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description: Fast Uncompromising Discussions.
items: Where did Demons Come From?
items: Re: Where did . . .
items: How did the devil sin?
items: Re: How did the devil sin?

Where did Demons Come From?
type: item
description: Where did demons come from. Never being one to step back and be shy about rendering an opinion when one is called for I am going to put pen to paper and give mine. Of course some may characterize my opinions as shooting my mouth off but that can't be helped. Before I do here is some background info and some thoughts on the whole subject. I really started wondering about the subject as I put my OT theology notes up. Because the subject was addressed there. Bro. Freemans opinion according to the notes is . . . If God had wanted us to know where demons came from he would have told us. The bible just assumes their existence. Without trying to be critical I think that is ridiculous. There are copious amounts of material about spiritual personalities and the spiritual world in the bible. Why put it all in there if God doesn't want us to know things. Obviously it doesn't directly tell us where they came from but what is wrong with applying some thought and reason to the subject? The whole subject of theology comes from thought and reason. Obviously based on the bible but much is derived facts based on reason. There are several cautions in the bible on the subject. Here is one. Col.2/18 . . . and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen vainly puffed up with his fleshly mind. In other words we are to be careful how we deal with subject and not get obsessed and off on tangents. Or too far into speculation. But we aren't doing that only taking a careful look at the subject. Various Theories From the theology notes with some added info from me. It should also be noted that Bro. Freeman didn't believe any of these were correct. a) Demons are fallen angels. This comes out of the book of Enoch in the apocrypha. The problem is in the bible there are demons and fallen angels. Jesus never cast out fallen angels. People really need to be careful here. I read all the time of people mixing these things up. Calling Satan who is one of the cherubim an ange…
creator: Mark L
date: 2017-12-30T21:22:36-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: The word "heaven" is a generic term. A catch all phrase. It isn't meant to be a clear concise description of a specific place. Heaven or the spiritual realm is filled with realms, dominions, universes, kingdoms, spheres, domains. In my opinion there are too many for a human to easily count. And there are ways to travel between them. All of them filled with personalities we know nothing about. One of Billy Grahams preacher kids thinks heaven is a planet somewhere in our universe. Again without trying to be critical that is a very simple opinion. I don't think people really understand how big God actually is. Ask him to show you. As I have said before our universe as big as it is really is just a small neighborhood park compared to everything else there is. AND there are spiritual personalities that see it as a small neighborhood park . "Demons" likewise is a generic term. A catchall term. The bible speaks of many different kinds and those who study these things or are gifted know of lots more. Here are a few spoken of in the bible. I'm not going to explain these just list them and not comment further except to say these are not mythical creatures or someones imagination. It is speaking of spiritual personalities. Demons! 1. The Shedim—demons with rooster feet that Hef talked about in the OT notes 2. The screech owl- night hag- name of a female night demon . Lilith 3. Leviathan the piercing serpent – leviathan that crooked serpent - Isaiah 27/1-2 4. The dragon is not Leviathan Isaiah 27/2 5. The cockatrice – Is.59/5 6. Fiery flying serpents – Is.14/29 They may or may not be the cockatrice 7. Satyrs - OT notes 8. Rahab – name of an mythical (?) sea monster - Is. 51/9 Psalm 89/10 9. Hornet - The word refers to a mythical (?) creature – the smasher Ex.23/28 A couple of other notes. In this world there are various species of creatures. Cats for eg. The top of the heap would be the lion/tiger right down to the house cat. Varying in abilities strength and intelligence. But …
creator: Mark L
date: 2017-12-30T21:41:40-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: What about the devil? Where did he come from? Ezek. 28/11-19 Satan was named Lucifer. Light bearer. Satan is the hebrew name for adversary. When it is used of the devil it has the definite article in front of it. "The" adversary. He was one of the cherubim and apparently an exalted one as he had privileges no one else had. Ezek. 28/14 walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire ie: he was free to move about in the presence of God. He must have been highly placed among the cherubim. Maybe even top dog. I think as far as the hierarchy of power and authority in heaven is concerned he was second or third tier. But among the cherubim he was in the top tier. Probably one of several. 28/16 says he was the covering cherub. Vs 12-13 perfect in beauty. Someone said and (I agree with) that all the creative energy and wisdom of God went into creating him. The most beautiful creature ever. vs 17 it was because of his great beauty that he sinned. His beauty corrupted his intelligence. He saw what sin was as a possibility and sin being what it is it tempted him and he gave into it. He saw himself sitting in the highest place as God. Possibly replacing God. If he didn't think he had a chance he never would have tried. Isaiah 14/13-14 - The 5 I wills of Satan 1. I will ascend into heaven 2. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. Stars being other spiritual personalities 3. I will sit upon the mount of congregation 4. I will ascend above the heights 5. I will be like the most high But before all this there was a time in Heaven when it was good times and love and glory. Everyone loved the Lord. He was seen as great and glorious but also in a sense as a kindly old man. He was God and everyone worshiped him. All peaceful and enjoyable. Nothing to mar the absolute peacefulness and perfection of heaven. Then when Satan who was very close to the Lord and in his very presence sinned the wrath of God erupted. No one had ever seen anything like it before. Everyone fled in fe…
