naturally! Not to mention the fact that we need something to do as we await the fearful judgment that awaits us in that big Iron Bowl next week! <sigh>
moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 15:38 Duncan said: Quote: My question would be - Why would Jesus describe an "eternal fire" if nobody was going to be in it? What would be the reason for calling it "eternal"? Why not just refer to the judgement as "fire"? Same thing could be said about "eternal punishment", why not just say "punishment"? The punishment(death) *is* forever, thats why it is said that way. moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 15:38 Someone asked, what could be so egregious as to warrant "eternal" punishment? By the same token, what within us is worthy of "eternal" life? Exactly William... Eternal Life is a Gift, undeserved and unwarranted, which is why the unbelieving will cry out when they see they have not received it. moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 15:38 And what of Satan? Is he really bad enough to warrant the following pronouncement? Quote: Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Here is the only valid argument for eternal torment except that the word “tormented” is the Greek basanizo, which originally meant a means of testing and examination. It was used of a touchstone for metals, and later to scourge in a general sense. Also notice that no humans are said to be involved in this "torment", only the three, Devil, Beast and false prophet who are either systems as some believe or are supernatural. Hebrews 2:14 says that the Devil is to be destroyed, and that word is very clear in the greek. Also clear is that Rev 20:10 may be symbolic language as is much of Revelations. moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 15:38 We don't get to determine what is "fair" and what is not! But hey, if God wants to change His mind and commute a sentence here and there, I’m sure He’ll be able to do it without contradiction to His triune nature! The wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment, with no commutations or parole or time off for good behavior.
Derick said: (I'm starting to see that revelation is heavily involved in our understanding of scripture. Maybe all this is "vain wrangling" about the Word, and is as such mostly useless.) To this I say: I totally agree with you. It has been an interesting issue Mike & Derick, we love ya man ! Blessings in Jesus Name Brother Ron
Okay guys, spiritualize as much as you want, but I'm not buying it... let's see, Ezekiel, Jesus, Revelation, heck*, it isn't worth bringing up another scripture cause you guys will just say it doesn't mean what it says. * heck : euphemistic alteration of hell, first recorded 1865. hell : euphemism [we now know] for the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits; Gehenna or Tartarus. handbasket : vehicle used to convey this discussion to the garbage dump of worthless discussions!
moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 20:23 Okay guys, spiritualize as much as you want, but I'm not buying it... let's see, Ezekiel, Jesus, Revelation, heck*, it isn't worth bringing up another scripture cause you guys will just say it doesn't mean what it says. The scriptures mean what they say, you are just putting them together wrong. But I'm not "spiritualizing" anything. Thats always the cop-out when people run out of arguments. At least you are not accusing Mike and I of being deluded by doctrines of demons... something I would have expected in the good old days. lol moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 20:23 * heck : euphemistic alteration of hell, first recorded 1865. hell : euphemism [we now know] for the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits; Gehenna or Tartarus. handbasket : vehicle used to convey this discussion to the garbage dump of worthless discussions! Not worthless Brother, just useless. These revelations come by much study, prayer and agony. Imagine the pain of giving up a doctrine that I had preached as "gospel" for years... it was gut wrenching, not something you are going to perceive because some guy wrote a few lines about in in a forum.
Quote: The scriptures mean what they say, you are just putting them together wrong. But I'm not "spiritualizing" anything. Thats always the cop-out when people run out of arguments. Well, whether it is you or your buddy, spiritualizing the word is what is taking place. Denying that the spiritualizing of the word is taking place is either blindness on your part or a willful lack of discernment. You'll need only to satisfy yourself as far as your opinion on whether or not I've "run out of arguments", but if your mind isn't completely closed you might consider that a lack of response to you and your cohort is not a result of a lack of an argument, but rather a lack of interest in what some consider a worthless position defended by persons who aren't likely to change. As a wise man once said, "it is like bailing the ocean out with a spoon", certainly not something I want to attempt. Ditto that for the oneness manifesto thread. William
Will the devil live forever? Who knows where we got the teaching about the devil being a great angelic being who sinned his position away? Here it is. What we know about the origin of the devil: 11: Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12: Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13: Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14: Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15: Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16: By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18: Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19: All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Ezekiel 28:11-19 If this is not talking about satan then we know really nothing about his origin. Yet it also tells of HIS END. He shall be burned up and BE NO MORE! Revelation says this: 10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev. 20:10 Yet Ezekiel said he will be burned up and be no more. The seeming contradiction goes away when we know that forever and ever does not mean something that never ends. Rather it is a plural of ages. The devil and his beast followers will be tormented for a number of ages. How long an age is is known only to YAH. 8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8 After that they shall die.
moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46 Quote: The scriptures mean what they say, you are just putting them together wrong. But I'm not "spiritualizing" anything. Thats always the cop-out when people run out of arguments. Quote: Well, whether it is you or your buddy, spiritualizing the word is what is taking place. Denying that the spiritualizing of the word is taking place is either blindness on your part or a willful lack of discernment. You'll need only to satisfy yourself as far as your opinion on whether or not I've "run out of arguments", but if your mind isn't completely closed you might consider that a lack of response to you and your cohort is not a result of a lack of an argument, but rather a lack of interest in what some consider a worthless position defended by persons who aren't likely to change. As a wise man once said, "it is like bailing the ocean out with a spoon", certainly not something I want to attempt. Ditto that for the oneness manifesto thread . William Perhaps there is a lack of interest on your part. Yet there are some of us out here who have done the homework and were stunned to see the overwhelming scriptural foundation for annihilation. True to some no big deal. But to me who had preached the wicked would gain immortality in the fires of Gehenna for EIGHTEEN YEARS it was huge. It funny that no one can present one scripture where Paul the writer of most of the New Testament mentions people burning in Gehenna for billions and trillions of years of endless torment. IMMORTALITY IS SOMETHING ONLY PROMISED TO THE RIGHTEOUS. 6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Immortality is defined in verse 7 as eternal life. The wicked will not see life but rather the wrath of God in their destruction.
Hey guys what is OUTER DARKNESS? The MIST OF DARKNESS in the scripture? Did you read my post about it? How does something as brilliant as an enormous lake of fire come to be called "outer darkness"?
moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46 Quote: The scriptures mean what they say, you are just putting them together wrong. But I'm not "spiritualizing" anything. Thats always the cop-out when people run out of arguments. Well, whether it is you or your buddy, spiritualizing the word is what is taking place. Denying that the spiritualizing of the word is taking place is either blindness on your part or a willful lack of discernment. HaHaHa.. I expected that. Next will come the accusation of being deceived by demons. Just as Brother Freeman's message and faith evolved through the years, so has mine, and so should every true believer be open to deeper understanding. This is not a deception, but an evolution of understanding... God's justice does not need or get satisfaction from the sizzling bodies of tormented people in hell for eternity. moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46 You'll need only to satisfy yourself as far as your opinion on whether or not I've "run out of arguments", but if your mind isn't completely closed you might consider that a lack of response to you and your cohort is not a result of a lack of an argument, but rather a lack of interest in what some consider a worthless position defended by persons who aren't likely to change. As a wise man once said, "it is like bailing the ocean out with a spoon", certainly not something I want to attempt. The lack of response is due to the fact that this board is a "howdy Doody" board for former FA folk. From some of the responses I can see that not many here are deep in the Word. A few know how to use a concordance, and a couple might even know some greek and hebrew. Its funny though that you call Mike my "buddy" and my "cohort", because we somewhat agree on this issue. moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46 Ditto that for the oneness manifesto thread. I haven't weighed in on that on yet, but we are probably in agreement there. One God with three separate manifestations... is that how you take it? Me too. See, I am not totally posessed by demons. lol
Quote: moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46 Quote: Quote: Derick Quote: The scriptures mean what they say, you are just putting them together wrong. But I'm not "spiritualizing" anything. Thats always the cop-out when people run out of arguments. Well, whether it is you or your buddy, spiritualizing the word is what is taking place. Denying that the spiritualizing of the word is taking place is either blindness on your part or a willful lack of discernment. HaHaHa.. I expected that. Next will come the accusation of being deceived by demons. Just as Brother Freeman's message and faith evolved through the years, so has mine, and so should every true believer be open to deeper understanding. This is not a deception, but an evolution of understanding... God's justice