Why I Believe in Oneness Since there are scriptures that could take this issue either way we must find the bottom line,then we can build our understanding upon it. I believe the root of Trinitarian error is their interpretation of the word ONE. If one means "only one"as applied to God, the Catholic, Orthodox,and their offspring Protestant churches are mixed up in their teaching. How do we determine the meaning? Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is ONE LORD:And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart,and with all thy soul,and with all thy might. Deut.6:4-5 The Hebrew word for ONE is "echad". It can be used to mean ONLY or UNITED. Those who say echad never means a solitary ONE have not taken the time to look it up in the Strongs no. 259. Reading verses where this word means one and only would TAKE ALL DAY to accomplish. If you want to know if this is true just try it. Now if God says he is ONE and there is NONE ELSE he certainly means one in the one and only sense. If he were two or three he might have said to us,"I am God along with several others". Nothing in the context of Duet.6:4-5 points to the word ONE meaning plurality in unity. Israel never took it that way. They believed they served a God who was THE ONLY GOD. When God introduced himself to Moses it was on this wise: And God said unto Moses I AM THAT I AM: Ex.3:14 Notice he did not say WE ARE WHAT WE ARE. He was revealing himself as THE ONLY GOD. Oneness doctrine starts from the position that when applied to God the word ONE actually means ONE. HE not THEY. HIM not THEM. I build what I believe about Oneness with this understanding. The Trinitarians start with a PREMISE that ONE GOD DOESNT REALLY MEAN ONE GOD. Right at that point they make it impossible to understand the Godhead. The apostles were Jewish one God people. They never heard any preaching about their God having ONE OR TWO OTHER CO EQUAL,CO ETERNAL, SEPERATE BUT ONE IN UNITY TEACHING. They were more used to the one God preaching of prophets like Isaiah. Look unto me and be ye saved,all the ends of the earth: for I am God and there IS NONE ELSE. Isaiah 45:22 So if the Apostles believed Yeshua was indeed God, he was the ONLY GOD for they believed there was none else but HE. Oneness is simply a word describing two foundational truths. 1. God is THE ONLY GOD. 2.Yeshua is God. All teaching on the Godhead must start FROM THIS REFERENCE POINT. peace,mike
Why I believe in the Triune Nature of God
Quote: The apostles were Jewish one God people. They never heard any preaching about their God having ONE OR TWO OTHER CO EQUAL,CO ETERNAL, SEPERATE BUT ONE IN UNITY TEACHING. They were more used to the one God preaching of prophets like Isaiah. Ahh but there's always that one odd exception. That apostle who was able to express it all in one verse--John Quote: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Break it down for me brother! Quote: Joh 1:1 εν In 1722 PREP αρχη the beginning 746 N-DSF ην was 2258 V-IXI-3S ο the 3588 T-NSM λογος Word 3056 N-NSM και and 2532 CONJ ο the 3588 T-NSM λογος Word 3056 N-NSM ην was 2258 V-IXI-3S προς with 4314 PREP τον the 3588 T-ASM θεον God 2316 N-ASM και and 2532 CONJ θεος God 2316 N-NSM ην was 2258 V-IXI-3S ο 3588 T-NSM λογος Word. 3056 N-NSM The problem you have is using terms like "oneness" and "trinity" which have loaded meanings that don't necessarily jive with the truth. William
The following is my dissertation on why I believe in one God that is eternally manifested as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Get ready - because this is very deep teaching... Jesus referred to all three in Matthew 28:19 when he spoke of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Just to be sure, I broke out my Greek, and sure enough, the Greek word is different for all three. That pretty much settles it for me. Any attempt to pursuade me otherwise would have to make me believe that Matthew 28:19 was accidentally put in the Bible by someone else. Have a great day! Duncan ps - I actually have no problem baptizing in the Name of Jesus, because in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells. The fact is, there is still a "Godhead" that consists of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
William, You said: The problem you have is using terms like "oneness" and "trinity" which have loaded meanings that don't necessarily jive with the truth. Me: If one wanted to emphasise that YHWH is one and one alone what term would he use to describe it? If there is a better one than "oneness" I will use it! You said: Ahh but there's always that one odd exception. That apostle who was able to express it all in one verse--John Me: You believe this to be an exception to the fact there is only one God? Joh 1:1 εν In 1722 PREP αρχη the beginning 746 N-DSF ην was 2258 V-IXI-3S ο the 3588 T-NSM λογος Word 3056 N-NSM και and 2532 CONJ ο the 3588 T-NSM λογος Word 3056 N-NSM ην was 2258 V-IXI-3S προς with 4314 PREP τον the 3588 T-ASM θεον God 2316 N-ASM και and 2532 CONJ θεος God 2316 N-NSM ην was 2258 V-IXI-3S ο 3588 T-NSM λογος Word. 3056 N-NSM Actually this makes it clear as a bell! Who WAS the Word? God was (the) Word. God himself was the Word just as the Greek says. God manifesting himself in visible form in Old Testament times. If someone other than God was the Word we have already multiplied gods! That is the key. Stay with the Biblical truth that God is ONE and deeper understanding will come.
Quote: You believe this to be an exception to the fact there is only one God? Certainly not! I've never said there are three Gods. And no, I don't believe John 1:1 is an exception to anything but your statement... I'll quote it again: Quote: The apostles were Jewish one God people. They never heard any preaching about their God having ONE OR TWO OTHER CO EQUAL,CO ETERNAL, SEPERATE BUT ONE IN UNITY TEACHING. They were more used to the one God preaching of prophets like Isaiah. John 1:1 IS EXACTLY WHAT I BELIEVE! William
Quote: Actually this makes it clear as a bell! Who WAS the Word? God was (the) Word. And who was with God? Jesus was with God! Yes, John expressed the mystery in just one verse! William
Duncan wrote on Wed, 03 October 2007 09:10 The following is my dissertation on why I believe in one God that is eternally manifested as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Get ready - because this is very deep teaching... Jesus referred to all three in Matthew 25:19 when he spoke of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Just to be sure, I broke out my Greek, and sure enough, the Greek word is different for all three. That pretty much settles it for me. Any attempt to pursuade me otherwise would have to make me believe that Matthew 25:19 was accidentally put in the Bible by someone else. Have a great day! Duncan ps - I actually have no problem baptizing in the Name of Jesus, because in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells. The fact is, there is still a "Godhead" that consists of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Hi Duncan, It would be a bit rash to base our understanding on just one verse of scripture would it not? And yet if you have no problem with baptism in Jesus name the revelation is right there! There is no other reason to baptize that way if the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit is NOT Jesus! Consider the similarity of Matt. 28:19 and Isaiah 9:6. 6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7: Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. We agree Im sure the Son who is given is Jesus. But Isaiah also said his name (who's name?) will be called Everlasting Father. Do you call Jesus the Everlasting Father? We already see that Jesus is BOTH the Father and the Son. What of the Holy Spirit? When do we call Jesus the WONDERFUL COUNSELOR? If you love me you will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father and he will give you another COUNSELOR to be with you for ever. John 14:15-16 The word "Counselor" is found in both the Revised Standard and the NIV versions. Who does Jesus reveal this COUNSELOR to be? Even the spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him or knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. Verse 17 I will not leave you desolate I WILL COME TO YOU...Verse 18. The Holy Spirit or "COUNSELOR" to come is Jesus himself! I WILL COME TO YOU. So not only is Jesus the Everlasting Father and the begotten Son he himself is the Wonderful Counselor or Holy Spirit! I agree that Matt. 28:19 is an excellent scripture. Yet rather than make three separate persons each one of them God in their own right it actually ties the Father, Son, and Spirit together in one name. Remember there is only ONE GOD! In Isaiah 9:6 we find the doctrine of the Christ. Identifying who he would be. It parallels Matt. 28:19 very nicely.