creator: Mark L
date: 2017-12-31T03:01:34-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: Mark: Quote: I think that they all came out of the spiritual world. Why? Probably as part of the curse. Nothing else fits. There is one scripture that alludes to it. I don't have an answer here but didn't we hear something along the lines that the demons were incomplete without a body? I can't say for sure that brother Freeman made that statement but it seems as if I heard it from him. If true, then it would seem that they (the demons) were at one time in some type of body (whether spiritual or physical, I don't know). Anymore thoughts? Blessings, William p.s. I know you've posted a whole lot of material so I'm not trying to just pick out one statement to keep you busy from other important stuff, but the whole subject is one where we could use some enlightenment if you've got more thoughts!
creator: william
date: 2018-01-01T02:18:09-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: Mark: Quote: One question or problem I have with my own thoughts on the matter is why do some demons want to inhabit people. Live inside them. Craving a body. That would almost suggest that one of the false theories stated above is correct. eg the spirits of wicked men from the past. I don't believe that I just don't have an answer. I just saw this!!!
creator: william
date: 2018-01-01T02:20:22-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: Another question I have which again I don't have an answer for is this. Why do some demons have a particular sin appetite or desire or craving for. In other words why is it a demon of anger/hate/lust/rebellion. etc. etc. They get a hold of (or in) someone and manifest their perverted desires through them. Is it because it is what they themselves are? Or do they just identify so closely with that particular sin that they become it? Is it that someone in the hierarchy assigns a particular sin to one. None of those answers really satisfy me.
creator: Mark L
date: 2018-01-21T22:40:00-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: I think I posted this somewhere else here but in the interest of completeness I'm putting my thoughts in here as well. I was listening to Hefs tapes on Jude and he referred to the angels that sinned. Jude 6, 11 Peter 2/4 His explanation referred those vs back to Gen 6/1-5 I would respectfully disagree. Here is my explanation. Prior to our world I think that as an understanding of sin and temptation began to be understood throughout all of heaven. Some personalities gave into it and some didn't. Heaven then eventually started to divide into two distinct kingdoms. Keep in mind that this was all new to the inhabitants of heaven. They were sorting out all the issues so to speak. Authorities and thrones being placed in both kingdoms. I think the angels that sinned (and maybe other personalities not mentioned as well) in their wickedness and striving with the other kingdom just simply went too far. Michael took an army and just went into the other kingdom and took the ones that went too far and chained them up until the final judgment. I'm sure the other kingdom got the point that there was higher authority that they had a place and sphere of activity but it was definitely limited and they had better not get out of line. Actually it is no different in our world. Those evil angels are there now with their sinful hearts life and personality just roiling and restless within them. Very limited movement. Their sinful hearts not giving them any peace. Roaring and raging in anger and terrified wrath. Wishing they weren't there. Sorry a bit of poetic lience there. I could see that in the spirit but wasn't sure how to phrase it. It is interesting to note as well that both holy and evil angels (and other personalities again like us) all started out innocent. It was the understanding and temptation to sin that brought each of them to where they are now. Holy or evil. Like in our world the resistance to sin eventually worked its way through their life and in the case of holy angels i…
creator: Mark L
date: 2019-10-12T16:40:06-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: Another interesting point about chains of light. Jude 6 "everlasting chains under darkness" 11 Peter 2/4 "chains of darkness" There is lots to say here but I'm not going to get into a lot of speculation. "Light" from our world is generally from our sun but it has properties science doesn't really understand. There are also references in the bible to light that aren't really explained. Gen.1-3 There is also light in the spiritual world obviously with far more properties than here. I think the chains were made out of light or dark light (there's an oxymoron) I don't understand it but if we take it literally that is what it says. Unbreakable chains made out of light or darkness. I think personalities in the eternal lake of fire will be held there with chains of light as well. Matt. 4/13-16 another interesting vs on light. "sat in darkness ... saw great light... light is sprung up" Again I don't entirely understand it but it is literally true.