does not need or get satisfaction from the sizzling bodies of tormented people in hell for eternity. I did not refer to your position as "a deception" (although that may be the case) I referred to your inability to see that your side is involved in spiritualizing the word. Think about this... if God intends to "eternally punish" those who reject His Son (set aside for a moment the spiritualizing of the concept of eternal punishment and view it in its traditional sense), could you tell me how He would go about expressing the concept? Can you do it without using words like "forever and ever", "eternal punishment", "everlasting fire", etc.? If you were going to reveal the doctrine of eternal punishment (in its traditional sense) how would you do it, apart from the language used? He does it using expressions that stretch the limits of our comprehension. If the doctrine is true, how could it be expressed better? The only way one can disprove the doctrine is by removing the power of the expressive language used. You do that by saying that the words used don't mean what they say, you do it by castrating the plain meaning of the expressions, you do it by spiritualizing the passages that don't fit your conclusion, you do it by mocking the notion that God might actually punish eternally (again, I know of no other words to use to express this awesome concept) those who reject Him. You do it by separating the idea that Satan might be worthy of such a reward; he's different from us, he's "supernatural" (along with his partners in crime)! Finally, you do it in the same way your buddy eviscerates the power of the plain meaning of the word in his oneness manifesto, and then you have the gall to lay the onus of defending the plain teaching of scripture on us???? Snidely insinuating that your position is one that can only be reached by much prayer and fasting and then when one declines the offer to answer a fool according to his folly, you attribute this to shallowness? Give me a break. Quote: The lack of response is due to the fact that this board is a "howdy Doody" board for former FA folk. From some of the responses I can see that not many here are deep in the Word. A few know how to use a concordance, and a couple might even know some greek and hebrew. Wow, such a resume you must bring to the table! We are dumb lambs just waiting for such a one as you (and your would be disciple) to wow us with your impressive skills on telling us the real meaning behind the words that we've been misusing all of our lives. I knew we had an awesome intellect in our midst when you wrote on the chalkboard: Quote: You don't have too many options though. Either: 1. God does not judge sin(which we know is untrue). 2. God punishes sin eternally(which just ain't right). {Boy, this one highlights the fact that we have greatness in our midst!—William} 3. God punishes sin once(which fits His nature). And who can forget the awesome wisdom displayed by this deep wonder worker: Quote: Cut and Paste Word Technicians often get in trouble using the letter(Strong's numbers) rather than the Spirit(The deeper meaning of the author). My suggestion: Shake the dust off of your feet cause we aren't buying your dribble! William
moulder wrote on Tue, 20 November 2007 08:57 Snidely insinuating that your position is one that can only be reached by much prayer and fasting and then when one declines the offer to answer a fool according to his folly, you attribute this to shallowness? Give me a break. Wow... now I'm a fool. Great administration there Brother. Does anyone who disagrees with your doctrinal stance get to be included in the fool catagory? moulder wrote on Tue, 20 November 2007 08:57 Wow, such a resume you must bring to the table! We are dumb lambs just waiting for such a one as you (and your would be disciple) to wow us with your impressive skills on telling us the real meaning behind the words that we've been misusing all of our lives. I share my opinion about the Word just as you do, but I don't have to insult you to do it. I never bragged about my skill in the Word, just made the observation that there are few theologians here. Apparently I hit a nerve. moulder wrote on Tue, 20 November 2007 08:57 My suggestion: Shake the dust off of your feet cause we aren't buying your dribble! William Is that your way of inviting me to leave? I guess any other interpretation of scripture is "dribble". I've met and dealt with religious inflexibility my whole life. I never consider anyones position as "dribble", as there is always a good reason for what they believe. Many times they are too invested to consider other opinions. They have a reputation to uphold, or worry about what others would think if they entertained anything other than the hard line they have been holding. As to your petty insults, they mean nothing. God bless you brother.