Michael said: It would be a bit rash to base our understanding on just one verse of scripture would it not? And yet if you have no problem with baptism in Jesus name the revelation is right there! I don't consider it rash at all. Jesus plainly said "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", and I did not take the scripture out of its context to prove a point. If the scripture is truly the inspired Word of God, it only needs to be said one time. I don't need to see it several times to know it's true. But since you asked, I will give you one more just to back up the truth - and get ready, because this comes directly from the mouth of God. The first half of Gen 1:26 states, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...etc." That sounds to me like God was referring to the plural. Again, thanks for the thought-provoking discussion, but it only serves to solidify what I already believe. I am fairly certain that there is nothing you could say or quote to convince me otherwise. I only need to look at the two verses I have quoted to have it settled in my mind. Are there any other topics you would like us to clear up for you? Thanks again, and have a great day! Duncan
moulder wrote on Wed, 03 October 2007 09:47 Quote: Actually this makes it clear as a bell! Who WAS the Word? God was (the) Word. And who was with God? Jesus was with God! Yes, John expressed the mystery in just one verse! William William, But the Word is not ALSO GOD. As if another besides Him. The Word IS GOD of whom only one exists. The Logos is/was the visible expression of the omnipresent invisible God. His personal image. "The express image of HIS PERSON". I will have much more to say about the Logos as time allows. This image needed to be with him because God in his omnipresence can never be see. He is to vast to fit into creation! 27: But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? 1 Kings 8:27 The "image" was not another co equal, co eternal person who was ALSO GOD along with the Father. It or "he" was the vehicle that God used to come and go and be visibly present in creation. The image is referred to as WORD as in "expression" and also Son in regards to our salvation. So Gods visible image or WORD/LOGOS was with him. Yet as you posted in the Greek GOD HIMSELF IS THE LOGOS! That to me is "oneness".
Duncan wrote on Wed, 03 October 2007 10:32 Michael said: It would be a bit rash to base our understanding on just one verse of scripture would it not? And yet if you have no problem with baptism in Jesus name the revelation is right there! I don't consider it rash at all. Jesus plainly said "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", and I did not take the scripture out of its context to prove a point. If the scripture is truly the inspired Word of God, it only needs to be said one time. I don't need to see it several times to know it's true. But since you asked, I will give you one more just to back up the truth - and get ready, because this comes directly from the mouth of God. The first half of Gen 1:26 states, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...etc." That sounds to me like God was referring to the plural. Again, thanks for the thought-provoking discussion, but it only serves to solidify what I already believe. I am fairly certain that there is nothing you could say or quote to convince me otherwise. I only need to look at the two verses I have quoted to have it settled in my mind. Are there any other topics you would like us to clear up for you? Thanks again, and have a great day! Duncan Duncan, I appreciate your desire to help me. Now lets see here. Let us make man in our image..... So do you think one person who is God said this to ANOTHER PERSON WHO WAS ALSO GOD? If so how is it that many scriptures show God is ONE? If God is plural that means he is more than one right? This view basically does away with the monotheism of the Bible. I will be glad to share what I believe about Gen. 1:26. Hopefully I will get time before I leave for work.
Re: Why I believe Jesus wasn't throwing His voice "This is my Son..."
Quote: It or "he" was the vehicle that God used to come and go and be visibly present in creation. Sounds just like modalism to me. We are not arguing the fact that God is one, He is one. We are arguing the fact that you are only looking at one aspect of the equation. Duncan said it best when he made the statement: Quote: I believe in one God that is eternally manifested as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To leave out any of these words constitutes heresy. One God, Eternally manifested as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There never was a time where one of the "vehicles" (to use your term) was not present with God, and as God. In other words modalism teaches that this one "personality" was at one time revealed as Father, then on another occasion, Jesus (the Logos/Son), and on another occasion, the Holy Spirit. These "vehicles" were always eternally recognized as being "God". Now, it seems to me that you see one aspect of this, but are ignoring the distinction that God Himself has made within His unified nature, i.e. the Godhead. There are variations on this teaching, but they usually deny the eternalness of the Son, saying that the Son had no beginning before Jesus was born. (This constitutes heresy as well.) William
Michael, When my 7 yr old asked me about this subject, here is how I explained it to her (please don't take that statement to mean that I think you have the mental status of a 7 yr old). I believe that God helped me to explain it to her as follows: Think of God as the sun in our solar system. It is so bright that we can't look directly at it. Think of Jesus as the light that the sun gives to the earth - just like Jesus came to this earth to give us the Light. Think of the Holy Spirit as the heat that the earth receives from the sun - just like the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through us. There is only one sun, but it is manifested in three different ways. Finally, I would like to issue a quick caution to you. I just thought of anothe verse that Jesus mentions , and it is a warning to us. Matt 12:31, Jesus says that we can receive forgiveness for blaspheme of Him, but if we blaspheme the Holy Spirit, there will be no forgiveness. I'm not sure, but by denying the existence of the Holy Spirit in a "Jesus Only" doctrine comes very close to what Jesus was saying. Just something to think about. Have a great day! Duncan
Here comes the accusations of heresy. So here is my understanding of the classic doctrine of Trinitarianism. There are three separate, co equal, co eternal persons each one being distinctly God in their own right. Is this your view? To me THIS smacks of heresy. I remember HEF saying Oneness are not heretics they are just mixed up on the Godhead. I give the same benefit of the doubt to Trinitarians to a point. As soon as we make more than ONE PERSON to be God we have violated scripture. Hey we have hardly even began the discussion! Most of these Godhead discussions people have are mere "snippets" back and forth. This subject is vast. What is more interesting and important than to study the nature of our God?