creator: Mark L
date: 2019-10-12T16:49:10-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: Thanks for posting Mark; I was beginning to think I had broken something in the server move! I'm still trying to digest it all before jumping in with both feet. Don't let that discourage you from posting... I am really interested in pursuing this further. Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2019-10-13T02:43:22-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: Mark L wrote on Sat, 30 December 2017 21:22 Where did demons come from. ...Without trying to be critical I think that is ridiculous. There are copious amounts of material about spiritual personalities and the spiritual world in the bible. Why put it all in there if God doesn't want us to know things. Obviously it doesn't directly tell us where they came from but what is wrong with applying some thought and reason to the subject? The whole subject of theology comes from thought and reason. Obviously based on the bible but much is derived facts based on reason. Well, to be fair to brother Freeman, his position did come from derived facts based upon reason and you admit that the bible doesn't tell us where they came from so one could reason from the facts that God didn't tell us... for some reason! Quote: e) The giants (nephilim) of Gen 6 died in the flood and became demons. I found this on the internet and heard it from family as well. I think as did Hef that this was referring to their inward nature. Rather than physical size. Apparently this has been making the rounds of the charismatic world for some time. I'm not going to address this except to say I disagree. Perhaps we shouldn't dismiss this too quickly. Whether or not they were giants is irrelevant--they were a hybrid offspring. Isn't it reasonable? Consider what we know about humankind. We are given the power of procreation. Our offspring are candidates for the salvation offered to us by God. If the Nephilim of Genesis 6 were the offspring of some type of angelic being and a human woman does this obligate God to offer them salvation? What happens when this type of being dies? If they have no chance of salvation (and I don't know what I'm talking about here!) could they have some other purpose? Why couldn't these make up the demonic realm? Not fully angelic, not fully human, they seem to fit the category of beings that don't fit the mold of either angels or humans... why can't this be demons? Just a little bit …
creator: william
date: 2019-10-13T09:19:59-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: william wrote on Sun, 13 October 2019 02:43 Thanks for posting Mark; I was beginning to think I had broken something in the server move! Blessings, William I first logged in and saw the green I thought it was my computer.
creator: Mark L
date: 2019-10-14T17:59:02-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: william wrote on Sun, 13 October 2019 09:19 . . . they were a hybrid offspring. I don't think they were hybrid offspring. I think they were completely human. I think all the spiritual beings that have anything to do with our world have the ability to to take on a human body or manifest themselves physically in human form. As such their offspring would have souls and be human in every sense of the word as they are procreated in the same way everyone else is. As well as that they (speaking of demons and various spiritual personalities) can have themselves placed into a human womb and be born as human and live a human life (like our Son of God did) Yet still keeping their essential nature. I don't have all the answers to this. I do know they do it and it is fairly common. In the occult they are called "walk ins" Some of the big music stars are as well as ordinary people AND one "very" well known and current JDS charismatic mega minister. Yes its probably the one you're thinking of. Bro Freeman called him an angel of light. Again big subject let me just say when they do this they are limited to human intelligence and abilities. I also know about one other minister who fits in here who founded a charismatic/Pentecostal megachurch and has now passed from the scene. The "Sons of God". I don't believe these are angels. I'll put why in another post. I think they are a specific class of spiritual personality that like everyone else started out innocent and then yielded to or resisted temptation. So there are some in each kingdom. The word sons to me indicates they have a closer relationship to God them maybe a lot of the others spiritual personalities do. We are called sons for eg. We see them in Job 38/7 Morning Stars and Sons of God two different kinds of spiritual personalities. Both present as God created . I don't believe they were there as spectators either. Once the original creation was done they probably were busy putting things together. Obviously these Sons of God …
creator: Mark L
date: 2019-10-14T18:38:54-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: Were they able to partake of the redemption plan? Another statement: Quote: I don't get the impression from the passage that there are a whole lot of them here as they would have created a whole new race which would have taken over the world rather than individuals who really stood out. Could this be a part of the puzzle that led to the flood? Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2019-10-14T19:11:24-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: I actually had that thought too.