Quote: Wow... now I'm a fool. Great administration there Brother. Does anyone who disagrees with your doctrinal stance get to be included in the fool catagory? You have stated your "doctrinal stance" and I've pretty much let you and the other one go on and on... I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with my position. I do have a problem when one comes with an "air of superiority" and insinuates things that are designed to "bait" the other side into arguing something that they have no desire to debate and then, from the lack of response, conclude that 1) There is no scriptural response, and 2) The other position lacks sufficient mental acumen to do anything more than cut and paste a few definitions from Strong's. The "superior" attitude displayed is what I find sickening. I have attempted to show that your/his spiritualizing of the words and concepts of the argument might be the reason for the lack of interest in debating the issue--something you fail to realize. Also worthy of note is the fact that you tell us (again, with the superior air of authority) that it is nigh impossible for us to perceive the the gnostic qualities of your position without first spending a few years on the backside of a desert agonizing over this "deep" revelation, which by the way might still be incomprehensible to those who prefer the romper-room atmosphere of this "howdy doody" forum over against deep theological thinking. Personally, I find it difficult to get excited (or even interested) about getting into a contest with an opponent that already has a pretty big spot on the front of their pants. So don't mistake my position by concluding that it is based upon the lack of merit in your argument, it's not, it is based upon the shoddy way you have chosen to present your case. For all I know, Hombre and the others may actually hold to the same doctrine... if they do, I'll be happy to discuss it with them, *unless* they attempt to brandish the same tendencies that you and Michael have displayed, i.e. spiritualizing the words and demeaning your opposition (medicine that you don’t seem to be able to take). Quote: I share my opinion about the Word just as you do, but I don't have to insult you to do it. I never bragged about my skill in the Word, just made the observation that there are few theologians here. Apparently I hit a nerve. You haven't??? Maybe then it was the years of prayer, study, and agonizing that caused me to go outside and puke, but whatever the reason, be clear that it is the condescending tone that struck the nerve. I'm no theologian, I've not hidden my meager academic achievements, but understand one thing Mr. Rogers, I can read, and your posts drip with the condescending attitude of one who thinks he has arrived at a superior understanding and that my friend is what you have obviously taken away from your association with Faith Assembly. Quote: Is that your way of inviting me to leave? I guess any other interpretation of scripture is "dribble". Wrong again. See my statement above for the answer to the source of the wet spot (it grows larger with each of your posts). Quote: I've met and dealt with religious inflexibility my whole life. I never consider anyones position as "dribble", as there is always a good reason for what they believe. Many times they are too invested to consider other opinions. They have a reputation to uphold, or worry about what others would think if they entertained anything other than the hard line they have been holding. As to your petty insults, they mean nothing. God bless you brother. Hear me once again, the argument about annihilation *IS NOT THE ISSUE* it is your/his presentation of that position that I have a problem with and the "inflexibility" of your (and Michael's) closed-superior-mind is the source of the vomit that you are seeing. So there. Go, stay, I don't care, but please, if you want to be credible, quit trying to bait us with the notion that the reason for the lack of responsiveness is due to a lack of spiritual maturity and/or lack of sufficient "agonizing" over the issue, and/or because we need to have it "revealed" to us by some gnostic teacher with wet pants. William
Molder said: For all I know, Hombre and the others may actually hold to the same doctrine... if they do, I'll be happy to discuss it with them, *unless* they attempt to brandish the same tendencies that you and Michael have displayed, i.e. spiritualizing the words and demeaning your opposition (medicine that you don’t seem to be able to take). Me: As to spiritualizing the word I wont argue about it. The word is spiritually discerned. As to DEMEANING MY OPPOSITION can you give an example of this? I have been called various names here myself.