Duncan wrote on Wed, 03 October 2007 11:40 Michael, When my 7 yr old asked me about this subject, here is how I explained it to her (please don't take that statement to mean that I think you have the mental status of a 7 yr old). I believe that God helped me to explain it to her as follows: Think of God as the sun in our solar system. It is so bright that we can't look directly at it. Think of Jesus as the light that the sun gives to the earth - just like Jesus came to this earth to give us the Light. Think of the Holy Spirit as the heat that the earth receives from the sun - just like the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through us. There is only one sun, but it is manifested in three different ways. Finally, I would like to issue a quick caution to you. I just thought of anothe verse that Jesus mentions , and it is a warning to us. Matt 12:31, Jesus says that we can receive forgiveness for blaspheme of Him, but if we blaspheme the Holy Spirit, there will be no forgiveness. I'm not sure, but by denying the existence of the Holy Spirit in a "Jesus Only" doctrine comes very close to what Jesus was saying. Just something to think about. Have a great day! Duncan Guess what Duncan? Your description of God is EXACTLY the one Sabellius a famous Oneness Teacher used in the third century! It is commonly quoted in both Oneness and Trinitarian discussions. I cant believe you are cautioning me about blaspheming the Holy Spirit. By the time I am finished in this thread you will see there is nothing in my words speaking evil of the Holy Spirit. You probably have never had a discussion with a bona fide Oneness believer. When I am done if you consider me a heretic thats up to you. Meanwhile I will continue as always simply a disciple to Yeshua Messiah. Do I deny the Holy Spirit? In doing so I would be denying Christ. 9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9 The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God are one spirit not two. Paul taught us there is only one Spirit. 4: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph. 4:4
Okay then, you are simply "mixed up"! I don't consider one who hasn't grasped the significance of One God, eternally manifested as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as a heretic. Now orthodox Christianity puts you in that camp, since heresy is a deviation from the normal tenets of Christianity. To be fair, many who hold to the "trinity" are mixed up in their understanding as well. Can you not subscribe to the statement of faith Duncan proposes, that God is one God, eternally manifested as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? If you cannot then I daresay that there is at least a hint of heresy in your understanding. William
Duncan said: I don't consider it rash at all. Jesus plainly said "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", and I did not take the scripture out of its context to prove a point Me: Oneness does not deny Father, Son, and Spirit. What we reject is that each one of these is God in his own right separatley from the other. This in our thinking makes three Gods rather than one. Did Isaiah say (Isaiah 9:6) we would call the SON, EVERLASTING FATHER? This is what I am guilty of doing! I say Jesus is the Everlasting Father AS WELL AS the Son of God. Why do Catholics and Protestants back away from this? Every time I call Jesus my Eternal Father I am fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah!
Im not sure I can agree with Duncan and yourself on his statement. If by doing so I would be denying Jesus pre existing as the Mighty God, Everlasting Father no way! If his belief does not exclude my own maybe. I am preparing for work now so probably wont get much more accomplished today. I am not seeing this as a discussion that will quickly be over. Time is very hard to find for me so most of my posting is done in the morning and late at night.
Michael, Sabellius (the father of Sabellianism) was not a Oneness. He was a modalist. He believed that God existed separately in three different modes: God at creation, Jesus as human and the Holy Spirit today. If you want to call all those modes Jesus, then I guess that's where you get it. Finally, I do NOT hold to three Gods. The one true God has three separate manifestations or personalities, each co-equal. It is not something our finite brains can comprehend. The same way my finite brain can't understand that Jesus was totally human and totally divine at the same time. It's something I have to take by faith. In conclusion, I know what I read in the Word, and the Spirit bears witness to my spirit. In other words, there is no need for you to try and convince me otherwise, because I am firmly grounded. I am not accusing you of heresy, but when you talk about "Jesus Only," it seems that you are diminishing the work of the Holy Spirit. Thanks for the discussion, but I'm not sure if there is anything further I can add. Have a great day! Duncan
Let Us Make Man In Our Image. Who was God speaking to? If Trinitarianism is correct he was speaking to two others persons who were God. God plus two others who are also God looks like three Gods from here. So we must look elsewhere. Especially since the following verse reads: 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. So God is in the SINGULAR after all. But was anyone else present at creation who had the same image as God? What about the Angels? It is easier to believe that he said it to THEM out of courtesy then did it himself as in verse 27 than that there are OTHER PERSONS who are ALSO GOD. Does God include the Angels in what he does? 18: Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19: And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. 20: Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? 21: And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. 2 Chronicles 18:18-21 Obviously he has dialog with them. Does God have the same image as Angels? Ever hear of the Angel Of the LORD? My next post will answer this question and also bring more light on the subject of In the beginning was the Word.....