creator: Mark L
date: 2019-10-14T19:46:14-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
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description: Just so ya know I'm still paying attention I'll throw in what came to mind as I was reading the exchange of thoughts. Demons, "craving a body..." It's obvious to me that they absolutely crave a body to inhabit. I think that's the reason they're so hard to get rid of in so many cases...Jesus once told His disciples, who had failed in their attempt to deliver the young boy(Mark 9:29) , that this kind only went out by prayer and fasting. No quick command to come out in the Name of Jesus, but with spiritual warfare, prayer and fasting. They didn't want to leave, they fought with all their might against the deliverance, throwing the kid into the fire and causing him to convulse. Jesus said that when the house and been cleaned to keep it cleaned because they will try to return with seven more and cause more trouble than before. ( Matt.12:44-45 ) I'm thinking "a demon behind every bush" isn't nearly as big a problem as a demon inhabiting people is, they're probably more effective at fulfilling Satan's plans that way. I guess I don't know so much about their origin, but I am aware of their existence and see the manifestation of their presence in people regularly.
creator: james
date: 2019-10-16T21:04:10-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: Mark L wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 14:29 I'm up to an iphone 6. Traded up from my iphone 4. I'm determined not to be one of those people who walk around staring at their phones all day long. Bluetooth in the car is very useful though and very easy to set up. Gary wrote on Thu, 26 December 2019 13:38 In the scripture you shared it mentioned a cockatrice den, I wondered what a cockatrice was, turns out its a mystical creature that would stare at someone and they would die. LOL Several chapters later I was reading awhile back and it mentioned a fiery flying serpent. I looked this up and some believe there is still a serpent that can fly, its bite is deadly. The article said they existed in some countries. I could not find out to much information on them so I don't know if their real. They are mentioned several times in scripture. Those are both real demonic creatures. Thats why they are mentioned in the bible. I did some study on that stuff a while ago. I'm not worried about the Cockatrice stare sending me off though. As I recall off the top of my head the fiery flying serpent is of the order of the Seraphim. Hi Mark, I read your post on; "Where do demons come from," I thought it was interesting. In fact I just copied this post I'm writing from Tech news to over here. I think God has a purpose in that He only gave us limited information about some subjects. You approached the subject of demons but there are other situations in scripture as well. For instance, after Cain went out and killed his brother and God had spoke to him, it says in scripture he went out from the Lord's presence and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. It says then that he knew his wife and she bare Enoch. Next we see Lamech telling his two wives that he killed two men. We start seeing more and more people in the narrative. Then the scriptures tells us Eve bore Seth. The question is where did so many people start arriving on the scene. Did Eve conceive one child after another? This is…
creator: Gary
date: 2019-12-31T15:08:18-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: Mark We start seeing more and more people in the narrative. Then the scriptures tells us Eve bore Seth. The question is where did so many people start arriving on the scene. Did Eve conceive one child after another? This is what I mean that there are gaps and that we do not have all the information. Next there is giants, sons of God, etc. Did Eve have children who grew to be giants? Before I get started I was not thinking correctly here. Eve was the mother of all living. I was thinking in the back of my mind that maybe the Lord had created other people outside of Adam and Eve in the garden. All things are possible with God and He can work through Adam and Eve to populate the earth before the flood. Reading on ahead through the Old Testament, we see Noah his wife, and three sons and their wives in scripture, then we can read nations were formed from them after the flood. People multiplied quickly on the earth. The giants I'm thinking came from the sons of God who took wives from women on the earth as the scriptures shows. With that out of the way, I ran across an article that I had never heard before. This article said: The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;[1] Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ maṣḥafa hēnok) is an ancient Hebrew apocalyptic religious text, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah.[2][3] Enoch contains unique material on the origins of demons and giants, why some angels fell from heaven, an explanation of why the Great Flood was morally necessary, and prophetic exposition of the thousand-year reign of the Messiah. While not knowing much about this book, I was wondering how a manuscript could survive the flood. Then I remembered Enoch was the great grandfather of Noah, so its possible that Noah could of had some manuscripts on the Ark. The article mentioned that the original Hebrew manuscript was lost over time, but there was some fragments in with the information of the dead sea scrolls. There are other manuscripts written in another language. Eusebius …
creator: Gary
date: 2020-01-14T13:41:04-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: Quote: They were shown to be on the earth, clear up to the time of Saul and David. Any rate just wanted to share some thoughts on it, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I just enjoy discussing the Bible. There are accounts of giants all the way up to our day--Skeletons, etc.. Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2020-01-14T19:12:51-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: I don't know what standard would be used to determine if someone is a giant, I would think not only height but also bulk. There are several basketball players in our time over 7 feet 5 inches, but are on the slender side. The guy Guinness BWR lists as tallest in modern times , Robert Wadlow, was 8 feet 11 inches, but skinny. I think of a giant as a Goliath type, big and intimidating.
