Where did demons come from. Never being one to step back and be shy about rendering an opinion when one is called for I am going to put pen to paper and give mine. Of course some may characterize my opinions as shooting my mouth off but that can't be helped. Before I do here is some background info and some thoughts on the whole subject. I really started wondering about the subject as I put my OT theology notes up. Because the subject was addressed there. Bro. Freemans opinion according to the notes is . . . If God had wanted us to know where demons came from he would have told us. The bible just assumes their existence. Without trying to be critical I think that is ridiculous. There are copious amounts of material about spiritual personalities and the spiritual world in the bible. Why put it all in there if God doesn't want us to know things. Obviously it doesn't directly tell us where they came from but what is wrong with applying some thought and reason to the subject? The whole subject of theology comes from thought and reason. Obviously based on the bible but much is derived facts based on reason. There are several cautions in the bible on the subject. Here is one. Col.2/18 . . . and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen vainly puffed up with his fleshly mind. In other words we are to be careful how we deal with subject and not get obsessed and off on tangents. Or too far into speculation. But we aren't doing that only taking a careful look at the subject. Various Theories From the theology notes with some added info from me. It should also be noted that Bro. Freeman didn't believe any of these were correct. a) Demons are fallen angels. This comes out of the book of Enoch in the apocrypha. The problem is in the bible there are demons and fallen angels. Jesus never cast out fallen angels. People really need to be careful here. I read all the time of people mixing these things up. Calling Satan who is one of the cherubim an angel for eg. b) They are a fallen pre-adamic race of men. In other words there were people who lived on the earth before Adam was created. The spirits of those people are the demons. The gap theory falls in here as well as some who teach an "old earth". Neanderthal as a separate intelligent species more or less equal to men. And more. The problem with all that is none of it is in the bible. Not the place to discuss gap theory etc so I will leave it at that. c) Josephus said demons are the spirits of the wicked dead. I haven't had a chance to read Josephus yet so I'm just going by what HEF said. Point being I don 't know how serious he was in making the statement. For our purposes that is refuted all through the bible. d) Jewish tradition has it that demons are the offspring of Adam and Lilith (a female demon). That is a ludicrous position at least for anyone with a sound appreciation of scripture. e) The giants (nephilim) of Gen 6 died in the flood and became demons. I found this on the internet and heard it from family as well. I think as did Hef that this was referring to their inward nature. Rather than physical size. Apparently this has been making the rounds of the charismatic world for some time. I'm not going to address this except to say I disagree. So where did they come from? Here's my answer. Let me say right off that it isn't very satisfactory as I don't have all the answers. This world was made for us. In fact the whole universe. Gods initial plan was for us humans was to procreate and eventually inhabit the entire universe. I think that they all came out of the spiritual world. Why? Probably as part of the curse. Nothing else fits. There is one scripture that alludes to it. Rev.12/4 His tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth. I think this is a clear reference to where they came from. If we take the very conservative position of Gen 1 being the absolute beginning of our universe and world (as we should) then there was no place or position for them prior to the fall. So if they came after the fall as they obviously did then where did they come from? There was nothing in this world for them to come from. So as I say it isn't a very satisfactory answer. It leaves me with a lot of questions. Which I don't intend to start speculating about. But nothing else fits the facts. They weren't here before us as there was nothing before us. They didn't have their origin here as it isn't their world. Its ours. So they had to have come here from somewhere else. And the only somewhere else is the spiritual world (which I'm going to talk about in another post below) One question or problem I have with my own thoughts on the matter is why do some demons want to inhabit people. Live inside them. Craving a body. That would almost suggest that one of the false theories stated above is correct. eg the spirits of wicked men from the past. I don't believe that I just don't have an answer.