1 John 4:12...No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 Timothy 6:16...Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen Several places in the word of God we are told God has never been seen. Isaiah 6:1-5...In the year that King Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne high and lifted up and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims, each one had six wings, with twain he covered his face and twain he covered his feet and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another and said Holy Holy Holy is the Lord of Hosts: the whole earth is fully of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried. and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I Woe is me! For I am undone, because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips for mine eyes have seen THE KING THE LORD OF HOSTS. So the question must be asked who or what did Isaiah and various others see when they proclaimed they had seen God? In the revelation of this mystery we will discover a truth that will honor Yeshua to the highest place in the universe. 1 Kings 8:27...But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? Solomon recognized that in his essence as ominipresent spirit God was bigger than the universe he created. Before creation he dwelt alone in indescribable power and glory with himself. Since he never had a beginning he had an eternity to plan the creation of the universe. Since he as omnipresent spirit would be bigger than creation itself he desired to find a way to come inside what he would make and be part of it. John 1:1-3...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Before the beginning God had no need of a form. He was omnipresent spirit dwelling alone so there was no one else to have seen him. But since he desired to be seen in his creation it was necessary for him to create a visible manifestation of himself. This form or visible manifestation would be everthing that he himself was except in reduced, visible form. This was not another person who was God but God himself dwelling in the visible form. This form he took would be the same as the angels who he would later create. That way when they were created he would be sitting there on his throne and would explain to them who they were and what he was. So they would not be seeing him as omnipresent spirit, they would be seeing him in angelic form as the image of the invisible God. The Greek for WORD in these scriptures is LOGOS. Many meanings are given for this word in Strong's concordance. In context the one that seems to fit here is THE DIVINE EXPRESSION. For this visible angelic manifestation of the ominpresent spirit of God would be the full expression of his character and glory. Today certain companies will have a little picture or design stamped on their product and we call that a logo. The purpose of the logo is that when people see it the actual company itself will come to mind. In the same way God's (logos) or WORD is what he has given creation as a small yet all-powerful expression of his own person. So when we are told in the beginning was the Word it means the beginning of creation. The Word existed from the beginning of creation but the one who dwelt in the Word existed from eternity. So at creation the WORD spoke and the omnipresent spirit moved to bring all things into being. We are told the Word was with God. It was a separate PORTION of his own being. So when John says and the WORD was God he is not implying the existence of two God's. Rather he is showing that the image of the invisible Gode is the ETERNAL GOD HIMSELF. Now we will show powerful proof that WORD was an angelic form that God used to manifest himself visibly to creation. Exodus 3:1-4...Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. And the ANGEL OF THE LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off they feet, for the place where on thou standest is holy ground. Morever he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. When God introduced himself to Moses we are told the Angel of the Lord is what he saw in the bush. Yet, even though what he saw was the Angel of the Lord yet we are told it was God who called to him out of the bush. So this is how Moses knew God face to face. He saw him in the person of the Angel of the Lord. Isaiah 63:7-9...I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Who was it that carried Israel? Who was it that was afflicted in all their afflictions? Who was their Saviour? Isaiah the prophet tells us it was the Lord. Yet, it was the Lord doing all these things through the ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE. When the angel of the Lord was present, the Lord Himself was present. As Israel saw the angel of his presence, they saw him, that is God Himself. Genesis 32:24-30...And Jacob was left alone: and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? and he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blesed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. So here we have the story of Jacob wrestling with an angel. Yet upon remembering this event, he said he had seen God face to face. Why? Because the angel of God WAS GOD. Hosea 12:3-5...He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strenth he had power with God. Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; Even the Lord God of hosts; the Lord is him memorial. Here Hosea reiterates the story of Jacob wrestling with the angel. It says by his strength he had power WITH GOD. And why did he make supplication to the angel? Because he was THE LORD GOD OF HOSTS. Genesis 48:15-16...And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads: and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. On his death bed Jacob says plainly the ANGEL OF GOD who had been with him all his life was God himself. So what is our point in all of these scriptures? The biblical writers tells us "no man hath seen God at any time". So what is it about God no one has ever seen? Is it not his essence of omni-present spirit? In his omni-presence God fills the whole universe and even beyond, because it is too small to contain him! So what is it about God that men claim to have seen? In his wisdom the omnipresent creator formed an angelic image of himself as his visible expression that he may have personal, face to face, communication with that which he has created. John 1:1... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Angel of the Lord was the Word. The Word was the Angel of the Lord in Old Testament times. John 1:14...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. When the time came for God to redeem fallen mankind, something happened to the Word. The Word had always dwelt in unapproachable light (omni-present spirit). To become our Saviour he would have to have a human nature including a body of flesh. At just the right moment, the onmi-present Holy Spirit transformed the Word into a seed small enough to fit into the womb of a young virgin named Mary. Matthew 1:18...Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Luke 1:35... And the Angel (Gabriel) answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Notice that in both of these verses it is the Holy Ghost (omni-present spirit) who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. All during the years of his life when he spoke of, and prayed to his Father he was talking about the Holy Ghost. Now the Word which was God's visible image had been changed from spirit to flesh. And Gabriel told Mary that holy thing shall be called THE SON OF GOD. So this child who was born, this son who was given, had pre-existed as the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father. Now Yeshua had two natures. Or to modes of existence. John 3:13...And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that come down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. As a human being on earth he was a man, the Son of God. At the same time in heaven he still remained God-the Everlasting Father. He was what is called fully man and fully God at the same time. While he was here as a human being he knew the same limitations and temptations as any other man yet without sin. Yet the nature of the heavenly Father also dwelt in the body of the Son. So even though in Christ there are two separate natures or modes of existence he still tells us they are somehow linked together. The mighty works healing and casting out of devils and prophetic visions were done through his connection to the Father. John 14:10...Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. This is what Yeshua meant when he said MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I. The God nature that he still held in his heavenly existence was greater than his human nature.
Praise the Lord all, So when God said let us make man in OUR IMAGE he was talking to Angels. God himself had an Angelic image as shown by my previous post. So they had the same image although of course YHWH was much greater and their Creator. When he said Let us make man it does not mean Angels created man. It would be like I would say to my family "Let us go buy a pizza". What is inferred is that they will be with me but I myself will buy the pizza. God told them what HE was going to do and out of courtesy included them.
Duncan wrote on Wed, 03 October 2007 14:06 Michael, Sabellius (the father of Sabellianism) was not a Oneness. He was a modalist. He believed that God existed separately in three different modes: God at creation, Jesus as human and the Holy Spirit today. If you want to call all those modes Jesus, then I guess that's where you get it. Finally, I do NOT hold to three Gods. The one true God has three separate manifestations or personalities, each co-equal. It is not something our finite brains can comprehend. The same way my finite brain can't understand that Jesus was totally human and totally divine at the same time. It's something I have to take by faith. In conclusion, I know what I read in the Word, and the Spirit bears witness to my spirit. In other words, there is no need for you to try and convince me otherwise, because I am firmly grounded. I am not accusing you of heresy, but when you talk about "Jesus Only," it seems that you are diminishing the work of the Holy Spirit. Thanks for the discussion, but I'm not sure if there is anything further I can add. Have a great day! Duncan Duncan, Lesson for today. A Modalist and a Oneness are one and the same. Who are the "modalists? They are Oneness. There is a false, heretical view of Modalism that says God was the Father then he was the Son now he is the Spirit. They (whoever they are) say he is not in distinct modes of being similtaneously which is my position and the huge majority of Oneness I have talked to. I maintain that God is in two realms of existence at the same time in this age. In one mode of existence he is God, the heavenly Father. Yet distinct from that he now ALSO has an existence as MAN. In this mode of being he has limited himself to humanity. He is inferior to God the Father. Yet AS GOD THE FATHER he is greater than all and above all. It looks like this: 5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Tim. 2:5 I realize that Trinitarians do not confess there are three gods. Yet the wording of three separate co equal, co eternal persons each one God in his own right sure sounds like it. Back in 1980 when I was among the Trinitarian Church and I heard the message I now teach the Holy Spirit bore witness with my spirit that this was truth. Once I saw what Trinitarianism actually teaches I knew I was not one. If you leave the discussion thats up to you. I advise stay till all that will be said is said.
