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description: Fast Uncompromising Discussions.
items: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
items: Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.

BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Big Errors: The Bride. I believe, that many people have been wrongly taught that the Body of Christ is also the `Bride` of Christ. I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways. `Men, come to Jesus and be His bride!` That is quite wrong! There is NO scripture that tells us that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of Christ. No Scripture. People say, `It means purity.` We can say purity but NOT that men have to be female, a bride, especially in this season of LGTB. There are 2 scriptures that people use to wrongly make this doctrine. 1.Eph. 5: 25 - 33. This scripture is after 4 chapters where the apostle Paul has laid out the doctrine of the Body of Christ, the New MAN. Then in chapter 5 Paul starts to exhort children, wives and husbands. He encourages the husbands to love their wives as Christ does His BODY. It is an exhortation. 2.In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3 the Apostle Paul is speaking specifically to his disciples in Corinth and saying that he wants to present them to the Lord, in purity, like a virgin. This is just a symbol, and just for his disciples. Paul does NOT present us to the Lord for it is the Lord Himself who will present us. (Jude 24) So who is the `Bride?` God`s word tells us that Israel is the Bride. `For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of hosts...for the Lord has called you like a wife forsaken....` (Isa. 54: 5 & 6) `I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, in loving kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 3: 19 & 20) Why is it important? There are different inheritances for Israel, (the Bride) and the Body of Christ, (the New Man). `Let no one cheat you or your reward......and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the BODY, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increa…
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-16T23:51:45-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: So there are no men in Israel? (His wife?) William
creator: william
date: 2019-12-17T02:54:33-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi William, Good point which needs looking at. Speaking to Israel God says - `For your Maker is your husband the LORD of hosts is His name...` (Isa. 54: 5) Husband - Hebrew word `ba`al,` meaning a master, husband, (fig) owner . We know that God is the owner, master of Israel. When they were unfaithful God `divorced` them, signifying that they were unfaithful to Him and had gone after other gods. (Jer. 3:8) Finally we know that God will `marry` His unfaithful `wife` when the Lord connects again with them. `Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7)
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-17T05:13:18-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Yes, it is a good point, but I don't think you grasp it yet. You say:Quote: I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways. `Men, come to Jesus and be His bride!` That is quite wrong! You continue:Quote: There is NO scripture that tells us that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of Christ. No Scripture. People say, `It means purity.` We can say purity but NOT that men have to be female, a bride, especially in this season of LGTB. Quote: 2.In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3 the Apostle Paul is speaking specifically to his disciples in Corinth and saying that he wants to present them to the Lord, in purity, like a virgin. This is just a symbol, and just for his disciples. I don't know why you don't just quote the verse before you tell us that it's "just a symbol" and "just for his [Paul's Corinthian] disciples"; here is what Paul said: [2Co 11:2 KJV] 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ. I suspect that you didn't quote it for a number of reasons: 1.) It sounds suspiciously like Paul is calling them a "bride" which is diametrically opposed to your premise--"Big Errors: The Bride." 2.) You contradict yourself by allowing that this verse/phrase is "just a symbol" while at the same time arguing for a strict literal sense for the term "bride" which you infer--cannot be a symbol--because otherwise men would have to be female! 3.) You then, when offering your 'proof,' take Isa 54:5 & 6, and substitute the word "bride" for "wife." You say: Quote: God`s word tells us that Israel is the Bride. 'For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of hosts...for the Lord has called you like a wife forsaken....' (Isa. 54: 5 & 6) Looks like Israel's 'husband' is the Lord (our creator!), or put another way, Israel is God's wife not His bride. Yes, I am aware of t…
creator: william
date: 2019-12-17T10:49:50-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Btw, on a personal and positive note, I really appreciate this style over and against your other way of posting. You let us know right up front what your premise was without ambiguity. Others might like your other style--and that's okay too--but I like the way you did it here! Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2019-12-17T11:00:08-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: william wrote on Tue, 17 December 2019 11:00 Btw, on a personal and positive note, I really appreciate this style over and against your other way of posting. You let us know right up front what your premise was without ambiguity. Others might like your other style--and that's okay too--but I like the way you did it here! Blessings, William Thanks William, The other topic I presented in more a `let`s share what we know about this.`For this topic I have to present what I believe against another teaching. Good to discuss with you. Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-17T22:37:45-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi William, Yes I should have quoted the scripture so people can read it without having to look it up. No underlying motive there. You said - 1.) It sounds suspiciously like Paul is calling them a "bride" which is diametrically opposed to your premise--"Big Errors: The Bride." `For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.