The word "heaven" is a generic term. A catch all phrase. It isn't meant to be a clear concise description of a specific place. Heaven or the spiritual realm is filled with realms, dominions, universes, kingdoms, spheres, domains. In my opinion there are too many for a human to easily count. And there are ways to travel between them. All of them filled with personalities we know nothing about. One of Billy Grahams preacher kids thinks heaven is a planet somewhere in our universe. Again without trying to be critical that is a very simple opinion. I don't think people really understand how big God actually is. Ask him to show you. As I have said before our universe as big as it is really is just a small neighborhood park compared to everything else there is. AND there are spiritual personalities that see it as a small neighborhood park . "Demons" likewise is a generic term. A catchall term. The bible speaks of many different kinds and those who study these things or are gifted know of lots more. Here are a few spoken of in the bible. I'm not going to explain these just list them and not comment further except to say these are not mythical creatures or someones imagination. It is speaking of spiritual personalities. Demons! 1. The Shedim—demons with rooster feet that Hef talked about in the OT notes 2. The screech owl- night hag- name of a female night demon . Lilith 3. Leviathan the piercing serpent – leviathan that crooked serpent - Isaiah 27/1-2 4. The dragon is not Leviathan Isaiah 27/2 5. The cockatrice – Is.59/5 6. Fiery flying serpents – Is.14/29 They may or may not be the cockatrice 7. Satyrs - OT notes 8. Rahab – name of an mythical (?) sea monster - Is. 51/9 Psalm 89/10 9. Hornet - The word refers to a mythical (?) creature – the smasher Ex.23/28 A couple of other notes. In this world there are various species of creatures. Cats for eg. The top of the heap would be the lion/tiger right down to the house cat. Varying in abilities strength and intelligence. But all of the same " order". It is exactly the same with all the other personalities in the spiritual realm. There are various "classes and orders" consisting of many types of personality in the same class. Just like Cats. Seraphim for eg The ones in Isaiah 6 would be the top of the heap. There are others of that class mentioned in the bible and lots in the world. All varying in strength ability and intelligence. In my opinion the Phoenix of Greece and Rome are of Seraphim order. As well as the mythical (?) dragons spoken of around the world. Or Angels. We have the archangels noted in scripture. Gabriel and Michael. Michael is said to be "one of" the chief princes. Dan. 10/13 Here is another one Rev. 18/1. Apparently not just an ordinary angel. Great power and great glory. Here is another one. Rev. 10/1 again apparently not just an ordinary angel but someone with more authority and power. Some think this is Jesus. I would disagree. My point here is there are angels created with more strength ability and intelligence than others. Varying personalities within the same class. Another issue worth noting is that sin is personal. Not all the angels sinned. Some did and some didn't. It is exactly the same with all the other personalities God made. Some did and some didn't. Some of the cherubim did and some didn't. Some of the class of the Seraphim did and some didn't. Same with all the other classes and orders. For that matter it is same with humanity. Some are saved and some aren't. My point is that some of what we call demons are many different classes and orders of beings and some sinned and some didn't. Some fell into the devils camp because of sin (we call them demons) and some didn't sin and stayed in Gods. We have both active in our world
What about the devil? Where did he come from? Ezek. 28/11-19 Satan was named Lucifer. Light bearer. Satan is the hebrew name for adversary. When it is used of the devil it has the definite article in front of it. "The" adversary. He was one of the cherubim and apparently an exalted one as he had privileges no one else had. Ezek. 28/14 walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire ie: he was free to move about in the presence of God. He must have been highly placed among the cherubim. Maybe even top dog. I think as far as the hierarchy of power and authority in heaven is concerned he was second or third tier. But among the cherubim he was in the top tier. Probably one of several. 28/16 says he was the covering cherub. Vs 12-13 perfect in beauty. Someone said and (I agree with) that all the creative energy and wisdom of God went into creating him. The most beautiful creature ever. vs 17 it was because of his great beauty that he sinned. His beauty corrupted his intelligence. He saw what sin was as a possibility and sin being what it is it tempted him and he gave into it. He saw himself sitting in the highest place as God. Possibly replacing God. If he didn't think he had a chance he never would have tried. Isaiah 14/13-14 - The 5 I wills of Satan 1. I will ascend into heaven 2. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. Stars being other spiritual personalities 3. I will sit upon the mount of congregation 4. I will ascend above the heights 5. I will be like the most high But before all this there was a time in Heaven when it was good times and love and glory. Everyone loved the Lord. He was seen as great and glorious but also in a sense as a kindly old man. He was God and everyone worshiped him. All peaceful and enjoyable. Nothing to mar the absolute peacefulness and perfection of heaven. Then when Satan who was very close to the Lord and in his very presence sinned the wrath of God erupted. No one had ever seen anything like it before. Everyone fled in fear and terror. The cherubim and the great princes archangels and all the myriads of personalities around the throne. All of Heaven saw God in a way they never had before. They found out what the fear of God was. It was such an eruption of wrath they fled in total mindless panic. As they calmed down (probably over a long period of time) their reason came back to them and they looked at and thought about what they seen and experienced. The Holy Spirit began to draw them back probably starting with the great princes. Drew them back into the presence of God. They now knew what sin was and what the fear of God was. Their perception and understanding of God had changed forever. I am of the opinion that it was during this time when God was totally alone that the class and order of the Seraphim were created. Satan like all the rest of heaven had fled in mindless panic totally blasted through with the fear of God. Whereas everyone else in heaven saw it happen he got it directed straight at him. Thinking he was pushing a loving kindly God off his throne he found himself facing an angry