For Your Consideration Matthew 10:19-20...But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak, for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. Mark 13:11...But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. If the Father and Holy Ghost are separate and distinct persons which inspired writer is correct? Matthew tells us the Spirit of the Father will speak, but Mark says it will be the Holy Ghost. Luke 21:14-15...Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And now to add fuel to the fire Luke records the same discourse by saying it is Yeshua who will do the speaking! Is it not very likely they were all three inspired to write what they wrote because THESE THREE ARE ONE? Romans 6:4...Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of THE FATHER, even so we also should walk in the newness of life. 1 Peter 3:18...For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by THE SPIRIT. As concerning the resurrection we see the apostle Paul states Christ was raised from the dead by the Father. Then Peter says he was raised (or quickened) by the Holy Ghost. Did it take two separate and distinct persons who are both God to raise one man from the dead? John 2:18-21...Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in thee days? But he spake of the temple of his body. Now we have the ASTOUNDING statement by Yeshua that it is HE HIMSELF who will resurrect HIMSELF! Saints of God, It would not take three divine persons to raise ONE MAN from the dead! No doubt the Holy Spirit wants us to see that these three are one and the SAME SPIRIT. 1 Corinthians 12:4-6...Now there are diversities of gifts, but the SAME SPIRIT, And there are differences of administrations, but the SAME LORD. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the SAME GOD which worketh all in all. So who is working the gifts in the believer? Verse 4 says the SAME SPIRIT. Verse 5 says the SAME LORD. Verse 6 says the SAME GOD. 1 Corinthians 12:11...But all these worketh that ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT,dividing to every man severally as HE WILL. So evidently the same Lord, the same Spirit and same God is a HE. He is one and the SELFSAME SPIRIT. God never says he is three, but always that he is ONE! Ephesians 4:4-6...There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. The apostle Paul knew only one Lord. Who was he? Acts 9:5...And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I AM JESUS whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. The ONLY LORD Paul knew was Jesus. The apostle Paul knew only one Spirit. Who was he? 2 Corinthians 3:16-17...Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. So to Paul Jesus was the only Lord. And now the same man writing under inspiration says, THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT! Jesus himself is ONE SPIRIT Paul knew. Paul knew only one who was both God and Father. Who was he? Isaiah 9:6...For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Now we see the all powerful truth that it is THE SON (Jesus) who is both THE MIGHTY GOD - THE EVERLASTING FATHER! So if Jesus is both God and Father, then he is the ONLY GOD AND FATHER. Because the apostle Paul said there is ONLY ONE who is both God and Father.
Colossians 2:2-3...That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Paul says there is a mystery concerning God. That is why sometimes it seems difficult to reconcile statements of scripture about the identity of the Father and Christ. Luke 10:21-22...In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. Yeshua says that the Father has HIDDEN the truth about the Father and the Son from some. He doesn't allow those who are full of their own wisdom to see him in all of His splendor. On the other hand it is his joy to be known by the humble. Yeshua says we can only understand the mystery of both the Father and the Son by divine revelation given by Himself. 2 Corinthians 6:16-18...And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Here the Lord Almighty says if we separate ourselves to him he will be our Father. So if the Lord will allow us to see who the Lord Almighty is we will know the identity of our Father. Revelation 1:7-8...Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him. And they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. The subject of verse 7 is the coming of Christ. We note it is he who was pierced for us. He calls himself the Alpha and Omega. He is the Lord (which was and which is and which is to come) THE ALMIGHTY. So if Yeshua himself is the Lord Almighty then we understand that he is THE FATHER of the Chrisitian. Revelation 21:5-7...And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all thing new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. We have already seen in Revelation 1:7-8. that the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending is Yeshua. We are told in Revelation 21:7 the overcomers are his sons. If the overcomers are his sons that means Yeshua is the Father! Titus 1:1-4...Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Here the apostle Paul imparts blessings to Titus from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. So we have God who is the FATHER and we have the Lord Jesus Christ who is the SAVIOUR. Is Paul implying these are two separate and distinct beings of God? In that very same epistle, the same man writing, says the following. Titus 2:13...Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the GREAT GOD and our SAVIOUR Jesus Christ; Therefore if God is the Father and Jesus Christ is the Savior, then Jesus Christ must be both, for Paul says our great God and our Saviour is JESUS CHRIST. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6...As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Some see a sharp separation between the one God who is the Father and the one Lord who is Jesus Christ. We must remember that the Holy Spirit has put a cloak of mystery over the identity of the Father and the Son. True enough there is only one God and there is only one Lord. Now let us look and see who the apostles of the New Testament Church believed they were. John 20:27-28...Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, MY LORD AND MY GOD. All the apostles were gathered together when Thomas proclaimed Yeshua was both his Lord and his God. This was the truth that was plainly revealed to the apostles. So for those who have ears to hear there is one God and that is Yeshua and also there is one Lord who is also Yeshua. For the Lord our God is ONE. Notice that the throne of God and the Lamb is SINGULAR. Also his servants shall serve him not them. They shall see HIS FACE, NOT THEIR FACES. And HIS NAME, NOT THEIR NAMES shall be in their foreheads. It is called the throne of God and of the Lamb. We know the Lamb is Yeshua. Who is the Lord God that giveth them light? Thomas answered and said unto him, (Yeshua) MY LORD AND MY GOD. So the throne of God is occupied by ONE who is BOTH God and the Lamb. Ephesians 5:8...For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: If Christians are the children of light then the light is their father. WHO IS THE LIGHT? JOHN 12:44-46...Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. Yeshua is the light. We are the children of light. Conclusion? Yeshua is our Father. 1 John 2:28-29...And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness IS BORN OF HIM. Are we not to abide in Yeshua? Are we not to be ready for HIS COMING? John is plainly writing about Him. He says we are BORN OF HIM. If we are born of him we are his children and he is our Father. Johm 14:6-9... Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord shew us the Father; and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Early in our study Yeshua said no man can know who the Father is unless the Son reveals it to them. Here the apostle Philip wanted to know the Father apart from Yeshua. Many people today seek the same thing Philip sought. But Yeshua's answer was "have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me?" He says if you have seen me YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER! Honestly friends, if you were there that day what would you have thought? Again a reminder this truth is hidden from some. To others it is revealed. If you can see the same thing Philip saw that day it is because of divine revelation. The Son has revealed the Father to you. Grace and Peace to you, Michael Gibson
Michael, You are wasting your time posting all of the scripture references that highlight the oneness of God. We believe in the oneness of God as expressed by His Word. The references to His triune (trine) nature should be the focus of your time. Remember it is Tri-Unity... the Unity part is accepted by both of us, it is the Tri part that you cannot accept. A myopic scrutiny won't work. God is who He reveals Himself to be. If we have trouble accepting both concepts, the problem lies with us, not the revelation. William
Hi Moulder, I have put many scriptures here in defence of my faith. If you think I am in error give me something better to believe. I just noticed you titled this post "Why I believe in both...Tri unity. Yet you gave absolutely no scriptural backing as to why you do. So please tell me what you mean by God is a triunity.