` (2 Cor. 11: 2) The Apostle Paul is talking specifically to his disciples and desiring to present them to the Lord, pure. We know that the apostle Paul does NOT present us to the Lord, but the Lord Himself does. `Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and TO PRESENT YOU faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.` (Jude 24) There are scriptures that specifically refer to people and NOT to us. Eg. `Now I will come to you when I pass through Macedonia...` (1 Cor. 16: 5) There are truths in God`s word for us however it is NOT all about us. We read of what God says to others and what people say to each other. We can learn truths but we do not say it is written about us. Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-17T23:42:23-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: You said - 2.) You contradict yourself by allowing that this verse/phrase is "just a symbol" while at the same time arguing for a strict literal sense for the term "bride" which you infer--cannot be a symbol--because otherwise men would have to be female! I agree the term `bride` is a symbol.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-17T23:43:56-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: You said - 3.) You then, when offering your 'proof,' take Isa 54:5 & 6, and substitute the word "bride" for "wife." Yes I did. Thank you William. I should have elaborated more on that. So....God calls Israel `like a youthful wife...` and He their `husband,` their owner, master. God tells them of their future. `"Do not fear, for you will not be ashamed; neither disgraced, for you will not be put to shame; for you will forget the shame of your youth, and will not remember your widowhood anymore. For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth. For the Lord has called you like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, like a youthful wife when you were refused," says your God.` (Isa. 54: 4 - 6) Meanwhile Israel is unfaithful, so God says in pictorial language that He `divorces` her. ` Then I saw that for all the causes for backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce;...`(Jer. 3:8) Then we read of God saying that He will again connect, (symbolically marry) Israel, the `wife.` `the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7) This is when the Lord returns in power and great glory, revealing Himself to Israel. `Now I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse. And he who sat on him was called faithful and true, and in righteousness He judges and makes war......and on His robe and on His thigh a name written; King of kings and Lord of lords.` (Rev. 19: 11 & 16) It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced....` (Zech. 12: 9 & 10)
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-17T23:46:13-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: You said - 4.) In your zeal to prove your premise, are you actually willing to go so far as to remove Paul's teachings from a place of relevance to the Body of Christ? Two scriptures, one, an exhortation and the other to specific people, do NOT a doctrine make.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-17T23:47:39-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: You said - By contorting the scripture to make your premise seem valid, you seem to miss an obvious conclusion to your reasoning--if we are the Body of Christ THEN WE ARE THE FUTURE HUSBAND OF ISRAEL! The Lord has many titles, some referring to Israel and some to the Body of Christ. Israel - King of Israel, Lamb, Bridegroom. Made them a nation with one King and many priests. Body of Christ - Head of the Body. Making us Kingpriests.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-17T23:49:18-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: You said - Actually, Israel is always referred to as His wife, not His bride (unless we accept your premise which has yet to be proved.) What with all of the Israel/wife references (idolatry, etc.) in the OT, in what way would she be considered a virgin? `This is the word which the Lord has spoken concerning him: "The virgin, daughter of Zion, has despised you..." (Isa. 37: 22) `Therefore thus says the LORD: "Ask now among the Gentiles, who has heard such things? The virgin of Israel has done a very horrible thing...."` (Jer. 18: 13)
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-17T23:51:09-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Quote: There are scriptures that specifically refer to people and NOT to us. Eg. `Now I will come to you when I pass through Macedonia...` (1 Cor. 16: 5) There are truths in God`s word for us however it is NOT all about us. We read of what God says to others and what people say to each other. We can learn truths but we do not say it is written about us. Quote: Why is it important? There are different inheritances for Israel, (the Bride) and the Body of Christ, (the New Man). In your first note, to establish your teaching ("BIG ERRORS: The Bride") you gave us three points: 1.) "Bride" Shouldn't be used to describe males. 2.) "Bride of Christ" doesn't mean "the Body of Christ", and Paul isn't talking to us, only his disciples in Corinth. 3.) Israel is the Bride. Point one was eliminated with one question (So there are no men in Israel?). And even though you didn't concede the point you indicated that it needs further examination. Point two was presented with a curious caveat--Paul was just referring to his disciples in Corinth. Divining your interpretative methodology is going to be tough since almost all of Scripture can be explained away if one simply uses the 'Now I will come to you when I pass through Macedonia' argument. Just so you know, my interpretative methodology--taking literally the normal grammatical/historical sense of Scripture--knows instinctively that I'm not going to get a visit from Paul EVEN IF I MOVE TO MACEDONIA! But I don't know your interpretative methodology especially since you constantly are coming up with things that don't fit the normal/grammatical sense of Scripture. Normal--means that you automatically recognize simile, metaphorical, symbols, allegory, etc.,--in the grammatical and historical context where they occur. The Bible uses a bunch of terms for believers and while all are true you wouldn't normally use "children" (as in "children of God" or "children of Israel") when describing God's "bride" or "wife." It doesn't mean that both …