righteous holy God and saw he was infinitely beyond anything he had ever conceived him to be. Infinitely greater in power righteousness holiness wrath and wisdom. Fleeing mindlessly into the furthest reaches of heaven where he was alone eventually his mind and reason returned to him. He then began to examine what had happened to him and toward him. What he had done and how it had changed him. As he thought things through he started seeing and understanding what sin was and what it does to someone (mystery of iniquity). He must have anguished and cried greatly knowing he couldn't go back. He started looking at what he had done until he understood what evil was and started seeing greater evil. He had no one to tempt him. He tempted himself by coming to realize a greater evil and sin. At first he mightily resisted sin maybe even for long long time wandering through the uninhabited furthest regions of heaven. Crying out in great anguish of spirit not wanting to be what he was. (forever cut off from God) He wanted to go back but knew he couldn't. But always eventually giving into it. He kept thinking and looking at sin and what had happened to him and understanding more and more. Trying to resist it not wanting to become more evil yet always giving into it. As he thought it through and understood more he became more and more sinful. He had no one to teach him he taught himself always eventually giving into it. Until finally after a long time he just gave up and gave himself over to it. Seeking it out and learning it until he came past the point of any desire for good and desired only evil. He examined thought tempted himself sought it out and came to a complete understanding of what evil and sin were. And he totally gave himself over to it. Oh how God must have grieved over this lost son. It was at this point that he began to lay plans to tempt to sin all the other people in heaven. Still totally alone. He chose his targets carefully. I think probably at first many fell into the temptation. Maybe even whole kingdoms. Eventually 1/3 of heaven fell into sin. It is important to understand that prior to the devils sin no one knew what sin was. They didn't know what evil was they didn't know what good was either. They were innocent. This issue worked its way through all of heaven and eventually two kingdoms began to develop. The lines between them becoming sharper and sharper until eventually there were two distinct kingdoms. This probably took ages. One kingdom given completely to righteousness and one to evil.
Mark: Quote: I think that they all came out of the spiritual world. Why? Probably as part of the curse. Nothing else fits. There is one scripture that alludes to it. I don't have an answer here but didn't we hear something along the lines that the demons were incomplete without a body? I can't say for sure that brother Freeman made that statement but it seems as if I heard it from him. If true, then it would seem that they (the demons) were at one time in some type of body (whether spiritual or physical, I don't know). Anymore thoughts? Blessings, William p.s. I know you've posted a whole lot of material so I'm not trying to just pick out one statement to keep you busy from other important stuff, but the whole subject is one where we could use some enlightenment if you've got more thoughts!
Mark: Quote: One question or problem I have with my own thoughts on the matter is why do some demons want to inhabit people. Live inside them. Craving a body. That would almost suggest that one of the false theories stated above is correct. eg the spirits of wicked men from the past. I don't believe that I just don't have an answer. I just saw this!!!
Another question I have which again I don't have an answer for is this. Why do some demons have a particular sin appetite or desire or craving for. In other words why is it a demon of anger/hate/lust/rebellion. etc. etc. They get a hold of (or in) someone and manifest their perverted desires through them. Is it because it is what they themselves are? Or do they just identify so closely with that particular sin that they become it? Is it that someone in the hierarchy assigns a particular sin to one. None of those answers really satisfy me.
I think I posted this somewhere else here but in the interest of completeness I'm putting my thoughts in here as well. I was listening to Hefs tapes on Jude and he referred to the angels that sinned. Jude 6, 11 Peter 2/4 His explanation referred those vs back to Gen 6/1-5 I would respectfully disagree. Here is my explanation. Prior to our world I think that as an understanding of sin and temptation began to be understood throughout all of heaven. Some personalities gave into it and some didn't. Heaven then eventually started to divide into two distinct kingdoms. Keep in mind that this was all new to the inhabitants of heaven. They were sorting out all the issues so to speak. Authorities and thrones being placed in both kingdoms. I think the angels that sinned (and maybe other personalities not mentioned as well) in their wickedness and striving with the other kingdom just simply went too far. Michael took an army and just went into the other kingdom and took the ones that went too far and chained them up until the final judgment. I'm sure the other kingdom got the point that there was higher authority that they had a place and sphere of activity but it was definitely limited and they had better not get out of line. Actually it is no different in our world. Those evil angels are there now with their sinful hearts life and personality just roiling and restless within them. Very limited movement. Their sinful hearts not giving them any peace. Roaring and raging in anger and terrified wrath. Wishing they weren't there. Sorry a bit of poetic lience there. I could see that in the spirit but wasn't sure how to phrase it. It is interesting to note as well that both holy and evil angels (and other personalities again like us) all started out innocent. It was the understanding and temptation to sin that brought each of them to where they are now. Holy or evil. Like in our world the resistance to sin eventually worked its way through their life and in the case of holy angels it brought them to the point they couldn't sin if they wanted to. They exist in sinless perfection but that wasn't a gift It was the work of the experience in their life. Same with demons/angels. Giving into the temptation once brought it into their life and it worked it way through their life as well to the point where they were as evil as it was possible for them to be. To put it in more graphic terms if a demon or angel was standing at the edge of the lake of fire ready to be thrown in and God said to them "turn from your sin and I won't put you in hell. They wouldn't turn. They couldn't turn. They would be unable to.