I'm sorry I lumped you into that statement when only half of it applied. William
Derick, I gave you some scripture that settled it for me, but you never responded. I stated Matt 25 mentions "eternal fire." Your reponse was directed to "eternal punishment" by stating that punishment meant that sinners ceased to exist. Your explanation still does not hold water to Jesus words describing an "eternal fire." Since you keep asking for more scripture (as if one time from the mouth of Jesus isn't enough), the following are a few more "holes in your bucket"... Matt 18:8 - "eternal fire" Matt 3:12 - "Unquenchable fire" Mark 9:43,45 - "fire that shall not be quenched." Mark 9:44,46,48 - "where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Luke 3:17 - "fire unquenchable" Jude 7 - "suffering the vengence of eternal fire." I'm sure that I could come up with more scripture than the ones above, but I think I have provided more than enough to satisfy your request. Also, you'll have to excuse Moulder's behavior. He hasn't had his meds today, and he tends to get really worked up when people try to spiritualize the Word of God rather than take the scriptures literally. Unfortunately, he has had to double up on his prescription lately due to recent discussions. I'm just thankful that Hombre hasn't made it to this board yet, because he REALLY takes it personal! Duncan
Quote: Also, you'll have to excuse Moulder's behavior. He hasn't had his meds today, and he tends to get really worked up when people try to spiritualize the Word of God rather than take the scriptures literally. Unfortunately, he has had to double up on his prescription lately due to recent discussions. I'm just thankful that Hombre hasn't made it to this board yet, because he REALLY takes it personal! <grin>
Besides, the institution only gives us a limited amount of time on the internet... I'll be getting out soon though! <grin>
Duncan wrote on Tue, 20 November 2007 12:15 Derick, I gave you some scripture that settled it for me, but you never responded. I stated Matt 25 mentions "eternal fire." Your reponse was directed to "eternal punishment" by stating that punishment meant that sinners ceased to exist. Your explanation still does not hold water to Jesus words describing an "eternal fire." Since you keep asking for more scripture (as if one time from the mouth of Jesus isn't enough), the following are a few more "holes in your bucket"... Matt 18:8 - "eternal fire" Matt 3:12 - "Unquenchable fire" Mark 9:43,45 - "fire that shall not be quenched." Mark 9:44,46,48 - "where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Luke 3:17 - "fire unquenchable" Jude 7 - "suffering the vengence of eternal fire." I'm sure that I could come up with more scripture than the ones above, but I think I have provided more than enough to satisfy your request. Also, you'll have to excuse Moulder's behavior. He hasn't had his meds today, and he tends to get really worked up when people try to spiritualize the Word of God rather than take the scriptures literally. Unfortunately, he has had to double up on his prescription lately due to recent discussions. I'm just thankful that Hombre hasn't made it to this board yet, because he REALLY takes it personal! Duncan I addressed the "unquenchable fire" in my study. Let us look at the phrase FIRE SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED in biblical context. But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day and not to bear a burden even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof and it shall DEVOUR the palaces of Jerusalem and IT SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED. Jer.17:27 The Chaldeans came and burned the city. Jer.39:8 Is that unquenchable FIRE still burning today? The FIRE THAT SHALL NOT BE QUENCED means NOTHING can put it out. But when it finishes the job GOD gives it to do it will go out of itself.
Michael, That's all well and good when you talking about the word in Hebrew, which refers to a fire on a wick that is extinguished. The Greek word used by Jesus means something totally different. It means "perpetual." To me, that doesn't sound like something that "goes out by itself." (As an aside, the Greek word is "Asbestos." I didn't know that and thought it was pretty cool). You'll have to do better than that if you're going to convince me. Let me say for both you and Derick, that I would love nothing more than for both of you to be right. It would make me feel a lot better for all the sinners that came and went in my life that I never witnessed to. If they're just going to be burnt to a crisp, then their punishment will be over pretty quick. As such, I don't see it as any big deal. They won't have to deal with it for very long. It's kind of like the spankings I used to get as a child. Some things were so fun that it was worth getting a quick, hard spanking that was over in a short time. Duncan
Duncan wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 08:44 Michael, That's all well and good when you talking about the word in Hebrew, which refers to a fire on a wick that is extinguished. The Greek word used by Jesus means something totally different. It means "perpetual." To me, that doesn't sound like something that "goes out by itself." (As an aside, the Greek word is "Asbestos." I didn't know that and thought it was pretty cool). You'll have to do better than that if you're going to convince me. Let me say for both you and Derick, that I would love nothing more than for both of you to be right. It would make me feel a lot better for all the sinners that came and went in my life that I never witnessed to. If they're just going to be burnt to a crisp, then their punishment will be over pretty quick. As such, I don't see it as any big deal. They won't have to deal with it for very long. It's kind of like the spankings I used to get as a child. Some things were so fun that it was worth getting a quick, hard spanking that was over in a short time. Thats the ticket Brother. Why would The Heavenly Father need to be more violent in his discipline than your Earthly Father? Is He not slow to anger and gracious in His mercy? Its not that Eternal Death is easier to believe than Eternal Torment, as they both require the same amount of faith, its just that it makes more sense when you look at the revelation as a whole, instead of trying to force an interpretation. BTW the King James translators were heavily influenced by the Roman Catholic ideas of torment and torture which they picked up in the middle ages... you know all those paintings of little red demons with horns poking humans and throwing them on fires, etc. How ridiculous.