creator: william
date: 2019-12-19T09:54:29-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi William, Thank you for taking the time, (a lot) to address what you see, and give your thoughts. I did have a chuckle at you saying we are both `spinning our wheels.` That, I think shows that we both love the truth and are willing to spend time to lay out what we think is true and what we see as error. Now some detail - You said I was saying - 1.) "Bride" Shouldn't be used to describe males. My first point was not as you stated for I said - `I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways.` I don`t think women should either. Be called `the bride.` You have misinterpreted my point.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-20T21:07:30-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: You said I was saying -2.) "Bride of Christ" doesn't mean "the Body of Christ", and Paul isn't talking to us, only his disciples in Corinth. Just so you know, my interpretative methodology--taking literally the normal grammatical/historical sense of Scripture--knows instinctively that I'm not going to get a visit from Paul EVEN IF I MOVE TO MACEDONIA! But I don't know your interpretative methodology especially since you constantly are coming up with things that don't fit the normal/grammatical sense of Scripture. Normal--means that you automatically recognize simile, metaphorical, symbols, allegory, etc.,--in the grammatical and historical context where they occur. That is a generalisation William with no details. Also every Bible College student is taught - `Who is speaking to whom,` as a basic principle of Biblical interpretation as well as a basic in language. All of God`s word as we well know is written to different people & groups, over the centuries. It is not written first to us. However it is FOR us to read and learn of God`s purpose through Christ.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-20T21:09:26-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Now to all your terms. Most of those are regarding life on earth. However I do notice that the word `Queen` is not there. If we are supposed to be the `Bride of Christ` and marry the King, then wouldn`t we then be the Queen of heaven? But then we have been told we are KingPriests. Also God`s word says there is no marrying in heaven. `Jesus answered and said to them, " Are you not therefore mistaken because you do not now the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven.` (Mark 12: 24 & 25)
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-20T21:11:16-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: You said - Then, when faced with an obvious problem to your premise you attempt to get ahead of it by saying that the "Body of Christ" cannot be the "Bride," or, as stated in the Eph 5:25ff passage--likened to the "wife"--presumably, for some yet-unstated-interpretive-method-known-only-to-yourself, principle. One of the basic interpretive Principles is `Who is speaking to whom.` Also we know when something is doctrinal and when something is an `exhortation,` - to encourage, and to warn. All of Eph. 5 & 6 is an exhortation, encouragement and warning to the Body of Christ, to wives, to husbands, to children, & to bondservants & masters. Quite explanatory as you read.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-20T21:12:22-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: You said - Your last point: Israel is the Bride. Here you make an assumption that "wife" means "bride" and use a "wife" passage to prove that Israel is a "bride". Guess what? In some contexts this is perfectly okay to do (see my argument above) but you, trying to use my methodology, are now faced with a dilemma. What is it, you may ask? I say--There is NO scripture that tells us that ISRAEL is also the "Bride" of Christ. No Scripture. I never said there was a scripture that said Israel is the Bride of Christ. I said Israel is the bride. These scriptures may help you - "As I live" says the Lord, "You (Israel) shall surely clothe yourselves with them all (sons) as an ornament on you as a bride.` (Isa. 49: 18) `Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7) Here we see that there is a marriage and a `wife` is marrying the Lamb. Thus to marry one is called a bride. Some interpretations actually say `bride.`
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-20T21:13:56-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi William, You said - I know that "all scripture" is for "doctrine" "teaching" "reproof" etc., but why is this one doctrine so important to you? Thank you for asking that question - `Why is it so important to me?` I believe it is important to God for Him to share what His grand purpose is in Christ - `God...having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both of which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him.` (Eph. 1: 9 & 10) We get so focused on `my ticket` to heaven, (so to speak) that we don`t appreciate what God has revealed about His Son, and His (the Father`s) purpose in Christ. (In Summary) God the Father desires that His Son rule visibly in the highest realm with His Body. (Ps. 2: 6)They have been promised to sit with the Lord on His throne. (Rev. 3: 21) Other realms have other rulerships under Christ. As we study God`s word concerning Christ overcoming all rule and authority and He being the only one Worthy to rule over all God`s kingdom, then our spirits are enlarged and we give Him all the honour, the glory, and appreciation now and forever.