Another interesting point about chains of light. Jude 6 "everlasting chains under darkness" 11 Peter 2/4 "chains of darkness" There is lots to say here but I'm not going to get into a lot of speculation. "Light" from our world is generally from our sun but it has properties science doesn't really understand. There are also references in the bible to light that aren't really explained. Gen.1-3 There is also light in the spiritual world obviously with far more properties than here. I think the chains were made out of light or dark light (there's an oxymoron) I don't understand it but if we take it literally that is what it says. Unbreakable chains made out of light or darkness. I think personalities in the eternal lake of fire will be held there with chains of light as well. Matt. 4/13-16 another interesting vs on light. "sat in darkness ... saw great light... light is sprung up" Again I don't entirely understand it but it is literally true.
Thanks for posting Mark; I was beginning to think I had broken something in the server move! I'm still trying to digest it all before jumping in with both feet. Don't let that discourage you from posting... I am really interested in pursuing this further. Blessings, William
Mark L wrote on Sat, 30 December 2017 21:22 Where did demons come from. ...Without trying to be critical I think that is ridiculous. There are copious amounts of material about spiritual personalities and the spiritual world in the bible. Why put it all in there if God doesn't want us to know things. Obviously it doesn't directly tell us where they came from but what is wrong with applying some thought and reason to the subject? The whole subject of theology comes from thought and reason. Obviously based on the bible but much is derived facts based on reason. Well, to be fair to brother Freeman, his position did come from derived facts based upon reason and you admit that the bible doesn't tell us where they came from so one could reason from the facts that God didn't tell us... for some reason! Quote: e) The giants (nephilim) of Gen 6 died in the flood and became demons. I found this on the internet and heard it from family as well. I think as did Hef that this was referring to their inward nature. Rather than physical size. Apparently this has been making the rounds of the charismatic world for some time. I'm not going to address this except to say I disagree. Perhaps we shouldn't dismiss this too quickly. Whether or not they were giants is irrelevant--they were a hybrid offspring. Isn't it reasonable? Consider what we know about humankind. We are given the power of procreation. Our offspring are candidates for the salvation offered to us by God. If the Nephilim of Genesis 6 were the offspring of some type of angelic being and a human woman does this obligate God to offer them salvation? What happens when this type of being dies? If they have no chance of salvation (and I don't know what I'm talking about here!) could they have some other purpose? Why couldn't these make up the demonic realm? Not fully angelic, not fully human, they seem to fit the category of beings that don't fit the mold of either angels or humans... why can't this be demons? Just a little bit of my own personal reasoning thrown in here! Quote: Rev.12/4 His tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth. But there's (as far as I know) no reference to any demon in heaven, they seem to be earth-dwellers. Clearly there are angels in heaven and these often show up in the earthly realm but no mention of demons. Quote: I think this is a clear reference to where they came from. If we take the very conservative position of Gen 1 being the absolute beginning of our universe and world (as we should) then there was no place or position for them prior to the fall. So if they came after the fall as they obviously did then where did they come from? There was nothing in this world for them to come from. The Nephilim appeared after the fall. They died. Did they have 'souls'? Souls that couldn't be saved? I think that it makes just as much sense as this being their origin as the one you are making. Quote: They didn't have their origin here as it isn't their world. Its ours. The Nephilim had their origin here. No mention of them before Gen 6. And since they seem to fall into the category of originating from a group that obviously was in opposition to God... a group that, as far as I know, had no promise of redemption... and since they were half-human presumably having a life-source that didn't die when their flesh died (i.e. souls) why couldn't this be demons? The demons know their fate and are allowed to operate in our realm--how does this not fit? Quote: One question or problem I have with my own thoughts on the matter is why do some demons want to inhabit people. Live inside them. Craving a body. That would almost suggest that one of the false theories stated above is correct. eg the spirits of wicked men from the past. I don't believe that I just don't have an answer. Yikes, this is making more and more sense... craving a body... almost like us [2Co 5:2 KJV] 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
william wrote on Sun, 13 October 2019 02:43 Thanks for posting Mark; I was beginning to think I had broken something in the server move! Blessings, William I first logged in and saw the green I thought it was my computer.