Time, if we only had a little more. I'm assuming the Hebrew and the accents show up on everyone's computer, if not, I'll upload a PDF file. At least you can look up the Strong's numbers. Deu 6:4 שׁמע8085 ישׂראל3478 יהוה3068 אלהינו430 יהוה3068 אחד׃259 Deu 6:4 Hear,8085 O Israel:3478 The LORD3068 our God430 is one259 LORD:3068 Please note here that 'ĕlôhîym (Gods) (Strong’s number 430) is the plural of 'ĕlôahh (God) So if you want to stress 'echâd-Strong’s 259 (as you did in your first note) then I’ll need to provide a little balance and stress 'ĕlôhîym (Gods) which shows the plurality of the One God. Now it seems to me that a simple way of denying any hint of a plurality in the Godhead would be to use the singular noun for 'ĕlôhîym here, don’t you think? Let’s see how a modalist with knowledge would translate this verse… Hear O Israel: Yeshua our Yeshuas is one Yeshua. It is interesting that you started with this verse because you wanted to emphasis numero uno, but I would have preferred that you begin at the first verse of the Bible, for here, as in Deu 6:4, 'ĕlôhîym (Gods) is used, which again, stresses the plurality of the Godhead. Gen 1:1 Gen 1:1 In the beginning7225 God430 [ 'ĕlôhîym (Gods) ] created1254 (853) the heaven8064 and the earth.776 The word is actually translated “Gods” in 1Sa 4:8 Woe188 unto us! who4310 shall deliver5337 us out of the hand4480, 3027 of these428 mighty117 Gods?430 these428 are the Gods430 that smote5221 (853) the Egyptians4714 with all3605 the plagues4347 in the wilderness.4057 More later (maybe) William
Quote: So please tell me what you mean by God is a triunity. A picture is worth a thousand words... (I found this somewhere.) And yes, I know... this isn't a perfect analogy.
Moulder Deu 6:4 Hear,8085 O Israel:3478 The LORD3068 our God430 is one259 LORD:3068 Please note here that 'ĕlôhîym (Gods) (Strong’s number 430) is the plural of 'ĕlôahh (God) So if you want to stress 'echâd-Strong’s 259 (as you did in your first note) then I’ll need to provide a little balance and stress 'ĕlôhîym (Gods) which shows the plurality of the One God. Me: The LORD is YHWH. YHWH is never plural anywhere in scripture to my knowledge. As far as Elohim yes it is plural but not in the sense you are making it. It is a plural intensive. This can be seen by the pagan deities. In Judges 11:24 the idol Chemosh is called elohim "a god". In 8:33 of the same book baal berith is called elohim. Nisroch a god of Assyria is elohim in2 Kings 19:37. Was there more than one Chemosh? More than one baal berith? Was there more than one Nisroch? No. They were singular but are called by the plural intensive as to intensify their greatness. When scripture speaks of YHWH the Elohim of Israel it always speaks of him in the singular. Thousands of times. He, Me, I, Him. It is an intensive of El from which Eloah comes. The same YHWH who is called Elohim is EL. Both EL and Eloah are singular words. EL is used in hundreds of scriptures. El to Elohim is like the difference between God and Almighty God. It is intensifying his greatness. Moulder says: The word is actually translated “Gods” in 1Sa 4:8 Woe188 unto us! who4310 shall deliver5337 us out of the hand4480, 3027 of these428 mighty117 Gods?430 these428 are the Gods430 that smote5221 (853) the Egyptians4714 with all3605 the plagues4347 in the wilderness.4057 Me: If this actually is the meaning the Spirit is trying to impress on us then indeed there is more than one true God. Thus there would be no point in YHWH stressing he is one! If he is more than one and knows he is why would he say he is one at all? Actually you are agreeing with Trinitarianism in general that YHWH is NOT ONE. Only the Oneness Faith believes YHWH is only one and Yeshua is YHWH. Moulder said: Let’s see how a modalist with knowledge would translate this verse… Hear O Israel: Yeshua our Yeshuas is one Yeshua Me: There is no such verse and why would you think YESHUA would be plural? It never is to my knowledge.
moulder wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 03:25 Quote: So please tell me what you mean by God is a triunity. A picture is worth a thousand words... (I found this somewhere.) And yes, I know... this isn't a perfect analogy. This picture confirms a belief in 3 Gods to me. It is confirming the classic Trinitarian view that there are 3 separate persons each one of them God in his own right. The Son is not the Father? Why are we supposed to call him the EVERLASTING FATHER? 6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 The Son is to be called EVERLASTING FATHER! Note that Oneness believers fulfill this prophecy. The Father is not the Holy Spirit? 18: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19: Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. Matt. 1:18-20 Notice in verses 18 and 20 the FATHER of Jesus is THE HOLY GHOST. The Father Jesus knew was the Holy Ghost! The Son is not the Spirit? 9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9 Paul said there is only ONE SPIRIT. Eph. 4: So a deeper look at scripture seems to not agree with the picture.