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-20T21:16:04-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: I agree with you. Everything that is written is important... I just don't understand the importance you are placing on separating the inheritances. Even the passage you quote in your last note contradicts the very idea that you seem to be intent on promoting. You quote Eph 1:9-10, but fail to notice the very next verse/s where Paul (Israelite among Israelites) includes himself along with the gentiles at Ephesus, as a fellow heir of this wonderful inheritance! Quote: [Eph 1:9-11 KJV] 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Why is it so important to you to correct him (Paul) to make the point that as an Israelite his inheritance is different from our (the gentile) inheritance? Maybe in your eyes Paul is only talking to a few Jews that may be in Ephesus and not the rest of the Greek gentiles that are in the assembly? All Scripture is important (as I said) for doctrine, correction, reproof, etc., and to me this very passage of Scripture stands as a correction and reproof to what you are saying in your doctrine. William
creator: william
date: 2019-12-20T21:41:08-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi William, I`m not sure where you get the idea that I don`t include the Jewish believers in the Body of Christ and its inheritance? Also `my doctrine?` I just posted scripture on what God says His purpose through Christ was. Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-20T22:21:08-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Fri, 20 December 2019 21:07 Hi William, Thank you for taking the time, (a lot) to address what you see, and give your thoughts. I did have a chuckle at you saying we are both `spinning our wheels.` That, I think shows that we both love the truth and are willing to spend time to lay out what we think is true and what we see as error. Now some detail - You said I was saying - 1.) "Bride" Shouldn't be used to describe males. My first point was not as you stated for I said - `I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways.` I don`t think women should either. Be called `the bride.` You have misinterpreted my point. Quote: My first point was not as you stated for I said - `I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways.` I don`t think women should either. Be called `the bride.` You have misinterpreted my point. True, you did, but I didn't misinterpret your meaning and gave my answer (er, question) accordingly. Quote: You said I was saying -2.) "Bride of Christ" doesn't mean "the Body of Christ", and Paul isn't talking to us, only his disciples in Corinth. Quote: Just so you know, my interpretative methodology--taking literally the normal grammatical/historical sense of Scripture--knows instinctively that I'm not going to get a visit from Paul EVEN IF I MOVE TO MACEDONIA! But I don't know your interpretative methodology especially since you constantly are coming up with things that don't fit the normal/grammatical sense of Scripture. Normal--means that you automatically recognize simile, metaphorical, symbols, allegory, etc.,--in the grammatical and historical context where they occur. That is a generalisation William with no details. Also every Bible College student is taught - `Who is speaking to w…
creator: william
date: 2019-12-21T01:26:19-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Fri, 20 December 2019 21:11 Now to all your terms. Most of those are regarding life on earth. However I do notice that the word `Queen` is not there. If we are supposed to be the `Bride of Christ` and marry the King, then wouldn`t we then be the Queen of heaven? But then we have been told we are KingPriests. Also God`s word says there is no marrying in heaven. `Jesus answered and said to them, " Are you not therefore mistaken because you do not now the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven.` (Mark 12: 24 & 25) This is your typical response, instead of answering the specific issues, you mock me because I didn't include certain words in my list. I didn't think of queen. I'm sure that I could come up with a lot more to add but not just any word would fit (like queen). The list was simply a list that someone could take and find examples that wouldn't be typical or literal in usage. The bible doesn't use "queen" in the sense I was speaking about so I obviously wouldn't use it. If there's no marriage in heaven what's all of the fuss about concerning the marriage supper of the lamb?
creator: william
date: 2019-12-21T01:45:07-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Fri, 20 December 2019 21:13 You said - Your last point: Israel is the Bride. Here you make an assumption that "wife" means "bride" and use a "wife" passage to prove that Israel is a "bride". Guess what? In some contexts this is perfectly okay to do (see my argument above) but you, trying to use my methodology, are now faced with a dilemma. What is it, you may ask? I say--There is NO scripture that tells us that ISRAEL is also the "Bride" of Christ. No Scripture. I never said there was a scripture that said Israel is the Bride of Christ. I said Israel is the bride. These scriptures may help you - "As I live" says the Lord, "You (Israel) shall surely clothe yourselves with them all (sons) as an ornament on you as a bride.` (Isa. 49: 18) `Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7) Here we see that there is a marriage and a `wife` is marrying the Lamb. Thus to marry one is called a bride. Some interpretations actually say `bride.` Please, I used the quote and tried to make it as much like yours as possible. Correct my quote to say: "I say--There is NO scripture that tells us that ISRAEL is the "Bride"" You apparently knew what I meant though because you supply 2 verses: Is 49:18- (actual verse KJV) [Isa 49:18 KJV] 18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, [and] come to thee. [As] I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them [on thee], as a bride [doeth]. Clearly He isn't calling them a bride here, is He? Can anyone who reads this passage (go ahead and look at the context) state that it means Israel is a bride? No, not anyone who knows English. Second verse you supplied: [Rev 19:7 KJV] 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. You might need to hold up here a moment and …