william wrote on Sun, 13 October 2019 09:19 . . . they were a hybrid offspring. I don't think they were hybrid offspring. I think they were completely human. I think all the spiritual beings that have anything to do with our world have the ability to to take on a human body or manifest themselves physically in human form. As such their offspring would have souls and be human in every sense of the word as they are procreated in the same way everyone else is. As well as that they (speaking of demons and various spiritual personalities) can have themselves placed into a human womb and be born as human and live a human life (like our Son of God did) Yet still keeping their essential nature. I don't have all the answers to this. I do know they do it and it is fairly common. In the occult they are called "walk ins" Some of the big music stars are as well as ordinary people AND one "very" well known and current JDS charismatic mega minister. Yes its probably the one you're thinking of. Bro Freeman called him an angel of light. Again big subject let me just say when they do this they are limited to human intelligence and abilities. I also know about one other minister who fits in here who founded a charismatic/Pentecostal megachurch and has now passed from the scene. The "Sons of God". I don't believe these are angels. I'll put why in another post. I think they are a specific class of spiritual personality that like everyone else started out innocent and then yielded to or resisted temptation. So there are some in each kingdom. The word sons to me indicates they have a closer relationship to God them maybe a lot of the others spiritual personalities do. We are called sons for eg. We see them in Job 38/7 Morning Stars and Sons of God two different kinds of spiritual personalities. Both present as God created . I don't believe they were there as spectators either. Once the original creation was done they probably were busy putting things together. Obviously these Sons of God were the ones who resisted temptation and stayed in the kingdom. We also see them in Job.1/6, 2/1 Satan here is coming before the Lord to give a report of matters he was responsible for and he came in the company of personalities he was comfortable around. In other words the same general intelligence and abilities he had. Gen 6. I think the Sons of God here are a class of spiritual personality who have authority and bureaucratic responsibility for the orderly running of some aspects of our world. Responsible to Satan who is responsible to God . Big subject. I don't get the impression from the passage that there are a whole lot of them here as they would have created a whole new race which would have taken over the world rather than individuals who really stood out. Keeping in mind here my thought that they took on human form and procreated in the usual way. The use of the word "wives" indicates to me that it was more than a passing fancy. As rape for eg. But a continuing long term relationship. Probably moving back and forth between each world. Big subject not a lot of info given. Sure is interesting though.
Were they able to partake of the redemption plan? Another statement: Quote: I don't get the impression from the passage that there are a whole lot of them here as they would have created a whole new race which would have taken over the world rather than individuals who really stood out. Could this be a part of the puzzle that led to the flood? Blessings, William
Just so ya know I'm still paying attention I'll throw in what came to mind as I was reading the exchange of thoughts. Demons, "craving a body..." It's obvious to me that they absolutely crave a body to inhabit. I think that's the reason they're so hard to get rid of in so many cases...Jesus once told His disciples, who had failed in their attempt to deliver the young boy(Mark 9:29) , that this kind only went out by prayer and fasting. No quick command to come out in the Name of Jesus, but with spiritual warfare, prayer and fasting. They didn't want to leave, they fought with all their might against the deliverance, throwing the kid into the fire and causing him to convulse. Jesus said that when the house and been cleaned to keep it cleaned because they will try to return with seven more and cause more trouble than before. ( Matt.12:44-45 ) I'm thinking "a demon behind every bush" isn't nearly as big a problem as a demon inhabiting people is, they're probably more effective at fulfilling Satan's plans that way. I guess I don't know so much about their origin, but I am aware of their existence and see the manifestation of their presence in people regularly.