Derick, I agree that the KJV has some interpretation issues, that is why I always go back to the Greek and Hebrew. As for faith in either position, I don't see that it requires the same amount of faith. Finally, as an answer on why would my Heavenly Father be more "violent" than my earthly father: My earthly father is not perfect. I got spanked for things that I didn't do, and I didn't receive enough punishment for some things that I did that were really horrible. Back to my original point - If the only thing a sinner has to fear is a big "poof" and he's up in smoke, that wouldn't be much of a reason to give up what he considered a "fun" lifestyle. The fact that Jesus warned of "eternal fire" is what should get his attention as much as "eternal life." (Again, the exact same Greek word.) Duncan
Duncan wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 11:25 Derick, I agree that the KJV has some interpretation issues, that is why I always go back to the Greek and Hebrew. As for faith in either position, I don't see that it requires the same amount of faith. Sure it does. It takes the same faith to believe the doctors will heal you rather than God, but its easier to believe the doctors, because thats how we have been taught. Similarly, we have all been taught the lie of the "Cosmic Slow Cooker of God", so its easier to believe that than anything else. Duncan wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 11:25 Finally, as an answer on why would my Heavenly Father be more "violent" than my earthly father: My earthly father is not perfect. I got spanked for things that I didn't do, and I didn't receive enough punishment for some things that I did that were really horrible. Yes but your dad did not beat you to death, and then keep beating your dead, lifeless body for years and years. Would your Heavenly Dad do that? Duncan wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 11:25 Back to my original point - If the only thing a sinner has to fear is a big "poof" and he's up in smoke, that wouldn't be much of a reason to give up what he considered a "fun" lifestyle. The fact that Jesus warned of "eternal fire" is what should get his attention as much as "eternal life." (Again, the exact same Greek word.) κόλασις αἰώνιος rendered "everlasting punishment" may be more properly be rendered as "the punishment of the age or aeon", or a "time-specific judgement" other than the time in which Christ is speaking. The word αἰώνιος has been miconstrued as "time-linear", when it does not mean that at all. It has several shades of meaning, and must be interpreted "in context". Eternal Life does not mean a million, billion years, or any *length* of time at all. As I said in another thread, I leave now and will revisit the forum in a few days. Thank you for the interesting debate Duncan, I probably knew your family during my time at FA. Its nice to know you are doing well. Regards, Derick
Duncan wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 08:44 Michael, That's all well and good when you talking about the word in Hebrew, which refers to a fire on a wick that is extinguished. The Greek word used by Jesus means something totally different. It means "perpetual." To me, that doesn't sound like something that "goes out by itself." (As an aside, the Greek word is "Asbestos." I didn't know that and thought it was pretty cool). You'll have to do better than that if you're going to convince me. Let me say for both you and Derick, that I would love nothing more than for both of you to be right. It would make me feel a lot better for all the sinners that came and went in my life that I never witnessed to. If they're just going to be burnt to a crisp, then their punishment will be over pretty quick. As such, I don't see it as any big deal. They won't have to deal with it for very long. It's kind of like the spankings I used to get as a child. Some things were so fun that it was worth getting a quick, hard spanking that was over in a short time. Duncan Hi Duncan, I think I see where some of your problem is on understanding doctrine. You had said on the Oneness thread you read Matt. 28 and that alone was enough to know that you were right. Now in this discussion you are saying if nothing else the term "eternal" fire convinces you annihilation is wrong. Both of these doctrines contain MUCH INFORMATION. You cannot just focus on one scripture or one word in the midst of MUCH INFO and not examine the REST. Take this for instance. You say because the fire is eternal thats the end of the story. But if we can just focus on and stand on one word of scripture to support our belief how about this? 16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 What does PERISH mean? According to Strongs #622 it means to FULLY DESTROY. The word perish does not mean to have immortality-eternal life. It means the opposite. So on the basis of the fact Jesus said we have to believe on him or PERISH how can we teach that sinners that DONT BELIEVE will have eternal life after all? True life in Gehenna would not be much of a life but nonetheless it would be life. Yet the Lord and his disciples did not