creator: william
date: 2019-12-21T02:24:40-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Fri, 20 December 2019 22:21 Hi William, I`m not sure where you get the idea that I don`t include the Jewish believers in the Body of Christ and its inheritance? Also `my doctrine?` I just posted scripture on what God says His purpose through Christ was. Marilyn. Well, is there any significance to be found in you switching the term Jewish for Israelite here? (Pardon me, I'm just a little gun-shy at the moment.) I thought we were talking about the separate inheritances of the two groups (the Church and Israel). I've been contending for the one-sheepfold that Jesus mentions and you, as far as I can tell, give a two-sheepfold solution. Your doctrine, to my mind, means your topic, which was/is "Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride." Which, by the way, you haven't given any substantiation to your contention. (I don't care whether you call it doctrine or sharing or whatever). William
creator: william
date: 2019-12-21T02:45:56-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Fri, 20 December 2019 21:11 Now to all your terms. Most of those are regarding life on earth. However I do notice that the word `Queen` is not there. If we are supposed to be the `Bride of Christ` and marry the King, then wouldn`t we then be the Queen of heaven? But then we have been told we are KingPriests. Also God`s word says there is no marrying in heaven. `Jesus answered and said to them, " Are you not therefore mistaken because you do not now the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven.` (Mark 12: 24 & 25) I did miss one thing here, you wondered about why I didn't use the term "queen" and I've already answered that but I can just as easily ask you the same question using your contention--"Israel is the bride"--wouldn't that make Israel the queen of heaven? Isn't that your contention? The whole kingpriest argument has already been beaten to death but since you seem so desperate to revive it, I should point out to others who might be interested, that it can be found here under the section Eternal Purposes--New order of beings: http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&th =930&start=0&S=3d25916c02565c3b426b4ffb4908d458 Have fun! William
creator: william
date: 2019-12-21T03:43:16-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi William, I am sorry if how I came over seemed like mocking to you. That was not my intention. Also no reason for changing Israelite to Jewish. It`s not my intention to change your mind, but to point out what I have been taught. Many people may not have heard that side. I realise you believe differently and we know that the Holy Spirit will teach us and eventually we will all know the truth. I do agree with 1 Cor. 10:11 concerning that we are warned not to do certain behaviours that were recorded of old. And I also agree that we don`t just cherry pick scriptures or discount ones, for all scripture is for us to learn from but it is NOT all ABOUT us. In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3, Paul is saying he desires to present those disciples to the Lord. I know that Paul will not present me to the Lord because the Holy Spirit through the Apostle James tells me that the Lord Himself will present me. To me that is straight forward. So summarising - I only see this teaching that the Body of Christ is also referred to as a bride, based on 2 scriptures. One is an exhortation and the other a symbol referring to Paul`s disciples. That to me does not constitute sound doctrine. Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-21T04:35:46-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Sat, 21 December 2019 04:35 Hi William, I am sorry if how I came over seemed like mocking to you. That was not my intention. Also no reason for changing Israelite to Jewish. It`s not my intention to change your mind, but to point out what I have been taught. Many people may not have heard that side. I realise you believe differently and we know that the Holy Spirit will teach us and eventually we will all know the truth. I do agree with 1 Cor. 10:11 concerning that we are warned not to do certain behaviours that were recorded of old. And I also agree that we don`t just cherry pick scriptures or discount ones, for all scripture is for us to learn from but it is NOT all ABOUT us. In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3, Paul is saying he desires to present those disciples to the Lord. I know that Paul will not present me to the Lord because the Holy Spirit through the Apostle James tells me that the Lord Himself will present me. To me that is straight forward. So summarising - I only see this teaching that the Body of Christ is also referred to as a bride, based on 2 scriptures. One is an exhortation and the other a symbol referring to Paul`s disciples. That to me does not constitute sound doctrine. Marilyn. If that is indeed the case wouldn't you just as easily say that your teaching/doctrine/sharing is based solely on zero scripture, since Israel has always been referred to as His wife? not His bride? Using your own standard would your presentation be "sound doctrine"? William
creator: william
date: 2019-12-21T04:46:17-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi William, Actually we know that the New Jerusalem is referred to AS THE BRIDE. `And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth has passed away. Also there was no sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.` (Rev. 21: 1 & 2) And God`s word tells us who will be in that city. `But now they, (Old Testament saints) desired a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16) Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-21T05:19:12-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: I was wondering when you'd get to that. Of course I don't believe that it's limited to the OT saints, but you know that already!
creator: william
date: 2019-12-21T05:33:23-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Well here we are again? So where do you see in scripture, others promised the inheritance of the city?