Mark L wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 14:29 I'm up to an iphone 6. Traded up from my iphone 4. I'm determined not to be one of those people who walk around staring at their phones all day long. Bluetooth in the car is very useful though and very easy to set up. Gary wrote on Thu, 26 December 2019 13:38 In the scripture you shared it mentioned a cockatrice den, I wondered what a cockatrice was, turns out its a mystical creature that would stare at someone and they would die. LOL Several chapters later I was reading awhile back and it mentioned a fiery flying serpent. I looked this up and some believe there is still a serpent that can fly, its bite is deadly. The article said they existed in some countries. I could not find out to much information on them so I don't know if their real. They are mentioned several times in scripture. Those are both real demonic creatures. Thats why they are mentioned in the bible. I did some study on that stuff a while ago. I'm not worried about the Cockatrice stare sending me off though. As I recall off the top of my head the fiery flying serpent is of the order of the Seraphim. Hi Mark, I read your post on; "Where do demons come from," I thought it was interesting. In fact I just copied this post I'm writing from Tech news to over here. I think God has a purpose in that He only gave us limited information about some subjects. You approached the subject of demons but there are other situations in scripture as well. For instance, after Cain went out and killed his brother and God had spoke to him, it says in scripture he went out from the Lord's presence and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. It says then that he knew his wife and she bare Enoch. Next we see Lamech telling his two wives that he killed two men. We start seeing more and more people in the narrative. Then the scriptures tells us Eve bore Seth. The question is where did so many people start arriving on the scene. Did Eve conceive one child after another? This is what I mean that there are gaps and that we do not have all the information. Next there is giants, sons of God, etc. Did Eve have children who grew to be giants? And the sons of God the Bible addresses they were mighty men of old and were men of renown. I think (only an opinion), that in heaven there was men as angels who were never born on Earth but was part of the created angels in heaven. When satan took 1/3 of those in heaven part of them were these men that followed him and rebelled. We realize this is clearly speculation, and God has not given us complete information or we would have a whole library of books. Your subject on demons is more appropriate because we still are dealing today with these entities out there who are trying to deceive mankind. I just wanted to point out other gaps of information that exists in scripture. In the New Testament demons were constantly manifesting and we see that the people of that time have knowledge of their existence. When Jesus came He gave men (Christians), the ability to deal with them in peoples lives. I believe God protects us from the evil one and in fact we are protected from all evil as we abide under the shadow of His Wings. If Christians open doors and follow the path of the world I think then that demons can have access. With all that said, I think that during the great tribulation the fiery serpents will come forth in the judgment that will take place, on a larger scale. If you look at the Hindu religion in India a lot of those people are horribly bound. I was talking to this man who came back from India, and I told him that Christianity was moving throughout India, immediately I sensed a huge wall (in the Spirit), between him and me and he said he thought Christianity was dying out. I knew then it was a strong Hindu spirit in this man. There is strong spirits of delusion moving throughout the world at this time. God says He will give men over to a spirit of delusion in the last days because they love not the truth. I had a book once on demonology by Lester Sumerall, (which I threw it away for certain reasons), he had documented a number of cases in foreign lands that he saw. In one situation he saw a young boy that could turn invisible before your eyes. They cast the spirit out and the boy was made whole and was delivered. I think in countries that are industrialized and educated demons stay more out of the lime light and are hidden. Any rate interesting subject. In Him, Gary
Mark We start seeing more and more people in the narrative. Then the scriptures tells us Eve bore Seth. The question is where did so many people start arriving on the scene. Did Eve conceive one child after another? This is what I mean that there are gaps and that we do not have all the information. Next there is giants, sons of God, etc. Did Eve have children who grew to be giants? Before I get started I was not thinking correctly here. Eve was the mother of all living. I was thinking in the back of my mind that maybe the Lord had created other people outside of Adam and Eve in the garden. All things are possible with God and He can work through Adam and Eve to populate the earth before the flood. Reading on ahead through the Old Testament, we see Noah his wife, and three sons and their wives in scripture, then we can read nations were formed from them after the flood. People multiplied quickly on the earth. The giants I'm thinking came from the sons of God who took wives from women on the earth as the scriptures shows. With that out of the way, I ran across an article that I had never heard before. This article said: The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;[1] Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ maṣḥafa hēnok) is an ancient Hebrew apocalyptic religious text, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah.[2][3] Enoch contains unique material on the origins of demons and giants, why some angels fell from heaven, an explanation of why the Great Flood was morally necessary, and prophetic exposition of the thousand-year reign of the Messiah. While not knowing much about this book, I was wondering how a manuscript could survive the flood. Then I remembered Enoch was the great grandfather of Noah, so its possible that Noah could of had some manuscripts on the Ark. The article mentioned that the original Hebrew manuscript was lost over time, but there was some fragments in with the information of the dead sea scrolls. There are other manuscripts written in another language. Eusebius in the 3rd or fourth century said; that the end time prophecy in the book of Jude was quoted out of the Book of Enoch. If true its interesting that Jude would quote this from the Book of Enoch. I'm not promoting this book as some answer to the question here of the origin of demons, but HF said; that there was other writings and he mentioned the books called, the Apocrypha and the Pseudepigrapha and he said they had some interesting history mixed with a lot of fiction. I have read both of these but never the Book of Enoch. I don't know if you have read this book but it sounds interesting. Here is the Article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch These days its rare that we would see spirits manifesting in any of the churches around the country. Early on when I was first saved I remember demonic spirits crying out of people in different Charismatics churches. Someone told me that when they were a small child they remember the preacher at a Pentecostal church cast a devil out of a woman and she had her arms at her sides and she crawled up the aisle of the church like a snake, then the demons left her. Also, a lot of people came forward that night for salvation. In this day and age we are seeing more people turning to Hinduism practicing yoga and getting involved heavily in occult practices. A lot of churches and medical science are promoting yoga as well, saying its the pathway to health. A person who is sick and in pain will walk through any door to get healed. One last thing, after the flood, these sons of God could of took women as before, (this might be the ones that in the book of Jude were reserved in chains, etc.), otherwise the Anakim would of survived the flood, which was not possible. They were shown to be on the earth, clear up to the time of Saul and David. Any rate just wanted to share some thoughts on it, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I just enjoy discussing the Bible. Thought you might be interested in the article, I was looking something else up and found it by accident. In Him, Gary
Quote: They were shown to be on the earth, clear up to the time of Saul and David. Any rate just wanted to share some thoughts on it, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I just enjoy discussing the Bible. There are accounts of giants all the way up to our day--Skeletons, etc.. Blessings, William
I don't know what standard would be used to determine if someone is a giant, I would think not only height but also bulk. There are several basketball players in our time over 7 feet 5 inches, but are on the slender side. The guy Guinness BWR lists as tallest in modern times , Robert Wadlow, was 8 feet 11 inches, but skinny. I think of a giant as a Goliath type, big and intimidating.