Quote: Moulder said: Let’s see how a modalist with knowledge would translate this verse… Hear O Israel: Yeshua our Yeshuas is one Yeshua Me: There is no such verse and why would you think YESHUA would be plural? It never is to my knowledge. No the term "Yeshua" isn't plural, but the point is that you, as a modalist, one who believes that Jesus/Yeshua is the Name for the "one" God, ought not to have any problem substituting His name in this verse. The only problem you have is trying to turn the plural "'ĕlôhîym" (Gods) in the verse to a singular "Yeshua", which would force you to translate it (into the language of the people) Hear O Israel: Yeshua our Yeshuas is one Yeshua. Quote: The LORD is YHWH. YHWH is never plural anywhere in scripture to my knowledge. As far as Elohim yes it is plural but not in the sense you are making it. It is a plural intensive. Now your "plurality of majesty" argument is a bit self-serving when you say "yes it is plural ['ĕlôhîym] but not in the sense you are making it"... I say you've got a major blind spot when it comes to this very issue. Which is why this discussion is such a waste of time. I accept the fact that God is One, which is your position, but you cannot(?) accept the fact that three distinct personalities represent the Godhead throughout Scripture. God IS who He reveals Himself to BE, and not what our finite minds say He is. He reveals Himself as One God (the LOGOS was God) and He reveals Himself in a distinctively different way, in the same verse, when He says, "the LOGOS was with God". You hold up your index finger and blind yourself to the rest of the evidence. William
Paul said this is a mystery: 16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Tim. 3:16 To me another proof that Elohim is not meant to indicate God being more than one is the Greek counterpart Theos. Theos is not plural. It is singular. If Elohim was trying to show more than one EL it would be reflected by the New Testament Greek. As it stands I believe YHWH came into this world in the flesh. Trinitarians believe the non existant second person of God came in the flesh. This is the mystery (hidden truth) Paul wrote of. 6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 It was THE MIGHTY GOD who came in flesh. EL Gabbor. EL of course the singular root of Eloah from which comes Elohim. It was the EVERLASTING FATHER himself! The doctrine of the Messiah is spelled out clearly in Isaiah 9:6. In short when read it says the Messiah is the Son given who is the Mighty God, Eternal Father! To be the Messiah Yeshua had to be BOTH. The Father and the Son.
Why do you conveniently leave out the "IS" part of the picture? As I have said all along, you are willfully blind, seeing only what you want to see. William
Moulder, You said: No the term "Yeshua" isn't plural, but the point is that you, as a modalist, one who believes that Jesus/Yeshua is the Name for the "one" God, ought not to have any problem substituting His name in this verse. Me: Hmmm I thought you agreed that the NAME of the Father, Son, and Spirit in Matthew 28:19 is Jesus? If it is not it certainly would be error to baptize that way.
moulder wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 10:54 Why do you conveniently leave out the "IS" part of the picture? As I have said all along, you are willfully blind, seeing only what you want to see. William What do you mean by IS? That Yeshua IS both Father and Son? If so thats the whole point.
Now you are starting to sound like Clinton...
Michael, are you just trying to bait me? Quote: Hmmm I thought you agreed that the NAME of the Father, Son, and Spirit in Matthew 28:19 is Jesus? If it is not it certainly would be error to baptize that way. When Jesus says baptize in the "name", and the Apostles baptized using "Jesus", then to baptize using a "title" might be a little odd don't you think? William
I'm not going to jump back into this conversation, because I think it is fruitless. However, I have to make one statement regarding your use of Isaiah 9:6, where Jesus is referred to as "Everlasting Father." The actual way that should be translated is "Father of Eternity." There is a huge difference between "everlasting Father" and "Father of Eternity." I do agree that Jesus is the Father of Eternity. The Bible states that everything was made "by Him, for Him and through Him." What is clear, however, is that this passage is NOT saying that He is the Father. Duncan
Duncan wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 11:29 I'm not going to jump back into this conversation, because I think it is fruitless. However, I have to make one statement regarding your use of Isaiah 9:6, where Jesus is referred to as "Everlasting Father." The actual way that should be translated is "Father of Eternity." There is a huge difference between "everlasting Father" and "Father of Eternity." I do agree that Jesus is the Father of Eternity. The Bible states that everything was made "by Him, for Him and through Him." What is clear, however, is that this passage is NOT saying that He is the Father. Duncan Hi Duncan, A huge difference? I am just as comfortable with one as the other. There is no difference at all in saying one is the Father of Eternity or the Eternal Father that I can tell. After all Our Father is the one who is God. 10: Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10 There is only one Father. He is our God. He is eternal. The word "one" is echad.
moulder wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 11:27 Michael, are you just trying to bait me? Quote: Hmmm I thought you agreed that the NAME of the Father, Son, and Spirit in Matthew 28:19 is Jesus? If it is not it certainly would be error to baptize that way. When Jesus says baptize in the "name", and the Apostles baptized using "Jesus", then to baptize using a "title" might be a little odd don't you think? William Am I mistaken in thinking that you as a FA member were baptized in the name of Jesus? If Jesus is not the name of the Father and the Spirit why would one do such a thing? It seems like a contradiction to baptize in Jesus name if it is not THE NAME of the Father and Holy Spirit.
Like Duncan said, it is fruitless. Quote: Am I mistaken in thinking that you as a FA member were baptized in the name of Jesus? If Jesus is not the name of the Father and the Spirit why would one do such a thing? It seems like a contradiction to baptize in Jesus name if it is not THE NAME of the Father and Holy Spirit. You see contradiction; I see none. It is that simple... Jesus, as the Son of God/Father of us all/Creator of all things/the Eternal LOGOS/The Representative of the Godhead/The Name above every name, says to baptize into the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, (the only "Name" given under heaven with reference to our salvation is Jesus), and then the disciples, who heard Him, baptized in the Name, therefore baptism in the Name of Jesus seems intuitive to me. Now, if Jesus had said, (my feeble attempt to illustrate by contrast) baptize them in the Names, Ward, Beaver, and June Cleaver, then we would use those given names. Since He didn't and the only Name as opposed to a title we know is Jesus then we baptize in His name. God is bigger than our little world (words fail) so when He reveals Himself to this little speck of dust through one aspect of His triune nature, it is perfectly natural for us to make Him, that aspect of His eternal nature we know as the LOGOS/Jesus, the focal point of our devotion. (See verses below) If that was the only thing we knew about His nature, then that would be sufficient. In other words, if He had never presented His triune nature to us, then that would be the end of the matter. But when He presents the other aspects of His triune nature to us it becomes necessary for us to accept what He reveals, without coming up with fanciful interpretations (in a vain attempt to deny those other aspects of His Godhead... e.g. "Us" is referring, "out of courtesy," to the angels... give me a break!). I'm waiting for you to explain to us the secret hat trick at Jesus' baptism, and at the transfiguration. The Holy Spirit descending in a bodily shape; the voice from heaven; all the while Jesus standing in the water. Now the Gnostics wouldn't even blink an eye at this account; they know all of the secrets! Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. I'm really not looking for another fanciful answer here so don't knock yourself out. William