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-21T05:40:54-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Sat, 21 December 2019 05:40 Well here we are again? So where do you see in scripture, others promised the inheritance of the city? Well, you probably said it the best--we are Christ's Body. He's not going anywhere without us! [Luk 17:37 KJV] 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together. Seriously though, are you really unaware of the scripture passages that teach this? Okay, I'll throw out just one to get you started: [1Co 3:22-23 KJV] 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's. [emphisis mine] William
creator: william
date: 2019-12-21T17:04:55-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi William, Yes seriously. I was taught differently, so am looking to you to present what you have been taught. And what a great scripture to show our inheritance in Christ - 1 Cor. 3: 22 - 23. So where do you see we will be with the Lord on His throne? `To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21) Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-21T22:22:24-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Sat, 21 December 2019 22:22 Hi William, Yes seriously. I was taught differently, so am looking to you to present what you have been taught. And what a great scripture to show our inheritance in Christ - 1 Cor. 3: 22 - 23. So where do you see we will be with the Lord on His throne? `To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21) Marilyn. Well, I can't remember ever being taught about the inheritance. I'm sure I picked up what I know over time from different people but I don't ever remember someone saying "okay, today we are going to learn about our future inheritance in Christ". I did hear messages geared toward what we have in Christ right now, i.e. our present inheritance. I guess it was touched on in Biblical Theology but it was probably more in the context of a timeline of the end-times. (Pre-trib, pre-millennial, millennial-reign, eternal state.) I'm sure you remember when the Sons of Zebedee came to Jesus and asked Him about sitting one on the right and the other on His left hand in glory and Jesus responded to them saying: "Ye know not what ye ask..." and then went on to say that the request wasn't His to give anyway... later the other disciples ribbed James and John and Jesus interrupted them with a lesson on Gentile lordship vs true greatness. I kinda took that as a area that wasn't to dominate my thinking. Important? yes, because the Bible has things to say about it, but not so important that I should spend a lot of time with it. Later I realized that the NT writers didn't spend too much time on it either, not that it was avoided, because over and over our inheritance, in and with Christ, is mentioned, but there wasn't a lot of exact detail concerning what it would entail. Now that's just me, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone who chose to spend a lot of time with the subject. In fact, since you've brought up the subject, I've found a book, actually…
creator: william
date: 2019-12-22T00:08:32-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi William, Thank you for drawing my attention to George Peters` book. I looked up on line and got a download of a PDF from a site that gave some good information. (library.dts.edu) I see that Peters premillennial views were in conflict with the majority of his denomination, (Lutheran). This prevented him from receiving much recognition from his colleagues and lived in relative obscurity. Wittenberg College, however awarded him an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree in 1907. Again we see that those who hold to the truth often have to suffer somewhat for their beliefs. We are blessed to receive the truths passed on to us all by such godly men and women. I would also like to thank you William for the opportunity to post what I believe on your forum. I do like a healthy robust discussion, for truth needs to be vigorously discussed and presented. I know we both, as with others seek to - `Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15) As you can see I do not mind opposing views for we are all winners when the truth prevails, and I`m sure over time we all learn from each other, especially what godly men and women have taught us many years ago.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-22T04:48:46-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Now as to George Peters` book, from what I can see in the descriptions it is what we have come to know as the truth concerning the Lord`s reign in the millennium. It seems that Peters has gone meticulously throughout God`s word and to bring out scriptures relating to this great truth. No wonder the book is over 2,000 pages. A good read I imagine and very uplifting concerning the Lord, His promise to Israel & the fulfilment of that. The Lord Himself revealed this - ` Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.` (Luke 24: 25 - 27)
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-22T04:50:10-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: So onto our discussion. So where do you see we will be with the Lord on His throne? `To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21) Obvious I`m not interested (as you are not too) in who is on one side or the other, as if the Lord is sitting on a `seat.` And as you say you have not heard any teaching specifically on this topic, then may we approach it from another angle where we all can contribute, as I know many of those here are well versed in God`s word. I think the topic could be - The Pre-eminence of Christ. (Col. 1: 18) And I think I need to start another thread for that. I will go and prepare some notes and hope that some others will contribute. What better than to share and discuss of Christ, His character, His offices and His purposes. regards, Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-22T04:52:08-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Sun, 22 December 2019 04:48 Hi William, Thank you for drawing my attention to George Peters` book. I looked up on line and got a download of a PDF from a site that gave some good information. (library.dts.edu) I see that Peters premillennial views were in conflict with the majority of his denomination, (Lutheran). This prevented him from receiving much recognition from his colleagues and lived in relative obscurity. Wittenberg College, however awarded him an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree in 1907. Again we see that those who hold to the truth often have to suffer somewhat for their beliefs. We are blessed to receive the truths passed on to us all by such godly men and women. I would also like to thank you William for the opportunity to post what I believe on your forum. I do like a healthy robust discussion, for truth needs to be vigorously discussed and presented. I know we both, as with others seek to - `Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15) As you can see I do not mind opposing views for we are all winners when the truth prevails, and I`m sure over time we all learn from each other, especially what godly men and women have taught us many years ago. Ay, there's the rub... I don't hold to any doctrine that was taught no matter how respected the individual, no matter how revered the author, unless God's Word is at it's foundation and any edifice/creed/doctrine or teaching built on that foundation is an actual affirmation of His Word. That same book (so far so good) has this quote: "...for God holds us only responsible for the plain, naked, grammatical sense of the Word, and not for recondite, hidden senses that the ingenuity or imagination of man may concoct." Here is another: "Allowing a development of doctrine in the Bible itself (i.e. given in respective dispensations, and by different writers), made under the auspices of the Spirit, …