william wrote on Tue, 14 January 2020 19:12 Quote: They were shown to be on the earth, clear up to the time of Saul and David. Any rate just wanted to share some thoughts on it, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I just enjoy discussing the Bible. There are accounts of giants all the way up to our day--Skeletons, etc.. Blessings, William Yeah, most of them play Basketball for a living . Actually everybody is making a good point here. I was reading the Old Testament and in Exodus 37 Then Bezalel made the ark of acacia wood; two and a half cubits was its length, a cubit and a half its width, and a cubit and a half its height. 2 He overlaid it with pure gold inside and outside, and made a molding of gold all around it. 3 And he cast for it four rings of gold to be set in its four corners: two rings on one side, and two rings on the other side of it. 4 He made poles of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold. 5 And he put the poles into the rings at the sides of the ark, to bear the ark. 6 He also made the mercy seat of pure gold; two and a half cubits was its length and a cubit and a half its width. Bear with me I'll get to the point here. I was reading about the ark in Exodus, so I tried to picture in my mind the size of it in feet and inches. Being a carpenter most of my life if I can visualize the measurements on a project I can get a better idea of its size. You'll probably appreciate this William being a woodworker. I went to try and find out how much a Cubit was so I could see the size of the Ark, again in feet and inches. Everybody had a different opinion on this measurement. One guy said, it was 20.4 inches and that is what Noah used, and that when Noah got off the boat he was the only one in the New world that would know the true measurement. How he came up with this I don't know. If Noah used 20.4. The article went on to say that people measured from their elbow to the tip of their finger to come up with this unit of measure. Then Noah must of been a fairly good size man. I measured my elbow to the tip of my finger and came up with 18.5 inches. I don't see how this idea is accurate because everybody could have a different measurement. Its not like feet and inches set on a tape measure, where its always the same. Then the article said that some people believe Goliath was 6'8" tall while others thought he was closer to 10' tall. I cannot imagine the armies of Israel terrified at a man who was 6'8" tall running his mouth and defying them. Saul was a tall man he probably would have no problems fighting Goliath if what some say is true. But if a man 10' tall was out there defying Israel it might make someone think twice before going down to fight this guy. Goliath must of been totally shocked when a small boy comes out of the crowd and doesn't back down. I'm pretty sure he thought this kid wouldn't be alive long. Anyway concerning the giants, the Anakim, and anything in the Bible that tells its size in cubits. Is there a correct measurement for the Cubit or is it something that everyone just guesses at? Someone mentioned in the same article that they had a long cubit and a short cubit measurement back in Bible times, and that they used the long cubit for large projects. Noah supposedly used the long cubit measurement when building the Ark. I thought if someone could measure the temple foundation stones they could convert into feet and have a half way decent chance at a correct measurement. That was the other thing, they said in other cultures their cubit was different from Israels cubit. There are enough measurements given in the Bible of things that still exist today, that should give the correct size to convert it to our measurements, I would think. It would be interesting to know if someone has the real size of the cubit. In Him, Gary
How did the devil sin? Ezek. 28/11-19 Isaiah 14/ 12-15 It is Satan being referred to in both places. It mentions several times he was created not born. So it isn't referring to the actual person mentioned. Apparently his original name was Lucifer son of the morning. The name Satan is just a Hebrew word that means adversary. It is referring to him personally when used with the definite article "The" Adversary Ezek. 28 He held an exalted position among the Cherubim. The "anointed" Cherub that "covered" "walked up and down" freedom of movement. Very unusual. In a special place. "stones of fire" "perfect in beauty" the most beautiful personality that had ever existed. I think the jewels and gems mentioned are earthly representations of spiritual realities. The same with tabrets and pipes. All were some kind of covering over him. The reference to tabrets and pipes probably refer to music of some kind. Maybe among other responsibilities he was in charge of the worship. Although I think that is a very shallow and superficial way of looking at something that was probably very deep. His influence and awareness and maybe his work must have extended over all the realm where Gods throne was. And probably to some degree over all the realms of heaven. He must have been a highly exalted personality. But as I show later he wasn't the highest. How did the devil sin? There was a time in Heaven when it was good times and love and glory. Everyone loved the Lord. He was seen as great and glorious but also in a sense as a