Quote: If that was the only thing we knew about His nature, then that would be sufficient. In other words, if He had never presented His triune nature to us, then that would be the end of the matter. But when He presents the other aspects of His triune nature to us it becomes necessary for us to accept what He reveals, without coming up with fanciful interpretations (in a vain attempt to deny those other aspects of His Godhead... e.g. "Us" is referring, "out of courtesy," to the angels... give me a break!). So here are the choices. God said let us make Man in our image out of courtesy to the Angels who's image was made after his own....OR: God said Let us make man to someone else WHO WAS GOD. Of course this would destroy the concept of One God. This is the path Trinitarians have chosen. I say he said it to Angels because NO ONE ELSE EXISTED! Quote: I'm waiting for you to explain to us the secret hat trick at Jesus' baptism, and at the transfiguration. The Holy Spirit descending in a bodily shape; the voice from heaven; all the while Jesus standing in the water. Now the Gnostics wouldn't even blink an eye at this account; they know all of the secrets! Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. I'm really not looking for another fanciful answer here so don't knock yourself out . Ok now we are making progress. You are telling WHY you believe in the Trinity. The baptism of Jesus. Therein we will find the answer to most objections to Oneness doctrine. I believe Yeshua was and is BOTH God and man. When he was on Earth whether he was being baptized or whether he was praying he was doing it AS A MAN! That of him which was Man was on Earth. That of him which was God was in Heaven. Is this scriptural? While Yeshua was standing here on Earth talking to Nicodemus he said: 13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 While Jesus was here on Earth at the very same time he was STILL IN HEAVEN! How? Because he was God and Man similtaneously. YHWH himself existing in two modes of being. Thats why Jesus prayed. If he were here as the SECOND PERSON OF GOD he would have had no need to pray. God is all knowing and all powerful. What was it that GOD THE SECOND PERSON needed? Does one God pray to another God? Then how would they be co equal? Is not the Father shown as being greater than the Son? If not why is he praying to him? And again if one person of God is praying to another person of God it destroys the Biblical concept that YHWH is one. Does the Bible teach Jesus is both God and Man? 5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Tim. 2:5 There is ONE GOD. I have never seen anyone try to say that THEOS the Greek for God is plural. If there is only one God then it must be Jesus as YHWH. 28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28 If Jesus is God he is the only God. Thats why I say Jesus is BOTH God and man. The Holy Spirit descending as a dove at Jesus baptism? Lets be clear who the Holy Spirit is. 23: But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:23-24 Verse 23 subject is the FATHER. Verse 24 still speaking of the same thing GOD IS A SPIRIT. Nothing here that introduces us to ANOTHER PERSON OF GOD. We do not go from the Father being a Spirit to a separate co equal spirit apart from him! The dove? God is omnipresent spirit. He can manifest his spirit any way he choses to do. Simply the sign of Gods favor coming upon his son. "In you I am well pleased". So the Father (Eternal Spirit) is revealing to John Baptist that this is his Son, the Messiah. Hat tricks(your words) such as God praying to God do not explain accurately in attempting to understand the interaction between the Father and Son. The error is in the thinking this is interactions between members of the Godhead instead of God and man. So the idea that Jesus baptism presents three co equal co eternal persons each one God in his own right falls flat. Does God need to be baptized or man?
Quote: Quote: William: If that was the only thing we knew about His nature, then that would be sufficient. In other words, if He had never presented His triune nature to us, then that would be the end of the matter. But when He presents the other aspects of His triune nature to us it becomes necessary for us to accept what He reveals, without coming up with fanciful interpretations (in a vain attempt to deny those other aspects of His Godhead... e.g. "Us" is referring, "out of courtesy," to the angels... give me a break!). So here are the choices. God said let us make Man in our image out of courtesy to the Angels who's image was made after his own....OR: God said Let us make man to someone else WHO WAS GOD. Now Michael, surely you can come up with another choice? I refuse to believe that a person who has written as much as you have on this subject is incapable of at least postulating another choice (even if you don't agree with it). Quote: Ok now we are making progress. You are telling WHY you believe in the Trinity. The baptism of Jesus. ARRRRRRGGGGHH! No, No, No, this isn't why I believe in the triune nature of the Godhead. And you call this progress? Quote: Thats why Jesus prayed. If he were here as the SECOND PERSON OF GOD he would have had no need to pray. God is all knowing and all powerful. What was it that GOD THE SECOND PERSON needed? Does one God pray to another God? Then how would they be co equal? Is not the Father shown as being greater than the Son? If not why is he praying to him? And again if one person of God is praying to another person of God it destroys the Biblical concept that YHWH is one. Do you really not understand? Are you really this confused? Do you know *ANYTHING* about the humanity of Jesus? Do you not understand the "εκενωσεν" (lit."He emptied Himself" KJV-"made himself of no reputation") experience? Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
moulder wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 20:08 Quote: Quote: William: If that was the only thing we knew about His nature, then that would be sufficient. In other words, if He had never presented His triune nature to us, then that would be the end of the matter. But when He presents the other aspects of His triune nature to us it becomes necessary for us to accept what He reveals, without coming up with fanciful interpretations (in a vain attempt to deny those other aspects of His Godhead... e.g. "Us" is referring, "out of courtesy," to the angels... give me a break!). So here are the choices. God said let us make Man in our image out of courtesy to the Angels who's image was made after his own....OR: God said Let us make man to someone else WHO WAS GOD. Now Michael, surely you can come up with another choice? I refuse to believe that a person who has written as much as you have on this subject is incapable of at least postulating another choice (even if you don't agree with it). Quote: Ok now we are making progress. You are telling WHY you believe in the Trinity. The baptism of Jesus. ARRRRRRGGGGHH! No, No, No, this isn't why I believe in the triune nature of the Godhead. And you call this progress? Quote: Thats why Jesus prayed. If he were here as the SECOND PERSON OF GOD he would have had no need to pray. God is all knowing and all powerful. What was it that GOD THE SECOND PERSON needed? Does one God pray to another God? Then how would they be co equal? Is not the Father shown as being greater than the Son? If not why is he praying to him? And again if one person of God is praying to another person of God it destroys the Biblical concept that YHWH is one. Do you really not understand? Are you really this confused? Do you know *ANYTHING* about the humanity of Jesus? Do you not understand the "εκενωσεν" (lit."He emptied Himself" KJV-"made himself of no reputation") experience? Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Ok I thought you were now going to explain something of why you believe in the Trinity. What was then the point of mentioning the baptism of Jesus? Many have tried to use it to promote Trinity teaching. Yes I know about the fact that the Word/Form of God was made flesh. Did you read my posts about The WORD and the Angel of YHWH? But I would like to hear what YOU think about it. And while you are at it tell me about that other option to the fact that YHWH made all things alone and by himself? 24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isaiah 44:24 Doesnt look like another co equal, co eternal person was needed to help him. Much less two of them!
Do you not see a qualitative not a mathematical oneness here with 3 eternal manifestations? Matthew 3:16-17 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He[a] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Leslie, if you'll notice this thread has be inactive since 2007. Michael had a lot of beliefs that we didn't agree with, he has been gone for several years. He isn't a JW...