creator: william
date: 2019-12-22T06:25:11-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: ******************************* Marilyn Crow wrote on Sat, 21 December 2019 05:19 Hi William, Actually we know that the New Jerusalem is referred to AS THE BRIDE. `And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth has passed away. Also there was no sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.` (Rev. 21: 1 & 2) And God`s word tells us who will be in that city. `But now they, (Old Testament saints) desired a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16) Marilyn. You are right about the Lord showing us who will be in that city: Hebrews 11:8: By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Hebrews 11:9: By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: ****Little detour here:**** Jesus makes this interesting statement to the Jews: Matthew 3:9: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Later, Jesus says, after the Centurion (Gentile, btw) exhibits an extraordinary faith: Matthew 8:10: When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And He continues with: Matthew 8:11: And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. Then Paul gives us that wonderful news that we gentiles are heirs of the same promise! Romans 4:16: Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only whi…
creator: william
date: 2019-12-25T09:50:56-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi William, Let`s look a bit closer. `And all of these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided SOMETHING BETTER for US, that THEY should not be made perfect apart from US.` (Heb. 11: 39 & 40) Notice the `THEY and US.` The THEY are the Old Testament saints and the US are the Body of Christ. `SOMETHING BETTER` relates to a greater dominion. (Greek - kreitton & kratos) `MADE PERFECT,` relates to being complete, to consummate. Thus we see that the OT saints will be made complete in the city after the Body of Christ will be with Christ on His throne, the greater dominion. Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-29T23:30:56-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: So what's the thing that bothers you to the point that you keep hammering the deal about who has what in God's kingdom? Do you have a desire to have dominion over others and set on thrones? We know Jesus' answer when the mother of James and John asked for them to be seated at the right and left of Jesus ( Matt. 20)Maybe we're different but I don't concern myself with thoughts about what powers or places of authority I may or may not have in eternity. I frankly , am so unworthy of anything from God, that just to be in His presence forever is overwhelmingly wonderful to meditate upon. When you said you were correcting Errors, couldn't you have just said you thought there was a difference between the bride and the body of Christ? Maybe there is, I think everyone on this forum knows we're not Israel and that we are the Body of Christ. So is it your opinion that our theology is flawed with errors? I'm sure I don't have full revelation of everything God's Word lays out (though after 40 years I should be further along than I am, but that's on me) but I do believe The Holy Spirit gives discernment keeping me from errors, heresy, false doctrines, and false shepherds. I'm not claiming never to have been deceived or believed something someone misinterpreted in scripture, but God, in His grace and mercy has shown me eventually. So I am just wondering what's the point you're seeking to get over? I respectfully disagree that there are apostles today (not even your dear uncle) so with that position, I can't and won't receive teachings that are based from that belief. So if someday you're in a place in God's kingdom of dominion over me, then hallelujah, I really don't mind... just remember that what ever I said to you in this life I did so in love and kindness with humility. I love you as a sister in Christ.🙏
creator: james
date: 2019-12-30T21:34:20-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi James, `Hammering!` Isn`t this forum open to discussion? And I am just discussing as others do here. Just because I have been taught differently, & you believe you have the truth, then doesn`t it behove those who have the truth to speak the truth graciously and patiently? When people have to try and put others down it means they are threatened. Now why I have brought this topic up is that it is not doctrinally correct, only based on an exhortation, and something said by Paul specifically to his disciples. Also it leads to an error in where we believe we will go to be with the Lord. Then, and most importantly it leads to not making the Lord pre-eminent over all. Think about it, God`s word tells us that the Lord is pre-eminent, and that we His Body will rule and reign with Him on His throne. So if you believe we have been promised the city, then that COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD. And thus the Lord`s throne, in that scenario is placed below the angelic realm, below where even Lucifer ruled, below God. God has written in His word concerning His Son and that He will rule from the highest realm. We know that no one was found worthy for such an esteemed high rulership, none but the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is truly worth speaking about. I`m am not concerned about my rulership etc but that the Lord be pre-eminent in all things, as the Father has purposed before time. Hope that is a more helpful explanation. regards, Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-30T23:03:14-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 23:03 Now why I have brought this topic up is that it is not doctrinally correct, only based on an exhortation, and something said by Paul specifically to his disciples. Also it leads to an error in where we believe we will go to be with the Lord. Then, and most importantly it leads to not making the Lord pre-eminent over all. I`m am not concerned about my rulership etc but that the Lord be pre-eminent in all things, as the Father has purposed before time. Hope that is a more helpful explanation. regards, Marilyn. Help me connect the dots Marilyn, I'm assuming you're concerned about The Lord Jesus not being "pre-eminent over all" in the life of a Christian, right? Because we know from scripture that He IS...preeminent over all Col. 1:15-18 Maybe you think believers zeal for Christ will wane if we don't have the same interpretation of future events?