creator: james
date: 2020-01-14T19:41:50-00:00

Re: Where did . . .
type: item
description: william wrote on Tue, 14 January 2020 19:12 Quote: They were shown to be on the earth, clear up to the time of Saul and David. Any rate just wanted to share some thoughts on it, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I just enjoy discussing the Bible. There are accounts of giants all the way up to our day--Skeletons, etc.. Blessings, William Yeah, most of them play Basketball for a living . Actually everybody is making a good point here. I was reading the Old Testament and in Exodus 37 Then Bezalel made the ark of acacia wood; two and a half cubits was its length, a cubit and a half its width, and a cubit and a half its height. 2 He overlaid it with pure gold inside and outside, and made a molding of gold all around it. 3 And he cast for it four rings of gold to be set in its four corners: two rings on one side, and two rings on the other side of it. 4 He made poles of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold. 5 And he put the poles into the rings at the sides of the ark, to bear the ark. 6 He also made the mercy seat of pure gold; two and a half cubits was its length and a cubit and a half its width. Bear with me I'll get to the point here. I was reading about the ark in Exodus, so I tried to picture in my mind the size of it in feet and inches. Being a carpenter most of my life if I can visualize the measurements on a project I can get a better idea of its size. You'll probably appreciate this William being a woodworker. I went to try and find out how much a Cubit was so I could see the size of the Ark, again in feet and inches. Everybody had a different opinion on this measurement. One guy said, it was 20.4 inches and that is what Noah used, and that when Noah got off the boat he was the only one in the New world that would know the true measurement. How he came up with this I don't know. If Noah used 20.4. The article went on to say that people measured from their elbow to the tip of their finger to come up with this unit of measure. Then Noah must of been …
creator: Gary
date: 2020-01-15T13:20:01-00:00

How did the devil sin?
type: item
description: How did the devil sin? Ezek. 28/11-19 Isaiah 14/ 12-15 It is Satan being referred to in both places. It mentions several times he was created not born. So it isn't referring to the actual person mentioned. Apparently his original name was Lucifer son of the morning. The name Satan is just a Hebrew word that means adversary. It is referring to him personally when used with the definite article "The" Adversary Ezek. 28 He held an exalted position among the Cherubim. The "anointed" Cherub that "covered" "walked up and down" freedom of movement. Very unusual. In a special place. "stones of fire" "perfect in beauty" the most beautiful personality that had ever existed. I think the jewels and gems mentioned are earthly representations of spiritual realities. The same with tabrets and pipes. All were some kind of covering over him. The reference to tabrets and pipes probably refer to music of some kind. Maybe among other responsibilities he was in charge of the worship. Although I think that is a very shallow and superficial way of looking at something that was probably very deep. His influence and awareness and maybe his work must have extended over all the realm where Gods throne was. And probably to some degree over all the realms of heaven. He must have been a highly exalted personality. But as I show later he wasn't the highest. How did the devil sin? There was a time in Heaven when it was good times and love and glory. Everyone loved the Lord. He was seen as great and glorious but also in a sense as a kindly old man. He was God and everyone worshiped him. All peaceful and enjoyable. Nothing to mar the absolute peacefulness and perfection of heaven. There was no awareness of sin or evil. Nor of good. They were innocent. So how did he sin? I think it started with a very small uncomfortable feeling deep in his heart. He was aware of his great beauty. But the feeling was he should take a closer look at it. (his beauty) He didn't really understand this feeling. Or even re…
creator: Mark L
date: 2025-11-21T18:17:56-00:00

Re: How did the devil sin?
type: item
description: Thanks for giving us something to think about, today. I'd never considered that he (Satan) wasn't the highest of the created order... got to go back and reframe that one! Blessings, William
creator: william
date: 2025-11-21T19:11:25-00:00