kindly old man. He was God and everyone worshiped him. All peaceful and enjoyable. Nothing to mar the absolute peacefulness and perfection of heaven. There was no awareness of sin or evil. Nor of good. They were innocent. So how did he sin? I think it started with a very small uncomfortable feeling deep in his heart. He was aware of his great beauty. But the feeling was he should take a closer look at it. (his beauty) He didn't really understand this feeling. Or even really like it. But it just persisted. There deep in his heart. In looking at it and examining it he became dimly aware it wasn't right and that something was wrong about it. As he looked and wondered and examined the feeling kept growing. I think this went on for quite a long time. The feeling was that with his great beauty and wisdom he should have a better place. Higher and more glorious. Eventually he understood that it wasn't just just something wrong but sinful and evil. He began to look and understand and comprehend what sin was. He was beginning to move past that state of innocence. As he comprehended and thought and examined the feeling kept growing. At some point he must have become aware that he couldn't keep allowing this feeling to grow. But maybe it was just too interesting. At this point he knew that this was sinful and evil but it was becoming strong in his heart. He began resisting it but it was still strong. The desire to have more. He deserved more. Look how beautiful I am. Don't I deserve better. Up to this point he still hadn't sinned. It was still a feeling in his heart. A very strong feeling but still only a feeling. Pulling him drawing him tempting him. Look at yourself! How beautiful you are. You're head and shoulders above everyone else. I should have the very best position. Right beside God himself. He should have started resisting when he first realized what it was. Sinful and evil. But when he didn't the feeling just got too strong. It filled his heart and he finally just gave into it. Looked at how beautiful he was and reached out to occupy the highest place. Vs 16 "by the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence His sin must have more of an effect than just filling his heart. From the way it is worded it must have affected his entire being and everything and everyone around him. In other words it had a devastating effect on him. "multitude of thy merchandise" "filled the midst of thee with violence" It was more than just a simple temptation and a look at himself. The way it is worded it must have been like a nuclear explosion in the midst of Heaven. I think it is quite likely that the sin its effect and the result (God's wrath) were seen in some way and experienced in all the realms of heaven When Lucifer who was very close to the Lord and in his very presence sinned the wrath of God erupted. No one had ever seen anything like it before. Everyone fled in fear and terror. The cherubim and the great princes archangels and all the myriads of personalities around the throne. All of Heaven saw God in a way they never had before. They found out what the fear of God was. It was such an eruption of wrath they fled in total mindless panic. They all saw it but he got it full blast directed right at him. A couple more thoughts If he now had the opportunity to turn away from being evil. He not only couldn't but wouldn't. He is as evil as it is possible for him to be. He would like to be spared the lake of fire but turning back is something he is not capable of. Even if it was possible. But more than that he wouldn't. Because he likes himself the way he is. I do think he has one regret. Not so much that he can't go back. But that he can't go back to the stones of fire. Its mentioned two times. Ezek. 28/13,16. I'm not sure the stones of fire even exist anymore. I think they were created specially for him. During the time God was completely alone his entire throne room (if you want to use that word) was recreated. The class and order of the Seraphim were created. New personalities with new responsibilities. Some in the christian world believe he occupied the highest position in heaven. Here are three reasons why I think they are wrong A/ If he was already the highest he wouldn't be looking for a higher place Isaiah 14/13-14 - The five I wills of Satan 1. I will ascend into heaven 2. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. Stars being other spiritual personalities 3. I will sit upon the mount of congregation 4. I will ascend above the heights 5. I will be like the most high B/ Michael the arch angel would not allow him to take Moses body. So he is stronger than the devil. Jude 9 Also it was an angel that took hold of the Devil and cast him into the abyss during the millennium. Rev. 20/1 C/ Because he fits into the class of "Sons of God" A group that encompasses many different kinds of spiritual personality. Differing responsibilities abilities talents intelligence strength. But all within the same general "rank" Job 1/6 , 2/1 He came to present himself to the Lord with the group he felt comfortable among. I think this group "Sons of God" is a lower tier of authority in Gods kingdom.
Thanks for giving us something to think about, today. I'd never considered that he (Satan) wasn't the highest of the created order... got to go back and reframe that one! Blessings, William