creator: james
date: 2019-12-30T23:27:51-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: james wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 21:34 I respectfully disagree that there are apostles today (not even your dear uncle) so with that position, I can't and won't receive teachings that are based from that belief. Hi James, Any of us can just say, `I don`t believe such and such,` but it takes effort and study as God`s word says to discuss with each other. `Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2: 15) And I have not seen you do that. I presented what God`s word says and you never commented. Always easy to hide behind emotive words. Here are the texts again - `When He ascended on high......He gave apostles....` (Eph. 4: 8 & 11) Note the `s` plural. `Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,..... Nor did WE seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when WE might have made demands as APOSTLES of Christ.`(1 Thess. 1 & 2 Thess. 2: 6) Quite plain from God word. Marilyn. BTW I do not believe that all who call themselves `apostles` are truly so. Only the Lord knows who are His, I believe.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-30T23:37:06-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: james wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 23:27 Marilyn Crow wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 23:03 Now why I have brought this topic up is that it is not doctrinally correct, only based on an exhortation, and something said by Paul specifically to his disciples. Also it leads to an error in where we believe we will go to be with the Lord. Then, and most importantly it leads to not making the Lord pre-eminent over all. I`m am not concerned about my rulership etc but that the Lord be pre-eminent in all things, as the Father has purposed before time. Hope that is a more helpful explanation. regards, Marilyn. Help me connect the dots Marilyn, I'm assuming you're concerned about The Lord Jesus not being "pre-eminent over all" in the life of a Christian, right? Because we know from scripture that He IS...preeminent over all Col. 1:15-18 Maybe you think believers zeal for Christ will wane if we don't have the same interpretation of future events? Hi James, The Lord is pre-eminent over all as we know, and I`m sure Christians believe that. However because there has been false teaching regarding our inheritance then that actually presents the Lord in a lower rulership position. The Holy Spirit has been sent to lead us into all truth concerning the Lord. Thus if I believe I see an error especially in relation to the Lordship of Christ, then it is my responsibility to bring up that discussion. Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-30T23:44:20-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: I'm sure there are people that presents Jesus in all kind of unbiblical ways and rulership positions, but that is not the case on this forum. We know people also wrest scriptures to back up their beliefs as well as just plain misinterpreted what is being presented by God for our instruction. We can say we are ALL sent forth with a message, or are delegates for Christ...and that's true. But the Biblical pattern and example of an apostle ( an we've been over this before on this forum) is the commissioned person had a direct encounter with Jesus, witnessed Him in person and was anointed by Jesus for specific purposes. Yes, we could say there were others in scripture called apostles but is that the proper translation of the original writings? I'm not digging out my Greek NT cause it wouldn't help me, I've forgotten everything I learned in Greek class 40 years ago. Besides, if there are Apostles today my believing or not won't change the fact. Truth is truth whether anyone believes it or not. Anyway, I'll bow out because this could go on forever, and I'm not interested enough to spent the time on it. Hope I didn't offend you; I'm not offended, just not interested in something I know I will never convince you differently nor you me.
creator: james
date: 2019-12-31T01:09:58-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: James, You have accused me of `hammering,` without any proof, no examples and then bow out. Is that Christian? You need to give examples so that I and others can learn what you are saying. Otherwise there needs to be an apology for the accusation. I have noticed in this topic that if someone does not agree then they will try and put down, accuse the other person, or flood the topic with lots of their own comments and not address the topic. It tells me that some people are threatened by certain scriptures. Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-31T03:23:36-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Maybe the word hammering means something different in Australia than here... I apologize for using the word " hammering " and that I offended you with it. Sorry
creator: james
date: 2019-12-31T03:50:47-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Hi James, `Hammering` gives the picture of someone continually hitting people over the head with their ideas. Thank you for your apology. Much appreciated. regards, Marilyn.
creator: Marilyn Crow
date: 2019-12-31T04:11:03-00:00

Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
type: item
description: Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 31 December 2019 03:23 I have noticed in this topic that if someone does not agree then they will try and put down, accuse the other person, or flood the topic with lots of their own comments and not address the topic. It tells me that some people are threatened by certain scriptures. Marilyn. Now that is funny! Since I don't know anyone else you could be referring to but to me in this topic: 1) I have completely answered all of your propositions. 2) My 'put downs' are limited to actually showing that you've not proven ANY of your propositions. 3) My 'accusations' are that you have not provided ANY basis for your propositions. 4) My 'flood of comments' are almost exclusively directed to the topic and fortified with ample scripture references. 5) As to not addressing the 'topic'? How can you make such a statement when all I've done is address the topic??? 6) You seem to be in a projecting-mode when you say that "some people are threatened by certain scriptures". Scripture is not something that should ever be feared, in fact, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God! It's my food, my nourishment! The only thing that I haven't answered is your last appeal (the "they" "we" "better" argument) which, to anyone who reads the book of Hebrews knows full well that the central point of the whole book is that we have better promises, better covenant, better High Priest, better Sacrifice, etc.. The "weak and beggarly elements"(Gal4:9) of the old covenant dim in comparison to the new covenant! Those OT saints are in for a blessing for sure! My real surprise was that you didn't say that the verse you quoted was to the "Hebrews", (you know, those "Israelites") and not to the "body of Christ". That would have been more typical of your style of interpretation, but I understand, you couldn't get away with it here because it would have threatened the very point you were making!!! Lest I be accused of not being specific, let me quote you: Quote: H…
creator: william
date: 2019-12-31T11:34:31-00:00