teach the lost would have eternal life but rather would PERISH or DIE. As stated earlier I did not change my belief about eternal life in Hell out of sympathy for sinners but rather because the case for it in scripture was to powerful to resist. Also since ONE WORD such as eternal fire can end an arguement about doctrine how about Gehenna itself? Obviously Yeshua never even heard the word "hell". When he spoke of sinners being cast into FIRE he called that Gehenna. We know where Gehenna comes from and what it was. One strong factor about the doctrine of eternal destruction is we can pin point the doctrine in the Old Testament. Isaiah 66 and Malachi 4 both are refernces Yeshua used when teaching about the judgment. Both of them indicate the DEATH of sinners. Putting that with the fact Yeshua taught the SOUL (not just the body) would be destroyed is a good connection. Yet if Yeshua were teaching about a place called "hell" there is no reference to it in the OT. It goes like this: Isaiah 66-Malachi 4 being connected in the Hebrew mindset to the ever burning fires coming up from the garbage dump outside the city called GEHENNA. This is how the doctrine of eternal punishment is brought forth by Yeshua. Those cast into GEHENNA suffer the SECOND DEATH. The first death ALL DIE including Christians. The second death is eternal. No coming back. Having no part in the glorious Kingdom of Yeshua made up of immortal beings who have overcome in this life. But as concerning the phrase "eternal fire" if Yeshua wants the fire to burn eternally as a sign of his wrath that would not change the fact the wicked will PERISH.
The many references in the Bible to 'eternal' punishment make it obvious that it will NEVER end. The sinner is dead even while he/she lives, but they're still alive. So the 'second death' does not mean the end of the sinner. Denying eternal punishment sounds too much like the cults, JW's, Adventists, Mormons, etc. God drowned nearly everyone on earth. Why would He not punish for eternity? He burned Sodom to a crisp. He cannot change. As has been mentioned before, in MT 25, if you believe eternal life means 'eternal', then it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to deny eternal punishment in fire. It's the same Greek word folks used in both cases. God is merciful, but when His mercy ends for someone LOOKOUT! Just read Revelation. God is going to punish His enemies and it will continue forever. Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hey Dewayne, Its easy to make a few general statements. I wonder if you read what I have written on the subject?
I wonder if you read what I wrote. If you believe eternal life never ends then you MUST believe that eternal punishment NEVER ends too.
Its obvious you did not read the straight to the point study I provided. I was the same way for the first 16 years of my walk. Opposing something I had never studied another side of. My first day of actually studying the link between the doctrine of eternal destruction in the Tanach and the New Testament I was amazed at the force of this truth in scripture. The weight of scripture brought me into this light.
So you must believe that 'eternal life' will end too. It's the EXACT same Greek word. Or perhaps you think Jesus is confused.
William, As I went back through this old thread and read it,(yeah, well, there's worse things to spend time doing... ) it becomes apparent to me that the charges by your critics are unjustified. One of the biggest points of contention that I heard spouted when the call to abandon ship went out, was how you didn't stand up to the 'oneness doctrine' and others like it; this thread proves them wrong...you did everything you could to defend sound doctrine without actually attacking individuals.(unlike those who opposed your administration of this forum) This thread has you opposing these teachings before the 'heresy hunter' jumped on the bandwagon. I see where you repeatedly refuted with scripture and sound interpretation the two guys who were pushing false teachings and error. I just wanted to say that I am impressed with your restraint in dealing with false accusations, it reflects well on your teacher...no, not him, HIM.<grin> james
You are in error as to what soul is. It is body and spirit together which is a soul. The spirit cannot die, only the physical body. They get a resurection body as everyone does. However theirs spends eternity in the punishment part of sheol and then in the lake of fire after the Great white throne judgement. 24 “ And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” Matthew 25:46 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Both groups are awake and aware for eternity!) And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where ‘ Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’[a] Revelation 14:11 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Are you a Jehovah's Witness? If you are then this is why you believe annihilation. Denying the deity of Christ, as they do, is heresy and leads to more error and eternal punishment. If you are not then you need deliverance from a deceiving spirit.